0:00

From UFOs to psychic powers

0:02

and government conspiracies. History

0:04

is riddled with unexplained events. You

0:07

can turn back now or learn

0:09

the stuff they don't want you to know. A

0:12

production of I Heart Radios How

0:14

Stuff Works. Hello,

0:24

Welcome back to the show. I'm sitting entirely

0:27

too low right now. My name is Matt. Pump

0:29

up that chair, Matt. My name is Noel. They call me

0:31

Ben. We are joined as always with our super

0:34

producer, Paul Mission Controlled decand

0:36

who just returned from mysterious adventures.

0:39

Thanks for coming back, Paul. Most

0:41

importantly, you are you. You are here,

0:43

and that makes this stuff they don't want

0:46

you to know. So how's everybody

0:48

doing today? Before we get into this, I

0:51

spoke with Mission Control a little bit before we went

0:53

back on the air, asked him if he was okay. He

0:55

gave me a thumbs up. Paul,

0:57

were still on thumbs up status. Okay,

1:00

just for just for the record, we we

1:03

re recorded this intro. So I don't know how

1:05

many times we can ask Paul to give

1:07

me a thumbs up. I mean, it's tired of it. How

1:09

many times has this happened? Right?

1:11

I mean infinite number

1:13

of times? Right? When all the generations. Well,

1:16

I was just gonna tell you guys, I for the first

1:18

time put some glow in the dark planets

1:20

up above the ceiling where my son

1:22

sleeps, and I did that yesterday.

1:25

And the one thing that's missing from that,

1:27

it's got all the planets. Pluto is

1:29

not included, remember, but

1:31

it does not have the moon. It

1:33

doesn't have the moon. There's a really

1:36

cool moon globe you can get, and

1:38

there's also a glow in the dark three

1:40

dimensional moon sphere you could get

1:42

for him. That one is really awesome and I'm looking

1:45

to get that one day, the

1:47

day that doesn't break the bank. Yeah, because these

1:50

things were real, real cheap. I

1:53

want to get one of those cool starry night

1:55

projector things that you just put like on

1:57

the floor and it just projects this cool

2:00

like to see on the ceiling all around your room.

2:02

And I'm thirty five, so I'm

2:05

into stuff like that that actually sounds

2:07

amazing. Yeah, I love night projections. I have.

2:09

I have some stuff like that at my the

2:12

place where I currently live there my

2:15

other residence, yes,

2:18

a place where I live, which is a real place.

2:22

How are things going where you live? What

2:24

do you think about space exploration

2:27

today? We're exploring a strange story about

2:29

the moon, and we'd like to hear from you. So

2:31

if this spirit so moves you while you listen

2:34

to today's show, feel free to pose.

2:36

It will be here when you get back, and give

2:38

us a call with your thoughts directly, your

2:40

visceral hot takes. You're off

2:43

the cuff, stuff that you wouldn't

2:45

say to anyone other than

2:48

us and your fellow listeners,

2:50

like a machine facsimile of us.

2:53

Yeah, yeah, you're innermost thoughts.

2:56

Spill them, yeah, along with your social Security

2:58

number, a list of your fears, your blood type.

3:00

But really we we need your innermost thoughts

3:03

to to fuel our machine

3:05

or infernal machine we've created here. Try

3:07

to keep them limited to the three minute

3:09

mark, right, Yeah, if you know,

3:11

if you want to or just leave a bunch of messages,

3:14

that's fine. That's Matt's favorite

3:16

thing when you hit our call in

3:18

line and leave fifteen

3:21

messages because he gets a notification.

3:23

Yeah, we we mentioned one person. I think in

3:26

the last episode been that that person

3:28

hasn't called back again yet. Maybe she knew

3:30

we were talking about her, you know, fourth dimensionally,

3:33

Jennifer, Right, I maybe

3:36

feel free to keep calling Jennifer.

3:39

But if you want to take a page out of Jennifer's

3:41

book and share some information with your fellow listeners,

3:43

you're probably wondering if you just pick

3:46

up the phone and start talking, almost

3:48

you have to hit a numerical code

3:50

first. Yes, that's one eight

3:53

three three st d w

3:55

y t K. That's just Stufinitely don't

3:58

want you to know. Every time we say number,

4:01

it feels like there's going to be an AM radio

4:03

talk show tag on where it's like in

4:05

the money down

4:08

the moon. Yes,

4:10

yes, the moon. We have been

4:12

there, not the four of us personally,

4:14

and odds are not most

4:17

of us listening, but our species

4:19

has. It's pretty easy to prove

4:21

this is the case. However, it is completely

4:24

absolutely understandable. I would argue

4:26

that folks could be skeptical about this claim.

4:29

After all, the timeline is really

4:31

weird. So our entire

4:33

species, out of everybody, our entire

4:35

species, one country

4:38

landed people on the moon, and they

4:40

only did it six times, and

4:43

they only did it between nineteen sixty

4:45

nine to nineteen seventy two, at

4:47

which point they just stopped.

4:50

Yeah, for no reason other

4:52

than it's really really expensive

4:55

and there's not much going on up there officially,

4:58

right, it's pretty it's pretty dangerous,

5:01

right, and it's a dangerous expedition, one of the

5:03

most dangerous trips those people would

5:05

have ever taken in their lives. Today's

5:07

episode is about the idea that we did

5:09

not stop going to the moon,

5:12

so and that perhaps are the reason

5:14

we went up there was not what was

5:16

told of the public in the world exactly

5:19

exactly. So to to get

5:22

to get our our heads around this first,

5:24

we have to start with the facts.

5:27

So here they are and side note,

5:30

we would love to hear any I would

5:32

love to hear any counter arguments

5:34

about this because I am certain that some

5:37

of us listening as soon as they

5:39

heard me say, yeah, we

5:41

went to the moon and it's pretty easy. You're

5:43

right, right, Well, it's a show that we got there.

5:46

Yes we will. We will have some examples,

5:49

uh, some arguments for why that is

5:51

the case, and we want to hear your arguments against

5:53

it. So boom, we're back

5:56

in the nineteen fifties. This is

5:58

the Moon, what we did, and how we did

6:00

it. It's nineteen fifties. The United

6:02

States is locked in a race with the Soviet

6:05

Union for domination over everything,

6:08

especially space. The

6:10

new frontier, and you know, this

6:12

is all just more cold war stuff.

6:14

After we we as

6:16

in the Soviet Union and the United

6:18

States were victorious during World

6:21

War Two, we're trying to figure out who

6:23

is the superpower. And then on January

6:25

two, nineteen fifty nine,

6:28

there's this thing called the Soviet Luna

6:30

one spacecraft and it made the

6:33

first official fly by of the

6:35

Moon at a distance of three thousand,

6:37

seven hundred and twenty five miles. That's

6:40

five thousand kilometers

6:42

from the Moon's surface, so it's that far

6:44

away from the Moon. But again, this is a huge achievement

6:46

because it's the first time we've ever gotten a piece

6:49

of human machinery that far out

6:51

to the Moon and then successfully

6:54

essentially looked at it with

6:56

with a piece of of technology

6:59

that we created. On September twelfth, ninety

7:01

nine, they landed the second

7:04

Lina mission. And it's

7:06

strange because will will hear that described

7:09

is they impacted the Moon, which

7:12

we have to remember for the time. It

7:14

was a really big, an amazing deal just to be able

7:17

to hit that moving target. Oh yeah,

7:19

that's amazing. The math involved

7:22

is so far beyond my comprehension

7:24

that it's crazy

7:26

that they could even attempt to do it, and

7:28

then on May

7:31

nine sixty one, severely

7:33

freaked out by by

7:36

the success of the U S SR

7:38

President John F. Kennedy issues

7:40

a challenge in his speech to Congress when

7:42

he says, I believe that this

7:45

nation should commit itself to achieve

7:47

the goal before this decade

7:49

is out. I've landed a man on the

7:51

moon and retarded him safely

7:54

to Earth. And see that was right after one

7:56

of Dr field Good's injections of

7:58

what we now know was math m it means, is

8:00

that right? Yes, Kennedy?

8:02

Uh, yes, that

8:05

we made him talk like that. It was all It

8:07

was, exactly what it was about, and

8:10

just more of the energy of the past.

8:13

Yeah, he was already there.

8:15

He was already on the moon looking looking down you

8:17

like, sir. Income inequality remains

8:20

a problem. The nation is

8:22

embroiled in racial disparity.

8:24

Intention and he's like the

8:27

moon Moon. And

8:29

also as the doctor, where has the diet

8:31

called Maryland? Uh? Yes,

8:34

this leads to a series of things. We're gonna

8:37

walk through him pretty quickly. Before

8:39

we had the Apollo program, we had something called the U

8:41

s Ranger Program. This ram from six one

8:44

to sixty five, it sent nine missions to

8:46

the Moon. There were no people on them,

8:48

This was all machinery. In sixty

8:50

two, the Ranger four reached the

8:52

lunar surface, but it impacted, It

8:55

crashed, and it wasn't able to send any

8:57

data back. So we just managed to may

9:00

a very expensive bullet essentially,

9:02

yeah, and a small crater. But

9:05

hey, congratulations, we had an impact.

9:07

Right, That's how it would be written in some

9:10

kind of board room

9:12

where they're having Hey, look, we made an impact. We

9:14

made an impact. We literally made an impact.

9:16

Two years later, Rangers seven captures

9:19

and sends back four thousand photos

9:21

of the Moon before it hits the surface, and

9:23

also goes to put

9:26

The next big step was to land something

9:29

without crashing. Yes, a good idea,

9:32

um. Again, much more difficult

9:34

than you could ever imagine. Um.

9:37

However, here's the thing.

9:39

The Soviets, again like they did before, beat

9:41

us out the Americans, of course, by

9:44

touching down the lunar nine. So they're at

9:46

the ninth iteration of the Luna at this point

9:49

on February third, nineteen sixties

9:51

six. But here's the thing, though,

9:53

the American side, again of this Cold

9:56

War, we weren't very far behind the

9:58

surveyor one mission. This is a

10:00

new craft or a new uh

10:02

I guess part of the program.

10:05

It made a controlled landing on the Moon about

10:08

three months later. So here we

10:10

are nineteen sixty six. Both the Soviets

10:12

and the United States have landed

10:14

things successfully there. And

10:17

this all leads up to

10:19

the big ticket item, the

10:21

big tent, right, the big temple, the

10:24

milestone of lunar exploration, which

10:26

is landing a spacecraft

10:29

with people on it on the lunar

10:31

surface and hopefully getting them back

10:33

to Earth somehow. Well, let's not be hasty

10:37

step at a time. It's

10:39

kind of like Ghadaga. You know, how far are you gonna

10:42

get if you spend all if you save all your energy

10:44

for the swim back. This

10:46

was way before Gatica, but it's a good film.

10:48

All these steps were leading to this, and

10:52

it was a bloody path. It was not a

10:54

situation where it's all angel

10:56

farts and trumpets and harps and stuff.

10:59

Tragedy struck during a test on January

11:02

nine, sixty seven, a fire swept through

11:04

the Apollo command module, killing

11:07

three astronauts, and NASA named

11:09

the test Apollo one to honor the crew,

11:12

and then we get to the man lunar landings. They

11:14

all take place again between nineteen sixty

11:16

nine and nineteen seventy two. They're

11:18

all part of the Apollo program. They all come

11:20

from the US. The most

11:22

popular one, the one that changed history

11:24

forever, was the July nineteen

11:27

sixty nine moon landing, when Neil

11:29

Armstrong and longtime

11:31

friend of the show Buzz Doctor Rendezvous

11:34

Aldrin land on the lunar surface.

11:36

It's followed by five other crude missions.

11:38

The astronauts who first touched on

11:41

the Moon's surface have to go

11:44

way out of the way. This is this

11:46

is so dangerous. They have to travel three

11:49

d eighty three thousand kilometers

11:51

roughly just reach the Moon. They

11:54

have to survive landing, have to

11:56

survive being on the Moon. They have to

11:58

make it. They have to like off

12:00

from the Moon. They have to take off from the Moon, which

12:02

people get, and then they have

12:05

to make it back to Earth, preferably

12:07

alive. You miss a step. They got a rendezvous

12:09

after taking off from the Moon with

12:12

the other spacecraft that's going

12:14

around the Moon, right Doc successfully

12:17

then make it back. That's a good point. So you

12:19

can see just from all the all

12:23

the dangers involved there why

12:25

people would be skeptical, especially

12:27

when again the argument is that there are so

12:29

many problems on this

12:32

planet that we can solve through

12:34

mundane means. You know, why are we Why

12:36

are we sending just six

12:38

missions to the Moon and quitting? Why do we

12:41

quit? So there have been tons

12:43

and tons of unscrewed landings, which

12:45

persists in the modern day. And

12:48

as you can imagine, this way less risky,

12:50

way less expensive. And

12:54

now we get to the question of how we

12:56

know that we, being humanity,

12:58

got there some way. There are number

13:00

of ways to prove human beings visited the

13:02

Moon. First, we have pieces

13:05

of it, literal pieces of it. It's illegal

13:07

for us to buy them because we're

13:09

apparently not cool enough. But

13:12

thanks for writing back nessa but

13:14

humanity has Have you guys ever seen that

13:16

that movie Apollow eighteen? I have not. Is

13:19

that the same as Apollo Third Team? Almost

13:22

almost the same thing. It's just like five

13:24

missions later five more so

13:26

so, Apollo seventeen is the last man

13:29

mission to the Moon that occurred. This one

13:31

is about the next one and what

13:33

they find and uh less spoiler alert,

13:36

there's some naughty moon rocks up there.

13:38

That's all I'll say naughty moon or gus

13:41

so dear when you describes stuff as naughty

13:45

moon, moon rocks is like a weed thing.

13:47

Oh it is. It's like some really concentrated

13:49

like weed thing. Well,

13:52

I hear it in rap songs. I only not. Oh

13:55

well it's not that, but

13:57

but anyway, watch it is it? Yeah,

14:00

So, astronauts working

14:02

for NUNCA brought back about eight hundred

14:05

and forty two pounds of moon rocks

14:08

rocks from the lunar surface for

14:11

scientists to study. Although it would be great if

14:13

it were eight hundred forty two pounds

14:15

of marijuana that they brought back. The

14:17

thing about these rocks is the oldest. The

14:20

oldest ones are four point five billion

14:22

years old, which makes them two hundred

14:25

million years older than the oldest rocks

14:27

on Earth. So it's

14:29

a pretty good argument. You could also say, well,

14:32

maybe they just collected eight hundred forty

14:34

two pounds of meteorites

14:38

that landed on Earth. But

14:41

the moon rocks have characteristics

14:44

that are unique to them.

14:46

And then there's the there's the other idea,

14:48

which is that you can see stuff reflected on the

14:50

Moon. You can see the retroflectors,

14:53

you can see the flag which still

14:55

there, which is a little

14:57

ghost on our part, But how inspiring

15:00

anyhow. These are just some of the things

15:02

that you can see on the Moon and

15:04

so far in twenty nineteen. This

15:07

is the official narrative, at least, the very

15:09

broad strokes of our species collective

15:11

quest to reach the Moon. But

15:14

what if there's more to the

15:16

story? Yeah, what if instead of faking

15:19

the moon landing the way so

15:21

many of us at least have pondered, Um,

15:25

what if there's more to

15:28

the mission than what the public had been led

15:30

to believe. What if we had a whole other

15:32

ulterior motive just by even imagining

15:35

going up to the moon. And what

15:37

if we did something crazy.

15:40

We'll explore that concept when we get

15:43

back from a quick sponsor break

15:51

years where it gets crazy.

15:54

We absolutely planned more

15:57

stuff, but we at this

15:59

point we don't mean the human species. We mean the

16:01

US government. We planned a ton of

16:03

very strange things we did

16:05

not tell anyone. We

16:08

would like to reveal one of those

16:10

plans on the air today, something

16:12

called Project Horizon. All

16:15

the way back in nineteen fifty

16:17

eight or fifty nine, UM

16:20

ten or so, ten or more years before

16:22

the first lunar landing, Uncle Sam

16:24

was already planning to build a

16:26

permanent lunar base. They

16:29

listed the requirements like this, So

16:31

here's the quote. Um, the lunar outpost

16:33

is required to develop and protect

16:36

potential United States interests on

16:38

the Moon, To develop techniques in

16:40

Moon based surveillance of the Earth and space

16:43

and communications relay and

16:45

in operations on the surface of the Moon.

16:47

To serve as a base for exploration of the Moon,

16:50

for future exploration into space, and

16:52

for military operations on the Moon

16:54

if required. And to support

16:56

scientific investigation on the Moon.

17:00

Very very moon based documentary. Well

17:02

yeah, but again, we're talking about

17:04

having a military, like

17:06

a ready to go military

17:08

outpost on the Moon in nineteen fifty

17:11

ye. I mean, that's like a pretty big leap. But I

17:13

guess anytime we're conquering anything, we're doing

17:15

it for military purposes, right, Like why bother

17:18

sending humans to the Moon just so we can have the bragging

17:20

rights if we're not going to actually use it to blow

17:22

people up in some way, right, And I guess

17:24

so. And and just to give you a little background on what

17:27

we're reading from, this is an unclassified

17:29

secret document that we found on History

17:31

dot Army dot mill. It's entitled

17:34

Project Horizon, Volume one, Summary

17:36

and Supporting Considerations, and

17:39

we we have a little more about the background

17:41

of this project. Yeah,

17:44

yeah, no, I know a lot of us are titilated

17:46

by the the titling

17:49

there. Yeah, if you are, if you're still

17:51

awake after hearing that title. Uh.

17:53

This was the brainchild of a

17:56

Lieutenant General Arthur G. Trudeau,

17:58

who was the U. S. Army's Chief of Research

18:00

and development. The project had two components.

18:02

First, the publicly acknowledged

18:05

idea, which is very very star trek,

18:08

very scarcity economy. That's

18:10

exactly what it is, to boldly go where

18:12

no one has gone before, to explore

18:14

space for the betterment of mankind, to

18:17

develop new and better technology,

18:20

again for the betterment of mankind, right

18:22

right right, to explore strange

18:24

new places right but

18:27

below the surface. The

18:30

true purpose of Project

18:33

Horizon and many similar projects

18:35

in the you know, the secret

18:38

thing, what people said when

18:40

all the doors were closed and the monitors

18:43

were turned off, was to

18:47

create a situation where they

18:49

could have military superiority

18:51

in the Cold War, military superiority

18:54

in space through uh,

18:57

through nuclear weaponry. They

19:00

weren't going to just put people on the

19:02

moon. They wanted to put nukes there. By permanently

19:05

occupying the Moon, and more importantly, by

19:07

getting there before Soviet forces did, the

19:09

US could say we own this now,

19:12

and the Moon and all that it

19:14

holds or any use that it

19:16

has is now ours,

19:18

and this could be this could be useful

19:21

on a multitude of fronts. First,

19:24

you have in

19:26

many ways you have the potential for uh

19:29

an obscene level of air superiority.

19:32

Oh yeah, you can also restrict

19:35

space from you can

19:37

restrict anyone from accessing space.

19:40

Yeah, that's huge. You've got a

19:42

moon base on that thing that's just looming

19:44

over the planet at all times. You're

19:47

you can observe anything

19:50

that the Moon can see. You can then see,

19:52

right, which is a little difficult

19:55

to plan for. Well, I guess not really. You could

19:57

you could do all of your all of

20:00

your research somehow, I don't know, underground

20:03

or outside of the Moon's view somehow,

20:06

right, Radiation shielding would have to be a

20:08

big part you could uh. You could also,

20:11

for example, make a tremendous

20:13

amount of money because you would have a monopoly

20:16

on lunar travel. And

20:18

millionaires existed back in the in

20:20

the fifties as well as the sixties, so

20:23

it's quite conceivable that they would pay

20:26

any price to get to the Moon if they were allowed to.

20:29

The army could also have massive,

20:32

massive surveillance capabilities.

20:34

There would be no such thing as a secret

20:36

area of the U. S. S R. Unless was

20:38

buried deep, but even then you could see it being constructed.

20:41

I mean, it just feels like there wouldn't be as much of a

20:43

space race kind of situation if there wasn't

20:46

some military angle at

20:48

play right right, And it seems

20:50

like any time that the US is like, oh, we better catch

20:52

up with the Russians because they don't want the Russians to have the

20:54

upper hand, it's less of a reputation thing,

20:56

and to me it seems like more of like a strategic

20:59

thing. Well yeah, I mean, think about

21:01

this last bit that we were talking about the nukes.

21:04

If you had nukes on the lunar surface,

21:06

so that could be launched, let's say,

21:08

with a dead man's hand kind of situation,

21:10

where if Washington, d C. Gets

21:13

attacked, if New York gets attacked,

21:15

if all of it gets wiped off the face

21:17

of the Earth through Soviet missiles,

21:19

then there are still lunar

21:22

nukes coming at you, right,

21:24

no matter no matter what you do to the United

21:27

States mainland or any of its other outposts,

21:29

they're still will be nukes on the way.

21:31

They might take a while, but they're headed your

21:33

direction. That's a I mean, that's a very

21:36

very good point, because even if

21:38

every single part of the

21:40

US security structure is disabled,

21:44

they're gonna have a tough time hitting the moon. Right.

21:47

You can also vastly improve

21:49

radio communications, at least

21:51

for the time. So

21:55

it's clear that we can see this. It's clear that

21:57

it has advantages, and I enjoy

21:59

what you pointed out. No one, which is I would

22:01

say, not just any endeavor like this,

22:04

but all all wars

22:06

and expansions are about controlling resource

22:09

and access, you know. So it's

22:11

not out of the goodness of their hearts that they

22:13

planned this. The Pentagon

22:16

said, Okay, let's let's

22:19

think about this, let's figure it out. So they turned Project

22:21

Horizon over to one of the

22:23

only people they felt qualified to

22:25

study its feasibility. Uh

22:27

person will be familiar to many of our

22:30

longtime listeners today, that is Werner

22:32

von Braun. Yeah, so the

22:34

Pentagon um turned Project

22:36

Horizon over to Verner von Braun,

22:39

and at this point he was the

22:41

head of the U. S. Army Ballistic Missile Agency

22:44

or ABMA. Personal

22:46

favorite, it's almost abba. Yeah, that's

22:48

neither here nor there um. But von bron Um

22:51

was able to assign

22:53

the study to one of his German

22:56

colleagues, who also had been brought to

22:58

the United States as part of Operation

23:01

paper Clip, which we've discussed on the show. I think

23:03

it's one of your personal favorites, man, I'm not mistaken.

23:05

I I hopefully it's a show favorite

23:08

because it's just one of those weird things in history

23:10

that occurred that we don't like to think

23:12

about. Really happened. Quick

23:15

little summary, Germany's.

23:18

One of Germany's most

23:20

important and least known at

23:22

the time popular exports post

23:24

World War Two was former

23:26

Nazi scientists. Yeah minds, great

23:29

minds that put together the technology

23:31

that was used to overcome most of

23:33

the rest of the world's military. The

23:36

US got them, in Russia got them too. They were also

23:38

the Cold War had already begun, so Operation

23:40

paper Clip was the secret

23:42

program to spirit these

23:44

scientists away without the

23:47

US public learning about it and

23:49

whenever. Ron Brown was one of those men,

23:51

and one of his man his top man for the job

23:54

was a man by the name of hinz Hammon Coel

23:57

and over the next nine days, uh

24:00

this gentleman divided up to projects in the pieces

24:02

and assign each part to a military

24:04

department that was most suited,

24:06

most well suited to study it. The ABMA

24:08

would evaluate the type of rockets and space

24:11

vehicles that would be required, and

24:13

then the Signal Corps would study the radio

24:15

and communications needs, and the core of engineers

24:18

would propose the best methods for constructing,

24:20

maintaining, and expanding a habitable

24:23

outpost on said moon.

24:25

And see their compartmentalizing here. They're

24:27

very intelligent and how they're doing this. None

24:29

of the components no necessarily

24:32

exactly what the others are doing. There's

24:34

um Bob Blazar, of all people

24:37

that we've discussed on this show before, a guy

24:39

who purportedly worked at Area fifty

24:41

one or near Area fifty one. I think

24:43

it's site for something like that, that's

24:45

near Area fifty one. He recently went on the

24:47

Joe Rogan Show, and he was discussing

24:50

particularly this the compartmentalization

24:53

of studying something like this, how

24:57

you'll get basically a title kind

24:59

of what we what we see when we look in the DARPA website.

25:02

Um, you get a title of a project

25:04

in a one paragraph that tells

25:06

you what that thing is, so you'll

25:09

know that. Okay, someone over here

25:11

in this project is studying the propulsion

25:13

system. Somebody over here is studying

25:15

aerodynamics. You know part

25:18

of this if you're gonna, let's say, create a flying

25:20

saucer, um in this case, uh

25:22

col col

25:26

He's he's doing this exact

25:28

thing with building a moon base, right

25:31

right. Uh. And he was an aeronautical

25:34

engineer who made the

25:36

first forays into the design of

25:38

the rocket that we now know as the Saturn

25:41

one. You cannot buy

25:43

your own Saturn one again, thanks

25:45

for writing back. NASA's just curious.

25:48

But you can buy a top notch

25:51

lego model based on it. And

25:54

the company Saturn did

25:56

make some fine vehicles for a while. They're funny

25:59

you mentioned that. Yeah, I direct two of them. Uh,

26:02

it's true. They will keep you alive. But

26:06

but back to the horizons. So the final report,

26:09

which was titled Project Rise in U S.

26:11

Army Study for the Establishment of a Lunar Military

26:13

Post, was given to the Pentagon in

26:16

June in two

26:18

volumes. The first was a summary that

26:21

said them presented the main conclusions

26:23

of what we want

26:25

to do. The high level thing, right, the one the

26:27

exacts would read, and the second gives

26:29

a longer and more detailed analysis.

26:33

And we'll tell you what was in this report after

26:35

a word from our sponsors. Okay,

26:44

so first things first, this is written during

26:46

the Cold War. This top secret.

26:49

If you told most

26:52

of the world, Hi, we're gonna

26:54

take over the Moon. We're gonna put nuclear

26:56

weapons on it. Uh, you know, U

26:59

s A U s A, the

27:01

world would not react well. So

27:04

they emphasize the

27:06

secrecy, but also they emphasized the grave

27:09

nature of the problem.

27:11

This is very um. This

27:13

is phrased as a inevitable,

27:16

indeed, the only path to

27:19

salvation for the United States or

27:21

two continued stability. And they say

27:23

the political implications of our failure

27:25

to be first in space are a matter of public

27:28

record. This failure has reflected

27:30

adversely on United States scientific

27:32

and political leadership. To some extent.

27:35

We have recovered the loss. However, once

27:37

having been second best in the eyes of the

27:39

world's population, we are not now

27:41

in a position to afford being second

27:43

on any other major step in space.

27:46

The results of failure to first place man

27:48

on an extra terrestrial base will

27:51

raise grave political questions and at

27:53

the same time lower US prestige

27:55

and influence. There you

27:57

go, I imagine um

28:00

a general perhaps pacing

28:02

back and forth again in a giant

28:04

room filled with with officials and

28:06

scientists and other military

28:08

personnel, just giving that speech.

28:11

I get a very doctor strange love vibe.

28:13

Yeah, how did this because this

28:16

sort of answers the question

28:19

that I posed originally, which is, why

28:21

would you focus on the Moon when there's

28:24

so many things we could fix here on Earth?

28:26

And they've they've changed the nature

28:29

of the argument to say that

28:32

if we want to fix anything on Earth,

28:34

we have to for the respect,

28:38

you know, we have to thank

28:41

you, thank you for the respect. We have to we

28:43

have to get to the Moon. We've been number two on

28:46

several of these other big things, the

28:48

first satellite, the first successful

28:51

you know, lunar orbiting, first

28:53

person in space to return. Yeah,

28:56

I mean, they're like, guys, we

28:58

need that base now, and who knows how

29:00

many other cosmonauts were just the

29:02

first people in space who didn't make it back.

29:05

Right, So then

29:07

the report turns to the question whether a crude

29:09

moon base with actual people on it

29:12

is something that we can afford and

29:14

something that we could actually do. Yeah,

29:17

So if money is no object, can we

29:19

think our way around this? If money

29:22

is an object, the conversation always

29:24

turns to it eventually. Then how

29:26

much money is too much? How much

29:29

is just enough? Well? Yeah, the first when you're thinking

29:31

about something as high level and conceptual

29:33

is this, The first thing you do is, well, if

29:36

we were going to use everything that's available to us

29:38

right now, all the technology, how

29:40

much would it cost? Right, that's the that's

29:43

one of the major things. How much would it cost using this

29:45

stuff? And would that make sense for

29:47

us? It made the assumption, like

29:49

when it was first starting out this Project Horizon,

29:51

that they would be able to use existing technology

29:54

to do everything, at least

29:56

in the beginning. Yes,

30:00

in the beginning. That's

30:02

that's where everything seems so great, you

30:05

know, in the beginning. But

30:07

but here's the thing. They're already working on some

30:09

technology that wasn't currently available.

30:11

It was basically the R and D side of

30:13

what we imagine propulsion will

30:16

be. Like the dude

30:18

coal coal, coal, whatever,

30:21

whoever is homing uh

30:23

he was. He was working on

30:25

a liquid hydrogen rocket, a

30:28

liquid hydrogen fueled rocket that

30:30

could potentially get us there and

30:33

um, and again they're going back

30:35

to this idea that we have to make the entire

30:38

thing modular, starting out

30:40

really small. So the first time we land there

30:42

on the moon and we're gonna start an outpost, we

30:45

put a tiny little thing down there that's

30:47

not going to be fully functional. Essentially,

30:49

it's just gonna be a little outpost um

30:52

that we're going to continue to build each time we

30:54

go back. We're not just going to get there

30:57

and plant a base on the moon. And

30:59

we're also not going to throw anything

31:01

away. If we can help it, it will all eventually

31:03

become a piece of this outpost. Right. So

31:07

the idea here is that they could start getting

31:11

their collective ducks in a row in

31:13

nineteen sixty four, and they even thought

31:15

about how this would be designed. The

31:18

basic building block for the outpost would

31:20

be these metal cylindrical

31:22

tanks three meters or

31:24

ten feet in diameter and twenty

31:26

ft or six point one long,

31:29

and two nuclear reactors would

31:31

also be built there. They're building

31:33

nuclear well, they're transporting nuclear

31:35

reactors. They have to. They're

31:38

it's weird they're not building It feels like legos

31:40

to me, like nuclear reactor parts

31:42

that you kind of put into place,

31:45

right, I kea style assembly. But

31:47

did you ever play that Let's think about

31:49

it this way. Did you ever play that game where

31:51

you had to have a relay

31:54

with a egg in a

31:56

spoon? I had

31:58

never deal with it. That's a brutal creation.

32:01

When you imagine running, either one

32:03

will work mouth or the spoon. Imagine

32:06

holding the spoon in your mouth, is what I meant. Oh okay,

32:08

yeah, yeah, Well either way, imagine imagine

32:11

that egg is a nuclear bomb, and

32:13

imagine the run is running from

32:15

Earth to the Moon. That's insane,

32:18

that's what That's what they were proposing.

32:21

And then they're again, it's so

32:23

crazy to me. It's

32:26

not even getting to the moon. It's the

32:28

last jump from the orbit

32:30

of the Moon to the surface of the moon

32:33

with it with a nuke, or

32:35

in nuclear at least nuclear material

32:39

material that is radioactive

32:41

in that way. Right. So

32:43

the idea was, Okay, we'll figure out the details.

32:46

Well, we'll take these nuclear reactors.

32:48

They'll provide shielding and power

32:50

for the operation of the initial

32:52

quarters, and the equipment we used to make the permanent

32:55

facility will use every

32:57

empty cargo or propelling contain inner

33:00

to store more supplies life

33:03

essentials, and of course weapons.

33:05

Don't tell anyone you gotta have those space

33:08

guns. You gotta have your space

33:10

guns. Yeah, I mean, honestly, what they didn't

33:12

have lasers, you know,

33:14

they was they were really developing

33:17

guns they could fire in space. As we learned

33:19

in another episode, there was a pistol

33:22

right on board with the with the Apollo

33:24

program. Yeah, there was a

33:26

pistol with the Apollo program with the

33:28

lander, yes, right, just in

33:30

case. Yeah, and I think cosmonauts

33:33

had something like that too, if they landed

33:35

in territory where they might be attacked by wildlife.

33:38

Oh. So it was really about coming back to Earth.

33:40

It's about coming back. It was about coming back. But they

33:42

knew they would have to have some kind of weapon,

33:45

if not a projectile

33:47

weapon, they would have to invent's something that's

33:49

a big wink there by the way, just

33:52

for me, that

33:54

was in case they were aliens. I'm just saying, yes,

33:56

Yes, they had two types of surface

33:59

vehicles. One was lifting,

34:01

digging, scraping, because naturally you would

34:03

end up mining, right for long term viability,

34:06

in other words, for extended distance

34:08

trips, a little lunar road trip, you know, hauling

34:11

reconnaissance rescue um,

34:15

maybe a great sound system who

34:17

knows, just playing music

34:19

across the whole of the moon. And

34:21

they had they had this mapped out

34:24

in phases. As you said, at the conclusion

34:26

of the construction phase, the original

34:28

camp quarters would be converted

34:30

into laboratory and

34:33

the basic outpost just

34:35

to get the basic stuff that we've already talked

34:37

about, would need about a hundred

34:39

and fifty launches,

34:42

specifically loose Saturn rockets. A hundred

34:45

and fifty launches

34:47

didn't quite get there. Yeah,

34:50

that's so many, and we're you know, we were talking with

34:52

Marshall on our Mars episode

34:54

Marshall Brain Yes, about

34:56

how many trips it would essentially take

34:58

to get all the equipment and per Snell out there,

35:01

and it was a lot. But the simple

35:03

proposition of saying, we need to

35:05

launch rockets that cost x amount

35:08

of dollars a hundred and fifty times

35:10

in order to establish this moon base, and

35:14

then also another

35:16

sixty four launches every year

35:19

to keep it supplied and to rotate

35:21

crew members back and forth. So the idea

35:23

was that a perfect world that

35:25

people wouldn't be spending their entire

35:28

lives keeping nuclear

35:30

weapons at the ready on the Moon. Yeah,

35:33

yikes. See that's

35:35

the tenuous script. Though we

35:38

managed as a species to officially

35:42

do this kind of trip only

35:44

six times ever

35:47

with a tiny crew, and

35:49

in the post World War two economic

35:52

boom of the US getting

35:54

people to the moon. Now, like

35:56

what happens if you're on the Moon and

35:59

nuclear war break out in the US or

36:01

you know, in the world entire

36:03

right, what do you do? I

36:06

guess you start counting how many

36:09

days or months worth of food you have left.

36:12

Yeah, well, in this case, you're talking about ten to twenty

36:14

personnel that they wanted to have in this base

36:17

at any time, and that's a minimum. They

36:19

wanted a minimum of ten to twenty personnel

36:22

to run this thing. Um,

36:25

I don't know. They also started

36:27

game planning how to survive on

36:29

the ground attacks from Soviet forces

36:32

they want. Yeah, they wanted to surround

36:34

this thing with claymore minds

36:36

that would poke holes and pressure suits. Yeah,

36:39

that sounds scary. They also wanted to

36:41

have they give the inhabitants small

36:44

sub kiloton nuclear weapons

36:46

similar to things that were used in anti

36:49

tank weapons called Davy crocketts, that were

36:51

already existed. They were already

36:53

in play, and the idea was that

36:55

they could use these to blow up Soviet

36:57

moon tanks. Yeah, so they had anti

37:00

personnel tactics to

37:02

defend, also anti vehicle

37:04

tactics, and you know, they're

37:06

they're really again like it's

37:09

this um

37:11

it's this conceptual thinking of

37:14

war on the moon. That's

37:16

really what they're imagining. They're using

37:19

it for, you know, or at least they're imagining

37:21

it as a as a weapon

37:23

in itself, this moon base,

37:25

but as well as treating

37:28

it like a military outpost. It's

37:30

so odd to me, but I guess it makes complete

37:33

sense. And of course speculation runs

37:35

right with this. They're planning anti personnel

37:38

weaponry and they say it's for the Soviet army,

37:41

but the Soviet Army, as far as they know, doesn't

37:43

have the technology to do this. So

37:45

going back to your question, Matt, who are they

37:47

really planning to defend themselves against.

37:50

It's a great unknown. So those moon

37:52

rocks. I have sound

37:54

gardens. The entire time I was working in I said sound

37:57

gardens, spoon Man, SYC may have O's moon

37:59

Man, and I think it would be a worthwhile parody.

38:02

Is that spoon man with

38:05

your spoon

38:11

Yep? Yet yet and

38:13

we're suing. No, No, I'll

38:16

write the lyrics as fair uses as

38:18

a parody if we write the whole thing, which

38:20

I'm fine doing. Uh. The so

38:22

let's talk Turkey. Let's talk space Turkey,

38:24

nuclear space Turkey. How much did this?

38:27

How much would this cost? Actually, so,

38:29

the total cost for the basic structure

38:31

of the study concluded would

38:34

run in the neighborhood of six billion

38:36

dollars. That's in modern dollars,

38:39

roughly seven d mill per

38:41

year. On. The study also made a note

38:43

that this was not much more than the US was

38:45

already spending on its nuclear missiles program.

38:47

So it's a win win, And I'm calling

38:50

bs on those calculated

38:52

numbers from I

38:54

think it's easily three or four times that easily

38:57

easily. I mean, you get private companies

38:59

involved. It's this, it's tail

39:02

as old as time. You know, this

39:04

is the land of three hammers.

39:07

Yeah, how wait, what was the estimate?

39:09

I know, I figured you might know this, at least the ballpark

39:11

estimate of building the wall like

39:14

that that whole thing. I think it was in the like

39:17

tens of billions of dollars, right like forty

39:19

It was something crazy to witch wall the

39:22

border wall. Um During the election

39:25

there there were a bunch of estimates that occurred back

39:27

around around around that time. And if you're just

39:29

imagining building essentially

39:31

concrete and rebar structure

39:34

or you know, whatever material is on Earth,

39:37

now you're going to build a structure

39:40

on the Moon, even with

39:42

today's rocket technology. Um

39:45

wow. So here's

39:47

the question, did

39:49

they really build it? They be

39:51

in the US? Is that

39:54

the stuff they don't want you to know? In

39:56

the end, it looks like the same

39:58

international polity tis that inspired

40:01

Project to Rise and also led to

40:03

its early death. Neither

40:06

President Eisenhower nor Soviet

40:08

Premier Khrushchev wanted to spend

40:10

tons and tons of money for a new arms

40:12

race and outer space, where they were already

40:15

so busy waging multiple

40:18

proxy wars on Earth. So

40:20

they started negotiating treaties and agreements,

40:23

reaching the reaching the consensus

40:25

that stands today, at least officially,

40:28

which is there shall be no nuclear weapons

40:30

in space. No nation can

40:32

claim a celestial body as

40:35

its national territory.

40:37

We will see how long that holds. We'll

40:39

see how long that is the case. As

40:42

far as we know now, there

40:44

is no permanent base, no permanent

40:47

crude base on the lunar

40:49

surface. Again, as far as

40:51

we know, Horizon never progressed

40:54

past the feasibility stage. Eisenhower

40:57

rejected it, and the primary

41:00

responsibility for America Space program

41:02

was transferred to NASA, which is of course

41:04

a civilian agency.

41:07

While there may not be any current proof

41:09

of a permanent nuclear base today,

41:11

recently leaked documents reveal

41:15

that, no matter what was said at the time,

41:18

the US government Uncle Sam never

41:21

ever stopped thinking about

41:23

building a Moon base. Secretly,

41:26

when the microphones are off and

41:29

and things are closed at the Pentagon and

41:31

people are just hanging out secretly,

41:35

the US still very much wants

41:38

to build a base on the Moon, and

41:40

furthermore, is planning to do

41:43

so. They're worried now that new

41:45

players have entered the game, and

41:47

that's what brings us to a little thing called

41:50

Project Artemis, right,

41:53

yes, or just Artemis. Let's

41:55

just go Artemis. So the

41:58

Greek god Apollo, for

42:00

whom NASA's Apollo program was named

42:03

Apollo, had a twin sister named Artemis,

42:06

and NASA's pitch on this is that this

42:09

will be the banner under which humans returned

42:11

to the Moon. The Artemis program

42:13

was unveiled by NASA in mid May,

42:16

and the ideas that will put astronauts

42:18

on the lunar surface in four

42:22

Preparations have already begun, but

42:26

the problem is we don't

42:28

know how how certain how

42:31

we don't know how certain it is that this will actually

42:33

come to pass. So NASA

42:37

is setting the maiden flight of its space

42:39

launch system for next year twenties.

42:42

We record this. It's a giant booster,

42:45

it's taller than a thirty story building. It'll

42:47

blast a crew capsule called a Ryan

42:51

on an unscrewed mission to the Moon and

42:53

back. They're doing a dry run, and

42:55

then in they will have

42:57

a test with up the four astronauts, and

42:59

then after that they'll construct a small space

43:01

station orbiting around the Moon,

43:04

and then they'll dock a lunar lander in, assuming

43:08

the world hasn't burned down by then, and

43:11

then that same year in the

43:13

four astronauts fly in the Ryan capsule

43:15

to the station, get on board the lander, descend

43:18

to the lunar surface, and

43:20

then for the next three three to four years

43:23

they continue to do that, and then they're

43:25

really building a base. And one

43:27

of the biggest problems, the issues as

43:31

tends to happen with space exploration.

43:33

And I would say with NASA budgets in general,

43:36

is this this thing that we call sticker

43:38

shock. It's you know, we have all these aspirations

43:41

to do these incredible things, but the moment that we

43:43

realize exactly how much it's gonna cost,

43:46

everybody in especially Congress

43:49

because you've got elected officials, you

43:51

know, in the House of Representatives, the

43:53

Senate there, they see that kind of thing and

43:56

they think, well, how how are we going to

43:58

convince the American people that this is worth

44:00

it? Well, even run into that with the podcasts

44:02

sometimes, you know, certainly with everything

44:05

because it is you really have to take it into

44:07

consideration. In this case, I

44:10

guess the biggest pro con

44:13

thing that you put up there is if it

44:15

does cost this much, we have to be

44:17

at least achieving something that is worthwhile

44:20

for us, both as

44:22

investors and as a species.

44:25

And uh, sometimes it's tough to see that, right.

44:28

And then there's that argument about private

44:30

versus public ability or infrastructure.

44:34

Right. We know that there are a lot of

44:36

private companies who have taken up the

44:38

flag of state supported space

44:41

exploration agencies and

44:43

they're making they're making some serious progress,

44:46

but do they have enough heft

44:48

to get to the moon. Yeah,

44:50

you know, that's that's the tough one, it

44:53

really is. And let's just get back to that price that we talked

44:55

about with Project Horizon, that initial

44:57

estimate from eight saying that would

45:00

cost in what is nowadays

45:03

now dollars, the entire program

45:05

was going to cost around six billion dollars roughly

45:07

seven million a year throughout

45:10

the life of the project. There's no way, but that was the estimate,

45:12

right. So we're looking at

45:14

an Ours Technica article where

45:17

they're they're citing sources that

45:19

have told them that the internal projected

45:21

cost is six to eight billion

45:23

dollars per year rather

45:26

rather than per the life. Because we're

45:29

talking about a project that spans from

45:31

today two nineteen

45:33

until um.

45:35

That's a lot of money. And uh,

45:38

that's on top of the already existing budget

45:40

that NASA works with, which is twenty billion

45:43

dollars per year, right

45:46

right, which again they have problems

45:48

getting funding for that a lot of the time.

45:51

So let's be clear about that. According to

45:53

the internal estimates, the cost of the Arguments

45:55

project is not six to eight billion

45:58

a year, it's twenty six to

46:00

twenty eight billion a year, which is which

46:02

is because of the NASA budget, which

46:04

is yeah, so

46:07

so it's it's sticker shock

46:09

for sure. The question is if it's

46:11

worth it. If

46:13

there is a possibility of building

46:16

a sustainable lunar

46:18

colony of any sort,

46:21

then there is there's literally

46:23

no price you can put on it. There is

46:25

no way to

46:28

equate in numbers and no more

46:31

capitalistic people hate this idea that some

46:33

things can't be bought, but there is no way

46:35

to equate with numbers the value

46:38

of having a second franchise

46:41

of humanity just in case,

46:44

just in case, or in

46:46

many cases, but arguably just

46:48

before the old house burns

46:51

down, you know what I mean. And I'm not saying

46:53

that. I'm not saying that Earth is doomed,

46:56

but I am saying it is good to have some

46:58

insurance. We're not a

47:00

real great job at making sure

47:03

we try and keep everything running swell,

47:06

that's true. We're also we're we're

47:08

also pretty

47:11

in the dark still about how

47:13

people would how

47:16

a human population will reproduce and

47:18

grow in a lunar environment.

47:21

The gravity is so much lower,

47:24

you're exposed to a ton of radiation.

47:27

We don't know. We've never seen

47:29

a child created

47:31

and born on the moon.

47:34

There are a lot of unknowns, and

47:36

twenty six to twenty eight billion dollars

47:39

is is a high price to pay

47:42

for For ex I mean, what if we what

47:44

if we do all this? What if our species does

47:46

all this and it turns out that for one

47:48

unforeseen reason or another, it is

47:50

completely impossible for people to live

47:52

on the moon. Can we just,

47:55

um, just to that

47:57

point, been of how long people

48:00

would need to be on the Moon to really understand

48:02

having a child there, you know, having generations

48:04

who live on the Moon for at least an extended

48:07

period of time. Let's just talk about

48:10

the length that the crew of

48:12

Apollo seventeen, the final Apollo

48:14

mission, actually stayed on

48:16

the Moon at one time. How

48:19

long was it seventy four hours, fifty

48:22

nine minutes, thirty eight seconds. That

48:24

is the longest amount of time anyone

48:27

has spent on the Moon. So we're basing

48:29

it, That's

48:31

what we're basing it on a crazy

48:33

weekend on the Moon. It's

48:36

like when someone goes to Las Vegas for a

48:38

weekend and they say, I love it here, I want to live

48:40

here. Yeah, well, I albeit that's

48:43

with suits and technology from late sixties

48:45

and early seventies, but still, um,

48:49

I don't know. Is the human body

48:52

how well is it gonna do for months

48:54

at a time if you've got a you know, a

48:56

stint on the moon. The human body

48:58

is custom made for very specific environment.

49:01

That's a problem. And when you first said that

49:03

was with the suits and technologies at the time, I

49:05

thought we were still talking about Vegas. Got

49:09

we've been through this before, I think. But you two would

49:11

would both be game for a moon stint,

49:13

right, Yes, I it's

49:17

the calculus is a little different now that

49:19

I have wife and son. But I

49:21

think if he was a game, my

49:24

wife was game, we would

49:26

do a family lunar mission a

49:28

moon stint. Yeah, you have

49:30

the first moon Boy moon

49:33

Boy, writer, you're gonna do this. Moon

49:35

Boy is also an obscure Marvel

49:37

Comics character, so oh tm

49:40

writer, Sorry, we can't use that a

49:43

different one. He can be a

49:45

little moon rock. That's

49:47

not bad. Don alright, cool. I

49:50

don't know that i'd do it just for fun. If

49:52

we were living in sort of a scorched earth poke post

49:54

apocalyptic situation, I think

49:56

I would give it a go, But I don't

49:59

think I would just do it, you know, for kicks. I

50:01

hear you absolutely let us know what

50:03

you would do. Also, let us know whether you think

50:05

there is any possibility of

50:08

ACE a secret, actual

50:11

lunar base existing now, and

50:13

if so, why I

50:15

could see maybe a secret

50:18

an crude thing, you

50:20

know what I mean, one that is not populard with human

50:22

beings. But if you think there's one that is

50:24

living creatures on it and they

50:26

don't have to be human, we'd love to hear more,

50:29

and we'd love to hear your your exploration

50:31

of why. You can tell us by finding

50:33

us on Facebook, Instagram or Twitter.

50:35

You can also, as we mentioned at the top of the

50:37

show, call us directly. We are one

50:40

eight three three st d

50:42

w y t K. That

50:45

was a little odd. We put some put

50:47

some tonality to it, but I kind of enjoyed it. I've

50:49

been adding the tonality lately. Okay. It's

50:51

sort of a secret like subcarrier kind

50:53

of thing. It's got like subliminal messages on them.

50:55

Dope, Hey, find us on Instagram

50:57

where we're conspiracy stuff show. That's

50:59

right. You can find me on Instagram individually at

51:02

how Now Noel Brown, if you so choose,

51:04

you can find me getting kicked into and

51:06

out of various places at Ben Bowling.

51:09

I'm just gonna plug the new shows

51:13

um Monster Presents Insomniac

51:16

as well as Noble Blood because those are two

51:18

brand new shows, rather than my Instagram

51:20

because I don't have one. Sorry, guys,

51:23

congratulations Matt on those new shows.

51:25

By the way, Hey, thanks, I did minimal

51:27

things, but I made it happen. We're

51:29

gonna know what they call a facilitator, Matt. That's

51:32

right, we're gonna have our own Scott

51:34

Benjamin making a return appearance

51:36

on stuff they don't want you to know, long,

51:39

long, long time friends of

51:41

the show. One of the few people has been working year

51:43

as long as we have. That's right. He's gonna

51:45

come on and tell us all about Monster Presents in

51:47

Zomniac, and it's gonna be fascinating

51:50

and you're gonna find out, hopefully

51:53

a little bit more about the three of us

51:55

and how we sleep. Is

51:58

that weird? Maybe? Maybe it's weird?

52:00

Maybe maybe Do you think we'll get anything out

52:03

of you? Ben? So

52:05

thank you so much as always to call Michig

52:07

controlled decond and if

52:09

you are like many of our fellow listeners

52:12

saying, guys, have a great story I want

52:14

to tell you or I have experienced with NASA,

52:16

or I have experience with some other space

52:18

program and I've got some real stuff

52:20

they don't want you to know. But I hate

52:22

social media and I hate phones.

52:25

Why would I call someone on the phone. Well,

52:27

we have some good news for you. You can

52:29

still contact us with a good old fashioned

52:31

email. We are conspiracy at iHeart

52:33

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52:53

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52:55

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