0:00

From UFOs to psychic powers

0:02

and government conspiracies. History

0:04

is riddled with unexplained events. You

0:07

can turn back now or learn

0:09

the stuff they don't want you to know. M

0:24

Welcome back to the show. My name is Matt

0:26

and they call me Ben. We are joined with our

0:28

super producer, Paul Decant. Most

0:31

importantly, you are you. You are here,

0:33

and that makes this stuff they don't

0:35

want you to know. Today we

0:38

bring you two worlds that will smash

0:41

together. The world of

0:43

science, rocketry, physics,

0:46

and the occult, the mysterious,

0:49

the the void. M

0:51

hmmm. Absolutely and that sounds

0:54

maybe like a little bit of hyperbole, but

0:56

it's absolutely true. Today's

0:59

episode centers on something

1:01

that the three of us find fascinating

1:04

and we hope you find it fascinating too. It's

1:07

a little known cover

1:10

up that was quite successful for

1:12

decades. It occurs

1:14

in the United States, and

1:17

it does, as you said, Matt, combine

1:19

the bleeding edge of science with

1:22

the hidden dare we say occulted

1:24

heart of the dark arts? Yes?

1:27

And how different are they really

1:30

and we'll get into that too. The exploration

1:34

of mankind's abilities.

1:36

That's really what both of those pursuits are

1:39

like, what can we achieve either

1:41

with our hands or through our mind and through

1:44

some other plane that may be spiritual.

1:47

Right, and this also calls to mind the

1:50

old sci fi quotation that any

1:52

sufficiently advanced technology is

1:54

indistinguishable from magic. Right, And

1:57

there you have it. That is the end that encapsulated

2:00

to this episode. Yes, let's

2:02

start at the beginning.

2:05

Marvel white Side Parsons.

2:08

That's not a comic book Character's

2:10

his real name, Isn't that a great name? Is?

2:13

Marvel Whiteside Parsons is

2:16

born on October two

2:18

in Los Angeles, California. Yeah,

2:21

he's also known as Jack. That's

2:23

what he becomes known as. Yes,

2:26

Yes, And from his early childhood

2:29

days, Jack has an abiding

2:31

interest in rocketry.

2:33

At this point in the early

2:36

twentieth century, rocketry is

2:38

still seen very much as a as a science

2:40

fiction thing. Yeah, that's where it exists

2:42

in the pages of fiction, of drawings

2:46

of what a rocket could be like, right,

2:48

people landing on various lunar

2:50

shores, weird space

2:52

rocks and meeting you know,

2:55

martians perhaps martians, Yes,

2:58

some sort of uh, some sort of alien

3:00

that functions as a stand in for whatever

3:03

ideology the author dislikes.

3:06

There's a lot of There was a lot of communism

3:08

in space at the time. You gotta love allegory,

3:11

Yeah, especially when it's naked allegory,

3:13

you know what I mean. But Jack

3:16

swallows his stuff hook line and sinker.

3:18

He loves it, loves it, and I

3:20

think a lot of us can understand

3:23

that feeling. Right in, Jack

3:26

and his friend, a guy named Ed Foreman, start

3:29

experimenting with rockets on

3:31

an amateur level. Matt, have you ever done

3:34

this when you were a kid? Did you ever make and

3:36

launch those model rockets? Yeah?

3:38

Uh, And that's about the right time. When

3:41

he was fourteen, he was doing this. When I

3:43

was in middle school to high

3:45

school, my friend Scott and I would

3:48

spend a lot of time in the backyard experimenting

3:50

with chemicals and with

3:53

cardboard tubes actually, which is something

3:55

that Jack also did. Hey, Paul,

3:58

what about you? Were you? Uh rocketman?

4:00

A rocket boy and

4:03

so conspiracy realist

4:06

fellow listeners, Our superproducer

4:09

Paul has asked us to relay to you

4:11

because he won't record his own voice because he couldn't

4:13

get him on Mike. He asked us to relate

4:16

to you that he liked many of

4:18

us as a child bought

4:20

the rock model rocket kits experimented

4:23

with him in the backyard. Uh, and noted

4:26

there was an element of danger to

4:28

it. Yeah, there's like

4:30

there's an explosion that happens, and then

4:32

this thing goes up into the air really high,

4:34

and then usually at least in my experience,

4:37

blows up to some extent. And Jack

4:41

Parsons to let the

4:43

bad rout of the bag here. Uh. He is

4:45

from a wealthy family, a very

4:47

wealthy family, a very well to do family,

4:50

and he gets some leeway

4:52

experimenting with these rockets

4:54

studs something a lot of kids can maybe afford

4:56

to do. And even if

4:58

they can afford to do it,

5:01

not many of them have the ingenuity

5:03

perhaps to do this. So

5:05

his parents backyard is filled

5:07

with craters very soon

5:10

after he begins experimenting with stuff, and

5:12

his neighborhood is littered with

5:15

flaming bits of paper and scorched

5:17

cardboard tubes. Yeah, and this is a year before

5:19

the Great Depression hits, by the way,

5:22

So everybody's living living the high life

5:25

shooting off rockets in their backyard. Well,

5:28

at least Jack is right

5:30

right. And as

5:32

Parsons and Foremen go to high school,

5:35

they become captivated with how ingenious

5:38

is this? They become captivated with

5:40

the idea of creating a solid

5:42

fuel rocket engine. And

5:45

this concept at

5:47

the time is widely considered

5:50

poppy cock nonsense. If it

5:52

can't happen, why would you study that? Right now?

5:55

Yes? What are what? Are you? A buffoon? You

5:57

know what I mean? And to get on

5:59

the liquid stuff? And

6:03

if God meant rockets

6:07

to travel to space, wouldn't

6:09

God have put them there already? Yes,

6:13

one of those things exactly. But Parsons,

6:17

also as a kid, has

6:21

long, meandering teenage

6:24

conversations. I'm sure we can all identify

6:26

with some of with those situations, like when

6:28

you're when you're a teenager, you often get

6:30

involved in these epic marathon conversations.

6:34

You hang up, no, you hang up right?

6:37

So who is who is Parsons talking

6:39

to? He's he's talking

6:42

to someone who was born two years

6:44

before him, who was also a fairly

6:46

young man at the time, a man named

6:48

Werner von Brown, uh Magnus

6:51

Maximilian von Brown. There's

6:53

there's a lot more names in there. Um,

6:55

you might remember this fellow. He has kind

6:57

of become a name on this show.

7:00

Talk about him quite often that he's

7:02

the former Nazi scientist who helped to develop

7:04

the V two rocket for the

7:06

for the Nazi Party, and then he was secretly

7:08

brought over to the US via that Operation paper

7:11

Clip that we speak about, where over six

7:13

d scientists were brought to the United

7:15

States. Uh. And then you know, he

7:17

went on to develop the Saturn five heavy

7:20

lift vehicle that was used in the Apollo programs

7:22

that took us to the Moon, as well as the original

7:25

rockets that started the United States

7:27

space program. And there's like, there's

7:30

a whole other host of things that he

7:32

did for this country and for rocketry

7:34

in general. Yeah, it's a it's

7:37

a little bit of an eye opener for anybody

7:39

who just started listening to our show to

7:41

learn that the NASA

7:45

institution as we understand it would

7:48

not be capable of the feats it

7:50

is capable of without

7:53

Nazi engineering and

7:55

ingenuity. Yeah. And again

7:58

at this point, he's just a young guy.

8:00

Yeah, and I feel, you know, I feel weird

8:03

saying Nazi ingenuity. We do have to

8:05

point out Operation paper Clip.

8:08

It was a genuine conspiracy

8:10

and cover up that occurred. Um,

8:12

A lot of the American public did not know

8:14

about it. Would not learn about it for some time.

8:17

But many

8:20

of those scientists were

8:22

not necessarily like, they were not

8:24

ideological Nazis. No, they're the

8:26

greatest minds in their fields. Yeah,

8:30

and they some of them were only there

8:32

because they couldn't get out of Germany

8:35

before things went south, certainly.

8:38

So that's the this is

8:40

all this all stuff that neither

8:42

Parsons nor von Braun know about

8:44

at this time. They're just two rocket

8:47

nerds. Yeah, just talking on the phone.

8:49

And as he said, Matt, the

8:52

Great Depression hits here

8:54

in the US. We usually think of the Great

8:56

Depression just in terms of

8:58

its effect on this country,

9:01

but the Great Depression has consequences

9:04

that touch the entire globe. Right,

9:07

very few people accept arguably the people

9:09

responsible for the situation

9:12

escape unscathed in

9:14

most countries. The Great Depression starts in last

9:18

until the late nine thirties.

9:23

And because of this, Parsons

9:25

family is not elite

9:27

enough to survive the situation. So

9:31

instead of becoming increasingly aristocratic,

9:33

they lose a ton of money. And

9:36

this prevents him from completing his

9:38

higher education at Pasadena

9:40

Junior College and Stanford University,

9:43

and he ultimately drops out. Then,

9:47

in a moment of I don't

9:49

know. I guess this was just opportunity

9:52

fortune. Uh. In nineteen thirty

9:54

three, Uh, our

9:56

our gentleman here, Jack Parsons and his friend

9:59

Ed Foreman, they approach another man

10:01

named Frank Molina, and

10:03

he at this point as a graduate student at cal

10:06

Tech California Technical Institute,

10:08

and they asked for his help for his

10:10

expertise because he's already kind of working

10:12

in these fields, like, how can you help us

10:15

with rocket research that we want to

10:17

do that we're so passionate about. Right,

10:20

And Luckily for then Frank

10:23

is a pretty open minded guy. He

10:25

says, you know what, yeah, I'll team up with

10:27

you. Yeah, that's yeah, okay,

10:30

sure, let's do this. Guys. They must

10:32

have come to him with something very

10:34

compelling. Well also his field

10:37

of study concerned rocket treat

10:39

Yeah, well exactly. But but again it

10:42

for them to team up together,

10:45

the other two gentlemen, Ed and Jack must

10:47

have had some pretty good schematics or

10:49

some some math and or science worked

10:51

out to have Molina go, yes, let's do

10:53

this, right, yes, So it's a good partnership for

10:56

these guys because Frank is

10:58

bringing scientific rigor academic

11:00

discipline and uh,

11:03

these rocket heads. Can I say that, sure,

11:05

the rocket heads, rocketheads, these these other rocketheads

11:08

are bringing a lot of

11:10

practical knowledge and experience and

11:14

know enough about rocketry

11:16

to ask intriguing questions.

11:19

And intriguing questions are the best

11:21

way to talk to a grad student anywhere.

11:24

Grad students in the audience, you

11:26

know exactly what I'm talking about. Yeah,

11:28

these unanswered questions that perhaps we could

11:30

be the ones to discover the truth, and

11:33

especially when they're niche, because

11:35

you know, you have to imagine at this time, it's

11:38

safe to say that Frank Malina is probably

11:42

in need of someone to talk with about

11:44

rocketry. Yeah, because we're we're

11:47

in the days, you know, the mid

11:49

nineteen thirties and everything

11:51

up until this point, Like

11:54

we kind of mentioned earlier, rocketry,

11:57

the whole idea of jet propulsion,

11:59

these kinds of things. It's just it's something

12:02

of the future. It's something that you read

12:04

in a book somewhere, right, it's

12:06

a work of fiction. Nowadays, in

12:09

as we record this, the phrase rocket

12:11

scientist is almost always

12:13

used as a synonym for genius, usually

12:16

in a sarcastic way. Right, But

12:19

back in the nineteen thirties, pre World

12:21

War Two, most people did as

12:23

as you said, Matt, think rocketry was ridiculous,

12:25

eccentric and impractical.

12:27

You know, pseudoscience a sort of

12:30

hunt for fool's gold in the sky

12:32

exactly. Yeah. It would be like

12:34

if you went out to a bar right now and

12:37

someone introduced themselves to you as

12:39

a as like a teleportation

12:43

specialist or something to that effect

12:46

or research. I I researched teleportation.

12:49

I'm a teleportationist. Yeah, you're

12:51

like, oh, okay, well see you later.

12:54

Right, what do you really do? Well?

12:57

I attempt to teleport

12:59

things instantaneously through space

13:01

and time. At this point, it's it's mostly

13:04

on paper, but we're getting there,

13:06

and we've we've done some very interesting

13:08

things with very small bits of matter.

13:11

Yeah. I could totally see that

13:13

that's an interesting person, maybe at

13:15

a bar as a stranger, but that's not

13:20

that doesn't sound like it's a it's a real thing. Yeah,

13:22

you're probably not looking to get into any kind of business

13:25

venture with that person at this point. So

13:28

these guys are not being taken seriously.

13:30

Jack Parsons, head foreman, Frank Malina are

13:32

not being taken seriously. They form

13:34

a group called gal Sit Rocket

13:37

Research Group. They're

13:39

ridiculed by professors

13:41

and learned individuals

13:44

of cow Tech. They

13:46

even get a nickname, Yeah,

13:49

the Suicide Squad.

13:51

Not the DC universe,

13:54

I P. But yeah, the Suicide

13:56

Squad. And it's it's really just due

13:58

to the reckless nature of what they do,

14:00

how they perform their experiments,

14:02

these things explode, which

14:05

is mainly let

14:08

me go ahead and say it's mainly Parsons. He's

14:11

like, are you familiar with the

14:13

Stand? Okay,

14:16

So in the adaptation of the Stand

14:18

in the novel itself, which is which

14:20

is better than the adaptation, no knock on

14:22

the adaptation. But in the novel The Stand,

14:25

there is a character called the garbage

14:27

Man trash can Man's

14:30

that's his name, uh, and

14:32

trash can Man without spoiling the

14:34

story and without just being wonderful

14:37

to say yes, yes, uh,

14:39

trash can Man has a weird fascination

14:43

with blowing things up. And there's a little

14:46

bit of trash

14:48

can Man and Jack Parsons and Parsons

14:50

and trash can Man, you know, yeah, totally.

14:53

And so it's no surprise that the people who

14:55

are used to more buttoned up

14:59

conserve the experiments

15:01

and methodologies. It's no surprise

15:03

that they think this guy is just somewhere

15:07

between cartoon and a

15:09

terrorist. Oh yeah, well,

15:12

it's not like he conducts himself in

15:14

any of those manners that you're speaking. These

15:16

guys would probably consider

15:18

themselves and acted like um

15:21

like hot Shots part part two,

15:24

but but no for real, like like walking

15:26

around campus like, hey, how you doing

15:29

rocket scientists, ladies,

15:31

and also smoke a little pot, probably

15:35

drink talk about socialism

15:38

because they hung out al up. But it

15:40

wasn't just um hanging out

15:42

to build and talk about rockets. They

15:44

did have social lives and they spent that time together

15:47

and they partied. There goes the suicide

15:50

Squad. But by the way, I

15:52

know you you and Noel had mentioned this before,

15:54

and specifically I think you had mentioned this. But Castle

15:56

Rock just because we got into a Stephen

15:59

King novel there Castle

16:01

Rock. I'm finally starting to watch and

16:04

I could not I could not recommend

16:06

it more. How far are you? I'm only

16:08

three episodes in, but I'm just loving

16:11

all the little bits and pieces I keep picking up

16:13

from the universe. I'm very interested

16:15

to hear what you think about the end,

16:18

because the whole season's out now it is

16:20

Oh that makes me happy. And I think ten

16:23

episodes. So, without

16:25

saying anymore, I

16:28

don't know how to direct this in a way

16:30

that won't spoil it for you. Matt. How

16:32

about this votes. I would

16:34

love to hear what you think about this, Matt.

16:36

I know you would too, but we don't want

16:39

to spoil it for Matt. So if you

16:41

have strong opinions, I would

16:44

love to hear them. I'm a little conflicted

16:46

about the end. You can write to

16:48

me directly so that it doesn't go to

16:51

right to conspiracy. Just put a conspiracy

16:53

at how stiff works dot com. Just put a little note

16:55

in there that says at the top, Matt,

16:57

don't read this. There you

16:59

go, great, great, Yeah,

17:02

I want to. I want to hear what people think. Because it did get

17:04

renewed. Yes, so

17:08

trash can man aside suicide

17:10

squad aside Parsons

17:15

isn't completely counterculture?

17:18

In nine five, well,

17:21

in four he meets a woman

17:23

at a church dance incredibly common

17:25

way to meet people at the time, and in

17:28

nineteen thirty five he marries

17:30

her. Yes, ms Helen

17:32

Northrop, who

17:35

is the sister, the older

17:37

sister I believe of Sarah

17:39

Northrop Hollister. And

17:42

that's gonna come into play a little later,

17:45

so we're not gonna expound on that. If you

17:47

know what that is, you can just

17:49

put a little a little feather in your cap.

17:52

And if you're the sort of

17:54

person who cheats at cross words in trivia,

17:57

don't do it. You will

17:59

have an opportunity because we're going

18:01

to take a break for a word from our sponsor.

18:09

We know a lot of people dealt

18:11

with a moral or ethical

18:14

quandary, some of

18:16

you. To borrow the line from D and D, we're

18:19

very lawful, good about it. I

18:21

will not cheat. I will

18:24

wait to hear the story. Yeah,

18:26

did you did you eat that one marshmallow

18:28

now? Or did you wait until after the ad break to get

18:30

two marshmallows? Yeah?

18:33

Right? Or did you decide? I

18:36

do what I want? Because doing

18:38

what I want should be the entirety of

18:40

the law. So

18:44

many easter eggs already already keep going back to parsons.

18:46

So they

18:48

continue, despite the ridicule, to make multiple

18:51

breakthroughs in the study and manufacture

18:54

of engines, but more

18:56

importantly, rocket fuel, the

18:58

fuel for those engines. Exactly. They

19:01

actually received the first government

19:03

funding for a rocketry research

19:06

group, at least in the us. And

19:08

you know it's this isn't something

19:11

that our arch

19:13

friendom missis, I

19:17

don't know our nemesis slash

19:19

friend Jonathan strictly he would call

19:21

it a princely sum. But

19:23

you know what they do get where they get mad one

19:27

grand to get

19:29

a stack, they get a single stack. But

19:31

man, that is a nice stack at

19:33

the time, right, especially in thirties.

19:36

Right. And here's the

19:38

thing. They pretty much

19:41

they have to spend about

19:44

of it, about a quarter of this thousand dollars,

19:46

good chunk of the budget repairing

19:49

damage to buildings on the Caltech campus.

19:52

Damage you say, they've just they've been

19:54

blowing stuff up last it's

19:57

so although there. And also

19:59

they asked for a lot more than a thousand

20:02

dollars they got a thousand

20:04

dollars um.

20:06

So they have to spend a bunch of money repairing

20:09

the campus and the damage they've done to it.

20:11

Eventually they have to move from the campus

20:14

entirely due to the danger post by the explosives,

20:17

and they relocate to the Arroyo Seco

20:19

Canyon. They're conducting experiments

20:23

and someone's watching them. Oh

20:25

yeah, um, who is that group? Oh

20:27

yeah, the Federal Bureau of investigation

20:30

is watching them. The FBI. Yeah,

20:33

I think generally when you're making explosives

20:35

or things that can explode, that's you're

20:38

gonna get on a list. And they did. They

20:40

did get on a list. Also, side note,

20:43

maybe maybe we should come up with some

20:45

alternate some

20:47

alternate interpretations of the FBI

20:50

acronym, but

20:53

fully bundled

20:59

institute. That's

21:01

not fun Boys International, that's

21:03

it. That's it, fun Boys International

21:09

with a Z on the boys. Oh my gosh. All

21:11

right, let us know if that's a good T shirt idea,

21:14

and Boys International because we could get the we

21:17

could get the FBI logo. Yes.

21:20

And one of the reasons they're very much

21:22

interested in these gentlemen and

21:25

they're pensiant to blow things up is because

21:27

they're interested in extremists of

21:29

any sort that might want to

21:31

get with these guys and or just blow

21:33

things up on the site where they are now located

21:35

in that Arroyo Seco canyon right

21:38

right, Because they are literally just in a

21:40

couple of rundown sheds, iron sheds.

21:43

The security is not very high.

21:45

So in addition to being aware

21:48

of these um these

21:50

rocket heads political leanings

21:54

and the ideologies with which they identify.

21:57

The FBI is also aware of

21:59

the fact it someone

22:02

political extremists would be what we call a terrorists

22:05

today, that that someone could

22:08

ride up there in force, maybe with some firearms,

22:11

and take the explosives, take these

22:13

chemicals, maybe even take this technology

22:16

and launch a rocket at a bank, at

22:18

a city, you know, or just blow it up

22:20

from the ground level, or just blow it up,

22:23

that's right, without even bothering to deliver

22:25

the rocket. So

22:27

this is when the FBI first has their eye

22:29

on Parsons and co. In the

22:33

suicide Squad founds the Aero

22:36

Jet Engineering Corporation to

22:38

sell rockets to the military.

22:41

The scientists who had previously

22:43

derided and pooped

22:46

and pissed on Parsons work. Now

22:48

we're lining up around the block across

22:50

the country to join this booming

22:53

industry. Because Uncle Sam has officially

22:55

opened up his wallet, and

22:59

Uncle Sam's while it is big, it

23:01

is that that was so big.

23:04

It's so big, bit of you's

23:06

got a lot of money, and Uncle Sam doesn't

23:08

even really know how much is in that wallet because it's

23:10

kind of infinite, and sometimes that that

23:12

money just disappears in the level of

23:14

trillions in these weird little

23:17

black budgets or just a palette

23:19

of let's see a billion dollars can

23:21

disappear in recent memory and

23:24

barely make a mention in the news. Gets on a

23:26

plane. I didn't see it get off?

23:28

Did you see it? Get off? I don't know where it is. It's

23:30

gone. What am I a plane? Doctor? Who

23:33

knows? Who knows? It's not like we weigh

23:35

these things, right, Let's

23:38

get back to the real issues. Okay,

23:40

something social and insignificant,

23:43

perfect man,

23:46

we has? Has this show made a cynical

23:49

No? Has this show made you cynical? If

23:51

you're listening, let us don't. We've had a few

23:53

people right in about that. That's true. That's

23:55

true. And you and I have been in situations where,

23:58

uh, the

24:00

void stared back, you

24:02

know, or the abyss stared back. Kind

24:05

of always is staring. It's just do you choose

24:07

to see it or not? Yeah, me and the me

24:09

and the abyss have been making some smoldering

24:12

eye contact recently, made

24:14

some smoldering eye contact with the dude earlier

24:16

today all bore you with those details.

24:18

Oh yeah, I was gonna spring that on you

24:20

and ask you to mention that story at the end.

24:23

Maybe we can do that at the end, would you be okay with That's

24:25

perfect? Okay, And that's this is a Paul and

24:27

Matt story. So we'll

24:30

have to wait till the end. We're we're building

24:32

up expectations. Man, we better deliver ours.

24:35

Let's let's do it just like these guys. Let's deliver

24:37

a payload. There we

24:39

go. Now

24:42

again, Paul refuses to be recorded

24:44

on this show because he's worried

24:47

about his future political career. But

24:49

he did purposely turn on the mic

24:51

and chuckle it. He did. He gave me a little George

24:53

w. Bush chuckle it was

24:57

but that that was that was great.

24:59

Deliver the payload, okay. So the

25:01

industry is booming, right, There's

25:07

this need for advanced research

25:09

into rockets, and it's growing exponentially

25:12

because other countries are researching

25:14

this. And just as

25:16

the US is concerned about

25:18

the technological innovations

25:21

occurring in rival countries today,

25:23

the US is concerned back then of

25:26

possible technological gaps. Yeah,

25:29

because we have you know, you always have to be ahead

25:31

of your enemy. That's that's the whole

25:33

point that military thing.

25:36

And as we've discussed in previous episodes,

25:39

nation states don't have friends.

25:41

They have interests. Yes, So

25:44

Parsons co founds this thing called

25:46

the Jet Propulsion Laboratory

25:48

that you've probably heard of before, the JPL

25:51

JPO. Yeah, and they went

25:53

with this term jet propulsion at the

25:55

suggestion of one of the suicide squad

25:57

members, the third man, Malie

26:00

a Uh. And the whole idea

26:02

was to avoid the stigma associated

26:04

with that idea or term rocket

26:06

rocketry, right, rocket just as

26:09

a as a phrase. It turned a lot of people

26:11

off. We're just interested in this jet

26:13

propulsion. It sounds nice too,

26:15

because and you're like jets, you know, propellants.

26:18

Yeah, it's perfect. It's just those two things together.

26:20

It's just the means of transportation. They're

26:23

pre gaming before they go into a meeting,

26:25

and they're just coaching themselves not to say

26:27

the R word. Right. So

26:30

Parsons and his associates, without going

26:33

too deep into this, they play a

26:35

crucial role in the development of

26:38

rocketry technology excuse us

26:40

jet propulsion as World

26:42

War Two shifts into high

26:44

gear, and the contributions

26:46

they make also result

26:49

in financial

26:51

windfalls for

26:53

for all three men, but Parsons

26:55

in particular because he is

26:57

the mad jet fuel gene

27:00

us, which is also a cool nickname

27:03

yea. So we could spend

27:05

our entire episode focusing just on his

27:07

contributions to the field of rocketry, as

27:09

well as his obsession with blowing

27:12

things up in general. But there is more

27:14

to this story. You see. Jack

27:17

Parsons had another obsession,

27:19

one that was even stranger

27:22

than rocket science, and we're going to

27:24

go down that rabbit hole after another quick

27:26

word from our sponsor. Here's

27:33

where it gets crazy. In

27:36

addition to being obsessed with rockets and

27:38

rocketry, Jack Parsons was obsessed

27:41

with the occult. Yes, the

27:44

a coach. Yeah really,

27:47

these are what our colleague Lauren

27:49

vogel bamb we call actual facts. Right.

27:52

Uh. He is not

27:55

only obsessed with the occult, but there

27:57

is a strange can core

28:00

it in. It's a strange confluence and

28:03

concurrence of events here

28:05

because as his career

28:08

as one of the actually

28:10

the world's best rocket scientist jet

28:12

propulsion scientists. Oh yeah, thank you, Matt,

28:15

Sorry guys, as

28:17

his as his reputation grows

28:19

there, his association

28:22

with the occult also

28:24

grows and deepens, and he moves up

28:26

the rank in these esoteric

28:28

organizations, one in particular,

28:32

Yes, the O T O so

28:35

so in the late nineteen thirties, he

28:37

Parsons begins going to these nightly meetings

28:40

at the Los Angeles chapter of

28:42

the Ordo Temporari Orientis

28:45

or the O t OH. And it's an occult

28:48

society and it was it was

28:50

formed by a gentleman that you

28:52

also may know from this show. Wow, all the hits

28:54

in this episode, all the good ones. Mr

28:57

Alistair Crowley,

29:00

Can we get a sinister sound cue for that?

29:02

Paul? Here

29:08

we go? Oh, yes, quite appropriate

29:10

for the Master of the Dark arts. So

29:13

at this time, Mr Crowley,

29:15

notice I say Crowley and Crawley.

29:18

Uh, we learned from our mistakes

29:21

here people. At this time he's

29:23

known as the wickedest man in

29:25

the world. He's got quite the reputation.

29:27

Yeah. He's an English occultist, ceremonial

29:30

magician, um

29:33

cohn man all

29:36

these things, scam artists, yeah, novelist,

29:39

does weird things in old

29:41

ancient Egyptian temples, yeah,

29:44

uh. And an explorer. He is

29:47

a British fellow born in eighteen

29:50

seventy five. And as

29:52

we said, he is the founder of

29:55

maybe he would say, the discoverer, the

29:58

prophet of the O t O. And

30:03

when when Parsons is first

30:05

going to these things. He's he's a young guy,

30:07

he's in his early twenties, and

30:11

he's seen something that he would

30:14

he would have never seen before.

30:16

Right, he is watching

30:20

um magical rituals

30:22

being performed, and this affects him

30:25

deeply. But

30:29

it's easy to say that someone sees

30:31

a ritual and it affects them deeply.

30:33

That's what religion is about. These

30:36

rituals are much more graphic

30:39

than the typical rituals you would

30:42

encounter in most organized

30:44

religions. Yeah,

30:48

because we're talking about sex magic. Ultimately,

30:51

we're talking about chaos magic

30:53

rituals that a lot of times involved blood

30:56

and other bodily fluids and acts

30:59

of a arnald nature. Let's say, well,

31:02

and and this is you know, he gets married in five

31:05

and then now we're in the late thirties at

31:07

this time, as he's really

31:10

kind of coming into his own as

31:13

a scientist in this field. It's right, like

31:15

you said at that same time, this is before World War two,

31:17

this is before a lot of the huge

31:20

advancements in his career. As he's beginning

31:22

to go to these meetings. UM. But

31:24

he is like fairly newly married, and

31:29

I don't know. I can't imagine what

31:31

that relationship was like behind

31:33

the closed doors, what it was

31:35

like knowing that your husband is out going to

31:37

these things. Well, every relationship is

31:39

a foreign country. That's correct. Each

31:43

each interaction we have with any other

31:45

person, especially romantic interaction,

31:47

obeys its own laws and rituals.

31:49

Yeah, for sure. And

31:51

well, and the fact that the whole sex, magic,

31:54

blood magic thing is not the only thing going

31:56

on. Oh yeah. There's also a

31:58

ton of spoken word as actually invocations

32:02

um ritualistic chanting and

32:04

so on. And there's there's drinking.

32:07

There's more than a dollarp of headedi ism

32:09

as their conducting these

32:11

rituals. There's also the consumption

32:14

of various things

32:17

like this mason

32:19

gross to some people, but cakes made of menstrual

32:21

blood, for instance, mason gross

32:23

to people. I

32:26

don't want to denigrate someone's religion just

32:28

because it's not my thing, because that a thing,

32:31

is that a thing outside of this group. Menstrual

32:35

cakes, I do not know. Menstrual

32:37

cakes. I don't know, Matt Okay.

32:41

I guess it's kind of like the placenta eating

32:43

the placenta after birth, which is become

32:46

a thing, and it's quite popular. Yeah,

32:48

I look, I'm not in the O t O. Understood,

32:52

I'll be I'll be explicit about that, but

32:55

more or I'm not in

32:57

the I am not currently in the O t O.

33:00

But there's still around today.

33:03

And shout out to any of you who are currently

33:05

members of the organization have been affiliated

33:07

with it. We'd love to we'd love to hear more

33:09

about this stuff. Yeah, if you want to explain

33:12

menstrual cakes, I am all

33:14

yours and you seem very you're

33:16

fascinated with this. I

33:18

guess that's what you could call it. I'm concerned,

33:24

you get I wish you could see this face mats making.

33:26

Yeah, yeah, maybe you're

33:28

perplexed. Maybe that's a better word. This

33:31

group is practicing Crueley's philosophy

33:33

of FLIMO, which is at base kind

33:36

of um. I read it described as

33:38

religious libertarianism, which

33:41

I thought was pretty pretty neat way to encapsulate

33:43

it. This is the origin

33:46

of do what thou wilt shall be the whole

33:48

of the law. Yeah

33:50

right, we brought it back. Parsons

33:52

is hooked. He is very attracted

33:55

to this idea of radical

33:57

individualism, of nonconformity

34:00

and the focus upon fulfilling

34:03

oneself, your own goals,

34:07

and if anyone else is fulfilled because

34:09

you are fulfilled, then so be it. But ultimately

34:11

it's about you, right, and sort

34:14

of admitting the open secret

34:16

that most people practice,

34:18

which is, you know, we're all the main

34:21

characters of our own stories. Right, there's

34:23

nothing you can do about it. Nothing you can do about

34:25

it. Go ahead and try and break that ego.

34:28

Right, maybe you can. Yeah, I

34:30

don't know. It's kind of like you can. You

34:33

could be a cult leader, right and

34:35

make other people echoes of yourself anyway

34:41

that maybe that's Some people

34:43

who are in the O t O will feel that that

34:46

is unfair to Crowley,

34:48

but he is a master manipulator, and

34:51

this organization does

34:54

have a lot of manipulative

34:56

people in it. We'll see how

34:58

that comes into play. Parsons

35:00

is especially intrigued by Crueley's beliefs

35:03

that sex can be an intrinsic component

35:05

of magical rituals, that

35:07

it's not just um

35:10

a necessary but filthy act, as

35:13

some of the puritanical forces of the

35:15

time would have him believe. He's

35:18

he likes this idea of sexism

35:20

means of um

35:22

increasing epiphany. Yeah,

35:25

reaching some higher plane that you couldn't

35:27

reach just by walking around or thinking

35:29

about something or writing. You

35:32

know, there's a physical act that can take

35:34

you somewhere else and back to his

35:36

buddies, which, by the way, just just

35:38

before you get there, a physical

35:40

act that can take you somewhere else.

35:43

Think about within the context of jet propulsion,

35:45

right, what he's trying to create, the

35:47

technology that he is creating in tandem

35:49

with this is a physical way

35:52

to get to somewhere else the movie

35:54

or other places, planets, and

35:56

the idea that your thoughts can

35:59

have tangible material results upon

36:01

the world around you through the force of

36:03

your will alone. O t O is

36:05

all about the will, philemic magic

36:07

or whatever. And in the end, you know, it's

36:10

just physical forces involved. In one case

36:13

you've got explosions and the other you've just

36:15

got friction. I got

36:17

explosions. We're

36:20

a family show. But

36:23

yes, that that is a fantastic point

36:25

and there's something alchemical about that, right,

36:27

transformative and Parsons

36:30

friends back to the suicide squad. They

36:33

think this is really weird stuff. They're

36:36

they're not on board. They're like, hey man, we're

36:39

here for the rockets. We

36:42

already ate Yeah, I

36:44

mean we hear you, we hear

36:46

you, just not right now, right right right,

36:49

Um, you used to be cool, let's

36:52

be work friends. But they think

36:54

it's you know, they think it's weird, but they're

36:57

still genuinely friends. At first,

36:59

they just feel like this is a harmless

37:01

obsession. This is just Parsons being Parsons,

37:05

at least at first, Yes, and

37:07

then he just keeps going,

37:10

oh my gosh, So let's

37:12

let's talk about Filima. This this religion

37:15

that was founded. It is a religion,

37:17

and it was founded in nineteen o four.

37:20

So you know, at the time when Parsons joins

37:22

up, it's like thirty years old something

37:24

around. They are well thirty five. I guess it's pretty

37:27

young. Yeah, it's a young religion. Um,

37:30

it's as old as I am. If there is a religion

37:32

that is old as I currently am as

37:35

we're recording this podcast, it's very young.

37:38

However, like most occult practices, this

37:41

gentleman Alistair Crowley, he

37:43

argued that it's based on these ancient,

37:46

ancient beliefs, these esoteric

37:49

thoughts that have occurred far

37:51

far before he was born, far

37:53

before anyone that is on

37:55

earth was born. Um, that are forgotten

37:58

a lot of times or hidden or just

38:00

universal law that exists

38:02

that is bigger than our common

38:05

understanding of the world in which we live. Yes,

38:07

exactly, higher planes of consciousness,

38:10

stuff of the ooze. There we go. Yeah,

38:12

primordial. The word the lima itself

38:15

is a form of ancient Greek for will,

38:18

you know, as in like determination, not

38:21

some guy will. Yeah,

38:23

wouldn't that be funny? Though? It's just Will.

38:26

It's William William magic.

38:28

Uh. The limit. Magic spelled

38:31

with a K is a system

38:34

of physical, mental, and spiritual exercises

38:36

designed to quote cause change

38:39

to occur in conformity

38:41

with will. This is

38:44

going to be familiar to a lot of people who

38:47

have read things like The Secret or

38:50

Mind over matter type of stuff, manifestation

38:53

beliefs. Right, if you can believe

38:56

it, you can achieve it. So this

39:00

offers from some of that pop

39:02

psychology self help stuff because

39:05

it has specific instructions

39:10

meant to meant to accomplish certain

39:12

task. So Crowley

39:17

adds that K to magic because

39:19

he wants to differentiate it from stage magic

39:21

or illusion. Yeah, and it's not just switching

39:23

out to sea, it's adding a K to the

39:25

full word magic. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, that's

39:27

really important two Crowley,

39:30

Yeah, and to and to people who

39:32

practice this today. Many of the rituals

39:35

in this discipline are a

39:37

synthesis of older rituals,

39:40

stuff from the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn

39:42

and then practices from Eastern

39:44

belief systems. They captured Crowley's

39:47

attention, well, and that's Crowley

39:50

was a member of the Hermetic Order of the Golden

39:52

Dawn for a while, and he borrowed a lot of that stuff,

39:54

right, And

39:56

I think it was pretty open about it.

39:59

But like this is yes,

40:02

and there

40:04

are some examples of this kind of stuff. There's

40:07

a ritual

40:10

in the Library of Things that

40:12

he's written. There's a ritual

40:14

meant to invoke a holy Guardian

40:16

angel that you could have a conversation

40:19

with, rituals called Libra semic.

40:22

There's a gnostic mass, it's

40:24

a eucharistic kind of kind of ritual.

40:27

And then of course there's sexual nosis,

40:30

the idea that um

40:32

through physical

40:34

acts with oneself or another

40:37

person or people, it's

40:39

possible to achieve a higher plane of

40:41

consciousness, which for skeptics

40:44

is going to sound a lot like a

40:48

a way to convince people

40:50

to sleep with you. Well,

40:52

and it's also a It's

40:55

an interesting little litmus test. When

40:57

you're going through and trying to sell someone

41:00

on this religion. You

41:02

can tell if it's someone you wanted your group or not as

41:04

soon as you get there and you start

41:06

discussing how perhaps,

41:09

um, we will use

41:11

the word masturbation of you and

41:13

your friends here that we're all hanging out

41:15

with as I'm talking to you about this, that's

41:18

a that's one of our major rituals. And

41:20

a certain percentage of those people are going to turn

41:22

around, walk away, and then a few

41:24

others are going to go let me hear a

41:26

little more about this, And those are

41:29

the people that you want in your group. And it's probably

41:31

something. It's probably not something where they just

41:33

throw people to the deep end and escalates

41:36

over a period of time. Right sure, But a

41:38

little peek behind the curtain get you

41:40

your converts.

41:43

I'm thinking strategically and cult

41:45

formation and gathering the masses

41:48

right right right, the idea of being um

41:51

special or privy to this hidden knowledge.

41:54

But for people who do believe

41:56

this, do practice it, and do feel that

41:59

they have a tank um the

42:01

realizations for which they

42:03

yearned or the results

42:06

that they desired. This stuff

42:08

is legitimate so we're

42:10

presenting both sides of the belief. We're

42:14

despite not being in the O T O, we're

42:16

not making a judgment call about it. These

42:19

people are all in

42:21

theory, consenting adults

42:25

in full possession of their wits, as

42:27

long as you're not hurting anyone like

42:29

like say, branding them, uh

42:32

with with a cattle iron,

42:35

right, do what thou

42:37

wilt? You know what I mean? And

42:40

many It's important to mention that many

42:42

practitioners of this form of magic do

42:45

seek material, tangible results, money,

42:48

power, love, a breakthrough

42:50

in rocketry, for example,

42:53

But it's not a mandatory thing. Sometimes

42:55

it's just a higher realization.

42:57

Cruelly believed himself to be a prophet,

42:59

as we said, and Parsons

43:01

at this time is relating

43:04

the concepts of magic that he's exploring

43:07

to the ideas of quantum

43:09

physics and itself. Uh,

43:11

quantum physics is a relatively new concept

43:14

at this time. They're both in their own way

43:16

young religions. Yeah, that's

43:19

that's a really great point a quantum physics as

43:21

a young religion. I can totally see that. I

43:23

mean, when you get to the edges of physics, it's really

43:25

just the smartest

43:28

people in the room,

43:30

throwing their opinions at each other, you

43:33

know what I mean, which I think is a beautiful,

43:35

beautiful point for our species to be at.

43:38

So we mentioned that Parsons makes

43:41

a lot of money. He encounters

43:43

significant amounts of cash

43:46

as the US government continues to buy his

43:48

groups liquid jet fuel first and

43:50

jet engines designed

43:53

to run on this fuel. This money

43:55

allows him to start holding

43:57

his own elaborate o t o rich at

44:00

his house, which becomes known as

44:03

wait for it, the

44:05

Parsonage. Oh that's

44:07

pretty great, It's okay,

44:10

the parsonage. Well, hey,

44:12

hey, Ben, So

44:14

let's say I've got really

44:16

nothing to do. It's a Friday night. Um,

44:19

I hear about this new group. I'm

44:21

gonna go hang out at the parsonage here.

44:24

It's a good place to be. What am I gonna

44:26

get into while I'm over there? I'm so glad you

44:28

asked that. You're gonna get

44:30

it. If you can get in the door, you're gonna get into

44:32

a crazy time. These rituals

44:34

are very not safe for work as we

44:36

call it today, and they are wild for

44:38

the standards of the time.

44:41

There are people shouting chants during

44:44

massive orgies and on

44:47

multiple occasions there

44:49

Parsons is taking steps to attempt

44:51

to conceive the Antichrist, the

44:54

moon child wild straight

44:56

from the invisibles. Yes, while he

44:59

is at the forefront

45:01

of rocket technology, he is

45:03

attempting to be at the forefront

45:06

of Antichrist

45:08

advocacy. Wow. And

45:11

then he he finishes up, has

45:14

the I'm assuming the help clean

45:16

up afterwards, because you don't want to do

45:18

that on your own. I'm assuming. Uh,

45:21

and he's wealthy, as we said, then

45:23

you you know, put on your lap coat and head on

45:25

into work on Monday. I

45:28

mean we've all been in situations like that, right,

45:32

Yeah, Good fences make

45:34

good coworker relationships. That's

45:37

probably That's probably what his buddies are saying

45:39

to each other. Yeah, like, look, man, he's getting

45:41

that stuff. But man, he's really got

45:43

some great ideas. But when he's

45:45

when he's here, he's here. So

45:48

in nineteen one, things get

45:50

even stranger. Parsons engages

45:54

in an ongoing sexual relationship with

45:56

his wife's sister, who is

45:58

seventeen years old at the time. Underaged

46:02

person. Yeah, and here's

46:05

the problem. The group he's a part

46:07

of, the ORDO the

46:10

O t O. It's kind of encouraged

46:13

because it's something that he wants and

46:16

that's all that matters, and it seems

46:19

consensual to everyone involves, so

46:21

they don't call the cops or anything. And

46:24

well there's a flip side of the coin too. Parson's

46:28

wife is also in a sexual relationship with

46:30

one of these other most senior members

46:32

of the O T O. So there's this

46:35

um very open attitude

46:38

towards sex and very fluid relationships,

46:41

right, monogamy. That's something for

46:43

the squares. The Pasadena

46:45

police. Meanwhile,

46:48

I have been receiving repeated complaints

46:50

about unspeakable acts occurring

46:52

at the parsonage. Imagine it's the

46:54

nineties. You're one of the neighbors.

46:57

You live in a nice neighborhood. You're probably

46:59

wealthy, is you're don't, you're probably

47:01

well off if you're living next door to Jack

47:04

Parsons. And then you're hearing

47:06

these crazy chants, these moans

47:09

of of sexual ecstasy,

47:11

and then maybe some ritualistic screaming. You

47:13

don't know what's going on. It is funny

47:16

that at in every instance

47:18

they begin as just a simple noise

47:20

complaint and the officers show up,

47:23

and then they find themselves in a

47:26

very different situation. But there's

47:28

nothing you do privacy of your own home. Just

47:31

keep it down, please, I

47:33

guess you're right. Yeah, well that's

47:35

true. I don't know what the blue laws were at the time where

47:37

he is, like if he could actually be arrested

47:39

for doing something in his home um

47:42

thotomy and the like, yeah, or maybe

47:46

consumption of an illegal substance. The

47:49

counterculture is like the

47:51

Pasadena police Force, well aware

47:54

of Parsons activities, and in

47:56

a way he becomes

47:58

a precursor to the

48:01

common thing that we have here in the US today

48:04

on the West Coast, the billionaire

48:06

bro tech guru Tony

48:08

Stark esque genius. Right, he

48:10

makes massive amounts of money from his innovations.

48:13

He spends massive amounts of money partying,

48:16

pursuing alternative lifestyles.

48:18

And we can compare

48:20

it today too. Uh.

48:23

Tech gurs go micro docing at

48:25

burning Man and

48:27

and also come out with incredible

48:30

technology, or at least own

48:32

the companies that come out with incredible technology,

48:35

right, And there's this sense that they

48:37

are somewhat above the law

48:40

of the common peasant. Right. Note

48:45

quick cut in your head, folks to

48:47

that picture of Elon Musk on the Joe Rogan

48:49

show smoking a massive blunt

48:53

and you know his employees can't do that because

48:55

there would be problems with their security clearances

48:57

for SpaceX. Yeah. I really didn't think

48:59

that was when I just saw the thumbnail from

49:01

YouTube. That nice photoshop. Yeah,

49:04

that's funny. Oh wow.

49:08

I mean, I

49:10

it's marijuana. It's fine. It's legal

49:13

there. It's very close to being legal

49:16

across the US, you know what I mean. That's

49:18

just the money got too good. That's what happens.

49:22

The morality this is

49:24

a different episode, but the

49:27

the racism disguised as morality,

49:29

that was the original reason for

49:32

for the the criminalization

49:35

in marijuana. Just it doesn't

49:37

match up to money. Yeah.

49:40

That being said, we encourage you not to do drugs

49:42

everyone listening, unless

49:45

you want to. And that's all the whole of the law. So

49:47

there you go. Hey there we oh man,

49:51

no comment, no comment. So

49:53

the counterculture is aware of this.

49:56

This guy is an l M musk a Tony

49:58

Stark. Soon, another figure

50:00

of California's underground scene joins

50:03

the activities, a fellow named

50:05

l Ron Hubbard. That's

50:08

true, Paul, can we did a sound cue?

50:15

Great man? Who's

50:17

l Ron Hubbard? L Ron

50:19

Hubbard is the father of a little

50:21

thing called Diane Neddics.

50:24

It's a philosophy that he created,

50:26

that he summoned, and he would

50:28

later change his mind and create the

50:31

concepts that would become a full

50:33

on religion scientology,

50:37

a religion for tax purposes. Maybe

50:41

I don't know. I don't know. L Ron Hubbard was

50:43

thinking, Well, he

50:46

joins the gang. He joins the parsonage

50:48

in nine and

50:51

uh. Around this time, Fumboys International

50:53

removes their interests in Parsons, both

50:56

because they're concerned about his unorthodox

50:59

private life, his open practice

51:01

of the dark arts, and still

51:03

his political inclinations. These

51:06

may lead him to be considered untrustworthy

51:08

or sympathetic to communist forces. And

51:11

yeah, and in the worst he would be the

51:14

worst kind of mole, the person who is at

51:16

the top creating technology that will then be

51:18

used. You know, he's not some he's not

51:20

a rocket scientists employed by

51:22

this thing. He is the rocket scientist running

51:25

conceptualizing. Yeah,

51:27

he's at the point of expertise where

51:30

his best guest qualifies as leading

51:32

scientific theory. Yeah, you don't want iron

51:34

Man as an enemy, right there you go,

51:37

that's a good quote. Um, Yeah,

51:39

you don't want iron man is an enemy. And also

51:43

a someone who switched

51:45

or became a spy or double agent or a mole

51:49

for ideological purposes is

51:52

much more difficult to control than someone who

51:54

does it because they're in debt or they're being blackmailed

51:56

for instance, right, much

51:59

more dangerous also,

52:02

he so they're like, Okay, the guy's happy,

52:04

I don't think he's hurting anybody, and

52:07

we need rockets. At

52:09

this time, there's some personal problems

52:11

that he encounters. The

52:13

person that he's infatuated with, Sarah,

52:16

that's the sister of Helen, his wife.

52:19

She becomes infatuated with l

52:21

Ron Mr Steel your girl Hubbard,

52:26

and this makes Parsons insanely

52:28

upset and he starts delving

52:31

into He's moving up in the ranks of

52:33

the O t O, by the way, and that time getting into

52:35

leadership positions. He develops a different

52:37

focus. He has a deeper interest

52:40

in witchcraft and the darker side of magic.

52:42

He's fascinated by Poultergeist,

52:44

by spiritual apparitions. Man.

52:48

Feeling really tortured at this time and

52:50

being always

52:52

an innovator, right, he

52:55

decides to try and create a

52:57

new lover, to create his own lover

53:00

an elemental wow,

53:02

like like a like a golem.

53:04

Lover yeah, like um, like

53:06

a thought form he wants to manifest

53:09

perfect lover Uh. Sarah

53:12

runs off with l Ron Hubbard and

53:14

so Parsons takes

53:16

part in these very unusual

53:19

rituals. They're supposed to help him

53:21

manifest his thought into

53:23

the world. He uh.

53:28

He plants his seed with magic

53:31

tablets uh.

53:33

And he does it to the sound

53:35

of music, not the but

53:38

there's well and well. This

53:40

is something that's at the basis of most

53:43

chaos or some chaos magic where

53:45

where seed is planted on a piece of paper

53:47

that has writing and or a symbol

53:50

on it that is then burned a lot of times

53:52

like a run. Yeah.

53:55

And shortly after this, Parsons

53:57

meets a woman named Marjorie

53:59

Can and he feels as if

54:02

this is the elemental force that he has

54:04

invoked somehow conjured. She becomes

54:06

his muse, and he sees his

54:08

scientific and spiritual pursuits as

54:10

increasingly intertwined, you

54:13

know what I mean. He sees himself as of

54:15

the line of great

54:17

thinkers like Isaac Newton who totally

54:20

totally may breakthroughs

54:23

in physics, but then also totally

54:25

believed in alchemy and practiced it

54:27

and thought that perhaps the science was part

54:29

of the alchemy. Right. Yeah, so

54:32

Parsons is the same way rocketry is magic

54:34

and magic is rocketry. For example,

54:37

when he works on his experiments in the desert,

54:39

he recites a pagan poem to pan.

54:42

You can imagine how weird this sounds

54:44

to the g men. Fun

54:47

boys are not You're not having

54:49

fun. This is not as fun as It's not

54:52

as fun as the boys thought.

54:54

Uh. Parsons eventually runs

54:57

into financial trouble after he gets

54:59

involved with had investments associated

55:03

with l Ron Hubbard. This

55:05

is a pattern. Hubbert goes on to repeat,

55:08

By the way, is this the whole yacht thing? Mm

55:10

hmmmmm the yacht boys. Yeah,

55:13

Hubbard had convinced him to take

55:15

money and travel to Miami and

55:17

buy three yachts. Oh, three yachts.

55:19

He has a yacht thing. L Ron Hubbard has a yacht

55:22

at a time. That's that's

55:24

um. That's a lot. Many

55:27

of the

55:30

academics that are suspected of being Communist

55:32

sympathizers are blacklisted

55:34

as the Cold War sets in post World War

55:37

two, and this means it Parsons and a lot

55:39

of his colleagues lose their security clearances,

55:41

and without their security clearances, they

55:44

are out of jobs. Oh wow,

55:46

yeah, that is that is a sweeping change

55:48

that starts coming through around

55:50

that time. And then I can imagine someone who's

55:52

associated with something like the O T O and or

55:55

those old communists beliefs

55:57

that he even maybe had just back in the

55:59

day of the fun Boys know about um,

56:02

I can imagine him just getting xed off

56:04

that list. Right. So he found

56:06

himself having to earn money as a manual

56:09

laborer hospital orderly

56:11

a car mechanic. He was

56:13

pushed out of science, so he dove

56:16

even deeper into the occult. He

56:19

ended up working for the film industry making

56:21

explosives, creating pyrotechnics,

56:23

and just before he took a trip to Mexico,

56:26

or just before he was going

56:28

to leave on a trip of planned in nineteen

56:30

fifty two, he received a large

56:32

order of explosives for a movie and

56:35

while getting everything together, there was an explosion

56:37

involving mercury. Parsons suffered

56:39

fatal wounds and he died

56:42

at the age of thirty seven. This

56:45

was only seven he His

56:51

death was ruled an accident. His friends

56:53

suspected it was a state sponsored

56:56

conspiracy to remove this dangerous

56:58

mad genius on the fold. And

57:02

that's where it stops. Parsons

57:05

controversial private life lead him to

57:07

be wiped from NASA history and

57:09

that magic stuff aside, esoteric

57:11

orders aside. That's another

57:14

true cover up, and for

57:16

a long time his role was not

57:19

acknowledged. According to biographer George

57:21

Pendell, Parsons was written out of the history

57:23

books, his role in rocketry discredited

57:25

for decades simply because his

57:28

supernatural beliefs did not fit into

57:30

the other supernatural beliefs that were more

57:32

dominant at the time. I

57:36

mean, that's an interesting way of looking at it. Really

57:38

is. It really is, and I can identify

57:40

with that um holy

57:42

mackerel. It makes you wonder about

57:45

today the people at the bleeding edge

57:47

of science, what are their

57:50

closed door religious beliefs

57:52

bio hackers and stuff. Yeah, bio hackers.

57:55

I mean even like maybe your Illen Musk

57:57

and some of those people out there right now that can

58:00

essentially do anything they want to do at any

58:03

time. What are their spiritual

58:05

beliefs? And is there anything that's

58:08

hidden enough that we won't know about it? Oh?

58:11

I see, Yeah, that's a fascinating

58:13

question anything. You know what. You

58:18

had the opportunity to

58:20

ask someone about

58:23

this earlier today, you and

58:25

you and Paul both we didn't forget

58:27

folks missed that opportunity. There

58:30

is a story here, and it's

58:32

a story that I really enjoyed hearing.

58:34

I know that we've been going along, but can can

58:36

you give us just like the broad strokes,

58:39

the brad strokes. Okay,

58:42

you're there, the broad

58:44

strokes. Um. Right before that

58:47

we started recording this episode. I

58:49

walked in. I was heading in a little bit early so

58:51

I could continue researching here.

58:54

And I was running late. Ben was Ben was

58:56

not quite in the office yet. Uh. And

58:59

our prey is an ind of our

59:01

network. His name's Conald Burne. He

59:03

was showing somebody around the office and I'm gathering up

59:05

my computer and my books and everything, and

59:08

I'm heading in. And you

59:10

know, I don't think about that because our president walks

59:12

around with important people all the time. I don't

59:14

know who walk around with anyway.

59:17

Um. Donald says, hey, Matt,

59:19

this is my friend Brad And

59:22

you know, I just turn and put my hand out

59:24

and it's just is Bradley Cooper standing

59:27

there staring at me. Um with those

59:29

beautiful blue eyes. My goodness,

59:32

they're striking. But anyway,

59:35

here's the thing, and I hope, I hope you

59:37

wouldn't be upset to mention

59:39

this. But we begin chatting,

59:41

and we get into some conversations

59:44

about the Apollo

59:47

missions, and then he wants to

59:49

talk a little bit about September

59:51

eleven, and then we want to talk about a little bit

59:53

about these other conspiracies, and uh,

59:55

the guy I think would fit right

59:57

in with us um and and perhaps

1:00:00

that's just because he's such an enigmatic

1:00:02

person that he will engage

1:00:04

you in anything you want to talk about. But I

1:00:06

did not bring up either of those

1:00:09

subjects. So there you

1:00:11

go. So there you go. How

1:00:14

Matt and Paul met Bradley

1:00:17

Cooper, Yes, and Paul Paul

1:00:20

met Bradley a little later over

1:00:23

by the water cooler and they had

1:00:25

a very nice conversation about his new movie coming

1:00:27

out by the way, that he is his directorial

1:00:29

debut and he's working with Lady Gaga.

1:00:32

Is called a Star is Born. There you go, plug

1:00:34

for Bradley Cooper. You're

1:00:37

welcome, brad uh and thank

1:00:39

you everyone for tuning in. We

1:00:43

we want to know where you land on this, I

1:00:45

think. Now the story of Jack

1:00:47

Parsons and his legacy is a little more

1:00:50

apparent in the public sphere. It's more common

1:00:52

knowledge. But do

1:00:54

you feel that as a society

1:00:57

our norms limit or

1:01:00

ability to innovate technologically,

1:01:03

you know what I mean? Like interesting, like the

1:01:05

US government and this may apply. This

1:01:08

surely applies to other governments as well.

1:01:10

The US government in the past had a very

1:01:12

difficult time hiring quality hackers

1:01:15

because of their affinity

1:01:18

for drugs. And you know, they

1:01:20

were brilliant minds, brilliant

1:01:22

computer people, but they

1:01:25

didn't want to stop smoking weed or

1:01:27

stop you know, doing whatever drug they do.

1:01:29

And they have to be clean to pass the security

1:01:31

clearance. That's

1:01:34

fascinating. So eventually

1:01:36

they, I believe in many cases,

1:01:38

eventually the US government just folded

1:01:40

and made exceptions to the rule. Do you

1:01:43

think those exceptions should exist?

1:01:45

Let us know. You can find us on Instagram, Facebook,

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page. Here's where it gets crazy, where

1:01:52

there are tons of fascinating

1:01:55

conversations in the mean game

1:01:57

is a double plus good? It really

1:01:59

is? Okay, and uh, if you want

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