0:09

Kevin: Hello and welcome back to Subspace Radio.

0:12

It's me, Kevin Yank. Rob: And me DJ Rob Lloyd.

0:16

Kevin: We are here to talk about Strange New Worlds, season two, episode three,

0:19

Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow.

0:22

Rob this is another Shakespeare quote, if I'm not mistaken.

0:25

Rob: It is they go hand in hand like ice cream and whiskey,

0:28

Star Trek and Shakespeare. The perfect combination.

0:32

Following on a long tradition of Star Trek episodes named after Shakespearean

0:37

quotes, I think even from From this particular passage from Macbeth, there's

0:41

a classic, original series episode and All Our Yesterdays and of course the multiple

0:46

quoting of Shakespeare in Star Trek VI.

0:49

What more do you need? Kevin: The thing that popped out in this episode that we're going

0:53

to discuss at greater length as it echoes into Star Trek history is the

0:59

idea of shifting the goalposts or correcting a perceived inconsistency

1:04

in Star Trek history after the fact.

1:06

Rob: This is a big, contentious issue. It's, it's exploding online at the moment.

1:11

Like we're, we are in our own lovely little bubble and we, listen to each

1:15

other and we have commonalities and disagreements here or there, but

1:19

there's quite a lot of people who do not like the status quo as it were,

1:24

being shifted or adjusted accordingly.

1:27

They like things the way they are, the way they should be, and that's

1:30

how it is and always should be. And other people a lot more flexible and able to keep up with the changing

1:38

structure of this constant evolving narrative canon that is Star Trek.

1:44

Kevin: It's a relatively small element, just dropped in at the end of this

1:47

episode of just oh, by the way, this explains the shift in the timeline

1:52

for the Eugenics Wars that were originally set to occur in the 1990s

1:57

according to the original series.

1:59

And now it happens sometime in the 2050s.

2:03

And that we are led to believe is because of all of the kind of temporal

2:07

cold war jockeying that has happened.

2:10

All the little incursions that secret Romulans have made into Earth history.

2:14

It still happens. It just happens a little later now.

2:17

And that buys us some time to make some more Star Trek that

2:20

has a chance of coming true. Rob: And Kevin, that is a very well-grounded, calm,

2:27

logical explanation of it.

2:29

And there are other people who, I mean, I get this all the time

2:32

within Doctor Who canon as well.

2:35

But yeah, Star Trek in many ways was started by one man's vision and then it

2:39

shifted and evolved through especially its resurgence in the nineties and

2:43

how they divert off that original Roddenberry vision of the future.

2:47

And of course, obviously Nicholas Meyer took it off track and made it

2:49

more, space navy in Star Trek II.

2:52

But whereas Doctor Who always evolved because it never had a, a Bible as it

2:57

were at the start, like Roddenberry did.

2:59

Its continuity is messed up because it has no continual continuity.

3:04

It shifts and changes. And Star Trek is, the longer it goes on is realizing as this

3:10

can be flexible and changes. And there are fans who go along with it and there are fans who just go, no,

3:16

this is linear, this is structured. It is one line.

3:19

And that's all it is. And it's amazing.

3:21

How that, as you said, just a little shift here to give us a bit more

3:25

time has caused ripples within, a loud but small vocal group.

3:30

Kevin: So we'll talk about some other episodes where that sort of

3:32

thing has happened in the past. But first, let's talk about Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow.

3:36

What did you think, Rob? Rob: I really liked it. I really loved it.

3:39

I loved the the concept of it.

3:41

Our captain was sidelined yet again.

3:43

So I think this is all tied in with the real life Anson Mount needing time off to

3:48

be with his family and his newborn child.

3:50

But that brought James, T. Kirk back, our new version James T.

3:55

Kirk back into the fray and going on a time travel mission.

3:59

He was, of course, from a parallel universe with La'an.

4:02

Kevin: Again, another parallel universe Kirk.

4:05

We did get to meet the prime universe Kirk on a Zoom call at the end of this episode.

4:10

But other than that it's been they've been teasing us with Jim Kirk.

4:14

We're, wh when are we gonna see the, the real Jim Kirk?

4:17

Rob: Will the real Jim Kirk, please stand up.

4:19

Please stand up. And it, yeah, it was sort of like, where is this episode gonna go?

4:23

Is it gonna be action adventure? Is it gonna be time travel conundrum?

4:26

Is it gonna be Kevin: Where it's going to go, Rob is to Canada.

4:31

I was really happy to see Canada, future Canada.

4:35

I'm a, I am a proud Canadian myself, and when they landed in Toronto and

4:40

identified it as Toronto, on the one hand you're like well, yes, that makes sense.

4:45

That's where you're filming the show. It's cheap to step outside your front door and say, look, we're

4:50

in Toronto, and add a couple of CG enhancements to make it look futuristic.

4:54

But otherwise, it's pretty much Toronto of today.

4:58

But you know, so often we go to other parts of the world in Star Trek

5:02

and it's great to get a canonical glimpse of future metropolitan Canada.

5:07

I was tickled by that. Rob: Well, Toronto has become sort of like Hollywood of the North, as it said.

5:12

So many TV shows do shoot up there, like the Arrowverse series, like

5:16

the Flash and Arrow and all those type of shows shot up in Toronto.

5:20

I think that line of James, T. Kirk saying, oh, it's New York, was a little bit of a meta

5:25

reference to the fact of Toronto has played New York so many times.

5:30

Because it does have its own sentient presence, of course it

5:33

must have been relieved to, for Toronto to finally play itself.

5:36

Kevin: There, there was an interesting line by our fake Romulan later when she's

5:40

helping them out at the traffic stop and like doing some fast talking from the side

5:44

of the street to get them outta trouble. And she says, you're discriminating against him as an American.

5:49

And I was like, wow. What are we meant to believe is going on in the 2050s here with Canada and America?

5:56

Like the are Americans truly discriminated against north of the border?

6:00

Or is that just something a Romulan spy made up and hoped it would make sense?

6:04

Rob: A tantalizing taste of, of what's to come.

6:07

But there was great odd couple type of the team up between La'an

6:11

and Kirk and like they're having to begrudgingly work together.

6:15

The more relaxed Kirk with the more focused and determined La'an.

6:20

Hot dogs were involved with no sauce or mustard or anything.

6:24

Kevin: Yeah, it was weird. I said out loud, aren't you gonna have some mustard at least?

6:29

Uh, It was weird. Rob: It was very weird. And then we get a little, a little taste of romance which I thought was handled

6:35

really well to get that all in 45 minutes.

6:38

It's a lot to cram in, but it was Kevin: It was really good.

6:41

So much of this rests on the performance by Christina Chong

6:47

as La'an, and she nailed it here.

6:50

Rob: She's incredible. She's absolutely incredible.

6:52

Kevin: just want more La'an now. I want this the Star Trek La'an show, but at the same time like, this is

6:57

how you do it's, you look at Discovery and you go, we, we, we wanna tell some

7:03

stories about someone who's not the captain of a ship, at least not yet.

7:06

And so we will make it Star Trek: Michael Burnham.

7:09

And it's all about Michael Burnham.

7:11

And Michael Burnham is effectively a superhero in the Star Trek universe by

7:15

the end, and rises to Captain a ship.

7:19

And here it trades much more on the strength of the performances

7:25

and the strength of the characters. I don't need to feel like La'an is on the fast track to a captaincy

7:30

in order for me to buy into a story about her as a character.

7:35

And so I love this so much that Strange New Worlds is getting a lot of mileage

7:42

out of its ensemble about individual members of its ensemble because each

7:46

one of them is a strong enough actor and a strong enough character that they

7:49

can carry a story all by themselves. And I don't miss the rest of the cast.

7:53

I trust they'll be back next week. And getting up close and personal with La'an here, seeing her against her own

8:00

better judgment fall for the rascally Jim Kirk here stranded in 2050s Canada.

8:06

I, I bought it hook, line, and sinker.

8:09

I loved it. And it was heartbreaking at the end when she lost everything

8:14

and was alone in her grief and couldn't talk to anyone about it.

8:17

That last moment where she like puts down the PADD switches off the call

8:22

with Kirk and just collapses into tears. I was I was like, wow, she is good.

8:27

Wow. She is good. Rob: Not bad for a um, British actor who got her start in a

8:32

Matt Smith, Doctor Who era story. A Good Man Goes to War.

8:35

She was amazing in that. And it's good to see

8:37

Kevin: I have to go back and watch that. I don't remember her in that at all.

8:39

Rob: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. She has a, a, a crucial part within A Good Man Goes to War.

8:44

Now last time we had the appearance of James T.

8:46

Kirk. You had some thoughts on the performance.

8:49

How did you find this return performance of Kirk?

8:53

Kevin: Look, it's much the same for me here. I do not see in his performance the character that we got to know so

9:01

well as William Shatner's, James T.

9:04

Kirk. And, love them or hate them, those JJ movies, I felt like Chris

9:10

Pine did a version of James T.

9:13

Kirk that I recognized. It felt like the same person to me.

9:17

He made choices from the same emotional truth.

9:21

And I am not getting that from James T.

9:24

Kirk. Here what I'm getting is a character named James T.

9:27

Kirk who I like and I, I enjoy on screen.

9:30

I am there for this James T.

9:32

Kirk, and the stories we will get to tell with him.

9:35

But I kind of have to do like a mental rounding up of, okay, we're gonna

9:41

pretend this is the same person. It doesn't feel like the same person, but we will accept for the logic of

9:45

the story that they're the same person.

9:47

I don't know if we are gonna get there. The actor has done some interviews where he says he's deliberately

9:53

steered away from doing an impression or an impersonation about

9:56

what has been done with James T.

9:58

Kirk in the past, and in part this is a younger James T.

10:02

Kirk, who is still growing to be the James T.

10:04

Kirk that we knew in the original series.

10:08

But it's still a bit of a gap for me.

10:11

I think it's not going to be resolved, but it doesn't necessarily need to

10:15

be resolved for me to enjoy this characterization for its own sake.

10:18

Rob: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I felt that while watching this one, I just went, yeah, he's an entity unto

10:24

himself and I can see the choices he's making is not to emulate Shatner at all.

10:30

And I love the fact that they're leaning into, even though they haven't actually

10:33

shared any screen time, I love how they're leaning into his connection with Sam.

10:38

I'm just, they're going great. That's great. That's really good.

10:41

Now give them some screen time together for heaven's sake.

10:44

Like just Kevin: That moment of Sam's alive.

10:46

Rob: oh my Kevin: now I can accept that your timeline is the best timeline.

10:50

Cuz all we got to see of Sam originally in the original series was,

10:53

Rob: A dead Kevin: William Shatner lying dead on the floor with a mustache.

10:58

Rob: And then at the end he comes back and he goes, I'm just here to talk about Sam.

11:01

He goes, oh no. What's Sam done? What's he done? Kevin: Yep.

11:03

It's it's really good. That stuff's very satisfying for sure.

11:07

Rob: Beautiful little foreboding drop and appearance of Carol Kane, Pelia

11:12

in, in, back in they had to do a, they had to do some big travel to get from

11:16

Kevin: they did. Like apparently Jim Kirk won a lot of money in the park playing chess in order

11:22

to be able to bribe not once, but twice, the border guards to cross the border

11:26

into the United States, which uh, you know I, kind of went, you went where and how

11:33

Rob: And a re and a really good hotel room as well.

11:36

That's a penthouse Kevin: Yeah, that was a nice hotel.

11:38

I wanna know where that hotel is. I wanna stay there.

11:41

Rob: But yeah, it was, Kevin: Pelia was delightful and that whole scene was entertaining

11:46

enough that I just went with it. I was like, yeah, I don't believe that you made it across the

11:50

border with the resources at your disposal, but I want to believe.

11:55

Rob: And as soon as, yeah, Carol Kane shows up, all is right with the world.

11:59

Are you warming to Pelia more now? After, after.

12:03

Kevin: Yeah she's, she's no less weird.

12:06

But I'm starting to have fun with the weirdness.

12:09

Her accent is absurd, but so consistent.

12:14

Like there are so many things going on there that it could just be a

12:18

mess that changes from week to week.

12:20

But she is zeroed in on something that is both like at 11 in terms of absurdity,

12:26

but also rock solid, consistent, that the character does not change.

12:31

The character is the character. And so I am on board with Pelia now.

12:35

Rob: And, and Kevin, you have just hit on the secret ingredient that

12:39

has made Carol Kane the success She has been for nearly 40 years, or over

12:43

Kevin: Weird accents. Rob: We well, yeah, she got her big break on Taxi.

12:48

She was brought in as Andy Kaufman's love interest, I'm doing

12:51

in inverted commas, from the same made up country that Andy Kaufman's

12:56

mechanic was, and she matched him.

12:58

So that was a character he, his foreign guy was a character just created by Andy

13:03

Kaufman and Carol Kane was brought in.

13:05

He go, you have to copy something that is so unique and specific to Kauffman.

13:11

And she did, and it was near the tail end of Taxi, so it was

13:14

fading, but she was incredible.

13:16

And she's done weird accents in all pretty much everything she does, like

13:20

her work in Princess Bride, her work in Fairytale Theater, her work in Scrooged.

13:25

You just accept, you get a hundred percent commitment and you get weird,

13:31

bold, incredible choices that work because of her commitment to that.

13:36

Kevin: The writing around her character is great too.

13:38

I just love the choice of, I'm not an engineer.

13:41

This isn't an engineer's workshop. What are you talking about?

13:44

And of course, when you live that long you go through multiple careers.

13:48

Uh, So very good. I when La'an came back and Pelia was on the bridge there, I was

13:54

like, do you recognize her? Do you remember her?

13:56

Uh, No. She's she was pretty drunk in that scene.

13:59

I, she probably doesn't remember her at all.

14:01

Probably forgot her 10 minutes after they Rob: I am looking forward to going back and rewatching and over-analyzing

14:06

that final scene to go, is she looking? Is that a knowing look?

14:09

Is that not, or is that just a drunken look?

14:11

Yeah, and of course it wasn't that much of a shock, but it was a shock moment of that

14:16

Kirk being killed off from that timeline.

14:20

Kevin: That whole, yeah, that, that got me.

14:22

The Romulan spy, Sera was delightful as well.

14:26

She played it, she played a character that for some reason I could buy

14:31

that she was a Romulan agent, but at the same time was not doing any of

14:34

the arch high status villain stuff that you normally see from Romulans.

14:40

I don't know it was just the pale skin and dark hair that made me think

14:44

Romulan, but whatever it was, there was something Romulan about her that when it

14:49

was revealed, I was like, I'm an idiot. Of course, that's Romulan spy.

14:52

But but at the same time, such an interesting we didn't get to spend a

14:56

lot of time with her, but there was more there than was on the script page.

15:00

And that's a testament to the work the actor was doing.

15:02

Rob: And that leads to the final climactic moment, of course, where La'an gets

15:07

to meet her descendant, and we get to see the child version of one of the,

15:13

biggest and most infamous villains within Star Trek a child version of Khan.

15:20

Kevin: Yeah. And as soon as the name plaque was on the door and it said Khan, and my encyclopedic

15:28

brain for Star Trek facts is spinning and going what Khan is behind that door?

15:32

Is it like a university professor?

15:34

Surely Khan is already off in sleep on the Botany Bay by now, as far as we know.

15:40

So who is this Khan, what's behind that door?

15:43

And then when they open it and it's a young child, I'm like okay.

15:46

It's Baby Khan. How can that make sense? I want it to make sense, but I can't figure out how it makes sense.

15:52

And then they're like, yeah, this happens 50 years later than it used to.

15:56

Rob: Yeah, the Romulan had to wait around. They went back to the nineties and had to wait around.

16:00

Kevin: It's very interesting. It's unexpected enough, it's a big enough swing that like, I felt like if they made

16:07

a small change, the narcissism of minor differences would have me more upset

16:13

about a small change that feels arbitrary.

16:16

A big change feels like, okay, that's purposeful.

16:18

That takes us somewhere interesting. A big change will have big repercussions, and I wanna, I'm

16:23

curious what those are going to be now. So I was willing to go along with it, at least in the moment.

16:28

Rob: Yeah, and it was very much a case of sci-fi doing what it's best

16:31

at is answering those big questions.

16:34

So everyone asked that if you had the ability to go back in time,

16:37

would kill Hitler as a baby? Kevin: Especially if Hitler was your ancestor.

16:42

Rob: Yes, exactly. And Hitler was a, augmented psychopath.

16:46

But it's also that case of, the ultimate evil, what good comes out of that?

16:52

And so clearly we have seen a reality in this alternate reality of where

16:58

the decision to kill Kahan when a baby resulted in actually a worse

17:04

timeline for Earth and that universe.

17:07

So actually having the horrors of what Khan did actually

17:11

results in a better future. It's, yeah, all that

17:15

Kevin: it's a bigger, it's a bigger version of City on the Edge of Forever

17:18

where Kirk has to let his girlfriend die in a traffic accident in order

17:23

to restore the future timeline. It's another ver bigger version of that, and I really appreciated that

17:30

as an, as an echo of Star Trek's past.

17:33

Rob: Yeah, that whole combination of a bigger ramifications.

17:36

But this is your family. This is your Kevin: The necessary evil, the horrific, enormous, necessary evil.

17:43

Rob: So three episodes down and two killer episodes.

17:46

Um, uh, Kevin: I think this is my favorite so far.

17:48

They're going from strength to strength. And if the season keeps building like this, I don't know where

17:53

we're gonna be by the end. I wanna know if we're gonna get more Kirk.

17:57

I think we've been given a hint that there is more Kirk in the offing, but

18:01

this feels to me like the original story that Paul Wesley was cast to be Kirk for.

18:07

My understanding is that his appearance in the season finale of season one

18:10

was a thing they did after that, that that was tacked on as a second idea.

18:16

And that originally he was cast to appear as Kirk in season two.

18:20

Rob: Right. Kevin: So I wonder how much more of him we have in season two

18:23

Rob: Yeah. Yeah. I think he's working well within the show and working with the cast

18:28

and they're definitely enjoying the development of where they, what

18:33

they can do with uh, this character. Kevin: So let's talk about course corrections or timeline changes in Star

18:40

Trek history, things that were changed to hopefully make things make more sense

18:45

that may have rankled fans in the process.

18:47

Rob: The dreaded R word, retcon. Kevin: Retcon!

18:52

The retrospective continuity story.

18:55

Yeah. Rob: Look doing this podcast has finally rubbed off on me and I'm

18:59

stepping outside of my comfort zone more often, more regularly now,

19:03

because I think it, it's a disservice.

19:05

It's not a disservice to Deep Space Nine because I love it so much, but

19:08

it is a disservice to this podcast and our dear listeners and your good self

19:13

that I don't spread my wings a bit. So I have returned, I have gone back.

19:18

To the place that I went to last week.

19:20

I have gone back to Enterprise.

19:23

Kevin: Hey, I think we picked the same stuff, Rob.

19:26

So we're gonna, we're gonna have a great conversation.

19:28

Rob: gonna be looking at, and I hope you're looking at as well

19:30

Kevin: Yeah. Rob: The two part story from season four, Affliction

19:33

Kevin: Affliction and Divergence yeah.

19:36

Rob: where they decided to answer the question that nobody really

19:39

wanted to answer and nobody really wanted the answer to.

19:42

And everyone was very happy with how it was answered as a throwaway line in

19:45

Deep Space Nine Trial & Tribble-ations. But they went and did it anyway.

19:49

Why the hell did the Klingons look different in the original series

19:53

than they do in the movies and the subsequent nineties TV shows and on

19:57

Kevin: Yes. So for those of you who may be catching up here, in the 1960s when Star Trek,

20:03

the original series was made, Klingons were largely played by white actors

20:08

with lots of bronzer on their face in a choice that would not stand up to

20:14

scrutiny in today's modern sensibilities.

20:17

And they had maybe some extra big eyebrows and extra fumanchu mustaches on but they

20:23

were mainly like human looking people with dark complexions and bigger hair.

20:31

And then when the movies came along and the budgets got bigger,

20:35

the Klingons were reimagined with forehead ridges and armor and and

20:41

everything else they've got going on. And and teeth, yes, scraggly teeth.

20:46

No ears for a long time until we finally saw Worf's ears here in the last season

20:52

of Star Trek: Picard, satisfying the long running question of do Klingons have ears.

20:56

That change, Gene Roddenberry famously said, I don't think we need to explain it.

21:03

People are intelligent. They knew, they know, we got some more money.

21:06

We decided to use it to do something interesting.

21:08

That is meant to be how Klingons were all along.

21:12

Rob: Yeah. Kevin: In our imaginations.

21:14

And it just, the historical document that we were making with Star Trek did

21:19

not have enough money to fully represent Klingons to their full fidelity.

21:23

And we are asked to squint and blur our vision and understand

21:28

that, that's what they were trying to represent all this time.

21:31

Rob: Suspension of disbelief. Kevin: Yeah, but there were just enough fans who always asked the

21:37

question, why were they different? Is there a story there?

21:40

Could there be a story there? Maybe it would be interesting for there to be a story there.

21:45

And they teased us with it in Deep Space Nine, Trials

21:49

& Tribble-ations, you mentioned. Rob, do as

21:51

Rob: Very well, very beautifully handled. To celebrate 30 years of Star Trek during Deep Space Nine's fifth season the crew

21:59

of the Defiant are sent back to the original series time where the Tribbles

22:03

episode is happening and they need to stop a bomb within a Tribble going off

22:07

and changing the course of history. And while they're there, they get all clothed up like they're

22:12

in the original series era. Worf has to put on cossack clothing to hide his bumps and stuff.

22:18

And they're sitting down at a cafeteria on the base and O'Brien, Odo and Bashir look

22:24

over and they go, oh they're Klingons. And they go, what?

22:26

And then they look back at Worf and he just rather uncomfortably going, we

22:30

do not talk about it with outsiders. And that's it.

22:33

And that's it. And they just move on. Kevin: Genius.

22:37

Rob: I've been watching a lot of online docos and fan stuff

22:40

about about that type of stuff. And cuz during this time Ronald D.

22:44

Moore, who went on to do Battlestar Galactica was working

22:46

on Deep Space Nine at the time. He goes, it doesn't need an explanation.

22:50

That's it. That's enough. Just Kevin: that's better than any explanation we could tell.

22:53

It was the kind of the idea. And there was no escaping it either.

22:56

Like the conceit of the episode is they used the old footage from

23:00

the original series and placed our modern characters into it.

23:04

And as long as you were gonna have a Worf on screen alongside those sixties

23:08

Klingons, the question had to be asked.

23:11

Otherwise, all of our characters would look irrational.

23:14

So the fun thing was they're like, yeah, let's turn it into a joke,

23:18

because that is more satisfying than attempting to explain this thing.

23:22

And it was great for quite a few years until, um, you know,

23:27

Enterprise was looking for story ideas in its fourth season.

23:30

Rob: I found it very interesting. I did, I knew very little about Enterprise obviously, cuz I haven't seen much of it.

23:35

But watching these docos online have been really fascinating to find out

23:39

about season four especially cuz they Pillar and Bragga had moved on.

23:43

They had a new showrunner, the budget from UPN the Paramount LED network that

23:48

Enterprise was the flagship on cut the budget to from 1.7 million dollars an

23:53

episode to like, 800,000 or whatever.

23:57

So one of the budgetary restraints, and what they did is they decided

24:01

to make pretty much every episode a two or three, a two-parter.

24:05

So therefore, to cut down on.

24:08

Hiring of actors using the same sets, same makeup, all that type of stuff.

24:13

So we get a two-parter, which should have been a one parter exploring

24:17

how the Klingons looked human. Kevin: I have been bemoaning the state of Enterprise in some

24:23

recent episodes of this podcast. But to research this, I watched a significant amount of season four

24:30

Enterprise, and I have to say, despite the budget cuts, despite the sense

24:34

that this show was on its last legs before cancellation, I have to say I

24:39

enjoy season four of Enterprise more than any other part of Enterprise.

24:44

in a sense, they were kind of in a, we have nothing to lose state here.

24:48

There was the fresh fresh hand at the wheel with Manny Coto as showrunner,

24:53

and he was a Star Trek fan and he knew what Star Trek fans love is finding

24:59

cracks in the canon to tell stories from.

25:04

And that is what season four is from beginning to end after they resolve the

25:08

weirdness of being trapped in World War II at the start of the season, they bring

25:13

us back and then the rest of it is, let's go to Vulcan and learn some stuff about

25:19

Vulcans that we've never learned before. There's a three parter about Arik Soong, a descendant of Khan Noonien Soong and

25:27

a precursor to the Soong that creates data, and it is connected to this episode.

25:33

We get a three-part story about Augments and and a Augment

25:37

crisis that happens here. Rob: And we get our mirror universe story as well in season four.

25:43

Kevin: And those things are all, each of them by themselves and together are

25:48

examples of stronger, more confident storytelling, taking bigger swings

25:52

than I think Enterprise had done in any of its three first seasons.

25:56

Rob: Yeah, I've heard I've heard season three is actually a good

25:59

course correction and so like a series arc, which is quite good.

26:03

And season four was sort of like ramping up that quality as well.

26:07

There was just running on fumes and so the show already had plans for what

26:10

they were gonna do with season five. They were gonna, alter the Enterprise to look a bit more like the,

26:15

the original series Enterprise. They were gonna bring on Jeffrey Combs's character as a regular.

26:20

They had that going, that everyone wanted it to happen, except the

26:24

entire viewing audience and UPN cuz Star Trek it had been going for,

26:29

what, 15 years in this new format. And at the start of, the noughties new TV shows and new formats were

26:36

filling up that genre quota. Kevin: Yeah I think it is somewhat of a shame that two-parter about Klingons'

26:45

mutation is probably the weakest story here in season four of Enterprise.

26:49

Having watched it, I had trouble sitting through it.

26:52

I had trouble maintaining my attention for two full episodes.

26:55

By the end, I wasn't entirely sure what had happened with Phlox and the

27:00

Klingon scientists and the virus.

27:03

And my understanding is what happens here ultimately is that the Klingons

27:07

have gotten hold of the Augment virus.

27:10

It's very interesting to me that this story has us understand that the same

27:16

genetic modifications that enabled Augments to become the threat that they

27:21

became on Earth was used in an attempt for, Klingons were feeling we need to keep

27:27

up with these humans if they're gonna make Augments, we need to make super Klingon

27:31

Rob: If, If two augments could take down an entire

27:35

Kevin: Yeah. As they do in the three parter about augments with Brent Spiner.

27:39

Yeah. And in the end, Phlox manages to defang this virus and go, it will

27:46

now complete its first phase, which is it takes your forehead, ridges

27:49

away and makes you look human. But it will not do its second phase, which is give you superpowers.

27:55

And so now there is this, rampant defanged virus that is gonna sweep

27:59

through Klingon society and make a bunch of flat skinned Klingons.

28:05

Rob: Uh, you're watching it go. Okay. So this is where they explain it, but they actually don't.

28:09

It is so complicated. So it's not just that story, it's the story of Trip going on to the Columbus.

28:15

It's got the story of Malcolm Reed and

28:18

Kevin: It's the Columbia, I believe, Rob: Yeah.

28:20

And Malcolm Reed's allegiance to, yeah, section 31.

28:24

But they went, okay, so let's explain this.

28:27

It was the augments thing, but then it got infected by the flu, which made it change.

28:32

And then it has three stages, and the first stage isn't contagious,

28:35

but the next stage is, and then the final stage is death.

28:38

And then there's this, and then there's that. And then we have to do this, but then we have to put it into a human,

28:42

and then we have to take it out of a human and put it here, and then we

28:44

Kevin: And then flocks double crosses him and says he is gonna do one

28:47

thing and he does the other thing. Yeah. It's just so many layers and it feels like all of these confusing back flips

28:55

are in service of cramming a story into the cracks of canon and making

29:02

it link to as many things as possible.

29:04

And it is not worth it in the end.

29:07

Which I think brings back to, brings us back to that original sentiment

29:10

by Gene Roddenberry of is more interesting not to worry about it.

29:15

Rob: And going, and we'll try and explain it, but we will still

29:18

leave some things up in the air. So I'm there going, what have I just put up with for 90 minutes?

29:23

Like they're there going, right? So this is gonna be passed on to our children for generations.

29:27

Oh. But then I can go into cosmetic surgery.

29:30

Oh, there'll be a lot of need for that. I'm going, what does this mean?

29:33

What does any of this mean? It's just

29:38

Kevin: and and what is, what is the impact on the characters we care about?

29:43

Next to nothing. Rob: Yeah, the, there's stuff in there I like.

29:47

Scott Bakula was a lot better in this than he was in Judgment.

29:51

And that whole essence of why they did it in that time period was that they

29:56

were closer to our version of humanity.

29:59

So they're a little bit more rough around the edges. So Archer is a lot more aggressive and emotional when

30:04

it comes to you betrayed me. You wouldn't have that type of loss of control really with a Picard or a Janeway.

30:09

They have that anger, but still keep it, that elevated level of the future.

30:14

And Billingsley was incredible as Phlox.

30:17

He's amazing. That energy that he has a countermand to what Neelix was who was meant to be a

30:24

buffoon, but that was just an to cover the fact that he is actually quite devious.

30:28

But they lost that, and they just made Neelix a buffoon.

30:31

In this the outer shell of Phlox's chipper nature belies underneath,

30:37

he's a dedicated surgeon and a serious man and a very intelligent man.

30:41

And Billingsley plays that beautifully.

30:44

There's a great line when they talk about their family and their

30:47

backgrounds, and he goes, so every male of your species has three wives

30:53

and every wife has three husbands?

30:55

That must make mating complex. And he goes, Wondrously so.

30:58

And I'm going, Yeah! Kevin: Yeah, Rob: There's some great stuff in there.

31:02

I actually like Trip. Trip has actually, actually grew on me.

31:06

I'm there going, I like this character and I know what happens

31:09

to him is a cheap payoff and there going him and T'Pol, I don't get

31:13

Kevin: This place where he and T'Pol find themselves of the post will

31:17

they, won't they, where T'Pol has had to go through with an arranged

31:20

marriage and Trip is look, I'm gonna need some space and some time.

31:24

Rob: But it just get, it gets so caught up in going, we wanna explain stuff, but

31:28

we're gonna over connect everything like you said, to the Augments and to Soong.

31:33

And, but then we don't want to go too specific cuz we still wanna leave a

31:36

bit of vaguary cuz there's still a hundred years worth of evolution before

31:40

we get to the original series and I'm there going, it's just utter nonsense.

31:44

Kevin: The preceding episodes, the three parter, Borderland, Cold Station 12, and

31:49

The Augments is much more interesting.

31:52

There is a bit of Star Trek II cosplay going on, like the group of Augments

31:57

that Arik suing has raised from babies and like he, there are scenes where

32:02

he's like leading a classroom and it's a bit, it's a bit Jedi Academy sort

32:07

of thing but low budget and a, as they grow up, they all get holes in their

32:13

clothes so that like they, they look like those scruffy eighties ruffians

32:17

that you get to see in Star Trek II. But they are all wearing the exact same clothes with the exact same holes in

32:22

the exact same places, to the point where it's almost a fashion choice, but

32:26

it looks like an impractical one where they must be cold a lot of the time.

32:31

Especially the love interest of the Augments, she has some, very prominent

32:36

gaps in her upper chest clothing, let's say uh, that, that are there

32:41

to keep the male viewers interested. But apart from those bits of like awkwardness, this story is interesting.

32:49

I think Arik Soong is interesting, seeing Brent Spiner play a completely

32:53

unlikable, unsympathetic ancestor of his.

32:58

It's way more interesting than it is when they do it in season

33:01

two of Star Trek: Picard. They do it more effectively here, they do more with him.

33:07

It's, it is enjoyable to watch Brent Spiner want to believe in these

33:12

Augments and say, look, they've, they're just prejudiced against it.

33:15

They can be better than us. They can be the future.

33:19

And then one by one as the dominoes fall and they betray him as their father and

33:24

he is forced to reckon with the fact that they are an unstoppable force of evil that

33:29

he is going to have to turn his back on. That is an interesting turn for Brent Spiner as a guest star

33:35

and it's most there on screen.

33:38

The fact that this was a strong enough series of episodes, I think is in part

33:42

why they wanted to pick up that thread and go, oh, and some of that Augment

33:46

virus gets out and we're get to tell a story about the Klingons because of it.

33:50

Unfortunately, that is a weaker story. If you were going to be inspired by this week's episode of Strange New Worlds and

33:56

the story about the Augments shifting in the timeline, I would suggest the

34:01

thing to watch would be this three parter of Borderland, Cold Station 12,

34:06

and The Augments with Brent Spiner. Rob: Yeah.

34:09

Other notable things about Affliction and Divergence is some of the cast.

34:12

We have James Avery, who a lot of people would know from

34:15

the Fresh Prince of Bel Air. He plays one of the king on Klingon generals.

34:19

He's really good at it. They bring back dear old John Schuck, who we know as the

34:24

ambassador from Star Trek IV. There shall be no peace as long as Kirk lives.

34:29

Kevin: Very recognizable voice that like the first thing he says with

34:33

any emotion in it, you go, hang on. I know that emotion.

34:37

Rob: And of course a huge Star Trek fan and creator of Family Guy, and also

34:41

lead and creator of uh, The Orville.

34:44

One of the second best tributes to Star Trek after Galaxy Quest,

34:48

of course, seth McFarlane is there

34:50

Kevin: Yeah. It's weird now that we, he's gone on to be the captain of the ship in The Orville,

34:55

it's really weird seeing him here. It is hard not to read him as the captain of The Orville who

35:01

is in his spare time watching a holodeck program about Enterprise.

35:06

Rob: Yeah. That you, yeah. When anything comes to Enterprise and you see someone familiar going, oh,

35:10

it's just Riker again in the final episode, this is another cop out thing.

35:13

I like the smaller confine nature of this.

35:17

I love how like the engine room, it feels like the engine room of a

35:21

submarine or or like the engine room of Firefly where it's just you have you so

35:27

crammed in and all that type of stuff.

35:29

I love that type of field that they got a gist of, and they could have gone

35:32

further, but I think they were tied down by the era they were in, which

35:35

is always a problem with Star Trek.

35:38

Kevin: So I guess looking back in my mind on this less successful example of

35:43

the show saying there is a question in canon and we can turn that into a story.

35:52

I think what we saw in Strange New Worlds this week, and it is fresh

35:57

evidence in my mind of just how good a job the writers behind Strange

36:01

New Worlds are doing is they did the same trick, but they did it better.

36:05

They said, we are going to acknowledge and address a question

36:09

in canon, but we're not going to go so far as to explain it to death.

36:13

To create a big two-parter around explaining away these intricacies

36:19

of canon questions that most of our audience is not aware of and doesn't

36:22

care about and ultimately does not impact the characters we care about.

36:27

Instead, they said, okay, there is that question there.

36:30

We are going to answer it, but the story we're gonna tell is

36:33

going to be impactful to La'an. And that comes first.

36:37

We are not gonna give you all the details.

36:39

We're gonna say, it shifted. This Romulan had to wait around.

36:41

That's all you need to know. And way stronger way of approaching it.

36:46

So yeah, that's really all I had Rob this, five episodes here in

36:50

the fourth season of Enterprise. That to me is the one big example I had of the showrunners trying

36:56

to course correct in canon. Did you have anything else you wanted to talk about?

37:00

Rob: I do. I went back to, I did a bit of research into it.

37:03

I was fascinated by it cause I had never actually seen the original episode.

37:07

We've talked about it a little bit, but I wanted to look at the retconning,

37:12

slash evolution of the Trill.

37:15

So I've been watching a bit of stuff about behind the scenes of Deep Space Nine.

37:19

I went back and actually watched The Host from season four of Enterprise and

37:24

to see that shift and change, where it started from a practical point of view

37:28

and whether it's been explained or not, cuz the Trill in their first appearance

37:32

in season four of The Next Generation have the same elements but do evolve

37:37

and change and retcon quite a lot when they first appear as Jadzia Dax in

37:42

the first episode of Deep Space Nine.

37:45

Kevin: Yeah, it's fascinating that it's remarked upon less.

37:48

I don't hear fans like decrying, when are you gonna explain the Trill?

37:53

But when you go back and watch that episode, like the actor has a

37:57

very prominent forehead appliance on, and I believe it's established

38:01

they can't use the transporter because of the symbiont relationship

38:06

Rob: Yep. So basically in this episode there's Odan, who's the Trill.

38:10

They're very mysterious species. We don't know much about them.

38:13

He's an ambassador brought in and his father helped broker this peace deal

38:18

years ago between these two colonies on on a sister planet of this race.

38:24

Odan is very much against transporters despite the fact that would be safer

38:28

to get him onto the surface of the planet because taking transports,

38:31

they're susceptible to intercepting ships and all that type of stuff.

38:34

It's during the course of that they're attacked going down

38:37

the runabout with a Riker. Riker's in this a lot.

38:40

Riker is putting himself on the line a lot.

38:43

And Odan reveals that they can't do any surgery on him because there's

38:46

some sort of parasitic thing within him and going, no, that is Odan.

38:50

Kevin: By this point in the story, he and Beverly Crusher have got a thing going on

38:55

Rob: Yes, they've been seeing each other for a little bit, it appears.

38:58

And so there's a weird awkward it's awkward.

39:00

It's like seeing your parents flirting Kevin: For some reason it is often awkward when Beverly Crusher

39:05

falls in love with someone. We, I don't think we have yet seen the non awkward version of

39:10

Rob: I was just grateful it wasn't a ghost.

39:13

Kevin: Yeah, that's right. Rob: But the scene in the turbolift where Odan and Beverly are there talking and

39:18

Data, oh Data not being able to read the room going let's do all this work now.

39:22

And they're trying to go let's get the kid away so we can have some fun.

39:25

Anyway Beverly does not know about the Trill having the symbian inside and falls

39:31

in love with Odan, but Odan isn't really Kevin: No one knows it.

39:34

You get the sense it's a bit of a secret, like speaking of, we

39:38

don't discuss it with outsiders. That is the sense you get about the trill is that it is secret

39:43

information that they are carrying a symbiont around inside themselves.

39:47

Rob: And this is where, yeah. So the first big thing is the Trill has the usual Star Trek heightened forehead

39:53

things on their front as opposed to the beautiful dots that appear on, uh,

39:57

Kevin: no dots. There's Rob: No dots. And and then we find out that unlike how it evolves in Deep Space Nine,

40:05

where the personality of the host is primary and they keep the memories

40:10

within the symbiont as well, in this, the hosts are just shells.

40:15

And as soon as Riker offers to be the human that Riker is gone.

40:21

Yes. And there was a moment where Odan in Riker's body is talking to Picard,

40:27

and he says a line, Riker says a line of reassurance, and Picard

40:32

goes, you reminded me of Will Riker then and Odan almost is insulted.

40:37

Kevin: Yeah, Rob: that it's and though, right?

40:40

And it's very binary.

40:42

It's very old school right at the end where it's agonizingly

40:47

hetero in its description. Right at the end, Beverly goes, oh, it's the new host here.

40:53

And Worf goes, yes. She goes, bring him in.

40:55

And Worf goes, uh, and turns around and the new host's a woman.

41:00

Kevin: Yeah. Look, I don't know if, if I am wrong about this, if I still need to evolve on

41:06

this, but I can still see a truthful human story In that twist that I think is not

41:15

unkind to Beverly Crusher as a character.

41:18

I can believe that someone, the way they experience love is somewhat affected by

41:25

the physicality the physical gender of the person you are falling in love with.

41:31

And I, I could see it feels interesting to me, it is at least a shade of gray

41:36

for Beverly Crusher to go, I want to go there, but I can't, I am not, I

41:41

am not flexible enough to go there. Rob: She said, I'm not ready.

41:44

I'm not evolved yet. That's, it's beautifully written.

41:48

But it's, she's more than happy to, succumb to her love if it's gorgeous

41:52

Jonathan Flakes and his beard. But yes the thing that cuz I, my first in introduction with the

41:58

Twill was in Deep Space Nine. So I am used to that, and it's quite well explained in last week's episode

42:04

we talked about Dax, where they explain the Symbiont and update it really.

42:08

And I like the idea of the new host, their personality is crucial.

42:15

And I'd watching the Host with NextGen, I felt uncomfortable at even the

42:21

actress who came in at the end to be the host was pretty much just playing

42:24

it blank, like they had no personality.

42:28

Kevin: Empty husk reporting for duty. And it was meant to be that way.

42:33

As a one-off alien of the week, it was meant to be challenging

42:37

in that way that this, to our human sensibilities seems immoral.

42:43

And yet a truly alien species would probably be immoral in

42:48

some, in, in numerous ways. And so we are challenged by that.

42:52

And that challenge is interesting. But if you're then going to create a character that we are meant to embrace

42:58

emotionally week to week and invest in, you want to strike a different

43:02

balance there, which is why I think it did need to evolve for Jadzia Dax.

43:07

The question is, is the change too much for you as a fan?

43:11

Does it bother you that these two iterations of the Trill are so different?

43:15

But we are asked to accept that they are the same.

43:18

Rob: No. Cuz I can see how things evolve.

43:20

It's and anytime creators of shows have too much control to go back

43:24

and explain it, doesn't always work, as we've talked about.

43:27

And it's happened in other franchises as well.

43:30

Kevin: If we could do it all again, my advice in hindsight would be come up with

43:35

a different name for Jadzia's species.

43:38

Make the, make it another symbiont species that is different.

43:42

It's the Troll, not the Trill, whatever it is.

43:45

That I think the the connection to NextGen canon did not give us

43:49

enough that it was worth doing that.

43:52

And I suspect in hindsight, that's what would've been the choice.

43:55

But it's so easy to say in hindsight. Rob: And especially evolved as well the nature of the Trill and even the nature

44:02

of Jadzia, like even what we saw in episode eight, Terry Farrell's doing a

44:05

great job, but she's still playing it. How they originally thought: play her as this noble, honorable, a young

44:12

woman beyond her years type stuff.

44:15

And then as they evolved, they went, let's bring a bit of Terry Farrell into this.

44:20

Let's make Jadzia wise-cracking and fun loving and, likes to drink and gamble, and

44:25

has a personality as opposed to playing the noble sage in a young person's body.

44:31

Let's have all that noble sage experience, but in, a young person living and

44:37

that's where Jadzia really takes off.

44:40

The word Symbiont for me is a collaboration.

44:43

And whereas in Host it's very much a case of the host is a husk and it

44:47

is very alien and I accept that for what it is from what you said as well.

44:51

But I love that cohabitation and that working together and how the host and the

44:58

Symbiont work as one and the Dax stays.

45:02

So the Dax is the symbiont, but then the name of each of them.

45:05

I love that culture. I love how that evolved and it became alien.

45:10

But it, and it became this unifying type of presence, which I really dug

45:15

in later episodes, which they carried on with one of the few episodes of

45:18

Discovery I liked with the Trill character Kevin: Forget Me Not, with the introduction of Adira.

45:24

Kudos to Discovery for not falling like into that trap of, oh, we want to have

45:28

a Trill character, but there's this open question about the Trill, so we're gonna

45:31

spend two episodes explaining it to death.

45:34

I'm glad they didn't do that. Like the, the approach they're taking with the Trill still feels like in,

45:40

in that it's just a TV show territory.

45:43

Rob: It was beautiful in that Discovery one, how she stands there

45:46

with all her previous hosts around her, and they kind of unified and

45:50

shared this experience together. They never really did that within Deep Space Nine.

45:54

You had, obviously the personalities in that episode come through each of the

45:59

crew of Deep Space Nine inhabited it.

46:01

So, yeah, Nana Vista plays an old format of it, and she's like an old nana.

46:05

And the serial killer appears in, I think it was Avery Brooks's in Sisko's body.

46:12

Anyway, that type of stuff I like those extensions of the Trill species cuz

46:16

they're, like I talked about last week, there's a lot of connections to Doctor

46:19

who within the justification of it and but more of a Star Trek kind of way.

46:23

And I've always got a soft spot for the Trill. Kevin: At the end of the day, there are surprisingly few of these

46:30

surviving inconsistencies in Star Trek.

46:33

These things occasionally rise to the surface.

46:35

I think like warp 10 and like warp 10 is this barrier that we can't go across.

46:41

And if you go at warp 10, you're at every point in the universe at once and Voyager

46:46

to its peril, attempted to tell a story inspired by that seeming inconsistency.

46:51

But mostly Star Trek's done a pretty good job of not contradicting itself

46:56

over the years, and even when it does not getting too distracted by it.

47:00

Rob: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, this has been a good exploration of of those type of recons and where

47:06

they work and where they don't. Kevin: All right. I'll see you next week until then, see you around the galaxy, Rob.