0:01

Welcome to Stuff you Should Know from

0:03

House Stuff Works dot com.

0:11

Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh

0:13

Clark. There's childs to have you, Chuck Bryant, there's

0:15

Jerry over there, and here

0:17

we are doing Stuff you

0:20

Should Know about hoarding. Yeah,

0:23

Jerry's over there under a stack of pizza boxes

0:25

and newspapers. Yes,

0:27

but Jerry proudly displays

0:30

them to anybody who comes into the office

0:32

and makes eye contact with her, which makes

0:34

her a collector of those things. A big difference.

0:37

Well, yeah, I didn't save your hoarder. She's a pizza

0:39

box collector, I got you. She likes

0:41

those greasy after stains.

0:44

Yes, supposedly that prevents you from

0:46

recycling pizza boxes. I think we talked

0:48

about it in one of our episodes before, but I

0:51

think that that's a p s A that bears repeating.

0:54

Yeah, I've never got a final answer

0:56

on that, So I throw mine in the recycling

0:58

anyway. I don't know if that comes up the works or not.

1:01

Is there a spectrum or anything like that,

1:03

or you're like, oh, this one is just so obviously

1:05

loaded with cheese um

1:08

that I I can't possibly

1:10

recycle this. Well, mine are always loaded

1:12

because I specifically request that the pizza

1:14

be delivered face down in the box. It's

1:17

a little weird, but I like it that way.

1:19

It's the way to do it,

1:21

for sure, upside down pizza. Actually, you know what

1:23

I should do is just tear

1:26

the box in in half and at least recycle

1:28

the top. That I think you may have

1:30

just solved the real problem. Yeah,

1:33

alright, I

1:36

think we do need to do a follow up recycling episode

1:38

because I would imagine it's probably advanced

1:41

by leaps and bounds since we last discussed

1:43

it. Yeah, and here in my area

1:45

of Atlanta, they quit um taking glass

1:49

really a few months ago. Too heavy,

1:51

not enough payoff. I think it was just yeah,

1:54

and and or word got out that

1:56

they weren't even recycling it, so

1:58

um sin. Then they have set

2:00

up places around Atlanta, one specifically

2:03

at the Edgewood Target parking

2:05

You know, there's a bunch stuff there, But in the Target parking

2:07

lot, they have these huge glass recyclers

2:10

there. And I meet up with the fellow

2:12

Whinos about once every two weeks. We

2:15

all shamefully toss in, you

2:17

know, dozens of bottles of empty

2:20

wine, so much dead

2:22

yellow tail. Yeah, and we now I don't think

2:24

that stuff. Uh, but we just we

2:26

It's nice. It's sort of like a wine

2:30

meeting so much dead

2:32

Paul Masson, like a wine clatch.

2:34

I'm like, oh, what are you throwing away there? How have

2:37

you gotten any recommendations from those

2:39

chance encounters? It's literally happened where

2:41

we're you know, I would meet a fellow whine.

2:43

Now we're thrown away tons of bottles,

2:46

and then we decide to own our shame and be

2:49

like, hey, this one was pretty good by the way,

2:51

and started a conversation, and then I

2:53

get maced. Yeah you take you take

2:55

the bollow and go huh night train? Haven't

2:57

heard of this one? Right? Okay, that

3:00

try? And I like the handy grip of the bottle.

3:02

I never tried night train. Did you have that, dude?

3:04

It's it's a nightmare, is what it

3:06

is. Yeah. I would drink the like

3:08

you don't even sober up before you get a crushing

3:11

headache from it. It

3:13

comes with a headache, That's what says. Um.

3:16

What would I drink? Um? Mad dog

3:19

mm hmm, Which I mean there's a reason

3:21

they are sold right next to each other. Yeah,

3:23

can you even call those wine? No it's

3:26

not wine. It's wine

3:28

like Prudo gets wine

3:30

like malt liquor is beer. It's related,

3:33

but it's drinking.

3:36

Sure. Remember the Nikey's big mouths. Yeah,

3:39

and cold forty five came in like gigantic

3:42

like bottles. That was one of the biggest attractions

3:45

of it. You know, Yeah, it was expensive,

3:48

man, that would that was our jam for a little while.

3:50

I never got into this, I know what you're talking about. Didn't

3:53

they have like the like a question or

3:55

a trivia thing or something on the underside

3:57

of it, the bottle, the lid, I don't know. Well,

4:00

there were a little green hand grenade bottles,

4:02

little barrels and uh,

4:06

I don't know which came first or after it was

4:08

either. I guess they switched

4:10

to just the regular like uh,

4:14

Coca Cola style twist off cap

4:17

metal twist off, and I think they might. I

4:19

think they did have something underneath it. Act there was

4:21

something under there. Maybe it was like a poker game

4:23

or a card game or you've just won Liberal

4:25

Disease. But

4:28

before that then I think they had these

4:30

really unique poll tabs because

4:33

it was a big fat mouth Mickey's. That's why they called

4:35

it that Mickey's big mouth, so

4:37

they had to have a very unique UM

4:40

bottle cap poll cap that was just

4:42

sort of interesting. Nice Back

4:45

in the day, man, back in the day when

4:47

I was I'm not gonna wrap now, and

4:49

we're now refined with our beverage consumption.

4:53

Yeah, yeah, we are. I only drink cold

4:56

forty five out of a chill glass. Now.

4:58

I got a nice whiskey bar set up at UM that's

5:00

separate from the regular bar. Oh

5:04

wow, with just like rise and

5:07

bourbons and scotches and Irish and

5:11

little additional I've gotten

5:14

out to where I will put in little drops of little

5:17

tinctures and shrubs and things. Oh

5:19

yeah, occasionally. Shrubs are great.

5:21

I made my own ones, and it's

5:23

actually worth the effort. Yeah. My

5:25

buddy Eddie, you know Eddie, he makes his own.

5:29

He actually does it in the in the bottle, but he

5:31

will he'll do like a cherry bourbon or

5:33

an apple like confused

5:35

bourbon. Yeah. Those shrubs though,

5:37

man, uh, it's actually not very

5:40

hard and they last forever because

5:42

what you're doing is basically I don't know if

5:44

it's fermenting or pickling or something, but

5:46

you're doing something to the fruit that

5:48

you're mastrating with the sugar and it

5:51

just lasts forever, and it's just such a nice little

5:53

tangy pop. It's like kim she you gotta

5:55

bury it in your yard for kind of

5:57

it's close to that. Actually, it's

6:00

it's like the Yankee version

6:02

of kim chi, but with fruit and

6:05

you put it in your booze. Well, this is all

6:07

very hoardy, like, well, hold

6:09

on, even before we get into hoarding,

6:11

we still have another tangent to go

6:13

on our earl buds.

6:16

Yeah, yeah, let's let's

6:18

announce it. Okay, So

6:21

Caroline Irvin and Kristen

6:24

Conger seriously, well,

6:26

I know it was it was Conger, but she's

6:28

been since gotten married. She took

6:31

her husband's last name, remember,

6:33

No, of course, Kristen Conger, No, I don't

6:35

know. Something tells me Conger did not take his last

6:37

name, right right. I could see that, because then

6:39

I would no longer be able to call her Congs, which

6:41

I know she loved. That's true, And she was

6:43

probably there the SO Security administrations

6:46

and thinking I can't do this, What about Chuck?

6:49

She thought of that? At any rate, Caroline and Kristen,

6:51

the former host of um

6:53

Stuff, Mom never told You, which

6:56

is now hosted by our pals um

6:58

Emily and Bridget. That's right, right, So

7:01

Kristen and Caroline went off on their own and

7:03

they have now started

7:05

a new podcast and

7:08

this is the this is the great announcement

7:10

here on stuff you should know. That's right. It's called Unladylike

7:13

and uh I have I've heard the trailer,

7:16

so it sounds great and anything they're

7:18

gonna do is gonna be great. They're just they're

7:20

pros. They really like. Uh. I know,

7:22

stuff Mom Never Told You was started with Molly

7:25

and Conger, but when Caroline

7:27

came along, it really just found its true voice.

7:30

No offense Molly and

7:32

U. She just trashed her home office.

7:35

Uh, it's just a great show. And Unladylike is

7:37

is gonna be awesome and and I believe it's got a

7:39

bit of a different flavor with interviews

7:42

and stuff like that, but it is definitely

7:44

going to be dealing with uh feminism

7:47

and women's issues and oh

7:49

yeah, advocacy and uh, their

7:51

their logo is great. It's a big middle finger,

7:54

which is just so them. Yep.

7:56

So they have a site up, but I

7:59

think you can get their guest anywhere you get podcasts.

8:01

That's kind of how it works. But they

8:03

have a site as well called un

8:05

lady like dot ceo super

8:08

British not dot com

8:10

dot ceo. Okay, that's right,

8:12

so best of luck, ladies. I'm sure it'll be great. And

8:14

uh, you were always on our minds and

8:16

in our hearts, so nice

8:18

of you. Good luck Caroline and Kristen. It's

8:21

gonna be great. Now, can we hoard?

8:23

Yes? Long last, well, let's

8:25

take a commercial break show. Can

8:27

you imagine Mollywood trash

8:29

her home office again? So

8:33

we're talking hoarding today. Believe it or

8:35

not, everybody, um

8:37

and I basically

8:40

everyone is fairly well aware

8:42

of hoarding thanks to a couple of high

8:44

profile UM reality

8:46

TV shows about hoarders and hoarding

8:49

UM. And then there

8:52

have also been appearances

8:54

of hoarders in literature. So even before

8:57

it kind of became like part of the cultural

8:59

aware us, it was also already

9:02

kind of there, like everybody thought, you know,

9:04

there's some guy out there who has a house full

9:07

of something that he picked up on the side of the road

9:09

and his it's just accumulated

9:11

and he can barely get around his house. Like

9:13

that was there before. But thanks

9:16

to those TV shows, which

9:18

is actually which actually sprung out of

9:21

the first real research on

9:23

hoarding as its own disorder

9:26

um from the early nineteen nineties

9:28

by a Smith College psychology

9:31

professor named David o'frost and

9:33

then two of his students, Rachel Gross

9:35

and Tamara hardel Um. Those

9:37

three people together actually form

9:40

the basis of our knowledge about

9:43

hoarding the disorder. They took it

9:45

out of the cultural reference, they

9:47

took it out of the realm of Freud and and they

9:49

got it ultimately all the way up into

9:51

the d s M. Five and two thousand thirteen,

9:54

which is about the best you

9:56

can hope for, is an undergrad psychology

9:58

student. Yeah, you get your d SIM tattoo

10:01

mm to two yep

10:04

uh. And I believe those shows. One was called Hoarders

10:06

and one was called Jerry's Pizza Box Collection.

10:09

No, Jerry's a collector. Well

10:12

it was Jerry's Pizza Box Collection, Colin,

10:14

I'm not a hoarder, al right. It was

10:17

a little a little mouthy, little wordy.

10:19

The log line was, if you're looking for a show about

10:21

a hoarder, keep looking. But

10:25

if you like pizza boxes and

10:27

he doesn't speak eight seven,

10:30

central'd

10:32

be very David Lyncheon. Just this mute

10:34

woman walking around, blackout

10:37

bar over most of her face everywhere. She would

10:40

be great. Um,

10:42

all right, so we'll go ahead and get it going with a stat

10:44

here. Back in the day, I

10:46

was statman, remember

10:49

that, of course, So

10:51

I'm gonna reprise that role. Okay, do

10:53

you have a cape still? Oh? Yeah, it's on see.

10:57

Oh yeah, I see it. Probably I couldn't see

10:59

it. You weren't turning the right way. Yeah. Uh

11:01

well, it's a it's a thin cape

11:04

for broadfella. Uh

11:06

So estimates, no one really knows,

11:08

because, like you said, it's very recently

11:10

that it's being recognized as its own disease

11:14

um and not a symptom of another thing, even though it is,

11:16

as we will see later, very much co

11:18

morbid with other other

11:20

issues and mental illnesses. But despite

11:24

the fact that we don't know a ton about the

11:26

stats, there are estimates to say

11:28

anywhere from point four percent two

11:30

as many as five percent of

11:33

high Is this humans or humans?

11:35

Americans? Humans? Ah yeah,

11:38

I think the general population, which

11:40

that would make its prevalence higher than schizophrenia.

11:44

Oh wow, yeah, which

11:46

I actually kind of believe if I stop and think about

11:48

it. Well, the

11:50

thing is, though you don't this

11:53

is and we're going to talk about all this stuff, but it's

11:55

not often the kind of thing that presents

11:57

itself out in public because the people

12:00

are hiding in their houses full of stuff. No.

12:02

No, And one of the things, one of the early misconceptions

12:05

about hoarders that we'll see is that it was mostly

12:07

older people who were hoarding. But

12:10

um, it turns out that they're the

12:12

ones who get thrust into the limelight because

12:15

it's a progressive chronic disease

12:18

exactly. So by the time the

12:21

news media becomes aware of this and

12:23

drags these pour people out into the limelight,

12:26

um, their their hoard has gotten

12:28

very big and they have aged. So

12:32

that's why we initially thought that just

12:35

older people were hoarders. It turns out it actually

12:37

starts far earlier in life. Typically.

12:40

Yeah, like a show about a twelve year

12:42

old with one corner of their room

12:45

too messy. Yeah, just looking at

12:47

it like this is gonna be huge one day,

12:50

and we're joking here, but this is a

12:52

serious mental illness. But we

12:54

we joke about all kinds of things. So I

12:56

don't want anyone to get upset about things

12:58

like that. No, no. If you're new to the podcast,

13:01

go listen to the comas episode.

13:05

Alright, so some of the symptoms of hoarding. Um,

13:08

and we're we're gonna get into also in a bit

13:10

to the I guess

13:13

myths and separating those two is really important

13:15

because it's very easy for someone to

13:18

very dismissively say, oh, they're a hoarder because

13:21

they have a lot of stuff. Um,

13:23

and my family, my in laws,

13:26

well, let me let Steve off the hook,

13:29

specifically my mother in law,

13:32

my grandmother in law, Mary,

13:35

the eldest general of the stuff you should know Army

13:38

and uh, my aunt Sue,

13:41

Sharon, Sue and Mary. They have

13:44

a lot of stuff and we call it the disease

13:46

sort of as a joke. Um, but

13:48

they're well, they're

13:51

not hoarders at all, but they got a lot of stuff they

13:53

have a hard time throwing away, you

13:55

know, the stuff that they had that

13:57

they think someone in the family might want. I

14:00

think that stuff. That's that's pretty

14:02

typical. A lot of people are like that. And

14:04

a lot of people have a basement room

14:07

with a lot of junk in it

14:09

out of being too busy

14:11

or lazy, or maybe just a bit of

14:14

the disease where you just like I can't bear

14:16

to part with it even though I really should, But

14:18

that is not hoarding. Well, so

14:20

my question would be, then have

14:24

you ever seen them and do you feel

14:26

like they have the ability to clear

14:29

out like the attic or donate

14:33

some of the stuff like you can't

14:35

they have the ability to part with

14:37

the stuff. There have been pushes at various

14:39

times, like when they're moving and stuff

14:42

like that. Of course it's a good time to do that. Um,

14:45

it is always a bit of a painful experience.

14:48

But I think, like I said, everyone's got a little

14:50

not everyone. Some people are so unsentimental

14:54

that they'll just back the dumpster up and just empty

14:57

their house into it and say I'll get a

14:59

new drunk But um, it's

15:01

a good way to move, yeah, exactly,

15:04

but they it is a

15:06

little bit of a hard time. And very famously either

15:08

um, Charlie there Emily's

15:11

grandpa who who left us on

15:13

our wedding day. Um,

15:16

he famously passed away with

15:18

like you know, buckets

15:20

have bent rusty nails. But

15:23

he was not a hoarder. He was legitimately one

15:25

of those guys who was like I can

15:27

straighten these and reuse them one day. And

15:29

he believed in the value of just not throwing

15:31

everything away, which is great. So

15:34

let me ask you this though he would he would say

15:36

kind of with pride, like, look at all these

15:38

awesome nails that I'm not wasting, you chump,

15:41

No, not at all. It was just um,

15:44

was he ashamed of his bucket of nails? No,

15:46

he would. He would occasionally get out a nail

15:48

and straighten it and use it, and it was just everyone

15:51

in the family knew, Like you know, Charlie,

15:55

he did grow up in the Great Depression. And as

15:57

we will see that as one of the myths that oh,

16:00

all these people just grow up in the Depression so they value

16:03

things more. That is not the case. There's no tie

16:06

to that. But he is one of those gentlemen

16:08

who grow up in the Great Depression, and

16:11

and I love that attitude. We're in such a disposable

16:13

frame of mind. I think

16:15

that that the depression thing

16:17

has kind of come back for the generation

16:20

behind us, where they value things a

16:22

bit more. Good. Yeah,

16:24

you know, because the disposability of products

16:27

and just everything. Just pulling a dump

16:30

strip to your back door and pushing your stuff out

16:32

as a means of moving. Yeah, we're like, I'll

16:34

just that thing didn't work. Well, I could probably get repaired,

16:36

but screw it, I'll get another one. It's only twenty bucks. Things

16:39

like that, Like it kind of drives

16:42

me nuts. So I'm or, oh, wait, my phone

16:44

has has a new version

16:47

of my phone has just come out. So now the

16:49

company that made my phone is remotely

16:52

slowing my phone down, so I have to throw

16:54

it away and go buy another one. That's definitely

16:56

part of the problem as well. You

16:58

know, it's funny. I can tell really see Grandpa

17:02

Charlie saying everybody gather around getting

17:04

a nail out of his rusty nail buckets, straightening

17:06

it and just driving it right through the

17:08

webbing of his hand as

17:11

a party trick. That's what I thought

17:13

of when when you said, yeah,

17:15

yeah, every once a while he'd get a nail out and straighten

17:17

it and use it. That's what

17:20

we think they know, what were the people that he's a pinhead,

17:23

people that would drive the nail the

17:26

blockhead that's what it was. Blockheads. Yeah, I can't

17:28

believe we did a whole podcast on that. That shows a

17:31

good one too. Um alright, so

17:33

number one on the symptoms though, uh

17:36

is you literally have an inability

17:39

two to get rid of things and

17:41

to stop acquiring things. So you may

17:43

if you go into a hoarder's home, you

17:46

may go into their closet and see a

17:48

wrack of clothes with tags on them

17:51

because they're like, oh, just this is on

17:53

sale. It's such a good deal. I

17:55

feel like I just have to get it, and then it's

17:57

unworn a decade later. Yes.

17:59

So, so the early researchers,

18:01

David frosten is two students,

18:04

um Tamra Hartle and Rachel Gross.

18:06

They initially I think it was specifically

18:09

Rachel Gross and David frost Sorry, but they

18:12

that first study that they did on hoarders,

18:14

they assumed that, um, it

18:16

would be all just junk like stuff

18:18

nobody could possibly want, and they were

18:20

really surprised when they toured some of their

18:23

their study participants homes and found

18:25

like stuff still in the package, like clothes,

18:27

perfectly fine clothes that had never been worn,

18:29

but piles up to the ceiling

18:32

that we're now had now taken over the kitchen.

18:35

You know what I'm saying. That's the difference between being like,

18:38

oh, this is actually a pretty good deal. I could use

18:40

this someday and hoarding. And another

18:43

aspect of that too is if you're buying these clothes,

18:45

sure it might be a good bargain, but these

18:47

are women's genes and you're a man

18:50

and they are there, they're they're like half

18:52

of your size. Yeah,

18:55

you know, they'll buy clothes that don't even fit them just

18:59

just because we're gonna wear what they want. So sure,

19:01

sure, but I'm saying, like, don't even fit you, right,

19:04

um, And they they have good point,

19:06

Chuck, thank you for that, but they they

19:08

basically won't pass up a bargain. It's one

19:10

of the ways that they might acquire something. My

19:13

mom has a little bit of that. Yeah,

19:15

if you're a man and you're dressed in women's clothing, that is

19:17

not a symptom of hoarding. No,

19:19

no, no, And my mom doesn't have that. She has a little

19:21

bit of the like, oh, it's such a good deal, I

19:23

feel like you have to get it. You

19:26

mean, I went through an open house once and

19:29

I've never seen more clothing

19:32

owned not just by one person, by several

19:35

families put together. But it was just one

19:37

lady's clothes and like they had

19:39

built on like an addition to their attic

19:42

and their garage top and that was just filled

19:45

with clothes more close than anyone could possibly

19:47

wear. And we noticed that like some

19:49

of them still had the tags on. Were like, God,

19:52

this lady has so many clothes. Now, looking

19:54

back after researching this, I'm like she definitely

19:56

had a touch of the hoarders disorder.

20:00

I guess she had a little bit of the hordes. Yeah,

20:03

it didn't spill out into the rest of her house,

20:05

so either she it was just a

20:07

touch of it or

20:10

her family was keeping it in check.

20:13

But there was definitely you you

20:15

wouldn't believe me if I if I told you have

20:17

many just sweaters and shirts and dresses

20:19

this lady had. Give me a number how many

20:21

sweaters? Sweaters?

20:27

I know you're one of your superpowers

20:29

of sweater guestimating right, sweaters

20:32

and chili beans. I would say, just

20:35

from what we saw, she easily

20:37

had two hundreds something sweaters easily.

20:40

And those were just the sweaters. Man, that's

20:42

not including like tops, blouses,

20:45

dresses. She had so many

20:48

clothes. Yeah, my friend

20:50

Ryan, I won't say his last name, he

20:53

uh, his dad very famously had ah

20:56

and I don't know, you know what I asked him

20:58

last time I saw him, and I can't

21:00

remember the answer now, but at one

21:02

point his dad had like warehouses

21:05

with stuff, because he's

21:08

like a dream hoarder. Yeah, but I don't

21:10

know if it was hoarding either, because as you will

21:12

see there as we go on, there are very specific

21:15

definitions, and just because you want

21:17

warehouses full of stuff doesn't necessarily mean you're

21:19

a hoarder, you know. Yeah, what

21:21

was his stuff? I don't know,

21:24

huh. I'll find out and

21:27

follow up. But getting back to the inability

21:29

to stop acquiring, one of the key points about

21:32

not getting rid of stuff is they're holding onto things

21:35

with no value at all, like even

21:38

sentimental value, Like when you have stacks

21:40

and stacks of newspapers and magazines

21:43

for for decades and decades. Those

21:46

don't hold sentiment about sentimental value,

21:48

any monetary value unless

21:51

you happen to have like the moon landing stuff in there

21:53

or something. Um,

21:55

you know, it's just just like literally it's junk,

21:59

right, It can be and also be stuff that, like

22:01

as is actually useful and somebody would want

22:03

this unopened, unworn dress

22:06

or something like that, right, So it can go either way.

22:08

But the point is they can't stop acquiring

22:11

stuff. They can't help themselves. That's

22:13

that's part one. Part two, and

22:15

these things are part and parcel with one another.

22:18

Is they can't bear to give any

22:20

of it up, like you said, even if

22:22

it's totally useless, even if it doesn't

22:24

have any actual, real emotional value.

22:27

But that is a big one that a lot of them point

22:29

to, is like they say, well, no, this means a lot

22:31

to me or um.

22:33

Another another explanation or another rationalization

22:36

among hoarders is that like they're they're

22:39

they're just kind of stockpiling. They might need all

22:41

these clothes one day.

22:42

They that

22:45

never happens, right exactly, and

22:48

um. The other one I think is

22:50

that they use it as a reminder.

22:52

Apparently there's a um

22:55

there's a correlation between faulty

22:58

recall or um

23:00

an inaccurate memory or a

23:02

lack of trust in one's own memory and

23:05

hoarding. And so some hoarders

23:07

will say, well, I keep this to remind me that I

23:09

have to do this in the future, remind me to get in touch

23:11

with this person. So they imbue importance

23:14

into all these objects that from the outside

23:17

are junk. And apparently

23:19

the stuff that they imbue these objects

23:21

with is just rationalization.

23:24

It's not necessarily really

23:26

valuable in the way that they feel like

23:28

it is to them. Another

23:30

symptom is that in this one I'm kind

23:32

of curious about we should talk about it is

23:35

is the stuff is disorganized and

23:37

very disorganized. Um,

23:40

However, I would

23:42

think that you could be a hoarder

23:46

and also be very and maybe

23:48

be anal retentive and have everything

23:51

organized. But does that immediately disqualify

23:53

you, From what I understand it does. Yeah,

23:56

you can have a lot of stuff and even very odd

23:59

stuff, and if you organize

24:01

it, that's a huge symptom

24:04

of hoarding that you're not. That's

24:06

a box is not being checked and would probably

24:09

preclude you from a diagnosis of hoarding

24:11

because they think that it has to

24:13

do with your ability and the brain to make

24:15

decisions. It's supposedly

24:18

stems from perfectionism, which we'll talk about.

24:21

But this this inability to make decisions

24:24

about you know, what to keep and what to throw away

24:27

and being so paralyzed by it that you just don't

24:29

make the decision at all, and all this stuff accumulates.

24:32

That also extends to organizing

24:35

and sorting. You can't make the decision

24:37

about what you go where or what goes

24:39

with what? You just can't just you can't

24:42

make decisions when it comes to your material

24:44

possessions. That's a huge hallmark

24:47

of and I think a cornerstone of hoarding.

24:49

The diagnosis. I'm gonna take issue

24:51

with that one officially. Then on the cord, like

24:54

you could hauld literally have every single symptom

24:58

and you just might be like, no, all the new papers

25:00

go here and all the stuff goes here, and

25:02

it's literally caving in on me, and i can't

25:04

get rid of any of it, and I'm ashamed of it, and

25:07

i have no quality of life. Um,

25:09

but I'm anal retentive. Like, so

25:12

I'm officially taking issue. No one cares

25:14

well you, I mean, you make you paint a pretty

25:16

good picture on in that. In

25:18

that sense, I think if you

25:21

if you have stuff organized,

25:24

it's probably not having it's probably

25:26

not taking over your life, maybe financially,

25:29

maybe time wise, but like you could

25:31

still have people over. Um, your

25:33

husband or wife isn't leaving you as a

25:35

result, your kids aren't ashamed

25:37

to bring friends over to play.

25:39

Who knows, but yeah, I

25:42

don't think from what I understand though, as

25:44

far as the psychological community

25:46

is concerned. If you can organize,

25:48

you're probably not a hoarder. I

25:50

think all those things you just mentioned could

25:53

still happen if you're organized.

25:56

Yeah, and this is just my dumb opinion. It's

25:59

it's possible them. I might sort a show called

26:01

Chuck Stump Opinions just

26:03

to follow up each week to this. Yeah,

26:07

I get it all out. Uh

26:09

number three did you get a little justin

26:13

Number three is the hoarder feels ashamed.

26:16

And we talked a little bit about this here and there,

26:18

but that is definitely one of them. It's not

26:20

like you walk into a hoarder's house

26:23

and they're like, have you seen my collection of

26:26

dead goldfish floating

26:28

in bowls? Um, Although

26:30

that'd be a weird thing. Although animal hoarding will get

26:33

to this definitely thing that's like trapesing

26:35

along the line of performance. Are right,

26:38

But this is the thing, is you feel ashamed,

26:41

and that can feed the beasts. So you gather all this

26:43

stuff, you accumulate it, you

26:45

feel really guilty about it, and

26:48

then one of the things that hoarders do is

26:50

it makes them feel better to collect the stuff,

26:52

So then you start hoarding more and

26:55

they and the grabster wrote this one, right,

26:58

So the grabster is said, it's you know, it's really not.

27:00

Unlike an alcoholic. You drink, you

27:02

get ashamed. Do you feel those feelings of shame,

27:04

so you drink to sort of feel better or forget

27:07

right. So like alcohol

27:09

is to an alcoholic or um

27:13

like somebody who eats for comfort,

27:16

these these people acquire

27:19

stuff for comfort or

27:22

like their material possessions are like food to

27:24

somebody who eats um as comfort.

27:26

Right, yeah, and

27:28

but they do feel ashamed of the whole

27:30

thing, Like that's a huge thing. And that's also, like I

27:33

was saying, what differentiates them from

27:35

collectors. Even if you have a collection

27:37

of some really weird stuff, if

27:39

you, you know, want to show it off

27:41

to people and you really value

27:44

it, you you're a collector.

27:47

If you are ashamed

27:49

of your collection, your hoarde um,

27:52

and you don't want people to see it, and

27:54

you know that it's weird,

27:57

but you just can't do anything about it,

27:59

that's a symptom of hoarding. That's one of the

28:01

reasons also why it makes it such a

28:04

terrible mental disorder, because the

28:07

people who are hoarders, they're not they're

28:10

not like off their rocker or something like that they're

28:12

not mentally impaired. They're not

28:14

like out of touch with reality.

28:16

They they are they have enough perspective

28:19

to feel shame about the state that

28:21

their life is in because of these

28:23

material possessions that they can't

28:25

get rid of and can't stop accumulating.

28:28

They can't do anything about it, and

28:31

that's what makes it just such a sad

28:33

disorders. They're aware of this and

28:36

then feel shame as a result. Yeah, they're

28:38

incapable of change. Well,

28:41

I think that I don't know if incapable is the

28:43

right word. But with the right help, they're capable.

28:45

But I think on their own they're generally incapable.

28:48

Yes, well that's what I mean. I'm not saying you

28:50

seek treatment and you still can't stop.

28:54

Uh. And then finally, another symptom is that

28:56

you are it is really impacting

28:59

your life. So um,

29:01

you may have rooms in your house that you can't even

29:03

use anymore, Like I can't take a bath because

29:06

that's where I keep the backing peanuts, or

29:08

I can't use the stove because it

29:10

has seven microwaves that I bought

29:12

that are still in boxes stacked on it. Um.

29:15

And you will a lot of times they

29:18

will like like a snow

29:20

plow, just dig a path through

29:22

their home just so they can get

29:24

around where they can get around. Yeah,

29:26

apparently among hoarders or among

29:28

psychologists who study hoarding, it's called they

29:31

call them goat paths, and

29:34

they can be dangerous too. Hoarders have been known to

29:36

have died sure from there. They're

29:38

walking along the goat paths and this stuff on either

29:40

side just coming down on top of them and pinning them

29:42

and suffocating them. Yeah, and this and

29:45

this is the point to where you talked about where uh

29:48

they impacting your life. They don't

29:51

get out much, maybe because they don't want to leave

29:53

their stuff because they're afraid of family member might

29:55

come over and and take things they

29:58

are hold up. They don't have anyone over

30:01

because of the shame. So

30:03

it's just um they are.

30:06

They're literally trapped by their things, yeah,

30:09

figuratively and and literally. And

30:12

they also um

30:14

their Their houses will also very frequently

30:17

be in disrepair, not just from the

30:19

the collections of stuff taking over rooms

30:21

and just totally changing their meaning, but

30:24

also like if you have a hot water

30:26

heater and it breaks, you're not gonna let some

30:28

repair man come over. You don't know him. You

30:30

don't. He might touch your stuff, he

30:32

might take something, or you

30:35

feel so much shame that you just won't

30:37

even invite a stranger to come in and

30:39

and and fix your hot water heater, so

30:42

they'll just live without hot water forever.

30:45

Um. They may also it's it's super

30:47

sad, man. It were like because of documentary

30:50

television, because the reality television. I think

30:52

quarters have kind of gotten reputation as people

30:54

like, go look at those freaks, you know. Um,

30:58

But if you really start to dig into

31:00

it, and I'm sure some of these shows do this from time to

31:02

time too, it is

31:04

an extremely sad condition.

31:07

It just makes you want to help them when

31:09

you come across him, you know. And then one other thing

31:12

is they're also very frequently in

31:14

debt. Say Ed gives

31:16

the example of, um,

31:19

if their kitchen is just totally covered

31:21

and stuff and they can't get to the oven any longer,

31:23

they have to order take out, which

31:25

is much more expensive than grocery shopping. So

31:27

their finances are very likely impacted

31:30

by the their hoarding behavior.

31:32

Good point. Should we take a break,

31:35

Yeah, all right, let's do it, and we'll come back and talk

31:37

about some of the myths right after this all

32:10

right, So we talked about some of the truths

32:14

UM, and some of the myths are as

32:16

follows, and you mentioned, um,

32:18

well you mentioned the first one that it affects only older

32:20

people. UM. Another

32:23

one is the hoarders are are lazy, and

32:25

that is just not

32:27

true. Um. They in fact, they

32:29

may be very busy

32:32

in there with while

32:35

they may not be organizing, they

32:37

may be moving things around and

32:39

obsessing about it and ore.

32:42

You know, they also might be on the recliner just

32:45

hoping they don't get caved in on. But the

32:47

stuff point is, stuff isn't there because they're lazy.

32:50

It's a mental illness. That's

32:52

a big one. UM.

32:55

Another another early idea

32:57

about hoarders is that the reason a

33:00

horde is because they had some experience

33:03

previously in their lives where they

33:05

came face to face with deprivation

33:07

or scarcity. And so now,

33:10

yeah, the Great Depression, or their

33:13

dad lost his job when

33:15

they were a kid, and like their family really went

33:17

through a hard time. So now as

33:19

a as a UM, in response

33:21

to that experience, they're just trying to get

33:23

their hands on everything they can and they don't want

33:25

to throw anything away. Apparently, that is

33:28

absolutely not the case that that the

33:30

UM science doesn't bear that out at

33:32

all, and then they do think

33:35

that they are connected to some sort

33:37

of difficult event previous

33:39

in life, but it doesn't necessarily have anything

33:41

to do with deprivation UM

33:44

at any point. Like they they

33:46

may they may have been wealthy. I read

33:48

it and Nautilus, I think

33:50

a Nautilus article on hoarding,

33:53

and they profiled this guy who was quite

33:55

well off and he hoarded UM

33:58

and I don't think he had ever or gone through any financial

34:01

hardship, and that's apparently par for the course.

34:04

Well, one of the things that says one of the traumas

34:06

could be excessive discipline, which I

34:09

thought was interesting because Freud and

34:11

I know, we said, it's been mentioned. It's not

34:13

a new thing, like it's been in everything from Dante's

34:16

Inferno to Silas Marner in

34:18

eighteen sixty one, UH, and

34:20

Freud talked about it UH in his

34:22

day. But here's the thing is,

34:24

everyone says Freud was way off UM,

34:28

but he thought it could be as a result of overly

34:30

harsh toilet training, which

34:33

I thought was interesting because

34:35

while that is not true, if it came

34:37

from excessive discipline and

34:40

you were excessively disciplined while toilet

34:42

training. You know, maybe he wasn't

34:44

that far off. Yeah, you're right, he

34:46

probably wasn't. Like I said before, the

34:49

guy was one of the history's great thinkers.

34:52

It's just you shouldn't use the phrase

34:54

anal character when you're

34:56

describing what the problem was with hoarding,

34:59

which he did. He did. But

35:01

yeah, you make a really good point actually that

35:03

he he maybe he wasn't that far

35:05

off. But if it is discipline,

35:08

overly harsh discipline and adolescence,

35:11

I think that's a big one. UM. I

35:13

think the loss of a significant

35:15

other, of a close family member,

35:18

UM, some sort of loss of

35:22

UM love is it

35:24

can trigger hoarding behavior

35:26

and some people or has been known to bring bring

35:29

the disorder on as well. I can see

35:31

that like I lost that thing, but I can keep all

35:33

this like that I can control,

35:36

right, And that also would explain why they tend

35:38

to imbue emotional attachment

35:40

into their possessions, you know, like

35:42

these things are these things equal love to

35:45

me and now I can hang on to them and they're never

35:47

going to leave me. Yeah,

35:49

I'm telling you it's a very sad disorder.

35:52

What another myth is that it's a symptom of

35:55

O c D obsessive compulsive disorder.

35:57

For many, many, many years were just now

36:00

starting to understand more about it, But

36:02

for many years they thought it was either

36:04

just straight up was O c D or

36:07

was just an offshoot of it. UM.

36:10

But like you said, with the D s M,

36:12

it is its own distinct disease, but

36:15

it can be co morbid with O c D

36:18

and other things like anxiety. So

36:20

it's UM, I see

36:22

why people get that confused. You

36:24

know that some study took away the

36:27

criteria for UM,

36:29

took away the hoarding criteria

36:32

from O c D, right, So it just

36:34

gave these people a checklist to determine

36:36

whether they had O c D or not, but took

36:39

hoarding out of the equation, and

36:41

hoarders tended to to not qualify

36:44

for O c D only like six percent of them

36:46

do or something like that. So

36:48

it's connected in some cases, but definitely

36:51

not in all cases. And it's certainly not just an offshoot

36:53

of O c D itself, like you're saying, right,

36:56

Uh, And then finally, and of course, because this

36:59

is a a disease,

37:01

and um, just

37:04

because you finally get a family member

37:06

in there against all LODs to

37:08

clean everything out of there. That does not cure

37:10

you of anything. No, I

37:12

saw that. It just is first

37:15

of all, what a horrible experience that would

37:17

be for the poor hoard. The county

37:19

comes in or some family members come in

37:21

with some tough love and just clear all your stuff

37:24

out. So it's number one, but

37:26

number two apparently they say, Okay,

37:28

well, I've got a lot of space to fill. Now I better

37:30

get to work. Like that's the

37:32

result of it. Supposedly, so

37:35

it's a chronic disease, chronic

37:37

condition, and supposedly recurrence

37:40

of this is a hundred percent

37:44

in all cases without treatment. Yeah. The grabstr

37:46

emailed this woman named Lisa Hale co Um

37:49

sorry, founding director of the Kansas

37:51

City Center for Anxiety Treatment and

37:53

also a junct associate

37:55

professor at University

37:57

of Missouri, Kansas City. So fighting

38:01

hay seeds the

38:04

stacks seeds,

38:06

I think Haycy. Isn't that a derogatory name for Kanson.

38:10

It depends on whether they own it or not. You know, okay

38:13

um, I'm sure we'll hear. But yeah,

38:17

she she said that it approaches

38:20

like that. Is that is straight

38:23

up proof that that cleaning things

38:25

out and while the family member, well

38:27

a county just says they're directive. But while a

38:29

family member might think, oh I've

38:31

helped them, um, you you

38:33

really haven't. If that was your solve, no,

38:36

you, you're probably the Other part of it, too,

38:38

is if you come in there all tough love

38:40

and you need to get your act together and

38:42

you're just being lazy, what's wrong with you? And

38:45

clean their stuff out for them? First

38:47

of all, that's basically abuse. I don't

38:49

even know if you need to qualify with basically I think

38:52

that's abuse of a mentally

38:55

ill person. But secondly,

38:57

um, all you're doing is

39:00

driving that behavior that that's a very

39:02

stressful event, and the the

39:04

um the way they deal with stress

39:07

is through hoarding behavior. So all it's going

39:09

to do is just turn the notch up on the hoarding

39:12

that they're doing anyway, and you can

39:14

probably say goodbye to ever seeing them again after

39:16

that too. Man, what

39:18

a terrible situation. Apparently

39:20

we'll talk about, you know, treatment in a minute,

39:22

but one of the key factors

39:25

and treatment is that the family and

39:27

friends and loved ones of the person who's

39:29

hoarding and now undergoing treatment, they

39:31

have to go through therapy themselves.

39:34

Because it's I'm sure quite

39:36

easy to look at this with disgust, horror,

39:39

um anger, like what is wrong

39:41

with you? Like, I know that that's a natural

39:43

reaction, but you have you can't

39:46

follow through on that. You have to approach

39:48

it from a place of understanding or

39:50

else all you're going to do is trigger the hoarding

39:52

behavior even further. Yeah, for sure if

39:54

you go in their guns blazing with

39:56

your broom and your and your dumpster, Uh,

40:00

you just yeah, it's just gonna get worse. You just

40:02

crumble that person. So, UM,

40:05

what causes this is

40:07

really interesting because UM,

40:10

we don't know for sure, and there are

40:13

they have been everything from UM

40:16

lesions on the brain in certain studies

40:19

that they found um could account

40:21

for it two UH

40:24

chromosomeal defects to possibly

40:26

genetics UM because

40:29

they found that it's uh other

40:31

illnesses or at least that behavior

40:33

is part of other illnesses that are

40:36

definitely genetic, and hoarders

40:38

are more likely to have other family members who are also

40:40

hoarders.

40:42

Of hoarders surveys say that they have a family

40:45

member who's a hoarder, which is way more

40:47

than the general population. Yeah, so we

40:49

have no idea what the really underlying

40:51

causes, but we do know it's

40:53

what's called and this is what um. What

40:56

Hail said who had interviewed, is that

40:58

it is a neuropsychiatric can Asian and

41:01

it is it's all about like

41:03

you were talking about earlier, these processing

41:05

challenges UM not being able to process

41:08

visually, organizationally, emotionally

41:11

and your brain connections aren't aren't

41:13

working right. Yeah, I remember hearing years

41:15

ago like that they would stick

41:17

these these poor people into the wonder machine

41:20

and talk to them about getting

41:22

rid of their possessions, saying like, I

41:24

want you to imagine you know this room, and

41:26

think about all of your newspapers. Now, which newspaper

41:29

do you want to get rid of? And these people would

41:31

experience basically physical

41:33

pain, huge spikes and their levels

41:35

of stress just thinking about this. But when

41:38

you said the same thing about somebody else's

41:40

stuff, they had no reaction whatsoever.

41:42

It's strictly their stuff and

41:45

their attachment to it. And another

41:47

study by David Frost showed

41:49

that when you give somebody

41:52

who is a hoarder something um

41:55

and say this is yours now I think he gave out key

41:57

chains, their attachment to it

42:00

was immediate. It was like right right

42:02

when they knew that they owned the thing and it was

42:04

theirs, they were now as attested to as if

42:06

they'd had it for fifty years, it

42:08

was as important to them. So

42:10

there's a lot of stuff going on in the brain,

42:12

and it does have to do with attachment, decision

42:15

making, finding um comfort

42:17

and de escalation of stress through

42:20

these material possessions as well. Um,

42:23

But they just don't quite know what

42:25

did it? Was it a bad experience as a kid?

42:28

Are are you born with the chemical balance

42:30

that doesn't begin to show its symptoms

42:32

until adolescence. It's just too new,

42:34

Like it only became its own thing in the

42:36

d s M five, which came out in two thousand

42:38

thirteen. But it is

42:40

in the d s M now, which means that insurance

42:42

companies will pay for treatment for it, which

42:45

means that a lot more people are going to be studying

42:47

it than they ever were before. Man, I can't

42:49

imagine anything more torturous

42:52

than being strapped

42:54

in an MRI machine, which is

42:56

already stressful and confining,

42:58

and then having to quick as people on

43:01

anxiety inducing mental illness

43:04

right, like, you know, we're getting rid of this

43:07

thing now, and I'm sure they're they're

43:09

just like want to like bust

43:12

out of that thing, you know. Yeah, it's like

43:14

it's like torture. Yeah, just like

43:16

and it's valuable research. So hats

43:19

off to the people that do that and

43:21

and the people that, like, the people that administer

43:23

it, and the people that are brave enough to go

43:26

in there and and seek that treatment.

43:28

Yeah. Oh yeah, hats off to him for sure. Man,

43:30

literal hats off, because you can't wear a hat in

43:33

an MRI machine. You

43:35

can. You can only wear a mesh helmet. That's

43:37

right. Um. Well, there was one other

43:40

kind of general explaination

43:42

hypothesis that explains hoarding

43:45

um floating around, and that is

43:47

that we all have this

43:49

innate evolutionary instinct

43:53

to gather stuff. Yeah, I really like

43:55

this, Like it's just it's just well,

43:57

it's part of our mammalian heritage.

44:00

And and they think

44:02

that in people who hoard,

44:04

this instinct has basically gone haywire,

44:07

like some snaps connected with another

44:09

synaps that weren't supposed to be connected.

44:11

Now, all of a sudden, this thing that's a natural

44:14

thing where you know, you go to the grocery store, you buy

44:16

some stuff, you keep it in your refrigerator

44:18

for a week turns into you

44:21

can't get enough Sunday

44:23

circulars to possibly

44:26

stave off these feelings of anxiety.

44:29

Yeah, it's cool. Little uh

44:31

story reference was like

44:34

an animal saving food for the

44:36

winter. Do they work extra

44:38

long to prepare for a possibly long

44:40

winter but stay out there

44:42

and are are more more vulnerable to

44:44

getting eaten by the cheetah

44:47

while they're collecting stuff? Or do they say, you

44:49

know what, I'm gonna go ahead and get in the cave. I've got

44:52

enough stuff. Um,

44:54

eventually there will be that long winter and

44:56

those animals will die out, so you

44:59

know, over the course of time, the long

45:01

winter evolutionary trait will be

45:04

the one that's passed on. Yeah, it's

45:06

really interesting. The guy whose paper

45:08

he based that on. You should

45:10

see this paper. Man. It's got like

45:13

sigma everywhere and he's talking about squirrels

45:15

gathering nuts. But there's all these really complex

45:17

math and statistical formula that

45:20

he's got on on his paper. But the the overall

45:22

gist of it is pretty fascinating and it proves

45:25

or it definitely lends credence

45:27

to the idea that it is a naturally

45:30

selected evolutionary trait.

45:32

To gather a lot of stuff. Most

45:35

of us, though, have this cut off point

45:37

where we know, I don't need anything

45:39

more than this, or anything more than this is irrational,

45:42

and people who hoarde definitely don't have that cut

45:44

off point. Yeah, we have a room in our

45:46

house that is full

45:49

of stuff, and it's not

45:51

hoarding. It's we don't

45:53

have a place for this stuff. We

45:57

live in a you know, eighties something

46:00

year old craftsman and

46:02

that you know, those houses just don't have the closet

46:04

space and the storage space. We

46:06

don't have a garage. We do have

46:08

an addict that has us some stuff,

46:12

and in theory, we could probably move

46:14

all of this stuff up there, but most

46:16

of this stuff we kind of need access to more often.

46:19

Um, So we're

46:21

not hoarding, but it's it's just like our

46:24

house is small, and we could go you

46:26

know, the other route and be go a little more

46:28

minimalist for sure, and get rid of this stuff, trust

46:30

me. But um, but

46:33

if you don't want to, you don't want to, well, yeah,

46:35

but I mean it's um, it's a problem

46:37

when we have a guests in the night, which is not

46:39

often because that's our quote

46:42

guest room. I got you you

46:44

know I was gonna say, you guys need to get to

46:46

the container store now, a

46:48

lot of the stuffs and containers. We

46:50

need a container for your containers.

46:53

Uh. And what we do. It's funny when we do have the occasional

46:55

guests, they are invariably very very

46:57

close friend or family member, and

47:00

so they understand we clear the cut path

47:03

to the bed. They're

47:06

like, just dive over onto the bed

47:08

and then when you when you

47:10

wake up and you want to get up, just call us and we'll lower

47:12

the crane. Harness. That's right. But were

47:14

we are adding, not adding onto

47:16

our house, but we're we're finishing the basement.

47:20

So hopefully that will be the solve because

47:23

we're gonna have some lots more good storage

47:25

down there. There you go, being

47:28

bang boom,

47:30

except we're having to do house construction,

47:32

which is the worst for your

47:34

stuff. Um, all right, should

47:36

we take one more break? Yeah, all right, let's

47:38

do that, and we'll come back and talk just

47:41

briefly about the very famous call

47:43

your brothers, and then hit on animal

47:45

hoarding, which could be the saddest of

47:47

all hoarding. All

48:20

right, we would be remiss if we didn't

48:22

mention the Langley Homer and Langley

48:25

Collier. Uh we

48:27

you said you want to do a full show on them. This

48:30

will be the second time we've covered them.

48:32

When did we talking about him before Bizarre

48:34

Ways to Die? Oh wow,

48:37

which is literally a

48:40

nine year old episode. Yeah,

48:43

that is old. So I

48:45

would say we could probably still get away with a full episode

48:47

because if you listen to the one in April

48:50

two tho nine, in the segment

48:52

on the call your Brothers within that five

48:54

minute episode, then you

48:56

would probably appreciate a more flashed op version.

48:59

I would love it. But just the broad

49:01

strokes of it are that Homer

49:04

Callier Um went blind

49:06

older in life or later

49:08

in life, and his brother Langley took

49:11

care of him. Well. Langley was a

49:13

hoarder and accumulated more and more stuff

49:15

and eventually, uh, Langley

49:17

died. He was crushed by his stuff

49:20

and Homer, who was a percent

49:22

depended on Langley Um, starved

49:25

to death in their brownstone and they were found

49:28

separately, uh weeks apart.

49:31

This in Harlem, New York City. And if

49:33

you just look up pictures of this and

49:36

the cruise and the removing of things,

49:38

it's really something else. And there's

49:41

actually a little park there named to call your Brother's Park. Then

49:44

in early two thousand's, uh, there

49:46

was a push to get that changed because

49:49

they were like, we should not name a

49:51

park after these guys. But

49:54

as far as I can tell, let's still name that I tried

49:56

to. I don't think that went anywhere. They

50:00

let's definitely do ah. And in

50:02

fact, I think it was called call your Syndrome for a while too.

50:04

Huh yeah, for a while. I mean they

50:06

were pretty famous because all the New York

50:08

papers got in there and like printed

50:11

all sorts of pictures and they had

50:13

to like just a fascinating story. All

50:15

right, Now, we might as well finish on the saddest

50:18

of notes, which is animal

50:20

hoarding. And um, we're

50:22

not talking about Well, it could be

50:24

Crazy Cat Lady, but not

50:26

necessarily. I think she's an archetype

50:29

of animal hoarders. Right,

50:31

So in this case we're talking about and

50:34

I know you've seen stories probably

50:36

on the news here and there. Um,

50:39

these are people that that hoard animals

50:42

to the extent where it's

50:44

just like the other stuff. It is.

50:47

Their house is often filled with feces

50:50

and smells of ammonia, full

50:53

of maybe fleas and ticks. Can't

50:55

have people over uh

50:57

and and it's one of the saddest because

51:00

as it's these people

51:02

can't bear They think they're doing the right

51:04

thing. Yeah, writing these animals,

51:07

but they're not because these animals almost

51:10

time are very much suffering. Yeah.

51:13

Yeah, it's it's like hoarding. But you

51:15

know, your your newspapers and

51:18

plastic grocery bags don't suffer

51:21

with animal hoarding. The hoarder suffers, and

51:23

the animals suffer as well because no

51:25

matter how great the intentions

51:27

of the animal hoarder are, and

51:30

apparently that is the one of the basis

51:33

of animal hoarding, is that they really

51:35

do have the best of intentions. They

51:37

feel like they're rescuing the animals that US

51:39

wants. They're taking them into their home.

51:41

Yeah, they're they're feeding them, they're

51:43

caring for him. The problem is is they can't

51:46

stop acquiring them, so it reaches

51:48

a point where the animals they

51:51

can't possibly there's not enough hours

51:53

in the day to properly care

51:55

for all the animals. And even

51:57

if you had help and

51:59

you um, you had

52:01

the money to buy food

52:04

and and um veterinary

52:07

care for all these animals, there's

52:09

still a huge factor in that these animals

52:11

are living very close together in

52:13

ways that they should not be, that's not natural

52:16

for them, So they're stressed out all the time.

52:19

Yeah, and another one of the hallmarks

52:22

could be not always, but a lot

52:24

of times these are people that are um

52:27

left alone in life, either from being

52:29

widowed or divorced, or just

52:31

their their family has gone, or

52:34

they just may have a trouble interacting

52:36

with people. And these animals uh

52:38

in this article you sent, and they call it a conflict free

52:40

relationship, And they surround

52:43

themselves with this thing because it's it's

52:45

filling them with something that they can't get

52:48

oftentimes out of humans, right,

52:51

which is unconditional love. The

52:54

problem is, again it is

52:56

very sad because there's that extra component,

52:58

the extra very important component and of suffering

53:00

animals. But and when people

53:02

hear about this stuff, you just immediately like

53:06

like kind of hiss of the people who

53:08

who do this when you hear about it on the news

53:10

and don't really know what's going on. But

53:13

again, when you dive into the psychology

53:15

behind it, it's extraordinarily sad

53:17

because these people have the best intentions

53:20

for these animals, and even while they're

53:23

caring for these animals, they are

53:25

they're suffering as well through

53:27

this indecision like do is

53:29

do I love this dog or or is this one

53:31

my favorite? Or should I adopt it out? And they just

53:34

can't decide, so they just avoid the decision

53:36

and just acquire more and more animals, again

53:39

to the detriment of all of the animals involved.

53:42

Yeah, and just like with regular hoarding,

53:44

um removing these animals because

53:47

by the time you see it on the news, it's probably because

53:49

um that the county is in there

53:52

and animal control is in there and you see

53:54

them these sad, sad stories where they're

53:56

literally taking out these like dogs

53:59

clearly suffering malnutrition or cats

54:01

or whatever, and um,

54:03

that does not solve the problem. You know, they have to

54:05

seek therapy. And just like

54:07

with with object hoarding, UM,

54:10

if you're a family member confronting

54:13

them being angry, even

54:15

though this one is probably even tougher to not be angry,

54:17

if you're an animal lover, you need to

54:19

just keep that in check and try and be compassionate

54:22

and help them so you can help the animals

54:24

as well. So there are some

54:26

stats on this animal thing. Where where did you get this? Where

54:28

was this from? This is a good article, man, I

54:31

wish you hadn't asked, I'll tell you by the time you're done

54:33

with the stats, all right, UM, I'll just tick

54:35

through a couple of these. Every year, thirty

54:37

five hundred hoarders

54:39

animal hoarders come to the attention to the authorities,

54:42

two fifty animals affected each

54:44

year. This one is really sad. Of

54:47

animal hoarders have disease, dying, or dead animals

54:50

on the premises at the time.

54:53

UM that can be code more of it. Up

54:55

to four actually is about of

54:57

the time. UM. Object hoarders are

54:59

also hoarding animals. UM.

55:02

And like I was talking about being being

55:05

lonely or widowed perhaps or divorce,

55:07

seventy percent of animal hoarders UM

55:10

who the authorities know about are

55:13

females or single, widowed,

55:15

or divorce. So the thing is

55:17

is that's skewed differently

55:20

for some reason. Apparently, if you just go out

55:22

and sample the community, hoarding is

55:24

pretty much evenly divided among

55:26

men and women. I'm not sure why we

55:28

typically think of them as women, but apparently

55:31

for animals are in general in general, well

55:34

this is animals specifically, so okay,

55:36

I guess there may be some sort of deeper

55:40

compassion from women. I don't know who

55:42

knows, but I don't want to, uh to

55:44

undermine the efforts of the Anxiety

55:47

and Depression Association of Americas.

55:50

Of course, whose sight this came from. Yeah,

55:52

thanks very much. Uh those great stats,

55:55

good website. Yeah. So let's talk

55:57

real quick about treatment of all kinds

56:00

of hoarding. Um, that's a big one, is they

56:02

Family intervention and

56:06

loving support is a huge part of it

56:09

because hoarders apparently don't initiate

56:11

treatment themselves even though

56:13

they know that they're suffering. Typically, Um,

56:15

but apparently talk therapy is proving

56:18

to be the best treatment for hoarding.

56:20

And that's where, uh say, a cognitive

56:23

behavioral therapist talks you

56:25

through your own beliefs about

56:28

things like, well, you know what will happen

56:30

exactly if you have to give away

56:33

your your plastic grocery bags, and

56:35

that they make you say it out loud, and when

56:37

you say it out loud, maybe there's a little part of your brain

56:40

that's like, wait a minute, that does sound a little cookie

56:42

And maybe they said, well, really, what you just

56:44

said, even if they did happen, even

56:46

if that negative outcome did happen, is

56:48

that really as as bad as it

56:50

sounds? In reality, and they just kind

56:53

of talk you through your beliefs while at the

56:55

same time basically dragging

56:57

them out into the open so that

56:59

they're not just to your head anymore. They're out

57:01

there and you kind of have to evaluate

57:03

them in a different way speaking with

57:06

this trained professional. Yeah, and I would

57:08

imagine they, uh,

57:10

it's probably a ghost slow thing, like maybe

57:13

next week you bring in something that you care about

57:15

and we're gonna we're gonna get rid of it together.

57:18

Um. I doubt if it's like they have some talk

57:20

therapy and then they just go through and

57:22

clear the house out. It's probably very gradual

57:25

thing to heal someone of this. Yeah,

57:28

but I think it is gradual, like you said, and

57:30

against family has to support it because

57:33

you know, they may give the person. They

57:35

say, like your therapist knows exactly how

57:37

you feel. Every Thursday at two o'clock, you

57:39

know, I mean you're there for an hour, Um, probably

57:42

more than that if you are a diagnosed toward er

57:45

and you're undergoing treatment. But the

57:47

point is it's not an impatient

57:49

treatment. You go back home afterward

57:52

and they give you homework. And if

57:54

you're a chronic hoarder, you're probably not going

57:56

to do the homework. So you need to have family

57:58

saying, well, didn't doctors, so and so say

58:01

you needed to start to clear this room out

58:03

this week and just just kind of be

58:05

there and know what's going on and support

58:08

the treatment as well, and not just leave them

58:10

to their own devices. Yeah. And the hoarders

58:12

that have no family and support

58:14

system, those are the ones that are just so

58:16

tragic because they're the least likely

58:19

to get help and seek help and

58:21

uh, you know, potentially die

58:24

very kind of sad, lonely life surrounded

58:26

by their stuff. Yeah. I think those are the ones

58:28

that are the ones you see on the news, the ones

58:30

that don't have family and friends anymore. Yeah.

58:33

So I guess the upshot of all this, chuck is that

58:35

if you know a hoarder, um,

58:38

maybe go be nice to them and see if

58:40

you can help them out, because they are most

58:42

likely suffering calm passion.

58:45

Yeah, there you go. If you want to know

58:48

more about hoarding, you can type that word in the

58:50

search bar bring up this excellent article by

58:52

Ed Grabanowski on how stuff

58:54

works dot common. Since I said that it's time for a listener

58:56

mail, short

58:59

and sweet is warning called this because cracks

59:01

me up occasionally when someone is just cracked up by

59:03

some dumb thing, we said,

59:06

I know this one. Hey, guys, you made my day once

59:08

again. I spent December listening to Christmas music.

59:11

Me too, by the way, Oh man, I was done

59:14

in week one. Yeah I can.

59:16

I can muscle through generally for

59:19

the most part, because

59:21

eventually and we can go. It wasn't

59:23

the Christmas spirit, just Christmas music

59:26

this year. I was like, I can't take this

59:28

at all. Yeah. Yeah, Eventually I have to say,

59:30

all right, and we need to like turn Radiohead

59:32

or something. And that's why I go to because

59:34

she'll go she can listen to radio Head. Yes, He's

59:36

like, I love Radioheads Christmas album.

59:39

Oh my god, can you imagine? Um

59:43

Now, I'm just hearing various versions

59:45

of that in my head. Very

59:50

nice. Um. So I spent

59:52

December listening to Christmas music, so I got behind

59:54

on my podcast. I'm currently listening in reverse

59:57

to December. I was just striving to work listening

59:59

to Cake and I almost had to pull over because I was

1:00:01

laughing so hard at the conversation about oven doors.

1:00:04

Uh, Josh or I'm sorry,

1:00:06

Chuck, do you have a window in your oven door?

1:00:09

Josh, of course what am I communist? Between

1:00:12

that and Chuck baking in this dishwasher, you

1:00:15

two made this a perfect day. I

1:00:18

gotta say I cannot wait to see you next week again

1:00:20

in Portland. My stuff,

1:00:22

you shnow bingo board is ready travel

1:00:24

safe and that is Jin Hunt Jin. By the

1:00:26

time this comes out, we will have just been in Portland

1:00:29

and um, maybe we have even met you. Yeah.

1:00:32

I hope you enjoyed the show. I hope everybody

1:00:34

in Portland enjoyed show. And as a follow

1:00:37

up, I don't know if I officially said, oh, I'm

1:00:39

glad you're saying this. I think I posted on Facebook,

1:00:41

but I definitely do not have an oven uh window.

1:00:44

No, Chuck is officially a communist.

1:00:46

He has an oven without a window, and I've

1:00:48

never seen anything like it before. It's like a tank.

1:00:51

It's great. Yeah, it's a good look an oven.

1:00:53

I don't want to see that jump cooking. Okay,

1:00:57

Well, if you want to get in touch with us to let us know how

1:00:59

we correct you up. We love hearing about

1:01:02

that. You can tweet to us. I'm at

1:01:04

Josh um Clark and s Y s

1:01:06

K podcast. I also have a website

1:01:08

called are you series Clark dot com.

1:01:11

You can hang out with Chuck on Facebook dot com,

1:01:13

slash Charles W. Chuck Bryant, or

1:01:15

at slash stuff you Should Know. You

1:01:17

can send us an email the Stuff podcast at

1:01:19

how stuff Works dot com, and, as always, join

1:01:22

us at our home on the web, stuff you Should

1:01:24

Know dot com.

1:01:29

For more on this and thousands of other topics,

1:01:32

is that how stuff works dot com.