0:00

From UFOs to psychic powers

0:02

and government conspiracies. History

0:04

is riddled with unexplained events. You

0:07

can turn back now or learn

0:09

the stuff they don't want you to know. A

0:12

production of I Heart Radio. Hello,

0:25

welcome back to the show. My

0:27

name is Matt, my name is Nol.

0:29

They call me Ben. We are joined as

0:32

always with our super producer Paul

0:34

Mission Control decond. Most

0:36

importantly, you are you, You are

0:38

here, and that makes this stuff

0:41

they don't want you to know. And

0:45

today candidly we are yet

0:47

again on the edge of the

0:50

real but not

0:52

not perhaps in a way we have been in the past.

0:54

In our show, we've often swam into

0:57

the deep philosophical waters contemplated

1:00

the nature of perception and

1:02

reality. It's a dilemma that

1:04

only grows more important as

1:06

time goes on. If you're

1:09

like most people on the planet,

1:11

you are already familiar with today's

1:13

topic, reality television.

1:17

Before we begin, we need to

1:19

put a disclaimer at the top. Matt,

1:22

Noel, Michion Control, and myself

1:25

have all had some personal

1:27

experience with reality television,

1:30

so we are entering today's exploration

1:32

with a bit of unavoidable

1:35

bias. As always, we're going

1:37

to do our best to stay as objective

1:39

as possible, but in the interest

1:41

of transparency, we would like to

1:43

give you a few war stories from

1:45

our at times surreal experiences

1:49

with this phenomenon. It's sometimes

1:51

called a genre, sometimes it's called

1:53

a travesty, and sometimes it's called

1:55

an art form. So all fair,

1:58

You know, we we hang out. We

2:01

hang out when this show is not rolling or

2:03

we're not recording uh an off air. Over

2:05

the years, I think we've all shared some of

2:07

these stories with each other, but as

2:10

we were gearing up for this episode, we

2:12

were reminded of them again.

2:15

So Noel Matt Michigan

2:18

troll with. I mean, we've all got we've all got

2:20

some weird ones here. What

2:22

uh what? What are what are our personal

2:24

experiences with reality

2:27

TV? Well? Unknownst to you

2:29

guys or anybody else. Um, I am actually

2:32

the uh the sort

2:34

of abandoned Kardashian uh

2:37

son. I am the black sheep

2:39

of the Kardashian family. No one talks about

2:41

me. I had to change my name. Yeah,

2:45

this isn't exclusive. No, I'm obviously

2:47

I'm obviously kidding. I would probably be assassinated

2:49

if that were the truth, and I dropped that on the show. And

2:52

it's funny you say you mentioned this. Ben

2:54

Um, Paul and I actually,

2:57

in a previous life, pre

2:59

podcast, pre pandemic, work

3:01

together on a pilot for a reality

3:04

show. Um, I don't think actually dropped the name

3:06

because I don't know if it's still of a

3:08

working affair potentially being pitched.

3:10

It was a long time ago, and I haven't seen the show come

3:12

into exact No, you know what, I gotta do it. I gotta

3:14

because that the title was so great. It was called

3:17

the Underground Runway,

3:19

which I felt was problematic for

3:21

several reasons because the

3:24

implication makes you think of the underground

3:26

railroad obviously, which

3:28

is not connected to frivolous

3:30

fashion concerns and kind

3:33

of Real Housewives esque drama,

3:35

which is what this show very much was. It was these

3:38

women, buckhead type Atlanta

3:40

women, um, starting

3:42

a fashion brand in like a

3:44

basement room of this very

3:47

affluent Buckhead esque

3:49

let's say Buckhead like people know that as Buckheat is sort

3:52

of like the boogie brunch part

3:54

of Atlanta, and um, they

3:56

manufactured a whole lot of drama. There

3:58

was one part where like they had a

4:00

package sent to the house for

4:03

this one particularly boisterous

4:05

European woman. Um was

4:08

sent like a like a

4:10

box of sex toys, I want to say,

4:12

and her boyfriend kept sending these

4:15

inappropriate gifts to the house and disrupting

4:17

the flow of their you know, startup

4:20

brainstorming sessions. And it was

4:22

all totally manufactured. And even in like

4:24

the stand ups, that was the part that I was the most,

4:26

uh kind of intrigued by.

4:29

They're all frank in bited, which is a term

4:31

maybe people in the media don't know, but it's where you

4:33

just take words and cut them up and put

4:35

them in order to make it sound like somebody says something they

4:37

didn't say. Um, And the

4:39

director is literally they're feeding them, telling

4:42

them what to say, to push the drama

4:44

and make it as like salacious as

4:46

possible. And it's

4:48

it was a hoot. I was only doing it for one day,

4:51

but I talked taught me everything I used to know about the

4:53

world of reality television. That's

4:55

amazing. Wow,

4:58

I didn't have anything like that happened. I

5:01

was a part of a cooking show pilot one

5:03

time, but and I guess a cooking show in a

5:05

way is unscripted. There's probably an outline

5:07

there was at least in the version that we attempted.

5:11

But it was just trying to

5:13

get as much coverage as you possibly could

5:15

with as many cameras as you could, and

5:17

then the whole thing, the

5:19

whole story, and everything happens later. Basically

5:22

that was my experience. Um,

5:24

that particular one involved

5:27

the Dungeon family from Atlanta, and it

5:29

never saw the light of day, sadly yet.

5:32

Yeah. Yeah, they were probably

5:34

just intimidated by having you,

5:36

you know, by having you on set with them, you

5:38

know. Oh, I'm sure it was all Yeah, I'm

5:41

sure. And Casey and Tyler and Chandler.

5:44

Yes, yeah, that's right. I forgot those guys were

5:46

involved as well. Uh. Yes, so,

5:48

Matt, you and I have had

5:51

a very strange

5:53

experience. We flew to l A

5:55

years years and years ago to make

5:59

a pilot, uh, make

6:01

a pilot sizzle reel, which is a very

6:03

common thing with production companies.

6:05

They'll they'll make, almost

6:08

on spec, ah, a

6:12

fake trailer for a show that doesn't

6:14

yet exist. They'll show the trailer to a network

6:16

and say, wouldn't this be cool if

6:18

this was a trailer for a real show? Uh?

6:21

And our experience there

6:24

was I

6:26

had a fun time but I

6:28

think they were irritated with

6:30

us because, um

6:32

we yeah,

6:35

we flat out refused to play ball.

6:38

Uh. They we can

6:40

talk about this now without naming too

6:42

many specifics.

6:44

So so we get

6:47

contacted. I

6:49

think I get contact as an individual.

6:52

We get contacted as a show, uh,

6:55

on a on a not infrequent basis,

6:58

with people who want to pitch us ideas

7:00

for things. And we

7:02

were asked to work on a

7:06

essentially treasure hunting show, an investigative

7:08

treasure hunting docuseries kind of

7:11

thing. Uh. They found out that I

7:13

am a melungeon, and that's

7:15

a a very small, tri racial

7:18

isolate population it's called

7:20

here in the US. And they

7:23

wanted us to act

7:25

as if, uh, some

7:28

things that were legends were

7:30

absolutely true and then they

7:33

were absolutely true and we're going to find

7:35

them, yeah, exactly.

7:37

And so they wanted us to pretend

7:40

some things were true that Matt and I knew

7:42

not to be true. They did want us

7:44

to, you know, frank and bite or get some takes,

7:46

and they were very nice people. Um, but I

7:49

think they were a little irritated with us when

7:52

both Matt and I separately and together would

7:54

just put our foot down saying I

7:56

won't say that because it is

7:58

it is untrue, and it's this leading And

8:01

then in a different life before hold

8:04

on, do you remember

8:07

being out in the dry

8:10

uh, just hills somewhere

8:13

out there. I forget exactly where it

8:15

was, some somewhere out there in near l

8:17

A, with shovels

8:20

and other like old tools

8:23

that they made us carry and walk around for

8:25

a long time while they shot video of

8:27

it. Yeah, they're a wildfire

8:29

country. Yes, didn't they try to make you wear

8:31

like a Indiana Jones ask explorer

8:34

like adventurer outfits or something that I make

8:36

that part up or I seem to remember that from my

8:38

wish No, okay, I made that up. In then,

8:40

well, I have some stuff

8:43

from what I was living in in uh

8:45

More on the road situations

8:47

that I wore there. It was it was just yeah, it

8:49

was just very strange and it was not us.

8:52

Yeah, it wasn't really us. And uh And

8:55

then previously before

8:59

falling into this pecasting thing, I

9:01

have been cast in several

9:04

things, many of which didn't come to fruition

9:06

because you know, in the world of television, of

9:10

the stuff that gets pitched, nothing ever

9:12

comes of it. Uh. And so we

9:15

we have all had a

9:17

little bit of experience

9:20

in this world on the production end, on the possible

9:22

hosting or quote unquote talent end.

9:26

But as you can tell from the

9:28

stories you've heard from the three of us just

9:30

now, there is more

9:32

true reality TV than what you see

9:35

on the screen, And the experience

9:37

people have during production is

9:40

very different from the experience

9:42

you, as a viewer have when you see

9:44

the end result. So today's

9:46

question is what is

9:49

the reality behind reality

9:51

television? Here are the

9:53

facts. When you think about reality

9:56

TV, it sounds a bit strange, and

9:58

I remember it feeling strange. It was first

10:00

really spoke about in that way

10:02

because it's technically a genre of

10:05

television. UM

10:07

a lot of times it's known as unscripted

10:11

or non scripted television.

10:13

It's usually starring relatively

10:16

unknown people or at least non actors,

10:19

right, That's I think that's probably the most important

10:21

thing. They're non professional actors, where

10:24

sometimes they are professional actors. They're

10:26

just posing as a regular old person,

10:29

uh, not an actor. You'll see that

10:31

a lot. Well maybe we'll talk about

10:33

it later, but you see that a lot. In competition shows.

10:35

You get working or actors who need

10:38

work who go on them at

10:42

portmanteau for this one. Uh

10:45

mactors model slash

10:48

actors. Oh wow, that's

10:50

great. Oh yeah, and you can totally

10:52

see that on a lot of reality television,

10:54

people who look entirely just

10:56

too perfect to be running

10:58

around and doing whatever whack thing that

11:01

the show is about. But

11:04

but the the whole point is you you

11:06

don't have a script. You put these non actors

11:08

into basically

11:10

real life situations or larger

11:13

than real life situations,

11:16

and there's nothing to do, really besides

11:18

shoot a bunch of video of

11:20

these people doing the stuff, whatever

11:23

it is, and then you'll know. This

11:26

is where you get to see a lot

11:28

of setups because there's always a

11:30

little bit of exposition right to explain

11:33

them the rules

11:35

of this particular take on reality.

11:38

My favorites are always the the

11:40

house hunter sub genres, where

11:42

there's a couple that's like, uh,

11:46

you know Bill, Bill

11:48

collects vintage

11:50

condoms and Julie

11:53

is a spiritual guide

11:55

for Corgis. They want

11:58

a house with four Jacuzzis in

12:00

a helicopter landing pad. They

12:02

needed by Tuesday. Their budget is twelve

12:04

dollars and uh

12:07

and I'm exaggerating a little, but maybe

12:09

not as much as uh

12:11

as I wish. So, of course,

12:14

of course they're the most picky people

12:16

with twelve dollars you've ever seen. Yes,

12:18

But but it's like it's I think it's it's meant to

12:20

be aspirational, where it's like, I

12:23

too could have a multimillion

12:25

dollar fixer upper in San

12:27

Francisco, you know, me with

12:29

my meager podcast salary. You

12:32

know, it's it's what keeps people on the hook because it doesn't

12:34

make them feel like there's I think there's different like

12:36

categories of reality show. There's the ones that are

12:38

meant to be exclusive and be like a look

12:41

into a world you could never possibly

12:43

be a part of. And then there's ones like those

12:46

that are aspirational and they're meant to be like, oh

12:48

that could be me. I could do that, I could

12:50

learn how to grout a bathtub or whatever

12:53

it is. You know, It's it's interesting

12:55

on all these shows they fall into buckets, but at the end

12:57

of the day, they're all about keeping you.

12:59

You know, if your eyes glued to the show, We're gonna

13:01

talk about that, right what it

13:04

means, Like the reality that is prayed

13:06

to us? What does that mean? What are they telling

13:09

us? Yeah? Yeah, because so

13:11

reality TV is a genre

13:14

and want to be fair to it today. So I'm

13:17

not trying to put my thumb on the

13:19

scales here when I say the

13:21

term reality TV is a group

13:24

term, kind of like the term cancer

13:26

is a group term. It describes a lot of very

13:28

different things with uh, you know, a

13:30

core, a kind of spinal column of

13:32

commonalities. Once upon a time,

13:35

you know, we would consider news

13:38

programs or interviews or talk

13:40

shows to be reality

13:43

TV, or uh, follow

13:45

alongs for law enforcement

13:48

or medical professionals, or even live

13:50

quiz shows like, of course the quiz

13:52

Show. So now,

13:55

as in, we're at a

13:57

place where reality TV as a

13:59

concept has evolved, and the phrase means

14:01

the specific groupings of shows,

14:04

And there's so many subgenres. Transactional

14:06

shows like storage Wars, pond

14:09

Stars, documentary approaches

14:11

of being diplomatic here,

14:13

varying credibility, makeover

14:16

shows right, let us make you look

14:18

appropriate? Right? Let us

14:21

that's it's a dangerous aspiration, uh.

14:23

And then shows where contestants ostensibly

14:26

search for romance or our

14:29

specifically, competition shows like

14:32

cooking shows, and

14:34

a lot of these what's the What's

14:36

the Ninja Warrior, Ultimate Ninja ultimately

14:39

warrior. I was about to say, yeah, like obsolutely,

14:41

it's it's basically grown up double

14:43

there, you know, with much higher stakes. You

14:45

guys remember doubled there. Nickelodeon had a

14:47

lot of these back in the day. I mean, you're right, then

14:49

game shows do theoretically fall into

14:52

that category in an interesting

14:54

way. But then there's that whole quiz show scandal that

14:56

showed even those types of shows

14:58

lack credibility. That was like could

15:01

yeah, but it was a big deal. It was a huge

15:04

gerfuffle. There's a film about it, uh

15:07

with what's his face? Sam Rockwell, um, where

15:09

it talks about that whole Thing's also that he was like a

15:11

secret spy and there's all that's a really fast It was called

15:13

Portrait of a Dangerous Mind. I think it's what it's called

15:15

or something along those lines. But yeah, it

15:17

was essentially they were rigging it so

15:20

that people would stay engaged and you'd

15:22

root for the the they would basically

15:24

like identify this is the contest of that everybody

15:27

likes, this is the one we want to do well,

15:29

these are the ones we want to eliminate. Has nothing to

15:31

do with their actual intellect. It has

15:33

to do with what kind of you know,

15:35

curatorial, you know, kind of

15:38

stable of humans they want to push forth

15:40

that people can most identify with. Yeah,

15:43

and that's why there are, at

15:46

least in the US, their federal laws regarding

15:49

how a competition has to

15:51

be carried out. But there are a lot of loopholes

15:54

in that, you know what I mean, and you can

15:57

that's why you'll see a lot of tiered

15:59

competitions. There are multiple episodes

16:01

right of the same competition, and

16:04

so you can see the producers

16:06

or showrunners tilting

16:08

things in favor of one person or another

16:10

based on their ratings, right, or based on audience

16:13

response. But you might also see

16:15

something like snapshot

16:17

of life, people with a very specific

16:19

job, truckers driving across

16:22

roads made of ice in the far North.

16:25

I'd say it's also I'd say it's also

16:27

common to see wealthy,

16:31

vapid people try and fail

16:34

to do anything worthwhile or

16:36

of interest. But you know, that's

16:39

like interest is in the eye of the beholder.

16:41

And again, you know, I'm not

16:44

saying I'm not saying these people

16:46

are vapid. I'm saying they are portrayed as

16:48

being vapid by the producers.

16:50

Someone's telling you or you

16:53

know, steering towards what you can see. You'll

16:55

see people vying for a specific prize,

16:57

a music deal, a million dollars

17:00

weight loss. Love it or hate it. This

17:03

is a massive genre and

17:05

it's older then.

17:07

A lot of us in the audience today probably

17:10

think like you think Big Brother, you think,

17:12

uh, the real world and

17:14

Puck and everything. But the truth

17:17

is something like this genre has been around

17:19

since the earliest days of television.

17:22

We have to remember when television came out,

17:24

when it started rolling out, it was much

17:26

more experimental. People weren't sure

17:29

what would work, kind of the way that uh

17:31

podcasts were several years

17:34

ago. This like,

17:36

there's this show in nine called

17:40

Queen for a Day, Queen

17:42

for a Day, and you can you can find some clips

17:44

online about this. Queen for a Day

17:46

would have various contestants

17:49

come on the show and explain

17:51

their plights, often in

17:53

a very tearful way, to an

17:56

audience, and there would be an applausometer,

17:59

and if this person's tale

18:02

of woe and tribulation connected

18:05

most with the audience measured by applause,

18:08

then they would be given

18:10

like they would sit on a throne. They

18:12

would get some they would

18:14

get some like costumery

18:18

that looked like royalty.

18:20

They would get a dozen roses and then they

18:22

would get a list of prizes. This

18:25

show was tremendously popular. There

18:27

was another show called Candid

18:30

Camera. Well, remember that the guy

18:32

who made Candid Camera also

18:34

had a show in the days of radio

18:36

called Candid Microphone. And that's where

18:39

like that genre is. I think

18:41

a lot of us in the West are familiar with it.

18:43

People got pranked and then they would

18:45

learn later that they were being filmed

18:48

by hidden cameras. Like I think

18:50

most of us probably have

18:54

not seen actually seen an episode

18:56

of Candid Camera, but it's

18:58

it's uh, it

19:01

is part of our zeitgeist. Now smile,

19:04

you're on the camera, right, yeah,

19:06

Well, and now that everyone has a camera, it's

19:09

happening all the time without our knowledge. And

19:11

that show came out in nineteen you

19:15

know. So there were other predecessors

19:17

that were more serious in tone that

19:19

we're a little bit more like what we

19:21

might call a PBS documentary.

19:24

There's one that's of continuing relevance today

19:26

called seven Up. Do you guys, You guys remember

19:29

hearing about that? Yes, Seven Up

19:31

was a television show in nineteen

19:33

sixty four. That got together a group

19:35

of kids who are all aged seven

19:38

and conducted interviews with them,

19:41

and then every following seven years

19:44

they would interview them again, so in

19:46

chunks of seven years, just to see how

19:48

all of these people are growing up, what are their aspirations

19:51

at seven, How did it play out when they were fourteen?

19:53

Probably not so great. That's middle school. Nobody

19:56

likes that. And then

19:59

but then continued on and the most recent

20:02

installment actually came out in nineteen

20:05

just last year. It's called sixty three Up.

20:08

Wow. Yep. It's

20:10

interesting because it began with

20:14

and I think, uh, this would be of interest

20:16

to you as well, Mission control. It

20:19

It began without really a plot, you

20:22

know, or the constraints that are

20:24

familiar in today's reality TV shows.

20:26

They documentary style. We're

20:29

talking to these people about their lives, and

20:31

they kind of found the themes

20:33

and the narration and the arc as these

20:36

people aged. Yeah, and and and that's

20:38

you know, that's the true mark

20:40

of a good documentary. You kind

20:42

of go and maybe with a little bit of understanding

20:44

of what you're going to cover, and then if you do

20:46

it for long enough period, the story kind

20:48

of reveals itself. I think the best documentary

20:51

is often like the filmmakers go in maybe

20:53

with one idea of what they're gonna get, and then it takes

20:56

some interesting turn. But the only way you

20:58

can do that is by covering a topic for a very

21:00

very long time and being able to kind

21:02

of roll with the punches as things change, as

21:04

parts of the stories develop in ways you hadn't expected.

21:07

So these seven up docs really are documentary,

21:10

like, you know, very well thought out, very

21:12

well produced documentary style filmmaking,

21:14

as opposed to more of what we're going to talk

21:16

about today, which are which are very

21:19

much the antithesis of that. So

21:21

fast forward. N ABC

21:24

creates a show called The American

21:27

Sportsman. This show, uh,

21:29

this show introduces celebrity

21:34

kind of like for its own sake, Like here

21:36

are famous people with

21:38

which are already familiar, but there

21:40

maybe not necessarily doing this stuff they're

21:42

famous for. Instead, they and family

21:45

members and maybe friends are doing outdoor

21:47

activities. They're driving race cars,

21:49

you know, they're they're hunting, etcetera.

21:52

The action in the dialogue as a

21:54

result of this was unscripted. Uh.

21:57

The the only scripted stuff would

21:59

be vo narration vo

22:01

meaning voice over, and this

22:03

is often today consider the first

22:06

modern reality show.

22:08

But again, for a lot of us listening

22:11

today, the paradigm shift

22:13

for reality TV begins with shows

22:15

like the Real World, which premiered

22:17

in n UH.

22:20

Strangers are selected,

22:23

not famous people, maybe people who

22:25

aspire to be famous, Uh,

22:27

these people anyway, and they're selected based

22:29

on what the showrunners see as their

22:32

potential for discord and

22:34

uh. And then they are put together in

22:36

a shared living space and

22:39

what happens when people stop

22:41

being polite and start being real? Right?

22:43

This is something that MTV spun

22:46

out in multiple spinoffs and spinoffs. Did

22:48

you guys watch this when you were when you were younger?

22:51

Did not? Okay? I? Yeah? I Ben

22:53

did not. Matt Dead, I definitely

22:55

did. I don't think the earliest one was I believe

22:58

San Francisco. Maybe was it

23:00

London? And I don't recall, but I definitely remember

23:02

Puck Puck. He

23:04

was such a jerk. And then there was there was one

23:06

particular season where there was like this kind of goth metal

23:09

guy who was in London and he like sent

23:12

his girlfriend a pig's heart with

23:14

a nail through it in a box and it was

23:16

so like Emo and I loved

23:19

it. I was whatever his name was. He had like facial

23:21

piercing. That's all I remember. But that was a

23:23

leap forward because it really did feel

23:26

like, oh my god, I'm a fly on the wall watching these

23:28

people's lives unfold very

23:30

organically with no input

23:32

from producers. Surely right,

23:35

yeah, and certainly not cameras

23:38

everywhere as you're trying to have an actual

23:40

interaction with someone, and there's certainly

23:43

not being applied with alcohol or other intoxicants,

23:46

right, and god forbid there'd be a second

23:48

take of something anyhow,

23:51

Yes, you guys are right from there.

23:53

The genre was very much off to the

23:55

races. Now we have so many

23:57

subgenres what is called reality

23:59

TV. There are spinoffs of spinoffs

24:01

of spinoffs, just like the heyday of sitcoms.

24:04

The trend does not seem set to

24:07

die down anytime soon.

24:09

As a matter of fact, if anything, it can.

24:12

The trend continues, it escalates

24:14

in alone, there were

24:17

hundreds and hundreds of reality TV shows

24:19

on primetime cable, eight three

24:23

more than scripted shows.

24:26

Crucially, that number is not,

24:28

uh, the the entire snapshot,

24:31

because that only accounts for series

24:33

that aired during primetime and

24:36

on cable, so we're not counting broadcast

24:38

network reality shows like American Idol

24:41

or Survivor or all the documentary

24:44

programs on PBS. Once again,

24:46

thank you PBS for be

24:49

there. It's a

24:51

big proponent PBS. If you have

24:54

cable in and

24:56

you know a lot of us don't, A lot of us

24:58

are cord cutters. But if you have cable

25:00

and you're near a television, odds

25:03

are that if you turn it on right now

25:05

and you just scroll through the channels, you

25:07

will find inevitably some

25:10

sort of thing that could be called unscripted

25:12

or reality TV. It's here

25:14

to stay, and despite what

25:17

often seems to be its innocuous nature,

25:19

it shouldn't surprise anybody to know what that Reality

25:21

TV is enormously controversial.

25:24

Fans and critics of the shows in this

25:26

genre will readily admit

25:29

it is not as real as it is often

25:31

made to seem. Spoiler that is

25:33

not the big plot twist for today's

25:35

episode. UH. Audience

25:37

interests may also not be the driving

25:39

factor in the boom. In

25:42

fact, some sub networks

25:44

maybe UH pushing programming

25:46

that audiences don't particularly want, and

25:50

according to some reality

25:52

television may be dangerous.

25:55

What are we talking about? We'll tell you after

25:57

a word from our sponsor. Here's

26:06

where it gets crazy there.

26:10

First things first, long

26:13

time listeners, I hope you know that this would

26:15

not be our only twist for the episode.

26:17

There's several crazy things. But yes, I

26:21

don't know if we're in a bubble Matt

26:23

Noel. But I feel like everybody

26:25

knows reality TV is much

26:27

less real than it purports

26:30

to be, right, Like that's not classified

26:33

document or anything. Yeah, it's like wrestling,

26:35

you know. I mean, maybe there's that one poor

26:38

little kid who's gonna have his his

26:40

mind blown when he realizes that, uh,

26:42

wrestling is not real. Hopefully I'm not

26:44

doing that to you poor little kid right now. But

26:46

same with reality TV. I mean, like, I

26:49

think it's pretty much not even

26:51

an open secret because you can't even say it's a

26:53

secret. But it's not like people come right

26:55

out and say it. But everyone

26:57

kind of knows. There's been plenty of expose as is a really

27:00

Adam Ruins everything about

27:02

it that does a really good job of demystifying

27:04

all of some of the tactics and specific production

27:07

techniques that go into the making of

27:09

a reality show, some of which you know I talked about at

27:11

the beginning of the show. But yeah, it's very

27:13

much a known thing, and it

27:15

doesn't The interesting thing about it is it doesn't

27:17

really affect your enjoyment of it, or

27:19

it doesn't seem to have caused it to wane in popularity,

27:22

I think, is what I'm getting at. Same with wrestling

27:24

and exactly, and

27:27

it really is the invisible hand of storytelling

27:30

that we're going to talk about, the how

27:32

the editors have a lot of control over that

27:34

in in this world. One thing we

27:36

didn't mention earlier was just the number of

27:38

streaming service only reality

27:41

shows because those things are just flooded

27:44

with all of those shows or types of the

27:46

shows that we mentioned at the top of the show. I'm

27:48

never looking over and writing a note,

27:50

Matt, because this is excellent foreshadowing.

27:53

I have a I have a thing about

27:56

this. Okay, okay, oh no, no, no,

27:58

no, this is perfect because

28:00

this this leads us to a very weird,

28:04

very weird cultural rabbit holes. And

28:07

But but to do the due diligence,

28:09

as is our want and warrant

28:12

on this show, we are going to

28:15

We're going to proceed to uh

28:18

demolish any illusions that

28:21

some of us may still have about the

28:23

reality depicted in reality

28:25

television. As as we

28:27

said earlier, producers

28:30

are the storytellers. I really love that

28:32

phrase, the invisible hand of storytelling.

28:34

To Matt, producers might frank

28:36

and by audio, take visual clips,

28:39

edit them out of context to get closer

28:41

to a desired narrative.

28:44

Good example of this off the top of my head.

28:47

If you are a producer on a show

28:49

and you want to of the

28:52

cast members on the show to fight,

28:55

then maybe you know,

28:57

these are not dumb people. They're

29:00

they're pretty smart. Uh so

29:02

they may even like each other and they don't

29:04

want to seem like they're fighting. But all

29:07

you have to do is take

29:09

a clip of like take a

29:11

clip of Matt and Noel

29:14

on on a camping trip and

29:16

Matt saying, hey, is

29:18

there do we do we have any more coffee?

29:21

And then Noel goes, oh,

29:24

sorry, I didn't make any yet, and then just

29:26

cut to uh, cut to a different

29:29

clip. Like this is why there was always the stand

29:31

ups or the confessional parts. Cut

29:33

to a different clip where there

29:35

the producer's off screen asking Matt

29:37

like, so what do you think of

29:39

Adolph Hitler? And then Matt's

29:42

like, I think he's a terrible

29:44

person, right, I think Adolf Hitler is a terrible, terrible

29:47

person, Like, could you say that but not

29:49

say the name Adolf Hitler's

29:51

like, oh yeah, I hate him. I think he's a

29:53

monster. And then in the post

29:55

production the editing, it goes straight

29:57

from the clip of a

29:59

very normal conversation about

30:02

should we make coffee to Matt

30:04

saying I hate him. I think he's a monster.

30:07

And then and then they'll just frank and bite

30:09

some other clip of um

30:11

of Noel saying something

30:13

again completely innocuous. Maybe they used

30:15

the Hitler trick on him that I'm making

30:17

that up, but it is a very plausible

30:19

thing. And then maybe if they don't

30:21

have to frank and bite you guys, if

30:24

you're totally down to play ball

30:26

and jump through those hoops, then they'll

30:29

lean into it and say, okay,

30:31

uh, we want you guys to really

30:33

disagree about I don't

30:36

know about where a tent should

30:38

be pitched, and then and go okay, you

30:40

know, and you guys have the argument

30:42

about where the tent should be pitched like that

30:44

was great. That was great, guys, that was really

30:47

honest. Um, we're gonna reset

30:49

a couple of cameras because we

30:51

want to get a good over the shoulder on

30:54

Matt and then you'll

30:56

just have the argument again like those

30:58

some of those things you see that appear to spontaneous

31:01

organic disputes are

31:03

like multiple iterative

31:06

takes. Oh. Absolutely, And

31:08

like I was saying with the pilot that Paul

31:10

and I worked on, the producers

31:12

will actively do things to

31:15

to game the system, like sending

31:17

those packages you know to this

31:20

uh potentially braggadocious

31:23

uh, you know cast member who

31:25

in an effort to like get the other women

31:28

to be annoyed with her being all,

31:30

look at me, my boyfriend sending

31:32

me all these amazing gifts. Oh, he loves

31:34

me so much. And then they have like,

31:37

so, what do you think about Anya? Like she's

31:39

a little much huh Oh my god,

31:42

Yes, Anya is the worst. You know

31:44

she had She sent those two herself. You

31:46

know that she did that just to like, you know, be

31:48

the center of attention, right and then

31:50

you know, yeah, and then they asked, Anya, what

31:53

do you think that? Well, I don't understand why the other

31:55

goesa so mean to me. You know,

31:57

I just I'm just so beautiful and my boyfriend

32:00

just loves me. What's wrong with that? You know, and

32:02

then it all comes to a head. And even that's

32:04

manufacturer because they literally have

32:07

each other talking trash about each other

32:09

behind their backs, and they're poking

32:11

the bear essentially and creating

32:13

this situation where there's this like explosion

32:15

moment and then they capture that too, and

32:18

they potentially do that from

32:20

other angles. You know, it's it's it's it's

32:22

pretty wild. Let me play this clip

32:25

of what Anya said for you, and I'd like you

32:27

to react to it exactly,

32:29

or even if you're in one of those confessional booths.

32:32

Was a big right in

32:34

front of you and there's a producer

32:36

in your ear and just saying, you know, we captured

32:38

some pretty disturbing stuff earlier.

32:41

Um that was said about you, and I

32:43

just love to know what you think about this, And

32:45

that's all you have to do because I'm on your

32:47

side. Yeah, I want to hear your side

32:50

of this. Uh, there's you know.

32:52

The first example two

32:54

is often things will get phrased

32:57

as questions. That's one

33:00

that's one big part of interrogation

33:02

and psychosocial manipulation.

33:05

Right, You don't you don't have to tell people

33:07

what to say. You ask people a question

33:10

and then frame it in such

33:12

way that you're trying to get them to say what you

33:14

want them to say, as though it were their

33:16

ideas. So, for instance, if you're on

33:18

a pilot about hunting for

33:21

some uh fictitious

33:23

lost silver mine in the

33:25

apple in the Appalachian forest,

33:28

and someone says, you know, I

33:30

heard that there was a lost silver mind and

33:32

I heard that there were even

33:36

statues there hidden

33:38

that might have some mayan influence.

33:41

What do you think about that? And like, well, it's

33:43

the first time I've heard it, and I don't think it's true. Oh

33:45

and if you could please rephrase my question and your

33:48

answer, please rephrase my question and your answer.

33:50

By the way, what if it but what if

33:52

that happens to but what I'm talking about? Like they

33:55

but what if it was? Could

33:58

you just repeat the question, which

34:01

is why? Like which is why. You'll see people who

34:03

are you know, um,

34:05

incredibly reputable scientists who

34:07

are top notch right, and they'll they'll,

34:10

uh, they'll come off looking like

34:12

they believe wholeheartedly and

34:14

ancient aliens or something like that,

34:16

and a lot of those scientists are very

34:19

upset, you know, when when

34:21

they see the end result because they've

34:24

been told just to say Uh,

34:26

just like read these questions, and they'll read five

34:28

questions, and one of them is the one that

34:31

the showrunner is aiming to use

34:33

right well, and and the reason I

34:35

bring up the whole please rephrase my question

34:38

in your response. A. It's

34:40

a good technique so that you can

34:42

cut out the interviewer's voice so

34:44

that you have a self contained sound by but it also

34:47

kind of primes the pump for whatever

34:50

forgetting that person to talk about what you

34:52

want them to talk about. So you asked them

34:54

this question, and then they literally have to

34:56

kind of frame their entire answer

34:58

around incorporating that question into their

35:00

response, thereby making that sort

35:03

of the locust of control for the

35:05

whole, the whole shebang, where

35:07

like it starts from okay, I have to

35:09

like answer, maybe it's a leading

35:12

question. It usually is, and then

35:14

you're playing totally playing ball

35:16

by making that question part

35:18

of your answer when maybe it was a question that it

35:21

was phrased in a divisive way or

35:23

in a leading way or in some way kind of like

35:25

you know, um, misleading. Uh,

35:28

this is the way I think about it, guys. So, Uh,

35:32

most of us out there have scenes

35:35

or know what a script is, right, We understand

35:38

that it's a series of words

35:40

on a lot of paper that tells usually

35:43

a camera and actors what to do.

35:45

That's generally in what's going to happen on set.

35:48

The way I think about reality TV is

35:50

that you don't have a script at all until you've

35:52

got all or most of your stuff

35:55

shot, and then you form that script

35:57

backwards basically from what you

35:59

know, you what you want to happen, and

36:02

then everything else you kind of plot in with

36:04

footage that you've collected, right, and

36:06

there's gonna be holes in there that I

36:08

need to get from point A to point B somehow.

36:11

Now I need to get this person or

36:13

somebody else to say this very specific

36:16

thing. And they use the technique Ben is talking about

36:18

where they will just try and seed you with

36:20

something as the

36:22

actor or character, or

36:25

try and psychologically manipulate

36:27

it out of you in some way. And

36:29

for many people this can feel

36:31

like a big break. You know, so

36:33

we're incentivized to play ball. But

36:35

but okay, so we've we've proven

36:38

that this stuff happens. Producers, also,

36:41

by the way, are known for breaking various

36:43

rules off camera. You're in a survival

36:45

show, right, there's one where it's

36:47

like literally, people are supposed to be running around

36:49

naked, surviving in the wild, but

36:52

off off air, they're

36:54

supplied with medicine, they're supplied with food

36:56

and things like that when the cameras aren't rolling. So

36:59

yes, there are many, many,

37:01

many, many instances of what could

37:03

be called active conspiracies on

37:05

the sets of many reality TV shows.

37:08

That doesn't make them bad again, because

37:10

hey, if it's an open secret and

37:12

people still dig it and

37:15

no one is getting hurt and

37:17

no big whoop? Right, uh, where

37:19

where's where? Where's the beef? Where's the impossible

37:21

burger? In that one? But it turns

37:24

out because remember, folks,

37:26

we said, that's not the big twist here. Everybody

37:29

knows that reality TV itself

37:31

is got a more than a bit

37:33

of cave aid to it. As they say in wrestling,

37:36

economic factors are at

37:38

play in a very

37:41

very big way here. Uh. One,

37:44

one thing is interesting, you guys, remember the writer's

37:46

strike two thousand seven are

37:50

very much especially

37:52

with regularly occurring

37:54

shows, late night shows, talk

37:56

shows. I remember that being a

37:58

major issue. Yeah.

38:01

Wow, everything from the Daily Show

38:03

to Cone into all of those gave

38:06

us horrible That was cool.

38:08

I still love that one. Uh, yeah, hamstrung

38:12

broadcasting cable networks. And

38:15

remember there's a billion dollar industry.

38:17

They're scrambling desperately to

38:20

find any original content

38:22

to fill that programming schedule.

38:25

These are not the days of early television.

38:28

You can't just say, well, it's ten PM,

38:30

so we're signing off. Here's our

38:32

you know, here's here's a holding

38:35

pattern screen. So as an end

38:37

result of that, when they couldn't

38:39

get the scripted shows running, right How I Met

38:41

Your Mother? At CRILL the mainstays

38:44

more than one hundred unscripted

38:46

shows, competitions, dating games,

38:48

life improvement stuff. Uh, more

38:51

than one hundred either debuted

38:53

or returned in a single season.

38:56

And I was looking into, uh,

39:00

the boots on the ground for this from both

39:02

people who are established

39:05

industry insiders and then people who

39:07

are kind of like pop

39:09

culture pundits observing this, and

39:13

they said they don't all agree on how

39:15

much impact the writer's strike actually

39:17

had on the explosion of reality TV,

39:19

since it was already well underway, but

39:23

now they said it was something they could no longer be

39:25

dismissed as a trend or

39:27

a fad. From that point

39:29

forward, reality programs began

39:31

to top the ratings week after

39:34

week after week, and it

39:36

was so good for the bottom line.

39:39

This is something that we have run

39:41

into even in our own little

39:43

uh, our own little domain of

39:46

media. Unscripted

39:48

television is much

39:51

much cheaper because

39:53

you don't need a writer, you don't need a

39:55

set barely. I mean, if you're doing a

39:58

game show, I guess, but that weren't rest a little bit a

40:00

conversation for a different day. Um,

40:02

you just need a handful of producers

40:04

or handlers. Uh. You wouldn't

40:06

even really call them a director most

40:08

of the time. I think they're just producers who

40:11

are kind of like you know, you've got a camera

40:13

crew and people that are making sure to get the coverage, and

40:15

you probably have a director of photography that's just

40:17

assuring that they capture as much as

40:19

humanly possible. But so many of these shows

40:22

to like use things like go pros or

40:24

use like even iPhone

40:26

footage, you know. I mean it's that you don't need

40:29

a massive, glitzy production

40:31

with tons of lighting. You can use a

40:34

skeleton crew and you're just setting

40:36

up and picking up in some very like maybe there's

40:38

a whole show that takes place. Definitely there

40:40

is in the house, like a Big Brother situation

40:43

where it's just lots of little cheapye GoPro

40:45

cameras mounted everywhere, and those confessional

40:47

booths or what have you. It's all

40:50

really really affordable. And think about something

40:52

as simple as set dressing in

40:55

in a place. So in a reality show,

40:59

this person and you may enhance

41:01

the reality of what exists in their

41:03

room right to make that

41:05

character seem more, oh, they really

41:07

like baseball. But in a in

41:09

a film or a televis

41:12

scripted television series, you have to very

41:14

specifically place things that are

41:16

going to tell you about the

41:19

arc of that character. And

41:21

the money that you spend on just stuff

41:23

for set dressing is insane.

41:26

And the people you have to pay to make sure

41:28

all of that stuff gets in the right place and

41:30

is in the right spot every time

41:32

your roll camera. Um, and

41:34

that's like the tiniest liver of

41:37

expenses that you're saving when you make

41:39

unscripted And that is UH.

41:42

I hope you don't get mad at me for disclosing this

41:44

man, but uh, Matt, I can tell you're

41:46

still a little bit bitter about

41:49

the uh set design costs

41:51

that sank, That sank your

41:53

historically accurate period

41:56

piece series right on.

41:59

What was that again? What time

42:01

period was that? My historically

42:03

accurate period accurate period

42:06

piece project? Oh?

42:09

Man, improv improv, yes

42:12

and yes, and oh

42:14

it was. I

42:17

got nothing, guys, I've

42:21

kind of got something like this going on behind

42:23

me right now. If you can see this video, I

42:26

am ridiculously delayed right now in our

42:28

zoom called by the way, and it is weirding me out.

42:30

But I've set dressed the everything

42:33

that's behind me to be Matt,

42:36

like this is Matt to the character represented

42:39

in things behind me. And

42:41

it's what you would do for either production

42:44

scripted or unscripted. But I guess

42:46

the stakes of it for

42:48

unscripted or so smaller.

42:51

I don't know where I'm going with this guy. Yeah, I

42:53

totally I I totally improv rules

42:55

through you under the bus. I apologize,

42:58

but um, but

43:01

but I just I love the idea of

43:03

you having uh like this

43:06

mostly and they can sweeping

43:10

historical epic and then like

43:13

the breaking point for the budget

43:15

was making sure you add historically

43:18

accurate you know, like carriages

43:20

or something. But but that

43:22

happens, you know, and it is You're right,

43:24

there are so many expenses to come into play,

43:26

like uh, according to e

43:29

Online and according to History

43:31

Channel, a thirty minute episode

43:33

of your average reality TV show halts

43:36

somewhere between a hundred grand

43:38

to five grand to produce.

43:41

That's a huge amount of money

43:44

for individuals, but in the world of television,

43:46

it's not very much money at all.

43:48

That's a steel that's a fire sale.

43:51

Because if you look at the other side of the spectrum.

43:54

Uh, think about what we call prestige

43:56

television, right, breaking Bad Sopranos

43:59

set or the last season of

44:02

Game of Thrones, despite being enormously

44:04

divisive, Uh,

44:07

keeping my personal opinions out here. Uh,

44:09

each episode of that last

44:12

season cost fifteen million

44:15

dollars. Think of how much reality

44:17

TV you can make with fifteen mil

44:20

Oh my god, so many fewer people.

44:22

No sets. You don't have to be in

44:25

the winter. Winter is not coming

44:27

in your reality show unless you're the Ice Road Truckers.

44:29

It's already come. It's too late, right,

44:33

right, and an ice road truckers, I think they have their

44:35

own trucks, so you don't have to pay for those either. This

44:38

means that there's inherently going

44:40

to be more risk in making

44:42

any kind of scripted show because

44:45

a huge budget doesn't always

44:47

translate to huge ratings,

44:49

doesn't always translate to commercial

44:51

success. You could spend millions

44:54

of dollars per episode

44:56

on a season of something, and critics

44:58

could pan it, and you know, like

45:00

it would be the worst move of your

45:02

career. So why write a stunnying

45:04

fantasy? Why produce this historically

45:07

accurate, sweeping thing when you could

45:09

just churn and burn unscripted material

45:12

across all these different subgenres.

45:15

I mean, the

45:17

weird thing is, for a while, production

45:20

houses were creating scripted television

45:23

and it's very expensive to create it, and

45:25

they were also regularly losing

45:28

in their ratings to reality

45:30

TV. Oh yeah,

45:32

I mean we run into that

45:34

a lot in podcast world, and

45:37

a lot of big television production

45:39

companies are seeing that as an

45:41

opportunity as well, where it's

45:43

all about the intellectual property wars,

45:45

where it's like people want to develop things

45:48

for as cheaply as possible and test out intellectual

45:50

property. And we see that happening with shows

45:52

like Homecoming that started off as a podcast,

45:55

did moderately well as a podcast,

45:58

and then since they knew there

46:00

was an interest, it's almost like a pretty cheap focus

46:02

group version of a more expensive thing. Then

46:05

they they sold it as a television show and

46:07

then it did very well and now it's got multiple

46:09

seasons and it's on streaming. And it's an

46:11

interesting world with the media landscape,

46:14

especially now guys with COVID

46:16

and the movie theaters essentially

46:19

being like on the brink of annihilation.

46:22

Like we saw that movie Tenant come out and and

46:24

did like why I think thirty million dollars

46:26

total over like two weeks, which

46:29

and it costs like hundreds of millions

46:31

of dollars, and that it just does not bode

46:33

well for the industry. So they're gonna, I wonder

46:35

if we're gonna see more of this kind of stuff

46:38

or more things as podcasts where

46:40

it's all about how quickly and cheaply can

46:42

you make it um while

46:45

you know, still presenting an

46:47

appearance of quality or integrity or

46:49

what have you. Yeah, well, let's let's

46:51

talk about that. The money, the actual

46:53

ticket price right really quickly. Here, History

46:56

Channel or you know History,

46:58

excuse me History, they would budget

47:00

two thousand to four thousand

47:04

per episode for an unscripted

47:06

show. Just then they make a lot

47:08

of them, and they have historically made

47:10

a lot of them, and

47:12

and they air some of the highest rated shows

47:15

in America. Their show Pond

47:17

Stars that we've talked about, we mentioned

47:19

at least in passing at the top of the show where

47:21

it's literally a pawn shop. What happens

47:24

that's exciting in this pawn shop, Well, you gotta

47:26

tune in to find out that was beating

47:29

mad Men, one of the

47:32

most lauded shows to come

47:34

around in a long time. It was beating

47:36

that Pod Stars was beating mad

47:39

Men in ratings on Sunday nights when

47:41

they were both airing at the same time, and

47:43

it was infinitely cheaper.

47:49

The profit margins are much higher

47:51

because the production costs are much lower.

47:54

The people that would be the talent, right

47:56

the principal cast of something like

47:59

Pawn Pond Stars

48:01

or something like American Pickers

48:03

or something, they tend to make much

48:06

much less than actors in a scripted

48:08

series. We've all heard stories about a

48:10

successful sitcom and how

48:12

much money each actor makes per episode.

48:15

Also, the scripting we talked about this little

48:17

The scripting that does occur is

48:19

kind of like a

48:21

long form, semi improvised thing. There

48:24

beats to this story. There's a narrative

48:26

spine and that falls on the producers.

48:28

The producers are not considered writers. They're

48:31

not represented by a writer's union. That

48:33

also lowers the cost. Those two

48:35

factors alone mean the profit margin

48:37

on a reality TV production can go

48:40

as high as fort like

48:42

back in its back in its glory days,

48:45

American Idol was making.

48:47

It was generating nineties six

48:49

million dollars in revenue. That

48:52

gave it a gross profit margin of

48:55

seventy seven percent. And that's just

48:57

based on the ad dollars. That doesn't count

48:59

that d d D sales back in the

49:01

days of physical media were huge

49:04

income stream people were buying

49:06

you know, the Real Housewives of insert city

49:08

here, and they were buying it on DVD

49:10

or Blu ray, and they were keeping it, they were giving it as

49:12

a gift of friends and so on. Product

49:14

placement super easy,

49:17

you know, because I'm like excited

49:19

to uh to work

49:22

with Shaun Puffy Colmes and I really need

49:24

to get uh, I need to get my my

49:26

verse in and nothing charges

49:29

me up like uh monster energy.

49:31

You know. Well yeah, and then Matt, to your

49:34

point about set dressing, I almost

49:36

would say more attention on

49:38

reality TV show in terms of

49:40

set dressing goes into making sure those brands

49:42

are visible in the background, or

49:45

that something's placed on a kitchen table

49:47

or are seen prominently in the fridge,

49:50

you know, or whatever it is. Like, that's

49:52

the kind of set dressing, because it's all about

49:54

maximizing those dollars and

49:56

then making sure that no, it doesn't matter

49:58

if oh this tells us story about a person

50:01

or an arc. It's can you see the box

50:03

of flame? And hot cheetahs you know come

50:06

in boxes, they come in bags. But you get

50:08

what I'm saying. And one other piece

50:10

of revenue for

50:13

any reality TV show is actually licensing.

50:16

If I've got a show like The Bachelor,

50:19

let me, I could republish

50:22

The Bachelor all the livelong day in another

50:24

country. But why don't I just sell a license,

50:27

have someone else make their own version of The Bachelor,

50:29

and just wait by the mailbox for the check.

50:32

That's something else that happens to Every

50:34

country has an idol, right, right,

50:37

So we have two we have we have two

50:39

twists there. First that

50:41

reality shows are

50:43

so profitable because

50:45

they are so comparatively

50:48

they're so so cheap to

50:50

produce, right uh. And then we know that

50:52

it is in fact a

50:55

very for being diplomatic, a very

50:57

guided version of reality at

50:59

the very least. But those aren't

51:01

the twist that should bother you. That shouldn't

51:03

be what haunts

51:05

you the next time you watch reality television.

51:08

There should be something that haunts you. We'll tell

51:10

you what it is after a word from our sponsor.

51:20

So the final twist is

51:22

what we could perhaps call cultural

51:26

danger. This reminds me a

51:28

lot of we've seen it depicted

51:30

in fiction as well. In the film

51:32

adaptation of The Hunger Games,

51:35

there is a American idol esque

51:38

reality show component to

51:40

the to the death matches

51:43

that these children are forced to fight in. And

51:46

this didn't come from, you know,

51:48

just the mind of the author. Over

51:50

at The New Yorker, a writer and journalist

51:53

named Khalifa Sona outline

51:55

some of the less obvious dangers

51:58

of the cultural impact and enormous

52:00

influence wielded by reality

52:02

TV. Anthropologists

52:05

have been looking at the concept of reality

52:07

TV since as far back as the nineteen

52:09

seventies and nineteen seventy three. Anthropologist

52:12

Margaret Mead wrote an essay that

52:14

was kind of under the radar

52:17

published in TV Guide, where she

52:19

expounded on the impact of this new

52:21

genre. She said it was a new kind

52:23

of art form as significant

52:26

as the invention of the drama

52:28

or the novel. There's another

52:30

author, Jennifer L. Posner wrote

52:33

a book called Reality Bites Back The

52:35

Troubling Truth about Guilty Pleasure

52:37

TV, and she

52:40

notes that a lot of these shows,

52:43

whether by design or by accident, a lot

52:45

of these shows end up reinforcing

52:48

what are seeing as cultural

52:51

or social norms. It's

52:53

education as well as entertainment.

52:56

When you when you watched these shows

52:59

and you re act when we when

53:01

we react as though we are scandalized

53:04

by something, or we are touched

53:06

or we are saddened, what we are

53:08

reacting to is the depiction of

53:11

a cultural norm

53:13

or what someone wants to be a cultural norm

53:16

that is foisted upon us as the viewer.

53:19

Or we're rooting for someone

53:21

to meet cultural norms

53:23

and to be like us, one of us,

53:26

or to you know, to to yeah,

53:28

to conform. Really, what

53:31

we're learning is conformity. It is

53:33

an education as much as it's entertainment,

53:35

but it's not sold as such. And that's that's

53:37

a secret that people don't talk about as often

53:40

as they should. In some cases,

53:42

this stuff is straight up propaganda. Think

53:44

about it. A show about losing weight

53:47

reinforces the concept

53:49

of what is or is not considered

53:51

an acceptable or ideal body

53:54

image. Shows about finding love

53:56

have this heavy implication that people

53:58

cannot be happy by them selves, that to

54:01

be a full member of society,

54:03

one must participate in rituals

54:05

like marriage. Makeover shows

54:07

skirt the line of ridiculing

54:10

people for you know, being themselves,

54:13

that they want us

54:16

to uh, they want us as

54:18

the audience to agree that, yes, these

54:20

wretched souls are just not

54:23

good enough. So thank god,

54:25

and think the network that someone

54:28

is here to correct that misconception.

54:30

For my personal amusement, I

54:32

mean, think about the racial stereotypes

54:35

that proliferate through a

54:37

lot of these things. A lot of matchmaking shows

54:39

to uh, they're like, they're numerous

54:41

contestants. Multiple shows have

54:44

alleged serious discrimination based

54:46

on race. Oh yeah, for sure. And just

54:48

something to think about here. In any

54:52

any thing you're watching on television,

54:55

there is always subtext

54:57

to what is occurring at all times.

55:00

Times. Actions that are taking place,

55:02

character representations, even if they are

55:04

reality, the way they are represented, their

55:06

subtext to that. There's stuff that is

55:08

not said, It's not on the page written

55:11

down, but it has meaning.

55:13

There's a reasoning that you come to whether

55:16

consciously or subconsciously about

55:18

these things. And it's no different

55:21

in something like the Sopranos versus

55:24

something like honey Boo boo. There's

55:27

subtext in there that maybe

55:29

you're not necessarily

55:31

grasping in that moment, Like Ben just described

55:34

a lot of various ones. But yeah,

55:36

there's there's some there's some

55:38

pretty bad stuff that's been alleged here. Just I just

55:40

want to put the subtext angle in there. Yeah, I

55:42

mean, consider also there's a transactional

55:45

angle to a lot of this humiliate

55:48

yourself for in

55:51

front of millions of strangers, for

55:53

the chance at somehow,

55:56

in some way having a better life.

55:58

Those contestants on Wean for a Day,

56:01

right, or or thousands of reality

56:03

TV show contestants over the intervening

56:06

decades, they're forced to undergo various

56:08

forms of degradation emotional

56:10

trauma, or at least the appearance of it, for

56:13

the passive amusement of strangers.

56:15

Fear. Yeah, yeah, yeah, eat

56:17

bugs, Why go to college? Yeah,

56:19

goat penis whatever? Yeah, But I mean,

56:22

uh, it is kind of the modern

56:24

equivalent of like bread and circuses,

56:27

like the you know, gladiator

56:29

battles, Like it's people. It's it's

56:31

literally, it's weaponized schadenfreude

56:34

where we it's so popular because

56:36

it makes people feel better about themselves

56:38

to watch people they perceive as lesser

56:41

than them humiliating

56:43

themselves on public television. And I look at that

56:45

idiot. At least I'm not that stupid,

56:48

or at least I'm not that poor, or at

56:50

least I'm not that desperate or whatever.

56:52

It's it's it's it's weaponizing this

56:55

impulse in human beings that is very

56:57

nasty. Agreed. I mean, think

57:00

about too. I

57:02

don't want to be a stand and deliver

57:04

character going these kids, but

57:07

you think about it. Reality

57:09

television can make this profound impact

57:11

on the mind of younger viewers especially.

57:13

Are we, for instance, teaching

57:16

human beings to dehumanize

57:19

other folks just because you see them on a

57:21

screen. Are we teaching audiences to prize

57:23

competition over collaboration, to

57:26

value image and appearance over merit

57:28

and ability. Are we, as

57:31

is so often alleged, dumbing

57:33

down our species. Because I can guarantee

57:35

you a lot of I don't know about you guys, but

57:37

a lot of my friends who don't live in the US

57:40

immediately think of the worst

57:42

of reality television when they think of the

57:44

average US resident. Yeah,

57:46

I just on that on that competition angle.

57:48

The only the only extra

57:51

thing I would put in there is that some British competition

57:54

shows such as The Great

57:56

British Baking Show, do you actually

57:59

love foster the collaborative

58:01

effort thing, kindness, gentleness,

58:05

helping your fellow human

58:07

beings. I love it. Great British

58:09

bake Off Show is the Baking Show is the

58:11

best? Yeah, And that one small thing makes

58:13

it a completely different experience, and

58:16

the takeaway, the emotional takeaway

58:18

from the show is massively

58:21

varied from something you'd get where

58:24

you know it's one one takes all, and

58:26

and just because it's one takes all, we all

58:28

have to be at each other's backs

58:30

with knives and there's still a winner. The

58:33

Great British Baking Show has a winner. But

58:35

at the end, all of the other competitors

58:38

come back and they have a picnic on

58:40

the heath you know where the tent was

58:43

was pitched where they do

58:45

the tent. You know that that's what the whole thing takes place inside

58:47

this massive tent and everyone says

58:49

how much they love that person, how much they're

58:51

so happy for them and they deserve it, and you

58:54

know, I wish it would have been me, but if it

58:56

wasn't gonna be me, I'm glad it was whomever.

58:58

There's this general, genuine

59:00

exactly yeah, there's this genuine

59:03

um sense of of love

59:05

in that show. And I'm sorry I'm gushing

59:07

about great because it's it's coming back. By the way, there's

59:10

a new season I think starting this Friday

59:12

or today, which we record this

59:14

this episode. This whole thing has been a plug for

59:16

the Great British Making Show. So

59:21

uh, you know, I really appreciate bringing

59:23

up that point, Matt, because there's there's another

59:25

example that's also in the world of reality

59:27

TV cooking that I love to point

59:29

to when people ask about the power of producers,

59:32

and that is, watch watch

59:34

Gordon Ramsey in a US

59:36

produced cooking show, watch his behavior,

59:39

watch the character he portrays, and then

59:41

watch him on a British show where

59:43

he's much much

59:45

less abrasive unless

59:48

it's Kitchen Nightmares, which was a British show to

59:50

start, and he is yelling at these people, but they all deserve

59:52

it because they're detestable people. And

59:54

the kitchen Kitchen Nightmares,

59:57

I don't know if there's British in US versions,

1:00:00

think there is, but there is the British

1:00:02

one. He he

1:00:04

is helping people. It seemed like he

1:00:07

still shames them to make them realize

1:00:09

the air of their ways. But I'm

1:00:11

telling you the character that he plays

1:00:15

is different, vastly different.

1:00:17

I tell you you very well.

1:00:19

Maybe right, but I do remember having BBC

1:00:22

America back when I had cable

1:00:24

back in the day I got obsessed with kitchen nightmares,

1:00:26

and it was definitely the British version, and

1:00:28

he he maybe it wasn't quite as over

1:00:30

the top of a caricature of himself, but

1:00:33

he was still very no nonsense and

1:00:35

doesn't take any crap and and would put

1:00:37

people in their places very very quickly.

1:00:40

Yeah. My argument is that that becomes

1:00:42

radicalized or accelerated

1:00:45

exacerbated in the US

1:00:48

productions. But

1:00:50

but I think you know what we're skirting around

1:00:52

here is uh, the hill

1:00:55

that I've chosen to die on, which is the original

1:00:57

Iron Chef, is awesome. I

1:00:59

don't care if it's fake. Its hands

1:01:02

down, you are correct sir. Can

1:01:04

we talk about the fact that the guy that plays the chairman

1:01:07

in the American Iron Chef was

1:01:09

in the Double Dragon movie. I

1:01:11

swear to god, I didn't know that he claims to be

1:01:14

the descendant of the original chairman. I

1:01:16

didn't know any of that was isn't

1:01:19

that the wasn't that the Dan Show?

1:01:22

That Dan Harmon Show? Maybe

1:01:25

maybe so? Yeah, but I had no idea.

1:01:27

I was fooled. There's uh an honorable

1:01:30

mention to the very

1:01:32

brief original

1:01:35

US reboot, which had William Shatner

1:01:37

as the chairman uh and

1:01:40

added Iron Chef America. I've

1:01:42

got to watch that anyway, if you're bored on YouTube,

1:01:45

check it out. Telling Benson to uh,

1:01:47

So, let's think about this idea of the competition.

1:01:50

There's stuff to unpack here. So reality

1:01:52

television promotes this

1:01:54

belief that competition is

1:01:57

the key to success, and in

1:01:59

doing it so it's it's kind of pre

1:02:01

programming some assumptions of capitalist

1:02:04

economy. I'm not saying that

1:02:06

that stuff is inherently evil, but

1:02:08

I'm saying subliminally

1:02:12

seeding people that incepting

1:02:14

them, especially when they're at a young age, is

1:02:16

maybe not the most uh well,

1:02:19

certainly not the most ethical thing, right. Uh.

1:02:22

And whether we're talking about it's a

1:02:24

survivor winning millions

1:02:27

of dollars or someone on

1:02:29

who wants to marry a multimillionaire

1:02:31

or whatever getting a husband.

1:02:34

These TV shows reinforced

1:02:37

the idea that your life as well

1:02:39

is only a competition. Like you

1:02:41

said, Matt, people can only succeed

1:02:44

by stabbing one another in the back.

1:02:46

And look, we have you know, we

1:02:49

we have a all worked in

1:02:51

a corporate structure before. We know that.

1:02:54

We know that to a degree rewards

1:02:56

betrayal and it rewards people

1:02:59

being horrible people. Uh,

1:03:01

but that doesn't mean there's not an alternative.

1:03:04

So I think the biggest thing and the most

1:03:06

damaging thing for a lot of children watching

1:03:09

is this implicit argument

1:03:11

that an image is more

1:03:13

important than skill. Right that you

1:03:16

don't like, you don't have to bother

1:03:19

uh doing the work.

1:03:21

You don't have to bother practice, you don't have to bother getting

1:03:24

expertise. You just need someone

1:03:27

else to take care of that backstage, and

1:03:29

then you can reap the rewards. That's

1:03:31

why a contestant with like a cool backstory

1:03:34

or quote unquote personality, they

1:03:36

do or say controversial stuff, they'll

1:03:38

often win at least a

1:03:40

certain level of a competition over

1:03:42

someone who might be like a

1:03:44

better singer, But they're just they're

1:03:47

they're just like you know, regular Jane

1:03:49

or John uh last

1:03:52

name, and they have a beautiful voice,

1:03:55

but they don't have they don't

1:03:57

have that that sizzle. They don't have something

1:03:59

for the audience to aspire toward or

1:04:01

look down upon. They're too

1:04:03

normal. And this I think

1:04:06

that's one of the biggest dangers of reality

1:04:08

TV because calling it that, like, think

1:04:10

about how powerful the language is. Calling

1:04:12

this reality TV does not just

1:04:15

mislead viewers to

1:04:17

assume what they're seeing is real. It

1:04:19

also pulls a bait and switch, and

1:04:21

a brilliant evil bait

1:04:24

and switch. Calling this stuff

1:04:26

suggest reality suggests

1:04:28

that we, as the creators,

1:04:31

are showing you society.

1:04:33

What's that old argument, we're holding up a mirror,

1:04:35

We're just we're replicating what's happening

1:04:37

now. But are they

1:04:39

really are they showing us a real society

1:04:42

or they showing you what people

1:04:44

in power want you to

1:04:47

think society should be? Like,

1:04:49

are they telling you how they are

1:04:51

comfortable with society working

1:04:54

compete, don't collaborate well? Or

1:04:56

not only that, but it's also putting forth

1:04:58

all of these very surfacing commercial

1:05:01

kind of ideals and these aspirational

1:05:04

in terms of like I want to have that million

1:05:06

dollar home. I want to have these

1:05:09

products. I want to live this lifestyle. And

1:05:11

it's something that forces people to maybe spend

1:05:13

money on Gucci belt bags

1:05:15

they can't really afford because they want to look

1:05:18

like a Kardashian. You know it is

1:05:20

it is in the best interest of the economy

1:05:23

and of those in power making lots

1:05:25

of money for these shows to promote

1:05:28

those kind of ideals and not

1:05:30

this the ones that the British shows promote about

1:05:32

helping your neighbor and collaborating

1:05:35

and working together to make society

1:05:38

better for everyone, because there are people

1:05:40

with a vested interests in society not being

1:05:42

better for everyone. Compete, don't collaborate,

1:05:46

appear to be like

1:05:48

the way you look is more important

1:05:51

than who you are, and

1:05:53

people who have talent are

1:05:56

irrelevant unless they

1:05:58

look good doing it. This

1:06:00

is this is very dangerous stuff. Well,

1:06:03

and that devetails right into

1:06:05

two things I just want to talk about. We're

1:06:07

talking about this being a cultural danger.

1:06:10

I think this is more of a personal

1:06:13

danger because, and this

1:06:15

is just my opinion, I think reality

1:06:17

television normalized the concept

1:06:20

of needing a camera for

1:06:22

mundane things to be recorded,

1:06:25

which then went directly into social

1:06:27

media, which then created

1:06:29

within ourselves, each of us, the

1:06:31

belief that it is worth taking

1:06:34

a picture of the food you're about to take

1:06:36

and then sharing it with everyone, and and

1:06:38

placing your hopes on

1:06:41

the possibility that somebody else might

1:06:43

tell you that that was a great thing.

1:06:46

Well, social media just made us all reality

1:06:48

stars, made in our own minds,

1:06:50

in our own minds math, you know what I mean. Yeah,

1:06:53

that was my big end review. I'm glad we're on the

1:06:55

same page. That's that's

1:06:58

what happened. No, No, you're right, that's the big

1:07:00

um God, I know, I would hate

1:07:02

to feel like we're doing anything

1:07:04

other than collaborating like this is. That's

1:07:07

that's the big point, you know, because reality

1:07:10

TV would have began Begaan when

1:07:12

cameras were more expensive, right, and

1:07:14

the average person probably wouldn't afford

1:07:17

wouldn't be able to afford a

1:07:19

camera that could film moving pictures.

1:07:22

And and now everyone

1:07:25

is is told

1:07:28

you should be a reality

1:07:30

TV star, like you should

1:07:33

be quote unquote on camera

1:07:35

or on air all the time.

1:07:37

This goes into the social dilemma. The

1:07:40

stuff that documentary explores, the dopamine

1:07:43

rush, the new neurochemistry at

1:07:45

play. But you know, very

1:07:47

soon, I mean, we're we're already

1:07:49

past the point right of no return. Very

1:07:52

soon. It is going to be uncommon

1:07:55

for someone growing up in

1:07:57

the age of information flood and a big

1:08:00

what is media to not have some

1:08:02

kind of nearly seven

1:08:06

data stream information about

1:08:09

them. And then it will become recursive,

1:08:13

increasingly, the concept of

1:08:16

perception and creation

1:08:18

and what is or is not the real uh,

1:08:21

It becomes an argument, It becomes a metaphor

1:08:23

of two mirrors facing

1:08:25

each other with nothing between

1:08:28

them, reflecting only themselves into

1:08:30

infinity. And that's I don't know about

1:08:32

you. That's not a world I want to live in. No,

1:08:34

no, thank you, no thank you. That's infinite

1:08:37

black mirror. And that sounds awful to

1:08:40

say. It's the same as the echo chamber effect we talked

1:08:42

about on a recent news episode

1:08:44

when we're talking about Facebook

1:08:46

and polarization of people's

1:08:49

opinions, because we're all just looking at ourselves.

1:08:51

We're not looking at others, we're not listening

1:08:53

to other perspectives. Were so

1:08:56

self centered, both

1:08:58

ideologically and aesthetically,

1:09:01

that we just who cares what anyone else?

1:09:04

I mean, but we do look at others, but we only

1:09:06

look at it through the mirror and the lens of ourselves,

1:09:08

and why am I not that

1:09:11

pretty? Why am I not that um,

1:09:13

you know, rich or whatever. We're not thinking

1:09:15

about those people as people. They just represent

1:09:18

something that we want for ourselves. Well,

1:09:20

I think in the end it's

1:09:23

it's an insidious thing. But I

1:09:25

don't think it's I I personally

1:09:28

don't think it's like they some specific

1:09:30

they that wants us to be this way.

1:09:33

Besides just overall

1:09:36

consumerism and and large,

1:09:39

um, maybe it is just

1:09:41

capitalism with a giant see that

1:09:43

anyone who benefits from selling goods

1:09:46

and services, um, and

1:09:49

you know, massive global economies. Maybe it's

1:09:51

just the global economy that we could blame

1:09:53

for it. Where where they need they

1:09:55

need us to be thinking about things

1:09:58

and stuff that we can buy and when

1:10:00

we're sharing all that stuff. It's no there's

1:10:03

no secret that there are ads.

1:10:06

If you're scrolling through Instagram or whatever you're using,

1:10:08

there's an ad every three or four spaces

1:10:10

that you're scrolling past. And that is very

1:10:13

I mean, there's a reason for that,

1:10:16

and it's because you're consuming and consuming, consuming,

1:10:18

and there's another thing that you can consume, and it's so easy

1:10:20

you just click on it. And I think the

1:10:22

real danger here it's there's a

1:10:24

the common phrase of dumbing down society,

1:10:27

right that we and that is to an

1:10:29

extent correct. But I think the

1:10:31

biggest thing is that it's decreasing mindfulness

1:10:34

and self awareness and

1:10:36

and and the awareness of

1:10:38

others. It's kind of what you're hitting on their guys.

1:10:41

It's just I think that's the danger, and

1:10:43

that's the real insidious thing. And

1:10:46

a lot of the people that are

1:10:48

creating this stuff, the reality television and all

1:10:50

these things that come together, they don't even realize that

1:10:52

they're working, you know, towards that end

1:10:55

goal. They're just as we outlined

1:10:57

earlier, they're doing all of these they're

1:10:59

doing it for all the reasons that we outlined, right.

1:11:02

Yeah, it's the it's not look,

1:11:04

it's not like it's not as if there

1:11:07

is some sort of shadowy couball

1:11:10

of people who secretly, through a series

1:11:12

of front organizations, own the

1:11:15

entirety of media and want everybody

1:11:17

to turn into an increasingly your person.

1:11:20

It's it's instead, it's a matter

1:11:22

of how much profit can we make, how

1:11:25

quickly can we make it? Consequences

1:11:27

be damned, And that's like that's I

1:11:30

know, that's maybe a harsh,

1:11:32

harsh way to say it, but also

1:11:34

we have to be we

1:11:37

have to be very clear with this. We're

1:11:39

not saying that the people who

1:11:41

are making reality TV or

1:11:44

participating in it are somehow

1:11:46

across the board terrible, terrible

1:11:49

people. We're also we're also

1:11:51

not accusing anybody in the production

1:11:53

of reality TV of being some

1:11:57

super brilliant, evil mastermind

1:12:00

and purposefully driving

1:12:03

us away from the contemplation

1:12:05

of reality off the screen. We're

1:12:07

saying, that's what happened. This is again, again,

1:12:10

again, again, again, this is Mickey

1:12:12

Mouse Sorcerers Apprentice Fantasia.

1:12:15

We automated some brooms, the

1:12:17

brooms, automated more brooms, and

1:12:19

now the house is flooding and

1:12:22

there's not an easy way

1:12:24

back. That is just clear. But

1:12:26

but they're also maybe positive impacts of

1:12:28

reality TV. People really do win

1:12:31

millions of dollars, People maybe

1:12:33

have really found genuine

1:12:36

romantic love, people's lives

1:12:38

may have been changed for the better. But

1:12:41

I mean, what do you think, Like I I was

1:12:43

thinking of positive examples, and I can only

1:12:46

they're outweighed by the negatives. I

1:12:48

am now aware of what an ice road trucker is

1:12:50

Okay, I didn't know that was a potential job

1:12:53

route for anybody, but now I know it's

1:12:55

there. There are also shows like Queer

1:12:57

Eye, for example, like that is

1:13:00

a very important way of I

1:13:02

don't know, normalizing a

1:13:04

lifestyle in a in a type of people that some

1:13:06

people in Middle America never see or

1:13:08

some people representation exactly.

1:13:11

And I think that's important. And Queer I especially

1:13:13

the new season is much more like

1:13:15

that great British Baking show style

1:13:18

of programming where they're hair

1:13:20

to help people. They are very

1:13:22

it's all about inclusivity and about making

1:13:24

people feel good about themselves and empowering

1:13:26

people, you know. Um. But again

1:13:29

it's also it really is important in

1:13:31

its representation of the gay

1:13:34

and queer community in places that

1:13:36

just don't see that and maybe have a negative

1:13:39

idea of what that means. And this

1:13:41

can kind of normalize that in a very

1:13:43

important way. Um. And also

1:13:45

it's something that kids grow up seeing and it

1:13:47

makes them feel if they end up deciding

1:13:49

that that's how they feel in terms of

1:13:51

their how they identify, it gives

1:13:54

them something that they've seen since

1:13:56

they were little that lets them know that

1:13:58

they're you know, not alone. No one has

1:14:00

to struggle with those kinds of things anymore, the idea

1:14:02

of coming out because you have all these

1:14:04

stories on on shows like that. So

1:14:06

I think that's that's a that's a positive agreed.

1:14:09

So a question we end

1:14:11

on today is, uh,

1:14:14

we we've outlined the dangers,

1:14:17

the potential, the trends, the history, the

1:14:19

present, the past and the future and

1:14:22

what we think about it. But as

1:14:24

always the most important part is to

1:14:26

hear what you think about it. Specifically,

1:14:30

you what are the positive impacts

1:14:32

of reality TV? Are they

1:14:35

outweighed by the

1:14:38

negative? What do you what

1:14:40

do you feel when you

1:14:42

are watching these what reactions

1:14:44

are inspired in

1:14:47

your mind? What do you think the future of

1:14:49

reality television will be? Uh?

1:14:51

Speaking for myself here, I I'd love to hear

1:14:53

your take. I I also want to know if we're going to live

1:14:56

in a dystopian world where having

1:14:58

a twenty four seven and stream

1:15:01

somehow curated of your life is

1:15:03

as important as having a social Security

1:15:06

number or something like. I think we're already

1:15:09

curating our lives through social media

1:15:11

right in one degree or another. We're

1:15:13

all becoming a brand. So

1:15:16

tell us how far you think it'll go. You can

1:15:18

find us on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter,

1:15:21

We're you can find us

1:15:23

on our social media sites, right, uh,

1:15:26

we recommend here's where it gets crazy. If you're

1:15:28

still on Facebook, you can see

1:15:30

our favorite part of the show, our fellow

1:15:32

listeners. You can also find us if

1:15:34

you wish as individuals. Yeah,

1:15:37

I'm on Instagram at how Now, Noel Brown,

1:15:39

I am met Frederick Underscore.

1:15:43

You can find me at Ben Bulling HSW

1:15:45

on Twitter. You can also find me at Ben Bulling

1:15:48

on Instagram. And if

1:15:51

you think social media is

1:15:53

not your like cup of hammers or your bag

1:15:55

of badgers, I don't know what a cop

1:15:58

It defends the size of the cup. This

1:16:00

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an episode for the first time, and it was

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