0:00

Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve

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camera. It's ready. Are you welcome

0:06

to Stuff you Should Know from

0:08

House Stuff Works dot com?

0:15

Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh

0:17

Clark and with me as always as Charles W.

0:20

Chuck Bryant, which makes this stuff

0:22

You should know the podcast because

0:25

Chuck and I are the hosts of that hostesses

0:28

no hosts, yep, Chuck,

0:31

Yes, how are you? I'm great,

0:33

man, How are you? I'm fine. It's

0:36

you and I and Matt our guest producer

0:38

Maddie and alone in this entire building.

0:41

Yeah. This it's uh, the Friday before Memorial

0:44

Day. Yeah, Friday afternoon even and

0:46

it's pretty empty

0:48

in here, Yes it is. There's lots of

0:50

echoes that we're gonna have to adjust for and post.

0:54

Do we do post anymore? Is this like basically

0:56

this live to tape? At least

0:58

we're not getting a hateful stay or

1:00

since we walked through the office. Yeah,

1:02

it's refreshing, so

1:05

Chuck, as you know, I grew up in Ohio.

1:09

I was hoping you've mentioned this. Well, I grew up in

1:11

Ohio. Your hopes are are

1:13

fulfilled. Well, another reason why well,

1:15

Um, it turns out I recently learned

1:17

from this article on how the underground Railroad, how

1:19

the underground railroad worked. We talked

1:22

about how this is gonna be problematic. Um

1:24

that an estimated half

1:27

of all underground railroad workers.

1:30

Um, we're from Ohio

1:32

or lived in Ohio. We're part of Ohio. I had

1:34

no idea that, but reading that it makes

1:36

sense because that was such a part of

1:39

my um upbringing as a child.

1:41

Everybody's house that was built

1:44

in like the nineteenth or eighteenth

1:46

century had like an oh, this is where

1:48

they kept the freed slaves in the underground

1:50

road road. Everybody's house had like a little spot

1:53

that supposedly was part of the underground

1:55

road heritage or some

1:57

real some were um are

2:00

believable than others. But normally

2:02

it was like a public building or like a National

2:04

Historic registered building that like they gave

2:06

tours to that was part of the underground

2:09

railroad. But like everybody's house

2:11

like had like a little spot

2:13

in the basement where like, yes,

2:15

consumably human beings could stand

2:17

here and and uh you know, hide

2:20

out. But yeah, I see, I grew up in Georgia, so that

2:22

we didn't have those talks no, And apparently

2:25

in this article the author

2:27

points out and I don't know where she got this, but

2:30

um, that there's

2:32

there's still blemishes on families

2:34

who were known to have helped slaves

2:37

on the underground road road in the South still

2:39

today. I don't know if

2:41

she's talking about I thought that was completely out of left

2:43

field. It was I grew up in and

2:45

have never heard anybody be like, yeah, that guy

2:47

that lived down the street, their family used to hide

2:50

slaves. Yeah,

2:53

that that's not true. So so, um,

2:55

but you you were familiar with the underground railroad

2:58

before this article. I was, But

3:00

it's a good time to point out that not

3:03

nearly enough, because black history

3:05

is so glossed over in

3:07

American schools except in

3:09

February, except in February, and

3:11

it's still even in February that I went through

3:14

all my schooling with just knowing like there

3:16

was an underground railroad and Harriet Tubman

3:18

ran it and that's it. Period.

3:22

Yeah, never learned about Malcolm X.

3:24

I think dread Scott may have been mentioned briefly,

3:27

but yeah, it's very sad. Yeah, and hopefully

3:29

that's changed some since then. Well

3:31

for the listeners who had similar experiences.

3:35

Um, we're about to remedy that because

3:37

we're gonna tell you not only how it worked,

3:39

we're gonna tell you in so much detail that you could conceivably

3:41

go start your own right now, right. And

3:44

there are some still around today. Yes.

3:47

Human trafficking is the new word

3:49

for UM slavery basically um

3:52

where it usually it's forced into

3:55

sex work right

3:57

um. And there are groups who are dedicated to

4:00

freeing sex workers from

4:02

fourth labor. They're called Polaris,

4:05

which is renaming of the North Star.

4:08

Yeah. Um. And then and others.

4:11

We should do a podcast on human trafficking.

4:13

I think we have a good article on that

4:16

that Molly wrote, if I'm not mistaken. Oh

4:18

really yeah, okay, you're ready,

4:20

Yeah, let's do it all right, so chuck. Um.

4:23

Basically, the the origins of

4:26

the underground

4:29

railroad, which was the network by

4:31

which escaped slaves ran

4:34

along to freedom, almost always to Canada

4:36

if they were going north. As it turns out, UM

4:40

probably started before

4:43

the eighteen twenties. Um,

4:46

but it couldn't have possibly been called the underground

4:48

road road until after the eighteen twenties because

4:51

the actual railroad system wasn't

4:53

invented until them either that or they were like way

4:55

ahead of their time, but it may have

4:57

had some sort of name. And we know that there

4:59

were groups of people who were formed

5:03

for the common purpose of aiding

5:06

escaped slaves to go secure

5:08

freedom, to get out of the South, or get

5:10

out of a slave state into protection

5:13

in a non slave state. Because

5:15

George Washington complained about it in

5:17

a letter in seventeen eighty six that

5:20

he suspected some Quakers that helped some of

5:22

his slaves escape. He was

5:24

probably right on the money, tail, yeah, because Quakers

5:26

were one of the earliest members

5:28

of the underground Railroad and

5:31

they were the um most trusted

5:34

because they were so recognizable and everybody knew,

5:36

hey, Quakers will help you out. Definitely the most

5:38

trusted white people for sure. Um.

5:41

We but we should probably point out, um,

5:44

the reason everybody went to Canada

5:47

was because there was a federal law in the US.

5:50

Right, that's right. What was it called. It was called

5:53

the Fugitive Slave Act of seventeen

5:55

ninety three, and uh,

5:58

it was around since seventeen ninety

6:00

three, but it really got its teeth in eighteen fifty

6:02

when it's strengthened the fines

6:04

and basically made um

6:06

helping a slave escape a federal

6:09

crime, and then uh

6:11

in non slave states as well, and

6:14

uh pretty much

6:16

meant if you were caught as a slave, you were

6:18

going to be put to death and likely tortured

6:21

in a public place. And maybe

6:23

even your slave family

6:25

or friends that you were with on the plantation were

6:28

also punished, even though they didn't try

6:30

to escape. So anyone involved

6:32

in this and even not being involved,

6:34

but being involved by relationship or something like

6:36

that, UM, really had

6:38

a lot to lose from

6:40

this one person making it to freedom,

6:42

which really um is it's

6:45

just very heartening when you look back on

6:47

what these people did. They risked a lot.

6:49

Um in the eighteen fifties stiffening

6:52

of the Slave Act, right,

6:55

Um, if you armed

6:57

a slave, which was routinely done because

7:00

this is dangerous, UM, then

7:02

you were subject to execution,

7:05

no matter who you were, white, black, whatever

7:08

um that was that was punishable by being executed.

7:10

So people who were helping escape slaves

7:13

were putting a lot on the line, right

7:15

Yeah. And and one of the myths, there's a few myths that

7:17

even this article kind of uh perpetuates

7:20

a bit, but um

7:22

rarely or not rarely, but more often

7:24

than not, they were other black

7:27

people or former slaves or current

7:29

slaves helping the other slaves

7:31

on the underground railroad. It was not a

7:33

big happy group of white northern abolitionists

7:36

risking their life to help out the slaves. They

7:38

did that some, but it was usually quakers

7:41

um or you know, like I said

7:44

before, slaves or former slaves.

7:46

Okay, so that's one myth. There's

7:49

a few others. Well, let's

7:51

go through this. What what did it an escape look

7:53

like right along the underground railroad

7:55

during its height in the mid nineteenth

7:57

century. Uh, what would

7:59

happen was free black

8:02

people would send a field agent, what they

8:04

called the field agent um. It was

8:06

a lot of times a minister or a doctor posing

8:08

as like a census taker to anybody

8:10

who could move throughout a community undetected.

8:13

So they would make contact with a current

8:15

slave who supposedly

8:17

wanted to escape, and they had to gain their trust,

8:20

because this whole thing was about

8:22

trust. You really had to trust because

8:25

people would sell out their own own kind to

8:28

gain favor with with the master sometimes,

8:30

so sometimes you couldn't even trust your fellow slave,

8:33

so you really had to gain their trust as the field agent

8:35

and then they would eventually, once that trust was gained,

8:38

arranged for the escape from the plantation

8:42

to travel to the

8:44

first safe house to a

8:46

conductor. Actually, I'm sorry,

8:48

they passed along to the conductor who would take you

8:51

to your first station. Yes, and

8:53

that was the beginning of the journey,

8:56

right. And the station was basically somebody's house

8:58

usually yeah, um, and the

9:00

head of the household as a station master. And

9:03

that was somebody who was putting

9:06

his life, in the life of his family's

9:08

on the line, feed and housed

9:11

and hide this person for a little while. Um,

9:13

possibly set him up with the disguise, which

9:16

um they got fairly Um.

9:21

Yes, there's there's a story

9:23

of one in a UM apparently with a

9:26

seminal work on the Underground

9:28

Railroad appropriately titled The Underground Railroad,

9:31

written by Wilburt Sea Bird

9:33

right, and he talks about how, um,

9:35

a black woman was basically

9:38

made up to look like a wealthy white

9:40

woman and to complete this disguise,

9:43

was given a white baby, um

9:45

too for her journey.

9:47

Yeah. So people were, you know,

9:49

fanatic about this. I read

9:52

another one, UM, a couple from Savannah.

9:54

Um. The

9:56

woman was the daughter

9:59

of the slave, her slave owner and

10:01

her mother was a slave,

10:04

a house servant ever, UM. So she

10:06

was light skinned, so they had her

10:08

pose as a frail,

10:10

aging white man, and

10:13

her husband posed as like a you know,

10:15

a loyal servant slave

10:18

UM on their journey all the way from Savanna to

10:20

I think Philadelphia or Boston. UM.

10:23

But yeah, that was kind of harrowing. Apparently

10:25

they were almost found out a bunch of times. Yeah,

10:28

so I can imagine, like just trying

10:31

to escape through the woods is scary enough,

10:33

trying to escape disguised in plain

10:35

sight has to just be nerve racking,

10:38

you know, especially the lady with a white baby,

10:40

because I imagine that whoever might have found

10:42

her out would not have been too happy about that at

10:45

the time. At least along the

10:47

way if you did maybe encounter a train

10:49

conductor who found you out but was

10:51

willing to keep his mouth shut for money,

10:54

you needed money. Most slaves didn't have

10:56

money because they were not paid um.

10:59

And uh this was I

11:02

guess at the station. The station master

11:04

might also hook you up with some money that came from what are

11:07

called stockholders UM. And

11:09

stockholders were probably wealthy abolitionists

11:11

who didn't really want to get their hands dirty.

11:13

But we're happy to support the cause

11:15

financially. True, right,

11:18

yeah, And I didn't get I mean, were they just people

11:20

who supported the cause basically financially,

11:23

yeah, but you know obviously in their in

11:25

their hearts as well. Uh,

11:28

now I know what you mean. Though they didn't risk you

11:30

know, walking people through the woods. No. And

11:32

abolitionists, despite you know, they're they're

11:35

desire to end slavery

11:37

were frequently accused,

11:40

and rightfully so in a lot of cases of

11:42

you know, saying, well, we we think slavery

11:44

is vomitable, but you're freed,

11:46

and that's great, but go live over there. We

11:49

still want to just have our very lily white parties

11:52

and lives and all that. Um.

11:55

And there were a lot of abolitions like that.

11:57

So I would imagine that just giving

11:59

money two people to

12:01

use for bribes or for travel or

12:04

you know, to support these station houses

12:06

probably really you know, hit home. It's the

12:08

same thing today, like people don't go help

12:11

like, say, the homeless, you're resolving your guilt, they

12:13

give money to, you know, organizations

12:16

that actually deal with the homeless. I think that

12:18

this was very similar to that. I think you're probably right.

12:20

Uh, runaways, um

12:23

usually didn't travel alone, although again

12:25

I read somewhere else on on one of the websites

12:28

that a lot of times they were alone. Um,

12:30

But when they weren't, they would have a conductor guide

12:32

them to the next station, usually about

12:34

a day away. They didn't want to make it

12:36

like, you know, a three day journey because it just you

12:39

know, you you probably don't have tons of food and water, and it's

12:41

just more dangerous the further you're going, right, not

12:44

between station houses. The journey itself

12:46

to freedom last days, weeks,

12:48

months. Yeah, each each station was about

12:50

a day away. Ideally they

12:52

would follow the north Star. Yeah, that's that's

12:55

why that one, um modern hilarious.

12:58

Yeah, that's why it's called that circle.

13:02

When the clouds were out. Um, there's

13:04

the old trick of looking where the moss

13:06

grows because on tree trunks, moss

13:09

usually grows on the north side, and you

13:11

wanted to be headed north. There were instances

13:13

where because they made it a very zig

13:16

zagging route usually you know, they didn't want to make it

13:18

a straight line. So it made it easier to track, but

13:20

it also made it easier to get

13:22

lost as a slave. It did. And

13:24

actually there's a sidebar towards

13:27

the end of this talking about quilt patterns

13:30

and there are codes embedded within. I

13:34

I found a substantial amount

13:36

of it. Rele see, I found stuff saying that was like

13:39

mythical that in the songs. Check

13:41

out um os black history

13:43

dot com. They have this list,

13:46

this key of like what all of these

13:48

different quilt patterns are and what they meant.

13:50

Um two slaves who came upon

13:52

a quilt and one of them was this

13:55

um kind of zigzagged X. It's

13:57

called them the drunken Path

14:00

And basically it's saying like going his zigzag

14:02

pattern because there's guys out

14:04

there's slave hunters around, and if you

14:07

say turned started walking south,

14:09

they would be less likely to suspect that you were

14:12

an escaped slave if you look like

14:14

you were purposefully walking south, because

14:16

what slave walk south? That's where the south

14:18

is, right, right? But I mean,

14:20

if it is made up, this guy did a good job of perpetuating

14:23

it because it's very interesting. Well, even

14:25

in here it says it's it's one

14:27

of the well known legends or not. They just don't

14:30

know because a lot of this stuff, and it's good

14:32

that you bring that up. A lot we don't

14:34

know about because the underground railroad was secret,

14:37

so we don't know about a lot of the places. We

14:39

don't know a lot of the routes or the people who

14:41

worked there, or who actually started

14:43

it. Oh and Josh also I

14:45

mentioned the moss on the trees. Clear knights

14:48

were better to see the stars, but traveling in the rain

14:50

was pretty good too, because fat

14:53

white plantation owner probably wanted to be inside

14:55

by the fire when it was raining

14:57

and not chasing after his slaves.

15:00

So let's talk about um

15:02

the laws. We we mentioned it

15:05

kind of specifically UM earlier

15:07

about some of the I guess the punishment

15:09

that that could befall anyone helping

15:12

somebody, right, Um, And

15:15

in see the

15:17

Fugitive Slave Act, UM

15:20

basically created the first laws that said this

15:23

an escape slave can be gone and gotten

15:26

legally. Right. But there

15:28

were slave states and there were non slave states,

15:30

and the non slave states said, well, yeah,

15:33

that's a great law, and you do whatever you

15:35

want down in the South, but we're not really going to

15:37

enforce it, and when we do, it's going to be very

15:40

light. Well, in eighteen

15:43

fifty, this thing got a lot of teeth, um,

15:45

like you were saying, and the fines were

15:48

that were stepped up. The penalties were

15:50

harsher execution. UM

15:53

was it was a lot more UM

15:55

doable, I guess. And then um,

15:59

it also became illegal for slave hunters to

16:01

walk into a free state, a

16:03

non slave state and be like, Hey, that

16:05

black guy right there, I think he's an escaped slave.

16:07

He should come with me to anybody

16:10

he could legally claim it without having to justify

16:12

even if they were free men. Yes, um.

16:15

And apparently there were rumors of like slave

16:17

traders like luring um,

16:20

young black kids in

16:22

free states onto boats and then

16:24

like taking them off to the Deep South. It's like, what are

16:26

you gonna do? How are you gonna find these people? There's

16:29

no documentation like this. Um.

16:31

So basically the North came

16:33

to really resent this change

16:35

in the law in eighteen fifty

16:38

because people who were complacent living

16:40

in non slave states suddenly we're

16:42

kind of having slavery imposed upon

16:44

them a little more. And then the dread

16:46

Scott case like you mentioned earlier, that

16:49

really sealed the deal and really got

16:51

abolitionists. UM.

16:53

I guess their their roles expanded

16:55

tremendously after that. And then as

16:57

a result, also the underground railroad

16:59

became much more organized

17:02

yeah, that is dread Scott v. Sandford,

17:05

and uh. It was famous because

17:07

dread Scott, a slave, sued

17:09

for his freedom for himself and

17:11

his wife and his two daughters, and

17:14

on the grounds that they lived quite

17:17

a bit of their lives in places

17:19

like Wisconsin and Minnesota, in these

17:21

outlying Northwest territories that or

17:23

northern territories that had where

17:26

it was illegal. Slavery was actually illegal. So he

17:28

sued on those grounds, and in one of probably

17:31

the worst Supreme Court decisions in the history of this

17:33

country, they decided because

17:36

the panel was full

17:38

of Southerners. The panel Supreme

17:40

Court justices were a

17:42

lot of Southerners, and they ruled it Black

17:44

people were not or people of African

17:46

descent were not citizens of the United

17:49

States, free or not, they

17:51

are not citizens. Therefore they cannot sue

17:53

for their freedom right. They

17:56

don't have any rights, so they can be basically captured

17:58

and taken to yes, a

18:00

life of slavery again. But if it hadn't been

18:02

for the dread Scott case, we

18:05

may never have well we may have, but it really

18:07

sped up the process of the Thirteenth Amendment

18:09

in the Emancipation Proclamation, and hence

18:11

the Civil War and hence the Civil War, and

18:13

some of his descendants still live in St. Louis

18:16

today. Well, shout out

18:18

to the Scots of St. Louis.

18:21

UM and Chuck, we said that this this um

18:24

precipitated the Civil War. The underground

18:26

railroad helped move it along. The dread

18:28

Scott case. It it basically these

18:31

things, Um, Northerners

18:33

actively subverting federal

18:35

law. UM. And

18:38

the South economic cloud really

18:40

ticked the South off the

18:42

the South imposing its

18:45

views on slavery on the North through this

18:47

eighteen fifty strengthening and the dread Scott

18:49

case. UM,

18:51

it really ticked off the North. So

18:53

this division was was Um.

18:56

It's very much part of what led

18:58

up to the Civil War. Yeah, pencil any even

19:01

I thought about ah

19:04

nullifying the Fugitive Slave Act. They didn't

19:06

like it so much, But then they decided, you know, a better

19:08

way to do this. It's probably to be subversive

19:11

and to support things like the underground railroad on

19:13

the down low, rather than cause

19:15

some big political snake write a check. Exactly

19:18

right. Um. So we

19:21

say that because the Civil

19:23

Wars. Whenever

19:25

you ask a kid, you know why the Civil

19:27

War happened? So slavery. I

19:30

mean, that's a that's a big part of it. But that's why

19:32

it's not just slavery. It wasn't like the North

19:34

was like, slavery is wrong and we're gonna

19:36

go to war with you over it, or the South was

19:39

like, we love slavery, We're not

19:41

part of you any longer. Although

19:43

the latter I've heard recently was um much

19:46

closer to the point that the South was

19:48

perfectly happy with succeeding creating its own

19:50

country and basically creating an economic

19:53

empire based on free labor, that

19:55

that took over the entire Caribbean, and

19:57

that the Southern US.

20:00

Yeah, I wish I was more of a civil war. Buff. I'm

20:03

glad you're not. Chuck. Yeah, they're I

20:06

wouldn't say obnoxious, but man, do they

20:08

know a lot about the Civil War and they like correcting

20:10

people too. Yeah, and we're going to hear

20:12

from them, so Chuck.

20:15

Um. When you did finally make it

20:17

out along this this route um up

20:19

to the northern the extreme Northern

20:21

States, the northern part of the

20:23

Extreme Northern States, and to

20:25

Canada. Um,

20:28

it could take days, weeks,

20:30

months, It could take twenty four hours if you happen

20:32

to have the money and the

20:34

gaul to ride a train, or if you live

20:36

in a border state. Yeah, which

20:38

apparently is why a lot of slaves

20:40

never escaped from the Deep South. It

20:43

was longer ago, and they didn't. They wouldn't

20:45

have taken the underground railroad which went exclusively

20:48

north. I believe they would have gone to Florida

20:51

or to Mexico. Never knew that. So

20:53

Mexico in eighty nine outlawed

20:55

slavery and became active in

20:57

protecting slaves who escaped

20:59

to Mexico. Yeah. Native American Indians

21:02

go figure, we're very empathetic.

21:05

They were probably like, join the club,

21:07

my man, come on in almost literally

21:10

chuck so in Florida in

21:12

Spain said

21:15

we're issuing a decree here that says

21:17

any any slave or Native

21:19

American who leaves an English colony

21:22

and makes it to Florida is a

21:24

free Floridian, a free

21:27

a free member of the Spanish crown. Right right.

21:29

All we want from you is that you convert

21:31

to a Catholic convert to Catholicism,

21:34

and become a member of the military for a

21:36

prescribed amount of time, right um,

21:39

And in return, you're a citizen

21:41

here, right. So that's why Florida attracted

21:43

a bunch of people. And the reason they did it was specifically

21:45

to attract people from um

21:48

England, the English territories like Georgia

21:50

or South Carolina, because they wanted to jump

21:52

start the economic engine, but they weren't going

21:54

to do it on slavery. Right. I

21:57

wonder what impact that has today.

21:59

I wonder if there are more are African American Catholics

22:01

in Florida proportionately because

22:03

of that. Well, one of the impacts that it had that's

22:05

still around the day are the Seminoles. The Seminoles

22:08

were a recent tribe that started

22:10

in about the eighteenth century um

22:13

based on displaced Creek Indians

22:15

who made it to Florida to take Spain up on their

22:17

offer and escaped

22:19

slaves. And now there's a division

22:21

in the Seminole tribe between Black Seminoles and

22:23

Red Seminoles, and it's not they don't always

22:25

get along. But during this time,

22:28

the Seminole Indians came

22:31

up because in a lot of cases, black

22:33

slaves, freed slaves or escaped slaves

22:35

would come up to an Indian Indian sentiment, lived

22:37

near it or be absorbed into it and

22:40

that's where the seminoles came from. That's pretty cool,

22:42

didn't it. There's really one jerk in this whole

22:44

thing, and that's that's

22:48

Yeah, our ancestors. They were

22:50

white Northerners too. It's not all in the

22:52

South, white jerk,

22:54

white Northerners probably.

22:56

Uh yeah, Anyway, I'm just always

22:59

stick up for the South. Well, think about it that there

23:01

were an estimated two thousand to three thousand

23:04

underground railroad workers

23:07

there. There are a lot more people in the US and

23:09

the North and the South than that at the time. Buddy.

23:11

Yeah, that's a good point. Uh. It is interesting

23:14

though to me that you said Canada, because that

23:16

was where many of them ended up. And I never

23:18

knew that. I never knew that. And it made sense

23:21

because why go to

23:24

Pennsylvania, even though they're sympathetic to a

23:26

certain degree, when the Fugitive

23:28

Slave Act still is hanging over my head and

23:30

somebody could turn me in for some dough if they wanted to. Yeah,

23:33

let's just go to Canada where they don't

23:36

care and they don't have those laws. Plus,

23:38

I mean, it's not like you're gonna just stop in Detroit.

23:41

You're gonna be like, oh no, I'm gonna keep moving to

23:43

Canada. So

23:46

we were saying that there there was some

23:48

involvement by some people. There was UM

23:51

separate involvement, disconnected involvement,

23:53

whatever. But some of the people, some of these

23:55

abolitionists UM and freed slaves

23:58

UM and escaped slave who have made lives for

24:00

themselves UM formed in these

24:03

northern non slave states and enclaves

24:05

of where where of an

24:08

escaped slave can feel very free, like Boston, Philadelphia,

24:11

UM, I think New York. Um. They formed

24:13

these things called vigilance committees. Right, Yeah,

24:15

it's very nice. They

24:17

provided like some protection for them,

24:20

uh, try to get them work, try to get them a

24:22

place to live. And so

24:24

you know, it's just sort of like, hey, now you're

24:26

you're safe now, and we're gonna help

24:29

you set up life as an

24:31

American. Yeah, and get

24:33

something that everyone in

24:35

this country should be born with, which is freedom.

24:38

Right. And here's a credit card to enslave

24:41

you in a different way that

24:43

came later and that touched

24:45

all races. It did, so,

24:47

Chuck, there's um one one person

24:50

who kind of rose above

24:52

all others as far as the underground railroad

24:54

went. And her name was Harriet Tubman. She

24:56

was, she wasn't. It is still referred

24:58

to as the Moses of for people. Yeah, it

25:01

is not a cliche to bring up Harriet

25:03

Tubman, as you know, like, of course you're gonna

25:05

bring up ry Tubman. Of course we

25:07

are, because she was the Moses of her people,

25:09

and she was an escaped slave from Maryland, and very

25:11

sadly I went back to get her family

25:14

and helped them escape. Found her husband

25:16

had a new wife, and he was like, yeah,

25:18

um to stay here. Yeah,

25:22

and she wasn't too happy with that, clearly,

25:25

so she reportedly books

25:27

say, um kind of hardened her a

25:29

little bit, which in the end helped her

25:31

because you sort

25:33

of needed a bit of a hard heart

25:35

to lead people on the underground railroad. You didn't

25:38

need whiners and criers

25:40

and people that would draw attention and make noise.

25:43

Yeah. Apparently she would threaten to kill people

25:45

if they didn't shut up. Yeah, like, quiet

25:47

down, I'm trying to get you to freedom. Just

25:49

shut up about it was her was her motto,

25:51

officially, I think, And she was individually

25:54

probably the most successful uh

25:56

conductor on the underground railroad, right,

25:59

Yeah, I think uh at least seventy

26:01

slaves um that she led to freedom

26:04

to New York and Canada personally thirteen

26:06

journeys, and these are long trips.

26:08

We'll think about it. Also, she's an escaped slave.

26:10

She goes back into slave states

26:13

thirteen times to guide

26:16

people out. She

26:18

bad, She's a big bad mama. She

26:20

Uh. She went on to serve as a spy,

26:22

as a scout, and a nurse for the Union Army

26:25

and received no military wartime pension

26:27

for that, even though she was Harriet Tubman

26:30

and um went on to sell

26:32

fruits and vegetables door to door. You're joking,

26:35

and wrote a book and lived off profits

26:37

from her book. She actually made money off of which

26:39

is good the US

26:41

as a Yeah,

26:45

so, Chuck, you want

26:47

to talk about how many people were let out? We

26:49

were. We We mentioned Harriet Tubman l at

26:51

least seventy personally. UM

26:53

and estimates very wildly as

26:55

to how many people escaped. UM.

26:58

As we said, the heyday of the underground road

27:00

road was eighteen twenties to the eighteen

27:03

sixties day. UM.

27:06

Some some people maintain about a hundred

27:08

thousand people escaped, which is

27:10

that's huge. UM. On the

27:12

other end, UH, the journal

27:14

Black Studies estimates of between eighteen thirty

27:16

and sixty UM, only about two thousand

27:18

people escaped via underground road

27:21

road. The National Park

27:23

Service settled somewhere in the middle and

27:25

says, yeah, let's say a thousand per year. But

27:28

again it's very secretive. People

27:31

have no idea who was who, whether

27:34

a house really was a stop. There are some

27:36

places that are most decidedly UM

27:39

parts of the underground road road that are still

27:41

around today, like the Dobbin Horse Tavern

27:43

and Gettysburg, Pennsylvania has movable

27:46

bookcase that people used to hide in. It

27:48

was a house at the time, UM.

27:50

But because of the secrecy, because

27:52

of the success of it of it, UM, we

27:55

we have no idea you know, who was a part

27:57

of it, who wasn't. And that's pretty

27:59

neat, I think. But there's the

28:01

National Park Services really spent

28:03

a lot of time and effort and money so far UM

28:06

figuring out, you know, where

28:09

the underground railroad ran and who is

28:11

a part of it, and what buildings were going to preserve the

28:13

buildings and there's a there's actually a bike um

28:16

trail that you can ride I

28:18

think, or something like that along

28:21

established identified underground

28:24

railroad routes. Yeah, pretty cool.

28:26

You know you. I just wanted to point out when

28:28

you said the our checkered

28:30

history, America's checkered history. I

28:32

still feel England's stank on this.

28:35

Yeah, that was early enough to wear. It wasn't

28:37

like you know, rednecks from the south this. These

28:40

are still like English fops doing this stuff.

28:43

So I blame England, You blame

28:45

England. I'm trying to figure out when my my

28:47

line is drawn and when

28:49

I'm saying this was America because even after

28:51

the Revolutionary where it was still just people from England

28:54

living here. Okay, so

28:56

England is your fault. Take

28:59

that to England and it's

29:01

Canada the big hero to you and this. Yeah,

29:03

of course, man, you know that's still a

29:06

territory of the English crown. Yeah

29:09

to you on that one, pal, I don't know what to think.

29:11

Um so wait, wait before we go, we

29:13

have to mention John Brown. We talked

29:15

about how like a lot of people were like,

29:18

here's some money, I'll be a stockholder in the underground

29:20

road road and impress my friends. John

29:22

Brown walked the walk he lived in

29:25

like freed black colonies. He

29:27

um, if he didn't do it himself,

29:29

he oversaw the murder of five unarmed

29:31

pro slavery UM

29:34

settlers in Kansas, which

29:36

is up for grabs between slavery and in

29:38

a non slavery state. UM.

29:40

And he basically turned into a guerrilla and

29:43

staged raids on pro slavery settlements

29:45

and killed lots of people. UM. And then

29:47

he staged with the raid on Harper's ferry

29:50

uh and was eventually caught

29:52

and hanged for it. But he was as

29:54

far as the abolitionists go, he was

29:56

like, um, he

29:58

he was, I guess you could say equal to Harriet

30:00

Tubman as far as in the abolitionist

30:03

camp where she was in the freed slaves

30:05

camp, she was hands on and did

30:07

it. Did you hear the box car guy who

30:10

who packed himself up in a box and had himself

30:12

ship to Philadelphia? No, did it work? Yeah?

30:14

Awesome. He had like some biscuits and a little

30:17

bit of water and some air holes and

30:19

his I think his nickname is box Car. I

30:21

can't remember his full name. But they, you know,

30:23

opened up the crate in Philadelphia and he climbed

30:25

out and they were like, congratulations, your

30:29

holy can't so the bravery, I

30:31

mean, not just the slaves themselves, people who

30:33

helped I mean, the bravery of these people at the time

30:36

cannot be understated, agreed,

30:38

because you were getting tortured and killed

30:40

if you were caught and all for

30:43

your freedom. That's all you were looking for. Pretty

30:46

heavy stuff. Yes, So, Chuck,

30:48

if they want to learn more about the

30:50

underground railroad, they should type

30:53

in underground railroad in

30:55

the search bar, how stuff works dot com rang um,

30:58

and then of course brings up listener email.

31:02

And you know, I bet the ladies from stuff

31:04

you miss in history class have probably done one

31:06

on this already, and so I would

31:08

seek that out for another angle, because sometimes

31:11

we double up, and it's always good to hear different angles

31:14

on these things. And they're a great joke too,

31:16

and you can compare it word for word eventually by

31:18

comparing the transcripts on the blogs. Right,

31:21

They're like they were a lot more factual than Chuck and Josh.

31:24

All right, Josh, I'm gonna call this critical

31:26

email from Katie. We don't read a

31:28

lot of criticisms much, but this was very

31:31

specific, so I thought we would. Hi,

31:33

Chuck and Josh, I'm a new listener, but it recently listened

31:36

to about sixty of your shows. I

31:38

am thirty one years old and work as a film cruiser.

31:41

You guys have really grown on me slowly.

31:44

The concept of the show is the best part. I

31:46

think there are a few things that keeping or keeping

31:48

you guys from really going big and would like to share my

31:50

thoughts. First, I think

31:53

the podcast are a bit slow and have a few too

31:55

many personal jokes every time Chuck

31:57

has a personal story to go along with the topic. This is

31:59

the least inner, painting and interesting. Your

32:01

personal relationships to the topic are mundane.

32:04

Sorry, this should be cut. The banter

32:06

is good. You are clearly smart and witty, and

32:08

that is enough to keep the listener engaged. Josh,

32:11

your intros are so boring. Why

32:13

not mix it up and or cut the small

32:15

talk? I fast forward past it every

32:17

time. And I think your listener mail

32:19

is the worst part of the podcast. I think

32:22

you lose at least half, if not more, of your listeners

32:24

at this part. Save that stuff for the blog.

32:27

The podcasts themselves need to be solid and tight.

32:29

The production value fails in comparison

32:31

to This American Life or Planet Money. For these

32:34

reasons, I would highly suggest getting

32:36

a new producer taking

32:38

pot SATs at Jerry. That's just so wrong.

32:41

You need a makeover big time. You

32:43

need new music in your intros and throughout

32:45

the show, perhaps sound effects

32:47

and more out of studio commentary. Some

32:49

of my favorite podcast our Saunas,

32:52

Hangovers, Cremation, Sharpless,

32:54

Reincarnation, Mummies, and Altitude basically

32:57

go be Radio Lab. I listened

32:59

to your Guatemala pieces while I was traveling

33:01

Guatemala last week. Pretty cool

33:04

in hopes of supplementing my education about the

33:06

country while traveling there. But you failed miserably.

33:09

Actually, she says it failed miserable. I

33:12

get the point though. Uh. They were my least

33:15

favorite podcast you guys have done, and

33:17

I think you genuinely wasted your listeners

33:19

time with your personal, pointless stories

33:21

about your free vacation. I was shocked

33:23

to learn how small your perspective of the world

33:25

is, considering how often

33:27

you both write and research about the world. Your

33:30

impressions of Guatemala sounded like you've never left

33:32

the South. Uh. They were naive

33:34

and not worthy of two hours of my time. On

33:36

the other hand, it was fantastic

33:39

to listen how volcanoes work while

33:41

climbing volcanoes in Antigua. This

33:43

is what you guys are best at. And you need to stick

33:45

to this, but it needs to be better. Seriously,

33:49

you have mastered the podcast medium,

33:51

but there is so much potential yet to be tapped.

33:53

And she says taped, but I guess

33:55

she needs tapped. I hope you guys continue

33:58

to make great podcast and that you really

34:00

up the production value. Thank you, Katie

34:03

M. P s. I happen to own a house

34:05

in Turkey and have spent much time in Turkish

34:07

baths. You define them incorrectly in your

34:09

song and podcast. Who

34:12

is that? Katie? Katie M.

34:14

Thank you Katie for the tips. We appreciate

34:16

the insight and

34:19

thanks for listening. We don't know

34:21

why, but thank you for listening. All right,

34:23

Well we've mastered the medium, okay, except for

34:26

like the fifty points. Well, if

34:28

you have in any pointers

34:30

for us or tips, we want to hear them. We're always

34:32

open to that kind of thing, So shoot

34:35

us an email at Stuff

34:37

Podcast at how stuff works

34:39

dot com.

34:45

Be sure to check out our new video podcast,

34:47

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34:49

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