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This delightful program is brought

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websites for beautiful beverages like kombucha

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dog dot com. I guess kombucha

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chicken chimmy chonga. I never really

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wanted chimmi chenga. I'd just like to ask, how's

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the chicken chimmy chonga. There

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Baldwin called, are so delightful. Welcome

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to you stuff you should know Groomhouse

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Stuff Works dot com.

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Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh

0:41

Clark. There's Charles W. Chuck Bryant. Jerry's

0:44

over there, post nasal drip

0:46

some sort, and that makes this

0:48

stuff you should know. It makes this

0:51

room the infection

0:53

zone. Oh, Jerry, are

0:55

you sick? No, she's not sick. Are you

0:57

no good? She's just snotty. That's

1:00

fine as long as she's not sick. Are

1:02

you sick? No? Man? How

1:04

are you feeling great? Good? You're

1:07

tired? Are you well?

1:09

Your dad all dads are

1:11

tired, aren't they. That's nothing

1:13

to do with it. Oh yeah, why

1:15

are you tiring? Just Uh,

1:19

I didn't get enough to sleep last night. Okay,

1:22

but not because dad's We'll

1:25

leave it at that for building a wall.

1:27

Let's back away from that question, shall we

1:30

instead? Chuck take

1:32

my hand and let's wander off into the

1:34

forest. Uh this

1:36

is pretty neat. I gotta say. I

1:38

was excited about this because A

1:42

it's dense like a forest.

1:45

B it's cool like

1:47

a forest. And see,

1:50

it provides a great canopy over

1:52

our heads. It does a canopy

1:54

of knowledge. I reverse engineered that last

1:56

one. Oh yeah, man,

1:59

he is on a roll. We're gonna get a few. We're

2:01

gonna get some stuff wrong on this one. I don't know that's

2:03

correct. I feel like anytime we tackle something

2:05

that's in any industry

2:08

like this, the people in the industry are going to

2:10

have way better current information than we

2:12

will. So I think it's funny because I picked up on the

2:14

same thing, not just with the industry,

2:16

but also with the battle

2:19

over UM forestry

2:21

rights. This is a minefield, my friends. It

2:23

really is. Because I I

2:26

this This UM article was written

2:28

a number of years back and it's very

2:30

friendly to the forestry

2:33

industry. Yeah, it's not like

2:35

extraordinarily conservation minded

2:38

um, as far as I'm concerned. Yeah,

2:42

Well, I don't think I had to drop

2:44

a bombshell. No, I don't think I had a slant. I

2:46

saw it is pretty neutral. I don't know man

2:48

like um. But here's how confused I was.

2:51

And we'll get to this later. But these

2:53

initiatives and certification programs,

2:56

we'll get to later. I didn't know

2:58

like which one I should like and not like. At

3:00

the end, I can tell you, well, save it

3:03

all right? Does that need somebody to

3:05

tell me what to like and not? Like? I can tell you

3:07

just save it all right. I'm saving. Let's

3:10

talk about forests in general, Chuck,

3:12

Yes, uh, well, let's talk

3:15

about our country a little bit in

3:17

the United States. Well, even more, let's

3:19

talk about our continent, North

3:21

America. That's right. When settlers

3:24

came over here, there was a lot of trees. There

3:27

were a lot of trees. Do you remember in

3:29

our pigeon episode, like the

3:31

idea that there are so many

3:33

what was the passenger pigeons that that died

3:35

off that were just driven

3:37

to extinction because of humans. I'm

3:40

pretty sure was pas I got confused

3:43

in the episode about which it was very confusing.

3:45

Thing. And they think that ultimately

3:47

the pigeons had been managed by

3:49

Native Americans who were wiped out by

3:52

disease, so that when the first Europeans really

3:54

came along they saw tons of pigeons.

3:56

Places over roam with pigeons because there was no one there

3:58

to hunt anymore. Right, same

4:01

thing with the forest. They think there was so much forest

4:03

cover that it was because the Native Americans

4:05

who had managed the forest four had all died

4:08

off, largely died off, and

4:10

then what we thought was just this crazy

4:13

stretch of forest that had always been there. It

4:15

was actually fairly new. But

4:18

it's probably not the case. Well at any

4:20

rate. Way back in the six Dreds,

4:22

about of land

4:25

north of Mexico was trees.

4:28

Yeah, not too bad. No, that's a

4:30

lot of trees. Uh. And trees are

4:32

great because they give us wood. I mean they led to uh,

4:36

you know, pre metal. It was all about

4:38

wood. Yeah, you know,

4:40

ships, buildings,

4:42

houses, wagons. William Harris, who wrote

4:44

this article, Yeah, it makes the very

4:47

smart point that we came

4:49

and cut down trees and basically

4:51

built a new nation, certainly

4:54

a new economy, settle new nations

4:56

out of what definitely for sure

4:58

like literally out of wood. If

5:00

you're talking the world and Planet Earth about

5:05

is forest land and Russia

5:07

and Brazil lead the way because they have huge

5:10

tracts of land. Yeah,

5:12

but as a continent,

5:15

actually Europe is the most. They have

5:17

the most forest of any the most dense. I

5:19

believe that they have one thousand and

5:21

one million, which is a little

5:23

over a billion hectares hectars

5:27

point four acres. Right, the

5:29

total number of acreage if

5:31

you're in the US of forest land throughout

5:34

the world one point five eight billion

5:36

acres of forests. Is

5:38

that the most broad definition

5:40

of the forest that includes everything,

5:43

And that's in the US. No, no, no,

5:45

that's the world one billions

5:47

in the world. Yeah, because in the US

5:50

there if you if you talk to

5:52

a forester, they will

5:54

say, everyone thinks that you see

5:56

a bunch of trees and that's a forest. But they

5:58

would narrow down that death finition to at

6:01

least one acre of

6:04

land which has at least ten percent

6:06

tree cover. That's a pretty that's a

6:08

good definition for a forest. I'm on board

6:10

with that. Well, if you're talking that definition,

6:12

then the US has about seven

6:14

hundred and fifty million acres

6:17

uh, seven sixty six in Canada. And

6:20

uh, that's that's forest, my

6:23

friend. Boom, we're done. Yeah,

6:25

it was a minefield, but we navigate it. But

6:27

this is about timber and that's different than for us.

6:29

It is different than for us. So a forest

6:31

is that definition that you just said. It's an acre

6:34

of land with ten percent tree cover. Right.

6:36

Timberland is a type of forest

6:39

land, but it has to have a certain

6:41

amount of usable

6:44

um trees on it or

6:46

timber to make it timberland.

6:48

Right. I grew up in a forest actually, now that I

6:50

think about it, Oh yeah, by that definition. Nice.

6:53

What was it called. It's called Chuck's House

6:56

Chuck's House forest? Yeah,

6:58

I mean it was. I think we had

7:00

We had like an acre and a half and most

7:03

of it was trees, so more than ten percent.

7:05

Oh yeah, easy. So you had a dense forest. It

7:07

was pretty dense. That's awesome. Did you learn

7:09

to climb trees out there? No? But

7:11

I used to get poked fun at because it didn't grow up

7:13

in a neighborhood like most

7:16

kids. It was just a street with like six houses

7:18

in the forests. Who would make fun of

7:20

you for that. What were they saying, Well, you

7:22

know, it's cool to grow up in a neighborhood when

7:24

in the eighties. Hey man, I grew up in a

7:26

neighborhood in the eighties. It wasn't that great.

7:29

I was jealous, man, because everyone else would

7:31

sneak out at night and then go to their friend's house.

7:33

And they were swimming pools and tennis

7:35

courts and communist centers and it

7:37

was just like me and my brother in woods. But

7:40

I guess I can. I got older and everyone was like, dude,

7:42

your house is awesome. You live out in the middle

7:44

of the woods. Yeah. Well, plus

7:47

you're lucky to have your brother to hang

7:49

out with. He's a great guy. True, yeah, good

7:51

point. So you

7:53

know I had a door that led out to

7:56

the back porch. Was

7:58

growing up. It's like, there's no sneaking out.

8:00

I just opened the door and went out from my room, just

8:03

like, go ahead, come

8:05

and go as you please. No, I

8:07

wasn't supposed to, but there wasn't a lot of

8:09

sneaking involved. It was opening the door

8:11

and quietly closing it. You didn't have to. I

8:13

always wanted to shimmy up a drain pipe

8:15

to my room. Have you shimmying up

8:18

or down? Down is a lot easier than not

8:20

that I could have shimmied when I was ten or twelve, though,

8:24

ain't no shimmy in anymore. We're

8:26

so people have sent in that guide

8:28

posts cover. Is that you know? It's

8:32

just some other playing

8:34

the trumpet? Yeah? I never played the trumpet.

8:38

It doesn't look like you, but I was like now,

8:40

and it may not have been a four piece

8:43

picture, but I think it was. Someone

8:45

will find it, I hope. So okay,

8:48

so let's get back to timberland. Timberland

8:50

is a forest that's capable of growing

8:52

something like twenty cubic feet of commercial

8:55

wood per acre per year.

8:57

That's right, that's it. Uh And

9:00

um, people estimate two thirds

9:02

of our nation is forest

9:04

land. Uh and five

9:06

hundred and two million acres of that is timberland.

9:09

Yeah, that's not bad, not bad at all. Now.

9:12

So the key here, though is, and this is

9:14

where the big debate comes up. We're not going to get

9:16

into it necessarily now, but the

9:18

key is that, yes,

9:20

you can have a forest that is capable of growing

9:23

twenty cubic feet of commercial grade

9:25

lumber timber a year. Um.

9:29

But you also wanted to be able to regrow

9:32

sustainable harvesting. Right, So what you're

9:34

after is what's called the net annual increase.

9:36

This article calls it an annual gain. That's

9:38

wrong. It's a net annual increase, which

9:40

means that the amount of

9:42

stuff you're growing in a given year

9:45

is more than what you're harvesting.

9:48

Difference between the gain and an increase, I'm

9:50

just saying the industry term. Yeah.

9:53

I looked up net industry gain or yeah,

9:55

net annual gain and they said you must

9:57

be city folk, right, it

10:00

increase. Uh, so

10:03

that you just basically it's pretty simple. You

10:05

just want to take less trees than you're growing

10:07

in a particular year, or that you have than

10:09

you have in reserve. And

10:12

um, actually, the United States

10:15

is has been in an annual

10:17

gain for for decades now. Like

10:20

it's a it's a real concern and to cause for

10:22

worry that we over over

10:24

harvest trees, well, we used to man

10:26

that we DeForest, but if

10:29

you look at the historical data, we are

10:31

growing more trees than we're taking, um

10:34

every year. Yeah, I think the

10:36

stat was since the nineteen Since nineteen

10:39

we haven't made anything worse,

10:41

right, And apparently, and since the fifties we've

10:44

gotten way better. I think those four times

10:46

the seventies were like kind of bad, but

10:48

I think that was like the the

10:50

transition decade. Yeah,

10:52

yeah, what this made me really appreciate

10:54

we're early conservationist. Yeah,

10:58

because postal of a war and during

11:00

prefous civil war even people

11:03

just sort of took what they wanted

11:06

and did what they wanted with the land. There

11:08

was a lot of foresight, and so early conservationists

11:10

were really fighting an uphill battle

11:12

back then. I think. So I just have a lot of respect for them

11:15

to say, you know what, I don't know if this is smart, what's

11:17

gonna happen in a hundred years. It's

11:20

like, I know, you need your log cabin, Jebediah.

11:22

What's mind boggling to me is that that debate

11:24

still goes on. Yeah, that's true, you

11:26

know, but even just with timber,

11:29

with like climate in general, climate change

11:31

things like that. Agreed. All

11:33

right, So if you're a scientist, you're gonna classify

11:35

forest usually by what kind

11:38

of trees are there. Um, for instance,

11:40

a tropical rainforest you're gonna have

11:42

broad leaf evergreens, a boreal forest you're

11:44

gonna have needle leaf evergreens.

11:46

Then there's a temperate forest, which is like what we

11:49

have here in the southeast. Yeah. And

11:51

and the US are five major

11:53

regions specific Coast, Rocky Mountain, North,

11:55

South, and I love it. Alaska

11:57

has its own region, yes, just because

11:59

it's it deserves it, and there's a

12:01

lot of trees up there. Yeah. And in fact,

12:04

there's been a little bit of a scandal recently

12:06

as far as Alaska and trees go. Are

12:09

you gonna is that a tease? It's a tease, Okay.

12:12

But we're gonna consider a couple of regions

12:15

here, and we're gonna mainly be talking about the United

12:17

States because that's where we live. Yeah,

12:20

but there are trees everywhere.

12:22

Yeah, and you can apply this to a lot of places.

12:24

But east of the Old Mississippi is

12:26

the hardwood region and west is

12:29

softwood. And if

12:31

you're talking hardwood, gums, maples,

12:33

oaks, walnut, very hardwood

12:36

walnut there.

12:40

Actually, now I think about I think mahogany is a

12:42

tropical rainforest tree,

12:45

is it? Yeah? I'm an idiot, all right, No,

12:47

you know that's what I get for coming

12:49

up with something on my own. Uh,

12:52

soft woods you're talking pine, um,

12:55

spruce, hemlock, douglas for redwoods.

12:58

Those are soft woods. And

13:01

we're just getting started. There's a lot of information

13:03

coming your way. Should we take a break

13:05

here? Should be? I don't know. It

13:07

sounded like you were working out towards that. That was a

13:09

break he set up, wouldn't it? All right, let's take

13:11

a break. We'll come back and we'll talk about why

13:13

wood is good? All

13:32

right? What is good? Because you can use it for lots

13:34

of stuff, which we'll talk about. And I didn't

13:36

realize this that we've been using it for a

13:38

very long time, one at least one

13:41

and a half million years, right, starting

13:43

with fire and like clubs, and yeah,

13:46

did you realize that we'd harnessed fire that

13:48

many years ago? I

13:50

don't know if I ever really thought about it.

13:53

It has a long time for people to be building

13:56

fires a million and a half years ago. That

13:58

that completely reche It's my ideas of

14:00

hominids from one point five million years ago.

14:03

What do you think about them before? Not that they

14:05

could create fire. They're a bunch of cold dopes

14:08

a little bit so maybe that they

14:10

just kind of may do with what came their way rather

14:12

than actually making fire. You know. Yeah,

14:15

we should do a podcast on the origins

14:17

of fire. We did, you went

14:19

on fire? Yeah, but I don't think we covered like

14:23

the first fires, did we? Or did we? Probably

14:26

not? Yeah, I think I've since seen

14:28

Quest for Fire, which we've talked about. Yeah,

14:30

good movie. I

14:33

kind of want to talk about my favorite part, but this is

14:35

a family podcast, so I won't. Yeah. There's

14:37

it's pretty brutal in a lot of ways,

14:39

isn't it? All right? So why is wood

14:41

good? Um? Like I said, you can make stuff

14:43

out of it. Another big thing is carbon

14:46

sequestration, which is why you

14:48

hear a lot of people battling clear cutting for us

14:51

because carbon sequestration

14:53

is great. It traps carbon, so the build

14:55

up of CEO two is reduced.

14:58

As a matter of fact, trees count for

15:00

se of the organic carbon

15:02

locked in the earth.

15:05

Yeah, that's why that canopy is is important,

15:07

right. Uh. They also provide

15:10

habitats for all our animals and birds

15:13

and insects and all the plants

15:15

and good things that we love. And

15:19

uh the hydrologic cycle,

15:22

souh. A forest will help soak up rainfall

15:24

and filter the water as it becomes

15:27

groundwater. All very important stuff. Yeah,

15:29

if you like drinking water, you can thank

15:31

trees for helping keep

15:33

the soil in tip top shape to

15:36

uh filter out all that nasty stuff.

15:39

So, yes, forests are extraordinarily

15:42

important, right, what is good? But you

15:44

also can make pretty good use of

15:46

it too, Like if you're a clever

15:48

primate like we humans are, who

15:50

you cannot only use it for fire, which

15:53

a lot of people still do around the world. Fire

15:55

wood is still of um huge um

15:58

use of wood of timber

16:01

around the world. Nothing beats a

16:03

natural wood fire in a fireplace in your home.

16:05

No, it's true, you know, but um do

16:08

you remember when we were when

16:10

we shot those Toyota,

16:12

those Toyota videos that Carnegie

16:15

melon, And one of the innovation

16:17

things was like a filter, like an easy,

16:19

cheap portable filter for cooking fires,

16:22

indoor cooking fires, remember that, because that was a big

16:24

problem people were like making using

16:26

wood fires to cook with, but they were doing it indoors

16:29

and like suffering all sorts of lung

16:31

problems. And that still happens in uh,

16:34

you know, non industrialized nations.

16:36

Yes, is that what we call things? It's the it says,

16:38

it's the prime, it's the primary fuel

16:41

for cooking and heating and developing countries non

16:44

industrialized, I think that's even better. All right.

16:46

So, uh here in the U. S. O. And

16:49

and a lot of countries these

16:51

days, only seven percent of timber

16:54

is used for um,

16:56

I guess heating and cooking.

16:59

Yeah, there's a big push against even that seven

17:01

percent to Really it's just such a

17:04

I agree with you that firefires,

17:06

but it's wasteful. Yes, okay, Well

17:09

I don't have a working fireplace, so I

17:11

just like them, you just like the idea of it. Well,

17:13

I want one, but I have one of those old, you

17:15

know houses from the nineteen thirties that it's

17:19

expensive to get it retrofitted. Have you ever gotten

17:21

an estimate on it? Yeah, I need chimney

17:23

work. I need a bigger firebox. They said

17:25

something like eight or ten grand. The guy like

17:28

tried to talk me out of it. The

17:31

dude, I was like, you don't want to make money like

17:33

I want to fire And you're like, I don't know, it's pretty expensive.

17:36

I wouldn't. All right, it's wasteful.

17:39

Uh So seven percent goes

17:41

toward that lumber, which we'll get to

17:44

in a minute, is about fifty

17:46

three in the u S. September. Yeah,

17:48

and most of that goes to new house

17:50

construction. It turns out that

17:53

makes sense pulp and paper or

17:56

and then uh, composites like ap

17:58

plywooden veneer the other seven. Right,

18:00

Although I think we're missing one percentage point, aren't

18:02

we? Or are we? Yeah?

18:07

I wonder what that is. It's

18:09

the mystery percent, the mystery percent. God

18:12

knows what they're doing to that one percent of wood.

18:15

All right? So I said the word lumber, and

18:18

lumber isn't just cut

18:21

wood. No, just like timberland isn't

18:23

just forest. Forest

18:26

isn't just timberland. Right, Lumber

18:29

is actually a specific thing.

18:31

It is wood that is squared

18:34

or rectangular. So when

18:36

you go to the hardware store and

18:38

you see all the two by fours and two by sixes

18:41

and all that stuff, that is lumber. Because

18:43

it's sure if you point to a post

18:45

around post and go give me

18:48

three of the lumbers, we'll

18:51

say, boy, where did you come from?

18:53

Yeah, you're wrong on a couple of points here.

18:55

So that's called roundwood. Actually, yeah, that

18:58

doesn't mean that that's not included in lumber.

19:00

That's at nitpicky if you're outside the industry.

19:02

I think say, I agree with you wholeheartedly,

19:05

but if someone points that out, then I

19:07

don't know, punch him in the face with the two by four. That's

19:09

not that's not lumber, that's round with

19:12

Remember hack saw Jim Duggan, didn't

19:14

he attack people with the two by four and the w

19:17

WF I didn't

19:19

want a ton of wrestling. I'm pretty sure he had

19:21

like a two by four. That makes

19:23

sense. It's violent. Uh,

19:26

construction, it's about a fifty fifty split

19:28

with lumber. Um in the US, about

19:30

half goes to construction and about

19:33

half goes to palettes,

19:35

crates and furniture. Yeah,

19:37

you know what. I didn't know it would be that high. I read an

19:40

extraordinarily interesting article on

19:42

the pallette trade. I'm sure it's

19:45

there's like a whole cartel controlling palelettes

19:47

that people rebel against and um

19:50

there's like palette thieves and counterfeitters

19:53

and its like just it's a

19:55

really interesting art. I'll see if I can find it. I'll post

19:57

it in the podcast page for this. Well,

19:59

pallettes, you and um, you can

20:01

make a lot of cool things out of pallets, and a lot

20:03

of people are finding other uses. So they think you can

20:05

just go behind the grocery store and take

20:07

them. So now a lot of

20:09

places have big signs that are like, do not take

20:12

these pallets. No, especially if they're

20:14

blue, Like, that's stealing. If they're blue

20:16

paletts, you

20:18

you can get the place where you stole them from sued.

20:21

Yeah, that's the saying. If the palette

20:23

is blue, it's not for you because

20:25

you'll get sued. Uh.

20:29

Furniture. If you make furniture,

20:31

you're gonna like hardwood like

20:33

oak and maple, because it's durable

20:36

and it has that lovely grain that

20:38

we all love so much. The

20:41

softwood is no slouch either. No, but

20:43

palletts are used in hardwood too because it's sturdy,

20:46

right, But yeah, softwood is a different deal. Now. They

20:48

usually use softwood for construction lumber

20:50

to because it contains

20:53

fewer knots and things like that.

20:55

And actually softwood is used chuck

20:58

more form construction lumber

21:00

because you can make it long and straight,

21:04

which is that's how you want your construction lumber,

21:06

long and straight. Nobody wants like kind of a topsy

21:08

turvy house. It could be a crazy

21:11

person, but most people don't. They want

21:13

straight, plumb houses. Yeah, although

21:15

it's tough. If you've ever done a home reno

21:17

project to find straight lumber

21:19

these days, is that right? Yeah? You go in

21:21

there and they're they all seem like they're warped

21:24

and bent. And if you're yeah, and if

21:26

you're a amateur like me,

21:29

it doesn't help you out any if your lumber is not

21:31

straight. Now you want straight? M Like, I don't know how to

21:33

make up for that. Like my buddy Isaac

21:36

in Kansas help me do my house. He

21:38

would go pick out stuff and I would say, this is curved. He'd

21:40

be like, I can account for that, huh, But

21:43

I can't. He's got like a special

21:46

organ in his brain. Yeah, it's

21:48

called smarts, construction

21:51

carpentery smarts. Okay, so that's lumber,

21:53

right, Yeah. Um. You can

21:55

also make paper out of wood. This

21:58

might be the fact of the podcast. If you're ready for this,

22:01

paper is made out of wood. I

22:04

thought you had something else you got

22:06

me. Have we done one on paper before? Because

22:09

this seems awfully familiar. No, but I

22:11

will say this touched off like

22:13

five different topics that we should cover, paper

22:16

being one of them all the origin

22:18

ifier paper? What

22:20

else? Um? Deforestation

22:23

in earnest we're gonna touch on it.

22:25

But and then there was a couple of more I think pornography

22:31

just kidding. Um,

22:33

So let's talk about the uh

22:36

cellular structure of wood because

22:38

it's very important. Well, especially

22:41

when you're talking about paper like that

22:43

was not just a non sequitor, it actually makes sense

22:45

exactly. So trees like

22:48

everything else, are made of cells, correct, And

22:50

when you take enough of these cells and stack them

22:53

together, you can create something

22:55

as strong and tall and rigid as

22:57

a tree. But it takes a certain

22:59

kind cell to make a tree. Uh

23:01

yeah, the cells. If you think of the walls

23:03

of the cells, they make the tree strong.

23:06

And there are a couple of chemicals that

23:08

make up these walls, cellulose

23:10

and lignant. And cellulose

23:13

is flexible and bindy, and

23:15

lignan says no, no, I'm your glue.

23:18

Cellulos I'm gonna keep you, um

23:20

more rigid because I don't want you to bend. So

23:23

they work together to make

23:25

whether cellulus likes it or not. Yeah,

23:27

I always wondered about that. It

23:29

has to go along with it. It's like I wanted to bend.

23:31

Lignan get out of my face, right, is

23:33

like no, no coloring outside

23:36

the lines. Uh. So if

23:38

you separate those things, which we've been doing

23:40

for a long time now, you can get those cellulose

23:42

fibers and actually make something

23:45

called pulp which will eventually make paper,

23:47

right, and you can form it into a mate press

23:49

and dry it and bleach it and turn

23:52

it into paper. Like you said, you can also make

23:54

other stuff too, um, technically

23:56

fiber board, you know, the stuff that they

23:58

used to put on the back of dressers and

24:01

things these days. Uh crude.

24:03

Yeah, that's actually made from paper

24:05

pulp. Um.

24:08

If you're if you're at another hardware store and

24:12

some guy that works there, lady says, what

24:14

you want to use as m DF medium

24:17

density fiber board, and that

24:20

way they won't think your city folk. You

24:22

can say yeah, MDF, sure totally,

24:26

and then they'll know your city folk, like, give me

24:28

three of those mds. Uh.

24:31

And then you have hard board. And that's even

24:33

stronger than fiber board. Uh.

24:35

And it's just I think it's harder because

24:37

it's pressed together with so much

24:40

pressure. It's more dense. Yeah.

24:42

Fiber board is pulp and glue

24:45

press the press together. Hard

24:48

board is the same thing, but pressed together, like

24:50

you said, under pressure and then completely

24:53

different. Actually, although it does seem like it would

24:55

bear a pretty striking resemblance. Is

24:57

um particle board, right, Yes,

25:00

these are composites. Plywood and particle

25:02

boarder both composites, but

25:05

they are different. The

25:07

difference between MDF and particle board is MDF

25:10

is. Uh. Well, particle

25:12

board is cheaper and it's made out of sawdust,

25:16

whereas the MDF is

25:18

is made of actual fiber right out

25:20

of pulp. Yeah, does that make sense?

25:23

Yeah, Like Chuck, you realize

25:25

that stuff you should know has hit such

25:27

a stride, but we're talking about

25:29

particle board. It

25:32

just hit me. Plywood is

25:34

when you take If you look at plywood and

25:37

on the side of it, you'll see that it's

25:39

a lot of little veneers pressed together. They're

25:41

called veneers veneers. Plywood

25:44

is great, but if you really want something

25:46

that's just as tough, just

25:49

as durable, but cheaper, you're

25:51

gonna go for the oriented strand

25:54

board OSB baby, which

25:56

is basically like plywood made out of particle

25:58

board. Yeah, and it's it's all

26:00

but replaced plywood in construction

26:02

these days, home construction because it's cheaper,

26:06

Uh, it is stronger and more durable,

26:08

and I was wondering why it

26:10

was stronger, and it's because

26:13

it comes from It's right there in the name. It's oriented.

26:16

The specific orientation of

26:18

the wood strands makes makes

26:21

it stronger. So it's

26:23

not just haphazardly

26:25

tossed together. Impressed, I guess by God,

26:28

specifically oriented invented

26:30

nine. Uh

26:32

yeah in California, I think. Actually, so

26:36

your OSB, if you go into your hardware store

26:38

and they'll say you either want M D F or

26:40

os B, say,

26:43

I know what I'm talking about, So don't

26:45

try and don't try and trick me. Right, I didn't

26:48

just fall off of the turn of the lumber

26:50

truck. All

26:52

right, where are we now? Are we harvesting it? Yeah?

26:55

So to get to this point, to get to all

26:57

this wonderful products of

27:00

umber, timber. Sorry, man, I have a

27:02

lot of trouble not confusing lumber

27:04

with timber. The lumber

27:06

is timber. Timber is not necessarily lumber.

27:09

That's what I was taught as a young boy. So

27:12

when you harvest timber, there's a couple of approaches,

27:14

right and um, well,

27:16

there's several approaches, but they really fall under two

27:18

umbrellas. One is that take everything

27:21

to hell with ecology approach

27:23

called clear cutting. That is,

27:26

all these trees can make some money.

27:29

Ergo, I'm going to cut down all these trees.

27:32

Yeah, Typically over five acres is a

27:34

clear cut. Yes, anything under that it's called

27:36

a patch cut, although people disagree

27:38

on that definition too. But the suggestion

27:41

is that under

27:43

five acres an area that small

27:45

could recover. Being effectively

27:48

clear cut. I'm not sure has to do with recovery.

27:51

Oh, it has to do with the amount of money made.

27:54

I don't know. I'm not sure, all right. But with

27:56

clear cutting, you just go in and you cut

27:58

down everything. It's um it's pretty

28:00

straightforward. Really, Uh, it takes

28:02

slightly more thought to come

28:04

up with a good what's called the silver

28:07

culture approach. Silver

28:09

culture takes into account the idea

28:11

that you want that area that

28:13

you cut down to grow back to renew

28:16

so that again you hit that um

28:19

net annual increase rather than

28:21

decrease, to where the amount of

28:23

trees you have in stock or growing in a

28:25

particular year is actually more

28:27

than the amount of trees you harvest that

28:30

same year. To do that, you

28:32

have to be selective. You have to be smart

28:34

in the number, amount and

28:36

type of trees you cut down during

28:38

any given uh tree cut.

28:41

Yeah, with clear cutting. When

28:44

you hear that, you would just think like why

28:46

would anyone argue

28:48

that that's a good idea? But

28:50

people do. It's very controversial. Um,

28:52

if you're in the timber timber

28:55

industry, yeah, forestry industrystry

28:57

industry, you can say,

29:00

um, you will think in good confidence

29:03

that you can say that clear

29:05

cutting is fine if you do it the right way.

29:08

I don't get that. Yeah, they

29:10

said that there are seven conditions that

29:12

if you meet them then it's actually

29:14

better. That

29:16

sounds like, do you want me to

29:18

read the seven When

29:21

regenerating tree species that need full

29:23

sunlight to stimulate seeds sprouting and seedling growth.

29:26

When dealing with spars, or expose shallow rooted

29:28

trees that are in danger being damaged by

29:30

wind. When trying to produce an even

29:32

age stand and a stand I

29:34

found as a group of trees that are

29:37

the same species, age, and condition

29:39

that you can manage as a unit. That's

29:41

a stand of trees. When

29:44

regenerating stands of tree species that are dependent

29:47

on wind blown seed root

29:49

suckers or cones that need fire

29:51

to drop seed. When face with salvaging

29:54

over mature stands or stands killed

29:56

by insects, disease, or fire when

29:58

converting to another tree, speed seeds by planning or

30:00

seating, and finally to provide habitat

30:02

for wildlfe species that require edge,

30:05

new ground and high density

30:07

even age stands. I couldn't make

30:09

sense out of anything. Well, one of it really stuck

30:11

out to me, and it was that for

30:14

when you're cutting down an entire area that's

30:16

been hit by pests

30:18

or disease, that one makes sense

30:20

to me, especially if you're trying to contain

30:22

an epidemic. Yeah, sure, clear

30:25

cut, that makes sense. Everything else, I

30:27

mean, there were some there's

30:30

some logic to it. At least it's not just total

30:32

madness. Yeah. Opponents to clear

30:34

cutting will say it increases

30:36

soil erosion, water degradation, increases

30:39

silt in streams and rivers. Aesthetics

30:42

is the main reason that most people are opposed

30:44

to it, or that many people are

30:46

is that it just looks like a waste land. Right.

30:49

Well, the problem is also with clear cutting,

30:51

um it sets the

30:53

stage for invasive

30:56

species of say like fast growing weeds,

30:59

to overcome seedlings, and

31:02

it keeps the forest from regenerating.

31:04

So therefore clear cutting. Most

31:07

people, I guess, except for the people who came up with those

31:09

seven conditions, tend to believe

31:11

that is it's an unsustainable

31:13

method of harvesting timber, right.

31:17

A more sustainable method is

31:19

shelter wood cutting. That's the type of silver

31:21

culture. Yeah, and that's when they use partial

31:23

cuttings over time. We're talking over ten

31:25

or twenty years, only two to four

31:27

harvests where things

31:30

can naturally regenerate during that time

31:32

frame. That sounds like a

31:34

good idea. It is. Um. There's also seed

31:36

tree cut seed tree harvesting,

31:38

and then selection harvesting, which

31:40

is where you basically go in and say

31:43

this tree, that tree,

31:45

that tree. Yeah, for that are more marketable.

31:48

But opponents are proponents of clear cutting

31:50

say that's worse. I don't know why,

31:52

though I can see

31:55

I can see what they're saying. I mean, like, think about it, like you're artificially

31:59

yeah, and you're you're

32:01

disrupting the balance or the ecology

32:04

of the forest by saying, just these

32:06

great oaks leave all these other crumby

32:09

elms. But the thing is is you're

32:11

also affecting the ecology by cutting

32:13

down everything the ecosystem.

32:15

I would like to hear from someone that

32:18

really knows their stuff that is a proponent of

32:20

clear cutting to explain it better

32:22

to me, yeah than the internet, did please

32:25

do? All right? Um? So

32:27

when you do what when you do use any kind

32:29

of silver cultural technique and

32:31

you're not just clear cutting, you have to go through

32:33

the the forest and figure out

32:35

what trees you're gonna take a lot of times, and

32:38

even with clear cutting, they will leave

32:40

um trees that are say six

32:43

inches in diameter or less

32:45

in size they're too young. It's

32:47

like how you um leave uh

32:51

fawns when you're deer hunting, the

32:54

exact same thing. I

32:57

love the name of that process when determining

32:59

um and surveying the land to work it

33:01

all out, It's called cruising. I'm

33:04

gonna crow cruise the forest, right. Everybody

33:06

you know drives around the forest

33:08

with the pack of cigarettes rolled up

33:10

in their shirt sleeves. Um.

33:12

Next comes felling, and

33:15

I got confused with tree felling on the

33:17

correct way. So I put a little post

33:19

on Facebook, and I had a guy

33:21

named Gabriel Fribley who worked as

33:24

a forest service fire and fuel

33:26

management dude, and he said, I've

33:28

cut hundreds, if not thousands, of trees.

33:31

So you want to hear what he says, because we would

33:34

screw it up. I guarantee it. Are

33:36

you about to say that you know better than this guy. I don't

33:38

know better than this guy, but this this article

33:41

was definitely wrong from everything I found. Yeah,

33:43

that's exactly why I asked. Uh, he

33:45

said. Terminology changes depending on where you

33:47

are and who you're talking to. There are a number

33:49

of different ways to do so, but the safest,

33:51

the most common is to cut a wedge out of a

33:53

tree. Measure about a third of the diameter

33:56

of the measuring about a third of the diameter of

33:58

the tree in the direction you want tree

34:00

to fall. Then you that's

34:02

where I would just stop. Yeah, my

34:04

brains are shut down. Yeah uh then

34:07

you uh. Cutting this wedge will require

34:09

two cuts, a flat cut and then a sloping cut

34:11

that meets the flat cut and freeze the wedge.

34:14

The combination of these two cuts is commonly called

34:16

the face cut. Okay, So then the

34:19

that is on the side of the tree

34:22

in the direction it's gonna fall, correct, and

34:24

it's like a triangle, yes,

34:26

with one one. The bottom cut

34:29

is ninety degrees, the top

34:31

cut is forty five degrees. I think,

34:33

so, okay, the the wedge

34:35

acts as a hinge, so the tree falls in

34:37

a safe, controlled manner. Then there's the

34:39

third cut, most commonly called the back cut,

34:42

which is a straight cut in the opposite

34:44

side of the tree, about halfway

34:46

through the diameter of the tree, maybe

34:48

a little more. And that's about two

34:50

inches above the bottom cut on

34:52

the other side from what I saw.

34:55

And he said, ideally you want to leave the

34:58

diameter of the tree intact between the back

35:00

cutting the wedge, and that's called holding wood.

35:03

And I think he said holding what is just what it sounds

35:05

like. It holds a tree together to make like

35:07

it's not coming down on your head. Basically, it

35:10

holds it together until you're ready. And he said, if

35:12

you've done these two correctly, three

35:14

actually you should be able to simply push

35:16

the tree over with your hands or

35:19

drive a wedge into the back to bring the tree down.

35:22

Well that that's pretty awesome to push

35:24

a huge tree down with your hands and Yale

35:26

timber, So thank you to Gabriel

35:29

Gabriel Fribley, Thanks Gabriel.

35:31

And for firefighting forest fires,

35:33

yeah, that's pretty neat. Or starting them,

35:36

oh, come on, no, the forestry service does

35:38

controlled burns. Oh yeah, I thought you meant like, because

35:41

there have been cases where they've found

35:44

arson and it was actually a fireman

35:47

or is mother firefighter? Do you remember that

35:50

there was a dude who was a

35:52

wildfire firefighter who was

35:55

not getting enough work. I think

35:57

that's what I was thinking. Was it the mom? The mom

35:59

went and a fire

36:01

so that her son could make some money.

36:05

Not really, but you know the mom that just wants

36:08

to like take care of business. First one

36:10

that's so chuck. Um. You've

36:12

gone through, you've cut a bunch of trees. The

36:15

first thing the loggers do is

36:17

they hop all over the trees and go hp pep, pep

36:19

pep, and they cut all the limbs

36:22

off, right. It's called bucking,

36:24

yep. And then once you've got the tree bucked, you

36:26

cut it into huge logs from

36:28

top to bottom. And then you

36:30

tie the logs up or you chain them

36:32

to a tractor, and you skid

36:35

them along a skidding trail to

36:37

um what's called the landing

36:40

area, all right, and they pre

36:42

plan these skidding trails. Yeah, this

36:44

is very important, not just willy nilly,

36:47

because they are trying to protect the forest at the

36:49

same time. Yeah, because if you have a bunch

36:51

of tractors driving out with lots

36:53

and lots of heavy logs, heavy

36:56

heavy logs attached to them,

36:58

you're going to compact the soil like this

37:00

was a tree ten minutes ago. Now

37:02

it's a log. Yes, huge logs,

37:05

and so um, if you're gonna compact

37:07

some areas soil, you might as well just compact the

37:09

same area so rather than a bunch of areas

37:11

of soil, so that the rest of

37:13

the forts can stay healthy. And when you get to

37:15

the landing area, these logs are gonna

37:17

be basically graded and sordid,

37:20

and some of them are either going to be sent

37:22

straight to the pulp mills to

37:24

be created into paper right

37:28

or fiber board or something like that, and

37:31

then um, others may

37:33

be sent in the higher grade stuff will probably

37:35

be sent to um sawmills

37:38

or concentration yards, which are

37:40

basically the second stage

37:43

of these landing areas, where um,

37:45

these people say we're gonna put all these specific

37:48

species of trees over here because

37:50

this one sawmill likes only oaks, so we're

37:52

gonna send them their oaks. So either

37:55

the landing area goes directly a sawmill,

37:57

or there's that extra step of the concentration

37:59

yard in there. Yeah. And if this sounds dangerous,

38:02

um it is. And

38:04

depending on what year you're looking at, logging

38:07

is either the

38:09

one or two aside

38:12

from commercial fishing, most dangerous job

38:14

in the United States at least. Either way,

38:17

you can find documentary television

38:19

shows about these professions on

38:21

Discovery Channel. That's right, check

38:23

your local list and other channels. M this

38:26

past year, I think it was commercial fishing. Airline

38:29

pilot was number three.

38:32

I find that very unnerving. Yeah, right,

38:34

what I thought. It's like, I thought planes didn't crash

38:36

much. What's up with that? I don't know, well,

38:39

and my fear of flying just came back. Farmers

38:42

and ranchers or four in case you're wondering,

38:44

mining machine operator, then roofers,

38:47

sanitation collectors, which I thought was interesting.

38:50

Are you sure it's that like military jet pilot

38:52

dude, soldier wasn't even listed in the top ten

38:55

an airline pilot, But like I said, I think

38:58

they go by deaths in that previous year.

39:01

I don't care. It probably depends on if we're at war

39:04

or you know. Okay, but airline

39:06

pilot was still in there. It was uh,

39:09

And then truckers and industrial

39:12

machinists, especially ice robe

39:14

truckers. Probably

39:16

yeah, for real, I'm sure among truckers

39:18

that they probably have the higher mortality

39:20

rate. Well, you were shilling for Discovery. I think

39:23

that was on History. Okay, you're

39:25

shilling more for Discovery now than when they

39:27

owned it, which is weird. Weird.

39:30

What do you think podcaster? Is? Podcaster?

39:33

Pretty unless apparently

39:35

you're on a commercial airline, like a one in ten million

39:38

chance of death. Yes, if you're a podcaster

39:42

death, you know, we can figure that out if we

39:44

knew what math was. I

39:47

don't. I'm trying to think if, like how

39:50

we would die from doing this, flying

39:53

somewhere to do a live podcast. Probably right,

39:55

I would say if somebody locked

39:58

the door and Jerry started to fire

40:00

in here, right, then we could probably

40:02

die from part Actually, in our case, it would be if Jerry

40:04

finally snaps and just murders us both. I

40:06

don't know. I think we could defend Jerry all so

40:09

chuck um. Once the stuff hits

40:11

the sawmill, we'll go there. We already kind

40:13

of hit the pulp mill, which stink.

40:16

By the way, one of the foul

40:18

smells on Earth are those like

40:20

the can I just say egg fart?

40:23

No way. You worse than that? Oh I thought it was

40:25

like that real sulfury smell. Now that's well

40:27

water down in Florida. Okay,

40:30

this is like it's its own smell. Alright,

40:32

you've surely smelled it before. You ever been to a chicken

40:34

farm? That's okay, you're right that

40:37

that might be the worst smell of all. Didn't you use to

40:39

work on chicken farms doing software or something

40:42

not on farms? Okay,

40:44

but but other people in our company

40:47

would go to the farms and like teach

40:49

them how to use the software. It smells so bad,

40:51

which is imagined that job going teaching

40:53

these people that have been like literally

40:56

counting chicken heads for their entire life,

40:58

teach them how to use the computer to do it. They

41:01

were not receptive many times. Talk about

41:03

hunting and pecking. Yeah, there's a lot of hunting and

41:05

pecking. So um at

41:07

the at the sawmill,

41:10

right when you're cutting

41:12

up, well, when you're when

41:14

you get a bunch of logs, you're like,

41:16

these are some good logs, but I can't

41:18

do much with this bark. It can use

41:21

mulch that kind of thing, and

41:23

actually bark. I didn't realize this bark represents

41:25

basically one of two organs

41:29

of the tree. There's actually three. Should

41:31

we talk about the inside of a tree a little bit? Yeah, I thought this

41:33

was interesting. So the bark

41:36

is the fol um, it's the sugar conducting

41:38

cells flow the flow them

41:41

and and basically it just provides

41:43

energy. It transfers energy throughout

41:45

the tree. It's like the internal piping.

41:48

Part of it is the flow them. Yeah. And there's

41:50

that one bugs Bunny song. It

41:53

makes like you know that Bugs Bunny

41:55

assembly line song, remember

41:57

the

41:57

power something.

42:01

So that's the sound that that makes if you listen

42:03

very carefully in the forest. True.

42:07

Uh. There's another set of internal

42:09

piping uh, the tissue called

42:11

the xyleum uh. And they

42:13

carry the xylum carries the water up

42:17

and down the tree, right, And they are well

42:19

suited to do so because they are like

42:21

pipes. They are shaped like piping. Right.

42:23

So the Fulham

42:26

flow that's bark, the

42:28

xyleum that's the wood inside.

42:31

And in between the two you have a thin layer

42:33

that's basically stem cells. It's called the cambium,

42:36

and the cambium produces flow um

42:38

and um xyleum cells and

42:40

it produces a xylem cells inward. Right,

42:43

So the stuff, the part of the tree that's closest

42:46

to the bark is also the youngest heartwood.

42:49

That's deep Yeah,

42:51

that's the sap wood. Further

42:53

inside, deeper into the tree, that's

42:55

the older xyleum, and that's

42:57

the heartwood. It's just the oldest part of

42:59

the tree. Yes, and you

43:02

when the log gets to the sawmill,

43:04

they're going to basically separate those two things

43:07

because there's different uses for sap wood

43:09

and for heartwood. But the first thing they're gonna

43:11

do is get rid of the bark. Yeah. They put

43:13

it, uh in a debarking drum

43:15

and it's it's kind of like a nightclub. It just kind of

43:18

everything rubs together. Yeah, they put several

43:20

different logs in and let the logs rub their own

43:22

bark off of one another. They put on a little music.

43:25

It's pretty horrific. Foam machine. You're

43:27

a tree and uh, all of a sudden

43:29

you have a naked tree, right,

43:32

you know, strip the skin right off of

43:34

it, and that bark can become a mulch and

43:37

uh what else? Fuel

43:39

fuel pretty much? Ye, okay, decorative

43:42

mulchen fuel. But the

43:44

Once you've got that naked log, you're

43:46

all set. So you want to cut the the

43:49

sapwood from the heartwood because

43:51

the heartwood extraordinarily

43:53

strong and you use it for posts

43:56

and timbers and beams and things like

43:58

that that you really are going to put a lot of weight

44:00

on sometimes, right sometimes.

44:03

And actually there's another article I read once

44:05

about this um like, uh, this

44:07

commercial diving company down

44:10

in like central Florida, that

44:12

their whole job was they would go down

44:15

in the swamp and um

44:17

like raise old cypress logs

44:20

from the nineteenth century that have just been

44:22

down there since then. And um

44:25

they sell them as like reclaimed original

44:28

like heart of cypress for flooring

44:30

people pay mind boggling amounts

44:32

for because this this log was

44:35

felled, you know, a hundreds something years ago and

44:37

it just sank. It happened to be one of the ones that

44:40

sank, and they couldn't do anything with it. Back

44:42

then, there were so many cypress trees that

44:44

they just didn't even bother with those. So now

44:46

these guys go down and dive and identify them

44:48

and raise them up and then sell them. That

44:51

is heavy. Yeah, uh,

44:53

And actually that perfect time to mention

44:55

my buddy Jason from Damn castor

44:58

Guitars. He built

45:00

me a customed telecaster replica

45:03

and they use uh

45:06

old wood from a damn in Georgia

45:08

that had been underwater for like a hundred years.

45:11

And this thing is it's the heaviest guitar. It's

45:14

beautiful, but it's tough on my back?

45:16

Is it? Is it worth it? Though? Yeah? Man,

45:18

it's I mean it's gorgeous. And the wood they get is really

45:20

just heavy and dense and gorgeous wood. And

45:23

they got this big load of it from a dam that they

45:25

tore down and think Columbus, Georgia. And

45:28

so they've got all this wood now that they're making these sweet

45:30

guitars out of. Would you name your guitar? I

45:33

haven't named it. I don't really name my

45:35

guitars, although he wanted me to. Yeah, you

45:37

gotta name your guitar. I got four guitars

45:39

there, one through four. You

45:42

should name one Joni and one Chocci at

45:45

least alright, and one always keep them

45:47

right next to each other, and one Fonzie

45:49

and one Ralph Mouth. Now

45:51

who was Fonzie's uh leather leather

45:53

tuscad arrow pink.

45:56

Well, they're sisters so was Pinky

45:58

the younger sister. I think Leather was the one that looked

46:00

like Joan Jett and Pinky is the one that looked

46:03

like a bombshell model, like

46:05

had the you know, the pink sweaters

46:07

and the big poofy hair. So he which

46:10

one did he date? I think he

46:12

dated Pinky Leather.

46:15

She she didn't need guys she was.

46:18

I think I remember who you're talking about. I

46:20

don't remember Pinky Tuskedero. I definitely remember

46:22

Leather Tuscadero. Man whoever wrote

46:24

that show was a genius. Right, Well,

46:27

what they're doing is they're satisfying everyone. They're like, you

46:30

like the ladies rough and tumble, or you like them dressed

46:32

up in pink with like poofy

46:34

hair. Right? Do you like him with an Italian name?

46:37

Right? Uh?

46:40

Where are we have we debarked or

46:42

in like Milwaukee?

46:44

Right? Yes, we have deepark to answer your

46:46

question. Okay, so we debarked. You got a naked log.

46:49

If it's gonna be paper, it's gonna go to a chipper,

46:52

which cuts the log into little

46:54

little squares about two inches

46:56

by a quarter of an inch thick,

47:00

and they're gonna mix those chips up with chemicals

47:02

and stuff. They're going to uh

47:05

put it in a digester. It's a big pressure

47:07

cooker and that is what separates

47:09

that cellulose from the lignant that we

47:11

talked about earlier. To get your pulp. Yeah,

47:14

I just want to get that lignant out of there.

47:16

Yeah. And it's wet, it's fibrous. They

47:18

bleach it to the proper shade,

47:21

mix it with water again, form

47:24

it into big mats, and then press them under

47:26

these incredible rollers to press out all

47:28

that water. And then

47:30

there you go. You've got what will be

47:32

paper. Right. And if you're making lumber, you

47:35

send your um, your

47:38

log to the

47:40

scooby doo head rig

47:42

is what it's called. Yeah. Man, those things are awesome.

47:45

The thing that people are always tied on going

47:47

toward and just cuts

47:50

the log in half, or it cuts the edges

47:52

off, and maybe like just cuts out the heart.

47:55

It just sort of roughs it out right, and then you have

47:57

um a couple of other types of sauce.

47:59

There's a trimmer that squares the

48:01

ends. Before that, you have an edger which

48:04

creates the um, well the

48:06

edges for your lumber. And

48:08

then of course there's a whole other process

48:10

involved in making roundwood a k A

48:13

posts which are not lumber.

48:16

Evidently, Uh, your heartwood is

48:18

gonna be um older obviously,

48:20

because you know how you can tell a tree by the rings,

48:23

those inner rings that we talked about the

48:25

xyleum, right, and it's the cambium is creating

48:28

more xylem cells. They're going

48:30

on the outside of the heartwood. Tree

48:32

is growing outward and they're there's just gonna be more knots

48:35

in that heartwood too, which

48:37

is it branches past it's sturdier.

48:40

But a lot of people would also be like, I don't want

48:42

to see knots, so they're not going

48:44

to use it. For I do want to see knots,

48:47

depend on what you're doing, like a

48:49

good knot in the right place. For

48:51

instance, my guitar has a beautiful not in

48:53

the center of the back that's just gorgeous.

48:57

Now that I would call

49:00

this one pinky tuscadero, I think, okay,

49:02

so that's pinkcaera maybe

49:04

leather to but

49:07

I actually looked up not so I was like, wait, what is

49:09

it not, not even thinking well, of course

49:11

it's just a former branch. Oh.

49:14

I didn't think about that either. Yeah, it's either a branch

49:16

base or a branch bud

49:19

that never happened. Huh. Do you know

49:21

not only did I not think that that's what it not was,

49:24

I didn't even think think what it not was. Yeah,

49:27

all right. And the last part of that process

49:29

is you got to dry this stuff out. So you

49:32

stack it up, sorted out, and you dry it in the kiln.

49:34

Correct, Yeah, all right, it's like

49:37

you made something out of clay. Should

49:39

we take a break. Let's take a break, man, and

49:41

then we'll take it home. So

50:00

Chuck, you kind of mentioned like early conservation

50:03

folks that you, um were

50:05

in awe of John your h

50:08

John Muir was cool, weirdo um.

50:12

And these people they

50:14

reacted to this rampant um

50:17

deforestation that was going on, like

50:19

there was a significant amount of logging that

50:21

happened between the seventeenth century and

50:24

the mid nineteenth century, up to thirty

50:26

of the original forest land by the end of the Civil War

50:28

was gone. Yeah, and we're talking about

50:31

a billion acres that

50:33

was originally there, so thirty percent

50:35

of that gone, right, And

50:38

there was what was called they they were worried

50:40

that there was going to be a quote national famine

50:42

of wood and it wasn't

50:44

just conservation at the time, Like plastics

50:47

had not been developed. UM.

50:49

Cheap easy metal alloys weren't developed

50:52

until say the mid twentieth century,

50:54

right, so we like it was. Yeah,

50:56

we really used wood a lot and

50:58

for also for fuel, for king, for heating,

51:00

all that stuff we needed would

51:03

so it was gonna be a big deal if we

51:05

ran out of wood. And as a result,

51:07

a lot of people got behind these conservation

51:09

efforts, UM, and especially

51:12

the government here in the United States. UM.

51:14

All government levels owned forest

51:17

land, UM, but for the most

51:19

part, the federal government owns the most. And

51:22

they don't just protect it and say this

51:24

is off limits. They say, uh,

51:26

you guys can come and pay for the

51:29

right to cut down some trees

51:31

from here, but you're you're going to

51:33

follow our rules. Yeah, three three

51:35

million acres of federally owned land

51:38

in this country is public forest

51:40

land. So either like national

51:42

forest or I guess to be used

51:45

by the logging industry if you meet the right conditions

51:47

against Yeah, but I think even national forests

51:50

fall under the that that umbrellas.

51:52

Yeah, I didn't mean that that they were not

51:54

the same. What what does

51:56

happen sometimes UM, is

51:59

say animal will be placed. An

52:01

animal that calls forest land or

52:03

timberland it's home will be placed

52:05

on the endangered list, and as

52:08

a result of that, the forest industry

52:10

will just completely shift. And

52:12

that was the case with the Mexican spotted owl

52:14

in the nineties. So

52:17

the Mexican spotted owl was on its way to becoming

52:19

extinct, and it made its

52:21

home in the West, the western

52:24

softwood temperate forests right

52:27

and um. The US government decided

52:29

that this was enough of a problem that they

52:31

put it on the endangered species list and

52:33

protected it. And that meant that

52:35

its habitat was protected, which

52:38

meant that all of this public land that all

52:40

these logging companies used to go

52:42

and log on, they couldn't log

52:45

there anymore. Like

52:47

no, they didn't know. It was enormous. Um. And

52:50

you know that a federal agency

52:52

is doing its job when it's being sued by conservationists

52:55

and logging companies right at the same

52:58

time over the same thing, so

53:00

or else they're not doing their job at all, depending

53:03

on how you look at it. But eventually the

53:05

Mexican spotted owl um was

53:08

protected, its habitat was protected, and

53:10

so the forestry, the

53:12

timber industry shifted

53:15

eastward, and so they they

53:17

the there was a shift not just in direction

53:19

on the continent, but also in where

53:22

they were taking timber from.

53:24

So now more timber is taken

53:26

from privately held lands in the east

53:29

than public held lands in the west

53:31

because of the Mexican Because of this one type of

53:33

owl completely changed the

53:36

complexion of the timber industry

53:38

in the United States. But the timber

53:40

industry is doing just fine, you

53:42

know, And it's a real it's a real testimony that

53:44

like they can adapt, you

53:47

know, the Mexican spotted owl

53:49

can adapt, but the timber industry

53:51

can. Apparently. You ever see owls in

53:53

Atlanta? Yeah, I have before.

53:55

Why they're amazing. I love owls. Gorgeis

53:58

in that wingspan. It's like it's remark coble.

54:00

When you see one fly, Yes, it's

54:02

like, whoa that looks that's bigger than

54:04

most birds. Have you ever

54:06

had one like perch outside of your window while

54:08

you're trying to sleep, Well, I've got we have one that

54:10

lives behind our house. Does he keep you up? No,

54:13

We've seen it a couple of times and we hear

54:15

it a lot, which I love. It doesn't

54:17

like wake me up or anything. Oh, we had a

54:19

one that was keeping us awake. Really shoot

54:22

it. No, No, that just went out and shying

54:24

a flashlight in this general direction and

54:26

it piped down. Never heard from it again.

54:29

So they got the message, got you, and

54:31

we were out less after that. He's like that guy with the flashlight.

54:34

He's bad news getting out of here. Um.

54:39

Alright, So the federal government owns a

54:41

lot of land which is managed managed,

54:44

managed by um some different bodies.

54:47

Um, but it's you

54:49

know, they try and do their best job with things like

54:51

the Healthy Forest Restoration Act,

54:54

signed in two thousand three by

54:57

G. W. Bush

54:59

all right to help protect forest land.

55:01

So chuck, it's about here though that Like

55:04

this is when I was like, I feel like we're really

55:06

wading into

55:08

an explained territory

55:10

forest. Yeah, there's a lot of like I suspect

55:12

a lot of greenwashing going on, and

55:15

um, so I started poking around and

55:17

I've I've found that the

55:20

Sustainable Forestry Initiative is

55:23

very frequently accused of greenwashing.

55:26

Yeah. So you know how like um like fair

55:28

trade, Like you'll look for a fair trade

55:30

label and you'll be like, I'm gonna pay a little more for this because

55:33

I believe that the people who made it were paid

55:35

a better wage than you know, this competitor

55:38

that wasn't fair trade. That's what the Sustainable

55:40

Forestry Initiative seal of approval

55:42

was meant for. That you could look for it on

55:45

like a ream of paper or something

55:47

and say, oh, well, this thing

55:49

was this paper was harvested using

55:52

say, shelter cutting techniques. There's some sort

55:54

of silvicultural techniques that

55:56

that promotes sustainable forestry.

56:00

The thing is is um. There's some other

56:02

groups, say, like forest Ethics is

56:04

a nonprofit kind of watchdog group

56:07

that has come out and really aggressively said

56:09

that the UM, the Sustainable Forestry

56:12

Initiative is basically just a greenwashing

56:14

front operation that's funded

56:16

by paper companies. But it was international

56:19

paper, international paper. UM.

56:22

Uh yeah. There are a couple of others that's

56:24

like think Weyerhauser was one maybe um

56:27

that that fund this

56:29

this approval company

56:32

or organizations. From

56:34

what I can tell, it looks that way.

56:37

Um and yeah, it's

56:39

yeah, it's very disconcerning. Fortunately,

56:41

there are some that do appear to be utterly

56:43

legitimate, and the chief among them is

56:45

the Forest Stewardship Council.

56:48

They do the same thing. But they're the real deal.

56:50

So this article you sent me that there are a lot

56:52

of major brands dumping the sf I.

56:55

I saw that and I was like, well, that's terrible,

56:58

but they're moving to the better standard. Is

57:00

that correct? That's the impression I have. That

57:03

makes sense now, Yeah, rather than bearing the s

57:05

f I seal of approval like

57:07

um or buying paper that bears that

57:09

seal approval, because it's not even necessarily the paper

57:12

companies that are doing this because they're

57:14

the ones funding the s f I. It's

57:16

like Office Depot is no longer buying

57:19

s f I sourced paper. I'm

57:21

guessing they're probably going with the f s C,

57:24

the Forest Stewardship Council. So

57:26

Hewlett Packard, a T and t um

57:29

pitney bowls all state, they

57:32

buy a lot of paper, shouting them out right

57:34

because they're doing the right thing. It sounds like, yeah, that

57:36

makes more sense. I was confused. I thought they were dropping

57:39

the SFI, which was a good thing. But

57:42

yeah, this is all clear. Now. Hey,

57:45

don't thank me. Thank Forest Ethics,

57:47

who apparently routinely gets season then

57:49

desist letters from uh

57:52

paper companies in the forests or

57:54

the Sustainable

57:56

Forestry Initiative UM and

57:58

then chuck. The

58:01

Force Service itself is often

58:03

criticized for being in bed with UM,

58:05

the timber industry. I'm

58:08

sure they're the Alaska thing

58:10

I was teasing earlier. What is it? There

58:12

is something called the Big Thorn Timber Sale.

58:15

Six thousand acres acres

58:18

of seven hundred year old

58:20

forest in the Tongas in southern

58:23

Alaska up for sale for clear

58:25

cutting, clear cutting. And

58:28

the problem is it is like, yes,

58:31

it is, that's exactly right. UM. The problem

58:33

is it is not just the people are worried that the forest

58:36

won't recover, but that this forest is

58:38

also used by other industries like

58:40

fishing industry, UM, tourism

58:42

industry. These people are like,

58:44

um, we're using this acreage. Can't just come

58:47

come in and cut it down. Here's a couple

58:49

of lawsuits to stop that sale. And

58:52

I guess the federal judge in two thousand

58:54

fifteen, I think March ruled no,

58:56

go ahead, You're well within your rights. Maybe

58:59

discuss thing, but go ahead and sell acres

59:04

of old growth forest in Alaska

59:06

for clear cutting with the presumption that

59:09

it will go to a logging company.

59:11

Yes, you'd be great. Is

59:14

if like, oh, I don't know. Warren Buffett

59:16

bought it. He said,

59:18

I'm gonna build a small house in the middle of it. And that's

59:21

a that gets should wear a cape. So,

59:23

um, deforestation is a thing,

59:25

and I agree with you. We should definitely do an episode

59:28

just on that, right. But that's not

59:30

the only threat to um the

59:32

forests of the world. Now. It

59:35

is a serious threat, but made threats

59:37

are not the only threat. No, there's a few more natural

59:39

threats. UM. Insects

59:42

of course. Uh. Specifically invasive

59:45

species like the Eurasian

59:47

gypsy moth came here in

59:50

the nineteenth century, and when it's a caterpillar,

59:53

it eats the leaves

59:55

of hardwood trees like a lot of

59:57

them. Um. To the tune of it's

1:00:00

nineteen thirty defoliated more

1:00:02

than eighty million acres, so

1:00:04

many East Coast forest eighty

1:00:07

million acres just on the East coast, this little

1:00:09

caterpillar. So that's

1:00:12

an insect disease is a problem.

1:00:14

UM. I know here in Georgia we've sudden

1:00:18

oak death is a big problem.

1:00:20

Uh. And since it was originated

1:00:23

in nineteen where I guess found in nineteen

1:00:25

fifty five, say,

1:00:29

a full forty years after that. I

1:00:32

remember when this happened, it was probably Clinton's

1:00:34

fault. It was Clinton's fault.

1:00:37

Um. Since then, it has killed more than one million

1:00:39

oak trees. Yeah,

1:00:41

that's no gypsy moth, but that's a lot now.

1:00:44

Um. And then lastly, invasive

1:00:46

species are a real problem. Cutzo

1:00:49

that was the other one I want to do. Yeah, oh you want

1:00:51

to do one on Cutzy ye so um.

1:00:53

Cutzy was a great example of an

1:00:55

invasive species. It's a non native,

1:00:58

fast growing vine that and

1:01:00

I think it's native. Japan has plenty

1:01:02

of natural predators that like to eat it right.

1:01:05

Um. Here in the United States, in the southeastern

1:01:08

United States where it was given as a gift

1:01:10

by Japanese businessmen in the thirties. Um,

1:01:14

it doesn't have any natural predators and it just

1:01:16

grows like crazy. And the problem is that

1:01:18

it grows up and over trees and creates

1:01:20

its own It uses the tree structure

1:01:23

and then creates its own canopy around it. It

1:01:25

basically creates a Dicen sphere

1:01:28

around a tree to to

1:01:31

but it's it's a reverse Dicens

1:01:33

sphere. It's accepting the sun from the outside

1:01:35

rather than harvesting it from the inside. Tree

1:01:38

death is what it means. I know that you hate seeing

1:01:40

that, like I just like shake my fist that it

1:01:43

cuts you, Like, get off of that tree, just

1:01:46

just stay on the ground. But do you ever take

1:01:48

time to go out there and with your scissor shosht

1:01:51

off that tree very frequently? Um

1:01:54

mile a minute weed is another good example. Apparently

1:01:57

another Asian import that

1:02:00

has choked the Mid Atlantic region. I

1:02:02

guess the lesson here is this uh. An

1:02:04

Asian business person ever gives

1:02:06

you uh non native plant

1:02:08

as a gift, Smile, politely say

1:02:11

thank you very much. Also don't make eye contact

1:02:13

right and say thank you very much. But I cannot

1:02:15

accept this gift. But would you like to go have

1:02:18

a lovely sushi meal? Anything

1:02:21

else? I got nothing else? So that is timber.

1:02:24

If you want go type that word into

1:02:26

the search part how stuff works dot com.

1:02:28

And since I said search parts, time for listener

1:02:31

mail. I'm

1:02:33

gonna call this coolest tattoo I've scene in a while.

1:02:36

Hey, guys, listen to Satanic Panic today

1:02:39

and I loved it. I loved

1:02:41

that episode, by the way. Yeah, we've

1:02:43

gotten some good feedback. Jerry's even nodding and

1:02:46

she hates most of what we do. She's not even aware

1:02:48

of most of what we did. Uh. She

1:02:50

was born in n two this writer, and she says,

1:02:52

I remember family members talking

1:02:54

about parts of our home state of Kentucky that

1:02:57

we're lousy with Satan worshippers. One

1:02:59

of the things I like best in the episode was when we talked about

1:03:01

the influence works of fiction had

1:03:03

on superstition. Made me think of how I've

1:03:05

encountered this in my own life. I have a great love

1:03:08

of wigia boards. And in

1:03:10

fact, I don't think she's heard the episode on wigia

1:03:12

boards that she didn't reference it. Oh, that was a good

1:03:14

episode, So Carrie, we did an episode on that.

1:03:16

You should listen to it. I think they

1:03:18

are pretty and have I have great memories of playing

1:03:20

with one as a kid. I have quite a few

1:03:22

at home, um

1:03:24

including I have quite a few Wigia board

1:03:27

items, including a tattoo on my chest.

1:03:29

And she attached to photo. She's got

1:03:32

like the upper lettering

1:03:35

of the wigia board, like right across,

1:03:37

like under her neckline, at the top of her chest. Yeah,

1:03:40

it's and like when she wears like a dress

1:03:44

with that exposed, it's just

1:03:46

lovely looking like that pont and everything.

1:03:49

I saw the photo and I thought it was really cool looking. But

1:03:51

of course she's people are gonna say, like, what's

1:03:54

up with this girl? This

1:03:56

has led to some very interesting conversations, of

1:03:58

course with people. A lot of people really like

1:04:01

it, like me, but some have been a little

1:04:03

freaked out by it. Thanks to movies

1:04:05

like an Exorcist and more recently wegia

1:04:08

uh, the wigia board has been given a lot more power, and I

1:04:10

feel that it really deserves I had my tattoo

1:04:12

for over a year and have not noticed any paranormal

1:04:15

activity surrounding me, and I have not

1:04:17

been possessed, and I have not had a demon

1:04:19

used my chest as a doorway to our world.

1:04:22

So I think I will be Okay, we'll

1:04:24

see. Keep up the great work that is

1:04:26

from carry uh parentheses

1:04:29

like the movie, a

1:04:32

lot of horror movie references in that.

1:04:34

Yeah, I thought it was very cool tattoo. Nice

1:04:36

man um well carry

1:04:39

right, that's right, Okay, Thanks a lot, Carrie for writing

1:04:41

in and Uh. If you want

1:04:44

to write to us, you can join us on Facebook

1:04:46

dot com slash stuff you should know. You can tweet

1:04:48

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1:04:51

can send us an email to stuff podcast

1:04:53

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1:04:55

us at our home on the web, Stuff you should know

1:04:57

dot com

1:05:03

for moralness and thousands of other topics.

1:05:05

Visit how stuff Works dot com

1:05:07

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