0:00

Man. You know, uh in

0:03

nine have been big years for

0:06

cults in in the

0:08

modern media landscape. But

0:11

we were we were diving into this

0:13

stuff back in what oh

0:16

yeah, way before the cult renaissance that

0:18

we're in the midst of right now, well at least.

0:20

Yeah, It's like Ben said in the Spotlight

0:23

before Nextium was a big deal.

0:26

Um. I hesitate to say

0:28

the S word, but that was around and we

0:30

were talking about it too. Um, you're you're

0:32

gonna find a lot of stuff that

0:34

you didn't know in this episode, and stuff

0:37

that they these particular cults probably

0:39

don't want you to know. Oh definitely.

0:41

Yeah, that's why we call this classic episode

0:43

colts you've never heard of? You know, hear versions

0:46

of us uh, navigating the difference

0:48

between a cult and a religion and some

0:50

of the strangest cults in history,

0:53

along with secret cults of what

0:55

was the modern day, from

0:58

UFOs to ghosts and government cover ups.

1:01

History is writtled with unexplained events.

1:04

You can turn back now or learn the

1:06

stuff they don't want you to now. Welcome

1:14

back to the show. My name is Matt and I'm

1:16

Ben, and this is stuff they don't want

1:18

you to know. As though you didn't hear that in the title

1:20

earlier, but that's okay. We just want to

1:22

make sure you know where you are, because you know, it gets tough

1:24

sometimes people get confused.

1:27

Where am I? What am I? Where

1:29

are we going in life? I know it's confusing,

1:32

right, There are a lot of questions and people

1:35

there's no shortage of people pretending to answer

1:37

those questions, some of whom even

1:40

believe it. And it's funny that we're talking

1:42

about this. Let's let's jump right

1:44

in. One of the great differences

1:47

between human beings and

1:50

other animals is that

1:52

human beings, unique among

1:55

all highly intelligent animals,

1:57

seem to have this compole

2:00

shan to um

2:02

find out more about

2:05

life, to ask what happens when

2:07

we die? Now, we have seen

2:09

evidence, of course, that higher order

2:11

animals are able to um

2:15

acknowledge death in some form.

2:17

If a member of their pure groups dies. You'll

2:19

see elephants that more and they're dead. There

2:22

are also there have been instances of dolphins

2:24

that carry their dead babies long

2:27

distances in the water. Yeah, and

2:29

and I think that's the next some point because it shows it's

2:31

not just primates, it's also citaceans.

2:34

We also know that UH.

2:37

Many mammals have some sort of

2:39

understanding of that loss. Dogs

2:42

famously, UH have can

2:44

have difficulties when a human that they have bonded

2:46

with has passed away. But according

2:48

to current science, there's one thing that

2:52

only humans can do. Dolphins can't

2:54

do it, elephants, dogs, even

2:57

crows which are scary smart uh.

2:59

And that is contemplate

3:02

and afterlife a a entirely

3:05

abstract world, whether

3:08

dystopian or utopian, that

3:10

exists beyond the mortal plane. And

3:13

that is why UM.

3:16

One of human beings. One

3:19

of humanity's greatest either

3:21

discoveries or inventions, depending on how

3:23

you look at it, is the idea of religion.

3:25

Right. And we haven't officially as

3:27

humans nailed down what what exactly

3:29

happens yet at least we haven't scientifically

3:31

proven what happens. So there

3:34

really any any idea if

3:37

it strikes personally with you, could

3:39

be persuasive enough for you to believe it.

3:42

Yeah, and we mean literally any

3:45

idea, because in

3:47

the absence of universally

3:51

agreed quantitative not

3:53

qualitative proof of

3:55

of a life after death, UM,

3:58

people's opinions can be just up

4:01

for up for anything. No one

4:03

can really disprove a lot of

4:06

this stuff, but we also know

4:08

that for a great deal of

4:11

human history, this

4:14

these beliefs, which we will call

4:16

religions for most of this podcast,

4:18

these beliefs, spiritual beliefs, religious

4:20

beliefs guided the course

4:23

of human civilization. Yeah,

4:25

sure, what Why Why

4:27

would humans come together and live

4:30

as a society? Um?

4:32

If there wasn't some kind of agreed upon reason

4:35

to be doing so other

4:38

than procreation and

4:40

the gathering of food. Um.

4:43

It seems as though we've been getting

4:45

a lot of people commenting on our on

4:47

our video, especially the one we made about how to start

4:49

a cult, about how society as a

4:51

whole possibly was, or

4:53

quite frankly most likely

4:56

was kind of the or originated

4:59

as some kind of of cults. Sure

5:02

hunting party, uh. Layer

5:05

begins to acrete spiritual beliefs,

5:07

and that could even have happened before Homo

5:09

sapiens. Um. This is this

5:11

is a scary thing for some people, especially

5:15

if you consider yourself more

5:17

of an atheist or on the atheist side of the

5:19

spiritual spectrum. We know that

5:22

early non Homo sapiens,

5:25

early man, like the

5:27

the demo recording of Man, basically

5:30

had before the full album came out, Um

5:32

already had some beliefs like venerating

5:35

the dead, um

5:38

performing some sort of ritualistic

5:40

burial or commemoration. Now,

5:43

because that stuff happens

5:45

before the dawn of recorded

5:47

history, we don't really

5:49

know how to uh

5:51

find the specifics of whatever their spiritual

5:54

beliefs were. Um, we've

5:56

got a lot of smart people making

5:58

a lot of smart guests is and

6:01

the reason that we're talking now about

6:03

the this ancient history and the fundamental

6:06

importance and unique ability

6:09

that we call spiritual exploration. Um,

6:12

it's all because you and I

6:14

recently did a series

6:16

on cults. We did and we

6:19

found so much stuff

6:22

it got kind of dark to write, dark

6:25

editing editing together that and

6:28

the current case episode was a

6:30

harrowing experience, to say the least.

6:32

And you did a fantastic job on

6:34

that episode too. If there's anybody who happens

6:36

to have not seen that, I think the title

6:39

of it is uh

6:41

child impersonation or cults

6:44

child impersonation in the Czech Republic, and

6:47

it is entirely about a

6:50

very strange cult sometimes

6:52

called the ants. And the

6:54

way that we like to do this stuff in these audio

6:56

podcasts so far as we like to be able to

6:58

give a little bit more back ground in context

7:01

that we weren't able to originally

7:04

in the video just because of the length of time

7:06

or because of the tone. Um

7:09

So, in this podcast, what you and

7:11

I are going to explore is the

7:14

nature of cults. What what

7:16

makes something a cult? How is a cult any

7:19

different from a religion? And

7:21

um some great points that listeners

7:24

brought up in the YouTube comments, Uh,

7:27

is it possible for things that are not

7:30

spiritual on the on the

7:32

surface to also be cults? Which

7:34

I think is a great question. Um So,

7:37

if you if you'll mind, man, I've got a little

7:39

bit of a definition. Alright.

7:42

So we know that the concept

7:45

of occult um, at

7:47

least in academia, dates back to about

7:49

nineteen thirty two. A sociologist

7:51

named Howard P. Becker uh

7:54

said that, but he based it as

7:56

sort of an expansion of an earlier

7:59

guy's work, guy named Ernst Trolts.

8:03

Yes, I don't know if I made it

8:05

out of that one alive t R O. E.

8:08

L. T. S. C. H. Trols

8:12

and uh Trolch had

8:14

this typology where he

8:16

was separated. He was trying to

8:18

separate um church

8:21

versus sect, and Becker

8:24

originally said that occult was

8:27

a small religious group, lacking organization

8:30

and emphasizing the private nature of personal

8:32

beliefs. Now we know that is not

8:34

the modern definition of a cult um.

8:38

The modern definition of occult

8:40

is um outside of it

8:42

exists outside of a predominant religion,

8:45

right, and it has uh some

8:48

notable differences in

8:50

comparison to what we call religion proper.

8:52

Now we know that there are these

8:54

other things called sects. And

8:57

I said that, so I don't accidently say, you know, sex

9:00

but s E C T s.

9:03

Uh. These are the products of

9:06

religious disagreements. So

9:08

they still have many of the same beliefs

9:11

and uh structures,

9:14

They just they diverge in

9:16

the particulars they've had a schism

9:18

at some point because of maybe something. Um.

9:21

What are some of the examples of that? UH.

9:24

Great one would be Martin Luther UM

9:27

saying that people

9:30

could correspond directly

9:32

with the divine rather than going

9:35

through any intermediary like

9:37

some a member of the Catholic Church. Another

9:40

earlier example would be

9:42

UM. When Christianity

9:46

began and people who

9:48

traditionally followed Judaism UH

9:51

said that they believed

9:54

that Jesus Christ was a

9:57

divine, a messenger of the divine, So

10:00

this became in a way,

10:03

it's still carried a lot

10:05

of the traditional beliefs, at least for a time,

10:07

associated with the earlier

10:09

belief system, but a cult can

10:13

take some of that and does something totally

10:15

new or or it

10:17

will be based upon at

10:20

least a lot of the ones that we found. We are based

10:22

on some kind of writing, some kind of document

10:25

that kind of that they take in as their

10:27

manifesto of sorts as

10:29

they're kind of their brick and mortar structure

10:31

for what how they're going to base their beliefs

10:33

upon, and then they kind of make some changes

10:36

here and there. But um, it's pretty

10:38

fascinating stuff. The one

10:40

the Holy Grail movement was really

10:43

was interesting. The one that was that we talked about in

10:45

that Ferme case episode where

10:47

it's it's about the Holy Grail. The entire

10:50

thing is based upon this guy's

10:52

book from I think nineties seven

10:55

around that the German Fellow.

10:57

Forget his name, but if you get it

11:00

ants search the Grail movement. It's

11:02

very interesting. Yeah, and that's a that's

11:04

a good illustration of how I would

11:06

say that, Um, the

11:09

Grail Movement doesn't seem

11:11

to be as much of a cult, but I don't have too much

11:13

information about it. Yeah, sorry,

11:16

Yeah, more of a sect. And I think

11:18

that's what you're saying, because the ants in

11:21

that currum Case episode are

11:23

the cults that broke off. And

11:26

as as we know, and as uh thank

11:28

god you pointed out in the video, the

11:31

Grail movement is not related. Disowned

11:33

disowned them completely. Uh successfully

11:36

sued uh some check

11:38

newspaper right by the way for

11:42

implying that they were supporting it. Um,

11:44

all right, we also know that, uh,

11:48

from everything you guys are hearing us say,

11:50

the exact definition or difference

11:52

between the cult and religion is a

11:55

matter of great debate. You

11:57

will run into people who tell you that the

11:59

Baptist which is a cult. You will meet people

12:01

who assure you that Mormonism

12:04

as a cult. You know what I mean? Um,

12:06

And all our scientology

12:09

based listeners or scientology

12:11

focused listeners will want to hear

12:13

us talk about the idea of whether scientology

12:16

is a religion, a cult, or none of the above,

12:19

which it has been all three depending on who

12:21

you ask. But we have a little quick

12:23

guide that we found from a cult

12:25

hotline and clinic. That will help

12:27

us differentiate a little bit, right,

12:30

Yeah, sure, what why don't you tell us what

12:32

what a cult is? And then I will

12:35

say what a what a religion

12:37

it, or can at least from this list. Okay,

12:39

So like what a cult would do versus what religion

12:41

would do. Okay, Um, let's start

12:43

with your end. That's a great idea. You start

12:45

with the religion will provide the cult alternative.

12:48

Okay. When you're getting information from

12:50

a religion, it's generally offered up

12:53

right up front. It's given to you as hey, read

12:55

about this, let us know if you're interested. And

12:57

when you're in a cult or cult like organization,

13:00

there's deceit in recruitment, so

13:03

we're not giving you either all of

13:05

the information or the actual truth.

13:09

In a religion, um,

13:11

generally freedom of thought is

13:13

offered up and members have a say

13:15

in what goes on. A lot of times not in

13:18

occult we are totalitarian,

13:20

my way or the highway to hell.

13:23

Generally, religions will promote a

13:26

family, a family unit of some sort.

13:28

Um. Usually it will

13:31

have very rigid structures of what that family unit

13:33

unit can or cannot be, but they still

13:35

promote a family unit, destroy

13:38

the family unit in your cult, the only

13:40

unit is the cult. I'm

13:44

getting a little dramatic, so I and feeling I've had

13:46

a lot of coffee. Religions

13:48

tend to work within a society, so they'll

13:50

go out and do work inside

13:52

a community. UM, do some volunteering

13:55

or donation. Okay, cool,

13:57

So like you could have your own life

14:00

in larger society in a

14:02

religion, not an occult isolate

14:05

the members, no outsiders.

14:07

One of us. Religion

14:09

is generally open to the community. So

14:12

it will it will bring, it will take anyone

14:14

who comes in who is interested. Um,

14:17

and it just has

14:19

open arms, let's say, right, Which

14:21

is why, for instance, at least

14:23

in the United States, you

14:26

can generally, as long as you are respectful

14:29

of the of the traditions, you can

14:31

generally in attend any

14:34

church, mosque, synagogue, Christian

14:37

reading room, or what have you. Um,

14:39

a Hindu or Buddhist temple, um,

14:42

as long as you're not a jerk about it. But not

14:44

in cults. You've got to keep those

14:47

nonbelievers out until they've been carefully vetted,

14:49

because they might come up the works. They might come up

14:51

the works. A religion is

14:54

interested in promoting potential

14:57

Now what does that mean, ben, If it's promoting

14:59

potential, so it wants you to

15:01

grow individually, yes,

15:04

and and because it wants to see

15:07

the entire religion grow, but it also wants to see

15:09

the community grow. Well, you know that's

15:11

really taking away from the development

15:13

of the cult, which is the primary focus

15:16

of a cult. And that's why a cult will limit the development

15:18

of an individual, destroy

15:21

the ego, as they would say. So

15:24

in a religion, while there are guidelines,

15:26

members are not systematically

15:29

controlled, they're not individually controlled.

15:31

M okay. So um.

15:34

You know certain days might be meatless,

15:36

or certain holidays have requirements

15:38

you need to participate in, but you

15:41

are allowed to have a mind of

15:43

your own. Yes, not a cult where

15:46

mind control techniques are prevalent

15:48

and and practiced. Often in

15:51

religion, it's generally

15:53

promoted that you should really think hard

15:55

about your decision to take a commitment

15:58

in this religion, well, to be saved

16:00

or blessed in some way, or

16:03

take a right of passage in this religion.

16:06

They really want you to contemplate it, think about

16:08

it, make sure it's the right decision for you.

16:10

Oh right? Like how um? Quite a few

16:12

religions require you to have a

16:14

certain period of study before

16:16

you can, you know, like if you convert

16:19

to a religion, um. Not in cults,

16:21

man, that's a good news. Uh. Commitment

16:23

is encouraged during the recruitment process.

16:26

So you want to learn more, come

16:29

on, just join, Just join and we'll tell you.

16:31

Just give us one more payment and

16:33

then you can learn a little bit more and you'll be

16:35

committed. Okay, Now this one

16:37

I might I'm have a little bit of contention

16:40

with. But on our list it says that

16:42

in a religion, people are free to speak out

16:44

against the tenets of a religion. Um.

16:47

And I I mean

16:49

that's true to a point, to a point.

16:52

But if you're inside the religion, you

16:55

may have some more problems there which

16:57

might lead to say a schism and

17:00

offshoot and perhaps a cult. Ah.

17:02

Yes. And in a cult, the

17:05

any any criticism is often

17:07

met with very

17:09

serious threats. So these could be legal

17:11

action, these could be uh

17:15

you know, isolation even further from

17:17

your new cult family. Uh,

17:19

physical punishments even Um,

17:22

it can be very messy, very quickly.

17:25

I have another point of contention here in

17:27

this list, but that's okay. Yeah. In

17:29

a religion, clergy are expected

17:31

generally to be responsible for their words

17:33

and actions. That sounds

17:36

nice, that's like a theoretically yeah, it sounds

17:38

very nice. As we have seen with certain

17:41

massive institutions that may or

17:43

may not be true. Right, And

17:45

in a cult, the leader and

17:48

the followers consider the leader to

17:50

be above reproach, cannot be

17:52

criticized. So what

17:54

what are some great examples of this? While

17:57

we know that Manson or Jim Jones

17:59

would never have been criticized by a member their cult,

18:02

we know that UM for a

18:04

time, Uh Kim jong

18:07

il was not um

18:10

legally not be able to be criticized. There's

18:12

a there's a weird argument here, which

18:14

is different. I'm not saying that North Korea

18:16

is a cult country, UM, anymore

18:19

than I'm saying that Thailand is a cult country.

18:22

But there's a there's a monarchical

18:25

fallacy here because in

18:27

Middle Eastern countries and in Thailand,

18:30

UM, any sort of criticism

18:32

of the royal family can

18:35

can get you in prison very

18:38

quickly at the very least. UM.

18:40

So that's kind of cultish, which goes

18:42

to another thing. Questioning the leader

18:45

or the basic outline of the cult is

18:47

never allowed. So if you

18:49

you know, if you say, hey, guys, even if it's something

18:52

as small as Hey, guys, I

18:54

really like our eight hour brainwashing

18:57

sessions. But I was thinking maybe

18:59

we could use a CD instead of a VHS

19:02

tape so we don't have to keep stopping to rewind it.

19:04

Um, then you would get in a lot of

19:06

trouble, it would seem so yeah.

19:09

Uh. So, now that we know some of the

19:11

differences between a cult and

19:14

a religion, will talk a little

19:16

bit about some of the history, which I

19:18

think is fascinating here. Um.

19:21

Something from the Baltimore Sun, uh

19:23

that we mentioned a little bit before

19:26

is that, um,

19:29

something can change from a cult to a religion

19:31

over time, right. Oh yeah,

19:33

and again it can splinter the

19:36

opposite way as well. So early

19:38

Christianity, when it was first

19:41

originating, it was considered a cult

19:44

because you had, you know, you had

19:46

certain groups of people, like

19:49

you said, who are from uh, who

19:51

were Jewish or Roman

19:54

at the time. Um, who

19:56

then started following this one guy in this one

19:58

guy's message. And you

20:00

know, it's an interesting

20:02

comparison. I'd like to I haven't read much

20:05

up on this, but I'd like to see someone's argument

20:08

for Jesus as a cult leader.

20:10

I'd be fascinated to read that just

20:12

if you looked and I don I'm not saying that he was,

20:15

but just it would be an interesting angle

20:18

to look at it. Because they have a

20:21

um uh theology

20:23

that did a couple of things. They said, this,

20:26

uh, this current status status

20:28

quo is um

20:31

not the way that humans are supposed

20:33

to be. So it's kind of heretical,

20:36

and it confuses some

20:38

of the earlier religions, the Jewish religion

20:41

and the Roman religion at the time, where

20:44

some of the predominant belief structures, and

20:47

while borrowing heavily

20:49

from a lot of those from

20:52

Roman society, from Jewish tradition. Uh,

20:54

Christianity itself was something that

20:57

was novel and and of course

21:00

Islam was also considered

21:03

a cult by medieval Christians

21:05

much later, who would have never um

21:09

called their religion occult. But the

21:11

new guy on the street was

21:14

was the same thing. And it's because some of the same stuff.

21:16

You know, Islam has

21:19

Jesus as the most quoted prophet

21:21

in the Quran uh and the

21:24

there there's so much commonality

21:26

in the Abramatic religions. But

21:29

still they called it a cult. So

21:31

this leads, uh, this leads to

21:34

an interesting idea. What if

21:36

the only real difference between a cult

21:39

and a religion is the length of

21:41

time that a spiritual organization

21:43

is active. I think that's a great point. That's

21:46

an absolutely great point, because as soon as the new

21:48

guy comes along, that's weird

21:50

and different, that's a cult. And there's

21:52

there's a great argument here that we

21:54

broke down from this article in the sun and

21:57

uh there there are a couple of reasons why

22:00

this is a is kind of a good metric

22:02

or I don't know, what do you think is a fair

22:04

amount of time to transition? Well,

22:08

it needs to be one where

22:10

a child can grow up inside

22:13

this belief structure. Okay, long

22:15

enough to be old enough as

22:17

old at least as the parent was

22:19

to and reproduce it and then and then continue

22:22

right, so that so that person

22:24

would have to Yeah, they're reproduction

22:27

would be necessary. You can't just bring people

22:29

in. It's like one

22:31

so three generations total, maybe,

22:33

yeah, that would be about right. So of

22:36

what's that a hundred years are a little less, a little

22:38

more, a little more maybe? Yeah? Um,

22:40

well, I guess depends on when they have kids, right when

22:43

they die? Um? Okay, that all

22:45

right? I think that's very smart. And it

22:47

has to function a couple of ways

22:49

because already there will be people asking

22:52

us the writing emails, asking

22:55

uh, well, what about a cult that functions

22:57

in secret for hundreds

22:59

of years. That's a little bit different. We're talking about

23:01

things that function in the open

23:04

um. So one of the most one

23:06

of the biggest points is a group that has

23:08

survived over generations cannot

23:11

have the sort of self destructive or antisocial

23:14

behavior that occurs in cults,

23:16

at least not openly. Right. You can't

23:18

kill your breeding population. You can't

23:20

render them uh sterile

23:23

one way or the other. Um. So, also

23:25

can't kill a lot of them as suicide,

23:28

right, yeah, no mass suicide.

23:31

Also, it has

23:33

to it has to play nice

23:35

with the current whomever the current government

23:38

or state is. So that means

23:40

that you can't break laws

23:42

like abuse laws, um, which

23:45

is one way that groups

23:47

are who later turned out to be cults

23:49

are often caught you know, um.

23:51

And it could be some dark stuff. It could be domestic

23:53

abuse, it could be um fraud,

23:56

you know, taking making your followers

23:58

give up their financial assets to you,

24:01

or of course in some cases it can be

24:03

sexual abuse. It's a that's a great point

24:05

about functioning inside the society and not

24:07

making the rulers of the land you occupy

24:10

angry at you so, And I

24:13

think that has a lot to do with morality and why

24:15

religion and religious beliefs. Uh,

24:18

the morality of a people is often

24:20

ascribed to that. Ah, that's

24:22

such a good point. Yeah, it's such a good point

24:24

because, um, one thing that

24:27

it seems religions tend to do is

24:31

over time have a morality

24:33

which is is

24:35

sort of a mirror of the society in which

24:38

they operate, or is

24:40

tolerated by that society. Sure so,

24:43

um, you know, so occult that argue

24:46

something like people

24:48

who are not in our religion are not really

24:51

human. Um, then that

24:54

is not gonna That morality is not going to jibe

24:56

when the authorities always be under suspicion.

24:59

But if you have, um,

25:01

a moral argument which is something like,

25:05

uh, people should try to be good, which

25:07

is when you boil it down, that's

25:10

that's one of the most basic

25:12

tenants of any

25:14

sort of spiritual belief structure. And

25:17

for thousands of years people have just been fighting

25:19

over the definitions of good and

25:21

people. And UM, it's

25:23

sad to say, I hope that uh,

25:26

the the aliens land. They're not just disgusted

25:28

with us on that point, but yeah,

25:31

pretty sure they will be. But

25:34

but then another thing they can uh to

25:36

the point about kids. Uh, these cults

25:38

are excuse me, religions will also

25:40

grow institutions, so they'll

25:43

have um, nonprofit organizations,

25:46

they'll take care of the sick and the

25:48

elderly and the dispossessed. They'll

25:51

have systems to educate

25:53

others, to basically

25:56

bring people up in these beliefs. So

25:58

that again, that's the thing we're talking about

26:00

earlier. You can't let it die, so you have to make

26:02

sure the young people get the

26:04

message and then continue forward. And

26:08

this sounds like a recipe for

26:10

something that's not just able

26:13

to survive in in a community

26:15

where not everyone has that religion, but it sounds

26:18

like people of this religion

26:20

or obeying these kind of approaches could

26:22

become really valuable to the

26:24

larger society. You know what,

26:27

what are we talking We're talking about stable,

26:29

generation spanning, self

26:32

sustaining organization that

26:34

wants to help people. Um.

26:37

It sounds like a great thing. Sounds like a great thing,

26:39

and sometimes in history it has been of

26:42

course part of being one

26:44

of the guiding principles of human history

26:47

means that there is a lot of stuff on

26:49

both the pro and the con side. Millions

26:51

of people have been saved by various religions,

26:53

and millions upon millions have been

26:56

murdered, no other way around it. Um,

26:59

all right, but it's time

27:01

now to talk about some cults.

27:03

We've talked about the difference we can cults from religions,

27:06

and now it's time to talking about cults. But before

27:08

we do, it's time for word from our sponsor.

27:11

Right. Oh yeah, I always forget that

27:13

we have these great sponsors. Thank

27:15

you so much for helping us make this show.

27:17

Guys, Yeah, we really appreciate it.

27:23

Are you tired of going from Walmart

27:26

to Target and back looking for the

27:28

perfect robes? It's hard to

27:30

find a code of sufficient length to really

27:32

give you the gravitas that you're looking for

27:35

when you're on that stage or pulpit

27:37

talking to your flock and the secular,

27:40

soulless husk of uninitiated

27:42

flesh that are currently running the world

27:44

economy into the ground. Don't

27:47

understand the value of a good sigil,

27:49

talisman or crucifix. But

27:51

never fear, because there's finally an answer

27:54

for cult leaders just like you. That's

27:56

right, buck thunder Tumbles Worldwide

27:59

Robe and Sigil Emporium, come

28:01

on down to find the latest innovations

28:04

in mind cleansing crystals,

28:06

in past life regression technology,

28:09

and mind control. Are

28:13

your followers seeming a little bit too

28:15

ordery? Are those pesky egos

28:18

resurfacing at the strangest times?

28:20

Well, then why not try the mind muzzle

28:23

uh fresh here at buck thunder Tumbles

28:25

Emporium. Those blood rituals

28:27

can get really messy sometimes when it splashes

28:30

off on your robe and you get those small stains,

28:32

your flock will notice. We'll bring your soiled

28:35

robes and talismans and sigils and anything

28:37

else that may have a little blood stain on it.

28:39

Come on down to buck thunder Tumbles Robe

28:42

and Sigil Emporium and we'll wash all of

28:44

those blood stains out. We'll also wash

28:46

out any other nasty stains

28:48

on your brilliant robes of magnificence.

28:51

We exect payment in cash cards,

28:53

children, religious icons,

28:56

other robes, rival cult

28:58

leaders, and of course human and hair

29:03

bluck. Flunder Tumbles, Rope and Sigil Imporium is not legally

29:06

responsible for any of the following Waco style massacres,

29:08

cult indoctrination, resurfacing of egos, rope, chafing,

29:10

sandal, chafing sigil, poison, blood, poison, roll I

29:12

wiggle, arm, snake, candle, echialalia, relation break

29:14

dancing, spontaneous disco writes, a passage, te filing,

29:17

Double Winks, Triple Winks Go to Speak, Dark Miracles paid

29:19

for by Friends of Buck thunder Tumbles, Rope and Central and Porium, a division

29:21

of Illumination Global Limited. All

29:27

right, well that was um,

29:29

that was interesting. Yeah, I can't pick our

29:31

sponsors. I guess. Oh

29:33

yeah, we should also say, um,

29:35

I don't know if they put it in the ad, but I

29:38

think we're If you mention us, you get

29:40

like an eight percent discount. Yeah.

29:45

If it's a Tuesday, it was something weird.

29:49

They have a weird they have a different calendar. Uh

29:52

So, now it's time to talk about

29:54

some out and out cults, things

29:56

that are universally called cults

29:59

by everybody except for the people in there. All

30:01

right, well, let's get started. This

30:04

is one that we found that's

30:07

m hmm, a little weird.

30:09

Let's just go into it. It's called the Creativity

30:12

Movement, formerly the World Church

30:14

of the Creator. Now, this

30:17

is a white separatist organization

30:20

and it advocates

30:22

the whites only religion creativity.

30:25

Wait wait wait wait, the name of the this

30:27

basist religion is creativity.

30:30

Yes, that is like the most uncreative

30:32

name, but it's

30:35

but it's also so universal, although

30:38

it's not at all universal. It's

30:40

whites only. Um, So it

30:42

was. It was also kind of a descriptive phrase

30:44

that was used by uh, this guy named Ben

30:46

Clawson. I think that's how you say it. It's like one

30:49

of the leaders, I guess, yes, and uh,

30:52

it included all adherents of the religion. And

30:54

basically the use of the term creator does not

30:57

it doesn't refer to any kind of deity.

30:59

So there's no God. No, it's to you. It's

31:02

to the person, uh, the

31:04

self and

31:07

white people's um.

31:09

But anyway, despite the former use of the word

31:12

of church and its name, the movement is

31:14

definitely atheistic. There's no

31:16

belief in god. Huh. Okay. Now this

31:18

is the one that started in three

31:21

but the founder, Ben Klausen, died

31:24

right in yes,

31:27

yeah, okay, so you only had twenty

31:29

years there to run the thing. And

31:31

it's so it's so strange

31:33

to me. Then the you

31:35

know, we're going to find, of course that there

31:38

that racism um

31:40

is prevalent in a lot of fringe cults.

31:43

Um. You know, racist organization

31:45

doesn't necessarily consider itself

31:48

also a spiritual organization. But

31:50

a lot of spiritual groups have no problem

31:53

with racism and in fact feel

31:55

very justified about it. And

31:58

you know, sadly, although

32:00

people might like to think this is a

32:02

new, newer kind of belief,

32:05

that's more and more in the fringes, It's

32:07

been around since religions. Racism

32:09

and religion have been uh thick

32:12

as thieves for a lot of

32:14

human history. UM.

32:16

I want to talk about one that I really like, the

32:19

Prince Philip movement or

32:22

a cargo cult. Now,

32:24

this is something that chuck from

32:27

stuff. You should know and I are both

32:29

fascinated by. I don't want to see, we're big fans

32:31

of it. So this

32:35

is an island called Tana or

32:37

Tanna and Vanuatu or Vanatu

32:40

and this and this uh vanuattu

32:43

is, aside from being something that will

32:45

mispronounce regularly, uh,

32:47

this is a small island nation

32:50

and during the

32:54

sometime probably in the fifties or sixties,

32:57

having received air drops

33:00

from planes that were flying over the

33:02

islanders who were rural began what

33:05

was called a cargo cult. So

33:08

they believe, at least as one try Bontana

33:10

believes that Prince Philip is

33:13

a divine creature. You

33:15

mean the Duke of Edinburgh, Yes, the

33:17

Duke of Edinburgh. Uh, and

33:20

is the son of a

33:22

son and brother. So it's incestuous,

33:24

which is okay if you're if you're a deity. Um

33:27

the son and brother of the

33:29

legendary John from

33:31

Now. I think have we talked about cargo

33:34

cults on the show before. We've mentioned

33:36

it a couple of times. We did the Sentinel Island.

33:38

That's right, Yeah, so you

33:42

can learn some amazing stuff about

33:44

this. Uh. The

33:47

the Royal couple didn't help at

33:49

all because in nineteen seventy four

33:51

they visited the island, which

33:54

I just think is um

33:56

elitist and kind

33:59

of not cool. I guess you could say it's diplomacy,

34:01

but I think it's tremendously condescending on

34:04

the part of the Duke

34:06

of Edinburgh. But the but

34:09

I think maybe his intentions are good because

34:11

he was made when he found out about this religion.

34:14

He's visited and exchanged gifts

34:17

with the leaders. Now, this cargo

34:19

when it was originally dropped, not to go too

34:21

far into the story, was was amazing.

34:24

And after learning of

34:26

the uh, learning more about John

34:29

From and the West, the mystical

34:31

understanding these people have, which was

34:34

often exploited or presented

34:36

with ridicule um resulted

34:38

in them building like fake in a

34:40

fake airport essentially fake airway,

34:43

um and calling for the return of John

34:45

From for the cargo to bring more

34:47

of these amazing gifts, which

34:50

if you think about it had to be like space age

34:52

may as well be magic. They hadn't seen him

34:54

before, but uh, that

34:56

is that is a story for another

34:59

day. He kind of we get one more.

35:01

Um. So there's something called new

35:03

Abbyonisum. And this

35:06

is something that you pointed out to me that

35:08

I had never heard of. This

35:11

is an umbrella term that refers

35:13

to these doctrines and teachings of

35:15

this guy named Dwight York and

35:18

Uh. It originated as as a

35:20

black Muslim group and I

35:22

think it's in New York right in the nineties seventies.

35:26

But eventually, well I'm

35:28

kind of skipping ahead of here, but eventually I

35:31

found out that they had a headquarters in

35:33

Georgia. Yeah, Putnam County, right,

35:35

Yeah, really interesting where there was

35:37

a pyramid structure and

35:40

it's really fascinating. You can you can search

35:42

for new abby and is that

35:44

what? Just what you would search for New Abbyanism

35:46

and you can find a picture. It's really

35:48

interesting. Yeah. The uh.

35:51

And it's based on a bunch of different things

35:53

that Dwight York encountered in his time,

35:55

like freemasonry, Shriner's

35:58

UM, revisionist, Chris Janity of

36:00

course, Islam uh, A

36:02

couple of other things that would probably be called

36:04

cults uh, some ancient astronaut

36:07

conspiracy theories UM.

36:09

And this pretty

36:12

much was centered just on Dwight

36:14

York by far, this leader alpha male

36:17

of this group UM had some interesting

36:19

beliefs, didn't they. Oh yeah, we've got a We've

36:21

got a list here. You wanna let's go back and forth?

36:23

Okay. Number one, it is

36:25

important to bury the after birth so that

36:27

Satan does not use it to make a duplicate

36:30

of the recently born child. Big problem in

36:32

Putnam, I think, uh. Number

36:34

two, some aborted fetuses survived

36:36

their abortions to live in the sewers, where they would

36:39

be gathered and organized to take over the

36:41

world. People were

36:43

once perfectly symmetrical and embedextrous,

36:46

but then a meteorite struck Earth untilted

36:48

this its axis, causing handedness

36:51

and shifting the heart off center in the chest.

36:54

Here's one of my favorites. Met Each of

36:56

us has seven clones living in different parts

36:58

of the world. Well obviously, I

37:01

mean I don't even know if you're Matt Prime

37:04

or Matt Yeah.

37:08

Uh. Women have existed for many

37:10

generations before they invented men through

37:12

genetic manipulation. Thanks, guys,

37:14

I mean women. Uh. And then there's

37:17

the idea that Homo sapiens modern man

37:19

as a result of cloning experiments done on

37:21

Mars using Homo erectus.

37:24

That's crazy. You know what's crazier.

37:26

What's crazier? Nicola Tesla came from

37:29

Venus? Uh?

37:31

Is that crazy? You know?

37:34

For everybody listening, Matt, just that a mic drop.

37:37

Um. Another one is that the Illuminati

37:39

of nurtured to child, who was the son of Satan,

37:42

born on the sixth of June in ninety

37:45

six at the Dakota House on Second

37:47

seventy two Street in New York, born

37:49

to Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis

37:52

and the Rothchild Kennedy families. The Pope

37:54

was there, he performed necromantic ceremonies.

37:57

Uh. Child was raised by Nixon, lives

38:00

in Europe. Now it's you've

38:03

gotta you've gotta check out d White or to

38:05

see some of the um

38:08

some of the legal trouble the guy has been in and

38:11

he's got numerous sexual abuse

38:13

charges amongst other charges

38:15

of fraud. There is an argument that people

38:17

have had, which is, you know, was he just accused

38:20

of this to prevent his movement

38:23

from becoming self sustaining or a threat to

38:25

his status quo? Uh, well,

38:27

here's here. What if that last story is true

38:29

and it just just going from my invisibles

38:32

mind U imagining some

38:34

of the more crazy things. But what if what

38:37

if that story right there

38:39

is true and it's so

38:42

ridiculous that no one would ever believe it, and

38:45

that one guy knew and he wanted to spread

38:47

the word. I would be surprised

38:49

because there would be a lot more focused and effective

38:52

ways to spread the word about that. But

38:54

you know what, maybe we don't

38:56

know. Maybe the Antichrist really is alive right

38:58

now, hooked to a compu huter called the Beast

39:01

three M.

39:03

I would be terrible and wonderful

39:06

just knowing that it was true. Yeah. Um,

39:09

but here here's our question. Now. Of course,

39:11

since uh York's incarceration,

39:13

quite a few of his followers fell

39:15

by the wayside. He still does have a few,

39:18

and these followers, um

39:20

maintain some of his writings

39:23

and some of his recordings. Um.

39:26

And of course, with the stuff we're saying, you

39:28

know, when we just read that list, we're treating

39:31

it in a lighthearted manner. But let's keep

39:33

in mind that a lot of established

39:35

quote unquote established religions which have been

39:37

around for more than a century have beliefs

39:40

that might sound equally strange when you just

39:42

list them the way that we did. Yeah,

39:44

I'm sorry, I must apologize

39:47

for the way I did that

39:49

list. But whatever, I don't

39:51

even know if this is you or if this is one of your

39:53

seven clones tursh

39:56

sorry church Tertiary,

39:58

well, Tertiary, if I can just

40:00

call you three. Um, we've

40:02

we've reached the point where usually

40:04

in our podcast we talk about where

40:07

to go to learn more. UM. I have

40:09

a little bit of a of a

40:11

of a twist on this. If you're into it, Yeah, I'm

40:14

totally into it. Let's talk about how to

40:16

get somebody help if they're in a cult,

40:18

because we know that this this can

40:20

be a heartbreaking thing, you know, especially

40:23

so a lot of people find themselves

40:25

in a situation where maybe their child

40:28

is just old enough to be uh

40:30

their own legal guardian, but young

40:33

enough or isolated enough that they fall

40:35

into a clearly unsafe

40:38

situation like a cult um.

40:41

So we found a couple of things from some

40:43

cult helplines that we can

40:45

advise you with. One of the first things

40:47

that if you're talking to a loved member who

40:50

is in a cult, be careful not to

40:52

straight up criticize the group or

40:54

the member, because remember that

40:57

if it's a cult, they're going to try to tear down

40:59

this person's ego, which means that they

41:01

have no privacy. They will have

41:03

to say what you said about the

41:06

cult or the leader, and then this

41:08

will likely be used.

41:10

If the leader knows anything that's going on, this will

41:12

likely be used as a reason to cut you off from

41:15

their life, which makes it much harder.

41:18

And you have to keep in mind that this group

41:20

is purposefully trying to isolate this

41:22

person, your loved one, so you

41:24

have to remember to initiate communication

41:26

as much as you possibly can. With them.

41:29

But you have to be really, really careful not

41:31

to be judgmental when you're talking to this person

41:34

Socratic method. Yes, you can't,

41:36

because that will send them directly

41:39

in the opposite direction. Oh,

41:41

another one that's pretty important here. Uh,

41:44

just some housekeeping which applies

41:46

to any organization in my opinion, don't

41:48

give original documents to anyone. No

41:51

original birth certificates, no

41:53

original copies of wills or anything

41:56

like that. And please God,

41:58

no titles, no deeds to any

42:00

physical possession. It will not be

42:02

yours for long. Do not,

42:05

under any circumstances, allow yourself to

42:07

be persuaded by quote

42:09

professionals to spend lots of money

42:12

on some kind of treatment or

42:14

some kind of legal action until you verify

42:16

the credentials of that person, not only

42:19

but also the qualifications that they have for

42:21

handling this problem. Right. Yeah,

42:24

because it's there's there's

42:26

something where it verges into con territory,

42:28

where someone says, well, you have this problem

42:31

that I can solve for you because

42:34

of my v asked knowledge, just like that doctor

42:36

who may or may not have existed in the Kuram

42:39

case. Um. Next, don't feel guilty,

42:41

don't feel alone these this kind

42:43

of stuff is distressingly common,

42:47

and it can it can happen to anybody's

42:49

family. It doesn't mean that your family

42:51

is bad if one of your family

42:54

members is suckered in by occult

42:56

Yeah, it's it's. It is very important

42:58

to remember that there are probably a lot of other people

43:00

going through very

43:03

similar situation, and there are people you

43:05

can talk to. There's UM, you know, there

43:07

is a cult hotline and a cult

43:09

help clinic. There's all kinds of family

43:11

support groups that meet monthly

43:14

usually or sometimes even more frequently.

43:17

Yeah, and you can find you can find some

43:19

help, likely in

43:21

an area relatively

43:24

near to you. The Internet is your friend

43:26

in this regard, especially if you're in like an

43:28

isolated community, which some people might

43:30

be. UM, get

43:32

online, call a helpline. If

43:35

if there's a situation where you feel

43:37

trapped and you think that you are in a cult,

43:40

UM, then you can call

43:43

you. You legally can call nine one

43:45

one and say that you are being held against

43:48

your will. UM. It is a

43:50

crime to hold somebody against their

43:52

will without you know, legal

43:55

steps taken to do so so,

43:57

unless they have power of attorney

43:59

a over you you know, UM,

44:01

which again you should never agree to. UH.

44:04

Then you your best bet,

44:07

although it can be very difficult, is

44:09

to go outside of this group. The

44:11

if if there's somebody who's exploiting

44:13

you an occult um or exploiting

44:16

one of your loved ones, then they're not going to

44:18

give up, which means that you should

44:20

research the group, figure out everything

44:23

about what happens so you can

44:25

know what's going on with this person in your life.

44:28

And then we go to the most important thing to remember,

44:30

right, Matt, do not give

44:33

up. Remember that this person,

44:35

your loved one, is probably a product

44:37

of either your upbringing

44:39

or your friendship. Um, and

44:42

it's really hard to break those bonds. Even

44:45

if if the group has attempted to break

44:47

those bonds, um, there is

44:49

something there that remains, and you have

44:52

you have some sway over this

44:54

person that you love, who probably

44:56

loves you back. So yeah, just you

44:59

know, if you really believe that it's a

45:01

scary, dangerous situation,

45:03

do not give up. And let me add something

45:06

else here, Matt, that I think you and

45:08

I have neglected to mention earlier.

45:10

It's very important just

45:13

because let's say you have a child

45:16

or a friend or a sibling or a

45:18

parent or whatever who believes in something

45:20

that you don't agree with. Just because

45:23

they believe in that does not necessarily

45:25

mean they're in a cult. So you have

45:27

to be very very careful, um

45:30

too, look at

45:32

the organization as well before

45:34

you decide that something's a cult, because I

45:37

think it's it's deceptively easy. It's

45:39

a bit of a slippery slope to start with. Well,

45:41

I don't like it, so let me find things

45:43

to dislike, you know, just like the old Louis

45:45

c k bit where he says, you

45:47

know, if you don't like something, if you don't

45:49

like a person, and everything they do

45:52

makes them seem like a jerk, you know, they

45:54

look at that tool eating

45:56

ice cream. Luis came in

45:59

Insights on the Planet right now. Yeah, he'd probably

46:01

be a pretty good cult D programmer, which we didn't

46:03

even talk about because sometimes it turns

46:05

out that's a scam. Yeah,

46:09

but I think, Matt, now is the time for

46:11

us to finally do some listener mail,

46:13

right Oh yes, and we've got a great

46:15

one. This

46:21

comes from Kellison D and

46:24

just I wanna say here. Kellison says

46:26

that we can talk about or quote any part

46:28

of this email in the email. So cool,

46:31

Kellson, thanks for writing in Kelson

46:34

says, I didn't check the date on the video, so I

46:36

don't know if I'm too late. But at the end of your cult

46:38

video, which I loved, you

46:40

asked about what underground basis you should

46:42

cover in future videos. I

46:45

was raised Mormon, and that's why I loved

46:47

the cult video so much. Interesting

46:51

the Mormons have not secretly by any means,

46:54

and underground vault that supposedly holds

46:56

the largest genealogy library

46:58

in the world. I've never been to it, but I'm

47:00

told that tours are offered maybe they still

47:02

are, and that it's bomb proof

47:05

and they have to take you in a golf cart a mile deep

47:07

into the earth. Granted more specifically, and

47:10

the Mormon's material of choice for though

47:12

the granted is the Mormon's material of choice for

47:14

all edifices. I don't

47:16

know if there's anything fishy here, but it's certainly weird.

47:19

What do you think, then? Uh? You know it

47:21

is true that the Church

47:24

Lauday Saints is a world leader

47:26

in genealogy UM and recordings.

47:29

As far as the

47:31

specific information about the underground

47:34

facility, I know it's there. I wishing

47:36

you more. I would love to check

47:38

it out. UM and it's very

47:40

interesting to read

47:43

this email. What I

47:45

think we should do is start looking

47:47

into this, uh in some more

47:49

detail. I mean, it's it's fascinating.

47:52

I think it's a great idea. Actually,

47:54

if I had the funds to put

47:56

anything deep underground in grant it, if

47:58

that I thought were special, I man, I'd

48:00

do that. Yeah, you put genealogy records,

48:03

I'd put everything down there. You would

48:05

be like an underground bunker hoarder. Oh yeah,

48:07

dude, anything I thought it was important for humanity

48:09

that wasn't perishable going in my grant

48:12

bunker. Alright, well we'll

48:14

build it one brick at a time. Man.

48:16

One more thing. Just want to say thanks again to Kelson

48:19

for writing in and letting us read your

48:21

email. Yeah, man, thank you so much. And

48:23

if for everybody else who's wondering, hey,

48:26

how can I get a shout out on the podcast?

48:28

Which did Kelson asked for that? Kelson

48:30

didn't ask for a shout out, but guess what got

48:33

one? You got one? Oh, I don't know,

48:35

Kellison. I'm really sorry. I don't know. Uh,

48:38

Kellison will write in to correct us. But

48:41

that was a fantastic piece of listener mail.

48:43

We do appreciate your time writing in. You

48:45

can also talk to us.

48:47

We're lousy all over the internet. You can find

48:50

us on Facebook, you can find us on Twitter. We're

48:52

conspiracy stuff at both of those and

48:55

that's the end of this classic episode.

48:57

If you have any thoughts or questions

49:00

about this episode, you can get

49:02

into contact with us in a number of different

49:04

ways. One of the best is to give us a call.

49:06

Our number is one eight three three

49:08

std w y t K. If

49:11

you don't want to do that, you can send us a good

49:13

old fashioned email. We are conspiracy

49:16

at i heart radio dot com.

49:19

Stuff they don't want you to know is a production

49:21

of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts

49:23

from my heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app,

49:25

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your

49:27

favorite shows.