0:09

Rob: Hello, and welcome back to Subspace Radio.

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It is. I Rob Lloyd, and joining me as always is my dear friend Kevin Yank.

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How are you? Kevin: I'm very well, thank you.

0:19

Rob: Yes. Another episode of Star Trek is out there in the universe

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and we are here to review it.

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Episode two of season two of Star Trek: Strange New Worlds.

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Kevin: How's your Latin? Rob: I'm not gonna attempt the Latin, Kevin.

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If you want to attempt it, you can. Kevin: Ad Astra per Aspera,

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Rob: Well, that's easy for you to say. Kevin: To the stars through adversity, I think we were taught in this episode.

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Rob: So yes, Captain Pike is back not in, not on center stage.

0:49

He's definitely present, but more on the side brooding.

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And this is fully focused on our Number One, Una Chin-riley is finally put on

0:58

trial which has sparked our broader debate of courtroom dramas within

1:03

Star Trek, but more of that later.

1:05

Kevin, what's your first thoughts on episode two of Strange New Worlds?

1:09

Kevin: This was some m-mm good Star Trek.

1:13

That's my thought. Rob: Wasn't it so

1:15

Kevin: Oh, it's so good. This is the kind of Star Trek that I, for a while there, I had given up on ever

1:22

getting this kind of Star Trek again. That we could sit in this universe that has been created, trust that it is

1:30

interesting enough to be in, in this place and time and explore some ideas, have some

1:37

people debate concepts across tables at each other for a full one hour and have it

1:43

be engrossing and emotional and impactful.

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That is my favorite kind of Star Trek.

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And I know we need the phasers, we need the wormholes every now and then.

1:55

We need to keep things interesting with some lighthearted adventure and action.

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But this kind of, dare I say it, cerebral Star Trek is my kind of Star Trek.

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This is what I show up for. Rob: Strange New Worlds does it again.

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It is the most modern of modern Star Trek interpretations, but it's the most

2:15

classic of classic topics and issues.

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Star Trek has always been at the cunning edge of political progressive

2:23

exploration and has always been used as a way of exploring contemporary

2:28

issues in this futuristic way.

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Kevin: This is what Star Trek is for. What can we learn about ourselves as people?

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Rob: So it's all those type of issues about prejudice, about judgment, about,

2:39

indoctrination about, incarceration, about separation, all these type of issues,

2:45

apartheid, all this stuff brought up in a beautiful manner and written beautifully,

2:50

performed excellently and executed at the top, top tier level of its game.

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Kevin: Yes, absolutely. And that last point, I think bears repeating especially in light of last

3:02

week's episode that that I thought was let down a bit in the execution.

3:07

Besides the kind of episode this was, which I love, this is also just a

3:14

pinnacle of achievement in terms of the execution, the polish, everything from

3:19

the understated visual effects like an office chair floating in midair through

3:25

to the acting, which our guest star this week, Yetide Badaki, nailed it.

3:32

She had me in tears, a character I have never met before.

3:37

Just everything about this episode, not only was my type, but I dare

3:43

say this is the best courtroom drama we've ever seen in Star Trek.

3:47

Rob: She was particularly good in the way of her performance is there's a

3:51

tendency to have the science fiction style of acting or the genre style

3:57

of acting and whether it's a bit stilted, whether it's a bit theatrical,

4:01

whether it's more show than actual let the audience fill in the dots.

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It's more of a general topic. If you look at some of the greatest performances in science fiction,

4:11

that they're not rooted in any genre. But she brought this incredible, natural process to her performance.

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There was a great poise to her and there was a great energy to her that

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was both appropriate for the genre but also brought that fresh, naturalistic

4:30

element that people could look at that and go, it is sci-fi but it's,

4:35

that's not the main focus of this. She was an incredible and filled in the brief of what a guest star

4:39

should be and everyone gave her a standing ovation at the end.

4:43

I think we all joined in. Kevin: Yeah. So we will be looking at courtroom dramas in Star Trek this week,

4:48

but before we do is there anything that you wanna highlight here that

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stood out to you in this episode? Rob: I think every character had their part to play, even Pike's lover from

4:59

episode one who's coming in here, she had her own battle and journeys to go with and

5:04

what she had to endure through Federation.

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Great, little cute moment with Spock causing such a public stir

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Kevin: I, I loved that scene of the Vulcans, quote unquote arguing at

5:16

at a table in the cafe and M'Benga and Ortegas kind of analyzing it

5:22

from a distance and she saying, are you messing with me right now?

5:25

It was hilarious. In the moments after that scene, I went, I wonder if that scene

5:29

is gonna be about anything. Are we going to end up, is that argument going to have a consequence later?

5:35

And it didn't, it was really that scene was there for comic relief to

5:38

let the audience breathe out before the next dose of courtroom drama.

5:43

But for that, I loved it. And it, it gave M'Benga and Ortegas something to do other than sing

5:50

Una's praises on the witness stand, and yeah, great to see them.

5:53

Rob: That was a good moment representation of the comedy of the Vulcan personality

5:58

as opposed to last week with the cramming in of the, what's your

6:02

catchphrase when you do the ship. Yeah, beautiful moments, there.

6:06

A nice bit of tension between April and Pike and bit more delving

6:11

into Robert April being captain of the Enterprise before Pike and

6:15

Kevin: Already a hint of that future prequel, to the prequel, to the

6:18

prequel that we're going to get. Robert April's

6:21

Rob: which will be called Boldly Go. So yeah, everything was firing off really nicely.

6:25

I love the exploration of the Illyrian culture and the persecution.

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Such a horrifying, heartbreaking story about hiding, who you are

6:36

and those who can and those who Kevin: Yeah, it got real.

6:39

They moved past the abstract idea of, racism in the Federation, into what

6:45

would that actually mean in practice? In what way would those people suffer in that society?

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And we got to see it. We got to see the scene of baby Una sitting there with a broken

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leg, not being able to get it treated and it was hard to watch.

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Rob: Yeah, and Rebecca Romijn just is, yeah, is killing it.

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She's doing such a good job. And that's a credit to her cuz you know for so long she was the model turned

7:08

and was employed like as Mystique in the X-Men movies for her appearance.

7:13

But she has finally been able to go no, no, no.

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I've got some skills here. I've got some talent

7:19

Kevin: She keeps surprising me. Every time we see an episode featuring Una, I come away impressed at how,

7:27

how much I like the character. And I was like, wow.

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I knew I liked you, but I didn't know I liked you that much.

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And this episode brings that to a new high.

7:36

The long soliloquy she gave when her attorney put her on

7:40

the witness stand by surprise. One of my small objections to the logic of this episode.

7:45

Would your defense attorney really put you on the witness stand without briefing you?

7:50

That's not a real life thing. But Rob: It's very Perry Mason or Matlock style of it.

7:55

Yeah. Kevin: But considering where some other courtroom dramas in Star Trek

7:59

have gone over the years this was one of the more realistic ones.

8:03

But once she got up there on the witness stand and she started telling her story

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I had this moment of, Oh, here we go.

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When she started with the motto of the Federation, I was like, eh, this might

8:12

be a little overwritten, but she got me.

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The emotion was there. It pulled me in and I was crying along with her, by the end.

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Rob: Beautiful episode. Absolutely beautiful. It was an easy watch

8:23

Kevin: Did you notice that the courtroom was the reused Starfleet

8:27

headquarters bridge from Discovery?

8:29

Rob: I didn't. Kevin: Oh, you didn't because you haven't seen the latest

8:32

season of Star Trek Discovery. Yeah.

8:35

So, Yeah, stay tuned for your rewatch that room is going to be very familiar

8:40

that room, that is ring shaped with a big open space in the middle that is

8:46

the bridge of Starfleet headquarters.

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And that open space is filled by a galactic map in Discovery.

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Here, it wasn't really filled by anything. They just shot around it and across it, and it made it a very strangely

8:59

claustrophobic, for me anyway, courtroom.

9:03

Although it was a large space, everyone was like pressed up

9:06

against the wall at all times.

9:08

And uh, the lawyer walking around the side to put the book on the desk,

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it was like, felt very intrusive that she's going on a long walk.

9:18

You can't just pretend you accidentally ended up here.

9:21

This is where you intended to get if you're walking all

9:23

the way around that ring. So it was very, very strange.

9:27

I couldn't decide if I liked it or disliked it.

9:29

I thought because it is so conspicuously the same room we have seen recently

9:34

in discovery, I felt it was a bit of a shame because it took me out of it,

9:38

it broke the reality that this room that exists in the 32nd century also

9:43

exists here in the uh, 23rd somehow.

9:46

But that was a minor thing. I think what I liked the most is the legal machinations of this episode.

9:55

That trick they polled of, yeah, she may have technically broke this law,

10:00

but there is also another law that applies equally and it is our asylum law.

10:07

And you get to choose which one you apply here.

10:10

I'm no legal expert, but as a Joe Schmo viewing public of Star Trek,

10:15

it at least was, it felt to me like a convincing reason for a court case

10:21

to not go in the expected direction.

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It felt like a plot twist that I could buy.

10:26

Rob: They called it out, which I really appreciated.

10:29

At the end, they just said, Una said it herself, that we,

10:33

this was just a technicality. And the real work carries on, that we now need to build up this recognition for

10:41

the Illyrian people, and it's a start.

10:43

Kevin: That they found that was really impressive to me.

10:46

Because I think I said at the end of last season, my worry is that we know Julian

10:51

Bashir is discriminated against in Deep Space Nine a hundred years from now.

10:55

So what satisfying end is this arc of Una's is going to lead us to?

11:02

I couldn't see the space between, she gets drummed out of Starfleet because

11:07

the Federation is still racist at this point, and we break the canon.

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And they threaded that needle. In fact, it was so deft I can only assume they worked out how they

11:16

were gonna thread it when they wrote the ending to the previous season.

11:21

Hiding the fact of the asylum law applying in plain sight

11:26

was a beautiful magic trick. And really brought the episode home for me.

11:30

Rob: Just the cold, hard reality of the fact that the laws were created

11:34

for this good to stop the horrors of the Eugenic Wars coming back, which

11:39

is fascinating to read up on from what is touched on from, um, Space

11:43

Seed, and all that type of stuff. But to see that lofty heights of going, we have set up these laws to

11:48

protect us from a war happening again, but how that filters down to everyday

11:54

people, that it becomes, people become labeled and, slurs are, blazoned

12:00

across their doors and they have to go into hiding to get medical attention.

12:05

Just from the lofty heights of not wanting to start another galactic war down to pure

12:11

prejudice and racism showing its head. It's wonderfully fascinating blend of gray within the bright colors of

12:18

this utopian future, which it isn't tarnished by it because it's what is

12:23

being fought at to keep that vision of a bright future, which is masterful.

12:29

That's what Star Trek is does so well stuff like that, what really

12:33

brings out that the beautiful grays of this bright new future.

12:37

Kevin: The thing that I most narrowed my eyes at suspiciously in the legalese

12:42

they were throwing around was, in the asylum law, they said that people

12:46

may seek safety within Starfleet.

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And that seemed like a strange thing to have on the law books.

12:52

Cuz if you, if you transpose that to today, that's like the US Navy

12:56

having a law on the books that says that people in a war zone may seek

13:01

safety within the US Navy, which seems like a weird place to seek safety.

13:05

Like the the separation between the military organization and the

13:10

state is very interesting there. My way I'm explain that in my head is that maybe this is like an old law that

13:16

was on the books before the Federation, when it was just Starfleet out there

13:19

roaming the stars, in which case it would make sense to have a policy around

13:23

asylum that was specific to Starfleet.

13:26

And the idea that Una's lawyer would have found this really old law in the

13:31

books is especially tickling to me, if that's uh, if that's what we accept.

13:36

Rob: Yeah, it's glowing praise all round for an excellently written,

13:40

beautiful executed piece of television.

13:42

Whether it be sci-fi or not, it's just wonderful.

13:45

And that led us down the the much easier path of previous Star Trek episodes.

13:52

I type in Star Trek courtroom episodes.

13:54

I got so many lists. Ti Yeah.

13:58

Typing in Captain Away last week, yeah.

14:01

Not so much this one. There was a plethora

14:03

Kevin: Well, we, we have to test ourselves now and then, but when they

14:06

give us a layup like this, we also need to we need to take the opportunity.

14:10

We're not gonna have a better opportunity to talk about Starfleet courtroom

14:14

procedures than we have here today. Rob: We've touched on episodes with a courtroom feel or have been

14:21

mentioned in previous episodes, like we have mentioned The Menagerie.

14:25

We've mentioned Measure of a Man. We've mentioned a couple of others in passing, but we have not dedicated

14:30

an entire episode to the courtroom.

14:33

Kevin: Let's not hold back. I'm gonna, I'm gonna repeat at least one of the ones that you

14:37

mentioned in my uh, choices.

14:39

But look, we said last week, new rule: Enterprise goes first, cuz

14:43

it's ear earliest in the timeline. So do either of us have an Enterprise episode?

14:48

Rob: I specifically picked an Enterprise because I went, you know what?

14:51

I'm doing a Star trek podcast. We are into our second season of Strange New Worlds, and I've only, I

14:58

started watching Enterprise and then gave up, and so I went, you know what?

15:03

No, let's go in and do this, Rob. Let's take this seriously.

15:06

And it's appeared in every single one of the lists that I've found online,

15:12

and it's quite high up in the list. So I've gone with Judgment season two, episode 19.

15:20

Kevin: Ooh. Yeah, good one.

15:22

This one always comes to mind because around the time this aired, Star Trek was

15:27

just getting serious about the Internet.

15:29

Like they had a website that they updated every week for the first time, and uh,

15:34

they were releasing audio commentaries along with significant episodes.

15:40

And there was an audio commentary by, I believe, the writers of this

15:43

episode released at the same time as the episode so that you could

15:46

watch the episode and then you could re-watch it with the audio commentary.

15:49

And that audio commentary was lost when the Star Trek website changed hands and

15:55

was torn down and rebuilt from scratch. But I believe Trek Core has an archival copy of it.

16:01

So if anyone is following our advice and watching Judgment this week, you can

16:04

also pick up that audio commentary too.

16:07

I'll link to it in the show notes. Rob: Yeah, definitely.

16:10

So to recite the IMDB outline of this story, After Enterprise lends aid to

16:16

a group of accused rebels, Captain Archer faces a tribunal and charges of

16:20

conspiracy against the Klingon Empire.

16:23

Kevin: Yes, this is what I like to think of as a flavor of Star Trek VI.

16:28

Rob: Oh, yes. Yeah, it definitely has the easter egg of using the exact same set and some of

16:34

the props from uh, Undiscovered Country.

16:37

Now, for me, there are some incredible stuff in here.

16:40

There's some amazing stuff in here, but for me also, it's a

16:43

case of understanding why I never really connected with Enterprise.

16:48

All the elements are there, but it just

16:51

Kevin: It's got your general Martok Rob, how could you not like.

16:55

Rob: Oh, who is outstanding.

16:58

Outstanding. Kevin: JG Hertzler plays.

17:01

Kolos Rob: Yes, who is outstanding.

17:05

Even though in many of the shots you can clearly see the

17:07

Klingon bumps rising on the side.

17:10

The makeup hasn't, the makeup hasn't been stuck down properly and they

17:13

went, we don't have enough time. Go with it. He is frigging amazing in this episode, incredible stuff, and has the best

17:20

monologue that I've seen talking about a race within Star Trek since David

17:26

Warner's speech as the Cardassian interrogator Like just amazing.

17:32

But it just, it's an interesting way of starting within the trial and

17:36

then the flashbacks to what happened. And it's an old trait, used many times of the different point of view.

17:42

So the Klingon gives his point of view of what happened, which is very clearly

17:48

Kevin: That's simplified if you will. for legal expediency.

17:52

Rob: It's very much a Archer focused episode, so we see the doctor a little

17:55

bit in a really nice tense, there's almost espionagal, that's a real

18:00

word, type of scene at the start. And you've got to Paul and the others up on Enterprise,

18:05

sorting it out in the background. But it's really a two-hander really with Scott Bakula and our

18:10

dear old Martok with a different

18:13

Kevin: Yep. Xenopolycythemia The, uh, disease that Phlox mentions when he's

18:18

visiting Archer in his cell, I believe is the fatal disease that Dr.

18:23

McCoy had in for the world is hollow, and I have touched the sky way back in

18:27

the original series, so a deep cut there.

18:30

Rob: Nice little reference there. So there's a lot of great stuff there.

18:34

And of course they're sent to Rura Penthe at the end, but it's kind of

18:38

Kevin: It's a low budget Rura Penthe isn't it? Rob: Very low budget.

18:42

I felt like I was kicked in the knees slash balls watching it.

18:47

And despite how difficult it was for them to get Kirk and Spock off

18:52

Kevin: Oh yeah. Rob: Rura Penthe to just

18:55

Kevin: We bribed a, a transport captain.

18:58

Rob: Yeah, he just walks in, he goes, all right, let's go, shall we?

19:01

Kevin: Well, This is why they tightened up security at Rura Penthe.

19:05

Rob: It's all because of that. Thank you. So yeah, it was a bit of a nothing end.

19:10

You just go, ah, ju… oh, okay.

19:12

But for me, the highlight is not so much the trial, which is the focus,

19:17

and we always know that it was gonna be a dodgy trial anyway, but they just,

19:21

there wasn't any confrontation of it.

19:25

It was more just, this is the process you gotta go through it.

19:27

Let's just get you to the prison and get

19:29

Kevin: Yeah, I think it needed one more hook for me.

19:32

When the thing that this episode rests on, is Archer going to be able to tell

19:38

his version of events because the Klingon legal system is stacked against him, and

19:45

even his own advocate is not interested in his version of events because they

19:50

are so used to the presumption of guilt.

19:54

And in the end, the way Archer convinces his advocate to listen to

20:00

him is to me, somewhat unsatisfying.

20:04

Archer says something like why don't you care about justice?

20:08

And his advocate goes, Don't be so quick to judge me.

20:13

I used to care about justice. And Archer says, really?

20:16

And that's basically it. That's the entire convincing that he has to do.

20:19

At that point, the advocate basically talks himself into it and goes,

20:23

oh yeah, I remember when these courts were willing to listen.

20:26

And they weren't just a tool for the military to to advance their agenda.

20:31

And it the fact that Archer does very little in order to secure his own

20:37

freedom here, it's, this is something that happens now and then in Star Trek

20:42

stories, I find, is that the, the story kind of advances on its own and there

20:50

is no sense of it having been earned. Rob: Scott Bakula is an incredible actor.

20:54

His best work is in Quantum Leap, where he does everything.

20:58

He does dramatic work. He does comedy work. He sings.

21:00

He dances. He does fight choreography.

21:03

He does car chases. He impersonates women.

21:07

He plays a monkey In one episode.

21:09

He plays a vampire in one episode. He does,

21:12

Kevin: He is definitely up for anything. Rob: But it's amazing in watching this as the lead character in a Star

21:19

Trek show, he is such a passenger.

21:22

He does nothing to take hold of the story.

21:25

So much so that he, everything happens to him.

21:29

Even his escape. He has not, he just like at the end of it, was it is it Dominic Keating, whatever the

21:36

Kevin: Malcolm Reed. Rob: Yeah, comes in, just goes, all right, we're going now.

21:40

And so we've done all this for you. And he's, he just swans through this 45 minute episode.

21:45

He's the captain and he's just, he's like lethargic.

21:49

Is he on medication? It's really quite disheartening.

21:52

Cause I know Bacula can step up. Bacula could so have a, a speech to rival Patrick Stewart.

21:59

He could do some, really hardcore muscle work like like a Avery Brooks.

22:04

He could do like some classy, sassy stuff like Kate Mulgrew, for heaven's sake.

22:09

But he is just so passive here.

22:12

That the highlight of the performance is Kolos's speech,

22:15

and I've got it quoted here. It's wonderful. "My father was a teacher, my mother, a biologist at the university.

22:22

They encouraged me to take up law. Now all young people want to do is take up weapons as soon as they can hold them.

22:28

They're told there's honor in victory, any victory.

22:32

What honor is there in a victory over a weaker opponent?

22:35

Had Duras destroyed that ship, he would've been lauded as a hero of the

22:39

Empire for murdering helpless refugees.

22:43

We were a great society not so long ago, when honor was earned

22:47

through integrity and acts of true courage, not senseless bloodshed."

22:52

And that's coming from a Kevin: Yeah, it's pretty Good.

22:55

that's probably some of the deepest implied change to Klingon society

22:59

that we get in all of Star Trek, like Klingons, they don't really have an arc.

23:04

And we've talked about the Cardassians now and then about how we get these

23:08

glimpses of how they used to be and how they are today is not how they used to be.

23:14

This is not their finest hour. Whereas Klingons, we are told again and again, this is their finest hour.

23:20

The this is their greatest glory. And this hint that there maybe was a different version of Klingon culture

23:26

before this is not something we often get.

23:29

I think Star Trek might be a little afraid to break what they have in Klingons.

23:35

And yeah, they, we get a hint at something more here, that's very tantalizing.

23:41

Rob: It's so tantalizing, especially cause we move ahead to say, looking at Discovery

23:46

season one, where they knuckle down on the horror and the monstrous type of nature

23:53

of the Klingons, and it just doesn't work.

23:56

You're there going, look at this incredible moment, the only

23:59

incredible moment in a quite bland episode of Star Trek that

24:03

could have achieved so much more. It goes to show that you could see the show's tired.

24:08

This is filmed after, a good 10 years after when Next Gen was at its height

24:14

or when Deep Space Nine was close to beginning, but it looked cheaper.

24:18

It looked like it was done earlier.

24:21

It looked like it was filmed in the mid eighties.

24:24

Kevin: Star Trek VI is what hurts this episode the most, in my mind, because here

24:29

we have a great example of less is more.

24:31

There is much less of that Klingon courtroom in Star Trek VI, but

24:35

it is so much more powerful in part because it's darker.

24:39

We see less of it. It is more cinematic, more is left to the imagination.

24:44

It is a scarier place in Star Trek VI than it is here where it is de-fanged because

24:50

we see behind the scenes we see into every corner, we are given a long time to look

24:56

around in that crowd and realize they're not actually that scary, they're just

25:00

Klingon rabble who will shout at anything.

25:03

And the judge is less scary because he talks more.

25:07

He engages with with the idea of justice in a way that the,

25:12

Rob: And he's not hidden in the background with almost his white eyes going, Silence.

25:17

Yeah. Kevin: So if Star Trek VI had never been done, I feel like I would enjoy this

25:23

episode a lot more because we would be seeing something we'd not seen before and

25:26

we wouldn't have that stronger example of the same thing to hold it up against.

25:30

Rob: Yeah, so for me, it's it just fell short of what it could have done and it

25:35

had its lead very passive, but a standout performance from from Martok as a Kolos,

25:42

and an incredible speech of what could, what we could have, Kevin, with the

25:48

Klingons, if the, if they just listen to their own history and go, we can have

25:53

the Klingons as a deep, rich culture as opposed to just a one note archetype.

26:00

Kevin: From Enterprise and I'm glad it wasn't me complaining about

26:03

Enterprise for once this week. Thank you for taking us there, Rob.

26:07

Rob: I should play my part in this Star Trek podcast and actually watch all of it.

26:11

And that means so that I am aware that does mean I have to admit to, I will

26:15

have to watch Discovery Season four. Kevin: A nice, standalone episode of Enterprise as well.

26:20

I think it is a good way to get a taste of what Enterprise was.

26:23

This is an early episode of Rob: Well, That was, but that's season two.

26:26

That's season two episode 19.

26:28

So they should be, the the other episode I'm gonna talk about is from

26:32

a Star Trek series early on, so like within the first seven episodes.

26:37

But this is like where it should be quite established.

26:41

And I'm there going, no, this, it feels like an early season one type episode.

26:45

Kevin: Well, I'm going to take us to the original series and uh, the

26:50

episode that this week's episode of Strange New World owes so much to,

26:54

and that is Court Martial, season one, episode 14 of the original series.

27:00

This is where Captain Kirk is put on trial for the murder of one of his crew members.

27:06

The episode opens with the ship docking for repairs after an ion

27:12

storm and the ship is damaged.

27:14

And the entire proceedings of this court is because during that storm,

27:21

the Enterprise lost a crew member.

27:23

There was a crew member uh, Ben Finney, who was in the weather pod at the front

27:29

of the ship, and when the ship went to Red Alert, when the ion storm got bad

27:32

enough, they had to eject that pod.

27:35

And Kirk says he gave Ben Finney plenty of time to get outta that pod and ejected

27:41

it after he sounded the red alert. But the computer records say that the ship was not yet at red alert

27:47

when when Kirk pressed the button.

27:50

And this episode it is not the first original series courtroom drama, that

27:56

comes back to The Menagerie that we have talked about before, the two-parter

28:01

where the Enterprise crew sits in the courtroom and watches an episode of Star

28:06

Trek on tv. Yeah, there was a bit of that this week as well of uh, the Enterprise crew watching

28:12

the court proceedings on their monitors.

28:14

But yeah where The Menagerie kind of sets out, you know, it's got the ringing

28:19

the bell and it's got the courtroom set.

28:21

This is the one where most of the story is in the courtroom, rather

28:27

than the courtroom being a framing device for watching an adventure.

28:32

What we get from this episode is the dress uniforms with the interesting like jewelry

28:39

emblems that are exactly like the ones we see in Strange New Worlds, this week.

28:43

We get the chair with the lit the lit circle that you put your

28:47

palm on to identify yourself and to uh, read out your record.

28:51

The little tapes, which are ubiquitous within the original series, but they

28:56

are prominently used in Court Martial to, like everyone who testifies,

29:00

puts their tape in the computer and it reads out their their record.

29:05

And then when they finish their testimony, they take their tape with them as a record

29:08

of everything that they said, and all of that is here in Strange New Worlds.

29:12

So it was obvious to me that they went back to Court Martial

29:15

and plumbed its depths deeply.

29:17

So if nothing else, if you agree with us that this was a great episode of

29:21

Star Trek, it's worth going back to Court Martial to see where a lot of

29:25

the template is created so long ago.

29:27

Rob: I was watching episode two and Batel was there in the prosecution and she had

29:32

the big brooch of multicolored things.

29:35

I'm going, that's gotta be from the Kevin: Oh, it is totally from the original series.

29:38

They look remarkably similar.

29:40

The thing that happens in the original series though is like the costume

29:43

department isn't quite as well paid, and so from scene to scene, some of the

29:48

characters' parts of their sculptures on their chest disappear and reappear

29:53

as the continuity is not quite there.

29:56

It, is so charming. Yeah. Who knows what they mean.

29:58

But it seems like the one thing you can infer is the higher you rank, the more

30:03

pottery you have glued to your chest.

30:05

Rob: More ceramics that you have attached.

30:08

So the main thing put on trial is the chain of command and the how

30:11

Kevin: Ultimately the fascination of this episode is, we get to see what law

30:17

looks like in the Star Trek universe.

30:19

We meet the prosecutor, Areel Shaw, who is an ex lover of Kirk's.

30:25

Once he's been accused, but before the court martial is convened, Kirk

30:29

walks around the space station and a lot of his, like old classroom

30:33

buddies are like giving him the side eye and like presuming his guilt.

30:37

So that is something we learn about Kirk is that people are pretty

30:40

quick to assume his guilt in a matter of negligence as a captain.

30:45

So there's six people there and they're all like mrr, yeah, I think he did it.

30:49

But uh, over in the corner of the bar is this beautifully dressed woman, and Kirk

30:54

is so happy to see her because it's a friendly fa face in this hostile crowd.

30:59

And it's a woman that he had a relationship with previously.

31:03

They're still very lovey-dovey. And she's, he says, actually it's lucky I meet you because I could

31:09

really use a lawyer right now. And she goes, sorry, I'm busy.

31:13

And it is revealed at the end of the scene that she has actually

31:16

been tapped as the prosecutor. So she is going to have to prosecute her ex lover, a pattern that is repeated

31:23

in a Next Generation episode that we're gonna be talking about in a little bit.

31:26

But yes, she is the prosecutor, the defense attorney that Kirk ends up

31:32

getting at her suggestion is Samuel T.

31:34

Cogley, attorney at law.

31:36

And he moves into Kirk's quarters and fills the place with books.

31:41

There's like books stacked ten high on his sofa, on all of his desks in every

31:47

surface, all these brown legal tomes.

31:51

And that is the main, and as far as I can tell, only character trait

31:55

we are given for Samuel t Cogley is that he likes the law in print.

31:59

Nice to see another print book here this week in uh, Strange,

32:03

New Worlds in the ultimate, Rob: Quite a few little, quite a few appearances of old

32:08

Kevin: Yeah. But yeah, so watching those two guest stars fight it out through the objections

32:15

and arguments of a courtroom is the main fascination of this episode.

32:20

The actual like legal case is much less strong and interesting than

32:24

we get elsewhere in Star Trek. It is ultimately a case of Kirk's word against the computer records,

32:30

and the presumption is the computer is infallible, it can't be wrong.

32:34

It's Kirk's word against an infallible record.

32:36

So Kirk's obviously guilty. The big twist I use with big air quotes here is when Spock discovers that he can

32:45

beat the Enterprise computer at chess, which we are led to believe, is evidence

32:52

that the computer has been tampered with.

32:55

So because someone tampered with the records of whether Kirk pressed

32:59

the button before the red alert or not, that tampering somehow made

33:03

the computer less good at chess. And that is how Spock discovers the wrongdoing.

33:08

Rob: Makes perfect sense to me. Kevin: When this is revealed, this earth-shattering evidence that Spock

33:12

can beat the computer at chess. Samuel T. Cogley attorney at law demands that the court adjourn to the Enterprise

33:19

so that Kirk can face his accuser.

33:22

One of the guarantees of Federation law is that you will be allowed to face your

33:27

accuser, and in this case, the accuser is the Enterprise computer itself.

33:31

And so it's, uh, it's, pretty drawn out at that point that, oh, okay.

33:38

The big twist in this courtroom drama is that we're gonna get to move the

33:41

court to the Enterprise, and then they have a session in the briefing

33:46

room where Spock beats the computer at chess for the entertainment

33:50

of the the convened officials.

33:52

And then they moved to the bridge where it is a bit more interesting.

33:56

They evacuate the ship so that no one is left aboard.

34:00

And then the people in the court, McCoy walks around with a microphone

34:04

and puts it to each of their chests and does a little thing that cancels

34:07

out the sound of their heartbeat. And then they have the computer play all audible sounds left on the ship

34:14

and there is one heartbeat left.

34:16

And that is the revelation that Ben Finney did not die in the ion storm.

34:20

He actually faked his own death by modifying the computer records

34:23

and Kirk goes and has a fist fight with him in engineering.

34:30

Rob: How all good K and dramas should finish.

34:32

That's what was missing in episode two of Strange New World Season two.

34:37

Shame. So yeah. Kevin: It sounds hinky, and it is, but I think it's still worth watching.

34:43

Rob: Definitely it. See, like exploring that type of procedure of the Federation in such

34:50

early stages of the show's development.

34:52

What within, in its first year, first couple of

34:54

Kevin: It is interesting to realize that Star Trek in its first year

34:58

had two courtroom drama episodes, and one of them was a two-parter.

35:02

So three of the first 24 episodes of Star Trek were courtroom dramas.

35:07

They knew the formula worked early. Rob: But as we explored, like with The Menagerie, there's not much

35:13

courtroom drama going on there. Yeah.

35:16

It's out of like a hundred minute two-parter, it's 80% ooh, look at

35:21

the clips from the previous thing we Kevin: Court Martial has a lot of that fun that we get this episode as well, where

35:26

we get members of the crew brought up as witnesses and asked questions like, Areel

35:31

Shaw asks McCoy for example he says Dr.

35:35

McCoy, you're an expert in space psychology, aren't you?

35:39

And he goes I know something about it.

35:42

And just these very in character answers from our favorite

35:46

characters is really fun. Rob: I've always wanted to study space psychology

35:50

Kevin: Uh, you got a second one? Rob: I do.

35:53

I do. And I've gotta go back to, to, to my home base.

35:57

So we're looking at as I've alluded to, we're going to season one of

36:02

Deep Space Nine, episode eight. So early on in the process, we're looking at Dax.

36:08

This really is the establishment of, okay, let's, we've created these characters,

36:12

let's find out more about them.

36:14

And even though the trill had appeared in Next Gen…?

36:20

Kevin: Yeah. There was one episode called The Host, I think, that kind of established

36:23

the mechanics of how Trill work. Rob: Yes.

36:26

But this is the one that really explores the essence of what it is.

36:31

And I was fascinated by the Trill as a character, because it's very much the

36:35

Star Trek terminology and interpretation of what they do in Doctor Who.

36:41

So in Doctor Who, when they change the actor, they do a

36:45

process called regeneration that the only Time Lords can do.

36:49

So I was fascinated by, within this Star Trek thing, they could never do something

36:53

as ridiculous as just regeneration, but if they have a symbiont that is

36:57

inside the Trill, it's part of this process and culture, and then they

37:01

move that creature inside another host.

37:05

And the memories are left within that symbiont, but then there's the

37:09

new personality that comes through. It's all that lovely, complicated Star Trek stuff.

37:13

But this is the process of let's actually look at the fundamental creation of this

37:17

species: what personality means, what identity means within this culture, and

37:24

whether someone, if a crime was committed in a previous host, would that person,

37:31

who now is the new host, big culpable.

37:34

And it was always a fascinating concept of bringing on a Trill who in

37:38

their past life was dear friends, a mentor to our lead character, Sisko.

37:44

And it was always the great gag of always referring to Jadzia as

37:48

Old Man cuz that's what he used to call Curzon, the previous host.

37:52

And so there's a lot of stuff done here.

37:54

We find out a lot about Jadzia and how she became the host.

37:58

We find out a lot about Curzon, who he was as a person, his relationship with Sisko.

38:04

A lot of that is established here.

38:06

Now, Dax is a an episode that stands out for many reasons, but the main

38:11

reason is someone we've mentioned before on this show, especially when

38:14

we looked at the animated series of the sixties, this is actually

38:17

co-written by the great DC Fontana.

38:21

Kevin: Very good. Rob: Yes, who was brought on, and it said in production notes that she

38:25

actually found it quite difficult to focus on an episode that's focused

38:29

on character because as she said, this is only the eighth episode.

38:32

You haven't really established the individual characters here.

38:35

You've got archetypes. So she was brought on with a co-writer, Peter Allen Fields, who came up with the

38:41

idea, and the two of them had written together on The Six Million Dollar Man.

38:44

And she of course, had extensive history with the original series

38:47

and the animated series, but it's actually a really good episode.

38:51

I remember watching this when I was, when it first came

38:54

out, and it sticks in my head. There's some beautiful moments in there, like the on the offside, like

39:00

the tension between Quark and Odo is still very much in its early stages,

39:04

so it's very tense and antagonistic.

39:07

The, there's a beautiful moment when representatives from this culture

39:12

who've come to put Jadzia on trial, sneak onto the base and have all

39:18

the codes and can easily get out.

39:20

But then brought back in with some, nice maneuvering from Sisko, showing how

39:24

smart he is to get a tractor beam in.

39:26

And in an interrogation interview scene with Sisko and Kira, they

39:31

good cop, bad cop each other. They do this wonderful double play with the representative from that culture to

39:36

find out that he actually got the codes and everything from the Cardassians.

39:40

Kevin: a staple of TV legal dramas that the investigation continues

39:44

while the court case is proceeding.

39:47

That's something that I'm pretty sure never happens in real life, that um,

39:50

there's a ticking clock because the court case is happening at the same time.

39:54

Rob: When I was growing up, there was Perry Mason and his investigator

39:58

doing work was William Katt from The Greatest American Hero.

40:01

And in this case, it's Odo going to the planet where this happened

40:05

and finding out what he can.

40:07

So like the trial is there more as a background, cuz as, as they always say,

40:11

it's not a trial, it's not a trial, it's just a hearing, and so it's just

40:16

a way for us to find out more about it.

40:18

And we hear it from a scientific point of view. We hear it from a moral point of view, an emotional point of view,

40:24

a philosophical point of view.

40:26

So we in this episode, we find out more about the Trill culture

40:31

and the process of it than in any other episode we have before.

40:36

There's one episode in Discovery season three, where we have the

40:42

Trill crew mate coming on, and that's a really good episode.

40:46

That's one of the ones that I particularly loved.

40:48

I but yeah, this one, it focuses on that and the characters are still quite raw.

40:52

Bashir is at his hound dog, uh, love rat best but steps up and speaks

40:59

beautifully from a medical point of Kevin: This is a really good parallel to this week's episode of Strange New Worlds.

41:05

I feel like it lands at about the same place in the series as this one does.

41:10

We're at episode 12 because season one had 10 episodes in it.

41:13

This is episode eight. Not that far apart.

41:16

It's taking a character that we presume is gonna stick around for

41:19

the rest of the series, but we know we have no guarantee of that.

41:22

So it is at least plausible that that we are about to see them locked up

41:27

for the rest of their lives or drummed outta Starfleet as the case may be.

41:30

So there is some believable jeopardy here, and it is the court case is an

41:38

opportunity to delve deeply into not just the character that's on trial, but

41:42

a bunch of other characters and learn a bunch about them under that pressure.

41:47

Rob: It's actually quite a good episode. It's a good little mystery that they have to solve.

41:51

But one of the most heartbreaking things for me is at the time of this

41:54

recording, watching the episode, I'm there going I started watching this

41:59

when I was a teenager, obviously, and in the episode they talk about this young

42:04

woman, Jadzia Dax, who is 28, and I'm there going, yep, am now 45 years old.

42:13

Kevin: It's almost two young women old.

42:18

Rob: Yeah. Thank you very much for pointing that out, Kevin. Thank you.

42:21

Time is a bitch, sometimes. But it's a great episode.

42:24

There's a wonderful supporting cast. You've got Anne Haney as the the judge coming in.

42:30

She's done great work in Liar, and Mrs.

42:33

Doubtfire, wonderful character actress coming in as the

42:35

Bajoran judge to oversee things.

42:38

You've got the wonderful Gregory Itzin.

42:40

He's done stuff like 24 and he's played Richard Nixon and he's done

42:44

like lots of, just a TV staple.

42:47

And just wonderful character actors filling out this hour

42:51

of wonderful television. And the big reveal at the end, obviously is that Curzon could not have

42:57

possibly been there because he was in the bed of the man who died's wife.

43:03

Oh, good lord. Kevin: Yes.

43:06

Uh, to, to use one of your turns of phrase, Rob, this is uh,

43:10

innocence proven by being a dawwg.

43:15

Rob: I'm so glad that has caught on.

43:17

Yes. Yeah. It's a still is very much in that early nineties perception

43:22

of gender and identity. So it's so binary.

43:25

It is so binary. There are so many things about, Kon the male and the older,

43:31

hardened, drinker and womanizer.

43:34

And Jadzia is the young woman and noble, and yeah, there is a line

43:39

where Sisko goes, if you weren't a woman, I would… you're there oh,

43:44

Kevin: They were trying. They were trying. Rob: They were, yeah, they're still working within the confines

43:50

of the time that they were at. They were pushing ahead, but still staying within their little bubble.

43:55

But yeah, and that's all revealed at the end in the last scene that, cuz

44:00

it was all about committing treason and that Curzon was accused of

44:05

sending this message to the rebels. But actually it was the guy who died who sent it to the rebels.

44:11

And when the rebels, the rebels didn't like him and they killed him off.

44:14

But this guy clearly has become a legend and a hero and his death

44:19

inspired victory and he's seen as a hero where at home he was, it's alluded

44:24

to, he was not a nice person at all.

44:28

And, but the legend is more important than that has to stay on.

44:32

And it's quite sad at the end going back cuz there's a moment she plays

44:36

it quite rattled, Terry Farrell, she's a wonderful performer.

44:39

And she's like battling with all the personas and the memories

44:43

within her and having this talk with this former lover of Curzon's.

44:48

And I think it's Enina touches Jadzia on the face and goes,

44:52

just do one thing for me, live.

44:54

Live a long and happy life. And I'm going, she doesn't get that.

44:58

She dies. Damn you, Gul Dukat!

45:04

But yeah, it's a it's a good episode in the early days of a show finding its

45:10

feet and it's it does a creative way of rather complicated alien species giving

45:16

it depth and variety to get, an early nineties mainstream audience watching,

45:21

going, what the hell's going on here? We just want the bumps on the head.

45:25

Kevin: All right. I'm gonna take us back to The Next Generation.

45:28

And this is a, this is an easy one.

45:30

Like this is a, nothing but the net sort of pick because it is often on lists

45:36

of best ever episodes of Star Trek: The Next Generation, and it is The Measure

45:42

Of A Man, season two, episode nine.

45:45

We can't not talk about The Measure Of A Man under the heading of courtroom dramas.

45:50

It was before this week's episode of Strange New Worlds, it was

45:53

my favorite courtroom drama.

45:55

I think it's the strongest story. I think some people may consider it still stronger than what we got this

46:01

week from Strange New Worlds, but I've watched the two in close succession

46:04

and I think this one does some great storytelling but Strange New Worlds is

46:09

a stronger courtroom drama for sure.

46:13

This episode is all about the question of is Data a toaster, to put it in the

46:18

words of our guest star Captain Phillipa Louvois, who is the previous kind of

46:26

implied love interest of Captain Picard.

46:29

And when Picard goes looking for someone to help him with his legal

46:33

problems, Phillipa Louvois is waiting for him there on this star base.

46:38

The dynamic is slightly different. Apparently Phillipa Louvois in her previous life prosecuted Picard

46:45

for a case involving the Stargazer, and there are some hard feelings,

46:51

but also you can tell there is a lot of attraction between them.

46:55

She says it's I'm not gonna get this line exactly right, but she says something

46:59

along the lines of it is reassuring to my worldview that you, Captain Picard are

47:05

still a pompous ass – and a damn sexy man.

47:09

Rob: She Kevin: Yeah. Yeah. She says sexy man.

47:12

Yeah. Yes. Unless I'm misremembering, but it is something along those lines.

47:17

But yeah, so this is an episode that's actually tied to some of the lore

47:21

that we got in early Star Trek: Picard seasons, season one, particularly, where

47:26

Bruce Maddox, who is the mad scientist at Starfleet that wants to, in this

47:32

episode, disassemble Data for parts in order to understand how he works

47:36

so he can make a thousand more Datas, but he's not a hundred percent sure

47:41

he's going to be able to figure it out.

47:43

He'll cross that bridge when he comes to it. But first he needs to take Data under his command and pull him to pieces.

47:50

And so Data, at first, he objects.

47:53

He says, I don't think you've done the groundwork necessary

47:55

for an experiment of this nature. But the initial ruling is that Data cannot refuse, that he is property.

48:02

He is an object, and he is owned by Starfleet.

48:05

And he can not decline this experiment any more than the computer of the

48:10

Enterprise could decline a refit.

48:13

And this is what prompts the court case.

48:16

The beautiful twist in this episode that is a stroke of genius from Melinda

48:21

Snodgrass, who wrote this episode.

48:23

This is her first episode of Star Trek, she's written.

48:26

She worked for several years as a lawyer, which is why she was familiar enough

48:31

with court proceedings to, to pitch a a courtroom drama for her first episode.

48:36

But the thing she does here is that the JAG office on this star

48:40

base is just getting established. And Louvois here, Captain Louvois has no staff.

48:46

There are no lawyers available. And she says under these circumstances, Starfleet procedure is clear.

48:52

I get to draft the most senior ranking officers to be, to

48:55

act as counsel in this case. And Picard you're most senior, so you'll be defense and Riker,

49:01

you need to be the prosecutor. And Riker says, I can't argue for Data's ineligibility as a sentient

49:09

being because I don't believe it. But she says then I'll rule summarily against him.

49:13

So this is among other things a great Riker episode as Riker needs to swallow

49:20

his friendship and his belief in Data and do his best to mount a case for

49:25

the fact that Data is nothing more than a a walking talking machine.

49:31

There's a beautiful scene where Riker is in the library section researching Data's

49:36

schematics, and finds his deactivation switch on his back, and Riker sees it and

49:42

you, it's just a closeup on Riker where you see him like light up in delight.

49:47

He can't believe his luck. And then he realizes what this will mean to his friend and he is deflated.

49:52

And the moment where he switches off Data on the witness stand and Data

49:57

slumps in his chair is it takes my breath away now even though I've seen

50:02

this episode five, ten times now.

50:05

Like this week's episode of Strange New Worlds, it has the strong emotional

50:09

speeches that get me all choked up because people in Star Trek care

50:14

about things like principles and the truth, and it's just so heartwarming.

50:19

All of that is here. What is lacking is there is no real kind of legal mechanism that comes into play.

50:26

All that kind of happens is that Picard gives a better speech than Riker,

50:31

and the judge says, I'm convinced.

50:34

There's not much more beyond that. There is some let's tease apart what it means to be sentient.

50:39

It means three things. Data clearly satisfies two of the three.

50:44

So what about the third one? And there is a bit of exploration of the ideas here, but it's not quite as

50:51

satisfying an unwinding of the facts as what we get in Una's case this week.

50:57

Rob: And um, and this is early on then as well.

50:59

So this is like, uh, season, two.

51:02

Kevin: I think what we're learning is a good series of Star Trek needs at least

51:06

one courtroom drama in its first season to get its characters off the ground.

51:11

Rob: It really does. It really does. And this is one that people refer to so often when it comes to, Next Gen

51:18

episodes and Star Trek episodes in general, that is just top tier and it's

51:21

the quintessential elements of sci-fi.

51:24

Like you said, what is humanity against technology?

51:27

It's the same thing that they explore quite well in Voyager

51:31

with Robert Picordo's Doctor. What is a, what is just a simple program and what is the personality

51:36

and how do you define humanity, which is what you want to see in, in Sci-fi.

51:43

Kevin: I'd say arguably this is the episode where we recognize Data

51:47

for what he can be in this crew. He says things in his purely logical mechanical way that are so heartwarming,

51:55

like when Picard is appointed to be his counselor, Picard says, look if

52:00

there's anyone else who you think would do a better job, and Data says,

52:04

Captain, I have full faith in your ability to represent my interests.

52:08

And it's just like that bromance starts right there, that, that Data

52:12

expressing his undying confidence in Picard to look after him is there.

52:18

And at the very last scene of this episode, as everyone is celebrating Data's

52:22

victory Riker is nowhere to be found.

52:25

And Data tracks him down in the observation lounge.

52:27

And Riker is like leaning against the window, gazing off into space, going, I

52:32

don't deserve to be in the celebration. I almost won.

52:35

I could have cost you your life, Data. And data says if you hadn't done it I would've been ruled against.

52:41

Isn't that right? And Riker says, yeah. And he goes, You injured yourself to save me.

52:48

What better sign of friendship is there?

52:51

And it's just these earnest declarations of professional love for each

52:57

other really gets me every time. And there was plenty of that

53:00

Rob: I think, and that's, it's a big thing about Star Trek because

53:04

it is earnest and procedural.

53:06

Its way of like rank and file.

53:08

And so when these characters are working through, whether it be the original series

53:13

or whether it be in Next Gen or any of them, they're just so stuck in their roles

53:18

of command and the Federation and stuff.

53:20

So when they show a, they crack through that exterior with that same

53:25

earnestness, whenever you have Spock turn to Kirk and call him Jim and open

53:31

up honestly and earnestly from his heart, you go, Oh, and it's the same

53:36

here when, Riker being comforted by Data.

53:39

Kevin: Among all the other reasons to go back and watch The Measure Of A

53:42

Man, the one that is often forgotten is that this is the first poker game

53:46

in Star Trek: The Next Generation. Data learns to play poker in the opening cold open of this episode.

53:53

Rob: Good good. So yeah, I, it would be remiss in this Star Trek podcast not to, to

53:58

us, to mention at the end of it all what a wonderful exploration of

54:02

the trials and tribulations of the Federation in the star Trek world.

54:06

But big news that's just broken and heartbreaking news, even though

54:10

it was commissioned for a second season, Paramount+ has pulled

54:14

the plug on Star Trek: Prodigy.

54:17

So in a matter of days, season one will be taken off the air.

54:21

And even though they've already done season two, there's no guarantee of

54:25

where it will be played and when it Kevin: Yeah.

54:27

Season two is in the final stages of post-production, we're told,

54:31

and it will still get completed. My understanding here is Paramount has paid for the production, but

54:37

they have declined to retain the rights to actually air the thing.

54:43

So that. Rob: But it is a co-production with Nickelodeon,

54:46

Kevin: And it's also not coming to Nickelodeon.

54:48

So both places that it was airing are no longer, they have divested

54:53

themselves of those rights. And some of the coverage I've read about this stuff is it comes down to tax.

55:00

Tax concessions. Basically, if you not only cancel the series but take it off your

55:06

streaming service, you can claim a tax deduction, not just for the losses

55:12

that are present in this series, but also the projected future losses.

55:17

All of the income that those episodes were going to make in the future can

55:22

now be claimed as a tax break today.

55:24

So it's Paramount saying, look, we need money badly enough that we are going to

55:30

pick our own pockets from the future. And Star Trek: Prodigy will pay the price.

55:35

Rob: And there's quite, there's a number of other shows that

55:37

they've done this to as well. It's like the the grease prequel series rise of the Pink Ladies and

55:44

Yeah, across all streamers, they've been doing that, like Disney Plus

55:46

did a massive purge of shows off their streamer about a month ago.

55:50

But this would be one of the more high profile,

55:54

Kevin: It's not good news. One hopes it will find a home somewhere else, but that is somewhat dependent on

56:02

someone having enough money to pay for a Star Trek series, an already produced

56:07

Star Trek series, like Paramount's already paid for it to be made.

56:10

Someone just needs to pay to the, the rights to stream it now.

56:13

So you would expect that to be within reach of a Netflix or an

56:17

Amazon Prime or whatever it might be.

56:20

But there's no guarantees. And the feeling is that all of the money is draining out

56:25

of this streaming gold rush. And all of these companies that were competing with each other by greenlighting

56:30

anything that anyone would conceivably watch, all that money is going away.

56:35

So I, I am worried that we may never see Prodigy season two.

56:39

It seems almost inconceivable that a group of star Trek loving nerds would

56:44

have put together a full 10 episode, 20 episode season, we're told, of Star

56:50

Trek, and the world may never see it. One assumes it will get out someday, somehow someone will

56:56

pay to press those Blu-rays. But yeah, it, there's no guarantees now that we're ever gonna see it.

57:02

Rob: This is this is good, consistent Star Trek and good television, not

57:05

just for kids, but for all ages.

57:08

So for something to be taken off that is of such a high standard animation

57:12

wise, music wise, script writing wise and bringing back Kate Mulgrew and that,

57:16

to have it taken off and it is nowhere,

57:19

Kevin: a sad state of affairs. In any market that gets flooded by like competition fueled investment

57:25

like this, ultimately what happens is that there's more product than people

57:29

to pay for it at the end of the day.

57:31

And good stuff is going to pay the price of that.

57:36

I think I felt for a while now that there was way more star Trek being made

57:41

than could be justified given that they barely were able to keep it on the air

57:45

through, through the Enterprise era, and then it's been off the air all this

57:49

time, the idea that suddenly the world is ready for more Star Trek, like I've

57:54

been ready for more Star Trek every day.

57:57

But but I don't believe there are enough of us out there to pay for four prestige

58:02

series in production at the same time.

58:05

Yeah. So something had to give, sadly.

58:08

I think Prodigy is just the one that didn't find its audience.

58:12

Because the people who are nostalgically attached to Star Trek, it's the

58:15

last one they were gonna watch because it was marketed for kids.

58:20

Rob: Yes. And it was that case of we have been getting a sense

58:22

of the environment shifting.

58:25

Everyone's just gone, okay, writing is on the wall.

58:27

Let's go, let's put all of our attention into making our one

58:32

Kevin: Yeah, Rob: Strange New Worlds. Kevin: And it clarifies one of the reasons why Star Trek: Legacy

58:37

is potentially a hard sell. Because yes, all the Star Trek fans want to watch it, but there aren't enough

58:44

Star Trek fans to pay for two series.

58:46

And so they've already got Strange New Worlds.

58:49

The sets are built, the actors are hired, the costumes are made.

58:52

It's in production and it's successful.

58:55

We've got a very good, proven safe investment in a Star Trek: Legacy,

59:01

but we don't need that right now. What we need to be doing is shutting down Star Trek series.

59:06

So that's my worry. For Prodigy, I hope the fact that it is made for children is potentially

59:12

its salvation, because the one thing streaming services need is a lot

59:17

of content for kids because parents love to pay that bill so that their

59:22

kids can have something to watch. So yeah, I hope, a Netflix or something can come along pay that

59:28

relatively modest bill and get some fresh young eyeballs learning what

59:34

Star Trek is and how amazing it is. Rob: Yeah, it's a sad day from, for all the people involved.

59:39

So wonderful voiceovers, actors, wonderful animators, wonderful

59:42

script writers and directors and everyone involved in Prodigy.

59:46

It must be devastating for Kevin: The fact that season one was such a tight beginning, middle and end

59:51

makes me feel like it could have ended there and I would've been satisfied.

59:54

But that also tells me that this season two, that is all but done,

59:58

is probably also a very satisfying, self-contained story, that it would

1:00:03

be a shame if we never get to see. Rob: Oh, if only we could.

1:00:08

We'll see what happens in the future.

1:00:11

Until next week.