0:19

Welcome to subject to interpretation, a

0:22

podcast, which takes us deep into the topics

0:24

that matter to professional interpreters. I'm

0:27

your host, Maria Sava Wallace . Welcome

0:29

this program is recorded via zoom in

0:31

both video and audio format. An

0:34

article published in forms, Matt magazine in

0:37

December of 2019, put

0:39

the rates of failure for new year's

0:41

resolutions at 80%, the

0:44

top three reasons you may ask most

0:46

people who make resolutions, aren't

0:49

starting with the right foundation. That

0:51

includes a willingness to change their

0:53

consciousness, to be accountable

0:56

to themselves and to face their

0:58

fears of failure or even success.

1:03

So as we bid farewell to 2020

1:05

and get ready to welcome a much anticipated

1:08

new year, I've asked that Stein , that aorta

1:10

to join me to talk about the knowledge interpreters

1:13

can apply from the ancient Totex

1:16

in order to be able to reach their fullest potentials.

1:18

Welcome Aine.

1:20

Hi Maria. How you doing ? Thank you for having me.

1:22

Oh, I'm thrilled to have you here. Aine

1:24

. Let's set the stage

1:27

today. We're going to talk about a

1:29

book called the four agreements it's

1:32

written by Don Miguel Reese . He's

1:34

a renowned me , Mexican spiritual

1:36

teacher who shares the wisdom

1:38

and knowledge of the ancient tox

1:41

. Tell us a little more

1:43

about this book.

1:44

Well, actually it it's a book that

1:47

it was given to me a long time ago and

1:49

, uh, I was surprised to find out actually

1:52

that it was written originally in English,

1:54

even though the author is Mexican. Uh,

1:57

and the reason I found that out , uh , interestingly

2:00

enough is because I said, well, I should read it in Spanish.

2:02

And when I read in Spanish, it was clear

2:05

to me that it was a translation, because

2:07

I think that all of us become a little bit

2:10

too picky about things

2:12

that have to do with interpretation and translation . They said , oh,

2:14

that's, that's a translation right there. So

2:16

anyhow , uh , when I got it, I,

2:19

I really liked it. It , uh, I

2:22

connected with it in several levels and

2:25

I personally enjoyed it. I remember , uh

2:27

, buying several copies and giving them to my

2:29

kids, especially my oldest. Uh,

2:32

cause I thought it would be fruitful

2:35

for them to read the , the book. So I

2:37

found it , uh , very interesting

2:40

practical, short, which is

2:42

a very good , um, thing

2:44

about a book for me anyhow, and it

2:46

was not preachy, which is what I like the best.

2:49

It did talk about personal commitment.

2:51

It talked about a way to improve your

2:53

performance personally. And

2:56

then I found out that a lot of people liked

2:58

it, you know, famous people , uh,

3:01

talked about how well

3:03

it had , uh , sat with them. So that

3:06

was it. That's how I got introduced to the four

3:08

agreements and I started

3:10

applying them and it was much

3:12

later than I realized

3:14

maybe it has to do more with interpretation

3:17

that I thought it did.

3:18

So let's so before we go into what

3:21

it can do for interpreters, let's talk a

3:23

little bit about some of the main

3:25

themes in the book. Uh, the

3:27

book begins with the idea

3:30

that we are socialized to

3:32

have self-limiting beliefs that

3:35

Rob us of the opportunity to

3:38

experience things fully from

3:40

our own perspective. And it also gives

3:43

us an opportunity to review

3:46

a code of conduct that we can use to

3:48

transform our lives.

3:49

Correct. And I actually liked

3:52

that part very much so because

3:55

he talked about , uh , how

3:58

do you create your thoughts when

4:00

you are a little kid and it

4:02

tells about how you get socialized by

4:05

hearing opinions. And

4:07

when you hear an opinion, if you believe

4:10

the opinion and accept the opinion,

4:12

you create an agreement with that opinion,

4:15

you agree with it. And once you agree with

4:17

it, it becomes a norm for

4:19

your behavior and conduct. And

4:21

it's really interesting because I

4:23

mean, there's authors all over the place . It has been said

4:26

a million times about the fact that you

4:28

are, what you think about, right

4:30

. You know, Ford was , uh , very famous of

4:32

saying, you know, if you think

4:34

you are, whether you, where you

4:36

think you are, where you think you

4:38

can or whether you can, you'll

4:41

be right, because your thoughts, this

4:44

agreements that you make with yourself in

4:46

your mind become the

4:48

directives of your life. So it,

4:51

that impacted me quite a

4:53

bit. And then of course it

4:56

gives you very simple steps. Like I said, one

4:58

of the things I liked about the book is that it

5:00

gave you super simple steps to follow, to

5:03

have specific results pretty

5:06

quickly immediately, if you wanted to about

5:09

, uh , modifying behaviors that

5:11

you thought were not , uh

5:14

, changeable.

5:16

Now, one of the principle premises

5:19

in , in this book, especially

5:22

about our framework,

5:24

how we view the world and the

5:26

prism by which we

5:29

each conduct ourselves has

5:31

to do with language, the

5:34

symbol biology that makes the world

5:36

goes a go around. And it also conditions

5:39

us. You mentioned that a little bit earlier, but

5:41

symbols and therefore words are culturally

5:44

and socially bound and perhaps

5:47

even biased, they're attached

5:49

to norms, shoulds shouldn't

5:53

and absolute truth that are relatives

5:56

since languages don't use this

5:58

, even though we might have an equivalent word

6:00

for a tree in several languages,

6:03

right . A tree doesn't necessarily have

6:05

to symbolize the same thing

6:07

to each culture. How, how

6:09

does that affect our understanding

6:12

of each other in communication?

6:14

Well, it's, it's important. I mean, if

6:16

you, if you read Fred Hernandez <inaudible>

6:18

and I apologize, I don't speak French. So I

6:20

might have murdered the last name, but when

6:22

you study a little bit of Semitics you talk

6:24

about, he talks about specific about the

6:27

signs, right? A sign, the word, and

6:30

the word has two parts, the signifier

6:32

and the signified and the signify

6:34

is the word itself. But the

6:37

meaning changes so rapidly

6:39

and it's affected by not only language,

6:42

culture, age, et cetera . Right.

6:45

We were in one of the conferences , uh

6:47

, for interpret some years ago. And one

6:49

of our colleagues was given a really interesting

6:51

, um , presentation

6:53

about this subject. And he said, you

6:55

know, write down what you , uh,

6:58

think about the word tip. And

7:01

immediately everybody started writing down

7:04

what tip is, you know, and of course we all

7:06

spoke English and we all had, but

7:08

the idea what tip

7:11

meant and how it's interpreted

7:13

was completely different in

7:15

a group of a lot of linguists. And

7:17

that tells you how important it is that it's

7:20

not only the word itself, but

7:22

it's meaning within the culture, within

7:25

the , uh , parameters within

7:27

, uh , the environment or where

7:29

it's used. And that interested me a lot

7:31

because in language, as we know, which

7:33

is our tools, words, and language,

7:36

how does that affect us? And I

7:38

started thinking a lot about that, about this agreements

7:41

that we've made about certain words that

7:43

potentially don't have the same signified

7:47

or meaning for different

7:49

people, even though we believe they do.

7:51

So that brings us straight into the first agreement,

7:54

be impeccable in your

7:56

use of words. Right? Let's talk about

7:59

that.

7:59

Well, I, as I told you, before, I, it

8:02

took me years, actually I read the book many

8:05

times and it took me years

8:07

to all of a sudden connect this idea

8:09

of the four agreements. How

8:12

does that, you know,

8:14

kind of mesh with interpretation

8:17

and the first agreement is be impeccable

8:19

with your word and what

8:21

does being impeccable means? You know, one

8:23

of them is, do not sin, right? Impeccable,

8:26

you don't sin. But the other one,

8:29

the meaning of impeccable simply

8:31

is that you are as

8:34

exact with the meaning as it was before,

8:37

when it was created. And I started thinking, Hmm

8:39

, that's exactly what we

8:41

have to do. Right? We

8:43

have to be impeccable in the sense,

8:45

not about , about sinning,

8:48

but about being flawless. For

8:51

me, being impeccable with your

8:54

words as an interpreter means that when you're interpreting

8:56

from one language to another, you have to

8:58

be flawless, transferring

9:01

the meaning and the word. And that's what it means for

9:03

me to be impeccable with your word, when

9:05

you're an interpreter that you are flawlessly

9:08

transferring meaning.

9:10

And when we talk about flawlessly transferring

9:13

a meaning , um , things like register,

9:16

for example, come into play very

9:18

strongly because we may have a word that

9:21

has , um , or a series of words, which

9:24

have the same meaning, but they appear

9:27

in all different kinds of registers, whether it's

9:29

legalese, of course , or medical , um

9:31

, jargon, or whether it's just

9:33

, um, you know, street talk.

9:36

And that's really, really important for us interpreters,

9:38

isn't it for us to really be present

9:41

and identify what is

9:43

actually being said. So we choose the

9:45

most appropriate word, not just any

9:48

word,

9:48

Correct. I mean, if you compare

9:51

the code of ethics for

9:53

interpreters in , in whether

9:56

it's legal medical, one of the cans

9:58

of the code interpreters, oftentimes

10:00

the first one is accuracy

10:03

and completeness, which is

10:06

the first agreement be

10:08

impeccable with your words . So you see when

10:10

, when I realize that I go, Hmm , this

10:13

me perfectly, I wonder what happened

10:15

with the others. And it turns

10:17

out that all of the agreements are

10:19

very applicable to us as interpreters

10:22

and mesh very well with our code of ethics.

10:25

So let's talk about the second agreement. Don't

10:27

take anything personally that

10:29

can be looked at in several different ways. Mm-hmm

10:31

<affirmative> of course. And , uh , I , you

10:33

know, I you're right, but

10:36

there's two things that I have , uh,

10:38

heard from interpreters. And one of them is what

10:40

if I'm hearing this horrible

10:43

narration of somebody who's a victim of

10:46

a crime, or is a relative

10:48

of a victim of a crime? Well, if you

10:50

take it personally, you,

10:52

all of a sudden are outside your,

10:55

your job as an interpreter,

10:57

you might not be as effective as you could,

11:00

especially because as you know, when we

11:02

teach interpretation at the Institute, we

11:04

talk about visualization as a very important

11:07

tool to improve performance

11:09

in consecutive. And it Dawn

11:11

on me. Oh , how important it is to remember

11:14

that you are visualizing,

11:17

but more like a movie. And not as,

11:19

even if you are the protagonist, you

11:21

have to learn to separate that

11:24

movie, that visual interpretation of

11:26

what you're hearing into

11:29

something that is not personally affecting

11:31

you. So even if you, at the end, cause after

11:33

all, as an interpret, you're gonna say, and then he

11:35

stabbed me four times.

11:37

<laugh> yeah , you're internalizing that. That's

11:39

Right. So you have to keep it away. You

11:41

can't take it personally because

11:44

if you do, you're probably gonna get

11:46

emotionally attached and you're no longer

11:48

being objective and you

11:50

might no longer be impeccable with your words,

11:52

which would be a violation of the first agreement.

11:55

And one of the cans of

11:57

the code of ethics.

11:59

It's interesting to me, as I said earlier, that you

12:01

can interpret the idea of not taking things

12:03

personally, a couple of different ways. Mm-hmm

12:06

<affirmative> another way is that

12:09

since interpretation

12:12

is so subjective, it's

12:14

entirely possible that your version

12:17

of an interpretation and my version

12:19

of an interpretation are

12:22

completely different and still

12:24

, um, render the same meaning

12:27

from the original language. Of course,

12:28

Of course,

12:29

I always find it interesting that

12:32

interpreters don't cut themselves enough

12:34

slack in their work.

12:37

And they try to judge themselves

12:39

by what they have heard from other

12:41

people, or they listen to other

12:43

people's comments and those comments

12:46

may or may not be ill informed

12:48

. And that affects

12:50

their self knowledge , their self confidence

12:53

, their ability to problem solve.

12:56

Yeah, actually it's a good point.

12:58

And first of all, this idea

13:01

of subject

13:03

to interpretation came because of, because

13:06

of this feeling about the subjectivity

13:08

of interpretation. Now it

13:11

depends. I mean, there's two theories about

13:13

it. I think that it's not so much subjective

13:17

as it's varied. And what

13:19

I mean by that. And I often tell my students

13:21

bottom line is you still have to be impeccable

13:23

with your words . So you have to transmit the

13:25

meaning correctly, but

13:28

you can use several ways to

13:30

convey the same meaning. And I

13:33

say often interpreting

13:35

is not like ATIC right where

13:38

you have to go. One plus one is

13:40

to another way, because an

13:43

interpretation there's several correct

13:45

ways to solve any linguistic problem,

13:47

which is what we do as interpreters.

13:50

Right? So yes. Uh,

13:53

we have to incorporate the idea that because

13:55

another interpreter says

13:58

it differently. That doesn't mean that you're wrong.

14:00

That means that you're taking a different path

14:02

to get to the same place. Um,

14:05

and yes, we are exposed to

14:08

some people that are not even interpreters

14:10

that have , uh , limited knowledge

14:13

of one of the languages or the others or

14:15

what we do for a living and intervene

14:18

and sometimes very forcefully, right.

14:21

And I've had interpreters say, well, the attorney

14:23

interrupted me and said, blah,

14:25

blah, blah. And yes, we have to

14:27

learn to not take that personally, either to

14:30

stay in your role as a professional interpreter

14:32

and you know, and they have their opinion

14:35

and they, and by the way, don't

14:37

take it personally because there is a possibility

14:40

you could be wrong.

14:42

Yeah . That is , that is true . That is true.

14:45

I, I like to remind people

14:47

that, that

14:50

since everyone is interpreting

14:52

through their own prism, which is

14:55

how we started talking about the symbol biology

14:57

and the culture and the social

14:59

aspects, everyone will

15:01

see things differently. It's , it's even

15:03

people, two people in the same family will

15:06

see things differently and

15:08

they have grown up together. They're in the same culture,

15:11

et cetera . It's interesting, isn't it?

15:13

Sure . Yes. And when

15:16

we are interpreting , uh , we

15:18

are exposed to different

15:21

uses of the same words. And

15:24

again, that doesn't mean that we are better or

15:26

the other ones are better. It' just, it

15:28

happens to be a different approach

15:31

to the same. And what I think is important

15:33

to keep in mind is that you

15:35

always, if you are a professional interpreter,

15:37

you're gonna interpret, you're doing your job correctly.

15:40

You'll arrive to the same , um

15:43

, place, which is a correct interpretation

15:46

of, of that linguistic

15:48

problem. Whether you got here through

15:51

this way or through this other way. And

15:54

also we have, especially because you and I

15:56

are mainly legal interpreters

15:58

, uh , we tend

16:01

to forget

16:03

sometimes that we are in an adversarial

16:07

situation where even

16:09

if it's not necessarily true,

16:11

that you made a mistake, some

16:14

of the participants of that adversarial

16:17

situation might use this

16:20

perceived subjectivity to

16:23

advance their cause . Whether, whether

16:26

it affects you personally or not, because

16:28

they're there to do their job, which happens

16:30

to be different from what you do as

16:32

an interpreter. So yes, stay

16:35

, uh , focused on not

16:37

taking things personally is very, very important.

16:39

Cause sometimes we get combative, you know, and I've had

16:41

at least a couple situations where

16:44

one of our colleagues gets so offended

16:48

about something that was told to

16:50

them that they react

16:53

inappropriately, even though they were actually wrong.

16:55

And it would have been a lot easier to say the

16:57

interpreter stands corrected rather than fighting

17:00

and taking it personally.

17:02

Now, as far as subjectivity is, is

17:04

concerned, one way to make

17:07

sure that you are not

17:10

acting , um , subjectively

17:12

whether it's consciously or unconsciously is

17:15

not to make assumptions. That is

17:17

the third. Um, that is the

17:19

third agreement, isn't it?

17:21

Yes, it is. It don't make any assumptions.

17:23

I think that the, the

17:26

biggest issue here is that as

17:28

interpreters, we tend

17:30

to assume all the time that we

17:32

understood what was said

17:34

to us. And we also assume

17:37

that people understood us. And

17:40

that's a challenge for interpreters because

17:42

any assumption to that effect might

17:44

be a, create a

17:47

difficult situation. That again,

17:49

might cause you to not be backable with

17:51

your words because you assumed something

17:54

that was not true. And I think ambiguity

17:56

is a perfect example to talk about,

17:59

right? Uh , these assumptions, because

18:01

there's many , uh , situations as an

18:03

interpreter and you know that

18:06

you assume that somebody

18:08

that you assume you're correct. And , uh,

18:11

when I talk to monolingual people, I

18:13

, uh , who often assume

18:16

that, Hey , you know, to be an interpret , you have to do

18:18

is say one word from one language to that's

18:21

it. So I , I ask them , uh

18:23

, well , what if , uh , the doctor says

18:25

to you, for instance, that is very, very

18:27

important that you get this treatment that

18:30

could save your life, but it's important that

18:32

you do it biweekly and

18:36

ask people, what does biweekly

18:38

mean? You're you don't even need to don't

18:40

tell me in another language, tell me your own language. English.

18:43

What does bilingual, I mean, biweekly

18:45

mean ,

18:45

Does it mean every other week? Does it mean twice

18:47

a week? Does it mean twice a month? What

18:49

does it mean?

18:50

Exactly. And all of a sudden you get

18:53

three answers and I go, so

18:55

which one is the correct one? Right. But

18:58

as interpreters, you have to , we have to be

19:00

aware of that, those ambiguities,

19:03

because they happen all the time. Mm-hmm

19:05

<affirmative> what does a couple mean? And

19:07

I don't mean a couple of like two

19:09

people that are , uh , as a

19:11

couple, which is another meaning, but we

19:14

were with a couple of friends. If

19:16

you're an interpreter, do you interpret that as

19:19

too ,

19:20

Or a

19:21

Few , a few? And if

19:24

you make assumptions, you might interpret

19:26

incorrectly.

19:28

Exactly .

19:28

Make assumptions.

19:29

I wanted , I wanted to , um, share

19:31

this with you, cuz it's really, it it's interesting.

19:33

This was actually in the book and

19:36

we, it alluded to the

19:38

fact that as we go through

19:41

life and we communicate in

19:43

, in , or in , in interactions, we

19:46

try to anticipate the behaviors

19:49

and the language and

19:51

the interactions we're going to have with

19:53

other people. And that's

19:55

kind of a , a , a, some kind of social contract

19:58

that we have. We, you know, hello,

20:01

Aine , how are you? And then you're going to reply

20:04

presumably , um , with a greeting

20:06

as well. But when

20:08

we are uncertain, we fill

20:10

in the gaps because we are

20:13

expecting things to perhaps go a

20:15

certain way. And that's something that interpreters

20:18

can ill afford to do. Right?

20:19

A absolutely. I , and again,

20:22

this is why, when we talk more about

20:24

interpretation, it's clear

20:27

for people that is not as easy as it

20:29

sounds because on,

20:31

on one hand, you're absolutely right when you anticipate

20:34

and you assume, you know, you know,

20:36

the famous saying in English about assuming so,

20:40

but on the other hand, we teach a

20:42

technique called prediction,

20:44

Right?

20:44

Right. So as interpreters, especially

20:47

this simultaneous mode, one of

20:49

the techniques you use is to predict what

20:51

comes next. But if you

20:53

predict that you're violating your third agreement

20:56

or not, and, and that very

20:58

, uh, important

21:00

balance between not

21:03

assuming incorrectly, but being able

21:06

to , uh , project or,

21:08

or predict what's coming is, is an important

21:11

thing. And it's important technique to

21:13

learn. So we don't assume. And

21:15

I think the biggest issue for interpreters

21:18

is that by not assuming

21:21

you have to take the responsibility, that

21:23

if you're not sure, or if there's a

21:25

possibility that you're

21:28

not correcting your assumption that

21:31

you must ask.

21:32

Absolutely.

21:33

And then that opens the door

21:36

to many new interpreters of , well

21:38

, I don't want to interrupt the judge or I don't

21:40

want to interrupt the attorneys. Right. Well

21:42

, but if you really stick to the fourth agreement,

21:45

I mean the third agreement, I apologize, the

21:47

third agreement says, don't assume anything.

21:50

So you don't take an

21:52

, a, you don't make a choice

21:55

or you don't guess based on your assumptions,

21:58

because then you're not complying

22:00

with the third agreement and the

22:03

code of ethics, which I keep on coming back to.

22:05

Uh , and I invite all of the people who are listening

22:07

to us. If you have a chance, just go

22:10

and read the four agreements, at least the actual agreements,

22:12

if not the whole book, and then find

22:15

them in your code of ethics. And you're gonna see that

22:17

they almost go hand in hand ,

22:19

Well, that takes us straight into the

22:21

fourth agreement, which mm-hmm , <affirmative> actually the

22:23

first three agreements do not work without

22:26

the fourth agreement. Right . Right

22:28

. And that is to always do your best,

22:30

Always do your best. And as an interpreter,

22:33

I often say, we're always climbing a

22:35

stairway, right. We're looking to go.

22:38

Uh, and I talk about the most

22:41

important things. I think it interpret has

22:43

to understand. And the first commitment is

22:45

the precision of transferring.

22:48

And, but you're always shooting for the most elegant

22:51

solution. You talked about , uh , register

22:54

, uh , you talk about the tone of

22:56

voice and all these things that , but

22:58

we have to understand that are first, at least

23:00

the way I see it is the first thing

23:03

that we have to do is to precisely convey

23:05

the meaning. But because you always

23:07

have to do your best, you keep on climbing that

23:09

stairway to become precise, economic

23:13

and elegant. And what I mean by elegant

23:15

is not necessarily that it sounds, you

23:18

know, like, oh, you speak like

23:20

the King's , uh , uh , English,

23:22

but because in my

23:24

opinion, elegant could be even because

23:28

it's the same register,

23:30

the same impact of

23:33

the original. And that's a very elegant

23:35

interpretation. So we

23:37

always do our best. And I say, for

23:40

us, that's a stairway to heaven. We're

23:42

never gonna stop learning or

23:44

acquiring information about , uh

23:46

, uh , being better at our job.

23:49

Now, when you do your best, this is

23:52

interesting. Very, very interesting to

23:54

me. Um , reading it, you

23:56

don't give the judge now

23:58

that judge can be your internal judge, that

24:01

judge can be other people that,

24:03

I mean, that judge can be anyone, a little voice behind

24:05

in the back of your head to find you the

24:08

opportunity to find you guilty when

24:10

you perform your

24:13

best, then you

24:15

have, there's no question that you

24:17

have done the best with what you have. And

24:19

if perhaps you fail in

24:21

that case, then you will have to learn from it

24:23

and figure out what to do about it. But

24:26

you certainly haven't, haven't given it, you

24:28

know, half a half effort.

24:30

Right? Right. You still did your best. And

24:32

that's important as an interpreter

24:35

to recognize that doing your best might

24:37

still not be enough. And

24:40

we have to recognize interpretation

24:43

is a human endeavor and

24:45

therefore imperfect. As

24:48

far as I know, nobody can interpret

24:50

a hundred percent, right . A hundred percent of the time.

24:53

So what we strive for as interpreters

24:56

is consistently perform at a high

24:58

level. And that's why you're always striving

25:00

to do your best, being your best

25:02

, doing your best every day doesn't mean that you're the

25:04

best, but that you're striving to

25:07

be the best.

25:08

It's also , um, been

25:11

noted that a person is at

25:13

their best when they're enjoying what they're

25:15

doing. And when they,

25:18

they are , they feel like they're in their element.

25:20

They're one with whatever

25:23

, um , endeavor they're working at , as

25:25

opposed to it being a

25:28

performance based task.

25:30

If you are just one , if you're just worried about,

25:32

or just doing it because you have to, because

25:35

there's a paycheck at the end of the road, et

25:37

cetera , you can probably come up

25:39

with a competent interpretation, but

25:42

overall it's not

25:44

really going to , um , reflect

25:46

your best efforts.

25:48

Yeah. I , I don't think I had ever worded it that

25:50

way, but that's a very good , uh , way

25:52

of putting it. And I'm

25:54

happy to say that most people that I know

25:56

in the field really enjoy

25:58

interpreting, and I

26:00

believe that the really good interpreters

26:03

must enjoy it first. Um

26:05

, I remember telling

26:08

somebody a long time ago, man, I got hooked as

26:10

soon as I started interpreting. And

26:12

it was really enjoyable and

26:14

a little bit in on the cynical part. I

26:17

said , you know, I get paid to be a VOE, you

26:20

know, to hear people's lives

26:23

and successes and tragedies

26:26

and everything because , uh , you're

26:28

there, you're part of the conversation and

26:30

you're there and you actually got paid to do

26:32

it. So I think it's a very

26:34

good thing to remind interpreters.

26:37

This is one of those things that you really have

26:39

to enjoy , uh , to

26:41

really do your best. It's, it's

26:44

not a bureaucratic job. It really isn't. And

26:46

I think the more , uh , people started

26:48

getting tested as interpreters.

26:51

We could see that divide between

26:53

the people who just took it. Hey, you know,

26:56

I do this, I come in, I interpret, I go home

26:58

and that's it. And I'll do as little as possible

27:00

because it's a bureaucratic job when

27:03

their performance was evaluated. Many

27:05

of them were not up to par. So

27:07

yes, you definitely have to do your best by enjoying

27:10

what you do.

27:11

And, and, and one of the, the

27:14

key, I guess, the , the core tenets

27:16

of your teaching strategy

27:18

and your teaching philosophy

27:21

is that practice isn't doing.

27:23

And so in order to

27:25

be your best, you can't just

27:28

go and repeat the same thing over and over

27:30

again, with hoping to have a different result.

27:32

As we know, you need to practice as

27:34

much as you can. And that requires patience

27:37

and it requires sometimes failure.

27:41

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. When

27:43

you , uh, we talk

27:45

a lot about it in the Institute about the difference

27:47

between being in your performance zone, which

27:50

is when you're concentrating

27:52

what you already know how to do, and you

27:54

have mastered versus when you're in a

27:56

learning zone. And when you're in your learning zone,

27:59

you actually expect

28:01

to make mistakes. So you can understand

28:05

and improve that

28:07

mistake by knowing about it. So,

28:10

yes, it's , uh , it's crucial actually to

28:12

have the separation and understand, yes,

28:14

we're gonna have some mistakes and some failures, no

28:16

question about it. The difference is what

28:18

you do with them. That's why practice by itself

28:21

is not what creates

28:23

perfect deliberate practice does.

28:27

And, and the one final point

28:30

I wanted to make about when you

28:32

are doing your best is that

28:34

it is really, really critical that

28:37

you practice self care , because

28:39

you have to be honest with yourself

28:42

about where you are, what

28:44

you need to do. Um, you

28:46

also need to practice self care in terms

28:48

of fatigue level and

28:52

workload . Perhaps if you do not do

28:54

that, then you, you actually can't

28:56

do your best. Can you,

28:57

You cannot. And also you go back

29:00

to the third agreement, you

29:02

know, and, and, and all of the agreements

29:04

and self care is part of

29:07

not taking things personally, in the sense

29:09

of, oh, no, I have to do this no matter if I die.

29:11

Right. Um , so you have

29:14

to , uh , practice self care . It's a very important

29:16

area of our profession that I think

29:18

is just now starting to be even

29:21

talked about , uh, cuz I

29:23

remember it when I started this business

29:25

30 years ago, it , it was actually

29:27

the opposite self care was, Hey, I'm

29:30

macho , I'm an interpreter. I can do this for 17

29:33

hours straight. And I, I I'll brag

29:35

about it. Right. And the

29:37

reality is we know now and studies show

29:40

that if you do that, yeah, you might be very

29:42

natural , but you're not doing your best. And certainly

29:45

you probably are not being impeccable

29:47

with your words because now you're

29:50

making mistakes. You don't even realize due

29:52

to fatigue.

29:53

That's right. And, and it turns out

29:55

that , um, Don

29:58

Ru um , didn't stop at four agreements.

30:00

Although that particular book ends

30:03

with four agreements, he actually came up with

30:05

a fifth agreement. Do you remember what that one is?

30:07

<laugh> well, how about you? Tell us what the fifth agreement

30:10

is.

30:10

Well, it's the one that I like to call trust, but

30:12

verify, but it's a little more , um , sophisticated

30:15

than that. It's be skeptical,

30:18

but learn to listen. In

30:20

other words, what you see in your mind, what

30:23

your mind perceives is not

30:25

the absolute reality. And

30:27

it may also not be what others see

30:30

Of course, and you know, those famous filters

30:33

that, that , uh , the Miguel Reese talks

30:35

about that says, you know , you hear

30:37

opinion, accept opinion. You make an

30:39

agreement and your agreement filters

30:41

information. And if you are

30:44

convinced that this is true, or this is not

30:46

true, or this is one way or the other, that

30:48

definitely is , is gonna give you a different

30:50

perspective or a different view. And,

30:53

and so trust would verify something

30:55

that I say a lot, I

30:58

think is attributed to Ronald

31:00

Reagan as far as , uh , making it popular.

31:02

I don't know if he came up with it or not. I don't even know

31:04

if he really said that a lot, but

31:07

sounds good to me. And trust

31:09

would verify, really applies

31:12

a hundred percent to interpreters because

31:14

I think if you don't follow that fifth

31:16

agreement, if you don't realize that.

31:19

Yeah. Uh, I think that that's

31:21

true, but just let me check. You make

31:23

a lot of mistakes and we hear this

31:26

, uh , constantly when interpreters

31:28

have made the same mistake over and over again,

31:30

because they're a hundred percent convinced that they're

31:32

doing it right. And they have never verified

31:35

it. And you know, we,

31:37

we hear that , uh , with words and

31:40

we are certain approaches that became

31:42

even part of the vernacular for interpreters

31:44

that , uh , years later we found out, Hmm

31:46

. Maybe that was not the exact way

31:48

of saying that, but it just became popular.

31:51

I said, nobody bothered to check.

31:53

Well, one of the reasons why I love this book and

31:55

the these agreements that we're talking about is because

31:58

you can actually look at the

32:00

agreements in so many different ways. And

32:02

the fifth agreement for me is also , um,

32:06

I can also , I also look at it in the

32:08

sense that you

32:11

must not , um , jump

32:13

on any bandwagon just

32:15

because you heard it. In other words,

32:17

if you are interpreting in a medical encounter

32:19

or any type of encounter, just

32:21

because you're hearing one story doesn't

32:24

necessarily mean that that is the

32:26

only side of the truth. And really you

32:28

should not get bound and caught up and

32:31

you should learn to listen so that you

32:33

can remain objective.

32:35

Yep . That's it. That's it. I like

32:37

it.

32:38

<laugh> so how do we, okay,

32:40

so , so how do we break these agreements? Um,

32:43

how do we make the new agreements sticks

32:45

? They say that we

32:47

need to use the same power to

32:49

break an agreement that

32:52

we use to make it.

32:55

Yeah. Well, the first agreement for

32:57

me in that sense is the most important.

33:00

And , um, Stuart wild

33:02

always said the , the objective

33:05

of the discipline is don't

33:07

make an agreement unless, you know, you want

33:10

to do it. And

33:12

I, you started at , at the beginning by saying,

33:14

you know, how many of the new year resolutions

33:17

are broken? And I ha I I'm

33:19

convinced that it has to do with people saying,

33:22

I'm gonna do this or not do

33:24

that, or stop doing this, et cetera , because

33:27

they haven't been able to. And because they

33:29

think they have to, but they

33:32

really are not convinced

33:35

they're not being impeccable with their words

33:37

to themselves. So I tell

33:39

people , uh , myself included,

33:42

don't make an agreement. If

33:44

you are not have the dis , you're

33:47

not gonna have the discipline to stick to it. And

33:49

an agreement should be something that you agree

33:51

to, not that you force yourself

33:53

to do. And my

33:56

guess is, that's why most of these new

33:58

year's resolutions are broken because, and

34:00

, and many of them start with nos, which

34:03

for me, that's already a problem, right? I'm

34:05

not gonna eat donuts anymore. Well,

34:08

good luck if you have been eating them for 60

34:10

years. Right. Right. Uh , so

34:12

being impeccable with your word means, are

34:15

you gonna keep your word to

34:18

yourself as a discipline? And if

34:20

not, then you shouldn't commit to it.

34:23

And it would probably be helpful to

34:25

take stock and inventory

34:27

of what you believe your current agreements

34:30

are and what the agreements

34:33

you would like to replace those with are

34:35

so that you actually have a roadmap ,

34:37

Correct? Correct. You have

34:39

to see what are your filters now

34:42

and what do you really want, want to,

34:44

and I think that's the first one, what

34:46

do you want to do? And you have to be impeccable

34:49

with it.

34:50

And just in the same vein, as

34:52

we talked about earlier , um , that

34:55

practice is really key

34:57

to learning new behaviors

35:00

and to learning new skills. You also

35:02

have to practice forgiveness if you don't get it right

35:04

the first time. Right.

35:05

Right. Absolutely.

35:09

Aine . Tell us

35:11

how this book has helped you in

35:13

your career as an interpreter.

35:15

Well , um, in many

35:17

ways, first of all, to organize my thoughts

35:20

as to how to

35:22

interpret in court, but also how to teach

35:24

people. I, I like being an

35:26

interpreter. I , I said it many times I

35:28

might be a competent interpreter, but my

35:30

real calling is to train others and

35:33

to share with them. And so

35:36

when I go back to the four agreements,

35:39

I go, well, first of all, if I'm

35:41

gonna be Impec with my worst , then I

35:44

walk the talk. Um,

35:47

there's , uh , many people

35:49

out there doing training for interpreters that

35:51

I know of. And some of them don't interpret

35:53

anymore. And some of them don't attend conferences

35:56

anymore because, Hey, I'm

35:58

already here. I don't need to, I don't need to.

36:00

Right. And so for me, being impeccable

36:02

with my word as an interpreter has to be, I

36:05

walk the talk. So it has

36:07

helped me to constantly remember, I

36:09

am , I'm committed to that, this job that

36:12

I have to continue to do it also

36:14

has helped me a lot to not take it personally, because

36:17

especially teaching people, wow,

36:20

you get a lot of kudos and you get a lot of

36:22

criticism too, right? Mm-hmm <affirmative> and people,

36:25

your competitors or your non competitors

36:27

, uh , will attack you personally,

36:29

even though you didn't have

36:32

anything to do them personally with them personally.

36:35

Um, so not taking

36:37

things personally, obviously has

36:39

, uh , impacted me and

36:42

always doing my best. And I'm always climbing

36:44

that stairway

36:46

As far as doing your best. I

36:49

once wrote a quote, which was really

36:52

apropo. It says that

36:54

success is like wrestling a gorilla.

36:56

You don't quit when you're tired. You

36:59

quit. When the gorilla is tired,

37:01

That's a very good quote. Yeah.

37:04

I, I like saying your best

37:06

is always gonna change because,

37:10

you know, we equate our training with

37:12

weight lifting . And if you've

37:14

ever done any weightlifting, of course, you don't start

37:17

every time you're looking for a new best.

37:21

You might start with five pounds and

37:23

you work it until it becomes too easy. And

37:25

then you go to 10 and 15 and 20.

37:28

So your best is always gonna be defined

37:32

by where are you on that stairway? So

37:35

you're never gonna stop getting your doing

37:37

your best. That's why I like that. Being the

37:40

best ever as a goal, just

37:42

like Steven Hawkin once said was

37:45

as what is your goal in life? And he

37:47

told the interviewer, my

37:49

goal is the complete understanding

37:52

of the universe.

37:54

Wow. Which is

37:55

A fantastic goal . He might never get there.

37:57

And he said it, I might never get there, but I'm

37:59

always striving to get there. So

38:01

this doing your best is always climbing this stairway.

38:04

And it's gonna change because what

38:06

was impossible for you some

38:09

weeks or months ago before your training

38:11

is no longer impossible.

38:14

And in the imortal words of

38:17

Charles Schultz, the creator of peanuts

38:19

life is like a 10 speed bike. Most

38:22

of us have gears. We never use.

38:24

That's absolutely true. <laugh> , that's

38:26

absolutely or not even know how to use.

38:29

And we didn't even know they were there. Right. And

38:31

that's , and I think this is, this is in, in

38:34

the end, this is what we

38:36

wanna leave our viewers and our listeners with

38:38

mm-hmm <affirmative> with , um , the inspiration that

38:41

you do have the tools that you need. And if

38:43

you don't have them, you can

38:45

get them. There's a

38:46

New agreement,

38:47

Make a new agreement and you can get them, I

38:50

will say , thank you so very much for joining

38:52

us today. Um, I

38:55

wish you a happy new year.

38:57

Thank you. And, and to all the

38:59

, the listeners and anybody who has followed

39:01

us in the past, thank you very much for

39:03

your support. I know you mentioned it at

39:06

the beginning 2020 was not the best year,

39:08

but then again, it was. And

39:10

, uh , we hope everybody is

39:12

safe and healthy and we're

39:14

all shooting for a much better 20,

39:17

21. So happy new year to everybody.

39:19

Thank you everybody for joining us on this last

39:22

episode of subject to interpretation for

39:24

2020, we know it's been a difficult

39:26

year for all. And we look forward to

39:28

moving past difficult and

39:30

painful experiences and learning

39:33

from them in 2021. I'm

39:36

Maria Wallace . And on behalf of the team here at Del LAMODA Institute

39:38

for interpretation, I wish you

39:40

renewed and continued health and

39:42

peace for the coming year .