0:09

Kevin: Hello and welcome to Subspace Radio.

0:11

It's me, Kev. Rob: And me Rob. Kevin: and we are here for a very special event.

0:18

Rob, it is the first ever musical episode of Star Trek.

0:23

Rob: Yes, Kevin, we have reached an episode we've been waiting for some time.

0:29

Kevin: And I cannot wait to break it down and see what else we want to talk about.

0:37

Rob: Dear listeners, we will not be singing the entire episode.

0:41

Kevin: Oh, sadly. Sadly. Rob: Sadly.

0:43

Yeah. Yep. Yeah. Drop that little nugget, that little hint of our musical talent.

0:49

Possibly we may do a musical episode of Subspace Radio down the track.

0:53

Kevin: We almost should though, Rob, just because this episode

0:56

title is so much like our own title.

1:00

It's Subspace Radio talks Subspace Rhapsody.

1:03

Rob: Look, it's almost eating in on itself.

1:06

Like a, a ouroboros. Yes, the episode that everyone's been talking about is finally here and,

1:12

oh you knew it was gonna cause some dissension in the ranks and it has

1:18

exploded just as they knew it would.

1:20

Kevin: Oh no, Rob, where do you hang out that all of these

1:23

angry Star Trek fans hang out? Rob: Online, Kevin.

1:28

And I should, I know I should stop doing it,

1:30

Kevin: That was your first mistake. Rob: Yeah. Rookie mistake.

1:34

So it's always good for me to get an idea of, yeah, just a sense of it.

1:38

There's been a lot of positives and there's been some negatives.

1:43

Some people have been like going for deep canon cuts and whether they were breaking

1:48

canon or not, which they clearly didn't, and I thought they were tantalizing little

1:52

treats which I was really excited to hear.

1:54

But yeah, and just general opinions on the whole concept of a musical episode.

2:00

We talk about it with Strange New Worlds so much about, it's like ticking off the

2:04

checklist of the go-to genre episodes.

2:09

So we've had the body swap. We've had the amnesia episode.

2:12

We've had the crossover episode. And it's only a new phenomenon, like since the early noughties really.

2:20

But the musical episode has become the new go-to gimmick.

2:25

So it was used in Buffy, it was used in the Flash, it was used in Riverdale.

2:30

It's been used in Kevin: The magicians.

2:32

Rob: Yes. Multiple genre shows have done a musical episode.

2:38

So this is just adding to that list.

2:41

Kevin: The Buffy musical was explicitly referenced in this

2:44

episode for anyone paying attention.

2:47

The joke about turning into bunnies was, could be nothing other

2:51

than a winking acknowledgement.

2:53

Rob: To Anya's lovely song, bunnies, bunnies, it must be bunnies.

2:59

Kevin: Yeah. I went into this with very high expectations.

3:03

Rob, I think I talked a couple weeks ago about how, for the crossover

3:07

episode I was going in wincing and going, Ooh, this could really suck.

3:11

I hope they don't screw it up. But I was on my guard for that.

3:15

For this, I was going in openhearted and give it to me

3:19

because the track record is there.

3:22

Henry Alonso Myers, who's one of the showrunners for Strange New

3:25

Worlds was a showrunner for The Magicians, a show that I watched in

3:30

its entirety and had several musical episodes and they were all excellent.

3:36

The cast did great work with that strange way of presenting a story.

3:44

The songs, importantly, were bangers.

3:46

They were so much fun and stuck in your head and ultimately it must have worked

3:51

because they did it more than once. For those who aren't familiar with the show, it was a story

3:55

about teen angst in magic land.

3:59

It was kind of Harry Potter, if Harry Potter was in university

4:03

and making all his mistakes while learning magic at the same time.

4:07

So the, the angst, the teen angst would be cranked up to 11 and then released

4:13

in a musical episode where everyone sang their hearts to each other.

4:17

So having seen those successes from at least the show runner, I thought he

4:23

knows how to do a musical genre show.

4:26

And I can't wait to see that through a Star Trek lens.

4:30

But I'll say maybe my expectations were a little too high because I, I found

4:36

this episode somewhat disappointing. How about you, Rob?

4:39

Rob: Yeah, look I, I got on the bandwagon with Once More With

4:45

Feeling back in the early noughties.

4:47

It was my first ever musical episode.

4:50

It's like I'm one of the only few I'm aware of.

4:53

It is right smack bang in the early section of season six, which

4:57

is notoriously the worst season of Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

5:00

But the musical episode is always heralded as the last great episode of Buffy.

5:06

Like you said about The Magicians, all the songs in once

5:09

more with feeling are bangers. It's a difficult one because only two of the cast in Buffy are singers.

5:16

Tara, the actress who played Tara's a wonderful singer and Anthony Stewart

5:19

Head was a professional singer. And and all the songs are great, all different styles

5:24

of tunes and stuff like that. That, and plus it was my first one, so my nostalgia of it is really strong.

5:30

I went back and listened to a couple of the songs recently coming up

5:34

to the musical episode of that, and it still holds up really good.

5:38

I love the change of tone. So my expectations of a musical episode are pretty high.

5:43

The last one I saw was for The Flash which was actually directed by the guy

5:48

who directed this episode, Dermott Downs.

5:51

And The Flash one kind of disappointed me and it became

5:54

a bit, oh, it's a bit generic. The songs, and they had some great singers.

5:58

Grant Gustin is an amazing singer. He did Glee, as did Supergirl uh, Melissa Benoist she was in Glee as well.

6:05

Wonderful singers, but the songs didn't really stand out and I got

6:08

this sense of, oh all musical episodes just blend into one another now.

6:13

They've lost that um, uniqueness and novelty, and

6:17

now it's just become a gimmick. So I was a little bit trepidatious with this one.

6:22

I was really excited for the crossover episode, but this one

6:25

I was the songs have to be good. The songs have to be really good for this to be something special.

6:30

And yeah, I was, I love it 'cause it's Strange New Worlds and I love the cast

6:35

and I love all of it, but it, some of it soared, but most of it, their

6:40

choices, the choices they made of how they do the songs was disappointing.

6:47

Having so many songs where they reference the fact that they

6:50

are singing really got old.

6:52

Kevin: It was very self-conscious. Rob: Very self-conscious.

6:55

And also the fact that they incorporate just regular techno babble dialogue

7:02

into the songs ate away at me as well.

7:04

I don't want to hear them Kevin: Yeah, I couldn't tell if I liked it or disliked it.

7:09

I think when it worked like there were moments where they were using Star Trek

7:14

turns of phrase or language where I was like, oh, yeah, what else did I expect?

7:18

Star Trek has such a distinctive language.

7:21

We're gonna get to see that brought into song.

7:23

But there were times where it was, it felt like a gimmick.

7:26

And it was there not to keep the songs connected to Star Trek.

7:31

It was there to make the songs Star Trekky, if I can

7:35

draw that subtle distinction. It, it bordered on parody.

7:38

And my partner turned to me at one point and said, in the middle of

7:41

a song, she turned to me and said, Ooh, this feels like a parody.

7:45

And I was cringing internally in the same way at that moment.

7:49

And you don't want that feeling in the middle of a musical episode.

7:53

Rob: Yeah, there were moments when they started breaking into a song and

7:56

instead of me going, oh, good, now is the time, a part of me went, oh no.

8:01

So there I was quite relieved that the highlight scene for me

8:04

in episode was La'an finally,

8:07

Kevin: Oh yes, Rob: talking to Kirk.

8:10

And that Kevin: with not a song in sight.

8:12

Rob: a song in sight. And that was that they're going, that's not a good sign.

8:16

When the Kevin: Yeah. Your best scene is not a song.

8:19

Yeah. Rob: I mean there are some really solid singers in that group.

8:24

I mean, Celia as Uhura is an incredible singer.

8:27

Christina Chong, of course, has released albums and she's a wonderful singer.

8:31

Ethan Peck is the dark horse. He has a wonderful, soothing voice and Anson Mount's got

8:36

a quite a nice voice as well.

8:38

Kevin: Pretty much the only song with a male lead singer in this episode was

8:42

Spock's song, and while it was great, it was also a reprise of Chapel's song.

8:49

Rob: Yeah, it's very odd hearing, uh, Spock saying, I'm the ex.

8:53

The ex for me is a very is, is is a very juvenile teenager type thing.

8:58

And Kevin: Yeah. Rob: to hear Spock say that I'm going um, interesting.

9:05

Yeah, Jess Bush, I love that song.

9:07

That was a really good song and a really good, self-empowerment number.

9:10

She's not the strongest of singers, but I like how well she did.

9:13

Kevin: Yeah, the melody has definitely stuck with me.

9:15

I personally think the strongest song in the episode is La'an's

9:19

song, which she sings by herself.

9:21

It is gorgeous. That, I said, okay, now we're getting somewhere.

9:25

uh, The Gilbert and Sullivan number in the hallway with Una, I did not need that.

9:30

The status report song I thought was quite awkward.

9:34

But La'an's song was the one where this episode took flight, and I thought, okay,

9:38

if this is the trend and we're now on a path to orbit here, okay, I'm on board.

9:44

This is gonna be great. But I felt like it peaked at that point and never quite reached that level again.

9:49

Rob: Yeah. And plus it has the um, bonus points of having the word

9:53

paradigm in its main chorus. So getting the word paradigm in a chorus is a big plus for me.

9:58

Kevin: Well that that was another example of Star Trek language

10:01

kind of used in song, but I thought that one kind of worked.

10:04

Rob: Yeah. Yeah, for me using the whole, yeah.

10:07

And saying the phrase that everyone talks about when the musical, when your

10:11

emotions build up so much, you can't say it, you have to sing it, to hear

10:14

Rebecca Romijn say that was quite cute.

10:17

But yeah. Dealing with relationship type stuff that we thought we've evolved from,

10:22

and there seemed to be with Pike and Batel, a bit of a step back.

10:27

Kevin: And Chapel and Spock, seeing them torn apart in song

10:30

was not very satisfying, I felt.

10:33

When that message from Roger Korby came in at the start of

10:36

the episode, I was like, Oh no.

10:40

I could use another season of them dating before we go here, please.

10:44

But uh, no. And her choice not to even say anything to him until, forced to by the song virus,

10:52

it just, it felt kind of outta character.

10:55

Rob: I'm kind of relieved that it has become the case of Chapel

10:58

and Spock, we hardly knew ye. 'cause if it was a little bit longer, it would stretch the boundaries of… For

11:05

me, to have it end so quickly and so abruptly, for me, that kind of works.

11:11

Kevin: Yeah. This is why they never talk about it again.

11:13

Rob: Yeah. Kevin: And how it still feels unrequited for her.

11:17

Rob: Very much so, and that, has to linger when we go into you know, original series.

11:22

So there's a lot of easter eggs in there as well.

11:24

So we talked about Korby being referenced. And we mentioned earlier, the big scene is where finally La'an talks to Kirk, and I

11:32

think Kirk handled that scene incredibly, was written well and performed well.

11:36

And we have a drop of… Kevin: Freaking Carol Marcus!

11:41

Rob: gets the drop! Kevin: Yeah.

11:43

Rob: bring in Carol. I wanna see Kevin: Bring her in.

11:46

Yeah. Rob: There's been a lot of controversy about, uh, and people just not

11:50

watching Wrath of Khan to fully understand it, people going Kirk

11:53

didn't know about David and going, did you actually watch the film?

11:58

The first thing he says is when he goes, is that David.

12:01

'cause the one line going, why didn't you tell me? 'cause No, he was talking about, why didn't you tell me

12:05

that David was on the station. Yeah, so that is brought up.

12:08

Girlfriend, pregnant, that this is the point where it happens.

12:11

Kevin: Yeah. Okay. Well, So yeah, that is the thing that, that you were referencing, that people

12:16

are a little uh, perturbed by the canon impact of Carol Marcus and the

12:20

Marcuses being introduced at this point.

12:23

The thing I was, thinking you might be referencing is just like Jim Kirk paying

12:27

another visit to not just the Enterprise, but standing on the bridge and saying, I

12:33

learned everything I know from you people, that is, that is stretching it a bit.

12:38

Rob: Sitting in a briefing with Pike. I'm there going, are they gonna lose their memory after this?

12:42

Is it, it's gonna be? Nope? Okay. All right.

12:44

They've met more than once and Kirk just forgets the musical.

12:48

Kevin: Yeah. Because I believe the line is Kirk is asked whether he ever met Pike,

12:55

and this is in The Menagerie. And Kirk says, we met once when he was promoted to fleet captain.

13:01

And so they did that deft thing, the other episode when the Farragut happened

13:07

to be around at the deuterium refinery and Pike was made fleet captain.

13:11

And so we were like, okay that's the time they met when he was

13:15

promoted to fleet captain. Uh, the fact that it was a temporary promotion is the nice

13:20

little magic trick they did there. Surely they can never meet again, but no.

13:24

Rob: Not only do they meet again, they share a bridge, they share a chorus

13:28

line of awkwardly linking arms and trying to do some sort of choreography

13:32

in a very slippery, confined set.

13:35

Kevin: I guess my feeling about it, Rob, is I am definitely up for the

13:41

story of early Kirk and his relationship with Carol Marcus, all of that I'm

13:47

interested in seeing it, but I don't want it to be at the expense of seeing

13:52

the stories of Strange New Worlds and the characters of that show.

13:56

Especially when we only have 10 episodes to play with each season, the more Jim

14:01

Kirk we get, the less of this show we get.

14:03

And this show deserves every minute of screen time it can get.

14:08

Rob: Exactly. Yep. That's the rub. I could not agree with you more.

14:11

It's, we were sold on the fact this is Strange New Worlds, this

14:14

is Pike's crew leading up to that.

14:17

So we don't want to, shortchange that.

14:20

And especially like I've mentioned before, this is a crew that has a running clock.

14:25

We know that they're not all gonna stay.

14:28

We don't know where they're gonna go, and we don't know what's gonna happen.

14:31

We only know certain things.

14:33

We know where Spock is, we know where Pike

14:36

Kevin: If anything happens to La'an at this point, I am gonna riot.

14:40

She's my favorite character on Strange New Worlds at this point.

14:43

Rob: Incredible actress, incredible character. I love how they've developed her out of the shadows of

14:48

her heritage and her lineage.

14:51

Kevin: Going back to her scene with Kirk, the thing that I loved about

14:54

it, not just how Kirk handled it, but I loved how she handled it, that

14:58

it was not a, confession of love.

15:01

It was, I met an alternate version of you and felt seen, and I like that distinction

15:06

that it takes it from school girl romance to look, when I'm around you, I feel

15:13

like a different person for this reason. Rob: Yeah, and beautiful stuff like they're going be careful what you say

15:19

because of timeline stuff and him saying, I know that I feel the connection with

15:25

you, but I don't know where it comes from. That type of really pleasant stuff.

15:29

So yeah, for me that was a highlight. Kevin: Just for the record, I don't need to hear Jim Kirk say, I don't

15:34

like rules, but… I don't need to hear them hang a lantern on that anymore.

15:40

We all know Kirk is a rule breaker.

15:42

You can stop saying it. Rob: Um, and another bone of contention we got the Klingon singing and it

15:50

was K-pop style as opposed to opera.

15:54

Your thoughts, Kevin Yank? Kevin: It was fine.

15:57

By that point, by that point I had so given up on the story of this.

16:02

Like, for this to be a successful episode for me, it both needed to be a great

16:07

Star Trek story and a great musical.

16:10

And that those two things would be more than the sum of their parts.

16:14

But to me it was by far the weakest story we've gotten in two seasons of

16:19

Strange New Worlds, and it was not a particularly great musical either.

16:25

And as a result, it was less than the sum of its parts for me.

16:28

So by the time the Klingons were K popping, I just went cool.

16:33

They didn't do the obvious thing. That's fine.

16:35

But I'm ready for this episode to be over.

16:38

Rob: Yeah. I'm, like I said, I'm trepidatious of musical type episodes and

16:42

it, I didn't want it to be disposable, forgettable fluff.

16:47

And it was. It was fun and cute and I'm not gonna, rail against it and be angry,

16:53

but I'm just there going, yeah. It's not gonna be it's a forgettable one

16:57

Kevin: Much worse than Klingons singing K-Pop, which actually, like if everything

17:02

else about this episode was firing at nine outta 10 or better, that could have

17:08

been this ridiculous thing that pushed it over the top into instant classic to me.

17:13

I would go there with a good episode.

17:16

That was not this episode's biggest sin.

17:18

For me the biggest one is setting up the plot need of someone to

17:24

sing a song, to rally the crew, to bring them together under a leader.

17:30

And then Pike saying, Uhura, you can sing this one.

17:34

That that wasn't Pike's song makes no sense to me.

17:39

I've heard rumors completely unsubstantiated through fan circles, that

17:44

Anson Mount simply did not want to sing, and uh, they had to write around that.

17:49

And if that's the case, maybe don't do a musical episode.

17:53

If you can't get your captain to sing, maybe don't do a musical episode.

17:57

Rob: And if you want to do an episode that highlights the musical talent

18:00

of your cast, do like what was done in Deep Space Nine, when you've got

18:03

the fabulous work of Benjamin Sisko singing with a hologram some funky

18:08

jazz musical numbers from the fifties.

18:10

You can have, you can make it a part of the show.

18:13

You don't need to structure a whole episode of it and compromise

18:17

Kevin: Or going back to the Battle of AR-558 last week, we had rom at

18:23

the start of that episode singing That's Why the Lady is a Scamp.

18:28

Instant classic, right? Rob: Exactly.

18:30

Exactly. Yeah. There's gotta be karaoke in, you know, in the 23rd century.

18:34

Come on. Kevin: But the thing that we wanted to cover based on this week's attempt at a

18:41

classic musical uh, was other times that Star Trek has jumped with both feet into

18:49

the land of camp, and gone, you know what?

18:52

We get accused of being campy now and then, let's show you

18:55

what it's like when we get campy. Why don't you go first and tell us what you got because

19:00

mine's fairly late timeline. Rob: Mine's Voyager.

19:03

Is yours Voyager? Kevin: Oh, mine is also Voyager.

19:06

Rob: Mine is Voyager, season five, episode 12, Bride of Chaotica!

19:11

Kevin: We've done it again, Rob. We've done it again.

19:17

Yes. Bride of Chaotica! Watched it today, knew what I was in for, and it did not disappoint.

19:25

Rob: Yeah, I was, I, from my memories of it, I thought it was a lot more fun.

19:31

And it was about 40% fun, 60% justification.

19:35

And I'm there going, oh, cut out the justification, all right?

19:40

Do a Our Man Bashir type thing and just go full Flash Gordon style.

19:44

Kevin: I think if they ever try this again in Strange New Worlds or

19:47

elsewhere, that's also what I want, is don't have the characters aware that

19:52

singing is strange and spend half the episode trying to figure out how to stop

19:57

singing because they hate it so much. Let's just, imagine Star Trek was always a musical, and tell us a story that way.

20:05

Rob: So tell us about Bride of Chaotica!

20:08

Kevin: Yeah, so this is mid Voyager.

20:10

We do have Seven of Nine on board, but she is still pretty grumpy.

20:14

Uh, she and uh, Rob: And surprisingly in the background for this one.

20:18

Kevin: Yes, indeed. And we have a long established Paris Kim man date where they go into the

20:25

holodeck and play out these old B-movie plots under the name Captain Proton.

20:31

Tom Paris plays Captain Proton, and Harry Kim plays Captain Proton's

20:35

sidekick, who has a name; I can't remember what it is right now.

20:39

I don't think we're meant to remember what it is.

20:42

And the scenes in the holodeck are all in black and white.

20:44

This was a fun conceit that Voyager invented, that if you go and play a

20:49

black and white holodeck story, you are turned black and white yourself.

20:54

And that's Rob: very cool. Yeah. Kevin: I think we had seen snippets of Captain Proton in other stories up

21:00

until this point, but this was the one where they were like, we're gonna make

21:03

this the setting for the entire episode.

21:06

And so Tom and Harry are on their mandate in the holodeck

21:10

playing through their story. Harry is the one playing it for the first time; Tom's played this scenario 10

21:16

times and he knows exactly how it goes.

21:19

Rob: As always, Tom Paris is the expert of ancient Earth culture.

21:23

So he knows how to put a car together.

21:25

He knows how to put a, a plane together. He knows how, how old 1950s serialized space adventure sci-fi works, apparently.

21:33

Kevin: Yeah. And suddenly they see a purple portal in this otherwise

21:37

black and white environment.

21:39

A kind of creepy purple portal appears in the sky.

21:42

And that's the cold open. The big picture story here is that trans dimensional life forms—

21:47

We're getting a lot of trans dimensional life forms in Star Trek,

21:50

all of a sudden, it seems like. —have come into our dimension and, unluckily, the place where they appear

21:57

is within the holodeck of Voyager, and the life forms that come through are

22:02

photonic lifeform who believe it is normal to be a lifeform made of light.

22:07

And so everything in the holodeck seems realistic to them.

22:10

And the organic life forms who insist they are real, seem completely

22:16

fake and unbelievable to them. So this whole scenario of Dr.

22:21

Chaotica destroying the Captain Proton's planet like that is, they take

22:28

that at face value and go after Dr.

22:31

Chaotica who wages war on them with his Death Ray, and they start dying off.

22:36

The fictional characters on Voyagers, holodeck are waging war with these

22:41

real photonic life forms, and Voyager's crew is stuck in the middle

22:46

and needs to untangle the situation.

22:48

Doctor hologram to the rescue, or as he portrays himself, the President of Earth,

22:55

steps in and it explains a version of this that the photonic life forms can believe.

23:02

And then the big culmination of this is Janeway stepping into the role

23:08

of Queen Arachnia, the Spider Queen.

23:12

Uh, And yeah, there is that moment when uh, Tom Paris is laying this

23:16

all out where everyone looks to Seven because it seems obvious that she's

23:21

gonna be the seductive Spider Queen in the holodeck scenario, but for reasons

23:27

that are completely unexplained, Paris goes, no you gotta do this Janeway.

23:31

And she's up for it. Rob: At first she isn't.

23:34

She has the double take at first going, oh no, no, no,

23:37

Kevin: No, no. And, if you get into trouble, ma'am, you can always release the pheromones.

23:42

I beg your pardon? It's it's very funny.

23:47

That scene or, or or couple of scenes where she is in the holodeck in her full

23:53

like Spider Queen outfit, it's something that is often referenced at conventions.

23:59

Kate Mulgrew talks about how much fun she had in that episode, and I think

24:04

I agree with you that this episode has taken on a larger than life presence

24:10

in fandom because of that reason.

24:13

And then when we go back and watch the actual episode, it's less than

24:16

we've made it out to be in our memory.

24:19

But it is still fun to see her play along with Dr.

24:21

Chaotica. Rob: So much so, I wanna see more of it.

24:24

The joy of Our Man Bashir is seeing all our regular cast taken over

24:29

by these personalities, uh whether Russian spies or drug dealers or, all

24:34

this type of man of mystery, and they embrace it for most of the story.

24:38

Whereas with this, like I said, it's, 60%, how are we gonna solve this problem?

24:43

And sure, it's great to get a scene of Janeway walking in, having Neelix

24:47

talk in her ear and she goes, I can't talk until I get my coffee.

24:53

And the, the acting of Kate Mulgrew, as she takes that sip and

24:56

you see her literally change in front of you to go, alright, now

25:00

I'm ready to put up with Neelix. Kevin: Yeah.

25:02

Rob: That's good. But I want a full hour of black and white ridiculousness, full body

25:08

costume robots and Kate Mulgrew just chewing up every scene.

25:12

Kevin: Satan's robot is what they call it in this episode.

25:17

And it's funny because they never quite say, I hate you, robot.

25:22

But all of the acting that's going on in the scenes when the robot is

25:26

there says, I loathe this thing.

25:29

Like they, they repair the robot and then immediately the robot gets

25:34

itself in trouble and gets itself damaged and goes, Need repair.

25:37

Need repair. And Tuvok and Paris who are in that scene, just very deliberately roll

25:43

their eyes and turn away from it. Like you can repair yourself, you stupid robot.

25:48

Uh, It is very funny. The funniest thing in this episode for me, I agree with you, was not in the holodeck.

25:55

It is when Tom Paris is explaining what's going on in the holodeck.

25:59

They're in the briefing room and Jane was like, so let me get this straight.

26:02

The photonic life forms this, and Dr.

26:04

Chaotica that, and now he's waging war on them with his army.

26:09

And Paris goes, yes ma'am. Yes ma'am.

26:12

His army of evil. Yes ma'am. It is just, it is the perfect kind of self-conscious.

26:18

That they like, they just dip their toe into that.

26:21

There's another moment in the hallway way where Paris goes

26:24

And remember, you are the queen.

26:26

And it, it is like they take that one line to go, yes, we are

26:31

winking at the audience here. But then we step back into taking this seriously which I felt like was missing

26:38

from Strange New Worlds, is they were way spending way more time over that line,

26:42

Rob: Yeah. Kevin: into unbelievability.

26:45

Rob: It's very much watching this episode has made me realize, of course

26:48

of all the cast of Voyager, of course it would be Tom Paris and Harry Kim

26:53

who create their own podcast to review every episode because the actors and

26:59

the characters are perfectly that. Like the moment where he goes full nerd and goes, now remember it's not phaser,

27:05

it's called Laser Gun and nah, it's not called transporter, it's Energizer.

27:10

Nah. Kevin: Yes, that's right. Rob: That's why we need a moment where Boimler meets Paris, 'cause I think

27:16

they would just geek out together. Kevin: Well, so we chose the exact same example of Camp Star Trek, and

27:22

I don't think there's anything that comes close to the Bride of Chaotica!

27:26

Rob: Not really. I mean, 'cause I think Bride of Chaotica!, like you said, they returned

27:30

to this holosuite a bit in season five.

27:32

I think the first episode of season five is where they first

27:35

introduced that Paris goes into it. 'cause I think each season they have almost something new like season one when

27:42

they go to the holosuite, it's like that Parisian cafe type space that they go to.

27:48

And then they kind of go off on their own where Janeway is manipulating her program

27:52

to get the perfect man, lose the wife.

27:55

Um, but yeah, season five is the the Captain Proton season.

28:00

Kevin: The only other one that came to my mind was like from the original

28:03

series, season three, episode 20, The Way to Eden, which is the one with

28:09

the singing space hippies on board.

28:11

And I barely remember the plot of this episode, but it ends with the

28:15

space hippies finding the planet that they think is Eden, but it turns out

28:19

the fruit is corrosive and poisonous and the leader doesn't believe it.

28:23

He climbs a tree and eats one of these fruits and dies on the ground.

28:26

It's full of scenes of these hippies on the ship, singing songs in the rec room.

28:32

And it is unfortunately, quite cringey.

28:35

It's acknowledged to be one of the bad episodes of season

28:38

three of the original series. So I would not class it among the other, these other examples of

28:45

like deliberately camp Star Trek.

28:47

I would say this is one of those episodes where Star Trek gets its bad

28:51

reputation of being camp inadvertently.

28:54

Rob: Yeah, a lot of people have called out uh, Trouble with

28:57

Tribbles as a little bit of a campy one just because of the inherent

29:01

Kevin: The lighthearted. Rob: Yeah. Um and we've mentioned it many times before, like baseball episode, Take

29:07

Me Out to the Holosuite is quite campy in some ways on Deep Space Nine.

29:11

So they are there.

29:14

But definitely Bride of Chaotica! is the one that's leaned into.

29:17

And like you said, it's quite surprising, my memories of it, it

29:20

was more campy than it actually was.

29:23

Kevin: Certainly Dr. Chaotica and his chewing of the scenery, that is camp at 11 and uh,

29:29

he pulls it off like the actor is playing 100% commitment and truth.

29:33

Rob: And the henchman as well is great as well.

29:35

The henchman Kevin: The henchman with the helmet that's got room for two heads in.

29:39

It is, Rob: yeah. Kevin: hilarious. Rob: So, Yeah, that's us going down the all singing, all dancing, all

29:45

camp approach to Star Trek this week.

29:47

I'm, I know there's a lot of people who loved it and um, great that Kevin

29:50

and I are seeing each other on the same page when it comes to this episode.

29:54

Yeah, sadly, not as memorable and a lot more disposable than we would've

29:58

hoped, but only one more episode to go.

30:01

Kevin: I know. And it is, unlike every other episode this season, they like, they have

30:07

the cloak of secrecy around this one.

30:09

There has been very little pre announcing of stuff that will happen here.

30:15

I don't wanna say it out loud, but I feel it's pretty clear to me that Pike's

30:21

lady friend is gonna get eaten by a gorn.

30:23

Like those are the, those are the two dangling plot threads that I've got.

30:27

Way back in The Broken Circle, they had the Gorn ship crossing some line on a

30:32

map, and that has been left dangling.

30:35

So that's clearly to come back. And her final scene with Pike this episode, I was sitting there

30:42

going, oh no, she's gonna die.

30:44

It was very much a, aren't we happy that we finally understand each other and

30:49

now we can start our lives together?

30:52

I've just got one important mission to go on first.

30:55

Bye. And uh, yeah, she's not coming back, I don't think.

30:59

Rob: She is not coming back. And she's great.

31:01

She's a really good character, really good actor. But, things must be sacrificed in the story of Pike.

31:43

Kevin: Hey I forgot to mention regarding our hip hopping Klingons,

31:47

the captain of the Klingon ship was played by Bruce Horak.

31:51

Uh, Hemmer. Rob: I didn't know that.

31:53

Kevin: Yeah. Rob: Brought him back again, and this time as a Klingon.

31:56

Kevin: He could be the uh, the new Weyoun.

31:59

Rob: The new Jeffrey Coombs. Kevin: Yes. Rob: Yeah, yeah.

32:02

Coombs is there going, don't take my record, man.

32:04

Now before we finish up, I've got to, I've gotta bring something to light.

32:08

Last night I did something, 'cause I've been watching a lot of videos about the

32:12

history of star Trek and stuff like that. So I went back and I did something that I said I would never watch again, Kevin.

32:19

Last night I watched Star Trek III: The Search for Spock.

32:24

Kevin: Why what, what, what possessed you?

32:26

Uh, I, I'm not complaining, but of all the times I have implored you to

32:31

go back and watch that amazing movie and, and you haven't done so, I'm

32:36

wondering what made you do it this time? Rob: I've been watching these uh, series of retrospectives on Star Trek.

32:41

I'm watching them out of order. So I watched like the Deep Space Nine one first and I'm

32:46

going back through the movies. So I did them out of order.

32:48

So I did like Star Trek II first, then I did Star Trek V, then I did

32:53

Star Trek VI, and I did Star Trek III.

32:55

And just hearing about the process of making the film, shooting the

33:01

film, getting the finances for it, where it was within the banner of

33:05

things and how they referred to the Genesis Trilogy is a really solid

33:08

trilogy within the Star Trek films.

33:11

And that consistency we haven't really had within the Star Trek movies.

33:15

That is like the gold standard, Star Trek II, III, IV.

33:19

Yeah. And all those little gags that we'd mentioned about how Uhura with the

33:23

young cadet wanting to be the adventure boy, and don't call me Tiny, and and

33:28

to see Christopher Lloyd again, 'cause I haven't watched it in so long.

33:31

And it was great to re-watch.

33:33

It's for a first time director of a motion picture, Nimoy it, the pace

33:38

just goes at an incredible rate. Taking those moments to absorb the heavy hitting moments Shatner is in

33:46

wonderful form, does really well.

33:48

It's heartbreaking. And the reaction shots of Jimmy Doohan and the other cast looking

33:54

at Kirk when he's lost David.

33:57

And it's such a, yeah, like it's not shown.

34:01

It's a messy, dirty, un heroic, but very heroic death.

34:05

And it's just what I remember. And just his moment of just, he can't even take his boys' body with him.

34:12

And he has to leave it there and just cover it with his jacket.

34:15

And the final scene just had me in tears. The final scene went in, like I'd seen, I've seen it a, a couple of times, but to

34:21

watch it now and to see just Spock with his mind back and him still trying and

34:28

he just turns around, takes off his hood and his scene with Kirk is just amazing.

34:34

Kevin: The ship out of danger uh,

34:37

Rob: Oh God. Kevin: When they replay the lines, because the katra that was put in McCoy

34:42

is before Spock goes into the radiation chamber, the fact that he would have

34:48

the same questions with the same words when he is brought back to life.

34:52

I love that writing. It is it is underwritten in such that subtle way that lets the

34:58

performances tell the story. I agree that is a powerful ending.

35:02

Rob: And I knew it was, I knew it was coming, but I, it was interesting

35:05

to find out that they pretty much wrote backwards because they knew

35:09

that Spock's final line would be, or what the powerful line would be, Jim.

35:14

Your name is Jim. And just watching Nimoy's face and just this is why I, he is incredible.

35:24

He just has so much going on. He's not a robot.

35:27

You can see him trying to form and just the, cavalcade of

35:32

emotions he has across his face. From that is just outstanding.

35:36

I was just bawling when he was just there going, everything that Kirk has lost,

35:41

we've talked about, and to see it again. His ship gone, the ship that, you know, that Spock saved and the people that he

35:48

saved and loss of his son to do all that.

35:51

Just to get his, this more than a friend back.

35:54

And just and Bones's talk with him as well.

35:57

Yeah. God, it's, yeah, it's powerful stuff.

36:00

It's great stuff. And just the time they take at the end for the whole process

36:03

of the katra being swapped over. So I know it's off topic, but it was very much a you are on my mind

36:10

as I was watching it late last night when I couldn't get to sleep.

36:13

I chucked it on Kevin: Oh, very