0:01

Hub and. Spoke Audio

0:03

collective. From

0:07

Quiet Juice and the Linguistic Society

0:10

of America. This is subtitled Stories

0:12

about languages and the people who

0:14

speak them. Have you

0:16

ever been somewhere where people speaking

0:18

a language that you don't understand?

0:21

But. You can make out a word

0:23

or two here in there because

0:25

that language has borrowed words from

0:27

English. And

0:35

then you ask about the work or I

0:37

do anyway. why it's there, why they using

0:40

it, don't you have a word for that

0:42

in your language And they say. Yeah,

0:44

of course we do. And

0:47

we use it. But.

0:51

When we use the English word.

0:54

It conveys. Something. Just.

0:57

Slightly different. Different.

1:00

Meaning maybe. Or. In

1:02

the associations or images that a

1:04

vacant Europe. So.

1:08

It's useful to have the English word

1:10

to. Today.

1:15

The. Story of one such word. The.

1:17

English word black. And white.

1:20

So many French people use it.

1:22

This. By the way, his ama Jacobs The

1:24

used to live in France. At

1:27

to give you a sense of how it's used

1:29

I went to ask around it a small film

1:31

festival called the Black Movie Summer. Black.

1:34

A The word that that many brand people

1:36

there now you is commonly you know is

1:38

that is so common. Link: bathroom

1:40

you a dancer. I think it's

1:42

about culture as well as it out

1:44

about using mobile. The time is just

1:46

the motor trend. The way to this.

1:49

A lie back. Like

1:51

that in a divorce. A

1:53

trendy way to saying wire

1:55

only associations with African American

1:57

music and culture agrees. catering.

2:00

That also the new consider

2:02

him was more. Black

2:04

see things in a bit better perceived,

2:06

never word and large. She describes it

2:08

as less in your face or less

2:10

direct. I tend to think of this

2:13

is sort of like putting the wording

2:15

quotes when you use the english like,

2:17

okay, it's a kind of faulty artificial

2:19

racial category bite, you know, Black. So.

2:22

Is it's like you're not really owning

2:24

the word fully. the word block? You're

2:26

You're just. you're recognizing the. That.

2:29

It's not a perfect description of what you're trying

2:31

to say, is that it. Yeah,

2:33

essentially are are just acknowledging. It's

2:35

something he made. Experience has been

2:37

perceived as black. But. Started

2:39

questioning it at the same time. I'll

2:41

actually let and seen be explain this

2:44

a little more. Seats a sociology professor

2:46

at Purdue who studies France and specifically

2:48

ethnicity and upward mobility among descendants of

2:51

North African immigrants and in the course

2:53

of a lot of fieldwork says heard

2:55

a lot of people who she thinks

2:58

they're avoiding using a term that identifies.

3:00

The person's race in conversation.

3:03

To say I'm African American, it would be

3:05

considered impolite. You were just and said say

3:07

she's American woman. Pointing. Out differences

3:09

between people in France that it's

3:11

not polite. So. It

3:13

struck beaming all the more when she

3:15

started interviews for her research back in

3:17

two thousand and eight to hear people

3:19

use the word black that's what I

3:21

first started hearing and Iraq directly asking

3:23

my respondents were why use this term

3:25

and not you know are like a

3:28

not In other words, why use the

3:30

word of English? Were a black and

3:32

not the French word for blacks. And

3:34

it was just the and people to displayed as a matter of

3:36

factly of like. Oh well it's considered very rude

3:39

use know our it's that you know new

3:41

so black as much more acceptable. Wait,

3:43

A minute I feel like I gotta have no I

3:45

don't get any more like. How did

3:47

this would get into the vocabulary in the

3:49

first place? So. Actually, first,

3:51

there's some history that helps explain

3:54

why the French don't like using.

3:56

Certain words set to Americans might

3:58

seem fairly neutral. We're talking

4:00

about racial classifications that were made by

4:02

French society in. The. Past and

4:05

these enables really ugly

4:07

things. The French

4:09

social sciences were based

4:11

own the existence of

4:13

races at a time

4:15

when the Colonial Empire

4:17

was a thriving. This

4:19

is Pat Vi, a historian at

4:22

sea On suppose a university in

4:24

Paris, there's a time of racial

4:26

ideology used to justify and organize

4:28

the French colonies and Sub Saharan

4:31

Africa, North Africa in parts of

4:33

Asia and then during World War

4:35

Two the Nazis and the Vc

4:37

collaborationist collected ethnic him for me

4:39

since and of course use it

4:42

to deport people to concentration camps

4:44

after. The end of

4:46

the war digitalisation period,

4:48

the French believed that

4:50

we all had entered

4:53

a new a period

4:55

during which we live

4:57

in a colorblind society

4:59

that skin color or

5:01

racial differences do not

5:04

matter or to not

5:06

exist. So. There are these

5:08

idealistic, good motives that become an

5:10

early source of the skittishness around

5:12

differentiating people which shows up today

5:14

in all sorts of ways. The

5:16

French government today does not had

5:18

any line on its senses for

5:20

race, and that's by law. Basically.

5:23

For alive people, it's the less said about

5:25

race in France, the better. But

5:28

at the same time at the

5:30

French, have always been fascinated by

5:32

racial issues in the U S.

5:34

were not only do we have

5:36

result statistics, but this long long

5:38

history of confrontations around. For a thrill a

5:40

sense. And when the word

5:42

black first comes to France, it's among

5:45

and intellectual crowd. In the sixties and

5:47

seventies, they're following American news like the

5:49

Black Power movement. But. It's

5:52

nice the word itself. Doesn't get

5:54

much traction. That. Big

5:56

developments that really establishes Black

5:58

in. The French vocabulary. And

6:01

much later with the. Arrival

6:03

of American rap and hip hop. Yes!

6:17

especially popular early I need. More

6:19

serious running Paris. That are bound.

6:24

by the eating of the the the we're

6:26

regions have like a lot of in a

6:28

live. North of North Africa Africa. Some

6:31

places to. The majority in certain

6:33

projects. Morandi, why is he three

6:35

in his suit He says rap and

6:38

hip hop such time and inspire a

6:40

lot of young French artist. In these

6:42

areas, the major question for a lot

6:44

of young people in France has to

6:46

do with basically being and have targeted

6:48

by the police. I'm feeling, you know

6:50

innocence, like an occupied territory in their

6:53

projects and increasingly in conflict with the

6:55

police. and since not such a common

6:57

theme also an American Hip hop I

6:59

think that in some ways the translation

7:01

moment really becomes that American hip hop

7:03

is a way of talking about. Must

7:17

remove from push of. Uncle Lowly

7:19

and who grew up in one

7:22

of those big troubled housing projects

7:24

outside Paris. We talked in Kathy

7:26

in Paris, where he told me

7:28

that early on the first really

7:30

high achieving black man he remembers

7:32

encountering were both African American. Or

7:35

lose deals with Michael Jackson Carl

7:37

Lewis be eighties Olympic track athletes

7:39

and of course Michael Jackson said

7:42

zoo person to more a mint

7:44

is important to they were. They

7:46

choose a black man who could

7:49

give me a positive image of

7:51

was black he says susan. The

7:54

women interpreting for low yeah, it's his

7:56

friends yeah Sides: yolo the word black

7:58

they go and tix. In Cook,

8:00

I'm That alert. Connected with Black

8:03

American success in sports and music,

8:05

but simultaneously lowliest. said. He and

8:07

his friends identified more in their

8:10

own personal lives with other aspects

8:12

of American culture lawyer in his

8:15

friends. They also. Hang out and

8:17

games of young guys from their

8:19

own neighborhoods to to disclose foods

8:22

for love to do so. Ah.

8:24

Don't really want to say I wouldn't

8:26

do that with a bad thing that

8:28

a this letter what exactly was like

8:30

the confrontation with whatever was this will

8:32

suffer authority for the reason lowly abroad

8:34

up this period with me at all

8:36

was because of the name his game

8:38

so to go buy back. Then the black

8:41

boy. That was the name of

8:43

his game. the blackboard. New Good luck

8:45

with the. Sicily. Be both. Ah

8:48

and then others of floodgates was cool

8:50

dad the bullies. Must

8:52

proceed to see. You

8:55

next month ago says on the hook

8:57

with office or lot of rid of

8:59

that he was only through this in

9:01

this Led black said we could find

9:03

a minimum of. Thread.

9:07

Since. Then lawyer has come the

9:09

feel very differently about the use

9:11

of the word black in France.

9:13

Will come back to that but

9:15

to continue our history of how

9:17

this word went mainstream. Fact.

9:20

Is Laura zebra of Duke? Who

9:23

I actually got in touch with because he

9:25

wrote a book about soccer? It's

9:29

club soccer and tire and it's

9:31

a better, wildly successful. French national

9:33

team that won the world in

9:36

Nanking. He's. The

9:39

first World Cup ever victory for France. They

9:44

win, win win at home. They win because

9:46

of basically black and North African players scoring

9:49

goals in a lily entourage and the semi

9:51

final and done in the final. You

9:54

know? So suddenly these figures become

9:56

in a massive heroes and society.

9:58

And the slogan. Come

10:01

Now is to describe the the French

10:03

team as black blown The. Lack

10:08

of film. there is a play on the

10:10

stripes of the French flag. Which

10:12

are blue block rouge for blue.

10:15

White and Red but then

10:17

go with his keys. Slang

10:19

term for North African replaces

10:21

read or lose. So you

10:23

have Black bloc. Bell. which

10:26

you can just make out of San Chanting. To

10:28

the Tv cameras, absolute chaos around

10:30

the earth is violence after the

10:32

fire. I

10:36

will never see relativism first coins it for

10:38

years. find a journalist or something if it

10:40

emerges like I don't know from. for the

10:43

culture I guess in a way. That.

10:45

Zebra points out this is the same time

10:47

as the rise of the anti immigrant French

10:50

right The far right leader back then some

10:52

as he live ten questions whether the players

10:54

know how to sing the national anthem the

10:56

must say as and so the slogan also

10:59

be some the way to express support for

11:01

this exceptionally diverse team that is killing it

11:03

for France on the soccer field. It

11:06

also evokes is bigger idealistic vision

11:08

as France itself as the coming

11:11

together as. Black

11:17

bloc the everyone her got forgiven

11:19

for the celebrations for an intermediate

11:21

roped off the road races with

11:24

of them figure celebrations since the

11:26

liberation of her that because of

11:28

that I think that block with

11:30

it's really sort of stuff the

11:32

me imaginary as black as just

11:34

a way to describe you know

11:36

people of African descent in the

11:38

society in a way that's positive.

11:40

And. So it be Kansas Worried that all

11:42

kinds of people use instead of new are.

11:45

Not. just people of color in the band

11:47

your by french people of all It's

12:13

podcast recommendation time. This week I

12:15

want to tell you about plodding

12:17

through the presidents, which tells lesser

12:19

known stories about some of the

12:21

early presidents and founders of the

12:23

United States and the people around

12:25

them. And boy are

12:27

there stories. There's galore.

12:30

Thomas Jefferson's obsession with

12:32

wool. The love letters

12:35

of some presidents. John Quincy Adams.

12:37

And the surprisingly saucy Warren

12:39

G. Harding. Winston

12:42

Churchill's possibly nude, probably

12:44

apocryphal White House encounter

12:46

with the ghost of

12:48

Abraham Lincoln. There

12:50

are fabulous episodes on all these,

12:53

which you're going to love however

12:55

much or little like me you

12:57

know about America's presidents. Your

13:00

hosts are Howard and Jessica Dory.

13:02

Howard's a history blogger. Jessica has

13:04

a very nice line in irreverence.

13:06

They know how to tell a

13:08

well-researched story and they have great

13:10

guests too. I'm working my

13:13

way through the entire back catalogue of

13:15

plodding through the presidents and I hope

13:17

it never ends. Listen

13:20

and subscribe wherever you're listening to

13:22

this. Today,

13:28

the hopefulness of that black blanc

13:30

beurge slogan, it's something

13:32

people look at with nostalgia but

13:34

can also seem naive to a

13:36

lot of people. Because

13:39

in case you haven't noticed, France has

13:41

not solved its racial tensions. The

13:44

change in the 90s and 2000s was a

13:46

subtle one and everyone's not suddenly at ease

13:48

talking about race or religion. This

13:51

is partly because the hostile

13:53

political environment that inspired that

13:55

slogan has persisted and arguably

13:57

hardened. French historian Yair

14:00

says today can feel a

14:02

lot like the 90s before

14:04

that unifying World Cup victory. We

14:07

also live in a political

14:09

moment when the extreme right

14:11

and the national front are

14:14

very strong. The national front,

14:16

that's France's far-right party that's been gaining

14:18

vote share since the mid-90s. Issues

14:21

related to identity, being

14:23

raised all the time,

14:25

national identity, what makes

14:27

us French and so

14:30

on and so forth, so that

14:32

in a way any word or

14:34

distinction that may

14:37

imply that French

14:40

society is dividing longer

14:43

racial lines is often

14:45

seen as suspect. But

14:47

at the same time, there are these

14:50

problems that follow racial lines. The

14:52

Jai tends to talk about these

14:54

shared experiences of heavy-handed policing, housing

14:57

and job discrimination. In

14:59

many ways, French blacks want

15:02

to be visible and invisible.

15:06

They want to be invisible because

15:08

they don't want to be subjected

15:10

to any form of discrimination. They

15:12

want to be like anyone. They

15:14

don't want to be singled out

15:16

by the police, for example, in

15:18

a train station. But they also want

15:21

to be visible. They want the issues

15:23

dealt with that are to do with

15:25

their being black. So it

15:27

is this kind of minority paradox,

15:30

visibility and invisibility,

15:33

which is at the heart of the use

15:35

of the word noir, sometimes

15:38

the word black. Jai

15:43

isn't against the word black, but

15:45

he thinks noir is just more

15:47

accurate, more precisely about the

15:49

French experience. He

15:51

also points out its use in

15:54

a positive way by historic cultural

15:56

movements of French-speaking African and Caribbean

15:58

intellectuals. Lolia,

16:00

who used to be part of the Black

16:02

Boys, who is now in his mid-40s, has

16:05

come to feel very strongly that he doesn't

16:07

like the word Black. He's now

16:09

a social worker and also an

16:12

anti-racism activist. He says

16:14

Black does conjure up American success,

16:16

but it also implies that racial

16:19

inequities are somehow not French. The

16:23

perverted effect of using Black instead of

16:26

noir is just to evade the racism

16:28

in France and to pretend that

16:30

racism is only an Anglophone thing,

16:32

only an American thing. So far

16:34

from being academic, language, he thinks,

16:36

really affects how people identify problems

16:39

and how easy or difficult it

16:41

is to mobilize and do something

16:43

about them. And

16:45

Jean Beaman, the sociologist, says another

16:48

argument for finding the right language,

16:50

whatever that is, to talk

16:52

about what Americans would think of as racial

16:54

or ethnic identities, is

16:56

that more recently, France has

16:59

come to overemphasize religion, Islam

17:01

in particular. Islam

17:04

is just everything is coded as Islam. Every

17:07

problematic threat, I think seen as a threat

17:09

to French identity or French society is coded

17:11

in the level of Islam, and I think

17:13

people are really talking about race and ethnicity,

17:16

but of course it's not polite or not acceptable

17:19

to do so openly. Unfortunately,

17:21

she thinks that the conversation about religion

17:23

has become such a big part of

17:25

the news cycle and public debate. There's

17:28

not a lot of energy left right now

17:30

for tackling other issues. Black

17:33

Lives Matter! Black Lives

17:35

Matter! Black Lives Matter!

17:38

Beaman pointed out that recently some young

17:40

Black activists in France have started to

17:42

use the phrase Black Lives Matter. It

17:45

was chanted at protests after the death of a

17:47

young man in police custody. It

17:49

piggybacked on the American conversation about police-involved

17:52

violence that has gotten a lot of

17:54

coverage in France. Maybe a

17:56

help. But It also comes

17:58

with American baggage. I'm

18:00

hearing the French experience with an American

18:02

situation that at least in the area

18:05

of police violence the activists themselves believe

18:07

is much much worse. As.

18:09

An example, shortly after the death

18:11

of young man outside Paris someone

18:13

from his own neighborhood, he described

18:15

police and us to me as

18:17

shooting black men like sickens. Him

18:20

I'm shooting at the ground with his fingers. This

18:25

is the complicated thing about taking

18:27

in the United States as an

18:30

inspiration linguistically or otherwise. It's simultaneously

18:32

seen as this place where blocks

18:34

can be very successful, but French

18:37

people are also very. Very aware

18:39

of the problems Black Americans deal

18:41

with. Talking. With racial

18:43

ethnic minorities, there's very much a sense

18:45

of a sort of pride and what

18:47

they considered the sort of American Civil

18:50

Rights movement and trajectory that either one

18:52

could say or it's I guess they

18:54

would say it's led, led from your

18:56

Martin Luther King to Rock Obama been

18:58

our first African American President. But.

19:01

was interesting or that in in that. They don't

19:03

want a sort of American style identity

19:05

politics. I think there's really a wrestling

19:07

in French minority communities of how do

19:09

we ever ego see our version of

19:11

your friends Barack Obama for example with

19:14

out the sort of the exact same

19:16

identity politics that we haven't United States.

19:21

And the question running underneath all

19:23

this still to be determined is

19:25

what vocabulary So de France adapt.

19:28

Whether. It's black or something else

19:30

or both. What are the terms

19:33

going to be that fast Described

19:35

friends? Not necessarily. American reality.

19:38

But also signs the French. Ama

19:44

Jacobs's and would ago and multi media

19:46

reporter who today is based in Montreal.

19:49

She's also a fabulous illustrator. I'll post

19:51

links to her work in the shown

19:53

us that this episode. since

19:57

emma reported the story and twenty

19:59

seventeen You could say a lot has

20:01

changed and nothing has. After

20:04

the Black Lives Matter movement went

20:06

global, French soccer players took the

20:08

knee. But unlike, say, the English

20:10

national soccer team, the French team

20:12

was divided about the gesture. And

20:14

after a couple of years, they

20:16

abandoned it. And

20:18

the French ultra-right National Front

20:20

party is becoming ever more

20:23

popular with voters. The party

20:25

is polling strongly ahead of

20:27

European elections this summer. The

20:29

next presidential election, when they're likely

20:31

to also do well, will be in

20:33

2027. Through

20:36

all this, the word Black in

20:38

France remains popular. Alison

20:44

Shao manages subtitles, social

20:46

media, and writes the

20:48

newsletter, which you can

20:51

sign up for at

20:53

subtitlepod.com/newsletter. That's subtitlepod.com/newsletter. Thanks

20:55

also to everyone at

20:58

the World Public Radio

21:00

Program. Subtitle

21:03

is a member of the Hub

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and Spoke Audio Collective, where a

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and Spoke podcast really have

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That's it for today. Thanks for listening. See

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you in a couple of weeks.