0:00

From UFOs to psychic powers

0:02

and government conspiracies. History

0:04

is riddled with unexplained events. You

0:07

can turn back now or learn

0:09

the stuff they don't want you to know. M

0:24

Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,

0:26

my name is normal. They call me Ben. We

0:28

are joined with our super producer, Paul

0:30

Mission Controlled Decond. Most importantly,

0:33

you are you. You are here that

0:35

makes this stuff they don't want

0:37

you to know. For some of

0:39

our long time listeners, this

0:42

may be a familiar topic. You

0:44

see, way way back

0:46

in the olden days, when Stuff they Don't

0:48

Want You to Know was purely a

0:51

video show on YouTube, Amazon

0:54

and iTunes which is

0:56

Apple Music now right, but

0:58

mostly the YouTube's Yeah. Way back

1:01

in the day, this show was

1:03

entirely a video series and

1:06

we covered all sorts

1:08

of bizarre and strange events.

1:12

The videos were much shorter um.

1:15

They were more like introduction episodes

1:18

or primers for things

1:20

that we would invite people to examine in

1:22

depth on their own, and

1:24

they looked a lot better

1:26

than the podcast. Yeah

1:30

and mad Genius Matt Frederick was

1:33

creating some stunning visuals. I was just

1:35

saying, mostly because your face was on

1:37

it for most of the time been. Yeah, I don't anyone

1:39

who hasn't beheld the majesty that is

1:41

the face of ben Bowland. It is a

1:43

thing to be hoped. Like speaking to you through

1:45

the internet. All all four

1:48

of us are lookers. And uh, I think

1:50

that the three of us all appear

1:52

at some point in that video series.

1:55

Paul mission control decond

1:57

did not to my mod it did

2:00

one? Which one is here? There's a video?

2:03

Oh gosh, is from It's the neuromarketing

2:06

video. I want to say, no, wait, is

2:08

it not. It's not neuromarketing. It's

2:11

one where you're trying to find me and

2:13

I'm in a sleeping bag. Oh.

2:16

And we walked past Paul's desk and

2:19

Paul is sitting there with Annie next

2:21

to him. Another producer here, and

2:24

god, she's not a producer anymore. I'm so

2:26

sorry. She's the host of Saber and the host

2:28

of Sminty. You

2:31

see. That's how long we've been here doing this stuff.

2:33

Back in the day, Annie and Paul and me, we

2:36

were just producers, man, That's what we did. This

2:38

was a buckhead first off.

2:40

I object to saying just producers. This

2:44

was back in our buckhead days

2:46

when we're in different office, right, I remember that video?

2:48

Yeah, but see now what I'm what I mean by that? Is it now?

2:51

Paul has been on movie Crush recently

2:53

talking about movies. Paul is

2:56

Paul is going to be starting his own podcast

2:58

really soon. It's called The

3:01

decand it's

3:08

only one second long. It's

3:10

also guys, just on

3:12

the marketing end of that, we

3:14

would prefer in messaging that you

3:16

refer to it as a podcast. Yeah,

3:19

it's a podcast. So

3:21

so, okay, mystery solved.

3:23

At least one mystery solved for today's

3:26

episode. We have all four appeared on the videos.

3:28

If you watched the Videos

3:31

series, then you would have probably

3:33

run into something that was very

3:35

mysterious to us, a walnut

3:38

that we could not quite crack. And video

3:40

format. We looked at an organization

3:42

called the Finders. The

3:45

Finders were um

3:48

involved in an incident that shocked

3:50

the United States in the late eighties

3:52

and then largely disappeared

3:55

from the news. So

3:57

the best way and think to delve

4:00

into this very very strange

4:03

organization is to start with

4:05

that event that made national news. Here

4:08

are the facts. On February eight, the

4:11

New York Times ran an

4:13

odd article. It was a report on six

4:16

children who were found in a Tallahassee

4:19

playground earlier that week, on February

4:21

five, And you know that's okay.

4:24

There's six children found on a playground. That's

4:26

a little weird to begin with, but it gets

4:28

much stranger, right it does. According

4:31

to an anonymous phone call to the local police

4:33

department, these kids aged

4:36

two to seven years old. We're not

4:38

alone. They were accompanied by two well

4:40

dressed men in their mid to late

4:42

twenties, a guy named Douglas Edward

4:45

Zimmerman and a guy named Michael jula

4:47

Han, which I think that's just a

4:49

fun last name to say or have hold.

4:52

So so you've got these two

4:55

again, according to this color, well dressed gentlemen,

4:57

well dressed men standing there with these

4:59

kids. The kids, however, they

5:01

look unkempt. They look

5:04

to be just dirty and in

5:07

some way, again to this caller, somehow

5:09

injured or abused. And

5:11

the first reports noted that at

5:14

least two of the kids exhibited some signs

5:16

of sexual abuse. Now that's

5:19

a tough thing in my mind to quantify just

5:22

by a visual um

5:24

but who knows the circumstances

5:26

there. You'd ideally want a

5:28

medical professional to examine

5:30

the children, the doctor because

5:33

that's a heavy accusation, yeah, or therapists.

5:36

It doesn't seem like something you could easily profile.

5:39

So we have a lot of details about

5:41

the men. They were either in a nineteen

5:44

seventy nine or nine eight blue Dodge

5:46

van with Virginia plates.

5:48

Uh. The license number, which we could

5:50

tell you now because this was back in

5:52

the eighties. It's x h W five

5:55

five seven. And who knows where

5:57

that license plate is now if it's been reused.

6:01

Could I hope it's not yours? Yeah?

6:03

Or I definitely hope it's not someone's

6:05

idea of a nifty vanity plate. So

6:09

inside this van things become

6:12

more distressing. The van

6:14

smells terrible. It's filled

6:16

with maps, books, letters, there's

6:19

a mattress in the rear of the van, and

6:23

the police, based on the appearance of this

6:25

vehicle, got the feeling that all

6:27

eight people, the six kids and the two

6:29

adults, were living in it and had been

6:32

for some time. So these guys,

6:34

who, to be clear, are not the parents

6:36

of any of these children. They get arrested,

6:39

they get booked into the Leon County jail.

6:41

They get charged with multiple counts

6:43

of child abuse and once they're in custody,

6:46

the men um were somewhat evasive

6:48

in their responses to the police in

6:51

terms of the children and their relationship with

6:53

them, and said only that they were the children's

6:55

teachers and that they were all en route

6:57

to Mexico to create a

7:00

school for gifted children. Brilliant

7:03

even, And at that point the

7:06

police say, okay, well that's

7:08

an interesting story. We don't know if

7:10

it all adds up. We're gonna go ahead and remove these

7:12

kids from your care. And

7:14

then they tried, or they started the process

7:16

of at least of trying to identify

7:19

these children, like if this these

7:21

guys are supposedly teachers, where

7:24

are their parents? Right? Right?

7:26

So we're going to play around with their chronology

7:29

just a little bit and let you

7:31

know spoiler alert that in March seventeen

7:34

of that same year, the

7:36

charges against the men were entirely dismissed

7:39

and they were released from custody.

7:41

This is only the beginning of

7:44

the story. As it turns

7:46

out, these two gentlemen were

7:48

not acting alone. They were members

7:50

of a group, a commune of sorts, an organization

7:53

that some would call a cult, and

7:55

this would come to be known as the

7:57

finders. The mothers

8:00

of those six children were also affiliated

8:02

with this organization, and they

8:04

came forward to the public through a spokesperson,

8:07

Diane Sherwood, confirming

8:09

that they had approved this trip and

8:11

that the two men were taking the kids camping

8:14

and everybody would be meeting up with the mothers

8:17

at a later date. Furthermore, the spokesperson

8:19

confirmed that the mothers would now be traveling

8:22

to Tallahassee to pick up their

8:24

children. So thus far we've

8:26

got we're teachers taking

8:29

them to Mexico to start

8:31

a new school for brilliant children,

8:34

and now we've got the mothers coming forward through a

8:36

spokesperson saying no, no, no no, no, no, that's

8:38

not what happened. They were going on a camping trip. Those

8:41

guys were just you know, I guess the

8:43

chaperones maybe not mutually

8:45

exclusive. But it is weird that the story

8:48

is already don't seem to jibe in

8:50

a waterproof way. So initial

8:52

reports in various

8:54

papers of note from the Chicago

8:57

Tribune to The New York Times, the Washington Post

8:59

and more, implied that this was

9:01

a case of everything from a mundane

9:04

kidnapping to possibly human

9:06

trafficking to ellipses

9:09

dot dot dot a cult. Now

9:13

this this is not a particularly

9:15

uncommon story in

9:17

the nineteen eighties because this

9:19

occurs at the height of what is called

9:21

the Satanic Panic in American

9:24

culture, and during this time, largely

9:27

in the eighties, but a little bit out in the nineties

9:29

and seventies as well. There are numerous

9:32

serious allegations of cults conducting

9:34

satanic rituals, abusing,

9:37

sacrificing or kidnapping

9:39

children, um and murdering

9:42

people left and right. These proliferate

9:44

throughout the national zeitgeist. Some of

9:46

us listening may be old

9:48

enough to remember this, but if

9:51

you were born after this time,

9:53

it's a Google search away. These

9:56

are the days when various

9:58

rock bands would be accute used of encoding

10:01

satanic messages onto their records

10:04

in some kind of Rube Goldbergs

10:07

complicated plan to convert people

10:10

to them to the infernal powers

10:12

of darkness. Yeah, even the Zodiac

10:15

case. Haraldo Rivera

10:18

and one of his shows he was making at the time, turned

10:20

that into a Satanic panic

10:22

thing, like it was all about Satan and

10:25

all of the symbols and everything, and

10:28

it's crazy to think, like, especially Haraldo

10:30

and some of these talk shows that's where I generally have

10:32

memories of seeing that kind of interview

10:35

with somebody like, oh, you were abused

10:38

by a Satanic cult. You sacrificed

10:40

your own children, like what?

10:43

And the other guy with the white hair was

10:45

Donna Hue.

10:48

Yeah, I remember, I barely remember

10:50

that show, but he was. He was active in

10:52

this stuff as well. And while the idea

10:55

of Satanism, or the misconception

10:58

of what Satanism is what would be called deistic

11:00

Satanism, which we don't have to get into today,

11:02

but it's it's different on While

11:06

that gets top billing in

11:08

in the marquee of this cultural

11:12

phenomenon, the big

11:14

concern was any kind of cult, a

11:16

pagan by which they non

11:19

Christian religious

11:21

organization, and a lot of these

11:24

things were used as smear tactics against

11:26

people that were unusual or groups

11:28

that were unorthodox. But here's

11:31

the thing. In the case

11:33

of the Finders, these accusations

11:36

may have been more accurate

11:39

than not. So that sounds

11:41

intense. What when are we going

11:43

to find out about that? After a quick

11:45

word from our sponsor, here's

11:53

where it gets crazy. The investigation

11:56

continues and it gets

11:58

more and more complicated, and straight change

12:00

and eventually goes sour. So

12:02

let's go back to February of

12:06

so in the course of verifying the identities

12:09

and the stories of the men who

12:11

were arrested in Florida, police

12:13

traced this cult to Virginia

12:16

and Washingt d C. Where they also obtained

12:19

a warrant to search several buildings that

12:21

were believed to be occupied

12:23

by this group. Originally

12:25

the Post The Washington Post reported that

12:27

police found thousands of photos and documents

12:30

and computer programs

12:33

at these various locations. They hoped that analyzing

12:35

these would give them what they needed,

12:37

what they hoped to learn to help them

12:40

decide what exactly the finders

12:42

organization was.

12:44

And we have a quote from that Washington

12:46

Post article. It says they quote

12:49

removed large plastic bags filled

12:51

with color slides, photographs,

12:53

and photographic contact sheets. Some

12:55

photos visible through the bag carried from the warehouse

12:58

at thirteen oh seven fourth Eat.

13:01

We're wallet sized pictures

13:03

of children, similar to school

13:05

photos, and some were

13:07

of naked children. Here's a

13:09

continuing quote here. DC

13:12

police sources said that some of the items seized

13:14

yesterday showed pictures of children engaged

13:17

in what appeared to be cult rituals.

13:19

Officials of the U. S Customs Service, called

13:21

into aid in the investigation, said that

13:23

the material season includes photos showing

13:26

children involved in blood letting, ceremonies

13:28

of animals, and one photograph of

13:30

a child in chains. Customs

13:32

officials said they were looking into whether a child

13:34

pornography operation was being conducted.

13:37

Very very heavy stuff in

13:40

Yeah, and again, this is the Washington Post. This

13:42

is not, uh, some tabloid

13:44

where you would see the Satanic panic

13:47

accusations a lot of the time. Right.

13:50

This is not Weekly World News or the National

13:53

Enquirer. According to the

13:55

records from the U. S District Court in Washington,

13:58

a confidential police source had previously

14:00

told authorities back in eighty six

14:03

that the Finders were quote a cult

14:06

and they were conducting brainwashing operations

14:09

at this warehouse and then at a duplex in

14:11

the Glover Park neighborhood. The

14:13

source told the police that

14:15

they had been recruited by the Finders with promises

14:18

of financial reward and sexual gratification,

14:21

and that they were invited by at least one

14:23

member to explore Satanism with

14:25

them, and then, according to the affidavit,

14:28

the same source told authorities that children

14:30

were used in rituals by the members,

14:33

and the source did say they had never

14:35

witnessed abuse of the children,

14:38

but that the children's grandparents

14:40

feared for their safety. No.

14:42

Wow, So it seems as though the parents had

14:44

gotten involved in the cult itself

14:47

and the children were just kind of, um,

14:49

you know, they were victims of association

14:52

many as will come to find. We're born into

14:55

the organization. But

14:57

while we're on the subject of those six kids, we

15:00

learn a little bit more about them.

15:02

So in the original reports, um, the kids

15:04

were described as being hungry, dirty,

15:06

and under duress

15:09

of some kind, irritated a little bit, behaving

15:12

erratically somewhat. But a local

15:14

doctor who examined them said that none of the children

15:16

were actually ill. Uh. None

15:19

seemed to recognize objects

15:21

though, like typewriters or staplers.

15:24

Um. Though most of the kids would wouldn't

15:26

really talk to the police, the oldest child was able

15:28

to do that a little bit more effectively. Um.

15:31

She confirmed that she and the other children

15:33

had lived in Washington, d C. In

15:35

a house, a group house, that the men

15:38

were their teachers, and that while

15:40

living in this house in d C, they

15:42

received instructions from a man called

15:44

the game caller or game

15:47

Leaders has got

15:49

some true detective Season three

15:54

Government name of this guy is Merry

15:56

and Petty. Yeah, so

15:59

the kids said, Mr. Petty quote

16:01

tells everyone what to do. He's in charge.

16:03

We kids slept outside and the mommy's

16:05

slept inside Mr Petty. And

16:07

I find this to be an odd thing for a kid to say, but it sounds

16:10

like they almost had their own way of

16:12

talking from this isolation they experienced.

16:15

Mr Petty weans the kids

16:17

from the moms m HM.

16:20

And this man police

16:22

would come to find was named Mary and

16:25

Petty. He was known by various

16:27

monikers in the group. He was called

16:30

the stroller, or the game

16:32

caller, or the game leader. And

16:34

the neighbors of these DC locations

16:37

were conflicted in their descriptions

16:39

of the finders. Some describe

16:42

the group as an out and out cult. They

16:45

said that only women and children live

16:47

on these premises. Male members

16:49

of the cult visit them frequently, and

16:51

the adults are left over hippies,

16:54

and they don't really seem to care

16:57

what the kids do or what happens. I mean, these kids

16:59

were so dirty that they were prevented on from

17:01

playing on playgrounds in the area with

17:03

other children because they had sores,

17:06

they were covered in filth. But

17:10

another individual who had

17:13

been associated with them in years past, not

17:15

as a member. He described the group

17:17

as close knit feminist and

17:19

they said they're not a cult. They're all helping

17:22

people, helping folks in the community. And

17:25

we see this contradictory information

17:27

make it to the press too. By February

17:30

eleven, eighty seven, the media

17:32

had alternately described the group as a

17:34

satanic cult, a group of

17:36

Mary Prankster's kind of electric

17:39

kool Aid acid test style gone

17:41

too far off the rails, or a group

17:43

of accomplished academics that were

17:46

simply immersed in a twenty year old social

17:48

experiment. Talked about a longitudinal

17:50

study. Yeah, oh man, see I like that

17:52

one that was like that one makes everything okay to me

17:55

as long as uh, they're actually not hurting the

17:57

kids. But it sounds like they were, I

17:59

guess neglecting them. Wouldn't you say? Social

18:01

experiment? It's such a broad thing, but

18:04

at least you'd get something out of it. I guess stuff.

18:06

They don't want you to know. A social experiment, you

18:08

know what, You're right, it is a

18:10

social experiment, no matter what, with

18:14

guaranteed no abuse. Luckily

18:17

right. So there's

18:20

another aspect to the

18:22

closure of this investigation. This is

18:24

a seed we want to plant. Rumors

18:29

circulated that after US

18:31

Customs got involved in the case, which will explore

18:34

in a moment, UH, the CIA or

18:37

another intelligence agency stopped the

18:39

investigation and claimed did it become

18:41

an internal matter for the agency

18:44

and this this rumor was

18:47

later confirmed to be true from

18:49

US Customs reports themselves primary

18:51

sources. Let's hold that in

18:54

our minds for a moment, and let's

18:56

explore the mysterious man known

18:58

as Marry and Petty, alternately

19:01

known as M. D. Petty, the game

19:03

Caller, as you said, no, the Stroller,

19:05

the game Leader, the pathfinder, and the

19:07

student. He was the leader of the

19:09

Finders group from the nineteen sixties

19:12

to his death around two thousand

19:14

and three, and it appears

19:16

that he would send members of the Finders

19:19

on various projects and referred to these

19:21

projects as games. There's

19:23

a book by a former member of the organization

19:26

called The Game Caller, which you can

19:28

find online, and according to

19:30

this book, Petty had an extremely tight

19:32

grip on the dynamics of the organization.

19:35

Former members felt that this man could

19:38

truly see into their souls

19:40

sort of a metaphysical X ray vision

19:43

with his knowledge of Eastern mysticism

19:45

and his concepts of a new age of

19:47

living. So in

19:50

a way they did have um,

19:53

I guess some some feminist architecture

19:56

to their thought process. I believe that women

19:58

never men should initially relationships

20:01

because Petty told them so, and that

20:03

children should be raised quote like

20:05

Indians on the planes, strong

20:08

and tough. They wanted independent

20:10

thinkers, right, not somebody just parenting

20:14

multiplication tables or capitals

20:16

of states. But in

20:18

reality, what this turned out, what this

20:21

ultimately resulted in was

20:24

a situation wherein children

20:27

would be raised communally, but taking

20:29

care of the kids was considered the

20:32

grunt work. So a lot of

20:34

people would say, you know, you would feel

20:36

like everybody's having a party,

20:39

but you're the ones stuck washing the dishes,

20:41

Which is not the way you should think about child care.

20:44

It is just from experience, it's the

20:46

way it feels. Sometimes sometimes it

20:48

feels that way, but uh, you're

20:51

absolutely right, that is not how it should be viewed.

20:53

I need you to watch the kid because I'm going

20:55

out to the discotheque.

20:58

Oh you're going to the discotheque again.

21:00

There's a panic at the disco. Okay,

21:02

fine, there's no panic at the disco.

21:05

Everyone chill at the disco. There's a panic

21:07

at the disco. Someone watched the Kid

21:09

for me. Well, you guys go have your exciting

21:12

chill panic and I'm just gonna play

21:14

Silly Beast for hours on end. I like

21:17

chill panic. That that sounds. That

21:19

feels like a very British emotion. Yes,

21:21

exactly, Uh so it's

21:24

It's true though this

21:27

this group experimented with the concept

21:29

of communal parenting.

21:32

For lack of a better phrase, and

21:34

interviews with former members and associates

21:36

of the group, um LAD law

21:39

enforcement to believe that at its peak, though,

21:41

around forty or so followers

21:44

actual long time followers.

21:46

Because this this group did practice an

21:48

open house kind of thing where you

21:51

could walk in from

21:53

any backgrounds right, any

21:55

socio economic status, demographic, former

21:58

job, whatever, you could

22:00

go in there and hang out with them.

22:03

A lot of people we find were turned off by

22:05

this because the finders

22:07

emphasized doing work, playing

22:09

their games as the game caller

22:12

directed them, and staying away

22:15

from drugs. So someone's living on the fringe,

22:17

living on the grift, they go in to

22:19

get some free food, and then they're like, wait,

22:22

I can't even do

22:25

mushrooms here, like no, and

22:27

you have to participate in our conversations

22:29

about social constructs.

22:32

I know that sounds like yeah,

22:35

give me, I'll take man's in any day.

22:37

That's it's apparently that's that's

22:40

not an infrequent occurrence. Well yeah,

22:42

and the other thing is the complexity

22:45

of their I guess overall belief system

22:48

seemed to also turn off some people, right,

22:50

yeah, yeah, it's a it's weird

22:52

because there wasn't really an introductory

22:55

course. You're just immedia

22:58

arrests. You're in the middle of the story. Know, there's

23:01

just no dionetics. It's straight

23:03

to cleaning out the theeton's can

23:07

we say that? Yeah? Of course. Where

23:09

is David ms Kevidge's wife, Ah,

23:12

man, I swear I saw her. I don't

23:14

know. We should ask David that,

23:16

we should ask the finders

23:18

that's right

23:21

there finding stuff. Probably

23:25

not. She's likely in

23:27

a ditch somewhere like a quarry.

23:29

Well, according to l A p D. Shelley

23:33

ms Kovidge was contacted years

23:35

ago and said that she was fine. Yeah,

23:37

she did that. That's according

23:40

to the Los Angeles Police Department.

23:42

And it's true that the Finders

23:44

did have, as you said, Matt, this very complex

23:48

belief system that was pretty intimidating

23:50

to new

23:53

members or would be initiates. And

23:56

at this time, Uh,

23:58

the game leader is about sixty

24:01

six years old and reportedly

24:03

has a tunefull Southern accent, which I thought

24:06

you would appreciate, Matt. That's

24:09

great. It's very much a yawler. Wait

24:12

do you think he was the Zodiac? I

24:14

don't know. No, that's Ted Cruise.

24:16

Oh he's in Tennessee. All right, we're good. He must be too.

24:18

He was probably pretty busy, but maybe

24:20

he sends other people out. I mean, what is

24:23

a game? Have you guys got to the part of Monster where it's

24:25

Ted Cruise yet? Yes? Sorry

24:27

spoilers, we're going to talk about

24:31

that. That's the finale. That's like the end

24:33

of Usual Suspects. Yeah. We

24:35

shouldn't mention that. We

24:37

really shouldn't. I mean, gosh, the guy

24:39

I was born in nine. You gotta

24:41

listen to the show, folks. It's free wherever

24:44

you find your favorite podcast. Yeah,

24:47

there we go, smooth plug, smooth

24:50

plug. So, speaking

24:53

of these strange arcane things,

24:55

right, these communities on the fringe, Uh,

24:58

these bizarre theories, right,

25:00

the tech crews thing is, you know, at

25:03

this point a theory sure, despite

25:05

the overwhelming mass of evidence,

25:08

yes, but despite the inability via

25:11

time. Okay,

25:13

all right, man, I'll play reindeer games. But

25:16

off air, okay, only

25:19

could he be the Zoa killer if he was killing people

25:22

before he was even conceived,

25:24

or if there were more than one killer. So

25:28

you mean he came along, was born, and then

25:30

within his first year killed

25:32

someone, know, someone taught him

25:35

what to do. Look sort of like the

25:37

monkey and that I ground post story. Yeah,

25:39

there we go, only a baby.

25:42

Yeah, okay, so he went through

25:44

time, was taught how to murder

25:47

prior to be, you know, getting

25:49

into this plane of existence. So we're

25:51

saying that I

25:54

know that it must be irritating to

25:56

you to hear to

25:59

hear us tell you

26:02

tell you, of all people about the Zodiac

26:04

murders. But as

26:07

we talked about off air, as

26:10

the three of us talked about off air, Ted

26:12

Cruz's birthday is allegedly

26:17

after the first two murders.

26:19

Okay, So again, let's say

26:22

he was born five years

26:24

before the murders. Why did I

26:26

do? What did I do? What's the five year

26:28

old killing a cab driver

26:30

named Paul stun Like I said, murders

26:33

of the room Morgue style. He was taught as

26:35

a baby. You could teach a baby to kill the

26:38

smart man. Why are you being anti

26:40

baby? Do you think children

26:42

are dumb? Have

26:45

been feeling that Brian Hartnell

26:47

or somebody would have been like, yeah, that that kid

26:50

wearing the big Zodiac mask

26:52

executions the biggest kid

26:54

I've ever seen. Well, also, going back

26:56

to the idea of there being more than one

26:59

killer, how do you know it was not three

27:01

or four babies stacked Yeah,

27:04

okay, you know I didn't. I didn't take that into account,

27:07

like wearing a trench coat. Yeah, but now

27:10

now I'm now, if I'm being completely

27:12

objective in treating this with the seriousness

27:15

that deserves, you go to the question

27:17

of the arms, because truly, someone would have reported

27:20

the baby arms. He would have been called the baby

27:22

arm killer. And it well, you know

27:25

it, it does. It

27:27

does account for the handwriting, It

27:29

does account for the hand It's like

27:31

a child. I know, this is a little bit of attention.

27:35

This is possibly the biggest tangent we've ever gone

27:37

on. Oh no, no, I don't know. We've had sebepic

27:39

ones. But I do want to say in all sincerity,

27:41

it's a great show and do check it out if you have

27:43

a chance. Uh. It is not filled

27:46

with our terrible jokes

27:49

about baby

27:52

about Texas U S. Senator Ted Cruz, who

27:55

should be respected. Man deserves your respect,

27:58

he deserves your vote, is an elected official.

28:02

My favorite conspiracy theory about Ted

28:04

Cruz is that he is

28:07

Eddie Munster as an adult.

28:12

So, getting getting back

28:14

to getting back to the Finders, where

28:17

did this thing come from? Because

28:19

some of us may have noticed that I slipped

28:22

in one very important detail, which

28:24

is that this organization dates back to the nineteen

28:27

sixties, and the commune evolved

28:30

with things like the Human Potential

28:32

movement of the nineteen seventies had

28:35

this huge emphasis on shedding inhibitions

28:37

and delusions. And most

28:40

of the people who talked about the Finder's

28:42

Cult at the time were

28:45

former members, and they wanted to be anonymous

28:48

because they were either apparently

28:51

they were either embarrassed about being associated

28:53

with the group or they were frightened

28:56

of the possible reactions from people

28:58

who are still in the Finders

29:01

organization and

29:03

um It

29:05

was described as a twenty four hour sixty

29:08

five day a year training group

29:11

for games. And this is according

29:14

to a guy who knew people in

29:16

the organization for years but was not

29:18

ever himself actually in it. He

29:20

said it was like people who go

29:22

to an institute for a weekend, but this

29:25

was for a year or a lifetime, and

29:27

these games were always changing.

29:29

I want to know more about the games, Yes

29:32

we will. Oh man, you will be

29:35

sick of the games in

29:37

a few minutes. It sounds like a D

29:39

and D boot camp or yeah,

29:41

never ending larp. Yeah, exactly.

29:44

So. Because of these games or these projects,

29:46

it was often tough for people

29:48

outside of the group to know when

29:50

the members were being sincere or

29:52

when they were playing out some strange Discordian

29:56

uh for fans of the Illuminatus trilogy,

29:58

Discordian social

30:00

experiment or their fantasy you

30:03

know. And there's

30:05

another complication because, according to

30:07

the game caller himself, the stroll

30:09

or the students, the

30:12

group doesn't exist. Yes,

30:15

you see, there's no such thing as a

30:17

Finders It's just

30:19

a group. It's a term for people

30:21

who like to hang around me. Oh

30:26

oh, I have a question, sure, and

30:28

all seriousness, um, if

30:31

you recruit someone to join the

30:33

Finder's cult, you get a finder's fee. I

30:36

feel like you're joking. Yes, I

30:40

mean it's a good question. Now it's it's a dumb question.

30:43

But no, that's crazy.

30:45

Is that? Where is this quote from? It's

30:47

from Mary and Petty. He

30:49

said the final group doesn't exist. There's

30:52

there's just a group of people who think I'm

30:54

cool. That's hang out with literally

30:56

what it is though you just described, that's

30:59

what the is. He's

31:01

at the center of a group that like people

31:03

that like to hang out with them. That's what a cult leader is.

31:06

So that leads us to our next question,

31:08

is this in fact a cult?

31:12

We'll find out right after a word from our sponsor.

31:21

We're back. Okay. So it's been a

31:23

little bit tedious, I think at times, for

31:26

at least on my part, to keep saying

31:28

the organization or the

31:30

group. But that's because

31:32

information about this group it

31:35

was originally contradictory and it remains so

31:37

today. It is true the police

31:39

did find photos of group members

31:41

and their children wearing white robes

31:44

while slaughtering goats at the group's farm

31:46

in Virginia, But

31:49

however, supporters and critics

31:51

of the group alike now agree that

31:53

these strange rights were an example

31:55

of Petty's love for playing games rather

31:58

than an expression of pay again beliefs.

32:01

And I want to see what you guys think of

32:03

this explanation. So a former member

32:05

of the Finders, who again asked to be anonymous,

32:08

explained the famous

32:10

thing that they refer to internally as the goat

32:13

Gate as occurring because

32:15

of this reason, those

32:18

goats were vicious, the

32:21

group decided to eat them rather than keep

32:23

them as pets. To then create a

32:25

dramatic scene with robes and so on,

32:28

was to impress upon the kids the seriousness

32:30

of killing an animal. Huh,

32:36

that's just like that's sort of one of those going

32:38

around your behole to get

32:40

to your seahole kind of situations. You know.

32:48

It's interesting though, to me, I find

32:51

something in that to be almost

32:54

genuine. Really like, yeah, killing

32:56

a goat, You don't think that's sort of like the dude from Arrested

32:59

Development who like is like the missing arm

33:01

and they use him to teach a lesson. You don't think that's

33:03

just comical and it's like extremity to

33:05

teach such a simple lesson. Well, I could see

33:07

that it is, but I see that

33:10

for sure. But I also see, uh,

33:12

the you know, the ancient practice of killing

33:15

animals for our food that humans have been

33:17

doing since we've been able to carry

33:19

a weapon or even you know, attack

33:21

something with our bare hands. Um,

33:24

knowing that at

33:26

least knowing that this thing has

33:29

life and it is giving us further life.

33:31

That's that old, old, old belief. I can

33:33

imagine trying to honor that in some way, if

33:35

you truly are going to kill one of these goats

33:38

that you've had on your property, on

33:40

your farm, or wherever it is that you're existing,

33:43

Um, trying to impart that

33:45

knowledge, that ancient knowledge onto

33:47

these children by

33:50

having a ceremony. I could see

33:52

that, thinking, yeah, yeah,

33:54

it's I think the way they explain it

33:56

sounds contradictory,

33:59

like what was that? You know? It

34:02

sounds like they're going

34:04

from their b hole to get to their seahole, but

34:07

also sounds like they're being a bit a hole about

34:09

it, you know, because

34:11

they're they're easier ways to explain that. As

34:13

Patch Adams, the American physician, points

34:16

out, he knew Mary and Petty pretty

34:18

well, there's

34:20

another phrase for this, and it's not It's

34:22

not a Satanic ritual. It's

34:25

farming. You know what. I mean it's

34:27

ranching Patch Adams. It

34:29

was this guy's buddy, as portrayed by Robin

34:31

Williams in the delightful children's Filmses

34:35

Hunter Doherty, Patch Adams. I

34:38

can't. I feel like you buried the lead on this.

34:41

This is crazy. He just has some input on

34:43

it. Yeah, Uh, primarily

34:45

because he thought the press

34:48

was getting carried away with their reporting

34:50

of this due to that aforementioned

34:52

satanic panics. So he came to his aid in some

34:55

respects, I would asked about it and helped

34:57

the kids hopefully. Well that's right that

35:00

I don't know. I know, I don't. I don't want

35:02

to gamble on speculation there.

35:04

I don't know. It would be nice Patch Adams cheese,

35:07

It would be nice, Dr Adams. Um.

35:09

But here's the thing. You'll notice that we're

35:11

we're adding stuff in defense of this group,

35:13

and then we're saying but also we're

35:16

just alternating back and forth. So here's

35:18

our new But also it

35:20

turns out the Finders had a history

35:22

of run ins with the law and

35:26

multiple times. Yeah,

35:29

there's a former Finders Finders member

35:31

who said that members of the group used uh

35:34

calls like I guess a cold call

35:36

of some sorts and letters in a

35:39

campaign you could call harassment against

35:41

Arlington County Juvenile Court Judge

35:44

Andrew Ferrari awesome name

35:46

in three when Ferrari

35:48

ruled that a child of the former member

35:51

should be separated from the family and placed

35:53

in a group home. So the whole thing came

35:56

about when I guess a child

35:58

was going to be taken away from the group right, and

36:00

this guy Ferrari was like, yeah, that's that's

36:02

what we should do. Ferrari said that he received

36:05

calls in his office and his home from

36:07

several members of the group we're talking

36:09

about the finders here, and uh,

36:12

these members would argue that the child

36:14

was being in some way deprived of

36:16

his freedom. And you

36:19

know, in

36:21

a way, I guess kind of

36:23

that kind of is happening. But it's the

36:26

um it's the job a

36:28

lot of times of these courts to make sure that

36:30

the child's best interest is thought of right

36:32

and not of the family. And this whole

36:34

concept of depriving the child of his freedom.

36:37

But anyway, the the judge said, they didn't

36:39

threaten me. The attitude was, how

36:42

could you be so unconstitutional, which

36:45

again like almost

36:47

has a point. Again, that's not illegal, either

36:49

you know, to express your dislike

36:52

or your disagreement with a

36:54

particular policy or a case

36:56

decision. However, it is

36:58

harassment level, it could be

37:00

harassment. It was on the level that occurred here. And

37:03

the explanation from the Finders

37:05

is not particularly satisfactory because

37:08

in some cases they tried to say that

37:10

they were using

37:13

humor as

37:16

a as an approach. They have an emphasis

37:18

on stuff that they consider humorous,

37:21

which I don't think

37:23

a lot of people would agree

37:25

with. But but

37:27

beat as it may, they did.

37:30

They did have a harassment campaign

37:32

with that one guy, Judge ferrari Uh.

37:34

They also had another case in Colepepper,

37:37

Virginia, lawyer obtained

37:39

a court order preventing the Finders from

37:41

harassing them about a divorce case

37:44

because he when he represented

37:46

a former member during that case.

37:48

The lawyer's name was John Davies, said

37:51

the Finders had really

37:53

freaked him out using letters and phone

37:55

calls. Then there was a third

37:58

case where another remember

38:00

the group, said his tires were slashed

38:03

after he broke up with the

38:06

their whole shenanigan.

38:08

He quit the game. Cults don't take kindly to

38:10

being broken up with, sort

38:12

of like leaving the mob or something. You know, yeah,

38:15

always a member, we're

38:17

getting or not ever. I

38:20

mean you can the doors always open

38:22

one way right there, like Hotel

38:24

California, like yeah.

38:27

But one

38:29

member described

38:32

this as less of a cult and more

38:34

of an organization that started for dropout

38:36

professionals who just didn't know what to do with their

38:38

lives. Said, I've got my job, got

38:41

my my spouse, by two point five

38:43

kids, and I see the rest of my life playing

38:45

out in a very predictable way.

38:47

I'm not happy. Let me go do something else.

38:50

But according to this member,

38:54

as utopian as this original

38:56

ideal was eventually soured

38:58

and the organization took a bad turn

39:01

in the early nineteen eighties. There

39:03

was a person who was a second in command

39:05

of the group named Barbara Sylvester, and

39:09

when she was in her forties in nineteen

39:11

eighties, she died at the

39:13

Finder's house after she did not receive

39:16

any medical assistance for pendicitis,

39:19

and this apparently made the

39:22

student the game caller um

39:25

very gloomy, and there was

39:27

a shift, a fundamental shift in

39:29

the tone of the group. So

39:31

the Finders became increasingly

39:33

secretive and hostile and

39:35

arrogant toward outsiders,

39:37

non members, and that's according to some former associates,

39:41

members engaged in long

39:43

self criticism sessions, exposing

39:47

painful emotional inadequacies to the

39:49

group. Members even cut

39:51

themselves off from seeing relatives

39:53

and friends, which is typical called

39:55

like behavior. Um and former associates

39:58

found themselves shunned or treated

40:01

brusquely if they left

40:03

the group. Like we said, it's very hard

40:05

to extricate yourself from these kind of situations. You

40:07

get treated brusquely. Now, brusquely, that's

40:10

not nice. That's your vocabulary word

40:12

for the day. It is. I mean, it basically means

40:14

they were a little short with you, that's

40:17

right, you know, communicating in monosyllabic

40:20

texts like with an angry girlfriend,

40:22

or they were terse another vision.

40:26

Yeah, it's true. And that's something that's

40:29

unfortunately common in a lot of

40:32

a lot of groups that people would describe

40:34

as cults, and in some groups

40:36

would be considered more mainstream religions.

40:39

You know, if you're if you're out, you

40:43

are no longer part of the

40:45

society, and you are treated as an

40:47

outsider. You're but a squirrel. Oh

40:51

nice, I see your reference. We are

40:53

doing pretty well with these callbacks and references

40:56

here. I you know, if you if

40:58

you were catching some of those things were throwing,

41:01

we appreciate it. So

41:04

so let's

41:07

look at the problem of child abuse.

41:10

Was this a series of genuine events

41:12

or was this a another

41:16

victim of the moral panic that

41:19

was paralyzed in the US at the time.

41:22

There are abuse allegations, and the core

41:24

of these abuse allegations can be traced

41:26

back to that some of those US Customs

41:28

documents, one filed by Ramon

41:31

J. Martinez. He

41:33

says, and there's a long passage here that we can paraphrase.

41:36

He says that he was able

41:39

to execute

41:41

a warrant at one of their houses,

41:43

and upon execution that warrant,

41:46

he had the run of the entire building. He

41:49

found several people on the premises,

41:52

but only one was definitely

41:54

connected with the finders. The other people were

41:56

just sort of layabouts. And

42:01

he found a room equipped with several

42:03

computers, printers, and tons of documents

42:05

and paperwork. Uh. And here's

42:08

what he said he found in the paperwork.

42:11

Quote. Cursory examination

42:13

of the documents revealed detailed instructions

42:16

for attaining children for unspecified

42:18

purposes. The instructions included

42:20

the impregnation of female members of the community

42:22

known as the finders, purchasing children,

42:25

trading and kidnapping children.

42:29

Uh,

42:32

that's not all they found. They also

42:35

found telex messages using

42:38

m c I account numbers between a computer

42:40

terminal that was believed to be located in the

42:42

same room and others across the country

42:45

and in foreign nations. One

42:47

of these telexes again this, according to Martinez,

42:50

specifically ordered the purchase of two

42:52

children in Hong Kong to be arranged

42:54

through a contact with the Chinese embassy.

42:57

M c I, by the way, was an old telecom

42:59

company. Does anybody remember m CIS.

43:02

Don't they make a T M

43:04

S. I don't know they used to.

43:07

Oh yeah, they went away, and I think no,

43:09

I'm thinking of m c R. That's

43:12

not the same as m c I. N

43:14

c R is still around and they make they make

43:17

automatic teller machines. It's with a

43:19

T. M stands for him. Yeah, they

43:21

were, Yeah, they were

43:23

involved in the regulatory

43:25

changes that led to the breakup of A

43:27

T and T. That's right, right, that's

43:30

right. And Uh, forever, no matter

43:32

how long n c R is an actual company,

43:34

it will always stand for New California

43:36

Republic for in my mind

43:39

because of the Fallout series anyway, that's

43:43

right, right, Yeah,

43:46

I love the Fallout callbacks. It's

43:48

a great game. So I

43:50

know several of us listening are saying,

43:53

hey, this is not the Mandela

43:56

effect. You did mention that the CIA

43:58

apparently closed down the investigation.

44:03

Are the Finders? Um? Are

44:05

the Finders an organization that

44:07

is associated with intelligence

44:10

and espionage and spycraft and psy

44:12

ops and purchasing children

44:14

and human trafficking. Yeah, this

44:17

is a fairly common

44:20

allegation. We run into with a lot

44:22

of splinter religious or spiritual movements

44:24

like Jim Jones and the People's Temple.

44:27

Right is, there's some very strange

44:29

governmental connections there. In

44:31

the case of the Finders, we

44:34

initially would say, why would the CIA become

44:36

involved with some fringe commune group.

44:39

The answer to that is pretty apparent, especially

44:42

if it's a product of the nineties, sixties

44:44

and seventies. They were concerned about possible

44:46

disruptions to the status quo and

44:49

this, look, this sounds like crazy Big

44:51

Brothers stuff that happened with cointelpro.

44:54

It sounds distant, like it's a footnote

44:56

in the recent past. But people

44:59

are being try by the government for being vegan.

45:01

Now. It's like

45:04

William Faulkner said, the past isn't

45:06

over. It's not even past. We

45:09

are living through the same things. It's

45:11

just a matter of time before a lot of that stuff

45:13

gets declassified. So it's not

45:16

crazy that the CIA would show interest

45:18

in some fringe commune group. According

45:20

to Petty, government investigators

45:22

tailed him for at least four years

45:25

back in the nineteen sixties. At

45:27

first they thought maybe he was a big

45:30

time drug dealer, not because

45:32

he was around a lot of drugs, but because he

45:34

never actually used any drugs,

45:36

and so they thought, you know, Heisenberg

45:39

style, the legit people

45:42

don't mess with their own product,

45:44

right, and they're doing some weird things that these

45:46

people seem so odd, and

45:49

how are they subsisting? Must be drug Yeah,

45:52

And then

45:54

they decided, if it's not drugs, he must

45:56

be an active front operation for the CIA.

45:59

So the CIA got contacted. They ran his

46:01

name through a database and they said, nope, he's not

46:04

one of ours. And this irritated

46:06

the heck out of the investigators. According

46:08

to Petty, one of the investigators said, you

46:10

know, I've been working on you for four years,

46:12

and I can't figure out what you're doing. What

46:14

the hell are you doing? I'm

46:17

playing some games. They're detective,

46:20

just playing some games. Mr

46:22

spy Man and a cat and mouse kind

46:25

of situation, you know it. I'm

46:27

just you know, throwing the dice

46:29

and see if I can get a critical D

46:34

and D reference. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Also

46:37

known as Cretty now ye rolling,

46:42

he is named after He has

46:44

taken that appellation due

46:47

to his love of dn D. That's

46:50

most of his songs are metaphors

46:52

for various D and D situations,

46:55

and all of his albums

46:57

are based on previous campaign

47:00

that he has conducted with his dn

47:02

D group. I'm

47:04

just gonna believe you. Hey,

47:07

you know what, you could google it? No, yeah,

47:09

seriously, all right, I'm gonna do what I'm gonna do that right after

47:12

this from our Oh note it's

47:14

not another sponsory. Okay, let's keep going. Like his twenty

47:16

two track double album Forever as a mighty

47:18

long time think about it, Matt oh,

47:22

it's a king. Yeah. No,

47:24

I get he's talking about being like exiled,

47:26

and you know, when you're out of play, when you're exiled,

47:29

you're you're basically off the game board

47:32

and then you can only be un

47:34

exiled. You know. It's not like you can come back from

47:36

the graveyard. I get what he's saying.

47:40

The pieces come together, so

47:43

so speaking in pieces coming together, Petty

47:46

was actually asked about this possible CIA

47:49

connection in one of his rare

47:51

interviews, and we

47:53

have his response, I'm gonna do

47:55

my Petty voice. Yeah, I'm gonna do

47:58

him kind of more like Tom Petty. Oh dude, I'm

48:00

scared how you can do that. Tom

48:02

Petty is a man of many voices. I love his voice

48:04

on King of the Hill. Alright, p Tom Patty, by the

48:06

way, it seemed like a lovely man. Um.

48:09

I just kept open house to a

48:11

lot of the counter intelligence and intelligence

48:13

people. Over the years. I've been reported

48:15

to their security officers probably plenty

48:17

of times for trying to figure out what's

48:20

going on in the world. I've tried

48:22

all my life to get behind the scenes

48:24

in the CIA. I sent my

48:27

wife in as a spy to spy on the

48:29

CIA for me. She was very

48:31

happy about it, happy to tell me everything

48:33

she found out. She was in a key

48:35

place, you know, with the records, and

48:37

she could find out all these things for

48:40

me and my son. Worked for Air America,

48:42

which was proprietary of the CIA.

48:45

There was some connections, but not

48:47

to me personally. I thought Jeanine Garofalo

48:50

started Air America. I didn't know she had any CIA

48:52

ties. Uh yeah, Are America

48:54

actually was front that

48:57

he got that right, Yeah, that's true. They were responsible

48:59

for substand full amounts

49:01

of illegal drugs entering the country.

49:04

Yeah kidding, Yeah, not

49:06

a radio program or anything. It's a it

49:08

was a air a

49:10

flight company, an airplane trip,

49:13

having a company, an

49:15

airline. It was an aline I've never heard at. Yeah,

49:18

it was operated from nineteen fifty to nineteen

49:21

seventy six. Is a CIA front,

49:23

and they would ferry over drugs

49:26

and then you know black bag, black

49:29

budget cash. Well, I feel like a

49:31

fool. Thank you guys for it for

49:33

a pointing out. Well, it's just it's odd

49:35

that he has that connection if it's true.

49:38

And also, lest

49:40

I make Air America sounds

49:43

completely like a drug smuggling operation,

49:45

which it was arguably

49:48

is. They also conducted military operations

49:50

imposed his civilian air carriers. But yes,

49:53

Air America, it is true

49:55

they were a CIA front. He was aware of

49:57

it in his interview and

50:00

just out and out saying that his son worked for

50:02

Air America makes me think that it's not

50:04

true. Yeah, just to be

50:06

honest, if someone worked, I mean,

50:08

those are federal crimes. Yeah, and he

50:11

says it as an aside at the end, like oh yeah, and that

50:13

happened and a lot of And I'm not saying

50:15

he's a cult leader, to be fair, but quite a few

50:17

cult leaders engage in that sort

50:19

of tactic, that rhetorical

50:22

tactic of name dropping things

50:24

casually. You know. It's

50:26

like, well, it's it's

50:28

like my friend Deepak Chopra always

50:30

says, you should give me money,

50:33

you know what I mean. That's a terrible example. And

50:35

I'm sure that Deepak Choper doesn't talk

50:38

that way. But that's how cult leaders manipulate

50:40

people. Yeah, he it's a

50:42

big upping of sorts. Um,

50:45

me and my group were important, we're

50:48

doing big things. But we found

50:50

out we found another quote from another

50:52

writer that showed that, uh

50:55

maybe this, uh this really

50:58

is just a bunch of non sense.

51:02

Yes, according to Wendel

51:04

Minick, the author of Spies and Provocateurs

51:07

and Encyclopedia of Espionage and Covert

51:09

Action, the

51:11

Finders would love you to think they're

51:14

a CIA front, but I would

51:16

say they're really nothing. You're

51:18

going to hear a lot of bullshit on the finders

51:20

because they lie. These are dysfunctional

51:22

adults, but they're all working their asses

51:25

off. They're constantly working on

51:27

some project. If you have a cult,

51:29

the best way to control people is

51:31

to keep them busy, which is true, to

51:34

keep their minds occupy. If you

51:36

have people standing around doing

51:38

nothing and they start thinking. Well,

51:42

it's also true that um

51:45

Petty says that he is intensely

51:47

studied the CIA. He says that it's

51:50

it's not that the CIA is working with him

51:53

or investigating him, so he's fascinated

51:55

by them, which also sounds a little bit self

51:57

aggrandizing. Right, So

52:00

there, there we have it. This is weird. This

52:03

is a weird, weird bag of badgers, and

52:05

it looks like it's gonna disappear from the news

52:08

because the CIA did shut

52:10

down the investigation for one reason

52:12

or another, at least that is until nineteen

52:15

nine three when the Justice Department

52:17

says, uh,

52:20

like six years later, yeah, and it was because

52:22

they they found unresolved matters

52:25

when in relation to the group. Right,

52:27

And this guy Tom Lewis, who was a

52:29

representative from Florida elaborated,

52:32

UM, could our own government have something to do

52:34

with this Finders organization and turn

52:36

their backs on these children? That's

52:39

what all the evidence points to. He went

52:41

on to say that, and there's

52:43

a lot of evidence. I can tell you this. We've

52:45

got a lot of people scrambling and that

52:47

wouldn't be happening if there was nothing here.

52:50

And then also if you look to the

52:53

U. S News, this is a this

52:55

is a source, right, the U. S News, Um, they

52:57

said that some of the Finders, at least according to US

53:00

source that was in an article in the OST News. Uh.

53:02

They said that some of the Finders were listed in the FBI's

53:04

classified counter intelligence files. And

53:06

then later all investigations into the Finders

53:08

were ordered stopped by the Justice

53:11

Department. That's the big player, um,

53:14

as the case was determined to pretty much be a

53:16

national security matter. We've heard

53:18

that before, right, and uh

53:20

it was referred back to the CIA again,

53:24

So that's weird. Right. Also, Also

53:26

we have to point out the hazard of

53:28

anonymous sources. We talked

53:31

about this in past episodes. Oftentimes

53:35

an anonymous source is not

53:37

what it implies

53:40

itself to be. Like for

53:42

instance, when there's military news from anonymous

53:44

sources. It's often leaked by the people

53:46

who are supposed to be keeping

53:48

that secret because they want to signal

53:51

something, usually not to the domestic

53:53

audience, usually to a foreign audience.

53:56

So somebody might be saying,

53:58

well, I can't report this on

54:00

the record because you

54:02

know, the army doesn't want you to know that

54:05

we have these active weapons in

54:07

this part of the theater. Right,

54:10

But that person, that anonymous source is

54:12

like employed by the general, and the

54:14

general said, you know, make sure this gets out.

54:16

Yeah, let it. Let those guys know, let them

54:18

know they're not the only ones that can

54:21

cause headaches in Vertigo with sonic

54:23

based weapons. We just we need

54:25

to we need to uh wave

54:27

a flag real quick, right, yeah, totally.

54:30

So it could be the source is just making things up,

54:33

absolute bologney. It could even be a

54:35

member of the Finders playing an elaborate

54:38

game, a social project. Maybe it's

54:40

another prank. Whoa, I never

54:42

even thought of that. Maybe Petty himself,

54:45

through a proxy, spread this idea

54:48

of the return of the CIA. But we do know,

54:51

according to the customs documents, the CIA

54:53

did it did go in there once. And

54:55

this leads us to

54:58

um the weird inclusion

55:00

or wrap up. So in later years, the Finders

55:03

moved to a town called Culpepper, Virginia.

55:06

They became known for their eccentric activities.

55:08

They walked around they you know,

55:10

they spent a lot of time there. Uh.

55:12

They owned an old theater and they were

55:14

best known for uh

55:17

writing bizarre messages on the old

55:19

theater Marquis. Remember we mentioned

55:21

the Marquis at the beginning of the episode.

55:23

Well, boom boom boom. Now it paid off. These

55:26

were not your typical

55:29

messages. There were there were things that were kind of funny,

55:31

like free money. There were things that didn't

55:34

make much sense, like spycraft, a

55:36

great game where your money is

55:38

there is your life and love m

55:41

hm. And they they

55:43

go on uh for years

55:46

doing this kind of stuff. And Petty lives

55:48

there. He's pretty comfortable. He strolls

55:50

around town just seeing what's

55:53

up, sending people to games.

55:56

And then after his death in either two thousand

55:58

three or two thousand four, the group,

56:00

which may have continued in some way, largely

56:02

disappeared from the news

56:05

from the media, and most reputable

56:07

sources currently agree

56:09

that the Finders were more an experimental

56:12

community made for their own amusement.

56:14

Instead of being nefarious or sinister,

56:17

they were eccentric and weird and

56:19

having fun. And if that is the

56:21

case, and they're not hurting anybody, we

56:23

cannot and should not um

56:27

detigrade people for living life as

56:29

they wish to live it, as

56:31

long as they're not abusing children. Right. And

56:35

however, despite all that,

56:37

despite all that, which is very fair on our

56:39

part, it is still true that

56:42

the CIA did intervene at

56:44

least once in the investigation back

56:46

in why

56:49

we still don't know? That appears

56:51

to be the stuff they don't want you to

56:53

know all

56:56

Why if you are a member of the Finders or

56:59

if you've been a seated with them, we would love

57:01

to hear your take on this. Yes,

57:03

please, do you have a theater somewhere we could visit?

57:06

We'd love to Are you from

57:08

Culpepper, Virginia? Let

57:10

us know have you been through that

57:12

part of the world. We would we would like

57:14

to hear your stories. Um, do you

57:17

have a story of a cult

57:19

or maybe an experimental social

57:21

club that you've been a part of that you'd like to

57:23

tell us a story about. We'll keep it

57:26

anonymous if you want

57:28

us to. Yeah, absolutely,

57:30

you can reach us several ways. You can find us

57:32

on Facebook, you can find us on Twitter, you

57:34

can find us on Instagram. Our Facebook

57:36

group is a great way to bring

57:39

your own perspective and feedback

57:41

from the episode to your fellow listeners. It's called

57:43

Here's Where It Gets Crazy. Our Instagram

57:45

is Conspiracy Stuff Show. You can

57:47

see my own adventures and misadventures personally

57:50

at Ben Bulling. You can check me out

57:52

at Embryonic insider Um, where I post

57:54

pictures of nerdy stuff like

57:57

my cat and um occasionally my kid.

57:59

And you can find me at Kylie Jenner.

58:02

That's just where I like to post a lot of

58:04

my makeup. You are blowing up right

58:06

now, my friend. I mean you

58:09

kind of got more hits than you. I

58:11

really don't care. The egg is, you know, so yesterday

58:13

whatever to Anyway,

58:16

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58:18

call. You can leave a message and you might

58:20

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58:23

three S T D t

58:26

K. That's just an acronym for

58:28

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58:30

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58:33

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58:35

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58:37

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58:40

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