0:00

This is the war on drugs. Yes,

0:02

this is your war. This is your war

0:04

on drugs. This is your brain on the

0:06

war on drugs. And this is our

0:09

classic episode on the

0:11

War on drugs. You could

0:13

you could write a book about this. Many people

0:15

have and some of those books are very good.

0:18

In this episode, we're exploring not just the

0:20

modern idea of the war on drugs, but

0:23

all the precedents that led us to the

0:26

current situation. And uh

0:28

spoiler alert. You know, we don't

0:30

really solve the problem, I think, but we do

0:32

build a case for conspiracy. And

0:35

you know what, there's not much else to say.

0:37

Let's jump right into it. From

0:39

UFOs two ghosts and government cover

0:41

ups, histories writ with unexplained

0:44

events. You can turn back now

0:46

or learn the stuff they don't want me to

0:48

now. Hello,

0:54

and welcome back to the show. My name

0:56

is Matt and I'm Ben not a cop

0:58

Boland and over there

1:01

is Noel Brown. Ladies and gentlemen

1:03

are famous super producer Noel Brown.

1:05

Could we get some sirens

1:07

at the top of your mild? Perfect?

1:13

Oh why why are there

1:15

cops here? Well,

1:17

that's one of the reasons why I said that I am not

1:20

a cop. But I'm not so sure about

1:22

you. Met. Uh, Today, we have

1:24

some sirens and some imaginary

1:26

police officers here to help

1:28

us out with a very sticky,

1:30

controversial subject, ladies

1:33

and gentlemen, the war on drugs. Well,

1:38

let's get right into it. What the heck is it?

1:40

Where did it come from? How did it start? Oh?

1:42

Yeah, okay, So the phrase

1:45

the war on drugs is actually not that old.

1:47

It goes back to nineteen

1:49

seventy one. On June

1:52

the president of the time, Richard Nixon,

1:55

held a press conference, and this was

1:57

the day after he had given a special message

1:59

to the Congress on drug abuse Prevention

2:02

and Control. So during this press

2:04

conference, Matt he says that drug

2:06

abuse is public enemy number

2:09

one, and he says that he's going

2:11

to devote more money to here.

2:14

Here's the first time he was ever said the

2:16

war on drugs. So this phrase

2:18

the war on drugs really just got taken

2:20

up by the media and it was used all

2:23

over the place. Um,

2:25

and the way we think about the war

2:27

on drugs now in at least

2:29

when we're putting this out, is a little

2:31

different than maybe the way it was presented

2:35

at the time. In the

2:37

beginning, it was you know, about trying

2:40

to help people rehabilitate drug

2:42

users. Uh, it was about preventing

2:45

new addicts from getting addicted. Um.

2:48

But that kind of that

2:51

message, let's say, UM

2:53

was kind of put in different places, and we'll go maybe

2:55

go over some of those other organizations,

2:59

but it was focused on

3:02

just the word war focuses

3:05

you on like battle guns,

3:08

like create all kinds of crazy things. At

3:10

least those images are are

3:13

created in your head when you hear that phrase,

3:15

right, Yeah. And it's also a

3:17

war on an idea, which

3:20

is what what drug use. I

3:23

guess you could argue that it's a war on a specific

3:25

thing, but I think it's more a war

3:28

on an activity, which is people

3:30

using drugs. And you make a very interesting

3:33

point about portraying this as

3:35

a war sort of criminalize is that

3:37

people who are addicted, and in other countries

3:39

addiction is often treated like a

3:42

disease. Right. Uh. But

3:45

we know, as you said, that the war

3:48

on drugs has evolved from

3:50

its rehabilitative

3:53

aims that that we're part

3:55

of it. I mean, they always wanted to criminalize

3:57

drugs, but part of it was rehab

4:00

alitation and helping with community

4:02

oriented solutions. But today

4:04

guys, the war on drugs in the United States

4:07

takes an estimated fifty one

4:09

billion with a B dollars

4:12

of the US budget. That's according to the Drug

4:14

Policy Alliance. And for everybody

4:17

who's listening now and saying, you, guys, don't

4:20

be shallow. The war on drugs

4:22

didn't start in the seventies. It goes way

4:25

way back. Well, we know, we

4:27

looked into it. Oh absolutely, Uh.

4:29

The US has always had

4:31

an adversarial relationship

4:33

with drugs because you

4:35

know, we we think of drugs as a

4:37

bad thing, an immoral thing to do,

4:39

at least in the moral

4:42

code of let's say Christianity,

4:45

just as one yeah, as one example,

4:47

um, something you're not supposed to do. So

4:50

the first drug laws actually

4:52

surfaced way back in the eighteen sixties.

4:54

Yeah, those books. Yeah, those were opium

4:57

related, I think, um, and those were

4:59

local as well, right then. The first

5:01

law that restricted drugs on like

5:04

a national level was the Harrison

5:06

Narcotics Act of nineteen fourteen,

5:09

and that was related to again opium,

5:11

was trying to tax opium as well

5:13

as cocaine. Yeah, and at this time

5:16

we see cocaine being illegal

5:19

unless you are an individual or

5:22

a company with a license

5:24

now I have Uh,

5:26

I have no real idea and full

5:28

disclosure, Matt Noel and

5:30

I are not drug dealers,

5:33

nor to my knowledge, drug

5:35

addicts. Well, I got caffeine. I got a caffeine

5:37

monkey. Yeah, I've got several that are currently

5:40

legal. Okay, all right, um,

5:43

but we know that, you

5:46

know, the idea that an individual could

5:48

get a license got to be crazy, Like

5:50

that guy had the best pickup line at the bar, right,

5:52

It's like, oh here, let me

5:55

show you my license. I've got my opium

5:57

license. Yeah. Yeah. So

5:59

let's as fast forward past alcohol

6:02

prohibition, that huge debacle from

6:04

nineteen thirty three.

6:06

Because it did not work. It did give

6:08

us several political dynasties

6:11

that started out as criminals. Oh yeah,

6:13

tons of those, and fun little secret

6:15

bars that are really popular now, speakeasies

6:18

that you can go to and find a hidden

6:20

door somewhere, the cottage industry

6:22

of creative people making moonshine,

6:25

I mean prohibition. Uh,

6:27

this is a scary thing. It will come up later and

6:29

many ways. Prohibition was fantastic

6:32

for parts of the U. S. Economy, but at

6:34

the same time it had a bloody history. There

6:37

were so many people died during prohibition.

6:40

Uh, not only from being shot

6:42

by authorities or authorities

6:44

being shot by uh you know, moonshiners

6:47

or whoever is trying to make the stuff a bootleggers,

6:51

people getting killed from poisoned

6:53

alcohol and yeah,

6:56

rock gout alcohol that wasn't made correctly.

6:58

Yeah that because without

7:01

going into all of the specifics

7:04

of how to create moonshine,

7:06

um, which some which my family knows

7:08

about. Uh, we can point you

7:10

to I believe stuff you should know as an episode

7:12

on moonshine, and they do a great job explaining

7:15

how to make this uh

7:17

strange, fantastic, potentially blinding

7:20

drink. But we

7:22

do know that marijuana

7:25

was also one of the things that fell

7:28

under the purview of drug laws,

7:30

the Marijuana Transfer Tax Act, And

7:32

this thing has its own bunch

7:34

of conspiracy theories, right Matt, it passed

7:36

in What were

7:38

some of the theories about why it's illegal. Well,

7:41

there are a couple of theories about hemp um

7:44

and hemp production and how that might take over other

7:46

textile industries at the time, cotton

7:49

specifically. Yeah, I

7:51

remember that at the time. The the

7:54

idea is that at the time William Randolph

7:56

Hurst newspaper tycoon. I

7:58

love the word tycoon, get to

8:00

use it very often, but this guy was legit

8:03

tycoon. He there could have been

8:05

a William Randolph Hurst tycoon

8:07

video game. Yeah. I wonder if they're

8:09

going to come out with a Simhurst or something. Uh.

8:13

Anyhow, this so this Hurst guy, as

8:16

the story goes, and listeners most of you already

8:18

know this. As the story goes, this guy

8:20

owned acres acres and acres

8:23

and acres of timber, and with

8:25

the invention of a new

8:28

device, decourse Raider

8:30

or something himp,

8:32

all of a sudden became a primary competitor

8:35

and was a more efficient plant

8:37

for the creation of paper right

8:40

and other industrial products rope,

8:42

et cetera. Uh. And that the

8:45

story goes that Hurst cooperated

8:47

with some of his other buddies in power to shut

8:50

down the industry,

8:52

the burgeoning marijuana or himp

8:55

industry, and one of the ways

8:57

they did that was to put out propaganda

8:59

pieces about the Remember the

9:01

I think I think one of the ones we ran in

9:03

our marijuana video was the

9:06

devil weed weed.

9:10

Yeah. It preyed upon these

9:12

horrible, horrible depictions

9:15

of like, uh,

9:17

the caricatures of people

9:20

who were Mexican and

9:22

they were drawn as these

9:25

like pseudo human

9:27

monsters that were, of course, you

9:29

know, all after the white women. And

9:31

if yeah, and if if a

9:33

young lady of otherwise good

9:36

moral standing was foolish enough to

9:38

smoke Reefer in a jazz club, oh

9:41

man, you the

9:44

terrible things that would happen to her, It's the end of

9:46

America right there, right, yeah, it is.

9:48

So we know that this, um,

9:51

we know that there are other conspiracy theories

9:54

that maybe this was

9:56

something to do with the depots and the invention

9:58

of nylon and then wanted to use

10:00

that instead. Most of these conspiracy

10:03

theories are

10:05

related to industrial competition,

10:08

but have not been conclusively

10:11

proven. At this point, I think it's important

10:14

to say that, yeah, absolutely, there are holes in

10:16

some of those stories. There are holes. But

10:18

you know, on the other side, they do point to

10:21

just the powerful trying to remain

10:23

powerful. I mean, somebody paid for

10:25

those propaganda pieces, right of

10:27

Marijuana Madness, which

10:30

is um. That reminds me of

10:32

that that film Reefer Madness.

10:34

Always see that. Oh yeah, I have a copy of

10:36

it on my computer. Actually, I

10:38

think that you know, I'm not gonna name

10:40

names, but one of my extended family members

10:42

watched this, and I don't think they understood it

10:44

was a comedy. Yeah yeah, I

10:46

don't know how you couldn't get it. Uh

10:51

yeah, I guess you're just if

10:53

you don't have the right frame older person

10:55

to I mean, I felt

10:57

like that had to he said. But okay, So

10:59

we have this history of all these

11:01

different attempts to um

11:04

criminalize, prohibit, or completely

11:06

eradicate drugs and drug trades.

11:09

Here's the million dollar question.

11:12

Has the war on drugs worked?

11:15

Well? Listener, what do you think since

11:18

nine seventy one the drug war has

11:20

officially been on, It's been waged. We're

11:22

in the middle of it right now, front

11:24

lines. Well not US, but like the d

11:28

hopefully not US, hopefully never US.

11:32

No. But but honestly, do you

11:34

think the just sitting there listening

11:36

to this, do you think the availability of drugs

11:39

has increased or decreased since

11:42

n Well,

11:44

the answer is it's increased a

11:47

lot, depending on which drugs

11:49

we're talking about. Right. Sure, there are a couple of

11:51

drugs that slipped through the cracks. Uh,

11:54

Ludes, Coludes

11:57

were a prescription drugs. Good point, Yeah,

12:00

I mean because my example, um

12:02

yeah, and we'll explore some uh,

12:05

some different arguments for against prohibition

12:08

and whether or not it is effective. Because

12:11

any any law that

12:13

criminalizes a drug, right,

12:15

whether it be caffeine,

12:18

adderall, crack, cocaine, or coludes.

12:21

Uh, that is essentially prohibitive

12:23

law. It's you cannot do

12:25

something versus a you must

12:27

do something. So,

12:30

so if we ask has the war on drugs

12:32

worked? Very interesting

12:34

thing here, my friends, because what we're really what

12:37

we're really answering there, Uh, it

12:39

depends on who you are as

12:41

whether or not it's worked. So if the goal was to

12:43

stop the availability of drugs, as you said,

12:46

then clearly that hasn't happened.

12:49

I mean, teenagers and multiple polls

12:52

find it easier to get marijuana

12:55

or cocaine than it is to buy alcohol,

12:57

which is legal. You know. Yeah, you need

12:59

an idea to get alcohol, or

13:02

you know at least somebody who will go in there and get it for

13:04

you, Yeah, whereas you just need to go to the right like

13:06

fish concert to get spot

13:09

yeah, or I mean just college

13:11

campus or wherever. I mean, it's it's

13:14

it's terrifying. Yeah, it's

13:16

terrifying how available that's any

13:19

of those drugs are, right, because it shows that things

13:21

don't work. But what if

13:24

the goal of US drug policy isn't

13:27

about eradicating the drug trade?

13:30

What do you mean? Of course it is. Here's

13:33

where it gets crazy.

13:36

After a word from our sponsors and

13:45

we are back. Okay, So we

13:48

left off saying, what

13:50

if the US drug policy goals

13:52

weren't necessarily oriented

13:54

towards eradicating the drug trade? What if

13:56

they were more towards managing

13:58

it or using it to do something

14:00

else, like, oh, I don't

14:03

know, increase budgets or

14:05

police departments and federal agencies

14:07

across the board. Yeah, that's

14:10

true. That's a definite thing that

14:12

has happened. If you if you

14:14

think the war on drugs is a failure, right,

14:17

uh, then you are like three

14:19

out of four Americans in two thousand and

14:21

eight. How insane is that? Right? In

14:23

democracies Now, the US is a

14:25

republic, but in a democratic system,

14:28

a number that high is supposed to

14:30

be a clear message, right

14:34

yeah, um, depending upon who

14:37

they're representing at the time. We

14:39

know that the war on drugs created soaring

14:42

incarceration rates. We've got some

14:44

scary numbers about it. That's right. Then,

14:46

with just five percent of the total

14:49

world population. The US

14:51

has twenty of the

14:53

world's prisoners, so

14:55

that means that proportionately we

14:58

lead the world just

15:01

hugely, big time. We live

15:03

for people who use the word freedom

15:06

so often in conversations.

15:09

I know how cynical this sounds. We put

15:11

a lot of people in jail, it doesn't matter what

15:13

your political stances. We put a lot

15:15

of people in jail. And then a lot of people are there for drug

15:17

offenses. And we don't do it for everybody.

15:19

Ben as most of us

15:22

know, um, dis Disproportionately,

15:25

these laws end up in prisoning minorities

15:29

like way more

15:31

than let's say, white people. Ah.

15:34

Yes, So just for some perspective here, in two thousand

15:36

eight, Washington Post found that of the one

15:38

point five million Americans

15:41

arrested each year for drugs, half

15:43

a million would be incarcerated

15:46

five hundred thousand a year. And of

15:48

those five hundred thousand, uh, the

15:51

majority are going to be minorities,

15:54

especially African Americans.

15:56

So this translates to one in five

15:58

Black Americans uh. In estimation,

16:01

one in five Black Americans spending time behind

16:03

bars due to drug laws. And

16:06

these kind of statistics they're

16:08

overwhelming, first of all, but they're also

16:10

leading people, UH, such as Michelle

16:13

Alexander, who's a critic. She

16:15

says that mass in car incarceration

16:18

is kind of the new Jim Crow, which,

16:21

if we remember the Jim Crow laws, they were

16:23

meant to I don't

16:26

know a good way to say, it's stifle the African American

16:29

UH set of rights. Right. Yeah,

16:31

Jim Crow laws come in, UH,

16:33

you know, in the period between slavery

16:36

and UH legalized quality

16:38

thinks to civil rights. Jim Crow

16:41

laws were another way to repress

16:44

and manage the United States

16:46

black population, UH through

16:49

what was in many ways

16:52

systematized enslavement under

16:54

a different name. I mean, we're not talking a

16:57

lot of people. They hear Jim Crow law and they

16:59

think separate water fountains, right, separate

17:01

restrooms, separate entrances. But this is

17:04

also something like enforced

17:06

work. Right. You

17:08

are locked up for an arbitrary reason

17:10

and then made to work for

17:13

uh some of the same companies

17:15

and in early days, some of the

17:17

same people who thought it was

17:19

a good idea to have slaves in the first place. Yeah.

17:21

It's interesting to use the word management again, Ben,

17:23

because it's something that we're finding throughout this

17:26

this series here just trying

17:28

to manage manage populations

17:31

in this weird way without showing the

17:33

hand of the manager because the laws

17:35

to meet are these rigid structures.

17:38

Um, they're faceless. Yeah, it's

17:40

their ideas, so

17:42

that I think that's a really good point. Now I

17:45

want to be completely fair and point

17:47

out that later on in the podcast,

17:50

we're going to talk about the

17:52

arguments for this prohibition.

17:55

Right, and clearly, clearly

17:58

not everyone thinks that there

18:00

is some overarching conspiracy

18:03

to re enslave um

18:06

the black population, minority populations.

18:09

So one of the questions there is,

18:11

um, is this disproportionate incarceration

18:15

occurring on purpose or

18:18

is it the culmination of a bunch

18:20

of short term decisions such

18:22

as politicians who want to be tough on crime.

18:25

That's great for votes, right and

18:27

uh? And also a socioeconomic situation

18:30

of vast swass of a population.

18:33

That's true. Yeah, So what

18:36

what is the cause? Is there

18:38

and orchestrated cause

18:40

here? And are

18:43

drug laws excuse me, our drug laws part

18:46

of this? You know, some drugs have been disproportionately

18:49

legislated. And I'm sure a lot of people are waiting for

18:51

us to get to this. Uh. The famous

18:53

one hundred to one sentencing

18:56

disparity for possession of crack

18:58

cocaine. Verse is powder

19:00

cocaine? Uh? That's crazy

19:03

talk. Yeah, and what causes

19:05

that? Why the heck is that even a thing? Is

19:07

it some kind of media based

19:10

panic, like a racial bias that's happening

19:12

in the media, um

19:14

or even in the law enforcement system.

19:16

Yeah, that's a good question. Uh. I everything

19:19

that I've heard of crack sounds

19:22

terrifying to me. It's one of those it's

19:24

one of those things where just I'm

19:27

not passing judgment on people met but it's

19:29

one of those things where I always wonder,

19:31

like, what is the thought process that

19:33

makes you say, you know, what is a good

19:36

idea today? Crack cocaine?

19:38

Yeah? I have some unfortunately

19:41

personal experiences, uh,

19:44

dealing with somebody who's addicted to

19:46

crack cocaine that I'm not going to talk about right

19:48

here, but I can just say that it is pretty

19:50

freaking horrendous and it's definitely not you

19:53

know, I just want to establish it's

19:56

it's not it's not you, it's

19:58

not null. Wait is it me?

20:00

Did I black out and do some crack? So?

20:03

I mean, we're making light of a very serious

20:05

thing, but The truth of the matter is

20:07

that for a long

20:10

time, this this

20:12

sort of disparity in sentencing

20:14

resulted in a lot of people

20:17

who had the same amount

20:19

of cocaine in a in a crack form

20:22

going to jail for much much longer

20:25

if the cocaine possessor even went to

20:27

jail at all. Yeah, because

20:29

the truth is right that they found

20:31

that there were demographics to drug use

20:34

and uh, people

20:36

empower would probably

20:39

not smoke crack, but they might do

20:41

cocaine, and they got lighter

20:43

sentencing until what two thousand

20:45

ten, Yeah, and two

20:47

thousands ten Obama signed the Fair Sentencing

20:50

Act to try at least and

20:52

reduce this disparity. We'll

20:54

see if it works out. So

20:57

I want to go back to what you said

21:00

earlier because you made one of the biggest and

21:02

best points that I know a lot of people are waiting for

21:04

out there, which is a financial

21:06

interest in the drug war. The idea

21:09

that the war on drugs

21:11

is a um

21:13

a guaranteed boon

21:16

or piece of the American economy. I mean,

21:18

what do you think. I absolutely

21:21

believe that. Um. I

21:23

mean, the economy as a whole seems

21:26

to churn on a couple

21:28

of different things. And one of them is the drug

21:30

trade because of the law enforcement

21:33

angle and the incarceration efforts.

21:35

And think about the private prisons

21:37

now and the amount of money

21:39

that goes into and comes out of private

21:42

prisons. I guess also it's

21:44

a it's a boon to the

21:47

legislative industry or litical litigious

21:50

industry. Yeah, well, the drug

21:52

a drug or drugs in general is a great

21:55

enemy to have to wage

21:57

a war on, at least from that endpoint,

22:00

because like you said, it's nameless, it's faceless,

22:02

it doesn't really ever die. Like, how

22:05

how do you extinguish Druggs completely?

22:07

I just can I go on a right here. If

22:10

we were to wage

22:12

wars on ideas, I

22:14

would like to wage wars on things like literacy,

22:17

things like a war on uh,

22:20

a war on water contamination,

22:23

a war on poverty would be a great

22:25

thing for a lot of Americans. And you're a good hearted

22:27

person. Well, I'd never be elected,

22:29

but thank you for saying so. And I think I

22:31

think earlier another US

22:34

president did declare a war on poverty,

22:36

but it didn't carry as much attention.

22:39

Yeah, there's not a lot of money in stopping

22:42

prop poverty. There's a

22:44

lot of money that comes out. Yeah,

22:46

there's a lot of money invested

22:48

in arresting marijuana

22:51

users. In two thousand nine h the US

22:53

spent and estimated seven billion

22:56

dollars arresting

22:58

people for what I am at egine is

23:00

I imagine that's everything. So that's like possession,

23:04

distribution growing,

23:07

I guess too. Uh. And we know

23:09

that drugs are also pretty

23:12

good source of profit while they were illegal, right,

23:15

oh yeah, because inside this black market,

23:18

the demand is never changed really

23:20

for drugs over time. There's always somebody,

23:23

like a lot of people who want drugs.

23:26

And if you if you control the market that

23:29

you know, there aren't a lot of competitors. You're

23:32

making money. We're looking at profit margins

23:35

I mean over oh yeah,

23:37

easily. And you know, there's a question

23:39

about whether drug

23:41

cartels would want US

23:44

drug laws to change. You know, if it became

23:46

legal, then the people swooping

23:49

in would be multinational corporations

23:52

with one hell of a war chest. Yeah,

23:55

and taxes, I mean

23:57

tax money out of you.

23:59

So yeah, there's a huge incentive

24:01

to perhaps that is

24:03

that is weird, that's an angle I've never thought about the incentive

24:06

of the cartels to maintain

24:08

the drug war. Yeah, I wonder,

24:10

I wonder if it's true. Now. You know, we

24:13

have some listeners

24:15

in our audience who are in law enforcement.

24:17

And one thing I think happens

24:20

that is unfair that we should talk

24:22

about here is that a lot

24:24

of the people that you know, you

24:26

will meet if you just are

24:29

on the street level, taking a

24:31

street level look at crime. Right, A

24:33

lot of the people who are responsible

24:35

for arresting someone,

24:38

right, they don't make the laws. It's

24:40

their job. They have to do it, you

24:42

know, It's it's probably criminal for

24:44

them not to. And I think it's strange

24:47

that these people, these

24:49

people who are on the front lines of the war on drunks,

24:51

right, Uh, they're the ones who

24:54

get so much of the criticism

24:56

and so much of the flak. And

24:59

you know, it's the same aime with the street level

25:01

drug dealers, right, they get most of

25:03

the prison time, but not

25:05

the guys at the top of the pyramid, you

25:07

know, on the other side. And you have to wonder

25:10

sometimes how often

25:13

the tops of these two competing pyramids

25:15

talk, right, and

25:17

if they work in unison. Uh,

25:19

that's you know, that's the bigcy

25:23

that that's the that's the big question.

25:25

Um. So what I wanted

25:27

to ask you, Matt, is

25:30

if we could talk a little bit about

25:33

some of the drug war stuff that

25:35

we have covered in our past

25:37

videos. We have a whole bunch, right Um.

25:41

I'm trying to think just the numbers. I remember

25:43

in our original War on Drugs

25:45

episode where we had the little ticker in the side

25:48

that shows how much money is being spent

25:50

by the US government on the war on drugs.

25:53

Yeah, real time while you're watching the video, and

25:55

it was it wasn't a huge amount. I think it was five dollars

25:58

a second. I think that's what it was.

26:00

I mean, when you hear that, it sounds

26:02

like a lot of money for you or I or most

26:05

of the people listening except for that one

26:07

other tycoon remember from the Bahamas.

26:10

Yeah yeah, anyway, yeah,

26:12

ready, uh

26:14

no, but okay, so it doesn't sound like that much money.

26:16

But then when you when you look at it, you watch

26:18

this video which is only three and

26:20

a half, I forget how many it is,

26:22

but you just see this massive number at the end, you realize,

26:25

my god, the amount of time it took me to watch this video,

26:28

a hundred thousand dollars which just spent.

26:31

Well, here's let's change directions a little

26:33

bit then, because this leads us to a

26:35

great question arguments for

26:38

against prohibition. Uh, do

26:40

you think that the

26:43

current drug laws work

26:46

or that there I guess

26:48

that the system in place is preferable

26:51

to other systems. Well,

26:54

like you said, the system right now arrests

26:56

pawns, and it gets pawns,

26:59

you know, and and is a horrible way to look

27:01

at it, but pawns in

27:03

the police department, the guys on the front lines,

27:06

the little man who's actually out there

27:08

trying to fight the war gets killed,

27:10

you know, and the low level drug dealer gets arrested

27:13

or killed. I don't think that

27:15

works to solve anything. That just creates

27:18

a perpetual pawn

27:21

death thing. So just a war

27:23

of attrition, Yeah, war progress

27:26

to me, that's that's what I see. And you're saying

27:28

in your saying ponds completely

27:30

and I'm not solely in the chess game non

27:33

interrogatory sense. I'm just you know, you're

27:35

sending your low level

27:37

guys out to fight a war, literally to fight a

27:39

war, and you never get to see the

27:42

bishop make an entrance. Now

27:44

you would say, you know, it's interesting you

27:46

say that because there are there are people who

27:48

say that prohibition in the

27:50

United States does work because

27:54

a smaller amount of our population

27:56

uses opium, for instance,

27:59

versus those who use something legal, such

28:01

as alcohol. So what

28:04

what would you say to that. I

28:06

guess this is what I would do. I would go into the argument

28:09

about the health consequences

28:11

of drug X versus drug Y. Okay,

28:14

I see, So maybe schedule drugs

28:17

based on that. Well, yeah,

28:19

I mean, there are a lot of things you could schedule them on.

28:22

It's just the way that drugs

28:24

are currently scheduled. Even if we just look

28:27

I mean, honestly, let's just look at marijuana

28:29

versus alcohol. And this has been done

28:31

so many times. You've heard this over and over all

28:33

your listeners. But the

28:36

known health effects of alcohol

28:38

versus the known health effects of marijuana are

28:41

there's a huge disparity there where. You

28:43

know, with alcohol, you can if you consume enough,

28:45

get alcohol poisoning. If you consume enough

28:47

and you drive a vehicle or

28:50

you know, use other heavy machinery, either way it impairs

28:52

you, you are most likely

28:54

going to hurt yourself or somebody else. Um,

28:58

alcohol is legal. Alcohol is good

29:00

to go. On the other side, with marijuana, a

29:03

lot of the studies in there haven't been enough studies yet

29:05

at least that we can cite. But it

29:07

doesn't seem to have the same effects. You don't seem

29:09

to be able to overdose on it and die.

29:11

Are you saying those those posters from

29:14

the thirties were wrong, I'm

29:17

saying they were propaganda? What no,

29:20

I know, Come on, man, Jazz,

29:23

really that's true. So

29:26

I'm just messing with you. But but yeah, that's

29:28

you know, that's a that's

29:31

definitely a valid argument that I see

29:33

there. Um. I know that when I've

29:36

spoken to people who are law

29:38

enforcement officers, the

29:41

vast majority of them would

29:43

rather not have to waste

29:45

time and paperwork busting

29:48

somebody with, you know, a dime

29:50

bag of pot or something. Because

29:54

there are people out there stealing

29:56

cars, attacking the elderly,

29:59

things like at that should clearly be illegal.

30:02

That's that's where I would draw the line, right, And a lot of people

30:04

in the line of violent crime. Oh yeah, violent

30:07

crime absolutely. But

30:09

that other thing you mentioned about cocaine

30:12

versus crack picking, yeah, oh

30:14

my gosh. I mean there have been numerous

30:16

exposees about Washington,

30:19

d c. And the amount

30:21

of cocaine that goes around that city, and

30:23

you know, not for any kind of miscreant,

30:26

just running around on the south side of town

30:28

or the north side of town. You're talking about the

30:30

players, Yeah, yeah, the

30:33

people in the houses of power, whether

30:35

corporate or governmental. You know, it's

30:37

funny because one of the things I learned we're looking at this

30:40

practice was that the

30:43

human species at large seems

30:45

to go like nuts over cocaine.

30:48

Were like that bird in that Coco

30:50

puffs, Uh, that Coco puffscot

30:54

is like cuckoo for Coco puffs or whatever. Yeah,

30:56

people are cuckoo for cocaine, you know. Uh.

30:59

The Mayor Rob Ford was

31:01

in the news a lot for his use of

31:04

crack cocaine, so I assume that would be regular cocaine

31:06

as well. Um. There was

31:08

a weird study that came out of a few years

31:10

back that said, um, I

31:13

think there's some towns in Italy

31:16

where so many people use cocaine

31:18

that you can find trace amounts of it in the water.

31:22

Uh. And you know they're always those statistics

31:24

people like to whip out where they say, like of

31:27

euros or dollars have traces

31:30

of drugs and fecal matter

31:32

on them and stuff so I don't know how how

31:35

realistic that is. But then

31:39

again, I don't know how realistic it is

31:41

to try to ban something

31:44

that's so many people

31:47

indulge in. The only kinds of prohibition

31:49

that seemed to work for a long time in

31:51

human history are religious

31:53

prohibitions, like dietary restrictions,

31:56

and it's because somebody's God

31:58

has commanded them not too Yeah, so it's

32:01

voluntary, right, But I

32:03

don't know, I'm I'm ranting, I guess a little bit.

32:06

It's just it's just strange to me. We haven't even

32:08

talked about opium production in Afghanistan

32:12

during the war, you know what. Let's talk about that

32:14

next. But first pausible word

32:17

from our sponsors. We're

32:27

back. So the

32:29

opium trade, the opium

32:31

war, and the Afghanistan war,

32:34

let's talk about it, man, Okay. Well, one

32:37

thing that's interesting about the operations

32:41

in Afghanistan, which I

32:43

think most of the American public

32:46

was on the same page this was these

32:48

were operations to catch

32:51

terrorists, right, They were after terrorists,

32:54

and they were hoping to stem

32:57

the flow of terrorism.

32:59

Uh at the time, one

33:02

one unforeseen side effect, at least most

33:04

of the American public didn't see this coming was

33:06

that opium production in Afghanistan

33:09

increased. Their their number

33:12

of possible factors for this. Uh.

33:14

People who believe there's a

33:16

conspiracy of foot will say that UM

33:20

intelligence agencies or private companies

33:23

wanted to rest control of this

33:25

of the you know, one of the world's prime

33:28

opium sources and UH

33:30

profit from it. But then other people would

33:32

say, well, that's that's

33:35

a little bit crazy. What's

33:37

happening instead is that farmers in Afghanistan

33:40

are finding that is more profitable to

33:42

grow poppies than it is to grow you

33:44

know, other products.

33:47

Right, Oh, yeah, it's it's hugely profitable.

33:49

And you have to think the

33:52

thought of going into the opium fields

33:55

the you know, and we're talking this is one

33:57

of the largest, if not the largest opium

34:00

deduction areas in the entire world, right

34:02

in Afghanistan. So the idea of going

34:04

in there is to stop that money that

34:06

would be coming from the profit of the sale

34:08

of that product to fun

34:11

terrorism. And now you've got the soldiers in

34:13

there, and in theory they're protecting

34:15

it and making sure you

34:18

know, I guess none gets sold or

34:21

you I don't. I mean, I I guess

34:23

I just don't understand the operational like

34:26

what they're doing the goals. Yeah, you

34:28

know, it's funny because and this is a bit of

34:30

a tangent. We can do an entirely

34:32

different series about wars. But

34:35

uh, one thing that was interesting

34:38

to me is that UM, before

34:40

the United States became involved in Afghanistan,

34:43

Uh, there were some discoveries that you and I have

34:46

talked about about large amounts

34:48

of what are called rare earth metals

34:51

or minerals, and some

34:54

of these deposits rival those

34:56

found in Mongolia, which is a huge

34:58

source of rare earth materials

35:01

UM and and rare earth material

35:04

is sort of a misnomer because it's

35:06

relatively rare in earth

35:09

right in the natural world. But if

35:11

you live in an industrialized society, it

35:13

is all around you in your smartphone

35:15

and your microphone. If it has a phone on

35:18

it, then it probably has or if there's electronics,

35:20

I mean, if there's a motherboard, just there's

35:22

some rare earth elements. So I've heard

35:25

some people say that that was one of the

35:27

actual aims of US intervention

35:29

there. But if you check out our

35:31

Great Game podcast, you will see

35:34

how the Soviet Union

35:36

and the United States

35:39

and the UK before it have

35:41

always fought over this

35:43

part of the world, Eurasia, Central

35:46

Asia. UM has always

35:48

been a a huge

35:51

piece of the global hegemonic

35:54

pie that no one can seem to hold for very

35:56

long. Right. It's

35:58

still really strange to me that after all that and

36:00

thinking about all those factors, the

36:03

fact is global opium

36:06

production is at an all time high.

36:09

Yeah, it's increased. And we know that

36:11

there was a much earlier war on drugs,

36:14

and we won't talk too much about today because we have a

36:16

video series about this coming out that you guys should

36:18

check out if you're interested, and that is on

36:20

the opium wars, which don't

36:23

get reported that much in Western

36:26

textbooks nowadays. Um

36:28

maybe because it is such a a

36:31

grossly unethical

36:34

war. UM Quick and Dirty

36:36

reader's digest version here. Essentially, the

36:39

West wanted to do more

36:42

trade with China at the

36:44

time, right, And the

36:46

problem was that the West, specifically

36:49

Britain the United Kingdom, didn't have

36:52

anything that China really wanted, right

36:56

except for opium

36:58

because they still controlled that in the British Empire.

37:00

So they started trying to uh

37:04

make trade with opium

37:06

right and get the population

37:08

addicted. And China had

37:10

a problem with that and a

37:13

war began because of that.

37:15

It was it was literally a drug war.

37:18

And you're going to find out a lot more about that in

37:20

the video series, so stay tuned and then

37:23

we will be making an audio podcast about

37:25

that as well. Yeah we probably should. Yeah, so I

37:27

should stop talking about there,

37:30

So let's instead talk a little bit more

37:32

about conspiracy surrounding the war

37:34

on drugs. Other criticisms are that this

37:37

creates a permanent underclass,

37:39

that current drug policies, in

37:42

one way or another, accelerate inequality.

37:45

Yeah, so now you have a

37:48

large part of the population that has to

37:51

I mean that there isn't really much of a way out

37:54

of their let's say situation

37:57

then to be low level criminal, low

37:59

level per and selling drugs because it's profitable

38:02

enough in the short term to maybe

38:04

get you out of that that situation. Um.

38:07

And then you've also got and I

38:09

don't know how to how to put this, but you

38:12

have a huge amount of job openings

38:14

for law enforcement, for low level

38:16

law enforcement, um, because

38:18

you need people to fight the battle

38:20

on the other side. M it's

38:23

interesting, Yeah, the the entry level

38:25

and just another thing, I

38:27

don't know if you know this or not, but police officers

38:30

don't get paid very well for the amount of risk

38:32

they go through every day. Yeah, that

38:34

is absolutely true. That's a that's a huge

38:37

problem. I would say that teachers and

38:39

police officers, e m t s

38:42

and firefighters are some of

38:44

the most dramatically underpaid people

38:47

in US society. And while

38:51

we're talking about government

38:53

jobs, Uh, let's go to

38:55

one of your favorite conspiracy

38:58

theories, met and I guess

39:00

in some cases it's a conspiracy fact. Is

39:02

it true, Matt, that government agencies

39:05

have participated in the illegal drug trade?

39:08

Ah? This is a difficult

39:11

thing to prove with cold

39:13

heart evidence. Although if

39:16

you if you know this one guy's name, you might

39:18

have a clue. Mr Gary Webb.

39:21

Uh. He was a journalist who

39:23

stumbled upon a story that was probably

39:26

too big for him

39:29

or for any other singular person

39:31

to take on. So Gary discovered

39:34

that, at least allegedly that

39:36

the CIA was trafficking drugs,

39:39

and uh he tried

39:41

to get the story out as much as he could. He was

39:44

largely discredited by

39:47

a lot of his peers for trying

39:49

to go forward with the story. Um, I

39:51

don't want to spoil it. If you don't know

39:54

what happened. To Gary Webb. I guess this would be the

39:56

place to hear about it. But check

39:58

out our video series right yeah, check, We've made

40:00

a video episode about this. But

40:02

also there is a film I believe still

40:05

in theaters called Killed the Messenger that

40:07

is all about the Gary web story. That's

40:09

true, and I've heard good things about it.

40:11

I haven't seen it yet, um, just because

40:15

you know, we had we had looked into it so much.

40:17

I didn't want to be that guy in the movie theater going what

40:20

oh sure,

40:22

because those people are annoying and uh,

40:24

and we also know there have been other implications

40:27

of governmental shenanigans involving

40:30

turning a blind eye to the drug trade.

40:32

There's been uh, conspiracy

40:34

theories about every aspect of the drug trade,

40:36

including the idea that the c i

40:39

A purposefully marketed crack

40:41

cocaine to impoverished

40:44

minorities, especially

40:46

there in California, as a way

40:48

of sending out

40:50

the population or attempting to. And

40:54

there are also allegations that it was to

40:57

be used to kind of break

40:59

up the Black Power movement. Um

41:02

the because you know they are they already

41:05

kind of at least the FBI worked on destroying

41:07

the Black power movement by segmenting

41:09

it up, by turning all the different

41:11

groups against each other, and then you know, later

41:14

on down the road to get cracked and you kind of do the same

41:16

thing when you have gangs formed. You

41:19

know. I would like to hear from our listeners

41:21

to hear if you guys think that there is

41:23

any proof to that um

41:26

and we are going to start heading out today. But

41:28

I have to ask you, Matt, if you were going

41:30

to change the US drug laws,

41:32

what would you change and how? Thanks

41:36

Ben for that simple softball question.

41:39

I'm just popping it. It's

41:42

it's so soft. It's like I'm tossing your

41:44

kitten to you and zero gravity. Alright, Well,

41:46

Senator Frederick, would uh would

41:49

put forth legislation that

41:52

would honestly, I would probably

41:54

want to. I

41:56

mean, the best way to kill a black market

41:59

is to make it leagal, and I

42:02

think I think that's true currently

42:04

Portugal. Huh like Portugal?

42:08

Yeah, uh, that's weird because they've

42:10

They've become an often cited

42:13

example. But do you think that all drugs

42:15

then would be legal? Like would you want heroin

42:18

to be legal? I would? This is gosh,

42:20

I sound I probably sound like an idiot

42:22

to many of you. But yeah, I would say I would want heroin

42:25

to be legal and it would be on a shelf,

42:27

and I wouldn't buy it the same way. I wouldn't,

42:29

you know, go in and try and get xan

42:32

X or something, or I wouldn't go in and try

42:34

and I don't know, get some other

42:36

high level drug that I don't need that's prescription

42:39

right now. Um. I

42:42

would view it that way. And then if somebody really

42:45

needs heroin because

42:47

they're going to die if they don't get it, you

42:49

know, from the reactions of not having it, then

42:52

it's there. Um. And then

42:54

I would also Senator Frederick

42:56

would introduce legislation that would

42:59

focus on again rehabilitation, the

43:01

idea that this looking at

43:04

addiction differently, not as a

43:06

criminal activity, but as a

43:09

chemical issue with your body. I

43:11

see, Yeah, that's that's pretty

43:13

fair. Yeah. I I don't know, I've

43:15

been listening to too much Russell Brand lately. He

43:17

gets I mean, he he is a has a really good insight

43:20

into what it means to

43:22

be addicted to drugs. And you know, he is

43:24

a comedian and an actor, but

43:27

he's lived for that life. Yeah, and he's

43:29

got a great show. We're actually pretty big fans.

43:32

Yeah, I watch it probably every

43:35

day. Yeah, so we're actually pretty big fansy

43:37

years, Mr brand Uh, if you

43:39

ever want to hang out, let us

43:41

let us know, please, I don't know, if you ever happen

43:43

to be down this way down Atlanta

43:45

way. Uh, you know what I would like to

43:48

try to do, Matt where I Senator

43:50

Boland? Well, I guess this

43:53

wouldn't really work in a democracy and need to

43:55

be a dictator, umator.

43:59

I mean sure all dictators are like kind

44:01

of benevolent during the honeymoon period. Right,

44:03

Here's the way I would do, just

44:05

for like a year or two, I would make everything illegal,

44:09

everything, every single

44:11

thing, and turn the country into a

44:13

prison. The whole country. Everybody's

44:16

under arrest. What did you do? Don't

44:18

answer, it was against the law. And

44:20

then I'd slowly start to make things legal again

44:23

and let some people out of this massive

44:25

prisons. Everybody stays in the country in

44:28

or out. We're like Madagascar and pandemic and

44:31

uh, you know, slowly ease

44:33

back into some things and then you

44:36

know, see which one is the trigger point? You

44:38

go start with walking outside is

44:40

now legal again, and people can

44:43

walk outside only between

44:45

three and four, because you gotta

44:47

start small, repeal all

44:49

this stuff at once. Now, of course,

44:52

ladies and gentlemen, I hope you understand that I am

44:54

joking and that is a terrible, terrible form

44:56

policy. If there are any world leaders in

44:58

the audience today, please please,

45:01

please please do not make everything

45:04

illegal just to see what would

45:06

happen. Thank you for putting

45:08

that idea into their brains. Now, man,

45:10

I look forward to in twenty years when somebody

45:14

goes, you know, let's do it. Why

45:16

not, why don't we just make everything illegal?

45:18

Um? But then there's a question, what would happen

45:20

to the economy. For instance, if if all

45:23

drugs were legal in the United States, Uh,

45:25

there would be a massive

45:29

shift in the economy. Um. And that

45:31

is something to consider. Also,

45:34

quit plug for Freakonomics. If you

45:36

guys checked them out, they have this great They

45:38

have this great investigation of how much money a

45:40

drug dealer actually does or does not make, and

45:43

they equated it to something around minimum wage

45:46

before minimum wage got raised. Yeah,

45:48

it's it's sobering and saddening.

45:51

Then there's the show called drug inc. That

45:53

I watched a special on not long ago,

45:55

and it focused on Atlanta and the molly

45:58

trade or the ecstasy trade in

46:01

Atlanta, and it focused

46:03

on some low level drug dealers,

46:06

and that was one of the main points was just how

46:09

how not lucrative it is for somebody

46:11

who's actually in danger of getting arrested

46:13

and put in jail for years. Right, Yeah,

46:16

not to mention no health insurance, no

46:18

benefits, none of that. I guess you get cobroke.

46:21

You had to ouch. So

46:24

on that note, listeners, we hope you enjoyed this episode

46:26

as much as we enjoyed making it, and we want

46:28

to hear your thoughts on the drug

46:30

war. If you'd like to check out our videos or our

46:33

podcasts, go to Stuff they Don't want you to Know dot

46:35

com. You can find every little thing we've ever done,

46:38

I think pretty much. You can also go to

46:40

our YouTube channel if you don't already do that on

46:42

the RAG, because you should. And

46:45

that's the end of this classic episode.

46:47

If you have any thoughts or questions

46:50

about this episode, you can

46:52

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46:54

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47:03

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47:06

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47:09

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