0:09

Kevin: Hello and welcome back to Subspace Radio, it's your old friend Kevin.

0:13

Rob: And your old buddy bud, Rob.

0:16

Kevin: Rob, you're not a green ooze in a cave, are you?

0:20

Rob: Look, I'm not a green ooze, but I do like to put you through a trial of how

0:25

you represent yourself as a human being and whether you have a good moral compass

0:29

or not for me to do a podcast with. So far, you've succeeded!

0:33

Kevin: Okay, I'm trying to understand if that's a specific Star Trek reference,

0:36

or just a general reference to all of the moral tests of humanity that

0:41

exist throughout all of Star Trek. Rob: You have passed that test, so now let's sit down

0:46

and eat giant bugs together.

0:48

Kevin: Oh, yes. One of the many things you can do when you're stuck in a cave, as our crew on the

0:54

Cerritos is in Lower Decks episode eight of season four, entitled simply, Caves.

1:00

Rob: Yes, after the Tantalizing story arc reveal last week, they threw a well

1:08

used shifty on us like most genre shows do and they gave us a, and I do this

1:13

in inverted commas, bottle episode. Kevin: Yeah, completely standalone, and and I loved it for it.

1:19

I needed a dose of just plain, uncut, light entertainment.

1:25

Rob: Not only was it a cave episode, but it was also a flashback episode where

1:29

we got little vignettes from each of our main characters who went on a, a joint

1:34

mission, which we haven't had for a while. I know they all four went to Ferenginar, but they all went off

1:39

on their separate ways really. But this is our first time where we had all four back on a mission, which

1:45

we haven't had for quite some time.

1:47

And this spurred them on to think back to other adventures in caves from the past.

1:51

Kevin: It had that feeling. I think they had a couple of like lead ups to I'm gonna tell a story now, and

1:58

then I'm like, oh, no, is it actually a clip episode in an animated series?

2:02

Don't do that to us. But sure enough they had several original tales for us and it was good fun.

2:09

I really enjoyed it. Rob: Yeah, we went from bringing back obscure shape shifting creatures from the

2:14

animated series and conspiracy theories to Rutherford getting pregnant and going

2:22

off on an adventure with T'Ana, who was Kevin: that itself is an increasingly recurring motif of a male crew member

2:29

getting impregnated by an alien. Rob: Yep. If it works for Red Dwarf, it can work here.

2:33

And Tendi wanting to always tell her adventures, but it was never in a cave.

2:39

It was in a turbo lift. Kevin: Yeah and stuck in a Turbolift is something that's happened a

2:44

few times in Star Trek as well. So yeah, the caves and more this episode had.

2:49

I don't know about you Rob, my favorite one of these

2:52

vignettes was the one with Dr. T'Ana.

2:54

I've said recently how I'm a big fan of that cranky cat doctor and getting to

2:59

see her be a bit real and emotionally affected and changed and almost start to

3:07

fall in love with our pal Rutherford here.

3:10

That felt real interesting. I really liked that.

3:12

When she was wistfully making her way off into the corridor for the,

3:17

for the umpteenth time in search of their escape, it was really affecting.

3:23

I loved that colour on this character.

3:27

Rob: Definitely. Kevin: And unlike other recent episodes in this season, it did play with the

3:34

bridge crew here, or the command crew, but it kept them connected to the

3:38

characters that are our core, and so it felt emotionally linked to what I care

3:44

about in this series and not a side story.

3:47

Rob: Yeah, especially with T'Ana because she's been a bit of a

3:50

appear and gag type of character. So, like, revealing that they used to hunt Betazoids and all that type

3:55

of stuff, and the kinks that she has.

3:58

But to have this as, she goes beyond that.

4:01

And we've had elements of that in the past, but not for a while.

4:04

To get back to going, yeah, T'Ana is a well rounded character.

4:08

There's a lot of levels there, a lot of layers there, and,

4:11

shows that we want to see more. She's not just a, a doctor with a cat's head.

4:15

Kevin: Mmm. What was your favorite of the vignettes?

4:18

Rob: I think I got the most out of Mariner with Delta Shift because

4:22

it revealed a little bit more about the structure of a starship.

4:26

And the priorities or the, who is seen and who isn't.

4:32

Really nice. That whole case of you guys can do whatever you want and

4:35

we have to clean up your mess. Or, we've only had one or two run ins with the captain because, we're

4:41

up when everybody else is asleep. Kevin: That one I liked because it was the funniest.

4:45

I laughed a lot at them getting old and breaking their leg and leaving the leg

4:51

behind and all of that stuff was hilarious to me, so it was high entertainment value

4:56

for me, but I see what you mean as well. Rob: Um, I think I chuckled the most with Rutherford's baby adventures.

5:02

And I did have a good heart swelling moment that, you know, Tendi, of course

5:06

Tendi, the memory she holds dearest is the time when we flash back to,

5:11

Kevin: The very first episode of the series, or like a coda to the

5:15

very first episode of the series. Rob: To Second Contact, where they just got to know each other.

5:20

Trapped in an elevator, they had to, have a wee corner, as we would

5:24

say in Australia, and sit and chat and get to know each other.

5:28

So that good range of variety and spending some time with our characters

5:32

that we haven't had for a while. Kevin: Yeah. Anything else you want to cover here?

5:36

I'm keen to get into our past episodes because there's a lot to talk about.

5:40

Rob: Yeah. Let's get it, let's get into it. Let's do this.

5:43

Kevin: Okay. I am going to presume to start with a Original Series episode, if you will.

5:49

Rob: Start with it. Start with it. Go with it. You can presume correctly.

5:53

Kevin: The uh, first prominent Cave episode that I can think

5:56

of is the Original Series season one episode twenty six.

6:01

Remember when we had twenty six episodes in a Star Trek season, Rob?

6:06

Rob: Remember when we had 26 episodes of any TV series?

6:11

Kevin: And it was this good. The Devil in the Dark, the the Horta, No Kill I, the big kind of carpet

6:18

creature that is eating miners alive

6:22

Rob: Miners or minors? Kevin: Miners, of course!

6:24

Rob: He he heh hah! Kevin: And Spock has to calm it and communicate with this non humanoid silicon

6:31

based creature by mind melding with it.

6:34

The miners broke into a new cavern on their mineral rich planet and found

6:39

it full of suspiciously round silicon nodules that turned out to be the eggs

6:45

of this last surviving mother of the new generation of this race and they were

6:51

breaking the eggs and so the mother had to fight back no one understood it until

6:56

Spock came along and acted as translator.

6:59

This episode is 90 percent set in cave sets.

7:04

And when you watch it in modern HD, a few things become clear.

7:10

One, it is all the same cave set, just shot from different angles with

7:14

different lighting, and different props strewn about the floor.

7:18

All the same props, just in different configurations.

7:22

Rob: As Mariner said in this week's episode, the, all

7:24

these caves look the same. Kevin: Ah, my biggest laugh was Rutherford commenting on, Oh, I love a good cave.

7:32

The flat floors, the funny smell.

7:35

The flat floors really got that is a direct reference to

7:39

The Devil in the Dark here. All of these cave sets are very obviously built on a completely flat studio floor.

7:48

And... I think all of us Star Trek fans watched that episode and mentally went,

7:53

Okay, so when Starfleet digs caves, it makes sure the floors are flat.

7:57

That is part of the high technology on display is that we can flatten the

8:01

floors of all the caves that we work in. Rob: It's the future for a reason, Okay?

8:06

We're not in the past, we're not primitives.

8:09

We are in the, we are in the, the white palace on the Hill.

8:12

We are in a utopian future, where all cave floors are perfectly smooth and flat.

8:18

Kevin: I forgive the Star Trek fans come lately who complain about the flat

8:22

floors because apparently that bothered Gene Roddenberry at the time as well.

8:26

I found that in my behind the scenes information about that episode is

8:30

that when he watched the dailies of that episode, he was like, someone

8:34

fire the production designer because all those floors stupidly flat.

8:43

Some great. Just a well made episode here, very tense, lots of Kirk, Spock.

8:50

When they split up and Kirk's life is in danger, Spock gets borderline

8:55

emotional, calls him Jim, and starts running down the corridor until Kirk

9:00

reassures him that it's okay, it's like really good early Kirk, Spock stuff.

9:05

Lots of great smash cuts as well of like it cuts from the middle of one

9:10

conversation to a completely different time and place in another conversation

9:15

and you don't realize that we have changed scenes until we cut to a wide

9:21

and find ourselves in a different place. Really modern editing in this episode, here.

9:26

I don't know if that was in the writing, if that was in the script, or is that

9:29

something that the director or editor introduced in the process, but yeah,

9:34

really well put together episode and it shows the power of a good cave set,

9:39

because unless you're looking for it to realize that it is one small room

9:45

shot from many angles with different lighting states, it feels like a

9:49

massive complex of underground caverns.

9:53

It's really good. Rob: Awesome, awesome, I have to check it out.

9:58

Kevin: I think that's the implication that a cave set can be reused and

10:02

re shot in many different ways. And so you get a lot of bang for your buck from a cave set.

10:07

It can make a low budget episode feel high budget.

10:11

And there bit of that in Lower Decks, where if you're paying attention to that

10:15

Caves episode, They use a lot of the same cave drawings, just with different

10:21

lights or different colors over them.

10:24

There's lots of moments of our Cerritos crew kind of walking past the same two

10:28

stalagmites that are in the same exact configuration, but they are meant to

10:33

be in a completely different story on a completely different planet.

10:36

That's the homage, that's part of the homage here.

10:38

And, and that budget saving measure is on full display in The Devil in the Dark.

10:44

Rob: It's definitely the Star Trek equivalent of going on location

10:48

but staying in the studio. So giving the feel that we are...

10:52

somewhere else, but not needing to go through that financial, strain and,

10:58

logistical nightmare of going out on location, or, the only locations

11:02

available are California roughland, and we can only make that look like

11:07

somewhere alien only so few times.

11:11

But yeah, it's a great way to give that sense of we're off

11:13

the ship, we're off world, Kevin: Mmm, kinda, kinda.

11:18

Rob: Kinda, yeah. Kevin: What's your first episode, Rob?

11:22

Rob: I've leaned heavily into it this week.

11:25

I've gone straight to Deep Space Kevin: Of course, yes.

11:28

There's a lot caves in Deep Space Nine. Rob: Lots and lots of caves.

11:32

So I'm going to do two. One where you think the cave will be the main focus, but it's actually

11:37

the B plot that is the A plot. Uh, and the next one, it's just all about the caves.

11:42

Let's start off with Star Trek Deep Space Nine, Season 3,

11:45

Episode 14, Heart of Stone.

11:48

Kevin: We have a match. Rob: Hey!

11:51

Kevin: That's on my list as well. Rob: Awesome.

11:53

Now this is the one where the actual cave plot is not the

11:56

strongest part of this story. The strongest part of this story is the B plot, which I'd really say is the A plot.

12:02

Kevin: I absolutely agree. It was obviously written that the A plot is Odo and Kira in that cave.

12:08

But Nog's story with Sisko is so good!

12:13

Rob: Especially where Nog's story went, going back and watching it again,

12:16

you're going, this is the A plot. You know what's going to happen with Kira and Odo, and that's an old trope, but

12:22

this is, no discredit to Nana or René Auberjonois, they are in top form here.

12:28

René especially is amazing, but Aaron is so good as Nog.

12:36

And Max is there in such a small capacity as Rom before his role is

12:40

expanded as well, but he steals it.

12:42

He's just such a loss, such a wonderful, talented actor, brilliant actor,

12:47

and his Nog is one of the greatest creations in Star Trek, hands down.

12:51

Kevin: Yeah, so that B story for anyone who's, who's wondering whether

12:54

they should go watch this is when Nog first asked for a recommendation

12:58

to go to Starfleet Academy.

13:00

He's bribing Sisko with gold pressed latinum at the start of this episode

13:04

and by the end he has won our hearts. Rob: And always shaking his hand.

13:08

Kevin: It catches you by surprise. I think you watch the start of that story and go, Ugh, more Ferengi stuff.

13:13

And by the end you're crying. It's so good.

13:17

Rob: It's absolutely amazing stuff, and you just see...

13:21

so much of where this character is gonna go and the potential that he has.

13:26

It's a great stuff. So the main focus though is Kira and Odo chasing down a Maquis uh, escapee.

13:32

They go to a a planet where they've crash landed or landed, chasing

13:36

through the caves and they're distracted by the fact that...

13:40

Kira gets caught in some sort of, crystal that is growing and evolving

13:44

and consuming her entire body.

13:47

Kevin: Yeah, yeah, it catches her by the foot.

13:49

And at first she just thinks her foot is stuck, but gradually

13:53

the crystal grows up her leg and eventually covers her whole body and

13:57

is at at real risk of killing her. Rob: And Odo cannot do anything to save her.

14:03

Kevin: He tries a lot of stuff. I really enjoy the procedural moments of this where he goes back to the

14:08

runabout and he's chatting with the computer about, can we try this?

14:12

Can we try pattern enhancers? Can we try getting a signal to Deep Space Nine?

14:17

How about this? How about that? I nerd out on when the world of Star Trek, feels rich and realistic, and the

14:25

number of layers of things that he tries and that fail in this make me buy the

14:32

world and the reality of their situation.

14:35

Rob: Definitely, there's a key moment in the episode near the end when it's getting

14:39

to the point where Kira is going to die.

14:43

There's no way of getting out of it. And Odo's wracked with all this, these emotions, and he just lets slip, he lets

14:51

slip, and it's one of my favorite moments, it's one of my favorite things, I just

14:55

Kevin: It's so early too! I did not realize that Odo was confessing his feelings.

15:01

When you say something out loud, it makes it real.

15:03

He made it real for himself way back here in Season 3.

15:07

Rob: yeah, and when he reveals it, the effect it has on him and you see him like

15:12

literally crumble and fall to his knees with just the sheer weight of it, he's

15:17

collapsing under the burden that's been released, it's such a beautiful moment.

15:23

Yeah, and his story about how he got his name, there's some lovely stuff

15:26

there and of course there's the old bait and switch at the end when it's

15:29

not actually who they think it is.

15:31

Kevin: We won't spoil it beyond that. But yeah, it's a good one.

15:35

I remember this as the episode where Odo confesses his feelings in a

15:40

Rob: Yeah, hmm. Kevin: and that's why it was at the top of my list of cave

15:44

episodes of Deep Space Nine. Rob: Yes, yeah, I remember because I wanted to watch it because, you know,

15:48

Odo is my favorite character and and his relationship with Kira is one of

15:54

the strongest points of Deep Space Nine. And Nana Visitor is just in one of the top actors ever to be in the show.

16:01

Kevin: She plays some great texture in this episode.

16:03

She goes from like panic to crying to then back to professional and jokingly

16:10

diffusing the situation with laughter.

16:13

She plays all of those different colors and it's really, it's a really textured

16:17

performance that could be quite one note if you looked at the script.

16:21

Rob: Definitely, but the real MVP of this episode is not even in a cave.

16:25

Kevin: This is a good example of being stuck in one room of a cave.

16:30

There's a lot of exits to that room, and you get the sense there is quite a

16:33

network of caverns around, but because Kira's foot is stuck, we spend it all

16:39

standing in one place, and I'm not sure how critical to the story that was.

16:45

I think they probably went we want Kira's life to be under threat, and

16:49

we don't want to spend a lot of money. Wait, I've got a brilliant idea!

16:52

Like that, that I feel was the genesis Rob: heh, Kevin: for this episode.

16:57

Rob: And even though we hadn't talked about it beforehand thinking back on it,

17:01

those floors were not as smooth as uh,

17:03

Kevin: No, they uh, they had upped the ante a bit.

17:06

Rob: So you got another episode to talk about that is let's get into

17:09

the deep bowels of these episodes.

17:12

Kevin: Yeah, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go for a Next Gen.

17:15

This is TNG Season 4 Episode 9, Final Mission.

17:20

This is Wesley's final regular episode of Star Trek The Next Generation before

17:26

he leaves the show and is written out as he departs for Starfleet Academy.

17:32

And this is famously because Will Wheaton wanted to leave the show

17:38

in order to pursue a film career.

17:40

And we had previously lost Denise Crosby as Tasha Yar way back in season

17:46

one under similar circumstances. She had asked to be written out of the show, asked to be

17:51

released from her contract. And I think you read the behind the scenes stuff for Final Mission and it is clear

17:58

that they were like, We want to do better for Wesley than we did for Tasha Yar.

18:03

This is not going to be a sudden regrettable death.

18:07

Rob: No Skin of Evil. Yeah, Kevin: the stuff I've read suggests it was actually Gene Roddenberry

18:12

who came up with the idea that he could go to Starfleet Academy.

18:15

That preserves, it keeps the character alive, keeps him maybe available

18:19

as a guest star if ever he wants to come back again, as he did.

18:23

And it is a happy, positive development for the character that our audience

18:28

will be caring about quite a bit four seasons into this series.

18:33

In this episode, yeah, it starts with Wesley getting the news in a ambush on

18:38

the bridge by Captain Picard that he is been accepted into Starfleet Academy.

18:44

A spot has opened up and Picard pranks him in giving him the news.

18:48

And it's quite funny. And then Picard says, before you go, I want you to join me on one final mission.

18:54

And they go off in a in a little freighter with a ornery captain to go

18:59

and investigate a tense negotiation situation, but they never make it there.

19:06

This rickety shuttle breaks down and they crash on a planet.

19:12

Now this is quite different from many cave episodes in that it doesn't

19:16

feel like they were trying to save a lot of money or do a cheap episode

19:21

because the crash landing sequence is quite, quite high in production value.

19:27

There's a lot of exploding panels on the ship and attempts to keep the thing under

19:32

control and they're swapping stations.

19:35

And yeah they're really troubleshooting the problem.

19:37

They do end up going down and, but they don't just land in a cave.

19:41

They land in a desert and they, come out the top of the ship and they find

19:47

themselves on like a dry riverbed with mountains in the distance.

19:50

They went on location for this cave episode and shot two days

19:55

in a dry riverbed in California.

19:57

And it looks hot and there's lots of you know how in Star Trek VI there's

20:02

like those long walking segments when they're out of the shield and

20:06

they're at risk of freezing to death? This is the desert version of that.

20:10

There's lots of long walking stuff where Picard proves his mettle by being the

20:15

most resilient to the heat in the end.

20:18

Rob: course, of course. Kevin: But they do finally make it into a cave, and this cave looks mighty

20:25

familiar, and that's because it is the Planet Hell set, which is a famous set

20:31

during the Star Trek The Next Generation, and even into Star Trek Voyager years.

20:35

On Paramount Stage 16, there was a standing cavern set that was built for The

20:41

Next Generation, used in many episodes.

20:44

That's why so many of the caves in Star Trek The Next Generation look

20:48

so similar, because they were all the same standing set on Stage 16.

20:52

And there are several, you know, appearances of that set in DS9 and Voyager

20:57

as well, as that thing was tweaked and changed and repainted and re sculpted

21:03

and it was given a ceiling at one point.

21:05

It was like an open kind of quarry situation originally.

21:10

Voyager even did a tribute to it by calling a particularly unhospitable

21:16

planet that Seven of Nine found in Stellar Cartography, they called it Planet Hell

21:21

and talked how terrible it was and that was a reference to the Stage 16 set.

21:26

Rob: Nice. Kevin: Wesley and and Picard and the freighter captain make it into this cave

21:32

set, which has at its center a fountain of water protected by a force field,

21:40

the origin of which is never explained.

21:43

We never found out who made that fountain, who put that force field around it,

21:47

but getting through that force field is critical to the survival of our heroes

21:51

because they are, they crash landed in a ship with no provisions and they've

21:56

just walked for a day in the scorching hot heat and in their efforts Picard

22:01

is injured and on the verge of death.

22:03

And this creates the dramatic kind of like final heart to

22:07

hearts between Picard and Wesley.

22:10

They say their feelings to each other. They explain how much they mean to each other.

22:15

Wesley's speech, I'd say is less effective than Picard's.

22:20

And I don't know, I've said recently that I called another episode like

22:24

Wesley's finest episode, because he was, his acting was so good.

22:28

Here, it's a shame in final mission. Wesley's acting is not that great, if you ask me.

22:34

He just is not selling the emotion.

22:37

It feels like his mind is just elsewhere.

22:40

But Picard gives him a great speech where he says, Oh, I envy you, Wesley Crusher.

22:45

You're just at the beginning of the adventure.

22:49

And this is as Picard is laying near death, and he breaks into

22:52

tears, and tears stream down his face about his feelings for Wesley.

22:56

You rarely see Picard, especially in the original series looking this vulnerable,

23:01

and it's a really lovely moment. This conversation they have establishes the existence of Boothby, the

23:08

groundskeeper at Starfleet Academy, who we see in a later episode of

23:13

NextGen and then in Voyager beyond. Lots of good stuff here.

23:17

I would say apart from Will Wheaton's performance not being the greatest, this

23:21

is a really good episode, and a really fitting send off for the character.

23:26

Rob: It's interesting how they've, obviously because Patrick

23:29

Stewart by this stage was... the lead.

23:33

And it's interesting they decide to just focus on a mission with the two of them.

23:37

A two hander, as opposed to a couple more of the cast to

23:40

share their feelings as well. It really is just, what Wesley and Picard meant to each other.

23:45

Kevin: There's a great I'll use a term that's familiar to both of us

23:47

in improvisation, a status shift.

23:51

At the start of this episode, Picard has high status.

23:54

He is leading this mission. When they crash land, he's the one who says we're putting an arrow on the ground.

24:00

We're heading for the mountains. We're not going to die here.

24:03

The freighter captain is uppity about it.

24:05

And Wesley's like, if you want to get out of this, you're

24:07

going to listen to the captain. He knows what he's talking about.

24:10

So Wesley is quite low status. But when Picard gets injured in the cave, and it's Wesley's moment to

24:17

step up and save them all, you have that status shift where now Picard is

24:22

the one laying on the ground giving the tearful speech and telling Wesley

24:27

he's gonna have to figure it out and Wesley steps up and saves them all.

24:31

So it's a lovely kinda... dramatic shift there too throughout this episode.

24:37

Rob: Excellent. Yeah, I've always wondered about that final episode for Wesley and what it was.

24:42

And do you think it, it's it's better without the other cast there to be a

24:48

part of this farewell or it's better working with just the two of them?

24:52

Kevin: Yeah, I, there are a lot of good episodes of Star Trek where it

24:55

takes one or two of our characters and puts them in a situation together

24:59

and I'd say this is a good one. We had seen Picard and Wesley in a shuttle before.

25:05

There is a previous episode where Picard has to go to Starfleet Medical

25:09

to have his artificial heart upgraded or replaced or serviced or something like

25:13

that and things go awry on that as well.

25:16

And it's a, it's an initial bonding point.

25:19

It's like when the walls first start to come down between Picard and Wesley.

25:23

So if Wesley's leaving, this is a very nice bookend in that sense to

25:27

see how far they've come by putting them in a similar situation together.

25:32

Rob: Awesome. Kevin: The cave set works well here; we're not in it too long.

25:36

They shoot it from a couple of angles that make it look like two different

25:39

rooms, and that works for me as well.

25:42

There's some nice styrofoam rocks falling on people, which

25:45

is always good as a bonus. Yeah, I rate this as an excellent cave episode.

25:51

Rob: Lovely. Kevin: What's your number two?

25:53

Rob: I'm going back into Deep Space Nine. We're jumping ahead to Season 6, Episode 11.

25:58

It is firing on all cylinders.

26:00

I'm going to deal with Waltz. Kevin: Waltz!

26:03

I don't remember this one. Rob: Oh, it is written by Ronald D.

26:06

Moore, it's directed by René Auberjonois.

26:09

is Sisko and Dukat stranded in a cave and the interrogation, the interplay, the

26:17

dance between the two of them, between Dukat and Sisko, while the rest of the

26:23

Deep Space Nine crew are desperately in the Defiant, trying to find Sisko before

26:28

they have to meet a convoy of unarmed ships from the Federation that are making

26:32

their way out of the Badlands and they'll be susceptible to Dominion attack, so

26:36

Worf is desperately trying to get his crew to find Sisko, before they have

26:42

this deadline to go and save the convoy.

26:45

The primary focus is the cave, it is the best part of the episode, and

26:50

it brings out the incredible genius that is Marc Alaimo as Gul Dukat,

26:55

who's been playing this, who played this role for the entire season.

26:58

He'd previously appeared as a Cardassian in a Next Gen episode, I believe?

27:04

Kevin: yeah. Rob: And his... Interpretation of Dukat, just so many layers and depth and

27:11

range and levels and nuance.

27:13

Kevin: He also played a Romulan in Star Trek The Next Generation

27:17

um, and a a kind of dog alien.

27:22

What were they called, the Anticans?

27:25

In a very early episode of TNG called Lonely Among Us.

27:29

So, yeah, he has played a lot of makeup roles.

27:32

Rob: But he also appeared out of makeup in far beyond the Stars,

27:35

Kevin: We also got to see him out of makeup in TNG's Time's Arrow.

27:40

The one where they go back in time and meet Guinan and Mark Twain

27:44

also has Marc Alaimo playing a character called Frederick LaRouque.

27:48

Rob: And of course, near the end of the whole run spoilers ahead, he shows

27:52

up very Bajoran as Dukat as well.

27:55

Kevin: So this episode, Waltz, I think it's coming back to me now.

27:58

This is the one where Dukat goes properly cuckoo, right?

28:02

Rob: Yeah, it took me a bit to adjust to because I hadn't been watching

28:05

it up until this point, so I just had to re remember where it is.

28:07

So at this point Deep Space Nine has been taken back.

28:11

Dukat has his daughter, who's part Cardassian, part Bajoran.

28:16

She'd been living on the station for a while.

28:18

They tried to develop a relationship between her and Garak

28:20

and that wasn't going to work. But she'd been looked after by Nerys and by Sisko and in the final episode she's

28:28

shot by Damar while the Federation are coming back to take Deep Space Nine.

28:32

She's killed and so that's at the end of season five.

28:36

So at the start of season six, Dukat's going through some stuff and this is

28:39

where they pretty much go, he's insane.

28:42

He's hearing and seeing people that aren't there.

28:45

So he's got Weyoun show up, he's got Kira showing up, he's got Damar showing up,

28:49

he's talking back and forth with them.

28:52

Kevin: This is a deft thing. A lot of these cave episodes, I'm noticing, including at least one

28:57

of the stories we saw in Lower Decks this week, serve to trap two

29:03

characters together and force them to spend a bunch of time together.

29:09

We were just talking about Wesley and Picard, stuck in a cave together.

29:13

And a lot of these are like that too. There's other kind of bottle episodes that work the same way.

29:18

Stuck in a turbolift, stuck in a shuttlecraft.

29:21

Two characters are stuck. And this certainly fits that template, but the hallucinations enable us to

29:29

bring in kind of guest stars into this situation of stuckness and mix it up.

29:34

Rob: Yes, exactly. And it really is a...

29:37

an episode about the journey that Dukat has been on, because he starts out

29:42

as a monster, they try and add these different layers that he has some morale

29:48

and some sense of justice within him.

29:51

But then he just, they throw him full blown crazy.

29:55

So it's a wonderful performance. And then as again, it descends into him fully embracing his insanity

30:02

Kevin: Does he have any moments of being sympathetic at this point, or is there

30:05

just too much water under the bridge by Rob: At the start, at the start when the cold opener scene when they're on the ship

30:11

that's heading towards Federation for the trial they set it up like Hannibal Lecter

30:16

type thing with Sisko heading in and, and,

30:19

Kevin: Marc Alaimo also played Hannibal Lecter in a— No, I'm just kidding.

30:24

Rob: Very nice. Very good. That would have been a sight to see.

30:27

Um, but he's on his knees, sort of like in a praying position, and he's

30:30

quite charming and calm and, and has a sense of menace about him.

30:35

But that's more coming off from Sisko. They're sort of like this tone, and when the death of his daughter is

30:39

brought up you do get a sense of loss and heartbreak and real pain

30:45

there, which is excellent work.

30:47

But then we just, see the truth about Dukat and he is well and truly gone.

30:52

And this is like the late 90s where it's like that whole insanity, crazy,

30:58

the darkness of that was quite prolific in, in culture, you had Se7en was

31:04

huge, as we mentioned, Silence of the Lambs in the early 90s, like started

31:08

this serial killer obsession with Kevin: Yeah, into the mind of a criminal.

31:14

Rob: Which we still are fascinated by now, but this was this big

31:16

push into mainstream cinema and television and it was everywhere.

31:21

You could see it everywhere. So it was the go to thing to explore and do it in a quite theatrical way.

31:27

Obviously it's directed by René Auberjonois who had one of the

31:30

most extensive theatre records in American theater history.

31:34

In television, directors are just a part of the cog.

31:37

They don't really have much of a chance to have their own flair, as in, with cinema.

31:43

You know what a David Fincher film is. You know what a Catherine Bigelow film is.

31:46

A Spielberg, a Scorsese, a, a Hitchcock film.

31:49

Kevin: Yeah, you hope they get to put a little spin on it, but

31:52

they're building on what's there. Rob: Yeah, and there's some beautiful moments in here where

31:55

you see René Auberjonois step up and go, this is my style.

32:00

So there's moments where Alaimo as Dukat moves and the camera follows him.

32:06

So he's there talking to himself and then the camera moves back and

32:09

the vision that he has in his head just sitting on a rock or something.

32:12

So that didn't need to be done. That could easily be cut and moved but René Auberjonois wanted those

32:17

shots to carry on and stay in that performance and keep that energy.

32:21

So you could see, it's very, a theater based performance.

32:24

Kevin: Yeah, you can almost imagine a dark corner of the stage and the

32:27

light coming up on the character you didn't realize was there.

32:31

Rob: Exactly. And it's very much a case of the actors were just on the side, they followed the

32:35

camera, they came back into shot, and when the camera came back, they were there.

32:39

And so that energy carries on as if it's all in one, it feels, those one big

32:44

longer takes really fills that energy out.

32:47

And it's written beautifully by Ronald D. Moore and Marc's performance as Gul Dukat is a masterpiece.

32:53

Kevin: That's probably something else you get to do in a cave episode

32:57

is because you spend more time on one set, you're lighting it once.

33:02

You're maybe even working with a more limited number of camera setups.

33:06

You can spend more time to get creative on the theater of the scenes

33:12

that you're going to put there. Rob: Most definitely.

33:15

Most definitely. So yeah, it's, for me, it's a highlight.

33:18

It does, especially at the ending it does have callbacks to another duet

33:24

type of episode, Duet, from season one.

33:28

That whole, vile, disgusting...

33:31

racist, prejudiced, dialogue, phrasing, rationalization that comes out of Dukat's

33:37

head is quite horrifying to see but delivered with such power and conviction.

33:42

And comparing it to Heart of Stone, which had, some nice performances,

33:47

but this is something that is a beautifully written script and

33:50

the performances are beautifully directed and it just elevates it even

33:54

higher than um, what it already was.

33:57

It's a great episode and, yeah, that cave element gives you that

34:00

claustrophobic element, that sense of, we're the only ones here.

34:04

It's a dangerous environment. And it's brutal as well.

34:06

Sisko gets beaten up with a pole like with an inch of his life by Dukat

34:11

and he's already injured and got phaser burns on his arms and plasma

34:15

burns on his arms it's yeah it's a brutal episode and Sisko is you know

34:19

taken through the ringer many times Kevin: I am gonna go back and watch that one tonight.

34:24

You've seduced me into it, Rob.

34:26

Rob: Oh. Kevin: I love Duet and another episode of that same pedigree that

34:32

I just am not as familiar with.

34:34

So I got to catch up on it. Rob: There's incredible stuff about how he justifies what he did within

34:41

the occupation and it just relates back directly to, it's so connected there

34:47

back to World War II and it's what happened there, what happened during,

34:52

in Germany of all that time, it's all that type of stuff, it's just that

34:56

time of this is what, it's a, it's a representation of all those issues.

35:03

Kevin: That is just a taste of the cave episodes of Star Trek.

35:06

I'm sure there are many in Voyager and Enterprise, and there have been

35:10

many in modern Star Trek as well.

35:12

The cave episode is not a lost art, even though we now have our

35:16

amazing CG volume to shoot within.

35:20

They can go nowhere and make it look like anywhere they want.

35:24

yeah, there are still caves to be had in Star Trek, if only because they force

35:29

our characters to spend time together.

35:32

Rob: We go down into the deep recesses of not a planet, not just a planet,