0:00

From UFOs to psychic powers

0:02

and government conspiracies. History

0:04

is riddled with unexplained events. You

0:07

can turn back now or learn

0:09

the stuff they don't want you to know. A

0:12

production of My Heart Radio Welcome

0:24

back to the show. My name is Matt, my

0:26

name is Noel. They called me Ben. We're

0:28

joined as always with our super producer

0:31

Paul. Mission Control deconds. Most importantly,

0:33

you are you, You are here, and

0:35

that makes this stuff they don't

0:38

want you to know a

0:40

better way to begin war?

0:44

Uh good? Is it good

0:46

for? Uh? Some

0:49

stuff? Yeah? Absolutely, well,

0:52

a lot of things depending on who you

0:54

ask. History hinges

0:56

on the outcome of global and

0:58

regional con flicks. The

1:01

world in which you exist

1:03

today, no matter where you live,

1:05

is the way it is because of

1:08

some conflict in the past, whether

1:10

ancient or whether recent or indeed

1:13

ongoing. We know war drives

1:15

innovation, along with misery, degradation,

1:18

and death, and wars themselves

1:20

as long time listeners will know, our rife

1:22

with conspiracies and conspiracy theories.

1:25

War generates and it cost billions

1:28

upon billions of dollars every

1:30

year. We actually do not know how much

1:33

because there's a lot of dirty money involved.

1:35

Shout out to the Department of Defenses

1:38

disappearing palettes of cash

1:41

in the billions. We remember that story, uh,

1:43

fading from the news, but

1:46

we we have snapshots, like, for example,

1:48

when you look at World War two, Congress

1:50

estimates that war alone

1:53

costs the US four point

1:55

one trillion dollars, which I promise

1:57

you is a number of

2:00

us listening to the show today can truly

2:02

comprehend, right, Like, we don't even

2:04

know what a billion dollars is. Really, it's

2:06

pretty hard to wrap your head around it. Uh.

2:09

And like you said, that's for the US alone,

2:11

right, Yeah, that's not a

2:13

country that had its entire infrastructure

2:15

or of large swans of it wiped out by bombs.

2:18

Yeah, one of the few that did not. So

2:21

the motivation for war can

2:24

come in any number of guys. And

2:26

we've said this on the show before, and I

2:28

know it can be a controversial opinion for some,

2:31

but historically, at the core,

2:33

no matter what the rationale is, war

2:36

has always been resource driven.

2:39

In very simple terms, that

2:41

other tribe has stuff we want, or

2:44

we have stuff they want, and we're worried they're

2:46

just gonna stop talking to us one day and

2:48

take it. Humans historically

2:51

are terrible at sharing. That's

2:54

also true. Uh So today's

2:56

question, I think, Matt Noll, it's

2:58

it's been on our collect of minds for

3:00

a long long time. Is war

3:03

more than just a breakdown

3:06

of communication and diplomacy and

3:08

alternative strategies? Has

3:10

war in the US especially

3:13

become an economic necessity?

3:16

Is the US addicted to

3:18

war? Here are the

3:20

facts. Also, we're going to say war

3:23

a lot in today's show, So

3:25

don't worry if you encounter what's

3:27

called uh semantic safety

3:30

world war war, war, war, war war, it

3:32

only takes and then it

3:34

just sounds like a like a synthesizer noise

3:37

um. And so generally for this show, we're

3:39

talking about actual warfare, not

3:42

necessarily cold war things. But

3:45

although the build up for a cold war situation

3:48

can be very economically viable for

3:50

a country, right well, and it

3:52

involves many of the same things to the

3:54

lead up right then a regular warwood

3:56

it's all about preparation and gathering, infrastructure

3:59

and all that stuff. Yes, so

4:01

I guess it is kind of both of those things bend whatdy.

4:03

But in in many cases

4:05

throughout this episode, I'm assuming we're going to be discussing

4:08

a hot war where there there are missiles

4:10

flying and weapons being fired

4:13

when we're using this stuff we've been building

4:16

for so long. That's an excellent point because

4:18

you still have a lot of militarization

4:21

in a cold war. You're just you're preparing

4:24

in advance. You're getting that what they call

4:26

it in cooking your misses in place where you cut

4:29

up all the ingredients in advance so you can

4:31

cook right when it's time to cook. Also,

4:33

it's the best way to go about it. It is, it

4:35

is, It's totally worth it. But uh,

4:38

we're talking about cooking at this point, not cold

4:40

wars. Just to be clear. Also,

4:42

it's gonna bug me if I don't point it out. I

4:45

said semantic sayity, but I think

4:47

it's semantic satiation, right,

4:50

yeah, Okay, who what

4:52

what? What? What? What? Well? In many

4:54

ways, the best way to explain

4:56

what we mean when we say addicted to

4:58

war or an econom make necessity

5:01

is to explore it through an analogy.

5:04

A nation, any nation, is

5:07

kind of like a household, their bills

5:09

to pay their mouths. Defeat is work

5:11

to do. And it might be surprising to some

5:13

of us to realize that the annual

5:16

activities of nations often

5:18

obey a cycle. Similar to the

5:20

cycle maybe in your own home, you

5:22

know you have planned expenses, you

5:24

unfortunately will have unexpected expenses,

5:27

and then hopefully you have planned income or

5:29

profit, like you know when your paycheck

5:32

is coming or if you're well to do you

5:34

know when you're I don't know, dividends

5:37

come in, or when you get fully

5:39

vested in your tiger

5:42

farm or your dirigible dirigible

5:45

dealership. All right, well it's not perfect

5:47

analogy, but you see what you're saying. You know, the money

5:49

indirigibles is really in the service

5:52

section, you know, so totally. You

5:54

can only sell so many dirigibles, but you can repair

5:57

dirigibles like all year long, and

5:59

aparently you can patch them using sausage

6:02

skin or sausage casings. That's

6:04

a weird history nugget for

6:06

you. That's awesome and prescient

6:08

because I think we all know that's gonna

6:10

come into play in a bigger way in

6:13

today's episode. We're we're referencing

6:15

our episode of ridiculous history

6:18

that we did. There's a weird

6:20

undercurrent to being very pro dirigible

6:23

in our world. It's true. I

6:25

think it's just because it's like a it's it feels

6:28

like such a transportation of the future that actually

6:30

makes absolutely no sense because

6:32

they're very limited. They can only fly and like

6:34

medium to low altitudes

6:37

and not hold that many people, and they're

6:39

kind of hard to board, and they

6:41

spring leaks all the time, and you know, some of them explode

6:44

in a cloud of fire and destruction,

6:46

you know, when you fill in with the wrong stuff. Anyway, the

6:48

point is here that even

6:51

nations have to have gigs,

6:53

they have to be sustainable,

6:56

they have to make money.

6:58

The rules for nations are are very

7:00

very different from the rules for individuals.

7:02

That's where we get into things like deficits

7:05

and trade deficits and the

7:07

idea of national debt. But at

7:10

the basis, nations, countries,

7:13

as well as the corporations and individuals

7:15

existing within them, make money in

7:17

any number of ways. We're talking

7:20

manufacturing and exports, taxation,

7:23

agriculture, technology, and

7:25

stuff like that. Most nations

7:28

try to have a diversified collection

7:30

of profit streams, and that's

7:32

because nobody on the geopolitical level

7:35

trust anybody else, and absolutely

7:37

should not. If you find yourself

7:40

painted into a corner and your

7:42

economy is too dependent on a

7:44

single type of thing or a single genre, then

7:47

you are extremely vulnerable

7:50

to economic warfare. That's true.

7:52

So let's take the earlier case of operations

7:55

Satanic. We talked about this recently

7:58

with the amazingly named Rainbow

8:00

Warrior trawler Green Piece

8:03

outfitted and France bombed the

8:05

ever loving out of I'm

8:07

saying that those are your words, Ben, I cannot claim

8:09

credit. That is absolutely accurate, but I

8:11

had to say because it's a lot of fun. It's a technical

8:14

term, right, we figured that out. Ben

8:16

invented the phrase bomb. No,

8:21

it's some guy at a taco bell invented that.

8:23

Uh. Shortly after he went a

8:26

chloopa, too far? Oh no,

8:29

well, okay, wow.

8:31

Well, in the case of

8:33

the Rainbow Warrior, we discussed this

8:35

not long ago. Listen to the episode if

8:37

you haven't yet. But France, a

8:40

team of secret operatives from

8:42

France went on over to New Zealand

8:45

where the Green Pieces ship was

8:48

was stationed the Rainbow Warrior, and

8:50

they dove down into the water, planted

8:53

explosives on the side and it

8:55

exploded in ever loving stuff

8:59

and uh twice, they

9:01

hit it twice and unfortunately a photographer passed away

9:04

when they did that. But it

9:06

was weird because at

9:09

first it was thought, you know, it could be enemies from

9:11

anywhere that came and hit this thing, but it

9:13

turns out it was France, and New Zealand learned

9:15

pretty quickly. Yeah. New Zealand knew

9:18

almost immediately that France was the

9:20

hidden hand behind this acted terrorism

9:22

and they confronted them. It's a very tense

9:25

situation, but France had

9:27

leverage over New Zealand in a very

9:30

dangerous way because New Zealand was extremely

9:32

dependent on exports to Europe.

9:35

The United Kingdom in particular, and

9:37

Europe in this regard was

9:39

moving as a posse right, they were

9:41

a supergroup, and France

9:44

then was able to strong arm

9:46

New Zealand by saying, look,

9:48

if you don't play ball

9:51

the way we want you to and give us back some

9:53

of our operatives, we're going to cut

9:55

off your trade relations with Europe. This

9:58

would have wrecked their economy, and

10:00

there's no arguing about it.

10:03

That is the threat of economic warfare. If

10:06

New Zealand had a more diverse economy

10:08

at the time, the conversation would have gone

10:10

differently. Yeah,

10:12

they could have. They could have, um I

10:14

think pursued different courses

10:17

of action. So that's what we mean when we talk

10:19

about being dependent on something.

10:21

And just the other thing to take into account here is

10:23

that Green Peace was not a

10:26

New Zealand based organization. They just

10:28

happened to be there while they were on their

10:30

way to France controlled waters in the

10:32

Pacific, so they

10:34

it wasn't as you know, it wasn't as though

10:36

it was two countries coming head to head

10:39

in an act of aggression directly against

10:41

the country, but it did occur, you

10:43

know, in their country. So it's

10:45

just a weird situation all around.

10:47

But it's a really good point then that having

10:50

that leverage is really

10:52

what changed the scenario there. Yeah,

10:54

and for another example, just that story

10:56

is wild. Please do as as

10:59

you were saying, match account the episode. If you haven't heard

11:01

it yet, it is a it is a

11:03

bizarre ride. And

11:06

maybe another way to think of it if

11:08

you're wondering why that seemed to be a big deal

11:10

to New Zealand, um, imagine

11:14

imagine what the current

11:17

US administration would do if

11:19

it was proven that Iran

11:23

bombed bombed

11:25

a Green Piece ship that was docked

11:28

you know, in Baltimore or something. Right,

11:31

right, So here's

11:34

our other question, you know, economic necessity.

11:37

It's kind of a dry term. It's kind of boring,

11:39

right, you don't. You don't hear people

11:42

use that phrase too often

11:44

in casual conversation. But let's

11:46

think of it in less blood soaked terms

11:49

in a way that's kind of fun. Actually, we

11:52

are of the age, all

11:56

all of us on on the show today, and maybe

11:58

you're listening along with us. We're old

12:00

enough to remember the reign of

12:02

department stores, the old big

12:05

box stores. A lot of them are still around,

12:07

but there used to be many, many more riches.

12:10

Oh yeah, yeah, and some of them had

12:13

just the weirdest names, like Dillard's.

12:15

How would you spend that much money on a business and

12:18

call it Dillards? Feel like Dillard It must

12:20

have been somebody's name, because

12:22

that seems like the kind of thing you'd call somebody like as

12:24

a slight, you know, like you Dillard play

12:27

something Beavis and butd Head would say, I

12:29

mean, come on, Phyllis, uh,

12:32

Phyllis. Yeah, But that's old

12:34

school, that's just Dillard.

12:38

It sounds like Dullard, you know. It just sounds like a

12:40

term of abuse. It does. But they

12:43

did pretty well for for quite a while now.

12:47

They've been supplanted to a great

12:49

degree by online businesses uh,

12:52

such as, uh, you know Jeff.

12:54

We all know Jeff, Jeff from Amazon.

12:57

He might be in your house right now as we're

12:59

recording, So tell them

13:01

we said hello. But here's

13:03

where we're going with this example. Since

13:06

the rise of shopping malls and department

13:08

stores, especially post World War

13:10

Two, there's been one

13:12

period of time that all of those

13:15

retail businesses prayed for

13:17

and feared and relied upon, and

13:20

that is the period between Thanksgiving

13:23

and Christmas here in the US

13:25

that that was, historically and probably

13:28

still is today the most profitable and stressful

13:30

time of the calendar year for businesses

13:33

for a couple of reasons. I mean profitable,

13:35

that's easy to guess. Tons of people

13:38

are spending billions of dollars,

13:40

sometimes money they don't have. Sometimes it's all

13:42

on credit cards to buy gifts, to

13:45

go on trips, etcetera, etcetera.

13:48

But it's also really stressful because for a lot

13:50

of businesses, this was their one

13:52

shot at getting back into

13:54

the black if the rest of the year hadn't

13:56

gone so well. And businesses

13:59

in the US assure you, retail

14:01

businesses continually think

14:03

about this period at some point every

14:05

single day of the year, and they should

14:08

because their future may depend on it.

14:10

They are economically dependent

14:12

on that period of time. That's

14:15

a great example, Ben, And it's not It's

14:17

not just department stores

14:19

and you know, online sellers and

14:22

everything like that. It's everything. If

14:24

you think just about the advertising industry,

14:27

the thing that supports most most

14:29

podcasts out there, unless they use Patreon

14:32

or some other donation system, ads

14:34

pay for things, and in the ad business,

14:36

it's that same exact period they

14:39

call it Q four. That's where

14:41

you that's where you make or break your

14:43

calendar year. Oh man. And just a

14:45

peep behind the curtain, that's where if

14:48

you're if you're someone like us,

14:50

that's that's where you'll get a

14:52

lot of weird stuff. At the very end of

14:54

the year. People say like, hey,

14:56

um, do any

14:58

of you have personally perience

15:00

with Dr Pepper zero

15:02

sugar or cave cave

15:05

diving? Dang, that's good. Looks

15:08

good, Matt. I guess see the droplets

15:10

glistening on the outside of the bottle. Uh.

15:12

I kind of wish you could see that on the podcast land.

15:14

But either way, she'd go, get yourself refreshing

15:17

Dr Pepper. Um. But you know,

15:19

it's like It's like it's not only make it a break of time, it's

15:21

use it or lose it time for a you

15:23

know, for brands, because they literally have this

15:25

money remaining they have to use or like

15:28

rolls over into the next fiscal year or whatever. So

15:30

a lot of mad money feeding frenzy

15:32

spending going on in Q four. Yeah,

15:35

that reminds me, Matt, I forgot

15:37

to send you the email. Would you be willing

15:39

to cave dive into um

15:42

a cavern system that was filled with Dr Pepper

15:45

zero as like an extended

15:47

mid roll. Yeah, yeah,

15:49

we'll get you. Well, we'll probably be

15:51

able to get you out of there. Okay,

15:55

great, So, uh no, I

15:57

gotta show you out that that is enormous.

16:00

The President, you were killing it today because

16:03

uh you're you're right. The

16:05

ad industry does have that cycle.

16:08

People might be surprised to learn. I think we

16:10

mentioned on air in the past. The defense industry

16:12

has that cycle too. It's the well

16:15

we're cursing on today's show. So it's the weirdest

16:18

day in the Defense department.

16:20

Because they have a cut

16:23

off for times that funds can be allocated,

16:25

they have to spend all that money, so their budget

16:27

doesn't get cut the next year, you know, whatever their

16:30

little uh, whatever their fiefdom

16:32

may be. And so you'll

16:35

see these increasingly desperate

16:37

calls going by time zones.

16:40

And the very last one, of course is

16:42

like the furthest West. That's

16:45

those are the final approvals, and everybody

16:48

is trying to spend money because if they

16:50

don't, like you said'll they'll use it or they'll

16:52

lose it. And this economic

16:54

example in retail

16:57

holds true to a degree for others

17:00

swaths of the economy. This

17:02

is, if you are uh

17:05

high mucky muck at a department

17:07

store, or if you're a high mighty might get a

17:09

big online business, then you

17:11

know very well that profit

17:14

projections around this period of time

17:16

are baked into your yearly estimates

17:18

of profit and loss. Your supply

17:20

chain is oriented toward working

17:24

at its peak during this time.

17:26

And then there's an army, an army

17:28

size amount of temporary workers

17:31

that are hired just to be warm bodies on

17:33

the job. Is also applies this shippy

17:35

and production, etcetera, etcetera.

17:38

But over the years, over the decades,

17:41

especially after the horrors of World War

17:43

Two, that are still very much with us today,

17:46

scholars began to ask, have

17:48

the US, the former USSR,

17:51

and other nations haught

17:53

themselves in a trap like

17:56

that Elvis song, suspicious

17:58

eye, suspicious line, us, suspicious

18:01

minds, minds. We can go,

18:03

yeah, like that one. All right,

18:05

thank you you guys safe on that one. But

18:07

have have we become not

18:10

a country that is capable of waging

18:13

war, but a country that relies

18:15

upon the act of war

18:18

as a means of financial stability?

18:20

And is it just us? And does

18:23

it just us? We'll pause

18:25

for a word from our sponsor uh AS

18:27

as our pal Robert Evans likes to say goods

18:30

and services, you know, maybe

18:32

Raytheon or Illumination Global

18:34

and limited O pop by, and then we'll be

18:36

back to dive

18:38

in to some disturbing things.

18:46

Here's where it gets crazy,

18:49

Matt Noel, let's

18:51

just cut the podcast short. What's the answer. Is

18:53

the US addicted to war? Hi?

18:56

It's complicated.

19:00

I mean they're addicted to war in the same

19:02

way that Robert Palmer is addicted to love. Right,

19:06

it might also be an economic necessity

19:08

for him. We're

19:11

we're on a just referenced roller coaster

19:14

here, guys. I'm loving it. Um.

19:18

It's been a weird day for us. Uh.

19:20

Yeah, you're right, it dives into the

19:22

realm of conspiracy and Matt, you're

19:25

absolutely I agree with you. Absolutely. The

19:27

answer does feel complicated, but

19:29

maybe not complicated in some of the ways we

19:31

might assume. During World War

19:33

Two, which was the last hot

19:36

global conflict, ouch

19:38

as we record this, has anybody checked the news?

19:41

Guys global, it's posible.

19:43

Quick, somebody google, So Vietnam's

19:45

out, viet is out?

19:48

Yeah, war and terror and does that count?

19:50

It never ended. It's like lobster Fest.

19:52

It's not global. I guess. Yeah,

19:54

I guess the whole isist thing too. Yeah, I guess that's

19:56

the last global conflict and

20:00

now we are in and endless

20:02

wars like promotions at Red

20:04

Lobster I don't know. I'm so obsessed

20:06

with lobster Fest. But anyway, Yeah, during

20:08

World War Two, multiple

20:11

nations became what we call war

20:14

economies. This is not necessarily

20:16

a bad thing, but it is very much

20:19

a move. Yeah. This is when an

20:21

economy prioritizes

20:23

creating weapons of war,

20:26

things that are necessary for war, everything

20:28

from uniforms to food

20:31

supplies to the ammunition

20:33

to the actual machines of war.

20:36

Anything you may need to

20:38

actually wage war. Even even

20:40

things like concrete manufacturing

20:42

concrete and other things will be needed to

20:44

build while in some other country

20:47

or you know, while engaged

20:49

in a battle in some other area, so

20:52

all those support systems too. And

20:56

this usually happens again, like we

20:58

talked about, when there's open conflict, when

21:00

it's a hot war, when uh,

21:02

when governments are fighting against each other,

21:04

essentially, even if it's through proxies, and

21:08

the governments of the each individual

21:10

actor that's involved there, dude,

21:12

they just they

21:15

they open up that bank vault, they get all their

21:17

wallets out collectively. Everybody's like, all right, well,

21:19

let's see, I see what we can do here. How can

21:21

we contribute? Oh? I know for sure that

21:24

factory over there was making Volkswagens

21:26

for a while. We're gonna need to then make tanks

21:29

there. Okay, great, And they just start

21:31

allocating new even like existing

21:34

infrastructure to war. Make

21:36

it rain, make it rain, picture

21:40

picture picture governments,

21:43

like picture of the US government during World War

21:45

two, kind of like Tom

21:47

Cruise his character and Tropic Thunder

21:50

when he's doing the dance and he's like,

21:52

oh yeah, it's time, right, Like you

21:54

can have as much funding as you want.

21:57

There is no limit in terms of

21:59

finance. There is a harsh limit

22:01

in terms of timeline. So like

22:04

just a made up example and say, all right,

22:07

we want you to you

22:10

have a clothing factory. Now we

22:12

want you to shift from making dresses and

22:14

trousers. You're only making uniforms.

22:17

Now you're like, all right, that's fine, we need

22:20

X millions of dollars to to retrofit

22:22

and to get up to speed. And they're like, okay,

22:24

well, how about we give you twice that and

22:26

you get it done. Now, that's

22:29

that's how it happens. And well, there's the other thing

22:31

here that simultaneously

22:33

while that's occurring, because

22:36

really what you're doing is, if you're a government and you're

22:38

making all of these things, well,

22:41

at least in the case of the United States, you're shipping

22:43

all of that stuff somewhere else. You're loading it onto

22:45

ships and onto planes and things,

22:48

so all of that money is essentially going away

22:51

from the country the interior of the country.

22:54

What's happening simultaneously is that there's a tightening

22:56

of the belt of a lot of other spending

22:59

that's occurring inside the country, and

23:01

there's a rationing of food, which which

23:03

we saw here and many other countries

23:05

where foods, food supplies had to be rationed

23:07

for a regular old citizens. And

23:10

again, since manufacturing is shifted,

23:12

kind of the the perceived

23:15

prosperity of each individual citizen

23:18

kind of goes down a little bit because you're not getting new

23:20

goods. You're not getting you know, you

23:22

maybe not have the funds even to make

23:24

those new goods, but they're definitely not being manufactured,

23:26

right. Yeah, And and there are pretty

23:29

robust studies that show

23:32

on an individual level there there can

23:35

be a profound negative impact right

23:38

because of the things that you're naming as

23:40

the government becomes more

23:42

like a purpose built machine, an

23:44

engine with one task than

23:46

things that do not help the task of that

23:49

engine quickly fall to the wayside.

23:51

They become backburner ideas. Will work

23:53

on education later, you know what I mean.

23:55

Uh, we need to make sure

23:57

our country will still exist before we throw

24:00

money at school building projects.

24:03

So you can see the logic there, but you getting

24:05

surreal situations. I love that you mentioned the

24:07

car industry. It's fascinating. Uh.

24:10

The car industry went through plot twists

24:12

that would make m Night Shamlan like

24:14

lose his mind. He even couldn't handle

24:17

it because like just for a perspective of

24:19

how profound, like how

24:21

serious war economies are, how much

24:23

money has involved, how much power and influence.

24:27

One the year right before the war began,

24:30

the US automotive industry

24:32

and that year alone made more than

24:35

three million cars,

24:38

and then two war

24:41

happens during the course of the war.

24:43

Like you said, Matt, the US

24:45

auto industry, Corporate

24:48

America would call it a pivot. Throughout

24:50

the entirety of World

24:52

War Two. The

24:54

US auto industry, the whole

24:56

thing, the whole kit and caboodle, the whole shebang. May

25:00

get this a

25:02

grand total of one hundred and thirty

25:04

nine cars. For years it went

25:06

from three million to one hundred and thirty

25:08

nine total instead, yeah

25:13

right, it's that low. Um. So

25:15

instead they were building tanks,

25:18

airplanes, jeeps, torpedoes, you

25:21

name it, right for one customer,

25:24

Uncle Sam, that's

25:26

all they were doing. And uh,

25:29

people were paying more in taxes as

25:31

well. You if you made

25:34

over uh two hundred thousand

25:36

dollars for a time, your income

25:39

was taxed like over. Yeah,

25:42

but you know that's that's for the people outside

25:44

of the real system. I

25:46

would argue, what right, I mean, it's

25:49

like we're in that different of a situation

25:51

now. I just feel like, you know, I hear I go again

25:53

on my soapbox about taxes, but I feel like so much

25:55

of my tax money goes towards these types

25:57

of programs and things that I don't directly see,

26:00

uh in my day to day, But this was a time when it

26:02

was obviously crucial, uh.

26:04

And I get it, I definitely

26:06

do. I'm not saying we don't need to contribute

26:09

tax to defense, but tax

26:11

dollars, I think, over the years have become overwhelmingly

26:14

more and more allocated towards defense. UM.

26:16

And if the country is borrowing

26:18

all that money, then the cash overwhelmingly

26:21

as well goes toward national security and

26:23

growing the military. And again

26:26

something we're seeing today, things like education

26:29

and infrastructure improvements UM

26:31

tend to fall by the wayside in favor

26:34

of building a bigger, better, more intimidating

26:37

military. Right yeah, yeah,

26:39

exactly, And then it becomes enormously

26:41

difficult for the public and

26:44

politicians to justify

26:46

those non sexy needed expenses,

26:49

like hey, let's let's

26:51

fix that bridge before it collapses.

26:53

Let's make sure to take care of the non

26:56

war expenses that we all

26:58

know we can't sorry,

27:01

it's we can do that.

27:04

I mean, yeah, right, we could blow up a bridge. Check

27:07

this out. The Interstate Highway System,

27:09

which was created

27:11

to the Highway Act of n was

27:15

definitely informed

27:17

by difficulties that the US faced

27:20

in World War Two because they didn't have a

27:22

very efficient way other than rail

27:25

to get soldiers, you know, from

27:28

the interior of America to a coast

27:30

where they would be shipped off to war. So

27:33

that's how they were able to justify it. The look,

27:35

the unethical life

27:37

hack that we are implying

27:41

here is probably best to set aloud

27:43

and bluntly. If you want

27:45

to get support for

27:48

anything from a from

27:50

a large amount of the U. S. Public, just

27:52

somehow make it about national security

27:55

or national defense. It can

27:57

be like, um, it can be

28:00

having if you're if your rhetoric

28:02

is sharp enough, I bet you could pull off

28:05

something like there needs to be an

28:08

ice cream store in every

28:11

town with a population of more than a

28:13

thousand for national security.

28:16

Somehow pull that off. Then people would

28:18

be like, yeah, I'm patriotic, Yeah

28:21

it's not. It's bigger than me

28:23

liking ice cream. You guys, that's what you would say,

28:25

and that's that's how the system works. You

28:28

can think of. So, I think we've

28:30

outlined the drawbacks

28:33

and the benefits of a war economy.

28:36

You can picture it like um

28:38

in a in a fighting

28:40

game, like in Street Fighter or something. You

28:42

choose characters based on their attributes.

28:45

Right, So a war economy

28:48

has a lot of offensive

28:50

powers, right, and it has.

28:53

It has tremendous

28:55

agility in some ways. But

28:57

then it also has some really clear weak

29:00

spots, you know, especially

29:03

on the microcosmic level, for the life of

29:05

the average person living in that country.

29:07

But you can think of it as a necessary evil.

29:10

I mean, no matter how you feel

29:12

about war, if you consider yourself a

29:14

hawk, if you consider yourself

29:17

like a conscientious subjector

29:20

the truth is this, the

29:22

US war economy saved

29:25

Europe during World War Two set

29:27

a lot of other things in motion. We're

29:30

not saying that we're all good, but

29:33

that is true. The war economy

29:35

and World War two worked

29:38

for a time. Oh

29:40

yeah, well, I guess I guess it

29:42

comes to that other question. You

29:45

know, if it did work so well

29:48

and it was profitable for

29:51

many sectors, how do you

29:53

then stop doing

29:55

that? How do you go back to what it used

29:57

to be to a peacetime economy, Like,

30:00

how did those car manufacturers then shift

30:02

back to just you know, making f one

30:04

fifties again? It seems

30:06

it seems like it would be difficult. Well, yeah,

30:08

I mean, to quote Dave Chappelle, war is

30:10

a hell of a drug, you know. I

30:12

mean, once you once you got that

30:15

taste for it, um, and you

30:17

are dependent on it, and you really it's really hard to wean

30:19

yourself off of it as a as a whole,

30:21

like in terms of rhetoric, because

30:24

it gets people elected, right in

30:26

terms of the actual infrastructure

30:28

and the actual you know, um economy,

30:30

the economic drivers that are giant

30:33

corporations like Lockheed, etcetera,

30:35

um, that are such a huge part of the economy,

30:37

and of course they do create jobs, um

30:39

and and these are all tied into

30:42

political rhetoric where people like, well, we can't

30:44

ease off of this because then everyone's gonna lose their

30:46

jobs, everyone's gonna be homeless

30:48

and destitute and starving in the streets.

30:51

We need this. This is who we are, you

30:53

know. And it's just true. It has become almost as part

30:55

of like our identity is We've

30:57

got to go bigger and harder, faster, and

30:59

stronger with all this, like you know, war manufacturing.

31:02

Yeah, what we're talking about has

31:04

gone to such an extreme degree.

31:07

Again, we're not making value judgments. This is

31:09

simply the situation. Uh. The effects

31:12

of the war economy in the US

31:14

and abroad reached a threshold

31:17

where now it might be better to ask

31:19

whether it is even possible to

31:22

h to wean ourselves off

31:25

of this strategy or this policy.

31:27

And that's a huge subject of debate in

31:30

the modern day, you know. And

31:33

Uh, to be fair, I

31:35

think we should look at the argument

31:37

for war after you hear these

31:39

facts. It might be surprising to learn

31:42

this, but there is absolutely no shortage

31:44

of scholars who argue that war

31:47

is, on a grand scale,

31:49

a good thing overall

31:51

for humanity. It's great article,

31:54

uh from Forbes, which actually

31:57

book review of a pretty

31:59

interesting book that I don't completely

32:01

agree with by a guy named Ian Morris.

32:04

The title he nailed the title though, it's war.

32:06

What is it good for? Conflict in

32:08

the progress of civilization from primates to

32:10

robots? WHOA Okay,

32:13

yeah, let's see there's a lots unpacked. Well,

32:16

let's let's look get some excerpts here. Hard

32:18

as it maybe to believe in general,

32:20

imperialism has advanced humanity

32:23

by making it safer and wealthier,

32:26

and by aspiring to a universalism

32:28

beyond tribe and ethnicity.

32:31

Okay, all right, okay,

32:34

we'll play these reindeer games. Uh

32:37

really quickly. You know what makes me think of I mean it's

32:39

it's uh sort of pop culture reference,

32:42

I guess. But uh, there is a very

32:44

well known um in certain

32:46

circles, I guess. Quote from the Fallout

32:49

video games as war. War never changes,

32:51

and in each game there's a different follow up, and they

32:53

all are serving the same thesis. The first

32:55

one is the Romans waged war to gather slaves

32:58

and wealth. Spain built an empire

33:00

for from its lust for golden territory.

33:02

Hitler shaped a battered Germany into an economic

33:05

superpower. But war never changes.

33:08

It's true, It's true. And when we

33:11

look at when when we look objectively

33:15

at strategies

33:17

like this, even if they can be horrific, you

33:20

know, the reason that they

33:22

keep being used is because

33:24

they work. They accomplish what the

33:26

people who push for

33:29

them want to accomplish. This, Uh,

33:31

this Forbes article really stood out

33:33

to me. The writer Robert

33:36

D. Kaplan agrees with

33:38

the author Ian Morris, and he goes on

33:40

to say the following this is this quotes

33:43

a little bit longer, So I'm hoping maybe we can both

33:45

troy and up on it, guys. He says,

33:48

imperialism has led ultimately

33:50

to what Morris calls a global cop

33:53

a role that the US has

33:55

played, however imperfectly since

33:57

the collapse of the Soviet Empire. America

34:00

may get into Middle Eastern quagmires, but it's

34:02

navy and air force, not to mention, the reputation

34:04

of its land forces and intelligence apparatus

34:07

project power sufficiently throughout

34:09

the world so as to reduce the level of conflict

34:12

and so far eliminate major interstate war.

34:14

And that reviewer there also

34:16

goes on to say, or

34:19

at least he expresses that he

34:21

believes the national unity

34:23

that occurs when you know there's a

34:25

time of of hot conflicts like that,

34:28

it can lead a country, such as it did for the United

34:30

States, towards a quote mass college

34:33

education, which is really

34:35

interesting, and the explosion of suburban life

34:38

and civil rights for minorities.

34:41

You can kind of think about this if you look

34:43

to the boomer generation,

34:46

right, the greatest generation, the

34:48

baby boomers and all that good stuff. Um,

34:51

that's really where you can see what happens

34:54

when there's a large expansion for

34:56

for military and military use

34:59

like this, and then it kind of comes back

35:01

to an inward facing economy.

35:04

Um, you can kind of see the the positives

35:07

there. Yeah, but those positive

35:09

I the idea there

35:12

is that that unification,

35:14

maybe also through something like serving alongside

35:17

people in the military that you wouldn't normally

35:19

meet, that engendered

35:22

this these ideas of equality,

35:24

and it made pushes for a more equitable

35:27

society more plausible,

35:29

more viable. But I it

35:32

still feels a little rose colored. Just

35:35

honestly, it feels

35:37

like they might have a horse

35:39

in the race influencing their opinions.

35:41

But there is no question that

35:44

war, well, conflict in general

35:47

is enormously profitable for

35:49

private entities, depending on which

35:51

side they're odd. Like we said, Uncle

35:54

Sam's got his wallet out. He's

35:56

he's a little drunk on global conflict.

35:59

The sky's the limit, you know what I mean.

36:01

He'll he'll reassess how

36:04

much you spent when he when

36:06

he sobers up after after

36:08

the war. Uh, defense

36:10

contractors already make billions

36:13

in a normal year and a

36:15

conflict, especially

36:17

an ongoing one, is

36:20

you can see why it would be handled

36:22

the way that pharmaceutical companies

36:25

look at a treatment regiment. It's

36:27

not a pill to cure you, but there

36:29

is a pill that will treat the symptoms so long

36:31

as you take it every day. Wow.

36:34

And you can see why flags

36:36

were raised when the war on

36:39

a concept, the War on terror was announced

36:41

back in the day, because it felt like perhaps

36:44

this was just something that would

36:47

be unending and would is a lever

36:49

that essentially got pulled somewhere that

36:51

caused the United States to have a consistent

36:53

need for new weapons, new manufacturing,

36:56

and knew a new semi

36:59

war economy. Basically. Yeah,

37:01

yeah, that's I think that's especially

37:04

a student, because a conflict,

37:06

especially an ongoing one, gives

37:08

you things that businesses love. Guaranteed

37:11

income delivered on a predictable

37:14

cycle. Right, there's you

37:16

know what will be happening and allows you to

37:18

plan, uh, plan in advance.

37:20

And there's a lot of patriotism too, because

37:23

you can also say, well, look, we

37:25

have to do this research so that we remain

37:28

the pre eminent military.

37:30

Right. I have a distinct memory. It's

37:32

a pretty naive, childlike

37:35

thing that I thought when I guess I must have

37:37

been in like early high school or maybe even

37:39

late middle school. But when

37:41

we quote unquote went to war with Iraq,

37:44

right, I remember this distinct

37:46

feeling of, oh that we're at

37:48

war and we hadn't been right

37:51

prior to that, or there have been like desert storm and all

37:53

of that. But that was maybe like a little before

37:55

my time, or it was. It didn't feel quite

37:57

the same. But then all of a sudden, it's like we are going

38:00

going to war. Um, And in

38:02

my mind, it's like I think of

38:04

war, and I think of like war at home, like

38:06

war, you know, on our own soil, And

38:08

that just doesn't happen anymore in the United

38:10

States. Not to say that it couldn't write, Uh,

38:12

it always could. That's the that's the naive

38:15

part I think, and and it works both ways.

38:17

But it's we've been in constant

38:19

conflict ever since, ever

38:22

since, and I just I

38:24

think there's no other reason than for the

38:26

economic stuff. You guys. It's

38:28

not like we're benevolent, not like we're trying to help

38:30

people out. We have a dog

38:32

in the race every time we put

38:35

our troops on the line like that, And

38:37

I think it's a lot of times a little bit obscured

38:40

um by rhetoric and all of that. But I

38:42

truly believe that it is because of this addiction

38:45

to all of the things that we're

38:47

talking about, and then the idea of like

38:50

somehow being a

38:52

new imperialist kind of era.

38:54

You know, Yeah, I don't want it to rail is too

38:56

much. But this this brings up

38:58

a question that's been on my and for

39:00

a very long time post

39:03

World War two, or even

39:06

be generous and say post Vietnam.

39:08

Does it ultimately matter if the US wins

39:10

these conflicts like to the to

39:13

the corporations, doesn't matter. No,

39:17

I don't mean unless losing

39:19

means like I was saying,

39:21

war at home, you know, war that

39:24

keeps US from producing. I don't

39:26

think they care at all. I don't think they care who the

39:28

weapons go to. We we know all the time we sell

39:30

weapons to folks

39:33

that are not quote unquote good you

39:35

know, or have the moral high ground, um,

39:38

like what's going on in uh in Israel

39:40

right now and Gaza rather right now. It's like we

39:42

I think there's a big effort in Congress

39:45

from the legislature to not sell weapons

39:48

that are going to be used for inhumane purposes,

39:50

but it happens all the time. Well

39:53

that also, that also is a

39:56

regardless of political opinions. There

39:58

that that also that

40:01

funding cycle is

40:03

a subsidization of

40:05

the U. S. Defense industry.

40:07

It's it's a weird it's a weird loophole

40:10

system. But you're

40:12

you know, you're writing cynical as it is to say.

40:15

I to also wonder,

40:18

uh whether or not

40:21

I wonder how these corporations define

40:23

victory, right is victory?

40:25

Is victory a better life for the

40:28

bystandards and the innocence who live in

40:30

these countries abroad? Or

40:32

is victory a great Q four?

40:35

I was literally about to say the same thing. I mean,

40:37

so we know that that's what it

40:39

is. I don't think people in positions

40:42

of power within a company and an organization

40:44

like that have the luxury of being able

40:46

to be humanitarians. We

40:48

see it all the time. You know. It's at the end of the

40:50

day, you can put up a good talk about

40:53

how, oh all we care about is protecting

40:55

our our citizens in this town and the other. But I think

40:57

we also know from history that at the end

41:00

the day, most people who are

41:02

beholden to shareholders and

41:04

and all of that are just looking to please

41:07

them and to continue to make more money because

41:09

companies like this require

41:12

year over year growth like forever, you

41:15

know what I mean, you can't ever stagnate or your

41:17

shareholders are gonna be like what wtf?

41:20

You know, like everyone that invests

41:22

is expecting constant growth all the

41:24

time. And the only way you can do that for

41:26

the global economy and the U. S economy,

41:29

you know, wide and all of that. Um.

41:31

Yeah, I want to I want to make one comment.

41:34

Sorry, I kind of I just kind of held

41:36

it for a minute, but I just want to backtrack for

41:38

two seconds. We're discussing this

41:40

concept of all of a sudden, we were at war in two

41:42

thousand three, I think it was two thousand three when

41:44

we invaded I Rock Um

41:47

under false pretenses. By the way, well

41:50

you just got to remember the United States

41:53

has been involved with so many conflicts

41:55

that would perhaps not be considered war,

41:57

would be more like a national emergency like

42:00

when Bill Clinton declared one while

42:03

you know, just before that when you

42:05

were a little bit younger, for an intervention

42:07

yea or or yeah,

42:10

or for an intervention like in the coast

42:12

of a war or in a lot of these other conflicts

42:14

where the U. S. Military ends up taking

42:16

part in some smaller, large

42:18

way. Um, it's just you're

42:21

correct about being at Capital

42:24

W War, but it's just weird

42:26

to think that it's it.

42:28

We have been the global police,

42:33

Globo cops. Oh god, that's good, but

42:37

that was the other guy. Okay, well it's

42:39

excellent. Um, but no, it's just true. You're you're

42:41

you're both absolutely right, and I was. I

42:43

was only pointing out that memory because

42:45

of its naivety, and also because

42:48

we really have always kind of

42:50

been at war, but they're sort of above board

42:52

war and there's like belowboard war, and it's

42:54

like we always have to have something to service

42:56

this addiction. And once

42:59

we went to a Capital W war, it

43:01

was kind of like payday, you

43:04

know, it was kind of like all bets are off, So why would we ever

43:06

want to change? Why would we ever want to not be in

43:08

this situation. I'm giving the perspective of the

43:10

CEO of you know, Globo

43:12

bomb, right right, Yeah, I

43:14

mean, it's it's true, and there are millions

43:16

of people who have laid

43:19

down their lives in

43:21

pursuit of

43:24

of doing what we believe

43:26

and what we were taught is the right things to

43:29

do. You know, like the access

43:31

powers of World War two, we're an

43:33

existential threat. There

43:36

would have been a war regardless

43:39

of what the US did. The

43:42

question is how are the waters

43:44

muddied now in the modern

43:47

day. And you have to wonder, you know, it's exercise

43:49

empathy. You have to wonder whether it feels

43:51

awkward in those boardrooms you're

43:53

sitting there, and you can you

43:56

can easily predict now after

43:58

your last meeting, just how much money

44:00

you will make, but you are unable

44:02

to predict just how many people will

44:05

die as a result. People

44:07

who are your fellow citizens, and

44:10

people who live oceans away that you will

44:12

never meet. This is not meant to paint with too

44:14

broad or to brutal a brush.

44:16

There are a lot of defense contractors who

44:18

will, in good faith, sincerely

44:20

argue, you know, hey, look, I'm working toward

44:23

a greater good. Sure, business

44:25

is business, but I'm not out here trying

44:27

to kill people. I'm out here trying

44:29

to build better ways to

44:32

protect lives

44:34

of citizens of people who

44:36

are from my country who are in the arms

44:38

services. And this defense

44:40

contractors in other countries will argue

44:43

this as well. This is not just us rationale.

44:46

But there's no way around it. Though, I mean,

44:48

like that can be true, you can believe it, but

44:50

there's no way around it. You are also making

44:52

a ton of money in the process. The

44:54

defense budget is the capital

44:57

s spice, and just like in doom,

44:59

the spy ice has to flow the

45:02

shadow of orwell in eternal

45:04

war looms for

45:06

good reason. Let's take

45:08

a moment for a word from our sponsor,

45:11

and then let's look at the math. Like, just for a

45:13

second, we're gonna look at the math just for a

45:16

sex trap in. We're going

45:18

mathematics, all

45:25

right, and we're back. Here are the

45:27

maths. It was that

45:30

you're not that was your idea. So

45:34

so the next part might not make all

45:37

of us so happy. Military

45:39

spending right now, as we record

45:41

from October one

45:44

to the end of September this year

45:47

is going to ring in at around nine

45:49

hundred and thirty four billion

45:51

dollars that we know of, so that

45:53

doesn't count black bag stuff, which

45:55

is inevitable. This

45:57

means that military spending is

45:59

the second largest expense

46:02

in the entirety of the federal budget. The

46:04

only thing that beats it the Social security.

46:07

With that much money involved, that many

46:09

people involved. It's really difficult

46:11

to articulate the full extent

46:15

of the ripple effects here, especially when

46:17

you consider that the d O d that the

46:19

Department of Defense is the single largest

46:21

employer inside the United

46:23

States, and it makes sense depending

46:26

if you think about its size. There over one

46:28

point four million human

46:30

beings on active duty, and that's around

46:33

seven hundred and eighteen thousand civilian

46:35

personnel, so that that's two

46:38

separate groups. Just so we're understanding

46:40

this, there's another one point

46:43

one million people who

46:45

are in the National Guard, which is another

46:47

separate thing, National Garden

46:49

Reserve are being grouped together there. And that's

46:51

not even counting the other millions of people

46:54

who are employed in those other related industries

46:56

that we've been describing here, your Raytheon's, your Lockyeds,

46:59

your other giant manufacturers.

47:02

It's it's crazy to think that there

47:04

are so many people working for

47:07

this single industry. Really

47:09

yeah, because it's kind of like a a

47:12

meta industry and uber industry.

47:14

It's an industry of industries. There's

47:17

a very complicated Venn diagram

47:19

there that I don't I don't

47:21

want us to have to draw it, but if

47:23

you want to, please do draw

47:25

the ven diagram. What you see is this meta

47:28

industry and send it to us

47:30

uh conspiracy I Heart radio dot com.

47:33

The thing is, Matt, you're you're absolutely

47:36

right, just for

47:38

a small, small snapshot aerospace

47:41

and defense, that industry alone. That

47:45

that doesn't count as the military budget.

47:48

That's a separate three and ninety

47:50

six billion dollars. It's an event

47:53

diagram, you know, because there they work hand in

47:55

hand. But that figure there are nice

47:57

six billion. It's about one the

48:00

GDP of the US, which

48:02

doesn't sound like a lot until you realize we're

48:04

talking about the g d P of the U S,

48:06

which is one of the biggest numbers. So

48:09

while people might want not

48:12

want to say, hey, let's

48:14

keep up those foreign interventions, they

48:17

definitely don't want to stop building the weapons

48:19

and the hardware that inherently

48:21

makes those interventions possible.

48:24

If the budget and the need this

48:26

is a very ugly truth and a lot of people don't like

48:28

to hear it. If the budget and the need

48:30

for these things evaporated

48:33

overnight, it would be an

48:35

unprecedented economic

48:38

catastrophe. The Great

48:40

Depression would have its name changed.

48:43

It would just be the first one you

48:45

know, or something like that, or it would be the

48:47

old depression now or in the new

48:49

depression, because millions of people

48:52

are out of work. Everything is closing

48:54

down with like we can't even project

48:57

the ripple effects. It's like, if you talk

48:59

about the oil industry ending overnight,

49:02

does that mean that there's a certain callousness

49:05

at play here? Like shouldn't we be able

49:07

to predict or model this type

49:09

of stuff? Or like what this type of behavior

49:12

kind of creates the ripple effects?

49:14

We should know and we should know that

49:16

we're too dependent on it. But but I feel like

49:18

there's a certain kind of like wilful ignorance

49:22

towards that by citizens,

49:24

by lawmakers, and by

49:26

the CEOs of these companies, or maybe the CEOs

49:28

are the ones that know the most but just give the

49:31

least amount of maybe

49:34

like I don't know, I'm sorry if I'm breaching here.

49:36

I just feel like there should be

49:38

a scenario where we should be able to model

49:41

this stuff out and and not be

49:44

completely surprised when hey, so look

49:46

go it turns out we're all war

49:48

junkies now. But you see, the

49:51

companies able to create

49:53

such models and world simulations

49:56

are all in the defense industry, So

49:58

there's no incentive to create

50:00

one that would prevent it. Well,

50:03

I mean, that's that's the thing, right, like why

50:06

why be the architect of your own demise?

50:09

Which is a pretentious way to put it, but

50:12

it is something to think about and it's very valid

50:14

concerned. I mean this,

50:19

this is an argument that goes across the

50:21

world, defense industries, across

50:23

the world, and I think it is very good

50:25

point. I see it as the

50:28

no you first problem. Won't

50:30

explain what we mean in a second. But there's

50:33

this belief that the US, as a

50:36

global superpower, has

50:38

been able to project force in

50:40

a way that prevents larger

50:43

conflicts, so you're you're having

50:45

smaller conflicts to prevent

50:48

future disaster. And the argument says

50:50

that without the US as global

50:52

cop whereas the world's policeman, the

50:55

human species would enter a chaotic

50:58

era of unrestrained power graphs. You

51:00

know what I mean, Your your Russia,

51:02

you want Crimea, you want the rest of

51:05

Ukraine, He's gonna stop

51:07

you. The US is out of the game. So

51:10

is that possible? Is that real rationale

51:13

that not having this power,

51:16

not having this friendliness

51:18

towards or this openness towards global

51:20

conflict, is that on

51:22

balance a good thing. Some argue

51:25

yes, and that last point often

51:28

is one of the primary arguments for

51:31

maintaining at least some vestiges

51:33

of a wartime economy. So,

51:36

in short, is the US

51:39

addicted to war? Is the US economically

51:42

dependent on the conflict business?

51:46

The answer is yes, but which

51:49

is kind of irritating. But it's true

51:51

the US yes, But

51:55

yes, yes Dillard,

52:00

But the uh, it

52:02

appears that this country is in a very real

52:04

way partially dependent on

52:06

global conflicts continuing,

52:09

or at least the threat of that conflict

52:11

occurring. But there's a matter of perspective.

52:14

It's cost benefit. Or is the US

52:16

straight up dependent on war because

52:19

so so much of the economy profits from

52:21

it? You can call that the war monger argument.

52:24

Or is the US dependent on war because

52:26

not creating and not maintaining

52:28

these capabilities leads to a greater

52:31

problem, more conflict, more disaster,

52:33

more death. We could call that the

52:35

peacekeeper argument. Are we

52:37

to quote rust Coal, the bad

52:40

man who keeps the other bad man from the

52:42

door. I haven't

52:44

seen that in a long time. That's the sound

52:46

of him carving up his lone star cans

52:49

takes takes him the whole season for

52:51

you to know what he's carving such

52:53

a good really is a great show. The

52:56

rest of him couldn't come close. Second season

52:59

sucked, Third season was good. First season was

53:01

singularly great in my opinion. But

53:03

no, it's is that what this

53:05

is about? Are we who? What bad

53:07

men? Are we even keeping from the door, you

53:09

know, the other ones? That's the thing

53:12

I mean, is it is it an illusion? Is

53:14

it an it? Four ask kind of manipulation

53:17

of all of our like our attention to

53:19

say, oh, we're we're under threat. It seems

53:21

to me like the threat that we're under stuff that

53:23

that this large scale warfare stuff

53:26

has a hard time even dealing with, you

53:28

know, like suicide bombers and like things

53:30

that we have a hard time predicting, and that you

53:32

can't just nuke out of existence because

53:34

the moment you do that, then another

53:37

crop pops up. Or the way they're organized,

53:40

like it's hard to you know, kind of nip it

53:42

in the butt in that way. Right. Yeah,

53:44

it's a good point. I mean, the the logical

53:46

problem with war as a

53:49

policy is one of is

53:51

really one of prejudice or maybe pre

53:53

existing perspective or framework. Is a

53:55

good way to put it. It's a little

53:57

nerdy, But you guys who are saying, if

53:59

we to find something as a war more

54:02

countries than we are automatically dictating,

54:05

certain policies were also triggering

54:07

some legal mechanisms. Those policies

54:09

mean that our go toos for resolving

54:12

things are going to be coercive forces.

54:14

Whether that's sending a military force

54:17

actual hot conflict, whether

54:19

that's helping a country militarize

54:22

its police, whether it's the prison

54:24

system. The list goes on. And

54:27

I heard once war

54:29

called the great simplifier,

54:31

and it wasn't a compliment, to be clear.

54:34

It's a simplifier because

54:37

it makes your choices and your strategies

54:40

uh a lot more clear cut, even

54:42

if they are not the best approach. If your

54:45

immediate policy is use the hammer,

54:47

then it becomes incredibly easy

54:50

to treat every disagreement as a nail,

54:52

ignoring the complex facts that led us

54:54

to that situation in the first place.

54:56

It becomes even more tricky when profits

54:59

get involved. Someone is saying, well, what

55:01

are we supposed to do with all these habits We're just

55:03

gonna not use The next you're gonna say

55:05

we have to stop making hammers. God, we're

55:07

a hamm a factory. We're

55:10

gonna need more nails, guys, We're gonna need

55:12

more nails. And it's also the kind of thing where

55:15

we've been part of different sized companies,

55:18

and I think what happens when you have a large

55:20

enough sized company is nuance

55:22

gets lost in the shuffle constantly.

55:25

Uh, And you have to have a blunt instrument

55:28

approach to all of these things. And that's what happens

55:30

with war and and and instead where maybe

55:32

like we might you know, miss

55:34

a podcast episode or lose a couple

55:36

of doubt, whatever, you know, And in the government

55:39

scenario version of this, people die because

55:42

of that blunt instrument approach. And because of that lack

55:44

of nuance and that lack of empathy and that

55:46

lack of seeing you know, the collateral

55:49

damage of of the choices that lead to these

55:51

economic booms, right yeah, And

55:53

and again it's like the old proverb, you know, when

55:56

elephants wage war, the grass it's the grass

55:58

that suffers, you

56:01

guys. And that scenario where

56:04

the grass, I think, Matt, no, wait

56:06

wait, wait, hold on the hammer

56:09

factory scenario, we're

56:11

one scenario past, okay, got it, Okay,

56:16

So it

56:18

just lends it lends itself to another whole

56:21

uh section of conspiracy theory that we aren't

56:23

even touching on this episode. But this

56:26

concept of we've got all these hammers

56:28

and we're a hammer factory. We can't stop

56:31

making hammers right now, and we we've

56:33

got this surplus of inventory. We

56:35

gotta find nails for these hammers

56:37

to be needed for. This is the concept

56:39

that then the interests in the

56:41

factory, or the factory itself or

56:44

whoever owns the factory, then has

56:47

an economic interest

56:49

in creating problems for

56:51

those hammers to be used for so

56:54

i e. Conflicts,

56:57

militants, disasters.

57:00

Uh. That's a scary concept

57:02

and it doesn't mean it's a happening or it's real or

57:04

anyone would ever do that, but it does

57:06

mean there would be an economic incentive

57:09

to do it. Yeah. Yeah,

57:11

if that if that can If that observation

57:15

is confusing or makes anybody a little bit uncomfortable,

57:18

consider that. Consider the sheer

57:20

amount of time and energy that

57:23

prison industry

57:26

lobbyists spend on

57:28

writing on having inputs

57:30

on incarceration laws right like

57:33

mandatory sentencing, things like

57:35

that. There

57:37

there are conflicting motivations, but

57:40

they add to this the unfortunate

57:42

truth that again, war regardless

57:45

of the ideologies it's dressed up, it regardless

57:48

of whether or not the politicians

57:50

believe what they are telling you. Wars

57:53

ultimately and will always be about the

57:55

control of resources. National

57:57

security has never been

58:00

as simple as let's make sure the

58:02

enemy forces, you know, don't bomb Pascagoula

58:05

or Pittsburgh or Keepsie

58:07

or whatever. I'm just thinking of p towns.

58:10

Um, that came out weird, but you

58:12

know what I mean, Like, it's not just about protecting

58:16

these physical assets. It can

58:19

Providence. Yeah, actually they actually actually call

58:21

Providence p Town. Really that's

58:24

a weird flex. Okay, good

58:27

to know, good to know us. So

58:30

it's also national security is also

58:32

stuff like let's ensure that

58:34

our important businesses continue

58:37

to function as normal. That's why so much

58:39

attention is put on the straight of hoar moves in

58:41

the past. Uh, they you know, they're

58:44

countless war games. It's always under

58:46

surveillance because people don't

58:48

want that straight to

58:50

get blocked, to worry about it messing with oil

58:53

prices. Sure, it's also why

58:55

it was such a you know, um, I mean,

58:57

obviously there are very real reasons that this was the case,

58:59

but um, political uh

59:01

divisiveness over shutting down businesses

59:04

during COVID, over when businesses would

59:06

return, because it's a political stance

59:08

that like no businesses everything it must

59:10

maintain. And I know that that literally

59:12

connects back to people's livelihoods and people's

59:15

lives and um, you know it's

59:17

all that. But I do feel like it was made

59:20

to be a political stance, and

59:22

I think that's because it sort of goes

59:24

into that sort of hawkishness, that mentality

59:27

of businesses. Everything all else

59:29

is secondary. We must continue

59:32

making our GDP grow. I

59:35

mean, that's why national defense maybe

59:37

in uh Guatemala the nineteen

59:39

fifties was something more like, let's

59:41

make sure agricultural policies are in our

59:43

favor, you know what I mean, and if

59:45

the current government isn't cool with that, let's

59:48

let's make a new government. Or that's why

59:50

you know, at one point, well

59:52

at two points in history, the United

59:55

Kingdom said, let's make sure China

59:57

knows they need to buy our opium

1:00:00

like they have to do it, and

1:00:02

we'll go to war for it if we have to, We'll do it

1:00:05

twice. The list, the list

1:00:07

goes on. National security is one

1:00:09

of those words, that has

1:00:11

a lot of ambiguous meanings. There's

1:00:13

a lot of wiggle room, and it would be

1:00:15

nice if more politicians

1:00:18

and pundits were honest about that problem.

1:00:21

But I want to go back to something, uh real

1:00:23

quick before we close up. Two

1:00:26

things, really, the the idea of unwinnable

1:00:28

wars and the question

1:00:31

of what what next? You

1:00:33

know, how to address this dependency

1:00:36

or this addiction, whatever you wanna call it.

1:00:39

First, absolutely right,

1:00:41

one of us said earlier, there was a big

1:00:43

shift when the US began fighting

1:00:46

wars against ideas, a

1:00:48

war on drugs, a war on

1:00:51

terrorism. Oddly enough, I

1:00:54

think for a second declared

1:00:56

war on poverty, but that that went

1:00:58

to the wayside very quickly. These

1:01:01

are unwinnable wars. And when we say winnable,

1:01:03

we're not saying that they are automatically waged

1:01:06

in bad faith. And we're absolutely

1:01:08

not alleging that independent

1:01:10

that individual people involved

1:01:12

in these conflicts or people who join

1:01:15

the armed forces are somehow inherently

1:01:17

bad, absolutely not. Instead,

1:01:21

a problem with these wars on ideas,

1:01:24

the thing that makes them unwinnable

1:01:26

is that they have no definitive, discernible

1:01:30

end point. You can never you

1:01:32

know, go on an aircraft carrier with a giant

1:01:34

banner and declare victory over something like Terry.

1:01:37

I mean, you could do it, but it would

1:01:39

be a symbolic gesture at best. You

1:01:42

know, um, And it's like, what

1:01:44

what is I mean? I know this is sort of different than

1:01:46

we're talking about, but the war on drugs is one that's always stuck

1:01:48

in my cross, like what does that look

1:01:50

like? What does winning the war on drug

1:01:53

look like? Does that mean eradicating all drugs

1:01:55

forever and all time? Does

1:01:57

that mean? I mean, do you not acknowledge that by

1:02:00

waging this war, people are gonna find more creative

1:02:02

ways of doing the thing that you look at prohibition?

1:02:04

I mean it literally created a

1:02:06

whole sector of crime because you're

1:02:08

trying to force people to do a thing. It

1:02:10

does doesn't work. It doesn't

1:02:13

And I think to your point, then it points to

1:02:15

the idea that they knew that it wouldn't work. It

1:02:17

is not about working, it's not about winning.

1:02:20

It's about creating the need that

1:02:22

you can then fill by selling stuff,

1:02:24

whether it's new ideas or whether it's products.

1:02:27

It's a nail factory, it's a

1:02:29

nail factor. Oh well, and these

1:02:32

these unwinnable wars go on and

1:02:34

on and on, and the defense

1:02:36

spending that so much

1:02:39

of our economy relies upon that

1:02:41

spice, Oh it flows, and

1:02:44

we have always been at war with East Asia,

1:02:46

etcetera, etcetera. But like

1:02:48

with just this brief, you know, we're going

1:02:50

long here, Sorry, Paul, But

1:02:53

with just this brief exploration of the many,

1:02:55

many, many factors that intertwined

1:02:58

the US economy will conflict

1:03:00

on one level or another, it

1:03:03

is sadly, tragically clear that

1:03:05

there is no answer right

1:03:07

now. There's no answer that is simultaneously

1:03:10

realistic, simple and

1:03:12

achievable. Because this is this

1:03:14

is what it meant when I said no you first,

1:03:18

This is the problem. The world's great

1:03:20

powers are in a standoff

1:03:23

corporate as well as state level.

1:03:26

The first ones to fold, the first ones to

1:03:28

get you know, clean from

1:03:30

war, are going to suffer enormous

1:03:32

consequences. Like you're like like Matt,

1:03:35

Let's say you're your defense contractor

1:03:37

a get a name? Is it like Mad

1:03:39

Industries, Metallic Mattheon?

1:03:44

Alright, No, your defense, your

1:03:46

your defense corporation? Be you

1:03:49

got a cool name? Oh how about

1:03:53

Brown, Tron Brown and

1:03:57

these these Matthiod and Brown

1:03:59

Tron are neck and neck right.

1:04:02

Uh, they're kind of like a Boeing air bus

1:04:04

thing. Come

1:04:06

on out right there the two two

1:04:09

giants that can build stuff. Well, let's

1:04:11

say Mattheon says,

1:04:15

we're gonna stop associating ourselves with military

1:04:17

contracts. We want to do sort of a swords

1:04:20

the plowshares thing

1:04:23

police robots from now on, right,

1:04:26

Yeah, something harmless

1:04:29

domestic. Yes, so so uh

1:04:32

Mattheon pivots. And this makes

1:04:34

Brown Tron's uh day

1:04:36

because Mattheon stocks plummet.

1:04:39

Brown Tron snatches up all

1:04:41

these contracts, all this newly available

1:04:43

funding, their stocks explode.

1:04:46

It's amazing. Uh. And there

1:04:49

you know, the Wall Street is publishing

1:04:51

articles like is there anything Brown Tron can't

1:04:53

do? And the answer appears to be no.

1:04:56

Actually they are nailing it. That's what

1:04:58

I would be at least saying in my beach to my shareholders.

1:05:02

I would mean it, you know, from

1:05:04

the heart when I said it.

1:05:07

But the joke's on you because

1:05:09

in in fifteen years, law

1:05:11

enforcement robots are going to be all the rage,

1:05:14

and nobody's gonna need weapons of ore

1:05:16

anymore because of the

1:05:18

nano, the nanites and

1:05:20

all that. So yeah,

1:05:23

whatever, Uh, we're gonna

1:05:25

be fine over here. Whatever my company

1:05:27

was called, Wait Wait, Wait to play the long

1:05:29

game. I love

1:05:32

it. This happens with countries too.

1:05:34

I mean a country. We talked about

1:05:36

this with nuclear disarmament. A country that

1:05:38

dismantles its military capabilities

1:05:41

may well see itself become a vassal state

1:05:44

of another nation that wasn't

1:05:46

so quick to give up the bloody

1:05:48

game. And it's it's a problem.

1:05:50

It's the nuclear problem writ large.

1:05:53

It's the movie moment. It's the standoff.

1:05:56

Someone always says, put down your gun,

1:05:59

and someone else always says you first.

1:06:02

That is where this species

1:06:04

is at. And oftentimes when

1:06:06

the other person actually does put down their gun, the

1:06:08

other party just picks it up and shoots them in the face

1:06:10

with it. And you know,

1:06:12

it's it's a it's a lesson from fiction,

1:06:15

but it has its basis

1:06:18

in the real world. And that should that

1:06:20

should disturb people, quite honestly.

1:06:23

And that's where we leave it today. Folks.

1:06:25

What do you think is war and

1:06:27

economic necessity for the US? What

1:06:30

about other countries? And if

1:06:32

we are indeed in a war economy

1:06:35

or like a hybrid war economy,

1:06:38

should we try as a nation

1:06:40

to move towards a different system.

1:06:43

What what would that be? You know what I

1:06:45

mean? I I don't, I

1:06:47

don't know. Uh, there's

1:06:50

there was one example. I was looking

1:06:52

at examples of unorthodox kind

1:06:54

of economic prioritization and systems,

1:06:57

and probably one of the most interesting

1:06:59

is but TN, which rates itself

1:07:02

not on g d P but

1:07:05

on g d H gross domestic

1:07:07

happiness something like that. Uh,

1:07:09

and they still have that sounds nice, right, yeah

1:07:12

it does, and they still have their problems

1:07:14

with you know, persecution of ethnic

1:07:16

minorities and so on. But how

1:07:20

what what is the answer? Conspiracies and conspiracy

1:07:23

theories abound here. We've I think

1:07:25

clearly proven that to yes,

1:07:28

to some degree, Uh,

1:07:31

conflict does function as an economic

1:07:33

necessity for different sectors of the US.

1:07:36

What's the alternative? How do you get there? Do

1:07:39

we want to get there in

1:07:41

the first place? I mean, the inner

1:07:44

flower child in me says, yes, please,

1:07:46

let's let's get past war. But it

1:07:49

doesn't doesn't seem possible. But we'd love to

1:07:51

hear your ideas for sure, So go

1:07:53

ahead and uh pick up the gun

1:07:56

and reach out to us on Twitter, Facebook,

1:07:58

where we're conspiracy stuff or conspiracy

1:08:01

stuff show over there on Instagram.

1:08:03

We also have a phone number. That's

1:08:05

right. You can pick up the horn, which is,

1:08:07

in my opinion, uh, superior

1:08:10

to the gun uh. And you can give us a call at

1:08:12

one eight three three S T d W y t K.

1:08:14

Leave your message at the sound of Ben's

1:08:16

dulcet tones. Three minutes is the time. That

1:08:19

is your time to do with what you will. If

1:08:21

you need more than three minutes, we have some other means

1:08:23

of communication that might be a little better suited

1:08:25

to your needs. That's right. You can send us

1:08:27

a good old fashioned email where

1:08:30

we are conspiracy at i heeart

1:08:32

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1:08:52

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1:08:54

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