0:09

Kevin: Hello and welcome back to Subspace Radio.

0:12

It's me, Kevin. Rob: And I'm Rob. Kevin: And we are here to talk about season two, episode five

0:17

of Strange New Worlds: Charades.

0:20

Rob: We certainly are. Now, this episode has caused a little bit of controversy, a little bit of bruhaha.

0:26

Kevin: Has it now? Rob: Yeah. Yeah. There's been,

0:28

Kevin: I'm still traveling, so I am off the grid.

0:31

I have not caught the bruhaha about this episode.

0:34

Rob: Either been absolutely adored or there's Star Trek

0:37

fans going, it's far too silly. So it is most definitely, it's most definitely a comedy focused episode

0:43

with a bit of heart kicker at the end.

0:46

Kevin: Yeah. Big time. Rob: Me personally, I had a great time with this episode.

0:49

I thought it was a lot of fun and I really embraced the fun of it.

0:53

What about you, Kev? Kevin: Me too. I think I've said before that I don't mind some comedy in my Star Trek,

0:58

as long as it stands out as special.

1:01

And one all out comedy episode a season for Strange New Worlds is, that is

1:06

perfectly permissible, and in fact, I'd be disappointed if we didn't get it.

1:10

I am still a little worried that we've got a Lower Decks crossover to

1:14

look forward to later this season. So it, it might be a little high on the comedy content, but judged on its

1:21

own merits, this episode lit me up.

1:23

I loved it. Rob: It really had a strong kick at the end, a really strong

1:27

emotional kick at the end. Kevin: It was more than the sum of its parts, this episode for me,

1:32

because of the strong execution.

1:34

Like when you stand back and you look at some of the shuttle wormhole stuff

1:42

and it, it maybe some of those story beats maybe don't stand up to scrutiny

1:48

entirely, that there was this big anomaly on a moon right near Vulcan that for

1:53

some reason the Enterprise was called in to explore it with a shuttle craft.

1:58

It's all a little vague and unclear.

2:01

and it kind of has to be that because I feel like it

2:05

wouldn't make sense otherwise. So they're asking us to go along with them for the strength of the story,

2:10

and I was completely willing to go along with it because of the strength

2:14

of the performances and, and as always what it did for our characters.

2:19

Rob: Yes. If the species that they came across only called when we identified them,

2:23

they were yellow and blue and there were multiple other beings there.

2:27

They were very transactional in their almost god-like powers.

2:31

And it very much reminded me of a Doctor Who story from first season with

2:34

Christopher Eccleston called The Empty Child and The Doctor Dances, a two-parter.

2:38

It's one of the greatest episodes ever. And in that, it's nanobot technology that doesn't really understand the human form.

2:47

And so when it heals people, cause they're from a medical ship, they heal

2:51

them in the only example they have. So they cause these hideous, grotesque mutations, but they

2:57

don't have a point of reference. So it's that cold, logical thing.

3:01

And that came across in this episode because the big twist in this episode

3:06

is that these omnipotent beings turn Spock dun, dun, dun, human.

3:13

Kevin: Yeah. And as he sat up from the bed, I, first of all I'm hearing some folks

3:18

out there knew this story was coming.

3:21

I did not know this story was coming, so when he sat up human,

3:23

I was like, Oh, of course.

3:25

This is going to be a hijinks episode, very similar to Spock Amok

3:31

last season where Spock and T'Pring

3:33

Rob: swap bodies Kevin: personalities, the body swap episode, and great

3:38

hilarity came out of it. Basically in the first 30 seconds of Spock being human, you could see what

3:43

they were going for and it was laughs.

3:46

Rob: Oh, and yeah. The mere fact that they cut to the opening credits with him

3:49

going, what the f---, I went.

3:52

And now I know how you felt about Data in Generations going, Whoa, shit.

3:58

Kevin: Yeah. Rob: you find the WTF moment for Spock, here?

4:02

Kevin: L look, I moved past it, let's put it that way.

4:05

I think in the moment I chuckled and rolled my eyes and went,

4:08

okay, I'll give you that one. There better be a good story coming here.

4:11

And there was, there was. I feel like something that's interesting about this episode is

4:16

that a lot of the comedy serves to disarm us for the emotional

4:20

gut punches that come towards the Rob: There are some really big gut punches here, Kevin and I really am there for it.

4:26

Can I just say it is great to have Mia Kirshner back, as Amanda Grayson?

4:32

She appeared in Discovery. And as a man of 45 years old who grew up in the eighties and nineties and

4:39

a hot blooded heterosexual male, I was very familiar with Mia's work.

4:44

She is incredible, an incredible actress, and she was this darling of the

4:49

independent theater scene in the nineties. She did an incredible Canadian film, Exotica.

4:54

She did Unidentified Human Remains and The True Nature of

4:56

Love, the film version of that. She was in The Crow too.

4:59

Horrible film, but she was amazing. She did The L Word.

5:02

She was this like really powerful, talented, deep,

5:09

sexy actress in the nineties.

5:11

And she got lost in the system and for her to come back, and in typical Star Trek

5:16

fashion when, Zachary Quinto's mum in the movies is Winona Rider, they bring in Mia,

5:22

who's only 10 years older than Ethan Peck.

5:25

But to have her back in a substantial role, as opposed to just in a couple

5:28

of flashbacks, or exposition scenes, and she knocked it outta the park.

5:32

She had some heavy lifting to do and her and Ethan Peck have such great chemistry.

5:36

It was wonderful to see. Kevin: Indeed. Yeah, I also, we're gonna talk about this in a little bit, but I had an

5:42

opportunity to revisit the original actor who played Amanda Grayson, Jane

5:47

Wyatt, back in the original series. And having just seen our modern incarnation of Amanda going back

5:53

and seeing Jane Wyatt the casting done here was actually remarkable.

5:57

There is a uncanny likeness, like she could be Jane Wyatt minus 20 years, and

6:04

there's just something about the smile and the eyes that is instantly connects

6:08

the two and perhaps more than any other legacy character, let's say, or character

6:14

that is carried from back in the sixties and then into modern Star Trek, I feel

6:19

like the casting is pitch perfect here. I don't have to.

6:23

Go along with a change of look.

6:26

Even in Pike's case, I feel like Anson Mount, I'm happy to have him on board

6:32

because he's such an amazing actor. I don't quite buy him as Jeffrey Hunter minus 10 years.

6:37

But Amanda Grayson here, they could be the same person.

6:41

Rob: Yeah. And there's lovely little touches because we talked about Star Trek IV The Voyage

6:45

Home, and and the original actress coming back to do her opening scene

6:49

with Spock when he's finding his memory. But the connection here is, in this episode, this is Spock right in the middle

6:56

of his lack of communication with his dad.

6:59

Sarek is so disappointed in him joining Starfleet.

7:03

He's not even talking to his son at this point.

7:05

And that really tears up the family.

7:08

And when you cut ahead, you have to go ahead however many decades that

7:12

finally in the final scene of Star Trek IV, at the end he goes, If I recall,

7:18

I was not happy with your decision to Starfleet, and that was wrong.

7:21

And then the two of them bond. And I'm there going, that's decades.

7:25

That's 20, 30 years in the making and we're at the point where

7:28

they're not talking at all. It's really powerful stuff and it's really beautifully done, and especially

7:34

Ethan Peck's performance and Mia's performance, to go back to when he talked

7:40

to her about what she sacrificed as a mother so that he could be, you know,

7:46

the son that you know that she want. It's just powerful stuff.

7:50

It's really good work. Actors at the top of their form.

7:55

Kevin: Yeah. A canon connection that you might have missed is at the very beginning,

8:01

Chapel is reciting the things that she's memorizing for her interview

8:06

with the Vulcan Science program. And she's reciting Korby's three laws of xenobiology or something like that.

8:15

Korby is a very important name in Christine Chapel canon.

8:19

One of the very few things we find out about Christine Chapel in original

8:23

series, apart from she's head over heels for Spock in unrequited love is that

8:29

she has a previous re relationship with Roger Korby, who is a xenoarcheologist

8:34

who disappeared and they in the episode, I believe it's called, What Are Little

8:39

Girls Made Of?, they rediscover Roger Korby, who turns out to have been

8:43

killed and replaced by Androids. Rob: Of course.

8:46

Okay. There's that sci-fi twist where they go, what is it?

8:48

What is it? Ah, of course, pesky androids.

8:52

Kevin: I will never forget the scar that was left on my psyche as a young

8:55

child of Roger Korby's scraped hand and like the skin flayed off of it to

9:00

reveal android workings underneath.

9:02

And him like holding his hand up to Christine going, it's just skin.

9:07

It's easily repairable, Christine. I'm still the man you loved.

9:11

Rob: Powerful stuff. Kevin: A great episode. Yeah.

9:14

Rob: Yeah. So in this particular episode, Spock, even though has been transformed

9:17

into human, there's problems at home.

9:20

T'Pring and him are coming up to their engagement ceremony that they need to

9:24

do an acceptance from T'Pring's family.

9:27

We have her family arrive on the ship because they can't make their

9:30

way back to Vulcan for the ceremony because of the humanization of Spock.

9:35

We have Amanda show up. We have.

9:38

We have Pike offer his room as the ceremonial place, and he's catering.

9:44

He's catering for the whole event. Kevin: He cooks.

9:47

Rob: He's cooking for everybody, supplying drinks.

9:49

Anson Mount is in comedy fine form here.

9:53

His double takes. Kevin: And also playing straight man to Spock in the bacon scene.

9:58

Rob: Yes, straight man there. But then he could flip it around.

10:00

So when Spock, then being the straight man Anson Mount can be

10:04

the funny one who's walking in with a tray and going, oh, let's just

10:07

move off here in an awkward way. Having a double take as he takes a shot of alcohol.

10:11

Love it. Kevin: How great is T'Pring's dad?

10:15

That's a father-in-law. I want. Rob: Yeah. There is not a mother-in-law I want, but there is definitely a father-in-law.

10:22

Kevin: You take, the one with the other. Rob: Yeah, you can.

10:24

I don't think you could have one without the other.

10:26

Great moments for me. Great to have Sam Kirk back being the unaware he's gotta read the room

10:32

better, and getting terrified by a human Spock threatening to, to end him.

10:39

Kevin: Over crumbs. Yeah. Rob: And in the background, they had a picture of Jonathan Archer's Enterprise.

10:43

Kevin: Oh really? I didn't catch that. Very good.

10:46

Rob: And, Spock in a beanie. Spock in a Federation issued beanie really leaning into

10:50

that adolescent version of him. Kevin: That's probably the biggest laugh I got this entire episode was

10:56

then he came in the beanie, I lost it and then he said It's regulation.

11:00

And Pike says, I have one just like it myself.

11:03

And I was dead.

11:06

So good. Rob: Yeah, so it all came to a head with Spock standing up for his mother.

11:11

And and the reveal that, oh, yeah, you know the stepmother, they're saying that

11:16

despite your faults, your human side, you were able to do this ceremony perfectly.

11:21

And he goes actually, I've been human the whole time and it

11:23

makes me stronger, not weaker. And his connection about his mother is beautifully done.

11:29

But at the end, it's really interesting cuz like our first shenanigans episode

11:34

was the body swap and that brought T'Pring and Spock closer together.

11:39

And another shenanigans episode used for T'Pring and Spock having some time apart.

11:44

I mean, Obviously we know this is a doomed relationship anyway, but it's amazing

11:49

how, to deal with these Vulcan emotional journeys, we put them in shenanigans.

11:54

Kevin: I'm sure we have not seen the last of T'Pring not least

11:57

because that actor is amazing.

11:59

Rob: She's incredible. Incredible. Kevin: She elevates every episode that she comes in.

12:03

And that costume, woo, the outfit that she and her mother-in-law argued about

12:07

for three hours, I don't, I'm gonna say it was worth it because she looked amazing.

12:11

Rob: And I think Ethan Peck said something about it was really good,

12:13

or he said, he made a comment about how good it was, and I'm, they're

12:16

going, I'm right there with you. Kevin: But yes, I'm sure we'll see her again.

12:19

We've got the dangling thread of Sybok in the rehabilitation clinic for Vulcans.

12:24

So I'm sure we'll see T'Pring in that context if no other, but it was notable

12:29

to me that the way this episode leaves off Spock and T'Pring could roll

12:35

right into the original series, now. If the next thing we saw of T'Pring was Spock doing one of his

12:41

awkward family reveals where it's like, oh yeah, that's my wife.

12:45

You never told us you had a wife. Like that, 5, 10 years from now is perfectly believable as a next beat.

12:52

Like Spock is emotionally unaware enough that he could let it fester in this

12:58

state for 10 years until he is forced to fight for his wife, as it were,

13:03

in Amok Time in the original series.

13:06

But I'm sure we, we have more to see of T'Pring and Spock.

13:09

Rob: I was a little bit disappointed with the appearance of Amanda Grayson and that

13:13

tantalizing hint of her knowing Pelia that we didn't have Carol Kane in the episode.

13:19

Hopefully that is a payoff we get to see with Pelia investing so much going,

13:25

Kevin: Yeah. It was awkward, isn't it? That they they went out of their way to set up Pelia for no reason that we know

13:30

of yet is a friend of Spock's mother's, and then Spock's mother appears and it's

13:35

okay, we're gonna get that payoff right? And they say, no, not this week.

13:38

Sorry. Rob: This is one of the episodes where Carol Kane isn't in it, and it

13:42

was, yeah I was looking out for that.

13:45

I was hoping for that. And of course the big reveal at the end is that Chapel and Spock,

13:51

Kevin: Oh, such a great buildup to like, um, that was quite a kiss,

13:57

Rob: Look, look, we have done, I have, I fought for most of our last season to do

14:03

an episode fully focused on sex, Kevin.

14:06

You finally submitted and allowed us to do one episode and the, it was hot.

14:12

It was incredibly Kevin: proves that you don't need to go to the sex in order

14:16

to make it hot on Star Trek. This was, this was some steamy stuff.

14:20

The scene before where Chapel comes with the cure and Spock is about to confess

14:24

his feelings, and she just goes, Nope. Stabs you in the neck.

14:27

And then walks out like in tears. When she walks out this is like a recurring motif in, in Strange New Worlds

14:34

now, where the shot either begins or ends in soft focus and the character

14:39

walks into focus rather than it.

14:42

Rather than her walking forward and them racking, like following her with

14:46

the focus, the camera is sitting there waiting until she is ready to enter

14:50

the frame and she, she steps forward and just the devastation on her face.

14:56

That feeling of it like coming into focus in front of us makes it that much more.

15:00

Just so much going on there of the story, working, the acting, working and the

15:05

camera work, working to make us really feel that moment that makes the next

15:10

one where they finally kiss in Spock's quarters feel that much more elated.

15:16

Rob: It's really, it's, oh, we've spoken a lot about Spock in this,

15:19

but it's a very much a Chapel episode as well and her emotional journey.

15:23

She's, they've really added so many layers to Nurse Chapel as a character.

15:27

She's complex. She's not someone you, you know, completely see as infallible.

15:32

She's got so many faults and problems and issues, but it never gets in

15:36

the way of her doing a great job. And she's true to herself and she went through a lot this time.

15:41

Kevin: I've had my doubts about Jess Bush's ability to

15:45

add to the legacy of Majel Barrett-Roddenberry in, in this role.

15:49

But Long ago now she sold me, and now I am just like so glad we still have her.

15:55

In this episode, when they fly into the blue funnel and there are, are standing

15:59

in the trans-dimensional space arguing over whether their complaint period has

16:05

expired or not, and whether uh, friends are allowed to make complaints, that

16:10

moment where Chapel is standing face to face with nothing and needs to confess

16:16

her feelings in order to save Spock.

16:19

I was like watching it as two people.

16:21

On the one hand, I was watching it from the outside going, this is such

16:26

a sci-fi setup, of five unbelievable things have happened in short succession

16:32

here in order to force a character to confess out loud for the benefit of

16:37

the audience, feelings that we might not otherwise get to hear out loud.

16:42

It beggars belief. But at the same time I was like, say it.

16:46

Just say it, Christine. You know it to be true.

16:49

Rob: You were there with Uhura and Ortegas and they're just going, dude, just say it.

16:53

All right? We all know it, okay? Just say it.

16:55

But like Alice says, in in Through the Looking Glass, I like to believe in

16:59

three impossible things before breakfast. In Star Trek: Strange New Worlds, I like to believe five impossible things before

17:04

we have Chapel confess her love for Spock.

17:08

And then the payoff at the end when she's rejected by the Vulcan

17:11

special program she wants to go in.

17:13

And he goes, okay, I'll just have to write about it myself about this

17:17

encounter with this omnipotent being.

17:19

And they go what was that? He goes, just read it in my paper.

17:21

Boom. Take that Vulcans. Just like Spock says, Vulcans are jerks.

17:26

Kevin: Vulcans can be such jerks, he says.

17:30

And that is the theme we decided to carry with us into Star Trek

17:33

history today, Vulcans being jerks.

17:37

and so Rob, what did you find? I've got a couple of things we could go to here.

17:42

I've got some Enterprise, Rob: Yes. Kevin: got some original series.

17:46

Rob: I went Enterprise. I've gone on a Enterprise bender the last couple of weeks and I wanted

17:50

to stay down that, and of course

17:52

Kevin: I thought for sure you would take us to Deep Space Nine on this one.

17:56

Rob: I was look, I, because of the the recent sad, tragic news of the

18:01

passing of showrunner of season four of Enterprise, Manny Coto, recently

18:05

passing away with pancreatic cancer.

18:08

We send out sympathy and well wishes to him and his family.

18:11

What an incredible legacy with Star Trek. And he doesn't really get the focus that he should.

18:15

I mean, I wasn't aware of him until quite recently, and so I find it quite

18:20

heartbreaking that I've only just discovered the impact he had on Star Trek.

18:23

And to have that taken away, he was such a important part of finding the

18:28

voice and shape of Enterprise, which was really lost for quite some time.

18:32

So yeah, I went down the rabbit hole of Enterprise for this one.

18:36

Kevin: Absolutely, I'm right there with you. I, I watched a bit of season four Enterprise myself this week.

18:41

Uh, you wanna, You wanna intro it for our audience, Rob?

18:44

Rob: Yes. I focused on the three part story as they do in season four.

18:48

To cut back on money, they did a lot of multi episode stories.

18:52

How very Doctor Who. And we're looking at the three part story, The Forge, Awakening and Kir'Shara.

18:59

So this is tying up a lot of loose ends that have been going

19:03

in the previous three seasons. It starts at the Vulcan Embassy with the Admiral and one of the representatives

19:08

from Vulcan talking about the Starfleet and are Earth ready and wanting to

19:13

go on into adventures on their own without being like babysat by the

19:18

Vulcans, which they've been doing pretty much since first contact.

19:21

And tension back and forth until there's a hit, an explosion where the admiral

19:26

is killed, close friend of Archer. And the the delegate from Vulcan has been saved by the Admiral's sacrifice.

19:34

And that takes us down a massive three-part adventure, which I think

19:37

is probably a little bit too long. Three parts is probably, outstayed their welcome a bit.

19:42

But it goes through who caused this explosion.

19:45

There's the High Council of Vulcan, who seemed to be intent on blaming it

19:50

on a dissident faction of the Vulcans.

19:53

Kevin: The Syrannites. Rob: Syrannites and also blaming the Andorians, to lead into, which we find

19:59

out is a massive conspiracy that's actually the overseer of the Council,

20:04

his overriding mission to take down the Andorian people and rule Vulcan.

20:09

And while there's a subplot of trying to find these hidden scrolls, that from

20:14

one of the first prophets of Vulcan

20:16

Kevin: Yeah. Rob: From 1800 years ago. Kevin: The original writings of Surak who was, who led in the time of enlightenment

20:23

where Vulcans discovered logic.

20:25

Rob: So it's a great episode that really showed the many layers of

20:28

the Vulcan culture as opposed to just robotic emotionless beings.

20:32

A race isn't defined by a stereotype.

20:34

It is, it is layered and multifaceted.

20:38

Kevin: Talk to me about Vulcans being jerks in this three parter.

20:41

Rob: It's very much, there's a ruthless, cold-hearted nature to

20:45

the Council, especially uh, V'Las is the main source behind it.

20:48

He has his own spy network, an old network that are loyal to him, willing to do

20:52

whatever it takes and to kill whoever they need to so that Vulcan can become

20:57

the mighty power that he wants it to be. The Enterprise is shot at, nearly blown up.

21:02

We have camps where the Syrannites are located are bombed,

21:07

like blanket, carpet bombed. And the infighting within the Vulcan culture about how much emotion to

21:14

express, what is not expressed. We have T'Pol is having problems with her emotions, big surprise there when

21:20

with her run-in with her mum, played by the wonderful Joanna Cassidy, who we

21:25

all know from Blade Runner, and she was originally up for the role of Janeway.

21:28

Kevin: Of course, I didn't realize who, what I recognized her from.

21:32

Rob: So there's a lot going on here. Archer gets the Katra of the leader of the rebellion inside

21:39

his brain, which leads him into the brain of the original prophet.

21:43

There's a lot of levels there. Basically it's 2, 2, 2 and a half episodes of Archer walking

21:48

through the desert with T'Pol, and.

21:51

And a lot of machinations going on behind the scenes.

21:53

We have really a really weird over the top dramatic torture scene

21:58

with the Andorians and a Vulcan. But there's some good stuff in there about adding layers to the Vulcan culture

22:05

and how it can go extreme and it can go into quite nefarious and deadly areas.

22:12

Kevin: As I've read in hindsight this three parter was crafted no doubt with

22:18

great input from the late, great Manny Coto, to address a question that was

22:23

planted in fans' minds by the first three seasons of Enterprise, which

22:28

is why are these Vulcans such jerks?

22:31

From the very first episode, Broken Bow where Archer decides to take their

22:36

Warp Five ship, the Enterprise on its first mission ahead of schedule,

22:40

the Vulcans are naysaying the entire way going, no, it's too early.

22:44

You shouldn't go. You're gonna make a mess out there.

22:47

You don't know what you're gonna stumble into. Throughout the first seasons of Enterprise, the Vulcans are constantly

22:54

patronizing overseers, puppet masters, a controlling influence on Earth's

23:02

exploration out into the galaxy.

23:05

And as I've read, fans at the time took exception to this, that before

23:11

this, what we knew of Vulcans is that generally they were genial types

23:16

who, served as a first officer of a starship or worked with B'Elanna

23:21

Torres in engineering and generally they were at worst, harmless nerds.

23:27

At best, they were our favorite characters in the series in which

23:31

they appeared in Spock's case. And suddenly, here in Enterprise, the Vulcans are basically the antagonists.

23:40

They are pushing back against everything our protagonists are trying

23:44

to do, questioning it, undermining it, predicting their downfall and

23:50

causing us to second guess ourselves. And fans were upset that color was used to paint the brush of Vulcan society.

23:59

And here in this three parter in season four, Manny Koto

24:03

said there's a reason for that. And let me tell you this story.

24:07

Vulcan had lost its way. And this, the High Council revealed in the final moments of that third episode

24:14

having an influence of the Romulans behind the scenes, leading them astray.

24:20

V'Las, the puppet master is Emperor Palpatine level evil.

24:25

By the end, he's shouting at people and holding people at gunpoint and snarling

24:31

orders into the comms over a table that shows the moving forces on a map

24:36

that he is planning evil deeds with.

24:39

So they lean fully over the edge and go, these people are so evil,

24:44

there's no way for them to come back. And then it turns out the Syrannites who are the kind Vulcans, the logical Vulcans,

24:51

Rob: Pacifists. Kevin: the Vulcans who are still connected to the peaceful teachings of Surak,

24:56

they are the Vulcans that we know and love and led by T'Pau who incidentally,

25:02

speaking of Spock and T'Pring, oversees Spock and T'Pring's severance

25:08

of their nuptial vows in Amok Time.

25:11

She's the crotchety old lady in the throne that gets carried in by servants.

25:15

Rob: She looked really good in Enterprise. Kevin: She did quite, a bit better.

25:18

The way like they were paying attention to detail everywhere they could, even on

25:23

a shoestring budget, here in season four.

25:25

The way she does a mind meld on Archer with a very distinctive,

25:29

like finger hooked under the chin.

25:32

That is exactly how T'Pau did it in Amok Time.

25:36

And it was like, wow, she is a stern Vulcan.

25:38

She gives the painful mind melds.

25:41

She gives the mind melds you don't wanna get. Rob: I did notice that I was there going, she's doing it a very

25:46

unique way because it's normally just on the front of the face.

25:49

And to have that tie in, that's very good work.

25:52

Tip of the hat to Manny Coto for getting that in there.

25:55

Yeah. And some interesting stuff that was connected to this week's episode of

25:59

Strange New Worlds, it sounds silly saying it out loud, but it makes sense

26:02

in the show, the nasal suppressants.

26:06

Kevin: Yes, yes, Yes indeed. Well established by Enterprise and T'Pol.

26:10

Rob: Because human beings are so pungent in their smell that Vulcans

26:15

need to learn how to literally suppress their smell so they aren't

26:19

just disgusted with that human stench.

26:23

And that was brought back in with Kevin: line, speaking of Strange New Worlds making Star Trek better in

26:29

hindsight, that is something like that element that T'Pol was holding

26:34

her nose every day she served on Enterprise in that series at the time,

26:39

like that never really played for me. Like they established it and it just made me uncomfortable because

26:44

I watched every episode going, she's got, she's having a terrible time.

26:48

She either, is smelling these humans that she can't stand or she's

26:53

taking nasal suppressants so she can't smell or taste anything.

26:56

It was it was uncomfortable.

26:58

I think it was there to establish her alienness in some way, or to establish

27:03

her early at the start of her arc that she almost literally looked down

27:07

her nose at humanity, but by the end was choosing to, to be a member of

27:13

Starfleet and a member of that crew. Like I can see what they were going for there, but in reality it just

27:19

made me uncomfortable for her because I was like, yeah, on your best

27:23

day, everything reeks at your work.

27:26

Rob: Oh. Kevin: And so there was never a moment in Enterprise where I was

27:32

like, oh yeah that's a payoff. I enjoy that, now.

27:35

But here in one line, Spock, he smells his armpits and goes, do I smell more human?

27:41

And I laughed for, I laughed for, all of that set up in of

27:46

Enterprise, like suddenly all of that paid off in that one moment of

27:50

Ethan Peck smelling his underarms. And I was like, it's better.

27:53

It's now better than it was. Rob: I totally agree.

27:56

So yeah, I focused on those episodes.

27:58

I really they added more to the canon of Star Trek and just definitely to the

28:03

Vulcans, they needed to go through this to get to the species we all know and

28:07

love in the original series, which is as we know, a hundred years from now.

28:13

Kevin: So what this series of episodes did, there are few versions

28:17

of Vulcans are jerks in my mind.

28:19

One is here, Vulcans are jerks because they have lost their way,

28:25

forgotten the teachings of Surak. They're power hungry, fear driven, Romulan influenced, evil villains.

28:34

That's one version of Vulcans being jerks.

28:36

But there's a bit of a second version, which is the Vulcans are racist jerks.

28:42

And that even in the Syrannites here, where T'Pau says she's

28:47

going to do the ritual to extract Surak's Katra from Captain Archer,

28:52

whether he agrees to it or not.

28:56

And she is not about to let the future of her people be at risk for the life of one

29:02

human, she says with a, like revulsion.

29:05

Even our good Vulcans here, in Enterprise, they look down on humanity.

29:11

They, they see them as lesser.

29:14

And that is something that is the color I think that is strongest in Vulcans

29:19

are jerks this week in Charades. That you get the strong sense, although it is never said out loud that Chapel

29:26

is being rejected not for her skills or for the fact that she paraphrased

29:30

Korby's rules of Xenoarcheology.

29:34

She's being rejected because she's human and Vulcans are racist.

29:39

Rob: Yeah, and you definitely see that, how is it for Amanda Grayson living in a

29:44

culture that hates her and they hate her purely just because of, that she's human,

29:50

not for anything about her as a person.

29:52

And in, in that episode Charades in the episode we just did, they

29:56

are outwardly racist to her, like the undermining comments.

30:00

It's not like out and saying we hate you, because that's not what racists do.

30:04

But just the turn of phrase, the slight, emphasis on a certain word or implying

30:10

things, it was just, hits so much deeper.

30:13

And it is, you can see it's a racist culture.

30:15

And the third point to you is they can be this way, they can be racist, or they can

30:21

be, just really good baseball players and and treat the other team like, inferiors.

30:27

Kevin: If you weren't gonna say it, I was, Rob.

30:29

Why don't you take us out to the holosuite for a second and remind us

30:32

of what happened to Benjamin Sisko. Rob: Yes.

30:35

So it is an episode that we have focused on before when we did

30:38

do I think it was oh, break. Yeah, it was episodes that it was either holodeck episodes or it was

30:43

an episode talking about changing the palette when it's all a bit harsh.

30:47

Anyway it's basically an excuse for Sisko to finally play some

30:50

baseball or be involved in a baseball game cause he loves it so much.

30:53

He has a run in with a former colleague within the Federation who is of

30:58

course a, a Vulcan who say we're stronger, we're faster, we're better,

31:02

and we can beat you in anything. Kevin: This is Captain Solok, in Take Me Out to the Holosuite, which is season

31:09

seven, episode four of Deep Space Nine.

31:11

Rob: So we're right at the pointy end of the Dominion War.

31:14

This captain runs a ship only with Vulcans, the entire crew is Vulcans.

31:19

And so they challenge there, there was a challenge for a baseball game where

31:23

despite the fact that Vulcans are more intelligent, faster, and better athletes

31:30

the ragtag band of Deep Space Niners get together and with their heart, with their

31:36

heart, Kevin, they give Rom a go and Rom even though they don't win the game,

31:43

they win the spirit of what's important.

31:45

The winner today was baseball. Kevin: They score one point and celebrate and Captain Solok's like you

31:52

manufactured victory where none existed and this, you're right, to me, is a

31:57

third version of Vulcans being jerks.

32:01

Whereas Vulcans can just be too serious, man.

32:04

They can be implacable, unfazable.

32:08

There is a sense that they will never admit they are wrong.

32:13

They will instead bend logic to their needs to prove themselves right, even

32:17

when they are otherwise in the wrong.

32:20

And that version of Vulcans being jerks, Vulcans not admitting when they're wrong.

32:25

Is like a strong one. Rob: And how they get easily frustrated by human behavior to the point where,

32:31

Sisko gets kicked out because he touches Odo, which you don't do,

32:35

you don't touch the ref, the umpire. And the Vulcan does the exact same thing and the joy on Odo's

32:41

face, he goes, You're outta here! But the Vulcans in this episode in particular look like more Vulcan.

32:48

They have a bit of makeup added in, so they're a bit paler,

32:52

a bit, a little bit greener. The all the hair is the same cut and design.

32:57

So when we go to Enterprise, we've got different hairstyles.

33:01

We've got the bowl cut, but we've also got the scraggly down hair,

33:04

the Anakin Skywalker haircut. But in take me out to the holosuite, they are definitely all uniform in

33:11

their appearance and more alien in Kevin: Yeah.

33:14

In service of the story, of Rob: Very much so.

33:17

So, yeah, I did get a little Deep, Space Nine in there no matter what.

33:19

Thank you. What about you? What's a Star Trek episode where Vulcans are such jerks?

33:25

Kevin: Look I saw these three versions that, that Vulcans can be jerks because

33:30

in Enterprise they lost their way.

33:32

They can be jerks because they're racist. They can be jerks because they are unfeeling monsters who

33:38

never admit they're wrong. And I was like, where does the all of this come from?

33:42

So reminded by the presence of Amanda and the conspicuous absence of Sarek

33:48

In this week's Strange New Worlds, I went back to Journey to Babel the

33:52

original series season two, episode 15, in which we meet Spock's parents.

33:58

This is an episode where the Enterprise is ferrying a bunch of delegates to

34:02

a meeting on a planet called Babel.

34:05

They're deciding whether a new applicant to the Federation will get

34:11

admission into the Federation or not.

34:13

And all of these delegates, Tellarites, Andorians, Vulcans, short men

34:18

painted gold, all sorts of aliens are onboard the Enterprise and they

34:23

all have strong different opinions.

34:25

One of the Tellarite delegation gets murdered in the hallways.

34:31

Captain Kirk gets attacked by a Andorian who turns out not

34:35

to be Andorian, he's a spy. But Kirk gets stabbed in the back in the hallway.

34:41

But against this backdrop of interstellar politics, the thing that has our greatest

34:46

attention is these two new characters visiting the ship, Amanda and Sarek,

34:51

who are introduced first as delegates.

34:53

And then when Kirk says Spock, while we're around Vulcan, did you wanna

34:57

beam down and visit your parents? And Spock goes, captain, these are my parents, the original awkward family

35:04

reveal from Spock that set the pattern for all future awkward family reveals.

35:09

Yeah. And it, it is in this one that it is established that Spock does,

35:14

has not spoken to his father. This is the episode that prevents Sarek from appearing in episodes

35:21

like Charades this week, in Strange New Worlds, canonically.

35:25

It's interesting what watching it this week, there was actually, the wording

35:29

is open to some some interpretation.

35:33

It is Amanda who says it is this disagreement that Sarek is upset

35:38

that Spock chose to leave the Vulcan Science Academy and apply to Starfleet

35:43

instead, dedicate himself to a career in Starfleet, it is this bad blood

35:48

that has quote prevented Spock and Sarek from speaking to each other

35:53

as father and son for eight years.

35:58

Rob: Let's get creative. Kevin: Now, speaking to each other as father and son is one thing.

36:04

So I think there is room if they wanted to have them appear on screen

36:07

together in a professional, forced, teeth gritting sort of capacity.

36:12

Rob: Wouldn't it be, wouldn't it be great to see that. James Frain plays Sarek in Discovery.

36:17

He's a wonderful character actor. He's been around for years doing a lot of sci-fi fantasy slash genre TV and stuff.

36:24

British actor moved to America. And his work with Michael in their scenes together was some

36:29

of the best stuff of Discovery. Kevin: Yeah, there, there is nothing that's wrong with that version of Sarek

36:34

that wasn't just wrong with Discovery.

36:37

Like all the problems I have with Sarek in Discovery are Discovery

36:40

story problems, not Sarek problems.

36:43

I would love to have him back. Rob: And that would be a great moment of tension to see that, a

36:47

father and son talking pure business and the family dynamic underneath.

36:53

Kevin: Absolutely. Looking back, this is that third version of Vulcans being jerks.

36:57

Both Spock and Sarek in Journey to Babel are doing that thing where they

37:03

neither of them is willing to admit they're wrong, and they both use

37:07

logic to justify their points of view.

37:10

And Amanda is caught between them. In this episode, Sarek in a foreshadowing of what we would see of him in The Next

37:18

Generation where he has that illness where like it's a degenerative mental illness

37:23

and he ends up mind melding with Picard in order to get through a negotiation,

37:28

and it is very powerful stuff. But way back here in his first appearance and only appearance in

37:34

the original series, Sarek is also stricken with an illness, in this

37:39

case it is a cardiac affliction. And the surgery to repair it requires vast amounts of Vulcan blood.

37:47

And Spock is the only person aboard who has compatible blood of course.

37:52

So it's that thing of will the son act as donor for his

37:56

estranged father to save his life.

37:59

Of course he will, but when Kirk gets injured, Spock assumes command

38:04

and says, look, I know my father's dying, but I'm in command here.

38:08

I'm not allowed to relinquish command just to save my father's life, so I'm gonna

38:13

be responsible and stay in this seat. That, that moment of pure rational logic of I am right,

38:21

you can't convince me I'm wrong. You just think I'm wrong because you are emotional.

38:25

That is basically what Spock says to his own mother, and she

38:28

slaps him in the face for it. So Spock is, along with just all the other Vulcans out there, Spock can be a jerk

38:36

at times too, and was right back here in Journey to Babel in the original series.

38:41

Rob: Awesome. Awesome stuff. Yes, obviously Mark Leonard impressed.

38:45

Long live the father of Spock.

38:48

And he came back and in the movies, Kevin: Much more memorable in the movies and in TNG I love Sarek, like

38:55

how much of him we got it, like it is so little but how much he did like

39:01

the lasting legacy of that character from so little I really admire.

39:07

Rob: Yeah, his work in the movies is incredible. That was my first taste of Mark Leonard and to bring him back from

39:12

the original series is outstanding and his work, especially in Star

39:17

Trek III and IV is wonderful.

39:19

Kevin: So yeah, there you go. There are many kinds of Vulcans being jerks.

39:23

They can be misled by Romulans. They can be space racists.

39:27

can be just unwilling to admit when they're wrong.

39:30

Rob: They just, they make baseball unfun.

39:35

So many layers to the Vulcans. Thank you so much for this little exploration into the

39:40

depth of Vulcan culture. Kevin: Thank you, Rob.

39:42

I enjoyed it a great deal. Rob: We are. We'll be back next week with another episode of Strange New Worlds.

39:47

We can't wait to see where that leads us to, and we're getting

39:50

closer and closer each week to the crossover we've all been wanting.

39:54

Kevin: See around the galaxy. Rob: We send a thought to Manny Coto's family.

39:58

And uh, stay strong actors and writers out there.

40:01

Kevin: Yeah, absolutely. We can wait for a little more Star Trek.

40:04

You make sure you're getting what you need to pay the bills in order to

40:07

make this show that we love so much.