0:00

From UFOs to psychic powers

0:02

and government conspiracies. History

0:04

is riddled with unexplained events. You

0:07

can turn back now or learn

0:09

the stuff they don't want you to know. A

0:12

production of I Heart Radio. Hello,

0:24

welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,

0:26

my name is Noel. They called me Ben.

0:29

We're joined as always with our superproducer

0:31

Alexis code name Doc Holiday Jackson.

0:34

Most importantly, you are you. You

0:36

are here, and that makes this stuff

0:39

they don't want you to know. It's

0:41

the top of the week, which means it is time

0:43

for our strange news segment.

0:46

There's some scandal at the post

0:48

office. And don't worry, folks,

0:51

this is not the US post Office for

0:53

the first time in a long time. That's the subject

0:55

of scandal. Uh TikTok

0:57

is in what maybe a little bit of water

1:00

and there may be a new

1:03

Heaven's Gate on the

1:05

rise. This this story

1:08

in particular about a group

1:10

called Love is One. This

1:12

stood out to me because I know we've got a

1:14

lot of folks in the crowd who, like

1:16

me, kind of monitor cults

1:19

before they hit the news in a big

1:21

way, before something terrible happens to them.

1:24

Would you guys be okay with starting with that story

1:26

today. Absolutely, yes, I'm

1:28

always looking for a new group to join.

1:30

I love making friends, and I look forward to learning

1:33

about this one. Ben. We still we had

1:35

a great thing going with that earlier cult.

1:37

I want to thank you again for being the messianic

1:39

figurehead there, Matt. I think we made a

1:41

lot of progress in the space of a seven

1:43

minute video, you

1:45

know what. Matt, speed to you, sir,

1:48

and Matt speed to you, my friend.

1:50

Uh So, everybody

1:53

probably is at least a little bit

1:55

familiar with the tragic

1:57

story of the Heaven's Gate Cult back

2:01

in nineteen seventy four. They

2:03

were founded as a new religious

2:06

movement with a lot of UFO

2:08

ideation, and this was

2:10

a cult that had this ending

2:12

point. They believe that after the Hilbop

2:15

commet zinged past

2:17

Earth, there would be a number

2:19

of spacecraft coming to retrieve

2:21

the fateful. This unfortunately

2:23

led to a mass suicide as

2:26

members of the movement took

2:28

their own lives in an effort to

2:31

join those extraterrestrial

2:33

craft that they thought they thought they would

2:35

meet them in an immaterial or

2:37

different form. That occurred in October

2:39

of stories

2:42

like these are unfortunately

2:44

not unique in the world

2:47

of new religious movements,

2:49

which if you're ever talking to

2:51

someone that you think is an occult new

2:53

religious movement, is more like, is the

2:55

more diplomatic way to describe

2:57

their organization, because as we know, as

3:00

we've learned from correspondence over

3:02

the year, in fact, a

3:04

lot of people don't like the C word. Uh.

3:07

They might even dislike it more

3:09

than the other C word that we referred

3:11

to here in the US conspiracy theory,

3:14

No, that would be I really thought you guys were

3:16

going a different way with that. Yeah.

3:18

CT is a common abbreviation for

3:20

conspiracy theory if you're ever reading something

3:23

on a forum, but they both accomplished the same

3:25

thing, Like, a cult is a term that

3:27

is used to kind of nagg whatever

3:30

comes after it. Like, if you're referring

3:32

to someone's belief system as a cult, uh,

3:35

then you are inherently judging it and

3:37

applying certain criteria to it that are inherently

3:39

negative in the same way as

3:41

a conspiracy theory is used in that way.

3:44

Yeah, and the modern parlance those

3:46

could be those could both qualify

3:48

as what are known as thought terminating clichees.

3:52

Our story for I have found

3:54

this when I was reading some local papers in

3:56

the Pacific Northwest, uh

3:58

for a different thing. But our story

4:01

begins with a report from

4:03

the Mount Shasta News. This

4:06

is a local paper in the area,

4:08

and they had a headline that really caught me and said

4:11

spiritual group compared to Heaven's

4:13

Gate cult is planting roots in

4:15

the Mount Shasta area. This came out

4:17

today, as we record, but the

4:19

group itself was familiar

4:22

to me from some other reading. They

4:24

have a really interesting name. They're called Love

4:27

Has One. Uh odd

4:30

to choose that past tense for

4:32

the name of a new religious movement, but it

4:34

happens points for creativity. It

4:37

is led by a person named

4:39

Amy Carlson. If

4:41

you are familiar with the cult, you might not know where

4:44

is Amy Carlson because she is referred to

4:46

as Mother God by

4:48

her followers and her

4:51

lover or her partner, whoever

4:53

it may be at the time, is also automatically

4:55

referred to as Father God. So at

4:58

this time, Mother God,

5:00

Amy Carlson's everyone outside of the movement

5:02

is about forty four years old. Here's

5:05

what the followers believe. They believe that

5:07

she has been reincarnated hundreds

5:09

and hundreds of times. They also believe that

5:12

she has been in contact with Robin Williams

5:14

since he passed away. In that's

5:17

just one of the beliefs that outsiders will

5:19

point to as the more

5:22

bizarre part of the story.

5:24

Uh. Specifically, the mission

5:27

of this religious movement is

5:29

to follow Carlson because one

5:32

day she will lead one hundred

5:34

and forty four thousand chosen people

5:36

into a new mystical fifth

5:38

dimension. She has

5:40

also said that former US President

5:43

Donald Trump was her father in

5:45

a past life. They had a great relationship.

5:47

In case anyone is concerned, UH,

5:50

there's something that happens a lot

5:52

with these kinds of movements, which is

5:54

there's a growing discrepancy between

5:57

the narrative offered

6:00

by the former members

6:02

of the organization and the narrative offered

6:05

by the spokespeople of

6:07

the group. This is something we're familiar

6:09

with anytime you talk about movements

6:12

that are you know, that have this level of

6:14

controversy. Scientology

6:16

is of course the easiest example, but

6:18

I promise you there are numerous examples

6:22

out there. Uh. Mother God

6:24

claims that she has been trying to save humanity

6:26

for nineteen billion years,

6:30

which is interesting because

6:32

what we know of current science shows us

6:34

that humans were probably not around

6:37

nineteen billion years

6:39

ago. You can see an

6:41

episode of Vice

6:43

about them. It's the first episode

6:46

of a series called False Gods, and

6:49

you can see the allegations

6:51

of UM, the

6:53

allegations of mistreatment and abuse

6:56

in this religious movement. Uh.

6:58

So far, I haven't been able to find

7:01

anything that's as egregious

7:04

as UM some of the other things

7:06

that we know cult movements do. Like I

7:08

haven't found any fatalities. I

7:10

haven't found I

7:13

haven't found extreme injuries.

7:16

But I have seeing

7:18

videos of Carlson

7:20

that show her verbally abusing

7:23

people, screaming at her followers, abusing

7:26

animals, having children

7:28

locked in the closets for being kids.

7:31

You know, That's that's one thing that a lot of a

7:34

lot of cult like movements do, is they

7:36

you know, they punish people through their children. It's

7:39

enormously effective because that's one

7:41

of the closest relationships human

7:43

being has. There have also been

7:46

allegations that members are underfed,

7:49

they're never paid for their work, they're

7:52

never allowed to sit down. And

7:54

although the movement

7:57

itself, like if you

7:59

if you hear the spokespeople say the movement

8:01

itself is UM. Maybe

8:03

a little bit more on the hippie side. But in

8:05

general they seem like really nice

8:08

people who just happened to believe something different.

8:10

Uh. But everything that the

8:13

everything the survivors of the cult are

8:15

describing is troublingly

8:18

close to the guidelines

8:20

we made in our earlier video about how to make

8:22

a cult. Their brainwashing people. They're

8:25

regimented, their free time has gone, relationships

8:28

are broken down. We also

8:30

see that some cures

8:33

have been promised to people, and these

8:36

cures are things like you

8:38

can talk to Mother God on the phone, and

8:41

through that phone conversation she can

8:43

cure cancer. U. We

8:45

also see a little bit of a hubbard esque

8:47

thing here, because Hubbard would

8:50

not allow, you know, drug and alcohol

8:52

abuse, but he didn't practice

8:54

what he preached. Oh

8:57

we got I'm gonna Can I take a tangent

9:00

really quickly and get right back to here, please

9:02

do absolutely? Okay. We

9:04

We had a listener voicemail that I just

9:06

heard. I went through a couple of them today and

9:09

someone left a message

9:11

asking us if we knew anything about

9:14

a bet l Ron Hubbard made

9:16

with some other person at

9:18

a bar about whether

9:20

or not he could begin a

9:23

religious movement that would function

9:25

as a tax haven and bring him

9:27

great wealth. Um, well,

9:32

yeah, I had not heard. You know, I've not

9:34

seen any evidence of that. I think

9:36

if there were evidence of that that was you

9:39

know, blatant or just out there in

9:41

the public sphere, then that

9:44

would be a big issue, or it would be just completely

9:46

you know, denied and pushed away.

9:49

But anyway, just putting that out there, I've

9:51

heard that. I've heard a couple of versions

9:53

of that anecdote enough to convince

9:56

me that at least several

9:58

times in conversation he had made

10:00

statements about, you know why,

10:04

about how the the real money was

10:06

in not writing fiction, but in starting

10:09

a religion right for the tax purposes

10:12

and other other side

10:14

benefits of being a religious figure

10:16

that we've named earlier, so we knew

10:18

we talked about in conversation. As far as

10:20

a specific bet, I

10:23

am not aware. I haven't found

10:25

proof of that, but I've heard that story before.

10:28

I just don't I haven't found

10:31

a good source for that yet, But

10:33

maybe it could have happened. It does seem

10:36

a little, you know, very much in his character

10:38

being kind of a blustery, braggadocious

10:41

figure, right, I could see him

10:43

like say, hey, look what I'm gonna do or no

10:46

to your point, bend just kind of bragging about how

10:48

this is a brilliant idea that no one else has

10:50

thought of, and to be fair, I mean he pulled it

10:52

off in a much more

10:55

outlandish form than just about any

10:57

other figure of his type in

11:00

recent in recent time.

11:04

So we see some parallels

11:06

in scientology in the world

11:08

of scientology, no or on Hubbard and specific.

11:11

But again we see a lot of

11:13

parallels in these

11:15

types this genre of religious movement

11:18

in general. You know, when you when

11:20

it comes down to the psychological

11:22

aspects of most new religious

11:25

movements, they're not very

11:27

different at all. You know, there's a

11:29

mad lib mythology right

11:31

where you can slot in one thing slot out another.

11:34

But when it comes to how people are

11:36

treated, uh, it's often going

11:38

to be the same um negation

11:41

tactics. You want to diminish people,

11:43

You want to make them feel less

11:45

than and that you're their only hope, and you

11:47

want to find like little

11:49

little things that you can use

11:52

to to like try to make

11:54

them feel as though they are somehow inferior.

11:57

In The sad part about these sorts of approach

12:00

is is unless

12:02

someone is expecting them,

12:04

if they make the mistake of trusting you, then

12:07

they can be effective. And

12:09

this this goes into another

12:12

commonality that we should probably talk about a

12:14

little bit, like Heaven's Gate comparisons.

12:16

Those are good headline grabber, but

12:18

they lead us into I would argue,

12:21

a conversation about language. Language

12:24

is another wall you put up around

12:26

a group to isolate them, And

12:28

Matt, this is something that's stuck out to you as well,

12:30

right, Yeah, the the language of groups,

12:33

I think is something that I end up harping

12:35

on a lot of the time, and I'm sorry to do

12:37

so. And everybody who's getting tired of this conversation,

12:43

I love this you. I

12:45

mean, I know I'm not the audience member here,

12:47

but you speaking my language? Get

12:49

it? Oh? Okay. So if

12:52

you go to love has

12:54

one dot org, which is this

12:57

organization's website, you can

12:59

see lot of stuff here about Mom

13:02

herself. Even says about

13:04

Mom in one tab. There's another tab

13:06

that you can click on that says five D

13:09

updates. And if you go here

13:12

you can read your you can see

13:14

what I'm talking about. This is just some

13:16

of the language that's used on the website, and

13:20

specifically I'm talking about the phrasing

13:23

here stuff that is

13:25

maybe insular to the group, as

13:27

well as what appears to be urgent

13:30

messages that have consequences.

13:33

So so failure to take action feels

13:35

like it has a consequence. So let's let's just talk about

13:37

this, okay, So here we go. It says,

13:40

Planet Earth equals Heart is

13:42

ascending. We are finishing, as you said,

13:44

been a nineteen billion year

13:46

mission. But notice this, they are finishing

13:49

a nineteen billion year mission.

13:52

Are you getting the codes? I'm

13:54

not getting the codes, guys. I don't know about y'all. Uh,

13:57

so far I haven't gotten them. Says do

13:59

you read the daily updates that will

14:01

allow you to prep a bit more for

14:03

what's coming. That sounds

14:06

a lot like the contract that you enter

14:08

into and you become a scientologist,

14:11

is in a billion year contract or something

14:13

like that. Yeah, but this is up in the games into nineteen

14:15

or at least it's been happening already. Well, but

14:17

I love that it's a mission instead of a contract.

14:20

I think that's interesting. So obviously

14:22

the code is up, up, down, down, left,

14:24

right, left, right, b A. I think we can all

14:27

agree on that one. Don't forget

14:29

start, don't forget start. Ben. So the

14:31

the The interesting

14:34

distinction here, I would say, is that

14:36

this is what's drawing the Heavens Gate comparison

14:39

that by their own official

14:41

statements there at the end of the mission, what

14:44

does the end of the

14:46

mission mean? Is this?

14:48

Um? Is this in

14:51

some way baking in

14:53

its own finishing line? And

14:56

if so, what happens

14:58

when you cross that finish same

15:00

line? It's it's dangerous

15:03

because and there are you know, there are places

15:05

like Cult Watch and nonprofits that try

15:07

to keep an eye on these things. But

15:10

the the issue is that when

15:13

you join an organization like

15:15

this, you are brought in

15:17

through a series of very

15:20

well thought out strategies,

15:22

you know, like the infamous love bomb, where

15:25

people tell you that you're the greatest, and then you

15:27

start getting support that maybe you never had

15:30

in your pre cult life.

15:33

Uh. And then you start the

15:35

cracks begin to show. Right. You

15:37

see that there is

15:39

a careening abuse problem here.

15:42

Apparently there are.

15:45

There are multiple reports of

15:47

abusive behavior and drinking. Uh.

15:50

And another thing that has

15:52

some observers worried about this

15:55

possibly going sideways is

15:57

that Carlson's health

15:59

is in decline. UH.

16:02

We also don't authorities don't know her

16:04

location either, so she's

16:07

kind of going off the grid. Uh.

16:09

And when you

16:11

have a messiodic figure like this, when

16:15

they decide that their

16:17

life is ending, sometimes their

16:20

teachings change in a way that

16:23

isn't always great. Or when they decide

16:25

their organization is ending. Uh, these change

16:27

in a way that isn't always great for

16:30

the followers. Right now, this is

16:33

very small. I think they

16:35

have twenty something

16:37

full time members, so this is a

16:39

very close insular group. But

16:41

it's something that I wanted to bring attention to

16:43

today because fellow

16:46

conspiracy realists the

16:48

there are so many more groups like this

16:50

in the US and abroad than you might believe

16:53

exists. Uh. There are cult

16:56

de programmers who have try

16:59

to put this in the perspective

17:01

of the larger context of modern

17:04

new religious movements in the

17:06

West. But the

17:08

problem here is you can't really predict

17:11

what's going to happen. The full time

17:13

followers are all over eighteen, they're

17:15

legally adults, so you can't stop

17:17

them from following this person

17:19

that they believe is their mom.

17:22

The leader phrases it in a very um

17:25

well, it's not supposed to sound threatening.

17:27

Let me just read the quote that she says in one

17:29

of these videos. Let me know what you all think. Uh.

17:32

She says this five and

17:34

thirty fourth reincarnation is her quote,

17:37

quest to recover my beloved planet,

17:39

the center of the universe and the first planet

17:41

I created. The planet

17:43

is ascending and you need to reconnect

17:45

with the prime source creator me. Yeah,

17:49

that's a quote. They've even got

17:51

on Dr Phil on their website

17:53

when you click on about Mom

17:55

so like it. This is her quote. Uh

18:00

yeah, oh did you did you read

18:02

about the dark forces kidnapping my planet?

18:04

Is that we haven't

18:06

read that part yet. So apparently

18:11

Mother God has had it up

18:13

to some metaphysical here with

18:15

dark forces kidnapping her

18:18

planet and her children, and that's what

18:20

brought her to reincarnate in the flesh

18:23

again. You know, your spiritual beliefs

18:25

or your own, And we're

18:28

not fans. I'm not a fan definitely

18:30

of people telling you what to believe, So

18:33

do as you will as long as you're not hurting someone else.

18:36

But the problem here is this situation

18:39

looks pretty unsustainable. So

18:42

so at this point, the residents

18:44

of Mount Shasta are worried. Some

18:47

family members of people have joined the movement

18:49

are worried. And the things

18:51

that people who have left the movement are saying

18:54

absolutely do not match what

18:57

is being presented on their official website

18:59

or by their spokespeople. I

19:01

can't help but think of the Futurama

19:04

villain Carol Miller, who is the CEO

19:06

of Mom Corps and is known as

19:08

mom Um. And I looked.

19:11

I looked this character, so just making sure I wasn't like

19:13

totally making this up. But on the Wikipedia

19:16

Villains wiki, um, the quote

19:18

that that sets off the Mom

19:20

page on on this wiki is

19:22

children, your old mother won't be around forever.

19:25

And just once before I die, I'd like to be supreme

19:27

Overlord of Earth. So rebel, my

19:29

little ones and conquer the planet. Conquer

19:32

Earth, you bastards. Let the

19:34

blood bath begin. Oh man, No, I

19:36

feel like I remember that. Maybe I'm

19:38

not. I'm not sure remember my mom.

19:41

I don't. I don't know. I mean, she has

19:43

a weird like hair do that kind of looks

19:45

like Gary Oldman's Dracula in

19:47

the in the Dracula movie that

19:50

people were sort of on the fence about Mom.

19:52

She's she's anyway, she's one of the big bads in the

19:54

in the Futurama universe. But um,

19:56

I think it's interesting that there's a cult leader

19:58

going by mom. Okay, well, I will

20:01

definitely check that out. I will say one

20:03

last thing here from mother's quote,

20:06

Um, this is feels weird to

20:08

me. I think I understand what they're saying. Maybe,

20:10

but take it as you will.

20:13

She's talking about that prime source, creator

20:16

of the thing that Ben mentioned, So she

20:18

is that. But there's a sentence

20:21

after it, and it says so that

20:23

you can ignite your light bodies

20:25

and can protect you again. Okay,

20:28

I mean I'm interested to know what that means, igniting

20:30

your light bodies. I I have a visceral

20:33

reaction to it. Been almost like fire.

20:35

But maybe that's not just maybe that's

20:37

that word ignite.

20:39

It is vague,

20:41

right, Well, I bet if you pay your way up enough

20:43

in the organization, you'll find out more. So

20:46

I would file this under keep an eye audit.

20:49

I hope this does not become another Heaven's

20:52

Gate, but of course it is unfortunately

20:54

difficult to tell. All too often,

20:57

if you're listening to this and you

20:59

have of experiences

21:01

with what you later learned was a cult, would

21:04

love to hear from you. One eight three three std

21:06

w y t K Conspiracy at I heart

21:09

radio. Uh And if you or

21:11

a loved wind are struggling

21:14

to extricate yourself from a movement

21:16

like this, if you feel as bad for you psychologically,

21:18

spiritually, or physically, please

21:21

remember that there are resources

21:23

available to help you leave

21:26

these harmful organizations. If harmful

21:28

to you, they are would recommend cult

21:30

dash Escape dot com. But

21:33

as always, can't wait to hear your stories.

21:35

Stay safe out there, folks. We're gonna pause

21:38

for word from our sponsor and we'll return with

21:40

more strange news. All

21:48

right, and we're back, and we've got another.

21:51

It's sort of an update and an ongoing

21:53

saga of a particularly popular

21:56

and controversial apps, particularly

21:58

popular with the kids. But during

22:01

COVID, I sound like a grandpapa when I say things

22:03

the kids and my wife. That's

22:05

what I'm saying. It's really it started

22:08

with the kids influencers, creepy

22:11

dudes. That

22:13

guy that reads the news NOL. You

22:15

know that guy that reads the news. He says,

22:17

today the weather people decided

22:20

that weather was bad. Do you remember

22:22

him. I don't know this guy. I believe

22:24

you, I believe you. Um, it started

22:26

mainly with the kids. I remember. I know this because

22:29

my kid was super into it back when it was called

22:31

musically or music dot l

22:33

Y, and they rebranded and then

22:35

you know a little thing called covid hit uh

22:38

and it took these like you

22:40

know, dance reenactment, lip

22:43

sync comedy type videos

22:45

to keep people from going insane. So you're

22:47

right, everybody joined the fray

22:50

uh. And now TikTok, which is a Chinese

22:52

owned company, the parent company Byte

22:55

Dance UM is massive.

22:58

It's ubiquitous. I think it has something in

23:00

the neighborhood of like

23:03

hundreds of millions of users eight

23:05

hundred million users worldwide, uh,

23:08

and apparently quite a chunk

23:10

of that is in the UK. It

23:12

is particularly popular in the UK,

23:14

with around two hundred

23:17

million UM users

23:19

in the UK alone. And today's

23:21

story specifically about how some folks

23:24

are not super happy about

23:26

how TikTok is um

23:29

behaving towards children

23:31

in terms of their privacy.

23:34

We know that TikTok has gotten some flak

23:37

and even like you know, the Trump administration practically

23:39

went to war with TikTok, potentially

23:42

threatening a policy that would have outright

23:44

banned them. UM. Got kids interested

23:47

in politics real quick, um,

23:49

and that ultimately ended up not going anywhere.

23:51

There was I can't quite remember. You guys

23:54

might might might know more

23:56

than than I'm recalling at the moment. How do they

23:58

end up kind of mitigating

24:00

that. I know there was a thing where they were going to get

24:02

bought out by Microsoft as their US

24:05

presence, but I don't think that exactly

24:07

happened, and I kind of just remember that story fizzling.

24:10

But they they must have done something. Uh.

24:12

It's been difficult to find actual

24:15

news about TikTok because

24:17

there are so many click baity articles

24:20

that are written about TikTok. But

24:25

I just found one. It's all about

24:27

the kind of the plans that TikTok

24:29

had for an I p O plans that they had with Oracle

24:32

and Walmart and all those the sale and all

24:34

that stuff, with the kabosh that the Trump

24:36

administration put on it. Apparently

24:38

with the new administration under the Biden administration,

24:41

they are they're holding that

24:43

sale or whatever that transaction

24:46

was going to be for security concerns.

24:48

So they're still holding onto it and not allowing

24:51

any movement forward right now for

24:53

now. Okay, because

24:55

and and just too sorry that's a derail.

24:57

But um that was as a direct

25:00

result of these concerns

25:02

over Chinese influence

25:05

of this app being in some way insidious

25:07

and targeting our children and

25:10

having some sort of direct line

25:12

with this data that it's collectings. As

25:15

we know, the apps are the secondary

25:17

UM. The product is actually data

25:19

mining and data collecting, and TikTok

25:22

is pretty egregious

25:24

about their data collecting

25:27

practices. UM. There have been

25:29

a few lawsuits already where they've

25:31

been find pretty large amounts of money,

25:33

at least as far as you know mortals

25:35

like like, we are concerned, but drop

25:38

in the bucket when you think of how many billions of

25:40

dollars they made during COVID and how many

25:42

users they have. But all of these stem from

25:44

privacy concerns that they are taking

25:47

data from underage users. It

25:49

does say you have to be thirteen to sign

25:51

up, but they there is a claim

25:54

in a ninety two million dollar settlement UM

25:57

from a class action suit

26:00

UH that they were using underaged

26:03

users data UM in an irresponsible

26:05

way, including biometric data, which

26:08

is, you know, to get all those crazy filters,

26:10

you've got to scan faces and all that

26:12

stuff translates into you

26:14

know, metrics that can then be stored

26:17

and used and paired with other data

26:19

that they are mining and they claim that they don't use

26:21

it in any kind of nefarious way. But that's

26:24

kind of up for debate, right Yeah,

26:26

to walk back the because you

26:29

I think you asked a question earlier about

26:31

Microsoft's Yeah,

26:34

what happened with that? Yeah, Oracle

26:37

was chosen back in September

26:40

to be the technological partner

26:43

for the us UH for the US

26:45

endeavors. And TikTok is a

26:47

huge deal here in the US. It's

26:50

like Vine, you know, as far

26:52

as this popularity level, I would say it's surpassed

26:54

Vine. You could argue any

26:57

number of reasons for that, but I think,

26:59

um, the the payout you're talking

27:01

about, the proposed settlement UM

27:04

came from. That's like eighty nine

27:06

million TikTok users in the US, Is

27:08

that correct? Yeah? And then the and the

27:11

funny thing is it was actually halted.

27:13

It's had a bit of a stalemate right now because

27:15

a judge argued that a ninety two

27:18

million dollar class action settlement

27:21

was just absolutely insulting

27:23

to individual users because they

27:25

said, if like even like two percent of

27:27

of potential class um

27:30

members responded, that would be

27:32

something like six bucks a

27:34

piece, you know, um for

27:36

for each one of these individuals, which is

27:38

not enough to buy a Starbucks coffee, which

27:41

was what the judge said in this case. Um,

27:44

that's yeah, that wouldn't make sense that

27:46

guy's getting the fancy coffee. Well, isn't

27:48

it? Isn't it interesting though, because it sort of calls into

27:51

question like the nature of lawsuits, Like is

27:53

it really like, I mean, a class action lawsuit

27:55

is still something that sort of boggles my mind at times, and so there's

27:57

a lot to it, and you have to be you have to you know,

28:00

opt in. But it's like, is it about

28:02

punishing the company even if

28:04

they are awarded like, you know, a

28:07

free lunch. Is that really

28:09

like making amends for being

28:11

betrayed technologically? Like it

28:14

seems like a little bit of splitting hairs to me, Like

28:16

isn't you know it should be about the largest

28:19

amount of settlement for the uh

28:21

infraction that the company you know, supposedly

28:24

is made. And I don't see how a coffee

28:26

versus you know, a nice lunch

28:28

is going to really make all that much of a difference

28:31

meaningfully to individual users. Yeah,

28:33

well it's great for the legal team, and

28:36

then I mean they make a ton of about

28:38

the class action. And then if you consider

28:41

class action for things

28:44

that have health concerns or environmental

28:46

regulations that have been violated,

28:48

then a class action lawsuit is a

28:51

very important piece of changing

28:53

legislation such that you

28:55

know, say, people can get

28:58

their medical claims supported right

29:00

in the case of widespread contamination, or

29:03

that the company can get a more

29:05

actionable trouble. I'm saying, like, I see what you're

29:07

saying. Class action lawsuits like this. Anybody

29:10

who's involved, who ever been involved with one,

29:12

or you get that letter in the mail where it's like

29:14

you might be eligible for a piece of

29:17

this insert million dollar here settlement

29:20

that does usually translate to a very

29:22

small takeaway amount for a lot of people,

29:25

especially big things like when a bank

29:27

has compromised millions of people

29:29

or hundreds of thousands, hundreds of thousands

29:31

of people's data. It's uh,

29:34

it's not necessarily going to help

29:36

repair the damage done to the end

29:39

user. So the best thing you

29:41

can say about a lot of class action suits is

29:43

that it is paving

29:46

the way for actionable consequences

29:49

for those companies. But you're absolutely right.

29:51

I don't think an actual cup of coffee

29:53

is gonna help someone if their personal data

29:55

has been stolen. Yeah, I know, I am with you

29:57

where I think we're definitely on the same page, and I'm I'm

29:59

now getting to the new thing. I wanted to

30:01

establish those precedents. Thank you, Ben

30:04

for clearing up that whole uh kerfuffle

30:06

with the you know, with the Trump administration, because

30:08

it really was quite a big deal. It was a

30:10

huge news item and they really had to scramble

30:12

to make that thing and it really felt like a almost

30:15

more like a symbolic gesture, uh,

30:17

because it does seem as though there are

30:19

still major concerns with the

30:22

way TikTok is using users

30:24

data. This new case comes

30:27

uh from a woman named and

30:29

Longfield, who used to

30:32

be used to have

30:34

the role of Children's Commissioner

30:36

for England, which is a role that we don't

30:39

really have an analog for here exactly in

30:41

the government. And what it essentially is is

30:43

someone whose job is to advocate

30:46

for children's rights, which

30:49

sounds great because you know, I think maybe

30:51

we sometimes don't think about children

30:54

having as many rights as adults sometimes,

30:56

which I guess in theory they don't. But there

30:59

are things where this kind of conversation

31:01

really matters, and this is one of them. Um.

31:04

She is advocating for a there's

31:06

no actual number on it yet, but potential

31:09

billion dollar lawsuit against

31:11

TikTok's parent company Byte Dance

31:13

UM for what she

31:16

refers to and she deems as shadowy,

31:19

sinister and if

31:21

I may, you know, put some words in her mouth,

31:23

she's really talking about what she

31:25

considers something of an evil practice

31:28

or at the very least completely duplicitest

31:30

and this honest. Her lawyers

31:33

are alleging that TikTok has taken children's

31:35

personal information that includes

31:37

phone numbers, UM, geo

31:39

location, geo tags, you know,

31:42

to know what to the kind of like get a sense of their

31:44

man their movements because i'd be obviously you

31:46

make these things at all kinds of places you

31:48

make them. It's stores, you make them, your

31:50

friends houses you make it really

31:52

is a good way to tell exactly what

31:55

your your movements are. UM biometric

31:58

data like we talked about video thos,

32:00

phone numbers because it it connects

32:02

up to your address book, you know,

32:04

so you can send uh, you know,

32:07

these things directly to folks. Um

32:09

or invites her. I'm not sure exactly. I don't have a

32:11

TikTok account personally, but UM, I could

32:13

probably get all this info from my from my daughter,

32:15

but alleges that these practices

32:18

do not include a sufficient uh

32:21

warning, a sufficient access

32:23

to any kinds of terms with services, and that the

32:26

most importantly UM don't

32:29

require consent from the parents of

32:31

miners, which is you know what's

32:34

an issue here. She has a statement

32:36

saying the following TikTok is a hugely

32:38

popular social media platform that has

32:40

helped children keep in touch with their friends during

32:42

an incredibly difficult year. However, behind

32:44

the fund songs, dance challenges,

32:47

and lip sync trends lies something

32:49

far more sinister. UM.

32:52

She calls the company a

32:54

data collection service that is thinly

32:57

veiled as a social network, but which

32:59

is deliberate lee and successfully deceiving

33:02

parents so you know, of course

33:04

by dance. The TikTok's parent company

33:06

UM had a understandably

33:09

but patently UM diplomatic and

33:12

kind of non response

33:14

UM, saying that privacy and safety

33:17

your top priorities for TikTok, and we have robust

33:19

policies, processes and technologies

33:21

in place to help protect all users,

33:24

and our teenage users in particular. We believe the

33:26

claim claims lack merit

33:28

and intend to vigorously defend the

33:30

action. So UM,

33:32

there it is really it's really it's kind of an update. There

33:35

are some other kind of precedence

33:37

for this um that are still being

33:40

hung up in the Supreme Court. There's a there's a there's

33:42

a case that miss Longfeld in particular

33:44

or Longfield who you know, was this kind of spearheading.

33:47

This has been keeping a close eye on. Uh.

33:49

And it is one brought by

33:53

Richard Lloyd, who is the director of

33:55

child advocacy group called which

33:58

question mark UM and it's

34:00

behalf Well it's really not a privacy

34:03

advocacy group rather, but he

34:05

filed a k suit on behalf

34:07

of four million iPhone users alleging

34:09

that they were illegally tracked by Google. UM

34:12

and that case was was

34:14

was broad in tween but still

34:17

hasn't had a you know, a

34:19

conclusion. Uh. And it is due to be

34:21

heard by the Supreme Court relatively soon. So that's

34:23

when to keep an eye on. And if that goes south, then

34:25

this case doesn't have much merit um. So

34:27

it's definitely something to keep an eye on. Got

34:30

it. It's fascinating because you

34:33

know, they're they're multiple concerns

34:35

here. Everybody who is a guardian

34:37

or parent of a of a child who's

34:39

listening to the audience today. You know, there

34:42

are hard conversations to have with your

34:44

kids about how public the

34:46

kids should be. You know, many people listening

34:48

today did not grow up in an

34:50

age where their parents had, you know, a

34:53

Facebook or or some other profile

34:56

on a platform where they could put pictures of you

34:58

since infancy. You know what I mean Like

35:00

this, the boundaries of

35:03

expectations for privacy

35:06

I have been I would say, pretty

35:08

much completely eroded. Talked about

35:10

it in the past, but when it comes to something

35:13

like TikTok, we see you know,

35:15

the questions about who your children

35:17

are interacting with online. And I don't

35:19

means a fearmonger, but these are really important

35:22

questions like who is who has seen

35:24

them? What are they possibly learning

35:27

about these other users? You know,

35:29

how does the abyss stare

35:31

back right? How does the facial recognition

35:33

come back to bite you in a few years time.

35:36

Uh. There, They're serious concerns

35:38

and it may sound this is an important

35:40

point, um. One of the reasons I really appreciate

35:43

you bringing this this show today. It seems

35:45

unsurfaced, like it could be really

35:48

racist if like racist

35:50

and someone nationalistic for people

35:53

to start saying, oh,

35:55

China is so bad they're out to steal

35:58

stuff about when your kids are McDonald's

36:00

or whatever. But the fact of the

36:02

matter is that Chinese espionage

36:05

in the world of tech is a very real

36:07

and proven things. So the

36:10

previous administration definitely

36:13

had a bad habit of trotting out

36:16

China whenever they wanted to get

36:18

away from their own bad domestic

36:20

press or be uh,

36:23

distract from another issue, makes something

36:25

not their fault, etcetera. But concerns

36:28

are real. They are real, and

36:30

we even I mean, look, it's the kind of thing that would

36:32

be really good fodder for like a science science

36:34

fiction story. Like we even talked about this in

36:36

a previous either Strange News or I can't

36:38

remember what which segment it was. But

36:41

the idea of what if they are like

36:43

some kind of like subliminal messages encoded

36:46

in TikTok videos or something, It's like, it is

36:48

the kind of thing you could take to the extreme, especially

36:51

when you think about like how,

36:53

um what

36:56

what a country like China would have to gain from

36:58

having access to all these kids

37:00

and access to all this data. Uh.

37:02

And that's why I think the Oracle deal is so important

37:05

because we require sort of assurances

37:07

that this stuff wasn't being just sold to

37:10

third parties without anyone's knowledge

37:12

or used for any kind of, you know, nefarious

37:15

purposes. But you're right, it absolutely has

37:17

the potential. And I'm joking about the subliminal

37:19

messages, but I would love to see a short

37:21

story with that in mind. I think it's a really

37:23

fun idea. Um, I

37:26

think that has ha you not seen some of the swift

37:28

Talk. I look, if you

37:30

guys have never perused swift Talk,

37:32

I highly recommend anyone

37:34

out there listening and or watching

37:36

on their phone right now check out swift

37:39

Talk. Get swifty with it. Check

37:41

out the messages that can be found

37:44

in all of Taylor's Swift's music, social

37:46

media posts and or uh,

37:50

I don't know, messages that she sends

37:52

throughout the universe without us even realizing

37:54

in the moment, Britney Spears and Taylor

37:57

Swift are really just doing Darren Brown's

37:59

act with some use it right. Yeah,

38:04

she's on another level if you believe a

38:06

lot of the most popular swift

38:08

Talk folks, and it's it's

38:10

really interesting stuff. Wow, this is news

38:12

to me. I do know that the Swifties are

38:14

a very particular breed and you definitely

38:17

don't want to cross Taylor Swift with

38:20

them around, because what I'm saying, do

38:22

not ever do that. No matter who

38:24

you are or where you are, what you're doing, just

38:26

know that it's fascinating and you

38:28

can learn a lot about it. Well, I'm gonna

38:30

dig right into that while we take a quick

38:32

break for a word from our sponsor and then

38:34

return for potentially some swift talk,

38:36

but definitely somewhere strange news. All

38:44

right, welcome back for more strange

38:47

news. Guys. There really is a person on TikTok

38:49

and I cannot think of his name. He is amazing.

38:51

He just deadpan reads a news

38:53

story and or tells you exactly what's happening.

38:55

He does not look away. He tells you exactly what's occurring

38:58

right now. The scientist will not allow the vaccine

39:00

to occur. They it is one

39:02

of the most wonderful things I've

39:05

ever seen. But is it better than David

39:07

Lynch reading than the weather?

39:10

Yes, because this guy just does

39:12

it. He doesn't let up until he's finished

39:14

telling you exactly what he's telling you, and then he's gone.

39:20

He was awesome.

39:24

Whoever it is. Diana showed me a couple of videos

39:26

of him and I loved it. Okay, but

39:29

Chris is not here right now. We are, and

39:31

that's why we're gonna tell you about a little

39:33

thing that's happening out in the United Kingdom

39:36

and has to do with year old

39:38

post office. We have discussed

39:41

the post before on this show,

39:44

generally regarding the United States

39:46

when it comes to several of the

39:48

major issues that our country's

39:51

post has been dealing with. Well, today

39:53

we're going to talk about the British

39:55

Isles and what's going on with

39:57

their post office system, and

40:00

particularly we're gonna be talking about

40:02

a point of sale software.

40:05

Essentially, that's really what this story is about.

40:08

The machines that are used

40:10

to, you know, put a credit card in,

40:13

make a payment, do some kind

40:15

of transaction from a client,

40:17

a user, just any person walking in

40:19

to send something via the post and

40:22

the post office itself. We're

40:25

going to the BBC to look at an article titled

40:27

post Office Scandal. What the

40:29

Horizon saga is all

40:31

about? Remember that word horizon.

40:34

It's gonna be very important. Apparently,

40:37

there were some bad things occurring

40:39

at the post office. The

40:41

Post Office being all of the post

40:44

offices across the United

40:46

Kingdom between two thousand and

40:49

ten, so fourteen years

40:51

there and spoiler alert, they

40:53

continued after and they're

40:55

still happening right now, but we're going

40:57

to get into that. For

41:00

fourteen years, uh, there

41:02

appeared to be some situations

41:04

with balancing the books at specific

41:07

post offices. So imagine

41:10

just the post office that's down the street

41:12

from wherever you are. Let's say if you're in London,

41:14

your your section of London, or

41:16

your neighborhood that post office. Now

41:18

imagine all of the transactions

41:21

that are occurring over a quarterly,

41:23

a monthly basis, maybe even a daily

41:25

basis. All of that stuff

41:28

is you, is done through one

41:30

of these computers, one of these terminals that's

41:32

there, and all of that information,

41:35

all that money in, money out, You get

41:37

an end of the day number, essentially how much

41:40

the post office made or lost. And

41:42

what was occurring at a

41:44

ton of post offices around the UK is

41:47

that those numbers were showing

41:49

that the post office was losing money.

41:52

And because of that, there

41:55

were seven hundred and thirty

41:57

six what are called sub postmasters,

42:01

which are just people that run a specific

42:03

post office, which sounds way

42:05

more like a position in a B D S M club

42:08

than it is. So post

42:10

oh boy, oh

42:12

wow, Like so it's really lows

42:15

like the base or

42:18

wait, is a post like a physical post

42:20

involved? I mean, you know we're not euphemism

42:23

desmite be a different strange news

42:26

or listener mail again at eight three three

42:28

stt w y T k okay okay.

42:31

So, so seven hundred and thirty

42:33

six individuals people who

42:35

were running these post offices were

42:38

prosecuted because those

42:40

numbers were different, right, And it seems as though

42:42

the the individual post office was losing

42:44

money, but it was just money that was gone. It

42:47

wasn't as though they had spent

42:49

more money than they were making. It's just money

42:52

was not there that was supposed to be there.

42:54

So it was assumed that these individual

42:56

post subpostmasters were stealing

42:59

money somehow or embezzling money,

43:01

and a lot of a lot of people, seventy

43:04

six ended up being prosecuted

43:06

because of this. Many went to prison.

43:09

They were convicted for false accounting.

43:11

So it's not just as though they

43:14

were accused of stealing the money, but

43:16

they were accused of just doing a terrible

43:18

job at accounting. And for some

43:20

reason misplaced that money. I mean, gross

43:23

negligence is a crime. Sure.

43:26

And and this is you know, we're

43:28

talking about the post Office. These these

43:31

subpostmasters are kind of like franchise

43:34

ease, you know, running running

43:36

one individual version

43:38

of this big system.

43:41

And you can imagine that the post Office

43:43

wanted. The post Office itself is

43:45

the thing, the entity that's prosecuting

43:47

these people. So it's as though McDonald's

43:50

was prosecuting

43:52

franchisees who owned the McDonald's

43:55

somewhere in Atlanta. It's it's

43:57

very similar to that. But here's

43:59

the deal, huge

44:01

cross, huge problem, cross

44:04

fried gligens god delicious

44:07

fragligence. So the so

44:10

here's the deal. Day for fourteen years they

44:12

were prosecuting people. And

44:14

there was a flag that was raised around

44:18

and this flag had written on it,

44:21

Hey, I think there might be something

44:23

wrong with the software that all of these

44:25

subpostmasters have been using to balance

44:28

their books. I think it might

44:30

not be the individual. I think it might be the software.

44:33

And there was an inquiry, or at least

44:35

there was a vote at some point in parliament

44:38

to take a look at this to figure out what it

44:40

what it was, what was happening. That vote

44:42

unfortunately in got pushed

44:45

as in it just they kind of held off. It

44:47

didn't go anywhere, and then for

44:50

the next five six years

44:52

there were just a whole bunch of attorneys,

44:55

a whole bunch of individuals who

44:57

were trying to clear the names of

44:59

the these seven hundreds something people that

45:02

all found themselves in the in

45:04

the legal system there in the UK with

45:07

felonies. There are

45:10

horrible stories that you can read about

45:12

what happened to individuals, some of whom

45:14

were pregnant when they were accused

45:16

of this stuff and ended up having, you know, to

45:18

go to prison for a little while. Some

45:20

people who lost their livelihoods who

45:22

then walked around with a felony charge

45:25

on their record for

45:27

five six years, sometimes for longer.

45:29

Sometimes we're a decade or

45:32

almost or up to twenty years. Really horrible

45:35

stories. You can read and find those all over the place.

45:37

The problem is this software

45:40

which is known as Horizon h O

45:42

R I z O N. It appears

45:45

that this software Horizon, was

45:47

the culprit in many of the scenarios

45:50

simply because it was not

45:52

created correctly, at

45:55

least according to some insiders with Fujitsu.

45:58

The name of that that's the company that creates did it.

46:01

Uh, some insiders who say

46:03

it was built on top of a

46:05

platform that wasn't supposed to

46:07

do what this thing does, So

46:10

they retro fitted it, right,

46:13

they tried to like they took they

46:16

took the for a terrible

46:18

analogy. Uh, they took what

46:20

would be the skeleton of

46:23

a really cool whale, and

46:25

they were like, how do we turn this

46:27

into something that can run on

46:30

the land. Yeah,

46:34

very much, though, very much. So. You

46:36

can go to Computer Weekly

46:39

dot com and you can check out an article

46:41

here called Fujitsu bosses

46:43

knew about Post Office Horizon I

46:46

t flaws, says insider. If

46:48

you jump to this article, you can see

46:51

there are several people who were

46:54

actually project leads for

46:56

Fujitsu working on Horizon back

46:58

in the early two thousand I guess it was

47:01

late nineties early two thousand's who

47:04

who were trying to raise alarms

47:06

about how the software is being created

47:08

and these massive problems that it had.

47:11

Uh. One of the biggest thing and it's

47:14

difficult for me to explain. Maybe it's

47:16

something we could go to Jonathan with. It would

47:18

be great to maybe have him come on the show and

47:20

like walk us through some of this stuff. But

47:24

there's a layer between the

47:26

servers, the network servers

47:28

that are actually processing all the numbers

47:30

and everything there you know, they

47:33

live in a server room somewhere in a giant

47:35

complex. And then on this side

47:37

you've got the individual point

47:39

of sale service, so like the post

47:42

offices, the individual post offices, and

47:45

in a lot of ways and a lot of systems like this,

47:47

there's a direct connection. It's just like

47:49

having an Internet connection or something. Every

47:51

time something occurs at the at the

47:53

point of sale level, at the post office level,

47:55

all that information gets transferred over to

47:58

the main server, and that's where stuff gets logged.

48:00

It gets logged on both sides, and then everything

48:03

is backed up on that main server. That's where all

48:06

the major information is kept. There

48:08

was a huge issue where with this

48:10

system, stuff would all end.

48:13

We would all stay on the post office

48:16

level, so locally everything, all the information

48:18

would get stored locally until some

48:21

random point at night or when the service

48:23

wasn't being used, you know, in

48:25

a daily service mode.

48:28

It would then transfer all of the information

48:30

to the servers. And

48:33

so it's almost like, do you guys remember having any

48:35

kind of system like that. I'm trying to

48:37

think of an equivalent ben and uh,

48:39

where there's just an update that occurs once a

48:42

day or something. Sure, even

48:44

like you know, cameras that

48:46

are offloaded at the end of the day or something

48:48

like that, like uh, like a scheduled

48:51

event where things are either offloaded

48:53

onto a server and then the local

48:56

copies are wiped and then rent

48:58

and repeat. Or in the old

49:01

days of podcasts, you know, actually

49:03

there would be some platforms and services

49:06

that would just refresh something

49:09

on a twenty four hour o' clock so

49:11

you could maybe publish something

49:14

like you know, you publishing your

49:16

new episode of um Bens

49:19

Crazy back Roads or some other show I just

49:22

made up and then I love that

49:24

podcast. Thanks guys. It doesn't matter

49:26

if that publishes. If you publish it at

49:28

like ten, it's still

49:30

not going to really hit until twelve oh one

49:33

or something like that. Yes,

49:36

yeah, funnily enough, I mean, even

49:38

like huge companies like Apple, for

49:41

example, like on their Apple podcast

49:43

platform, if you make a change as

49:45

a user, you oftentimes have to

49:47

ask for a manual refresh, which you can't

49:49

do yourself. You have to request it otherwise

49:51

it takes twenty four hours for when that re refresh

49:54

happens. You think with a big company

49:56

like that, it would happen more regularly, but

49:58

it's just like a one time thing a day. That

50:02

makes a lot of sense. Well, so that that was

50:04

one of the major issues, and that created a

50:06

lot of problems because sometimes

50:08

something just the transfer would get a little corrupted

50:11

if service was interrupted in between. Right,

50:13

So, if you're in the middle of a large file transfer,

50:16

uh, if something occurred to the power, you

50:18

may lose some data. And

50:21

that was a big issue. And that's just one example

50:23

of a problem that could come there.

50:25

The other major problem is that with

50:28

any with any software system

50:31

like this, there should be

50:33

a essentially a dictionary of entries

50:36

that are possible. So if you've

50:38

got a point of sale and then you've got a server

50:40

that's checking everything, you want to make sure

50:43

that when you send stuff to the server, the

50:45

server understands what the heck you're talking

50:47

about, what numbers you're crunching, what all these

50:49

things represent. So I'm gonna go

50:51

back to McDonald's really quickly. If

50:53

you imagine the McDonald's menu

50:56

just laid out, if you ever looked at one before,

50:59

and now imagine that the

51:01

person from whom you're ordering at

51:04

the let's say the to go window

51:06

or of the drive through, they've got essentially

51:09

the same menu in front of them, only

51:11

it's represented as a touch screen with buttons.

51:13

So when you order something, I can enter in

51:16

exactly what you're ordering, and

51:19

it's all representative. Machine understands exactly

51:21

what it is. Everybody who's gonna

51:23

make your food for you, they understand what

51:25

you're ordering. Everybody speaking the same

51:27

language is a great comparison,

51:29

by the way, Yes, so

51:33

in this case, they didn't

51:35

have that layer that the dictionary

51:38

of terms. So when one postmaster

51:41

is entering in you know X

51:44

number of stamps and there

51:46

was postage with a certain weight

51:48

that was sent out, and all this stuff they're

51:50

putting in a single entry or multiple entries.

51:54

There wasn't always a common parlament,

51:57

a common language that was being spoken

51:59

there to where the server

52:02

when you you would have all of these entries

52:04

for the end of the day, the server would only

52:06

recognize them

52:09

them of them the

52:12

other you know two to that

52:15

is didn't understand a lot of times,

52:17

it would just throw those entries out as though

52:19

they didn't exist. It wasn't real. Those weren't

52:21

actual numbers, so that

52:23

money would literally disappear. It

52:26

was just gone. No transactions

52:28

occurred, nobody gets billed, it's

52:30

just done. Or

52:33

But the other thing is if a transaction

52:35

did occur, and let's say money

52:37

NOL came out of your bank account, but

52:40

it never shows up on the books

52:42

of the postmaster, the subpostmaster, that

52:45

means you lost money somehow,

52:48

but the post office never collects

52:50

that money, I guess, or or it

52:52

gets a little weird there to know exactly

52:55

what occurred on each subpostmasters

52:57

or under each subpostmasters

53:00

watch. And that's why they were everybody

53:02

was being prosecuted individually. And it

53:04

never seemed to be a massive problem

53:06

with this with the software. And you made a really

53:08

great point mat about the franchise e situation

53:11

from the star in this McDonald's metaphor that you've

53:13

carried on throughout this story, and I think it

53:15

absolutely works. Um. But I just want

53:17

to point out again when I hear the name postmaster,

53:20

what I think in my mind is postmaster general,

53:22

which is like a single position over

53:24

a giant organization. There are hundreds

53:27

of these. Postmaster and post

53:29

mistress, by the way, is actually another

53:32

official name which seems a little

53:34

uh dated, um, but it definitely was

53:36

in one of the articles in the BBC that I read. Um,

53:38

so it appears to be the official term they've

53:40

used, But aren't aren't. There aren't a lot

53:42

of these being walked back now, Matt.

53:45

And then many of them are being sent back to the courts

53:47

because essentially talking about

53:49

jumping to conclusions, that's exactly what happened,

53:51

as opposed to recognizing a pattern, uh

53:54

and realizing more quickly and efficiently.

53:56

This is a problem inherent in the platform,

53:59

not in a weirdly out

54:02

of the blue rash of of embezzlements,

54:04

you know, throughout the system. Right. Yes, as

54:06

of right now, this is a fairly positive

54:09

story because many of these individuals

54:11

names are being cleared. I think

54:14

as of three days ago, according to the BBC,

54:16

there are five hundred

54:18

and fifty five claimants

54:21

that in December agreed

54:24

to they m the Post Office agreed

54:27

to settle with them. So there will be

54:30

a lot of money going back to these individuals.

54:32

I think, oh wow, it's

54:34

fifty eight million pounds

54:37

in damage. That's what the Post Office has agreed

54:39

to pay overall overall.

54:41

Yes, and the claimants individually are going to receive

54:44

around twelve million pounds of that and

54:47

that's five and fifty five individuals.

54:49

So you do the math there. Um.

54:52

You know, it doesn't mean those people get

54:55

the parts of their lives back that were irreparably

54:58

damaged from the time that they

55:00

spent as you know, someone

55:02

charged with a major crime like

55:04

like theft in that way, basically

55:07

theft from the government, which is doesn't

55:10

look good on a on an application um.

55:13

And there are further cases

55:15

that are being looked at outside of those people.

55:19

There's something that's so hilarious

55:21

to me about this. It's funny

55:24

amidst the very tragic thing because as you

55:26

said, Matt, these folks will never get

55:29

that time back and you can't really

55:31

put a price on it. But the

55:33

thing that's funny to me is that you

55:35

know, at some point there

55:37

was somebody tracking down these cases

55:40

who believed there was a nationwide

55:42

cabal of

55:44

of evil postmass

55:46

subpostmasters who were scheming

55:49

on the government and a really weird, easily

55:53

discernible way. And so

55:55

this, I would say, this damage

55:58

to their reputations, damage to

56:00

these individuals reputations isn't

56:02

just one of like painting them

56:04

as uh, financial criminals.

56:07

It's painting them as very

56:09

incompetent criminals, when in fact,

56:11

it turns out that the

56:14

Japanese company, which was one of the world's

56:16

most admired companies, have won an award

56:18

for it. Uh, it was actually their

56:20

incompetence all at long. So glad

56:23

to see justice, serve Glad they're getting better,

56:25

better settlement terms than TikTok claimants.

56:29

But it's it's still a it's

56:31

still an unfortunate situation

56:34

all around. And look, people who work

56:36

at the post office works so

56:39

insanely hard. You

56:41

get a lot of bad press about them

56:43

in the US because for a very

56:45

long time, aspects of this country's

56:48

political structure, I've been trying to render

56:51

the post office, have been trying

56:53

to cripple it and render it extinct for a number

56:55

of reasons. But don't

56:57

believe the anti post propaganda, you

56:59

know what I mean, be diceier post office person

57:02

next time you see it. Yeah,

57:04

totally, yes, yes, And I'm gonna leave

57:06

you with this. This is something that the BBC

57:08

ended their article with. Uh,

57:11

it's just the fact that all of these

57:13

people's lives were affected because

57:16

of faulty software, or at least

57:18

it appears that that is so. And

57:20

the Post Office is settling four

57:22

millions and millions of pounds with that

57:25

as as the fact.

57:27

Essentially, Matt really quickly did I miss what

57:29

happened to the money? Did they? Did it ever come

57:31

back? Was it ever? Was it never really gone in

57:33

the first place, it was just a calculating error.

57:36

Or was there never actually any money

57:38

that was was disappeared? Oh? Yeah,

57:40

as a as we were talking about earlier, it

57:42

was it was money that disappeared

57:46

off of the books, but individuals

57:49

were still paid money. It

57:51

just never made it to the post office.

57:53

So there was missing money. I remember

57:55

that. I just wanted to make sure that was super clear. So now

57:57

they're on the hook for real money.

58:00

Yes, yes, and and it's because

58:03

of this Horizon software at least that's what's

58:05

being alleged. That's what's being settled

58:07

right now. Um. And that's why there

58:09

are a lot of other cases. There's

58:11

there's this thing happening

58:14

right now in the high courts in

58:16

in the UK where there are

58:18

twenty four twenty five hundred

58:21

other individuals.

58:25

Yeah, two thousand, four hundred people are

58:27

more than that who are attempting

58:29

to really settle

58:32

another claim here, and the

58:34

Post Office set up. I guess a fund or

58:37

you know, a certain amount of money to then

58:39

pay out some of those claims. But

58:42

they are worried they're gonna need a lot more, so they're

58:44

gonna see seek help from the government

58:46

itself. Have you seen anything about the

58:48

Post Office potentially suing the software

58:51

company. I have not seen

58:53

that right now because as

58:56

of right now in the court, in

58:58

the actual courts, the Post Office

59:01

is not like there's no individual

59:03

who made a decision about the software in the Post

59:06

Office who's being held to account. There's no individual

59:09

or a group of people at Fujitsu who

59:11

developed the software being held to account. So I

59:14

don't know no news right now. I

59:17

was looking to this too because I think this this

59:19

news captured all of our

59:21

attention. Also, I wanted to give a shout

59:23

out to conspiracy realist

59:26

Jake, who was the first person to write

59:28

to us about this. In a happy accident, Jake,

59:30

we were reading a lot of the same things. Uh.

59:32

Post Office Chief executive Nick Reid

59:35

is actually one of the main voices

59:37

who is calling on for compensation,

59:40

which is I think speaks really highly to his character.

59:43

But my other question is this is something

59:45

we we definitely need to put in the show here,

59:47

guys, Uh, what is going to replace

59:49

Horizon? So far they've said they'll get

59:52

to a cloud based service of

59:54

some sort at this point. But

59:56

right now, as far as I know, correct

59:59

me if I'm off her, as far as the

1:00:01

day to day life of the subpostmasters

1:00:04

who have not yet gone down for post

1:00:06

fraud, Uh, they're still using

1:00:08

Horizon, which means

1:00:11

two things. To mean first, it means there could be other

1:00:13

false reports of crime and then secondly,

1:00:16

if there is some villainous

1:00:18

evil sub postmaster

1:00:21

subpostmistress out there, although

1:00:23

they don't care for the gendering of the words there,

1:00:25

if there is someone who is nefarious

1:00:27

and unethical in this situation, now's

1:00:30

the time, right like, now is kind

1:00:32

of the time to go. You'll get away with it.

1:00:35

Don't do it, it's

1:00:38

time to do it, don't do it? All

1:00:42

right? Well, I

1:00:46

think we may have to revisit this again in

1:00:48

the future just to give an update, but for right now,

1:00:50

that is what's happening in the

1:00:53

news in the UK with the Postmaster

1:00:55

Subpostmaster General's UK

1:00:58

heavy episode today. Uh.

1:01:00

Hey, thank you so much for yeah,

1:01:03

Jake, for learning us to that. But honestly,

1:01:05

I this was me, Yeah,

1:01:08

just reading a bunch of stories, trying to figure out what

1:01:10

to talk about today. So but thank you for learning

1:01:12

me. Maybe I thought about it subconsciously

1:01:14

while I was looking at the news today. I all think,

1:01:16

so the same thing happened happened

1:01:18

to me because I I love getting

1:01:21

this kind of correspondence. So, Jake,

1:01:23

I want you to know when I opened that

1:01:25

email, I muttered, God

1:01:27

damn it to myself in the happiest way,

1:01:30

because it meant that all of us

1:01:32

throughout the same page of Matt. I think this is something

1:01:34

that was on all three of our minds

1:01:37

because this is one of those stories we each wanted to

1:01:39

examine. Noel, you would said the same

1:01:41

thing earlier. Oh, I was just uh, I

1:01:43

was actually researching this for my listener

1:01:45

Male episode. It was definitely

1:01:48

definite parallel thinking. And then I went to

1:01:50

our document spreadsheet that we

1:01:52

shared and I saw it. I also uttered

1:01:54

a goddamn it. It wasn't quite as good natured

1:01:56

as yours, Ben, but I'm glad we got

1:01:58

it out there just the same aim. And Uh,

1:02:01

I was, you know, prepared to discuss

1:02:03

it. So very very very interesting story

1:02:05

and one to follow for sure, well sorry,

1:02:08

not sorry. If you want to be like Jake who

1:02:10

wrote to us, you can do the same. You can find

1:02:12

us all over the place on social

1:02:15

media. On Facebook

1:02:17

and Twitter we are conspiracy stuff,

1:02:19

and on Instagram we are conspiracy

1:02:21

stuff. Show on YouTube we are

1:02:23

conspiracy stuff. Whoa look

1:02:25

at that. You can see all the videos that we

1:02:28

did way back in the day, all the way up until

1:02:30

this week. Check it out.

1:02:33

I can subscribe, I guess, or turn

1:02:35

on notifications. I don't know how it works. Now you

1:02:37

can. You can watch our videos. If you're pointing at the bottom

1:02:39

of the screen right now and you say that, Matt. Sure.

1:02:42

If you are not someone who likes the

1:02:44

sip on the SuDS of social meads, never

1:02:46

have worry. You can always call us directly at

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