0:00

From UFOs to psychic powers

0:02

and government conspiracies. History

0:04

is riddled with unexplained events. You

0:07

can turn back now or learn

0:09

the stuff they don't want you to know. A

0:12

production of I Heart Gradios How

0:14

Stuff Works. Welcome

0:24

back to the show. My name is Matt, my name is

0:27

they call me Ben. We are joined as always

0:29

with our super producer Paul, Mission controlled

0:31

dec and most importantly, you are you.

0:33

You are here and that makes this

0:35

stuff they don't want you to know. How

0:38

are you doing? Guys? Everybody got their kidneys,

0:40

their important bits still attached within or

0:43

adjacent to them. God, I hope so as

0:45

far as I can tell, you know, I really just kind

0:47

of push in and I feel like it's there.

0:50

Did you all ever have your appendix

0:52

taken out or your tonsils removed? I

0:54

have never had any form of invasive surgery

0:56

at all, and it frankly terrifies

0:59

me. Same actually no wisdom

1:01

teeth. I've been putting

1:03

that off. Actually they've told me for years that I

1:05

need to get them out. I haven't done it yet because

1:07

it freaks me out. I think

1:09

maybe the emotional distress beforehand

1:12

and going right in is is probably worse

1:14

thing. Yeah, just suck it up and be a

1:16

man and do it. Oh, I don't know, it's psych it up.

1:19

Maybe you'll feel better, maybe not. It's one of those

1:21

things you can put off until your mouth starts hurt. Any you've

1:24

you've had like at least one thing right

1:26

where you've had to go under, do you recall

1:29

it, Like? What was it like? Was that experience like

1:32

for me? Great? Honestly,

1:35

honestly, I've had I've had a number

1:38

of operations

1:41

that were not related to one another, and

1:44

in each case things went

1:46

swimmingly. And you

1:48

know, you lose time you go under. You wake

1:50

up and you're fine, or

1:52

you feel fine, you're probably really high.

1:55

So I remember when I had my wisdom

1:58

teeth taken out. I cannot remember which

2:01

year this was, but it was definitely in

2:03

the US, after the country was formed,

2:06

and and uh, I thought

2:08

I was I thought I was fine, And I didn't

2:10

understand why you can't. You're

2:12

not allowed to know, operate a heavy machinery,

2:15

drive a car, flat helicopter, whatever your

2:17

method of transportation is. And so I thought

2:20

it was fine until I walked out of the dentist office

2:22

and then stumbled and sat on the steps and thought

2:25

I'm gonna be here for a while to

2:27

get a ride though you just you just do

2:30

You didn't go for that, No, I I lied about

2:32

it.

2:34

But it is a moment of being conscious,

2:37

then you're not aware of anything,

2:39

and then you come back all of a sudden, Well there's a fade.

2:42

I think you know, the feeling

2:44

of falling asleep, but it's a precipitous

2:46

drop off, so it feels like maybe

2:48

you're about to doze, and then

2:50

you wake up usually now.

2:53

Interestingly enough, there are

2:55

some genetic markers that show anesthesia

2:58

affects people in markedly,

3:01

markedly different ways. For

3:03

example, people who have the

3:05

redhead gene, you and I for

3:07

exampia. Uh, we

3:10

we have the potential to require

3:13

more anesthesia than the average person.

3:16

But I don't know, I don't know what

3:18

what the correlation is there. Do you

3:21

have to be full redhead or do you have to be

3:23

what South Park we call a day walker? If

3:25

you guys remember that, so

3:28

I am very I'm very glad to hear that

3:31

you guys have not had terrible surgical

3:33

experiences, and luckily

3:36

in this country, at least in the United

3:38

States, for those who can afford to pay

3:40

the tab the

3:42

surgery or the surgical environment

3:45

rather is not as fatal as

3:47

at once. What's and it used to be an absolute

3:49

abatois, But we want to hear

3:51

your weirdest, uh, your

3:54

weirdest surgery experiences. When we start

3:56

that way, you can pause the podcast

3:58

at any point and call us the directly.

4:00

We are one eight three three s

4:02

T D W y t K.

4:05

Leave a message. You get three minutes. If you

4:07

can't fit it in, then that amount of time just to call

4:10

back. And as always,

4:12

let us know if you do not want this to be on

4:14

air, If this is just for us a mission control,

4:17

that's fine, just be very clear about

4:19

that. So we are talking about

4:21

surgery today. We are talking

4:23

about one of the most controversial

4:26

types of surgery, which is the

4:29

replacement or transplant of organs,

4:32

the organ trade, the

4:35

organ trail, I think is the worst joke

4:37

we made in a previous episode

4:39

about this. Here here's the problem.

4:41

Until we as a species learn how to

4:44

reliably grow new organs from

4:46

scratch, millions of people

4:48

across the planet are dying

4:51

and are going to die as they

4:53

wait for viable replacement organs

4:55

and donors. At least it is according

4:58

to the official story into a show.

5:00

We're exploring a dark corner of

5:02

an already very murky trade,

5:05

the semi legal or completely illegal

5:07

industry, known to some as the red

5:10

market. And we we have some previous

5:12

stuff on this the red Market. We

5:15

got the title from this, this fantastic

5:17

book that looks at the semi legal and illegal

5:20

oregan trade. The red market

5:23

is not is not

5:25

related to legitimate

5:27

organ transplant or donation processes.

5:30

The way the legit stuff works in most

5:32

countries is the following process.

5:35

Somebody opts in to

5:37

donate an organ, usually upon their

5:39

death. If you're in the US and you get a driver's

5:42

license, you get that question, do you agree

5:44

to be an organ donor? In some states you

5:46

get a discount if you agree to be an organ

5:48

donor? Right, but after,

5:51

let's say something tragic happens when dies

5:53

in a car accident, right or they have a they

5:55

have a heart attack. Oh, we should mention that

5:57

too many people have the miskans

6:00

sception that if you sign up to be an organ

6:02

donor on your driver's

6:04

license, it only applies to auto accidents.

6:06

It does not you go down for any

6:08

reason. Uh, and you've got viable

6:10

organs boom boom boom there as long as you

6:12

didn't explode or die of you know, poison

6:15

or a terrible disease. I don't know why

6:17

people would think that that's interesting. Um, yeah, I

6:19

always assumed it was. You know, for all intents and purposes,

6:21

these organs belong to the people. It's

6:23

very strange, you know, with the idea that

6:26

someone someone would say, well, my

6:28

kidneys are still going to be mine because

6:31

I tripped and fell or something

6:33

like that. It's strange. But maybe

6:35

it's a comforting thing because our organs

6:37

are very personal parts of ourselves

6:40

and our identities. But this

6:42

also is an important point. Today's

6:44

topic is about a system of government that does not

6:46

have such safeguards in place. We get to

6:49

check a box on a card that says

6:51

we choose to donate our organs.

6:53

That is not the case with today's episode. It's certainly

6:56

more complicated than that. Yeah, in some cases,

6:58

just just for a full clid text here. In some

7:00

cases there are countries that will

7:02

require you to opt out of

7:06

being an organ donor. With

7:08

some European countries recently did that. I have no

7:10

problem with that. Well, it's a it's a psychological

7:12

move because it massively increases

7:14

the number of people who become organ

7:17

donors, not because of informed

7:19

consent. It's because they didn't

7:21

read the entire thing, which

7:24

is weird. I can't think of any reason why you wouldn't want

7:26

to be an organ donor. For most people, it's religious.

7:29

Yeah, for most people it's religious, or you

7:32

know, it goes into the method

7:34

of burial or uh,

7:36

you know what's cremation creation,

7:39

perhaps burial, let's sea

7:41

or you know, you can't be embalmed

7:44

things like that. It's it's along the same

7:46

list. The Red Market,

7:49

however, is in news much

7:51

more recently now. You can

7:53

even you you've probably seen this popping

7:56

up in your news feed whatever, your news

7:58

feed of choices today while we're recording

8:00

this. Yes, yes, it was on the front

8:02

page of Reddit today. As we go

8:04

in, this story takes

8:07

us to the red market in the

8:09

People's Republic of China. So

8:12

here are the facts about China's official

8:15

oregan donation system.

8:18

Yeah, they certainly have one of the largest transplant

8:20

programs in the entire world, and a lot

8:23

of that is just a factor of the number of human

8:25

beings that exist within China. But

8:27

we do have some numbers about estimates that come

8:29

officially from the Chinese government, and

8:31

these go back to two thousand four, this

8:34

first one, right in two thousand four, they

8:36

estimated that over thirteen thousand transplants

8:38

were performed, and then in two thousand

8:41

six they estimated that as many as twenty

8:43

thousand transplants had been performed.

8:46

And remember those are official estimates

8:48

from the government, and though, and

8:50

that's way back in two thousand four, two thousand

8:52

six, and you can only imagine that as population

8:55

has grown over time, those numbers have risen

8:57

tremendously. Well, you can see, you can see

8:59

it almost bubbles across two years,

9:01

even officially. And that's that's something else. You

9:03

would think, with so many people

9:06

waiting in line for an organ, that

9:09

the waiting time would

9:11

would be a matter of years, right, and you're sort

9:13

of racing the clock of your body's decay

9:15

and the availability

9:18

of an organ donor of some sort. But

9:21

here's the thing. The waiting time for an organ transplant

9:23

in China is cartoonishly low.

9:26

It is by far the lowest

9:28

amount of waiting time on the planet.

9:30

As often organ

9:33

tourists o r g A

9:35

and tourist, which is a thing reported

9:37

receiving kidney transplants within days

9:40

of arriving in the country. Days You

9:42

can tell people what organ uh

9:45

what oregan tourists are just simple

9:48

as it is, traveling to another country

9:50

to obtain an organ that you can't because

9:52

you're on a waiting list perhaps in your own country,

9:54

or it would cost too much, there was some preventive

9:56

reason that you cannot get an organ in your

9:58

home country. Right, it's this city. It's

10:00

it's a subset of medical

10:03

tourism because the United States

10:05

has is home to quite a few medical

10:08

tours who are going out of necessity.

10:10

You know this, This country has great specialized

10:12

health care for those who can afford it, but

10:14

an operation that may cost tens

10:17

of thousands of dollars here may

10:19

cost you know, much less

10:22

just in Canada or Mexico. So,

10:25

I mean, this problem is not reported

10:28

as much as it should be in the US

10:31

because I think it gets wrapped up in uh

10:33

politicized conversations, especially

10:36

during election cycles. And we're

10:38

sort of always in an election cycle

10:40

now. But can you imagine

10:43

you need a kidney You can wait what three

10:45

to five years maybe more here in

10:47

the US, or you can

10:49

fly to China pay

10:51

pay more, maybe than you would for the

10:54

kidney itself, but

10:57

you know, within a week or two your your

11:00

parts have been replaced, like the six million dollar

11:02

man. There was a report produced

11:04

by these researchers, David Maddison

11:06

David Kilgore, which cited the

11:09

China International Transplantation

11:12

Assistance Center as saying,

11:15

again this is the actual official

11:17

source quote, it may only take one

11:19

week to find the suitable donor, the

11:21

maximum time being one month. WHOA

11:25

again, let's compare that to other countries.

11:28

Okay, So to do that, we

11:30

have to look at the median waiting times for

11:32

an organ transplantation UH

11:34

in somewhere like Australia, which is, for

11:36

example, six months to four

11:39

years. Canada you're looking at six years,

11:41

that says eleven and in the UK

11:44

it's three years. China UM

11:47

swears up and down that it sticks

11:49

to these international standards. These medical

11:51

standards require organ donations to be done by

11:53

consent and without any

11:56

UM users financial charges. And

11:58

on the surface, that's seems legit, I guess

12:01

right, but there's a lot more

12:03

at play here. On the first glance, people are saving

12:05

lives. It's hard to argue that that's a

12:07

bad thing. But let's let's

12:09

let's slow our role a little bit real quick, and let's

12:12

look at where this extraordinary

12:14

speed comes from. It ain't for free, right

12:18

right, And I love that you're pointing out the

12:20

the idea of informed consent

12:22

and not having financial charges.

12:25

Longtime listeners will remember we

12:27

looked at the uh just

12:30

repugnant practice of some

12:33

some unethical organ procurers

12:35

in the Indian subcontinent where

12:37

they'll pay somebody what the equivalent of a

12:40

couple hundred bucks to take their kidney,

12:42

and then they'll jack up the price

12:44

the thousands and thousands. You can

12:46

see entire villages of people who

12:49

all have the same identical scar on their

12:51

left or right side. So if you

12:53

find someone who is in dire financial straits

12:55

and you offer them a little bit of cash, it's

12:58

not really informed scent. And

13:00

as you said, there is a price to this extraordinary

13:03

speed. First, as as you pointed

13:05

out, Matt, the official numbers from the government

13:07

do not match with the estimates from

13:09

international organizations. A

13:12

study in the Journal Clinical Transplantation

13:14

said that only four percent

13:17

of oregan transplant experts believed

13:19

procurement processes in China

13:21

were ethically sound, so they asked

13:24

do you think the government

13:26

is telling you the truth about this? Do you think they're

13:28

on the up and up? And four

13:31

percent of people said yeah, sure, I

13:33

don't know. I wonder if

13:35

that this is just my It

13:37

was like it's like weird skeptical anti skeptical

13:40

thing where it's like, I wonder how many of those people

13:42

were just like why there's no way for me to tell

13:44

so I can't say yes. Well, I

13:46

mean it goes back to that old expression

13:49

about you know products. For example, you can

13:51

have something fast, you can have something cheap, you're

13:53

gonna have something good. You can have two of

13:55

them at the same time, but you definitely can't have all three

13:57

of them at the same time. And this Chinese system

13:59

see us to purport that you get all three. And

14:02

that is when you're being sold of a bill of goods

14:04

typically, right. I always wonder where that

14:07

statement comes from, always think about that earlier.

14:09

I haven't looked it up yet, but when someone sold

14:11

a bill of goods, what does that mean? Well, this has come

14:13

up before and I feel like we found out the answer, But now

14:16

I think I think what it had to do with like a bill of goods

14:18

is like a shipping list of like stuff that

14:20

would be in the hull of a ship. And I think sometimes

14:22

if you're sold a bill of goods, it implies

14:24

that you're being sold the promise of something, but not the

14:26

thing itself. There we go, well, put, okay, that

14:29

makes sense. So there's

14:31

another factor here. The World

14:34

Health Organization or WHO, which

14:36

is again the coolest initialism

14:38

out there, has figures suggesting that around

14:41

ten percent of transplants

14:43

in this country occurred via transplant

14:46

tourism in at least in

14:48

two thousand and five, and China

14:50

was the leading destination for

14:52

patients out of all the other countries

14:55

in the world. Second, when health

14:57

officials in China launched

14:59

a now shoal donation system in two thousand

15:01

and nine, the government itself reported

15:04

that two thirds of organ donors

15:07

could be traced to one demographic

15:09

and one demographic alone prisoners

15:12

who were executed in the

15:14

Chinese incarceration system. And that's the official

15:17

number. That's the official number. It's a

15:19

little bit north of sixty. And

15:22

we must keep in mind again international

15:25

experts have been claiming these numbers

15:27

are ginned up in lobald for

15:30

years. The authorities had previously

15:32

acknowledged that Cornea's kidneys and

15:34

other body parts come from criminals and

15:36

that they've been successfully transplanted.

15:38

But this was the first official acknowledgement

15:41

of the extent of this practice.

15:43

When they said, oh, well, we said sometimes

15:45

in the nineteen seventies, they didn't

15:48

admit it in the seven It was happening in the seventies

15:50

of but it wasn't admitted to uh, they said, when

15:52

we said sometimes, we meant two thirds

15:54

at the time, which is still not all the time.

15:56

So it's sometimes. But if when you're saying

15:58

two thirds of even the official numbers

16:00

that are low balled, you're talking thousands of

16:03

people. And here's why they created the

16:05

system. They were hoping that this new plan

16:07

would tackle the thriving black

16:10

market in body parts and

16:12

encourage voluntary donation,

16:14

which you know, as we mentioned it, it

16:17

remains far below demand in

16:19

the country, partially due to

16:21

social taboos and mores and partially

16:24

due to some religious reasons. Interesting,

16:26

so it is largely designed

16:28

for this medical tourism.

16:30

It's this system is officially

16:34

supposed to encourage more

16:36

people to be donors, but

16:38

the system, the way it functions, yes, does

16:41

appear it is

16:43

very it's a very long reach.

16:46

It's a walk around a long block to

16:49

say that this is not purposely designed

16:51

for Oregon tourism. We're gonna get

16:53

deeper into the deeds behind that. Yeah,

16:56

unfortunately, we will as strap in, folks,

16:59

hold your kidneys, your heart, your corny, as

17:01

your liver close, because we're going

17:03

in the state. Newspaper China

17:05

Daily said about one million people needed

17:07

transplants each year, but only one

17:10

received them, and at the time,

17:13

the Vice Minister for Health in China, Huang

17:15

Jifu said, transplants,

17:17

this is a quote. Transplants should

17:19

not be a privilege for the rich. And

17:23

uh, he said that there

17:25

were these you know, whenever a condemned to prisoner was

17:27

going to be donating their organ there

17:29

was written consent that was required

17:31

to be taken from them or or acquired

17:34

by from them. And he added

17:36

that they were definitely

17:39

not a proper source for organ transplants.

17:42

So that's interesting. Uh, the the

17:44

vice Minister for Health in China saying that

17:48

that the prisoners condemned to death

17:50

prisoners were not a proper

17:52

source for organ transplants. He also

17:54

ended up telling a newspaper outlet

17:57

or you know, a media outlet China Daily that

17:59

somehow spitals actually ignored the rules

18:02

because of the high profits that they could acquire

18:04

by doing things a different way, right,

18:07

and the newspaper said that there were experts. Experts

18:09

they're the estimated that more than sixty percent

18:12

of donors were actually criminals

18:14

who had received the death penalty. So again the

18:16

two thirds number of pops up in a couple of

18:18

different sources. What's interesting is

18:20

that years earlier, the government

18:22

ruled the organs from executed

18:24

prisoners would only be given to family

18:27

members, and that living donors

18:29

could only give body parts to relatives

18:31

or to those with whom they shared A quote

18:34

emotional connection that sounds

18:36

like, well, think about like you have a you

18:38

have a relative or something that

18:42

well this is let me let me compare it this way.

18:44

You have an in law maybe and

18:47

you, unlike all the stereotypical jokes,

18:49

you love your father in law, your mother in law, and

18:52

you're a donor match. So you say I want to give them my kidney,

18:54

and they say you're not They're not kind, they're not really

18:56

a biological family members. You can you

18:58

can claim that you can you get to define the

19:01

emotional connection yeah, yeah, I would

19:03

be able to. I am going to give ban my

19:05

kidney because I love him. Thank you,

19:07

thank you, and uh that's that's

19:09

true. And all you have a you have a good heart. I

19:12

don't know where you got if you can't have it, though, I don't

19:14

want to know. I'm talking about the other one. But

19:17

how are those kidneys doing? Are they okay?

19:19

They're a little I comed them up

19:21

a little bit, road harder put

19:23

away a way. Uh yeah, it's

19:25

it's true. Emotional connection gives

19:28

you some leeway, you know, some ownership

19:30

over where you want your body parts

19:32

to go. In theory, the percentage

19:35

of transplants from living donors has risen

19:37

from fifteen percent two thousand and six to

19:41

in two thousand and nine,

19:43

and it seems to continue ticking

19:46

up, which is a problem.

19:48

According to a professor Chen

19:50

Jong Hwa in the

19:52

Institute of Organ Transplantation at tongues

19:55

You a hospital, only one

19:57

hundred and thirty people on the main land

19:59

of China, which has a population

20:01

of one point three billion again

20:04

had signed up to donate their organs after

20:06

they died. Only one hundred

20:08

and thirty out of more

20:10

than a billion. That's how few people

20:13

that's that's how passionate

20:15

people are about keeping their organs after

20:17

death. And to be fair, though, that was in two thousand

20:20

three, um, fairly early

20:22

on in that process, or at least earlier,

20:24

right, right, So the numbers today

20:26

are kind of tricky. You can find sources

20:29

that will that's

20:31

the thing. It's tough to find official

20:33

sources that will say numbers that transparently.

20:35

So we have to rely upon in

20:38

country experts or people with experience,

20:41

which means that we're also we're

20:43

also possibly reading their agenda,

20:47

which goes, aren't we always though? I

20:49

don't know? Yeah, yeah, maybe maybe,

20:51

maybe you're right. So these

20:54

stories of foreigners traveling

20:56

to China just for organ transplants

20:59

for were rife. They were rumors

21:02

for a long time, but when

21:04

China Daily was reporting on this, they

21:06

added a little bit more fuel to the fire

21:09

and they said that there was an entire industry

21:12

of middlemen who specialized

21:14

in faking documents to evade the

21:16

law. And faking a document could be

21:18

everything from your official

21:21

purpose to China if you want to hide that

21:23

fact, to a fake consent

21:25

form when they say, okay, well you

21:28

know this person just signed

21:30

this document and then they

21:32

said it's fine. They said you're a loved one,

21:35

They said, you have an emotional connection. At

21:37

the time, citizens could pay up to

21:39

two thousand yuan for

21:42

a kidney. That was a

21:44

little under twenty thousand pounds,

21:47

so excessive excess

21:49

of for a kidney in

21:51

the US at

21:53

those prices, right, the US dollars. And

21:57

then we have a new development

21:59

you mentioned earlier. Matt Hauling Jaffou,

22:02

the former minister.

22:05

In February he

22:07

said he was retired. He said that

22:10

from January one, organ

22:12

donation from voluntary civilian organ

22:14

donors has become the only legitimate

22:16

source of transplantation. And

22:20

people interpreted this as

22:22

a ban on the use of organs

22:24

from executed prisoners. So

22:28

no more, yeah, he

22:30

said the he said, it's the only

22:32

legitimate source. Right,

22:34

It's like the pursuit of happiness. Yeah,

22:38

So the piece isn't he the guy that also said that

22:40

it shouldn't be a privilege just for the rich guy.

22:43

So here's the thing. I

22:46

mean, you can say stuff like that all day

22:48

long, and you can try to put safeguards in place,

22:50

but when it comes to something

22:52

so scarce, anything that that you

22:54

know, thrives on scarcity, it's

22:56

always going to become a market like that that favors

22:59

the rich, because that's just how it is.

23:01

That's how people work, that's how money works, and these

23:03

systems work. So it's one thing for him to say

23:05

that, But how can you really, you

23:08

know, put an end to that human

23:10

need of like, well, I have more money, therefore

23:13

I deserve to get better treatment.

23:15

I deserve to get like first in line or whatever

23:17

to live exactly.

23:19

Yeah, I agree, economy is the dominant

23:22

religious paradigm of this

23:24

age. And these are the effects

23:27

that happen when you know you have zealous

23:30

people participating in a religion.

23:32

If you think the economy is not a religion, I would

23:34

love to hear your argument. Why tell me

23:36

why they differ? There you go, that's

23:40

I don't know. You know, I'm not going to say it's a hill I'll die

23:42

on. But we've asked this question before and there

23:45

there aren't that many differences. And this is not

23:47

a ding on religion. It's not ding on economy,

23:49

but the belief that things should

23:52

be determined by these sorts

23:54

of economic systems. But we're

23:57

all playing this guy in a nice game when we say

23:59

that they're different It's sort of like

24:01

the old thing about how ridiculous

24:04

it will look to future historians when

24:06

we think about driving on the inter state. You

24:08

know, we were in these death machines that went in excess

24:11

of eighty miles an hour. How did you not

24:13

hit each other? How did you not kill each other? We

24:15

did all the time, But there

24:17

were lines, We had these, this honor system

24:20

of painted lines. Oh did the lines

24:22

stop? You know? No, you just you kind of agreed

24:25

that these other strangers piloting their

24:27

own death machines would also adhere

24:30

to the honor system of the line. When you put

24:32

it like that, and be really scared to drive because

24:35

nobody follows the honor system. I

24:37

don't know if you guys have been driving around in Atlanta, Holy

24:40

Lord, and you know that same

24:42

idea applies to this. Nobody followed

24:45

this on our system either didn't right,

24:47

the money gets too good, the pieces come together.

24:49

So with just this high level look, we

24:52

can already see some issues the

24:54

official government statements are not

24:56

jibing with statements from NGOs

24:59

and other international institutions.

25:02

We can also see, as you pointed out, all

25:04

the huge economic

25:06

incentive for cheating the system,

25:09

and then There's another question where exactly

25:11

are all these organs coming from? Most

25:14

importantly, what if the government

25:16

of China never stopped

25:19

getting organs from executive

25:21

prisoners. Even

25:23

more disturbingly, what if

25:26

the government of China is no longer

25:28

waiting for these prisoners to die?

25:32

Oh guess what, it's

25:34

time for a sponsor break. After that, monsters,

25:44

here's where it gets crazy. That's

25:46

right, that's right, conspiracy realist, you did

25:48

not misshear us. We are talking

25:50

about on demand executions.

25:53

Rumors about executions for the express

25:55

purposes of harvesting organs have

25:57

dogged the Chinese government for decades.

26:01

Decades and decades back to I

26:04

think the earliest reports are in the nineteen seventies,

26:06

but they existed for a long time on

26:08

the fringe of mainstream debate. This

26:11

recently changed. An independent

26:13

tribunal seated in London was assembled

26:16

to investigate the truth, if any,

26:18

about this countrywide conspiracy

26:20

to execute people and harvest

26:22

their organs. Is called the Independent

26:24

Tribunal Enforced Organ Harvesting

26:27

from Prisoners of Conscious in China,

26:29

and it reached some ugly, ugly conclusions.

26:32

We do have to say this is

26:34

technically an in GEO and non governmental

26:37

organization. That's one of the main objections

26:39

China has with it. So there was an interim judgment

26:42

that was released in December of that

26:44

stated that, beyond a doubt, forced

26:47

oregan harvesting from prisoners

26:49

has taken place quote on a substantial

26:52

scale by state support or approved organizations

26:54

and individuals. And then further um

26:57

noted that the findings were

26:59

indicative of essentially genocide.

27:02

Um though it was not clear enough to make

27:04

a positive ruling. Right,

27:07

And so some people may say genocide,

27:09

guys, isn't that a bit alarmist?

27:12

Let's let's remember what

27:14

genocide is. Genocide is

27:17

the eradication of a large

27:19

group of people, especially

27:21

from a particular ethnic group or

27:24

a nation, or in some cases

27:26

religion of religion. Right, So

27:29

this is don't have any of that here, though, do

27:31

we even? I mean, we don't don't see any of those

27:33

Oh wait, we do, don't we? Which

27:36

one that one of those groups is

27:38

involved? Here? Oh? Yes, yes, that's

27:40

absolutely right. Yeah, I thought you here is in the US.

27:42

No. No, I just meant, like, you know, I mean, it sounds to me like

27:45

they're saying genocide. That's a real buzzy

27:47

term. We need a little bit more, you know, proof that this is

27:49

happening, like in order we need like a target of

27:51

said genocide. Right, the following going,

27:54

Yeah, So the following going, which

27:56

you have probably heard about before on

27:59

our show or in any international

28:01

news is it

28:03

translates the title translates to dharma

28:06

wheel practice or law wheel practice.

28:08

It's a Chinese spiritual movement

28:11

that combines chigong and

28:13

meditation with this moral

28:16

philosophy. So it's kind of like a religion. It's

28:19

safe to say most people when

28:21

they hear about it, they would interpret it as

28:24

a religion because the ultimate goal is the

28:26

idea of enlightenment

28:28

on a spiritual level. It was started in so

28:31

it's very it's very young. Initially

28:34

the Chinese officials and the Communist

28:37

Party thought

28:39

that, you know, they supported it, right, but

28:42

because of its size, because of its

28:45

independence from the state and it's

28:47

emphasis on spiritual teaching, it

28:50

was seen as something like it's

28:52

a good way, a possible security

28:55

risk, or a secessionist

28:57

movement maybe, and it was officially in at

28:59

several times throughout history.

29:01

Now it's been labeled as a cult, an

29:04

evil cult, a dangerous

29:06

group, like all these things by by the Chinese

29:08

government. Well, have you guys ever seen the chin

29:10

Yunu posters and billboards

29:13

ads that are like everywhere this aerial

29:15

acrobat China organization.

29:18

Yeah, well it's like a traveling show

29:20

or whatever. Right, Uh, they practice Fallonong.

29:22

I mean, it's become a joke like that show is so prevalent

29:25

any city you're in, you're gonna see them on bill bulletin

29:27

boards and you know, busses and everything.

29:29

It's like a very popular show. But yes, they are

29:31

practitioners of Fallonong. Interesting

29:34

and in two thousand and six, official

29:36

allegations emerged that a large number

29:38

of Follongong practitioners have been

29:40

killed to supply the oregan transplant

29:43

industry in China. Uh

29:45

and these came from those uh,

29:47

those earlier writers we had mentioned,

29:50

David Kilgore, former Canadian Secretary

29:52

of State, and David Mantas, who's a human

29:54

rights lawyer. The

29:56

problem, of course, spoiler alert. China

29:58

denies all of this, and recently

30:02

this tribunal after after

30:05

their uh their statement in December

30:08

in twenty nineteen, the tribunal concluded

30:10

that the killing of detainees in China for

30:13

organ transplants hasn't stopped,

30:15

it is continuing, and though Following

30:18

Gong detainees might not

30:20

be the only

30:22

source of these illegal

30:24

organ harvesting operations, they

30:27

are one of the primary sources. And

30:30

in a unanimous determination just

30:32

this year, they said that the evidence clearly

30:34

indicated this forced organ harvesting

30:37

again, killing people, not because

30:39

of what they did to land in jail, but

30:42

killing people because there's a new

30:44

order in for a hot off the cadaver

30:47

kidney right, And they said

30:49

this had taken place for at least two

30:52

decades. They said there were certain

30:54

the Following Gong group was a

30:56

source, probably the principal source of

30:58

these organs of According to a

31:00

guy named Sir Jeffrey Nice, who chaired

31:02

the tribunal, he's a QC. The

31:05

conclusion shows that very many people

31:07

have died in describably hideous deaths

31:09

for new reason, that more may suffer

31:11

in similar ways, and that all of us live on a

31:13

planet where extreme wickedness may be found

31:15

in the power of those for the time being

31:18

running a country with one of the oldest civilizations

31:21

known to modern man. Continues

31:23

to say there is no evidence of the practice

31:25

having been stopped, and the tribunal is

31:27

satisfied that it is continuing. No,

31:30

really, they're satisfied that

31:32

it's continuing. No, it's

31:36

British, British language, we understand. But

31:38

yeah, so they said, they said, this is

31:42

not a theory, right, this is not

31:44

a rumor. There's not a couple of isolated

31:46

cases from the nineteen nineties. This

31:48

is happening. And

31:51

it's like, we we can't we can say

31:53

it's indicative of genocide, even if we can't

31:56

conclusively say it's genocide, because

31:58

that's sort of a United Nations determine nation

32:00

a lot of times. But they said, you're

32:02

killing people. Yeah, and there there

32:04

are more details to this situation,

32:07

and it gets darker, and we're

32:09

going to cover that right after another word from our sponsor.

32:18

What's the creepy line from Willy Wonka,

32:21

the gene Wilder version where it gets really dark?

32:24

Oh, no, that's what's

32:26

a

32:31

where this is going.

32:35

Yes, this is this is that part.

32:37

This is where we go deeper into the

32:40

tunnel here. Because although

32:43

China again dismisses these claims as

32:45

politically motivated and untrue, even

32:47

calling them propaganda, essentially,

32:50

we know that there there are numerous

32:52

examples of what appears to

32:54

be first hand testimony from

32:57

both following Gong members and Weaker

32:59

in eights in the in the

33:01

concentration camps in western China were

33:04

being a religious group and also like

33:06

a race, right. Uh. Yeah, They're a

33:09

ethnic minority in China, and the majority,

33:12

the ethnic majority in China would

33:14

be the Han. That we are are Muslim

33:18

and practicing Muslims. They've

33:20

been in these so called education

33:23

or re education camps. The people are

33:25

pro we grow activists will say that

33:27

the Han are forcibly assimilating them or

33:29

trying to wipe out their culture by putting them in these

33:31

camps and making them reject

33:34

their religious their long

33:36

held religious practices. And if you want to learn more

33:38

about that, we have an entire episode on modern

33:40

day concentration camps. I believe that's

33:43

called something similar to that. You can learn about that

33:45

right now. And I actually I stumbled upon an

33:47

article on news dot com dot au and Australian

33:50

site that went into some

33:52

of the conditions and some of these camps,

33:55

and I mentioned to Ben and Matt

33:57

that I had watched a couple of these videos, and Ben

33:59

was surprised is that some of the folks that gave their

34:01

accounts were actually left alive, because

34:03

that is pretty uncommon, right relatively,

34:06

so yeah, and you know, and I'm

34:09

not saying that this is completely without you

34:11

know, questionability, but there are some

34:13

perspectives of some folks that describe having

34:16

blood forcibly drawn from their arms

34:19

and ear lobes, and the idea is

34:21

that it was to check the viability

34:23

of their organs they were beaten. But

34:25

then that one gentleman who seems

34:28

like he was kind of railroaded because he described

34:30

them kind of like claiming to have found

34:32

Falling Gong materials on his

34:34

computer. Um, but he did not

34:36

purport to have been a member. And so it almost feels

34:39

like this is like a thing they can use

34:41

on people, you know, to like say, oh, your

34:44

enemy of the state because we found these materials

34:46

or whatever. It would always be suspicious if

34:48

someone is caught because

34:51

of something quote unquote found on their computer.

34:54

Very so easy, so easy to plan and

34:57

um stories like that where then

34:59

a actually after you

35:01

know, beatings where one gentleman

35:04

overheard somebody guard saying

35:06

be careful not to damage his organs,

35:08

you know, but like really really brutal beatings,

35:11

UM, and doctors not speaking to

35:13

the individuals, they would draw blood from them

35:15

without saying, you know, with repeated questions as to what

35:18

they're doing, why they're doing it, they wouldn't answer. Um.

35:20

And yeah, it's like basically these forced labor

35:23

camps where people are pulled out of line and kind

35:25

of like taken to these these medical

35:27

facilities. And one person in particular

35:30

that you know, had a very similar

35:32

or you know, the same experience was a

35:34

woman named Jennifer Zing who was a felon gooing

35:36

activist. She was imprisoned for only about

35:39

a year in a labor camp for women only. Uh

35:41

and and she has this quote that she

35:44

should that she gave to the Guardian. I'm just

35:46

gonna read this. It says, on

35:48

the day we were transferred to the labor camp, we

35:50

were taken to a medical facility where we underwent

35:53

physical checkups. We were interrogated

35:55

about what diseases we had, and I

35:57

told them I had hepatitis. The

36:00

second time, after about a month in the

36:02

camp, everyone was handcuffed and put into

36:04

a van and taken to a huge

36:06

hospital that was a far

36:08

more thorough physical checkup. We

36:10

were given X rays. On the third occasion

36:13

in the camp, they were drawing blood from us.

36:15

We were all told to line up in the corridor

36:17

and the tests were given. So it

36:20

really does paint a picture of UM

36:23

when you were inside this labor camp

36:25

as a you know, a prisoner. Essentially,

36:28

your health is very important

36:30

to the people who are keeping you there, and

36:33

that is you know, over all the episodes that

36:35

we've done on you know, we just did

36:37

one on UH on prison

36:39

healthcare. And while this isn't

36:41

the same thing, we're in a different country, we're into different

36:44

circumstances, but generally check

36:47

that that number of checkups and

36:49

monitoring of health in a prison

36:51

system, I would say, is not

36:54

UM standards, not at all, and

36:56

I mean not unless something really dire

36:59

happens and then you're admitted, and you know that's

37:02

usually they don't just say,

37:04

hey, how are you doing? Can we check up on you and make sure

37:06

that you're feeling okay. So

37:09

here's the tricky part. Two. According

37:11

to this tribunal's estimates,

37:14

as many as ninety thousand transplant

37:16

operations are being conducted a year out

37:19

of this country, and that is a much much

37:21

higher figure than that given by official government

37:24

sources in China. But all

37:27

of this evidence technically, all of these

37:29

eyewitness accounts, all of the all

37:32

of the testimony of former surgeons

37:34

or soldiers, it's

37:37

still legally is circumstantial.

37:39

And no one has there's a good article about this

37:41

a new scientists. No one has been able

37:43

to directly observe or prove

37:46

that these transplant organs are

37:48

still being sourced from prisoners. Even

37:51

if we have soldiers claiming that they've

37:53

seen live organ harvesting,

37:57

there's no tape of this, you know what I mean, there's

37:59

knowing con revertible video proof.

38:02

And now the

38:05

Chinese Embassy has commented on

38:07

these claims in a fairly categorical

38:09

manner. As quoted in the Guardian,

38:12

the embassy said the Chinese government

38:14

will always follow the World Health Organization's

38:16

guiding principles on human organ transplant

38:19

and its strengthened its management on organ

38:21

transplant in recent years. On March

38:24

two thousand seven, the Chinese State Council

38:26

enacted the Regulation on Human Organ Transplant,

38:29

providing that human organ donation must

38:31

be done voluntarily and gratis

38:34

free of charge. We hope that the British

38:36

people will not be misled by rumors

38:38

because there's this, uh, there's this movement

38:40

now in the United Kingdom to ban

38:43

people from traveling to China for the purposes

38:45

of medical tourism. That's how that's how

38:47

big the concern has become. Well,

38:50

then, let's so we already

38:52

know that this is a big deal,

38:55

right, And we don't really have, as

38:57

you said, been, any kind of incontrovertible

38:59

video evidence of this just occurring at a labor

39:01

camp over and over even one time.

39:04

If we did, then we could come right

39:06

out and say that. But we do have testimony

39:09

of at least one person that we found, uh

39:12

who is said to have taken part

39:14

in taking organs

39:17

out of a person who was still alive, who

39:19

had just been shot by

39:22

authorities of some sort. And he was a

39:24

he was a medical professional. Right, that's

39:26

correct. So let's let's go to July.

39:31

Go let's go to Ireland where

39:33

the Senate was meeting. They were meeting with the Joint Committee

39:35

on Foreign Affairs and Trade in Defense, and

39:37

they were hearing evidence from experts about

39:40

specifically the organ harvesting or

39:42

the alleged organ harvesting that was going

39:44

on in China. And there's a man named

39:46

Dr enver Toti. I

39:48

believe that's correct. Um, he was

39:51

giving testimony about how he was quote

39:53

led to perform organ harvesting on

39:55

a civilian in China, and

39:58

this was early on in his medical career. It

40:00

was he said

40:02

that there were two chief surgeons

40:05

who told him to assemble a team. This is he's

40:07

he's just being told this assemble a team for

40:11

the largest possible surgery the

40:13

following morning. So you

40:15

know, again it's early in his career. Uh,

40:17

he's being told this by people who work for

40:20

the government, essentially in the medical

40:22

system. Um, he ends

40:24

up getting, you know, gathering a team. They're brought

40:26

outside of a hospital and they're told to

40:28

wait for the gun shots. This

40:31

is what he's giving testimony. You can watch a video

40:33

of him giving this testimony. Um,

40:36

it's uh, it's pretty crazy to to

40:39

listen to it because this is what he says. Then,

40:42

after gunshots were her we rushed in.

40:44

An armed officer directed us to the far right

40:47

corner where I can see a civilian clothed

40:49

man lying on the ground with a single bullet

40:51

wound to his right chest. My

40:53

chief surgeons ordered and guided

40:55

me to extract the liver and the two kidneys.

40:58

The man was alive. He tried to his this

41:00

to my scalpel cut, but was too weak to avoid

41:02

my action. There was bleeding. He

41:04

was still alive and this yeah,

41:07

and you know in this article

41:09

where you can find this. And during this uh this

41:12

uh this committee hearing, as

41:15

as Dr Tody is giving this, he's saying,

41:17

every time I tell this story, it feels like a confession.

41:20

And then he goes on to talk about how

41:22

he felt like he was just in that moment

41:25

and in his career, he felt like he

41:27

was carrying out his duty for his country

41:29

and he was going to quote eliminate the

41:31

enemy of the state. Right.

41:33

His story is fascinating. So Dr

41:36

Emvert Tody is fifty

41:38

seven now he's an uber driver working

41:40

in the UK, but it was it was

41:43

formerly a surgeon and he

41:46

was working in Romchi

41:48

in northwest China

41:50

when his boss has asked him, quote, do you want

41:53

to do something wild? He

41:55

was a young doctor at the time. He said yes,

41:57

and they drove him to the Western Mountain execute

42:00

action grounds. He saw around fifteen bodies on

42:02

the mountain side, all of which have been shot in the head.

42:04

So this may be a different I think, because

42:07

the one we just described, the guy

42:09

was shot in the once in the right side of his chest,

42:12

right avoiding the heart. Noticed that,

42:14

uh. And when he when

42:16

he was there, he was ordered to cut

42:19

deep and work fast on a

42:21

victim that he claimed had not been and esther

42:23

sized and who had been shot in the chest. So

42:25

it's the same it's the same guy. Uh.

42:28

And this guy like he still

42:30

took organs out of the people who have been shot

42:32

in the head. But the the guy

42:34

who was shot in

42:36

the chest, he

42:38

knew, he knew it was still alive because he was struggling

42:41

and there was still blood coming out of the cut, which

42:43

meant the heart was still pumping. And

42:46

he was ordered to remove

42:48

the liver, both kidneys, so the body back up

42:50

and quote remember that today nothing

42:52

happened. So

42:54

he has he still has PTSD from

42:57

this and dedicates his life to

42:59

campaigning for awareness of the practice.

43:02

That's that's his that's his statement,

43:04

and that's where we are today

43:06

with this. Make no mistake, China

43:09

is home to a massive organ

43:12

trade. That that's not in question. The

43:14

question here is whether or not this trade is

43:16

legal. What is the provenance of these organs?

43:18

Was the destination? What is the economic

43:21

uh fuel for this engine? Regardless

43:24

of which side you ask, you're going to find

43:26

a conspiracy theory. On one side,

43:29

you'll find the Chinese government and officials

43:31

alleging and conspiracy on the part of other

43:33

nations attempting to discredit

43:35

it, to attack it and vilify it

43:38

on the international stage. And they'll point

43:40

out this is true. They'll point out that these are

43:42

in g o s often right on

43:44

the other side well, and sometimes

43:47

have meddled before absolutely

43:49

as outside organizations. Yeah,

43:52

yeah, absolutely, that's unfortunately

43:54

a tale as old as modern time. On

43:57

the other side, international investigations

44:00

and several other countries, primarily

44:02

countries in the West, allege the government

44:04

of China itself is involved in a conspiracy

44:07

to supply cheap organs by executing

44:09

marginalized members of society

44:12

and maybe even sometimes arresting

44:14

them when oregan demand gets high enough

44:16

and they need more bodies, bodies

44:18

in the cells or on the shooting grounds.

44:21

To be fair, though, no government

44:23

is actually monolithic and no

44:25

government is uniform, so it's entirely

44:27

possible that corrupt factions

44:30

in the government are supporting this illegal

44:32

practice while other factions fight

44:34

against it, you know what I mean. Someone there might

44:36

be a caball of people in northwestern

44:39

China who are making money

44:42

on the side in an in an underground

44:44

operation, like the people

44:46

in charge of a prison, right are making

44:48

money by just letting the bodies

44:51

disappear for a second after execution

44:54

on their way to wherever their final resting

44:56

place will be. And then the doctors might be making

44:58

money on the side, and and the regional officials

45:01

or the local government in the area might

45:03

be making money by turning a blind eye. Uh.

45:06

This this is how a lot of these things

45:08

work. This is this would be categorized

45:10

as true crime. We cannot

45:13

escape the fact that there is a profound

45:15

amount of money involved on

45:18

on either side, the

45:20

legal trade and the illegal trade. And so now

45:23

we have to ask which side do

45:25

you believe and why Propaganda

45:27

is a huge business too. It's

45:30

you would you might be surprised, but

45:33

it's it's similar to the Oregon trade in that

45:35

there's a there are lives on the line, just

45:37

not as directly, and it's just called public

45:40

relations now. It's just called public relations

45:42

now. So it is completely

45:44

possible for some stories

45:47

to be circulated, especially when there's

45:49

a language barrier or state

45:51

control of media, and for those stories

45:54

to appear realistic but then later turn out

45:56

to be propaganda, like that Nurse

45:58

Narayah story infamous,

46:01

which is pretty much made up about the

46:03

children being pulled out at incubators,

46:06

or like the stories

46:08

that chose on Elbow will run sometimes

46:10

that are anti d p r K. And let

46:13

me very clear, I am not defending that country.

46:15

I'm just saying that propaganda exist.

46:18

So do you think this is propaganda? Do you think

46:21

this is a system

46:23

of murder to sell organs

46:26

or is this something in between? Is it a

46:28

few bad actors or is it

46:30

something that is just growing

46:33

now and has been growing, something that

46:35

will continue across the planet

46:37

as resources continue to get scarce

46:40

and humans continue to

46:42

be less and less valued. I

46:44

will tell you one thing I

46:47

did. I can't say that I fully believe that this

46:49

is happening, um, just because,

46:51

like you said, been early early on in this the

46:54

numbers are so opaque, We know so very

46:56

little. If that does lead

46:58

my conspiratorial brain or side

47:00

of me to say, well, they're probably hiding something,

47:03

but I have a hard time fully

47:05

believing it. But what I what I can say

47:08

is that it terrifies

47:10

me that a lot of human beings,

47:12

these days, are walking around giving

47:15

all of their health information to some

47:17

third party app or something on their phone,

47:20

or we're all you know, we're all

47:22

tracking our biometrics, or many of us

47:24

are, even if we don't even realize it. In

47:26

the same way that these prisoners are

47:28

being checked up on all the time to make

47:30

sure their their blood is good, to make sure

47:32

their organs are functioning correctly. In

47:35

a similar way, we're kind of doing the same

47:37

thing, but we're collecting it for some corporation

47:40

out there that's going to be to

47:42

have all of our information at some point

47:45

when when the people with the

47:47

money need our organs. You

47:49

know what I'm saying, guys, Jeez, Matt, that's

47:52

why, that's why you have the party gather

47:55

you why you may just drink

47:57

as much as possible to make sure that

47:59

livers not ready to burn the

48:01

village to save the village, you know what I mean? Wow,

48:04

that I'm sorry. I did not mean for that to be that dark.

48:07

Okay, that is

48:09

that is a horrific quote that is attributed

48:11

to the US military's legal actions

48:14

during the Vietnam War. There you go, h

48:17

and we want to hear. We want to

48:19

hear your opinion upon this because it touches

48:21

on many many things. You

48:24

can tell us about your strange

48:26

experiences with surgery in your

48:28

neck of the Global Woods, tell us about your experience

48:30

with Oregon transplants. And also,

48:33

you know, maybe there's a little bit too much of a door

48:35

to open here, but what

48:38

what do you think about the current

48:40

state of US healthcare, which we briefly

48:42

mentioned here? Do you do feel the

48:44

free market is best? Do you do you think that?

48:47

Uh? Do you think that people should

48:49

die of curable conditions and diseases

48:52

due to you know, financial

48:54

concerns? I

48:56

hope not. Well, I mean I

48:59

want to I want to hear what people think. That's good. Yeah,

49:01

you're right, you can. You can

49:03

tell us about all this and more. Most

49:05

importantly, you are our favorite

49:08

part of this show, specifically you're listening,

49:10

so we would always love to hear

49:13

topics that you think would fascinate

49:15

your fellow listeners. And we have a ton of

49:17

ways that you can contact us. One of

49:19

the best ones is to head over to Facebook

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and join our special group,

49:24

our private group called Here's

49:26

where it gets crazy. You have to say

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who are the hosts are of the show. But if

49:30

you get just one I think even Okay,

49:32

well, if you get one right, that's perfect.

49:35

If you mentioned Mission Control, Mr

49:37

poll d over there, that's good. I

49:39

just saw one where somebody called Ben ben Brolin,

49:42

which I really like. Thanks guys. Well,

49:44

and you know there's Sunny D and Polly D right,

49:47

and I'm Polly Walnuts that's right,

49:50

or mentioned Badgers. We've we had a couple of

49:54

really just make us laugh, you know, we're

49:56

in it's it's a crazy

49:58

year and things are just gonna get stranger

50:01

before they level out. And

50:04

you can also find us on Twitter where we're conspiracy stuff.

50:07

On Facebook regular were conspiracy

50:09

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50:11

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50:13

some handles, Yeah, you can. You can

50:16

see very until

50:18

I get disappeared at some point. You can

50:21

find various global misadventures

50:24

at Ben Boling My My misadventures

50:26

mainly stay relegated to the continental

50:29

United States, but you can find

50:31

those at how Now Noel Brown

50:33

and mine. I have one that

50:36

I just haven't put anything on yet. It's just

50:38

sitting there and I think I'm only I

50:40

think I'm only friends. What do you call

50:42

it when Instagram followers, I'm only following

50:44

my wife right now, which I probably shouldn't if it's

50:46

gonna be official account. I don't know how these things

50:48

work anyway. Uh, let's

50:51

move on. You're adorable. I do want to

50:53

give one shout out though, to some

50:55

folks on our Facebook page. Here's where he gets

50:57

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51:00

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51:21

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51:42

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51:49

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51:52

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