0:00

From UFOs to psychic powers

0:02

and government conspiracies. History

0:04

is riddled with unexplained events. You

0:07

can turn back now or learn

0:09

the stuff they don't want you to know. A

0:12

production of I Heart Radio. Hello,

0:24

and welcome back to the show. My name is Nuel.

0:27

Our colleague Matt is on Adventures.

0:29

They call me Ben. We're joined as always

0:31

with our super producer Paul Mission controlled

0:34

decade. Most importantly, you are

0:36

you, You are here, and that makes

0:38

this the stuff they don't want

0:40

you to know. Quick disclaimer

0:43

at the top. Today's episode contains

0:45

at times graphic material involving

0:47

coercion, brainwashing, and sexual

0:49

abuse. As such, this may not be appropriate

0:52

for all listeners, but we can assure

0:55

you this is one

0:57

doozy of a story, and it's one

0:59

that a lot of people in the US might not know

1:01

no other than a few articles

1:04

by Broadly and Vice. Right, Yeah,

1:06

and you know precious little about it. And

1:09

very quickly Um entered into a deep

1:11

dive that became kind of a nose dive

1:14

down the rabbit hole of this uh

1:16

infamous, fascinating,

1:18

complex and most likely diabolical

1:21

dude named Odd non act. Yes,

1:24

our exploration takes us across the Atlantic

1:26

all the way to Turkey. It's the story of Occult's

1:29

creationism and controversy.

1:31

So let's learn a little bit

1:33

about the now infamous Odd non

1:36

Actar. Here are the facts.

1:38

You may have heard of this guy called Odd non

1:41

Hoka, or you may have even read

1:43

one of his many books and pamphlets

1:45

written under the pen name Haroon

1:48

Yaha. Uh spoiler, We're

1:50

pretty sure he didn't write a lot of these himself. But

1:53

he was born in Ankara, Turkey, in

1:55

nineteen fifty six, and he was

1:57

growing up in a pretty well

2:00

to do, pretty connected secular

2:02

family. But he studied a

2:04

lot of religious ideology

2:07

growing up. This was something

2:09

that always captivated him,

2:11

even as he went to school quick

2:13

secondary and far less important. Disclaimer.

2:16

I am now ensconced in my new house

2:18

and there is some construction going on outside

2:20

on a deck situation, and so if you hear some banging

2:23

or saws or something intermittently, I

2:25

please extend my my deepest apologies.

2:28

But back to act Uh. In nineteen

2:30

seventy nine, he went to Istanbul

2:32

and enrolled in my Mars sent On Fine

2:35

Arts University, where he

2:37

wanted to study architecture,

2:39

specifically interior architecture, which

2:41

I guess is that is that how far removed is that from

2:43

interior design. I think it's

2:45

kind of the same thing, right, I was wondering

2:47

the same thing. It might be specifically

2:50

related to the construction of mosque.

2:52

You know, the interior of a mosque is so

2:54

can be so beautifully.

2:58

Yeah, it might be that it would be almost

3:00

a discipline that would be very specific to that part

3:02

of the world. Yes, agreed. We

3:05

want to give a shout out to a work

3:07

called the Mahdi. Where's our money?

3:09

This is a great source online about

3:12

this guy and his rise and

3:14

fall. So while he was in

3:16

university, like you were saying, no, studying

3:19

interior architecture, he also becomes

3:21

involved in religious activism.

3:24

This was a really interesting time for anyone

3:26

in Turkey to be a religious activist

3:28

because just one year later, in nineteen

3:30

eighty, there was a coup and a

3:33

military junta took over. Things

3:36

were tense. Turkey was highly

3:38

politically culturally unstable

3:40

at this time, and the like the

3:43

two overall groups that are

3:45

beefing are secular forces

3:48

that want, in their opinion, they want to modernize

3:50

the country by which they may make it

3:52

less religious and then there

3:55

was a wave of Islamic

3:58

fundamentalist or you could even say

4:00

militants, and they believed that that a

4:02

secular Turkey represented

4:04

a turning away from God. So

4:07

these people both are very short in

4:09

their ideology and they're very

4:11

much playing highlander rules. There can

4:14

be only one at the throne of government.

4:16

And during this time Octar there's

4:19

a there's a mosque near his school, it's

4:21

the Mala Mosque, and he goes there

4:24

and meets with other people, other religious

4:28

scholars and students and activists,

4:30

and according to some of

4:32

his ex colleagues, he later

4:35

becomes something of a religious

4:37

zealot, but not what you're

4:40

thinking of, because his zealotry becomes

4:43

very unique, as we'll find.

4:46

Yeah, he's essentially like UM,

4:49

trying to reform in some ways

4:52

Islam, specifically as it pertains

4:54

to women. The idea of women

4:57

UH, the way women are treated in women's

4:59

place ins the society UM,

5:01

which is interesting on its face, right because I mean,

5:03

we know that like a big controversy surrounding

5:06

hardline fundamentalist Muslim

5:09

UH culture is often that you know, the treatment

5:12

of women is this is very you know, retrograde.

5:15

UM. The idea that they are required

5:18

to kind of cover their bodies in order to not

5:20

act as temptations to men that they are somehow

5:23

like Uh, I guess vessels

5:26

of sin in some ways. I mean again, please,

5:29

any Muslims out there, fundamentals Muslims

5:31

out there, Um, this is zero shade

5:33

on anyone's religious choice. I just think these

5:35

are observations that most anybody could

5:37

make. But if I'm getting it wrong, please call me

5:39

on it. But my point is, two

5:42

women who live in this culture, I could see

5:44

how this type of thinking would be

5:46

interesting potentially. Yeah,

5:49

say, there's a there's a guide named edyt

5:51

Uxel who will will mention a couple

5:53

of times here. Uh. And according to him,

5:56

Uh, he's the one who at the

5:58

Mola Mosque, Gay oak Tar

6:00

this idea when he said, you know, there's not a requirement

6:03

where his job in the Koran oak

6:06

Tar took this and ran with it. And I agree with your

6:08

point that this could be um an

6:10

attractive and maybe more

6:13

free seeming belief system

6:15

for a lot of a lot of younger

6:17

folks who maybe felt oppressed by society.

6:20

He wasn't, by the way,

6:22

preaching to just anyone

6:24

at this time like a lot of

6:27

charismatic cult leaders. He

6:29

is targeting folks. He's targeting people

6:32

from well connected, wealthy families

6:35

in Istanbul, folks who are young and

6:37

impressionable and have access to money

6:40

and power. Not everybody agreed

6:42

with him, especially as his beliefs

6:44

got more, let's say, idiosyncratic

6:47

over time. But everybody agreed on

6:49

one thing, hot Dog. They said,

6:51

this guy is charismatic.

6:53

You know what I mean. You could hang out, you could have tea with

6:56

him. You might not agree with him, but he'll make

6:58

you laugh. He'll give you something to think about. You

7:00

know, he's got a

7:02

a public personality,

7:04

you know, larger than life. He's here, does

7:06

he's he's fond of like dancing,

7:09

you kind of like techno music and

7:12

uh find suits. He has a very

7:14

distinct kind of haircut

7:17

and and the way he styles his beard.

7:19

I mean, he really is this kind of almost

7:22

televangelist kind of figure. It's

7:24

it's a different style than what where used toe

7:26

here with like these prosperity theology

7:28

uh folks that you might see on TV, these

7:31

mega churches. But it's got a similar

7:33

air to that, don't you think, Ben, Yeah,

7:35

I agree, and that there are a lot of analogs

7:37

we can draw, because, as we'll find, he is

7:40

extremely interested in

7:44

preaching through mass media.

7:46

Right. And he starts, you know,

7:48

he starts in the eighties, which very different

7:50

media landscape. Sometime between

7:53

night two and four,

7:55

he forms a solid group of

7:58

followers. They cohere to a

8:00

group of about thirty and then this

8:02

group starts growing because

8:04

he's looking. He's recruiting.

8:07

He's having his followers recruit kids

8:10

from a private high school. And

8:12

just like the other ones, they're well

8:14

can they're from well connected, well to do families.

8:17

But a bonus for Oaktar, they're

8:20

also even younger. So

8:22

he preaches what he calls a refined

8:25

and urbanized version of

8:27

existing teachings to the children

8:29

of the privileged class. And he says,

8:32

look, we're gonna avoid all

8:34

the stuffy, old, buttoned

8:36

up traditions. We're gonna remember

8:38

what's really important. Here are the things

8:41

we fight against. We fight against left

8:43

wing ideologies like Marxism and

8:45

communism. But of all the things I

8:47

hate the most as Altar, the most

8:49

dangerous thing ever is evolutionary

8:52

theory and Darwinism. They're

8:55

the devil's back door. Oh

8:58

my goodness. Okay, And this makes sense,

9:01

right, I mean, well, okay, let me

9:03

walk that back just to slightly in

9:05

the context of fundamental

9:08

belief in a singular God as

9:10

a creator. Uh, Darwinism

9:13

is this is a little bit of a sticky

9:15

wicket, right, It's a little inconvenient. Um.

9:18

Of course, we know there are plenty of Christians

9:21

who believe in God and believe

9:23

in you know, the Bible, in

9:25

whether it can complete strict constructionist

9:27

version or you know, more like comparable

9:30

or like kind of like an allegory, who also believe

9:32

in evolution. There are plenty of scientists who are

9:34

devout religious people who believe in

9:37

science just as strongly as they believe

9:39

in religion. Um. And given

9:41

that he's this guy Actar is going for a more

9:44

quote unquote progressive form of Islam,

9:46

you think maybe that would include

9:49

science and be like, oh no, we we we we allow

9:51

women to be treated, uh, not

9:53

only as equals, but that we'll get to this as superior.

9:56

But also yes, science can coexist with No,

9:59

that is not the direct and he chose. In

10:01

fact, in fact, he's he's almost

10:03

more before people thought of him in the context

10:06

of this group and as this kind of de

10:08

facto cult leader. He really was considered

10:11

a religious scholar of

10:14

uh of creationism. Yeah, exactly,

10:16

And you know this, Uh, this is a

10:18

point that I know will be important to many

10:21

of our listeners who are themselves of

10:23

the Islamic faith. Uh.

10:26

Overall, Islam

10:28

is quite diverse, more so than I think

10:30

many people outside of Islam understand.

10:33

And just like you said, no, Islamic

10:36

views on evolution have have

10:39

a wide range, and he is very

10:41

far on the creationism

10:43

and of the spectrum. But people

10:46

like him and they respect him as a scholar

10:49

up to a point. And at this point you would

10:51

say, you know, if you're an average person in Turkey

10:53

might say, so far, so good. I

10:56

mean, many people of the Islamic

10:58

faith might disagree with him on various

11:00

points. Some people were already

11:02

saying this is getting kind of cultic.

11:05

But in general, people can

11:07

believe what they want, so long as they're

11:09

not hurting anyone. Uh, that's

11:11

the idea. Yeah, or involved

11:14

in some egregious level

11:16

of organized crime or criminal

11:18

activity, um, which you know,

11:20

you could argue has varying degrees of quote unquote

11:23

hurting people. Um, there are no victims

11:25

crimes most of the time. But uh, yeah,

11:27

it's the thing. My question for you, Ben is did

11:30

he pursue any higher degrees

11:32

beyond his interior architecture studies

11:35

that would allow him to like officially be

11:37

considered like a member of like the kind

11:39

of literati or was this sort of like he was like a

11:41

self styled almost like armchair uh

11:44

scholar, Like you mean like

11:46

when some preachers

11:48

here in the US just start calling themselves

11:50

bishops. Yes, that yea.

11:53

So he started writing

11:56

a lot or publishing a lot, uh,

11:58

we should say, and we're talking

12:00

about pamphlets like the Theory of Evolution,

12:03

which is his mysticism and science

12:05

sounding words to kind

12:07

of attack evolutionary theory. But to

12:10

your question, in he

12:13

enrolls at the philosophy

12:15

department of Istanbul University, which

12:17

is quite prestigious, and this

12:19

gets him more news coverage, This

12:21

gets him closer right to attaining

12:24

that kind of higher degree. But

12:27

for him, more important now is

12:29

the goal of acquiring more followers,

12:32

particularly impressionable

12:35

female followers from

12:38

wealthy backgrounds. And then

12:41

of course he starts

12:43

getting into uh

12:46

some pretty wacky do conspiracy theories

12:48

and he's got an audience for it. Yeah,

12:51

yeah, there shouldn't need an audience

12:53

for it. And what he's doing is he's

12:56

making some pretty hot takes, uh,

12:58

in the interest of of turning heads.

13:01

Right. Um. He publishes a page

13:04

book titled Judaism

13:06

and Freemasonry, UM,

13:08

which I believe, if I'm not mistaken, man had

13:11

some pretty anti Semitic bos

13:14

to it. Oh yeah,

13:16

and it was. It's Uh, it's

13:18

one of those books that it's

13:21

not super original. It's kind of like his

13:23

own take on the classics. It's

13:25

a it's sort of a cover album of

13:28

the idea that some hidden group

13:31

influences the media, academia,

13:33

and the political structures of not just

13:35

Turkey but the world to quote

13:38

erode the spiritual, religious,

13:40

and moral values of the Turkish people and

13:42

make them like animals. So boom,

13:44

now we got some hate speech. And you're right, he

13:47

is courting attention and controversy

13:50

and this gets him, you know, the

13:52

clicks figuratively speaking,

13:54

so he starts leaning into it. And

13:56

unfortunately, this kind of anti Semitism

13:59

isn't all that unusual in Turkey.

14:01

But remember there's still that secular

14:04

religious tension, so secular

14:06

authorities have their eyes on him, They

14:08

have their eyes on anyone they think might

14:11

um. Try to have

14:13

another coup and create a theocracy.

14:16

So he gets arrested, locked

14:19

up for almost two years, nineteen

14:21

months, and he never gets formally charged.

14:24

He eventually gets let go. Uh,

14:26

and I think the one of the tipping points

14:28

actually, just to give you a sense of how tense

14:30

the country was, is oak

14:33

Tar was in a newspaper interview and

14:35

he said, I am from the Nation

14:37

of Abraham and Turkish ethnicity,

14:40

and that was a bridge too far. But you

14:43

know, just like just like the propagating

14:45

anti Semitism and telling

14:48

people you've got your own take on

14:51

Islam,

14:53

getting arrested gave him more press.

14:55

It gave him more publicity. That's what this guy is

14:57

all about. So his movement grows and

14:59

grows those through the eighties through the nineties,

15:02

and they start to have that classic

15:05

original recipe mission

15:08

creep of all cults. He becomes

15:10

more and more of a

15:12

messianic figure. He's not now,

15:14

he's not just some guy talking. He's a

15:16

guy revealing these truths that only

15:19

he can reveal. And

15:21

uh, maybe we talked

15:23

just a second about his books

15:25

were still just in the facts. We're not in the crazy

15:28

part yet, because Noel, you and I were talking

15:30

briefly off air, and it sounds

15:32

like, even though his name is on a

15:34

ton of of pamphlets, shout

15:36

out to Paul Mission Control, Paul searched

15:39

for the guy's name, and his occupation

15:41

came up as Turkish pamphleteer. But

15:44

even though he wrote he wrote all these books

15:46

and pamphlets. Uh, word on the

15:48

street that we heard is that maybe

15:51

his followers were the actual authors.

15:54

Well that's the thing, right, Like, when you take on that

15:56

kind of messianic role or that like

15:58

truly cult to a kind

16:00

of position, you essentially

16:02

like own everything that

16:04

your followers do because they're doing

16:06

it all like serving at your pleasure,

16:09

almost under the guise of like self

16:11

improvement. But at the end of the day,

16:13

they're just kind of another tool in your portfolio.

16:16

Yeah, exactly. And he

16:18

starts a lot of found he likes

16:20

starting organizations. He starts one called

16:22

the Science Research Foundation. Um,

16:25

we are not native Turkish speakers, so we're gonna

16:27

mispronounce this, but it's bilim

16:29

aura stirma vakfi or

16:32

behavi is what it stands for.

16:34

And they hold all these conferences and

16:37

seminars kind of like a

16:39

scientology pr push where

16:41

they want to say, we're gonna tell you the

16:43

real causes of social

16:45

and political conflicts. I mean,

16:48

I love the just bare bones,

16:50

basic nature of the name of this because

16:52

it's so simple that it implies like

16:54

we are the authority on science,

16:57

we are the Science Research Foundation.

17:00

We're doing it so you don't have to us

17:03

when we say that evolution is

17:06

bogus. Also, a lot of his books

17:08

contain images of like fake fossils

17:10

and things like that. By the way, that's a that's

17:12

the thing too. His ten toes

17:14

down on hading evolution. It's like the

17:17

worst thing to him. But this

17:20

leads other members of the media have had their eye

17:22

on it to start openly calling anything

17:25

from a cult like organization to

17:27

a secretive Islamic sect. He

17:29

starts another thing in called

17:32

the Foundation for Protection of National Values,

17:35

and this was a networking opportunity

17:37

for him to start connecting with

17:39

conservative nationalist organizations

17:42

and UH influencers,

17:45

powerful individuals. UH.

17:47

Two years later, by the way, since nothing happens

17:49

in a vacuum, there is another military

17:52

intervention in This is

17:54

often called a bloodless coup. And

17:57

then two years after that, adding non

17:59

octars arrest it and charged with using

18:01

threats for personal benefit and

18:03

creating an organization with an

18:06

intent to commit a crime. He

18:08

gets convicted, sentenced to three years in

18:10

jail. Verdict is appealed in

18:14

it was overturned. The

18:16

same year, he is called

18:18

one of the top fifty of the five

18:21

most influential Muslims in the world

18:23

by the Royal Islamic Strategic Studies

18:25

Center in Jordan's And

18:27

then then year after that he

18:30

gets a TV network. Yeah,

18:33

and I mean it is Yeah,

18:36

so it's it's an it's not just an internet thing.

18:38

It's actually also broadcast on Turkish

18:40

cable, right, so it's called the A nine

18:43

satellite channel. And it really

18:45

does kind of have the feel of sort of a

18:47

YouTube meets like Wayne's

18:49

World, kind of cable access type show

18:52

with yeah, no reasonably

18:54

constructed set, but looking on a

18:57

little bit on the cheap side. Um, and

18:59

you know, with with actar kind of positioned

19:01

as the as the anchor of the host, surrounded

19:03

by like iPads and laptops and stuff, and

19:06

you know, mainly acting as a platform for him

19:08

to espouse his own personal

19:10

views. Yeah, exactly what

19:13

you could call is unique brand of televangelism.

19:17

Uh, and we'll get to that. We're going to dive into

19:19

that program in specific and just a

19:21

bit. But if you were familiar

19:24

with this story, you might be saying, Hey, didn't

19:26

I see that guy in the news a few years ago? You

19:28

certainly did, because on July

19:30

eleven, the Turkish

19:33

police Financial Crimes Unit did

19:36

a raid. They detained oak Tar and

19:40

over well over a hundred and fifty

19:42

of his associates. Uh. The

19:44

charges were, among others,

19:47

forming a criminal enterprise, committing

19:49

financial fraud, and widespread

19:52

sexual abuse. So what on earth

19:54

was going on with add On ok Tar.

19:57

We're gonna pause for word from our sponsor

19:59

and then will tell you here's

20:07

where it gets crazy. Yeah.

20:10

So, um, if you didn't already

20:12

kind of get thee get a sense

20:14

of which way the wind was blowing. Uh, this

20:17

is definitely a cult um.

20:19

Okay we we allegedly, but not

20:22

no, no, it's it's a cult. Not

20:24

only yeah, not only the regular regular

20:26

old run of the milk call. This is a sex cult

20:29

um because he

20:32

Okay, we'll get to it. Uh. He was absolutely

20:35

like a massive media figure

20:37

at this point his television show.

20:39

He was very popular as an author, Like we mentioned,

20:41

like I mean, he was really more known by

20:43

his pen name, Yeah, exactly.

20:46

Uh. And for like I think he were like put out

20:48

anyway, dozens of books on creationism

20:50

and they sold very very well in

20:53

Turkish bookshops. Um.

20:56

He also has become this kind of like

20:58

you know, media sensation on TV

21:00

now, so he really is kind of like a like a double

21:02

threat, if not a triple threat by

21:05

the way, if you want, you can check out clips from

21:07

his show and his broadcast, and it's all

21:09

very self aggrandizings, like documentaries about

21:11

him, kind of you know, like you know,

21:14

like you said, Ben, like elevating him to the status

21:16

of almost like a demigod you

21:18

know on Earth. Um.

21:21

And it's weird. Unequivocally,

21:23

it's it's odd, yeah,

21:26

not only because of just the production value

21:28

and the self aggrandizement and

21:30

stuff, and we'll get into his women,

21:33

his women, but also just like he

21:35

changes his story a lot. It

21:37

all feels very like trump ist kind

21:39

of rolling with it and just kind

21:41

of shooting off whatever comes at the top

21:43

of the dome and then figuring out a way to explain

21:45

it away if if, if ever called

21:48

on it, which he's not because nobody calls cult

21:50

leaders on it. That's why you're a cult leader, because you don't

21:52

want to be called on things. He's just freestyling

21:54

for a lot of it. To be honest with you, And

21:58

yes, we're not the only one, us

22:00

outsiders who are not ourselves Turkish. We're

22:02

not the only ones who found this show weird.

22:06

His views are pretty

22:08

contradictory at times, especially if you look

22:10

at everything over the span

22:12

of what he's been saying. It seems

22:15

to have a lot

22:17

of inner conflicts. Strictly fundamentalists

22:20

in some ways, but he calls himself

22:22

a feminist, nearly hedonistic

22:24

in others. Let's go ahead and say

22:26

it. One of the things that freaked

22:28

people out the most is that while he's doing

22:31

these diatribes, his female

22:33

devotees, which he calls his kittens,

22:36

are sitting around nodding,

22:39

and they've been encouraged,

22:43

coerced in some cases into

22:45

looking almost exactly the same,

22:48

a lot of plastic surgery, a lot

22:50

of makeup, and the

22:52

only difference for many is

22:54

the hair color. Some are not blonde,

22:57

and in between most are, most

23:00

are, Most are nearly identical

23:02

and blonde. And in between his

23:04

uh, his statements or his

23:07

lectures, they play pop music because

23:09

like we said, he loves dancing, and then

23:11

the kittens get up and dance. It's like a Binny

23:13

Hill song or the Heyday and Playboy, and

23:16

I don't know, we maybe have watched different episodes

23:18

and maybe they do it differently or it's evolved. But

23:20

in the one I saw and the highly recommend

23:23

checking out the broadly Vice

23:25

documentary where like an incredible

23:27

correspondent goes in and actually

23:29

appears on the show, um where

23:32

she is forced to be um

23:34

slathered in like weird makeup against

23:37

her will. I mean she you know it, submits

23:39

to it for the purposes of the you know, journalistic

23:42

uh, you know, curiosity. But it's like

23:44

the weirdest thing. And in this episode, in these

23:46

like little segues, the women are dancing,

23:49

but they don't they're sitting while they're doing it there

23:51

there in their seats, just kind of pop

23:53

into the rhythm and like this

23:55

journalist who whose name I will will pull

23:57

before we we finished, um, it kind of starts

24:00

playing along and just sort of clapping awkwardly,

24:02

like looking around. Um,

24:05

it's the weirdest thing ever.

24:08

He will yeah, ok, tar will

24:11

also ask one

24:13

of the kittens to come up and like stand

24:16

there while he does a weird little dance,

24:18

you know, just kind of like I

24:21

don't know if this will translate, but he's just sort of

24:23

moving his elbows and his hips. It's

24:25

kind of like when puff Daddy's in his all his own

24:27

artist videos, just kind of waving his hands

24:30

around, kind of shimming it from side to side,

24:32

not particularly adding

24:34

most conversation. I told you that I

24:36

can't stop. Yeah,

24:39

I told you that I can't stop. Okay, So

24:41

you saw that Broadly piece too, and you you mentioned

24:44

the incredible journalist named Mayor

24:46

Ahmad, But if you would you tell us more

24:48

about her exploration and kind of wear

24:50

red and some of the questioning that she was

24:52

able to get in under duress.

24:54

By the way, yeah,

24:57

Maharahmad, if you were listening, we're

25:00

grateful to you, and you

25:02

are in in my opinion, at least,

25:04

you are a soldier. Because her

25:07

story starts when she's trying

25:10

to interview members of Oak

25:13

Tars group about feminism

25:15

and Islam, and she gets a pen pal who's

25:18

one of the kittens in this group and they talk over

25:21

skype for like a year. There's

25:23

a lot of pre production going into this. She

25:25

travels to istanbul In to

25:28

make that video we're mentioning for for Vice,

25:31

and her idea is, look,

25:33

let me just let me try to get past what

25:35

seems like a facade here. Um.

25:38

Everybody is being weirdly

25:42

nice to me, like Stepford level nice

25:44

to me, and the male followers who are called

25:46

the Lions, are constantly

25:49

checking in and trying to make

25:52

sure, in her view that she doesn't

25:54

get any alone time with the kittens, including

25:56

her pen pal, doesn't get to talk to them at all,

25:59

and she gets this very curated

26:01

experience being on the show. You

26:03

can tell it's super awkward, uh,

26:05

and she, you know, she

26:08

powers through it, I think

26:11

in a in a later statement, she said,

26:13

and I left with just way

26:17

too much makeup slathered on and

26:19

this huge photoshop book

26:21

of fossils, and she

26:25

can't She's freaked

26:27

out. And you can tell why in the

26:29

video, because it turns out there's a dark

26:31

side to this cult.

26:34

It's not just a weird kind

26:36

of um turkish

26:38

Hugh Hefner meets religious movement

26:40

thing. All of

26:42

Okar's tremendous influences,

26:45

cultural power, and charisma leads

26:47

to that tipping point when the tide turns

26:49

in the law is cracked

26:51

down on his alleged financial crimes.

26:54

But that's just the beginning. As

26:56

we speak right now, the guy was

26:58

originally sentenced to more

27:01

than one thousand years

27:03

in prison, one thousand, seventy five

27:06

years, specifically for crimes like

27:08

sexual assault, sexual abuse of

27:10

miners, fraud, attempted

27:12

political and military espionage,

27:15

and and no, I think you'll have fun

27:17

with this. I pulled the I

27:20

pulled the official quote of

27:22

the entirety of the charges he got slapped

27:24

with. I think you might have fun reading it.

27:27

But it's a long one, so

27:29

you leaders share voice acting. Yeah,

27:31

okay, Okay, here we go. This

27:33

is almost like the kind of thing you read in like, you know,

27:35

pharmaceutical ad disclaimer

27:38

speed, just to get it all out there. But

27:40

we we'll slow it down a little more than that so you can really have

27:42

a chance to marinate in some of these accusations.

27:45

Okay, So we got forming a criminal organization,

27:47

sexual abuse of children, sexual assault,

27:49

child kidnapping, sexual harassment, blackmailing,

27:52

false imprisonment, political and military espionage,

27:54

fraud by exploiting religious feelings, money laundering,

27:56

violation of privacy, forgery of official

27:59

documents, opposition to anti terror, law, coercion,

28:01

use of violence, slander a leading citizens for

28:03

mandatory military service. Sorry

28:07

once, just insulting. It's just insulting,

28:09

insulting, false incrimination, perjury,

28:12

aggregated fraud, smuggling, tax invasion, bribery,

28:14

torture, I leegal, recording of personal data, violating

28:16

the Law on the Protection of Family and women, and violating

28:19

a citizen's right to get education, and participating politics.

28:22

Because yeah, oh, and attempting a coup

28:25

by the way, Uh, this reminded

28:27

me. I didn't expect this to show up. But

28:29

ok Tar was also found guilty of aiding

28:32

a group led by a Muslim

28:34

creature named Fula Gulan, who

28:36

we had covered in a previous episode years

28:39

ago through his school system. Yeah,

28:42

with our pal sam T Garden,

28:44

who actually went to that school that

28:47

was sort of the front right to the school in

28:49

a way, especially

28:52

to Turkish critics will say that, and

28:54

they say Gulan was attempting

28:56

a coup in twenty sixteen, and that oak

28:59

Tar was helping. And when

29:01

the law gets to his house

29:04

they find so much weird stuff. One

29:06

of the things they find is a

29:08

hidden cash of firearms,

29:11

body armor, and armored

29:13

vehicles. Oak Tark, by the way, is caught

29:15

as he's trying to run away two

29:17

of his I guess higher

29:19

level followers, executives park

29:21

On Javis and Oaktar Babuna

29:24

are sentenced to two d and

29:26

eleven and a hundred and eighty six years, respectively.

29:29

And during this trial, which

29:31

is a sensation in Turkey for months,

29:33

right, it's like the o j trial or the

29:35

Epstein trial. People are paying attention

29:38

to it. During this trial, the

29:40

court here's profoundly

29:43

disturbing sex

29:46

crimes and accounts

29:48

of abuse in detail.

29:50

And oak Tar is, you

29:53

know, leaning into this kind of constructed

29:56

personality he has of being like wise

29:59

but also very macho, right, and

30:02

he sees himself as a ladies man. He

30:04

tells the judge in December, I

30:09

have close to a thousand girlfriends.

30:11

But it seems that, according

30:14

to multiple members of his group, not

30:17

near all of these girlfriends were consensual.

30:20

The Guardian had a good recount

30:22

of this. Uh. There was one

30:24

person at his trial, coult

30:26

survivor identified only as c

30:28

c Uh, and she told the

30:30

court that OCD had not only repeatedly

30:33

sexually abused her, but he had

30:35

abused other women as well. And

30:38

in that raid we mentioned earlier, police

30:41

found sixty nine thousand

30:43

contraception pills. When

30:46

asked about them, Oktar said he

30:48

they're used to treat skin disorders

30:51

and what he called menstrual irregularities.

30:54

But it turns out by multiple

30:56

witnesses, including c c Uh,

30:59

many of the women who say he had sexually

31:02

assaulted them said he also forced

31:04

them to take these pills afterwards. Cec,

31:06

by the way, said she herself joined

31:09

the cult when she was seventeen years old and

31:11

the abuse began shortly after. And

31:14

UH disclaimer within the disclaimer,

31:16

this is the part where it gets super dark. Um.

31:18

You may have noticed in the first of the

31:21

early of the charges

31:23

I rattled off there was one sexual

31:25

abuse of children and

31:28

this has been this

31:31

has been corroborated by

31:33

multiple uh former

31:36

members of the group. Of course, you

31:38

know, At denies all of these

31:40

things vehemently UH and

31:42

and says that all of these former members

31:44

are just bitter and just trying

31:46

to bring him down or trying to sort

31:48

of like stem his

31:51

like political ambitions and things like that, that

31:53

everyone's out to get him. It's a witch hunt, etcetera.

31:56

Um. But here is is

31:58

what we do know. Sita

32:02

is Sildar. It was another survivor

32:05

reform. Remember told The Sunday Times

32:08

that act Are also sexually abused

32:10

her when she was sixteen. He also

32:13

forced her to undergo a nose job, she

32:15

claimed, without any anesthesia when

32:17

she was twenty. The victim said she is still

32:19

traumatized by the brutal surgery,

32:21

stating, I can still remember the hammer. I

32:23

was counting how many times they were hitting the hammer

32:26

and the chisel to my nose. Holy

32:29

cow. Um. And

32:31

there was a piece that I watched on a

32:34

YouTube channel called The Newsmakers. I'm

32:36

not sure if that's a television based thing

32:38

that has a YouTube presidence or if it's just a

32:41

YouTube thing, but it was. It felt very much like a BBC

32:43

style report. Uh and it's

32:46

it's it had had. This particular episode

32:48

had a guest by the name of psilon

32:51

Osgool who was a former follower

32:53

of Edna and Altar and Uh.

32:55

The host um asked

32:58

her point blank about the

33:01

allegation of of child rape.

33:04

Really that's how he put it. He put it as child rape, no

33:06

hedging around that, and she said, yes,

33:09

it did happen while she was there. She

33:11

didn't see it with her own eyes, but

33:13

that she believes that he was sexually

33:16

assaulting women, not when

33:19

girls as young as seven

33:21

years old. And we should also

33:23

acknowledge that this woman that I'm referring to was

33:27

also the in that Vice

33:29

documentary that that we've been talking about, and

33:31

she was one of the more outspoken um

33:34

members of of the of the group that

33:36

spoke. And here's the thing. She's very

33:38

intelligent, like she she has things

33:40

to say that that are very thoughtful. She

33:43

she makes all these points in the Vice thing about

33:45

how um Darwin hated

33:47

women, which there is evidence of. I mean, Darwin

33:50

he ate every animal that he discovered. He's

33:52

a weird cat. And yeah, it was the time

33:54

where most men were not particularly

33:56

kind to women. Uh, And so I would imagine

33:59

someone of dar Winds, you know, rarefied

34:02

intellect, you know, probably was a bit of a

34:04

pill to women. Um.

34:06

But she points out that, you know, there's nowhere

34:08

else in the world other than this

34:11

group, this cult, where women

34:13

the best you could hope for anywhere else in the world, she says,

34:15

is for women to be treated as equals. But

34:18

here, she says, women when

34:20

they walk into the room, they're treated like rare.

34:23

You know, creatures of magic

34:25

and mysticism. Um,

34:28

that's the technique, one gazillion

34:31

percent. We've talked about this in the episode

34:33

where we interviewed the folks from was I

34:35

an occult Um And it's just it's

34:37

just a very common technique. And now, um,

34:40

this newsmaker's episode was from July.

34:43

Uh. Still, you know, a handful of years ago. She's

34:45

out and and speaking openly

34:47

about you know, the abuse that she saw

34:51

and suffered personally. Yeah,

34:54

and she's doing this importantly,

34:56

she's doing this before the

34:59

trial. She she

35:00

she gets out early. So

35:02

we're starting to see how deep this goes.

35:05

Uh And we're gonna pause for word from

35:07

our sponsor and will continue

35:10

to dive deeper. So,

35:18

in addition to all these horrific things,

35:20

the court also learns about

35:23

the inner working of

35:25

the cult and oak tars

35:28

aims are very clear and

35:30

he is engaging in a

35:32

highly targeted um

35:35

identification and turning system.

35:38

We know this because several of

35:40

his former followers spoke

35:42

to the court in return for full

35:45

immunity from prosecution. There was one

35:47

guy who is identified publicly as

35:49

Sahein, who says he

35:52

became oak Tar's follower as

35:54

a teenager as an impressionable,

35:57

young well to do Turkish kid. He

35:59

learned about the movement from some friends,

36:01

and of course he's a he's a teenage boy,

36:03

so he's like super into

36:06

you know. The mystique of

36:08

this most interesting man in Turkey

36:11

is always surrounded by women

36:14

who look like they come out of the cover of

36:16

a fashion magazine. And he has cool

36:18

stuff to say, you know, and he's he's

36:21

got a different kind of Islam,

36:23

a different kind of take that might fit you

36:25

better. At least that's what Sahin thinks.

36:28

And oak Tar takes him in, starts

36:30

dressing him in designer clothes, starts

36:33

having him work out, gets him

36:35

stylish, but not just to

36:37

help this kid's self esteem. Actually,

36:39

that's probably one of the last concerns. So

36:42

he learns that his good looks uh

36:45

and his new persona are purpose

36:47

built as bait to

36:49

lure ok Tar's next

36:52

goal, female followers. So

36:55

he and the other male followers that

36:57

o Tar calls his lions, they

36:59

just hang out in malls or

37:01

cafes, and there's so many cafes

37:03

around Turkey, uh, and they would just

37:05

strike up conversations pick up

37:07

artist style with women who happened

37:10

by and then he would give them his

37:12

number and he would say, Hey, I'm a scout from

37:14

modeling agency, or I

37:16

am hiring salespeople, and I

37:19

like the cut of your jib, I like your vibe

37:22

and shout out to. So many of our own

37:24

listeners are fellow conspiracy realist today

37:27

who have come close to seeing these approaches.

37:30

I'm sure, uh someone listening

37:32

has been approached by a person

37:34

who says, hey, I work for modeling agency.

37:37

Uh. Just spoiler alert. I

37:39

don't think you should believe them anyway.

37:42

They especially if they want you to pay

37:44

them up. That's always

37:46

that's always the biggest red flag.

37:48

If an agent is like, hey, I'll represent

37:51

you and then you got talent, I would it take his

37:53

kid? No, just go ahead and pay me and

37:55

then we'll get your head shots and all that. So that's not how

37:57

it works, true agents or truths

38:00

out. They get paid when you get paid

38:02

right exactly. And they

38:05

were so systematic

38:07

about this that they had a name for their scheme.

38:09

It was called the turnstile system.

38:12

And it it worked,

38:14

It worked very very well. Uh

38:16

Saheen says that he alone

38:19

in his time, brought over two d

38:21

women into the cult, and he said oak

38:23

Tar brainwashed him, got into his head

38:26

and had him thinking that what he was doing

38:28

was right. He was spreading the good word. Another

38:32

uh and we mentioned Sale on Old

38:34

School. Let's talk a little bit more about her.

38:36

So she joined the cult when she was twenty

38:38

four, it was two thousand and six, and

38:41

until she left, she was one

38:43

of the most prominent members. In these videos,

38:46

you'll see that some of the kittens kind of sit and

38:49

you know, they respond by giggling

38:51

or laughing, and they danced in their seats,

38:53

and then others will speak

38:56

themselves, right, they'll make their opinions

38:58

known, or they'll say maybe

39:00

a rehearsed uh speech of some sort.

39:03

Sealan was doing a lot of this, but

39:05

after she got out, she said life in the group

39:08

was a prison and UH

39:11

that a lot of people didn't take the threat

39:13

of Oktar seriously because

39:15

they thought he was an eccentric, maybe

39:17

dirty old man who just liked having

39:19

a bunch of scantily dressed women around

39:22

him. But she said the abuse his

39:24

victims went through was serious and

39:26

life changing. And these allegations,

39:29

especially those of abusing children, are

39:31

what led to media outlets like the Greek

39:33

City Times called him the Turkish

39:36

Jeffrey Epstein. And the

39:40

case is still like there's still developments

39:42

happening in the case as of this year.

39:45

It just just this April. As we record

39:47

in two, four of his lawyers

39:49

got detained on March fifto

39:53

his verdict was actually overturned

39:56

by the Turkish Court of Appeal due

39:58

to quote incomplete prosecution

40:00

and erroneous assessment, and the court

40:02

asked for a retrial of all the defendants.

40:05

Uh. They decided to release sixty eight

40:07

defendants, but they kept sixteen,

40:10

including oak Tar. He is

40:13

incarcerated at the time of this recording.

40:15

And you know what, I hate to admit because

40:18

this is dark, deeply disturbing

40:20

stuff, but uh, they to admit. I chuckled

40:23

when oak Tar was asked about

40:25

his arrest. As the police are taking

40:27

him from his house uh to a hospital

40:30

for medical check, someone says,

40:32

you know, what do you think this is all about? And

40:34

he says, quote, this is a conspiracy

40:37

by the British deep state. Yeah,

40:40

that's a That's the thing that's been thrown around is that

40:42

he believes British intelligence is

40:44

setting him up in some way. Been

40:47

there's a reason for that though right, I'm

40:49

not. It's it's not instantly apparent

40:52

to me, but like there is some connection.

40:54

He believes he's being targeted

40:58

for what exactly. He

41:00

believes he's being targeted

41:04

by the British state to

41:07

weaken the what

41:10

I guess he sees as the destiny of Turkey

41:13

or the Ottoman Empire, like he

41:15

and his colleagues are are fighting

41:17

for a better Turkey.

41:20

Well, he's essentially implying that

41:23

that hidden group that runs the

41:25

world, right, whether they are a particular

41:27

religion, or whether they're Freemasons,

41:30

or whether they're British aristocracy,

41:32

he's alleging that they capital

41:35

t have some stuff they don't

41:37

want you to know, and they're stopping oak Tar

41:40

from getting the word out. But

41:43

with this guy, you know how

41:45

his statement may change as the wind blows,

41:48

you know what I mean. Have we talked about the

41:50

weirdness going on in Turkey right

41:52

now with their foreign minister

41:55

Mevlut Cavu.

41:59

He's he's changed the name

42:01

of the country two two

42:03

Turkey with an ome lad over it t u

42:06

r k I y e uh.

42:10

He's rebranding the country. Wait,

42:12

I I know that I remember this, when no, he

42:14

didn't like the Western Association

42:18

of Turkey, the country with Turkey the

42:20

food. Yeah, right, is that a

42:22

lunch of means? Yeah, I think that's right. Um.

42:25

But now it's like you know, he now he's

42:27

he's you know, insisting that like everyone else

42:29

fell a suit, like at their own expense, like Turkish

42:31

airlines and things like that. Right. So

42:33

it's uh so, it's it's it's a lot. There's

42:35

a lot of going on over there unrelated to

42:38

this particular story. But I did think that was an interesting uh

42:40

flex from a foreign leader. Um.

42:43

And this really is an ongoing story bed And

42:45

again I can't recommend that broadly piece

42:47

and nothing's really sure. It's only like fifteen minutes.

42:49

This is really a great piece of journalism,

42:52

um, and you get you're right there

42:54

with her, and you really get a sense of what it

42:56

feels like. And you know, obviously

42:59

innocent until proven guilty and all of that. But

43:02

man, there's a lot of smoke around

43:04

this guy. Yeah. I'm pretty sure there's

43:07

some sex abuse fire

43:09

uh in there as well. Absolutely,

43:12

I mean he was convicted of it originally.

43:14

Also he has this These

43:17

are just a few of his convictions, just the big

43:19

ones. He's been arrested for other stuff as well,

43:21

including cocaine possession. We're

43:23

just saying he's been on the wrong side of the

43:26

law pretty often, and he does

43:28

seem to have ties to people

43:30

who want to orchestrate a coup in

43:32

the Republic of Turkey at

43:35

this point. Whenever we do an episode

43:37

touching on cultic organizations,

43:40

uh, well, it's important

43:42

for us to end by saying that colts

43:45

can be a real damaging thing.

43:47

Check out our earlier episodes, check

43:50

out our YouTube videos on how cults are created.

43:52

And please don't hesitate to write to us if

43:55

you have a loved one that you think

43:57

has been taken in by a cult

43:59

uh and are looking for some resources

44:02

on how to approach them

44:04

about freeing their minds. We've got

44:06

your back. We try to be easy to find

44:09

online. The Facebook's, the instagrams,

44:12

twitters most of the things. Yeah,

44:15

but in those yeah, exactly

44:17

on those three that you mentioned just now, well,

44:19

no, actually, let's do this one more time. On on Facebook,

44:22

on Twitter, and YouTube. You can find us at Conspiracy

44:24

Stuff on Instagram. It's a little difference Conspiracy

44:27

Stuff show, but lots of fun

44:29

changes coming to all of those platforms, specifically

44:32

YouTube and Instagram, so give

44:34

those a look and be on the lookout in the very

44:36

near future for some exciting updates

44:38

um to that content as well.

44:41

Yeah, and you know, not everybody SIPs the social

44:43

meds. If you yourself, don't

44:45

partake. But you still have a message you want

44:47

to get to us, Well, then guess what. We

44:50

have a phone number. Uh.

44:52

We love saying it and we love hearing from you on

44:54

it. That's right, it's one A three three st

44:57

d w y t K. Leave

44:59

a message of the sound of Ben's dulcet

45:02

tones, inviting you into

45:04

the world of telephonic mystery

45:06

and imagination. You've got three

45:08

minutes to leave your missive, or your tail

45:10

or your question, whatever it might be, and

45:13

you can need a little more time than that by all means,

45:15

tell us, you know, write a novel,

45:17

but maybe do so via our good old fashion email.

45:20

We are conspiracy at iHeart

45:22

radio dot com.

45:42

Stuff they don't want you to know is a production

45:44

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