0:00

Welcome to Innovations in Leadership , a Success

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League Radio production . This is

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a podcast focused on Customer Success

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and the leaders who are designing and implementing

0:08

best practices in our field . This

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podcast is brought to you by The Success League , a

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consulting and training firm focused on developing

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customer success programs that drive revenue

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. My name is Kristen Hayer

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and I'm the host of Innovations in Leadership and

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the founder and CEO of The Success

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League and Parul Bhandari

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is the founder of South Asian Success .

0:54

I'm so happy to be back . It's been an interesting

0:56

year , right ? What's to talk about ?

0:58

It has . Before we get started . I know

1:00

you shared this last time , but we probably have new

1:02

listeners now , so can you share how

1:04

you ended up in the field of customer success ?

1:07

Yes , absolutely so . I've spent most of my career

1:09

being customer-facing , started out

1:11

in ergonomics consulting and

1:14

it turned out that the company I was working at

1:16

turned into a SaaS startup , so my first CS

1:18

role was actually building a CS team for that

1:20

ergonomics SaaS startup . Since

1:23

then , I've just enjoyed working with

1:25

startups , working with mid-size tech companies

1:27

and helping to build and grow

1:30

CSMs and CS teams .

1:32

That's great . I know a lot has

1:34

changed since last year when we talked

1:36

. It wasn't a great year for a lot of companies

1:38

. I think there were a bunch of layoffs across tech

1:40

and specifically in Customer

1:43

Success . Last year we tackled

1:45

this topic because those layoffs

1:47

were starting . I

1:51

guess I am curious why do you think this continues

1:53

to be an important topic now

1:56

that our field is probably a little smaller , but

1:58

why do you think it still needs to mature ?

2:00

That's a great question . I think we talked about this

2:03

also in the context of probably our

2:05

points that we're going to cover here . But I

2:07

think as a CS organization , we all

2:09

know this . As a department , we are not that old . We

2:11

are only probably started officially in the

2:13

early 2000 . I think what that does for us

2:15

is that gives us that uncertainty

2:18

and that immaturity , but unfortunately

2:20

, businesses suffered in 2023

2:22

. It doesn't help to

2:24

have an immature and , if you want

2:26

to call us like a toddler at the table

2:29

amongst other teams that are well

2:31

established , that have their metrics together , that

2:33

know what they're going to do and that set

2:35

out to do it . We

2:37

saw , to be frank , sales

2:40

teams fail last year . Here

2:42

were our goals in January . Ope didn't

2:44

meet that and they were probably put under

2:46

tough scrutiny , but

2:48

they probably had quick game

2:50

plans to change that . I think in

2:52

CS , we're all scrambling

2:54

. We were scrambling or maybe even still are

2:57

. You hear about this focus on

2:59

retention , which I know we're going to talk about , but

3:01

I think about that and people are like this

3:03

is new , this is new . It's really not new

3:05

. It doesn't have to be new . I think we have to just

3:07

recognize that we , as CS teams

3:10

do too many different things and we need to

3:12

really probably start to bring a little

3:14

maturity , like let's get into adolescence by

3:16

now , because I think it'll help us .

3:20

Yeah , I think back to when I started The

3:22

Success League , which now , believe it or not

3:24

, it's been eight and a half years . I was

3:26

having this conversation with people eight

3:28

and a half years ago and it's shocking

3:30

to me that I'm getting into my next

3:33

question . I wanted to ask you , but it's shocking

3:35

to me , that teams are still not

3:37

owning renewals . I

3:40

guess I would love your

3:42

thoughts on the topic of CS teams

3:44

owning renewals . I feel like this is one

3:46

area where there's just a

3:48

massive gap in our field

3:51

. Tell me what you think about that

3:53

.

3:54

I mean , owning renewals is the natural progression

3:56

of things . But I'll be honest and tell you that my first

3:58

CS team we didn't own renewals

4:01

. We tried and we stumbled

4:03

. It wasn't a great delivery , so

4:05

it got taken back up by a renewals

4:07

person like a standalone

4:10

individual . I look back at

4:12

that experience and I remember going like , oh

4:14

, maybe renewals isn't right for CS . But

4:16

what I think we missed is that we

4:18

didn't train anybody . We just handed them these

4:20

renewals and we said like go and figure it out

4:23

. But just like anything in CS

4:25

where we have to train on how to do a good

4:27

EBR or train on how to run

4:29

a playbook or just train on how we

4:31

engage with our customers , we probably

4:33

need to take more time and do more training and set

4:35

our team up for success . But I think it's

4:38

just the natural progression in the customer's

4:40

journey . By separating out the customer

4:42

when it comes to the financial discussion

4:45

, you're doing two things . One , you're segmenting

4:47

out your CSM , you're not giving them the hard skills

4:49

. So then they really don't understand that

4:51

world and I think that's where a lot of people have

4:53

been , unfortunately is just like kind

4:55

of happy , go lucky , I don't need to know this , so I don't

4:58

worry about it because it's not my responsibility , but

5:00

number two , at the end of the day , you're

5:03

that partner of that customer . So who

5:05

better to help drive what they

5:08

should be renewing on or what they should be possibly

5:10

expanding on in the future and actually

5:12

bridging the gap between what

5:14

the customer wants and needs and what you can deliver

5:17

as a company ? I think the CSM is the best person

5:19

. I think we're still going to see a lot of

5:21

disparity in the size of organizations

5:23

, like I think there are going to be large organizations

5:26

that are still going to segment out renewals and

5:28

have separate retention teams that are

5:30

going to do their thing , but more and more the

5:32

CSM , at least , should be a part of that conversation

5:34

, right , at least part of understanding that , and

5:36

have metrics tied to their compensation

5:39

based on it , which I know you're also like a fan of right

5:41

.

5:41

Oh , yeah , well , yeah , and I guess how

5:43

I think of it is if your CS team

5:46

in my mind , a customer

5:48

success team's primary objective

5:50

is to make sure that customers

5:52

see value from the solution

5:54

that they bought , they should be getting a return

5:56

on their investment . If they haven't completely

5:58

recouped their investment

6:00

in a year , it should at the very

6:03

least be on the near-term horizon

6:05

. And that is the job

6:07

of a customer success person is to demonstrate

6:10

in concrete financial

6:12

terms that return on investment . And

6:15

if you're doing that and you're good at it

6:17

, renewal should be just

6:19

an outcome of that . The objective should

6:22

not be renew them and get

6:24

money . The objective should be prove value

6:26

so that renewal is a no-brainer

6:28

at the end of a year or the

6:31

end of three years or whatever , like it

6:33

should be so simple and I think it should

6:35

be at the end of a year or two . That is a customer

6:37

success objective . That is

6:39

also a whole company objective

6:41

, because it can't just fall on the CS

6:43

team , because it's not a sale

6:45

. It's not like a new sale

6:48

. It has more inputs

6:50

than a new sale . I think when you have a

6:53

team like a renewal team , you're

6:55

treating it like you would treat a

6:57

new sale and you're discounting

7:00

all of the inputs that lead

7:02

up to it . That would make a customer

7:05

want to renew . I

7:07

think that's a mistake . The CS

7:09

team should be focused

7:11

on it and it should just be a

7:14

fairly easy task because of

7:16

all the work they've put in in the year

7:18

or two years or three years leading up to that

7:20

renewal . I

7:22

totally agree with you . I think it needs

7:25

to be something that CS teams are accountable

7:27

for , just like they're accountable for proving that

7:29

ROI . A lot of leaders

7:31

are very nervous about this . It

7:33

leads to my next question too , which is who owns

7:36

revenue ? I facilitated a panel

7:38

discussion this week where the topic of revenue

7:40

was really front and center . We had an investor

7:43

on the panel , we had a CFO on the panel

7:45

, we had this TCO on the panel , then

7:47

I'm a CEO . It was interesting

7:49

because all three of the panelists

7:52

thought that CS should own at

7:54

a minimum the renewal revenue , if

7:56

not all the revenue of the company after

7:58

that initial sale . But everyone

8:00

on the panel also agreed that it isn't happening

8:03

in general practice today . I

8:06

guess why do you think that is and what can be

8:08

done about it ?

8:09

Well , I think one is like comp plans

8:11

. It's a lot of work to change your comp plan . I

8:14

think there's also people don't want CS

8:16

teams to have a quota because it

8:18

changes . I don't know , there's probably a bunch of reasons . But

8:20

I'm really glad to hear your panelists all

8:22

say that because I think it is not

8:25

as common to hear

8:27

that . But maybe it wasn't as common to hear that

8:29

even last year . I'd say I think there's

8:32

still confusion based on comp models

8:34

, based on a CFO actually having

8:36

to go make a lot of change to comp models . It's

8:38

more work for them . In the short term what

8:40

you gain is amazing . When it comes to

8:42

a CS team owning revenue

8:44

, I had a CS team that slowly crept

8:47

into the ownership of the expansion

8:49

revenue . We had the renewals . We just slowly

8:52

kept going in . What it did was two things

8:54

that were really great that I think we have to take the

8:57

fear out for the sales teams , the AEs

8:59

or the AMs . They're worried about their

9:01

loss of revenue . I think that a lot

9:03

of sales teams and sales leadership will

9:05

actually push back on CS owning expansion because

9:08

that's like a piece of the pie that they're not going

9:10

to necessarily get . But number one

9:12

is , if you're not doing expansion , you can focus on your real

9:14

job , which is generating new business

9:16

, and hopefully that new business is pretty big . Number

9:19

two you aren't

9:21

distracted away from your

9:23

core work as a salesperson , but you

9:25

meanwhile , you have a partner that can really

9:27

do it and do it well . I

9:30

think if you're going to take on all the revenue after

9:32

renewal and beyond , there is

9:34

a bit of training that comes with that , because I've

9:37

seen two things go wrong . One is a

9:39

CS team that became fully focused on

9:42

quotas . They got quotas and then

9:44

they shifted their focus . They weren't actually

9:46

able to deliver value any longer . They were

9:48

always looking for and listening in a

9:50

conversation for like is there a sale to

9:52

be made in this ? You have to

9:55

strike that balance of what is

9:57

the right comp model for them so

9:59

that they are not fully incentivized

10:01

by being a seller , that they're incentivized

10:03

by delivering value . Then I feel like the

10:05

second piece is training . We talked about

10:08

this and I think you're passionate about this too . It's like we

10:10

need to not only teach our teams what

10:12

it means when they add this revenue , but

10:14

what it means to retain and

10:17

how we can benefit them in the long

10:19

term too . But I think the hardest

10:21

skills that CS teams struggle

10:23

with . I think people are non-confrontational at

10:25

times . They don't want to negotiate hard

10:27

, they want to deliver what's the easiest thing

10:29

that the customer will say yes to . You have

10:31

to go back and do negotiations one-on-one . I

10:34

talked about that somewhere else recently

10:36

where I did a class in business school and

10:38

negotiations is like the best class . Everybody learned

10:41

something from that class because it's something

10:43

that we take for granted . So I think if we

10:45

do it , we have to make sure and give the organization

10:48

assurances that we're training the

10:50

team and that we're equipping our teams with

10:52

the right tools to still keep

10:54

customer value happening .

10:57

Yeah , I agree . I think for some

10:59

people that may mean that they may

11:01

be in CS now and they maybe don't want to

11:03

be in CS in the future . I think that's okay

11:05

because I think the field is changing

11:08

and the field isn't going to change

11:10

around you , the individual . The field is going

11:12

to change around the business needs

11:14

. So there may be people who

11:16

decide that what they really like best

11:19

about CS is

11:21

providing service to customers and so

11:23

maybe they move into more of like a service team

11:25

, and then there's going to be people who

11:27

like the more tactical

11:29

, support , reactive type roles

11:32

and they're going to move into support , and I think

11:34

that's okay . I think the people who

11:36

stay in CS as a function

11:38

are going to need to have

11:41

new and different skill sets and

11:43

I'm going to skip ahead because I was going to ask you about

11:45

this , but we're already on this topic , so let's

11:47

talk about it . So a topic

11:49

that came through on that panel discussion , as well

11:52

as the financial piece , was that CSMs

11:54

don't always have the right skill set for

11:56

the way the field has changed over the past few

11:59

years , so skills that seem to be missing

12:01

that sort of surfaced in our discussion , were things

12:04

like technical expertise , especially

12:06

in a heavily tech-focused company

12:08

or business , or

12:10

consulting expertise , which was sort of an across-the-board

12:13

need . What do you see as other

12:15

skills that you think are needed and how can

12:17

we build those skills in our current teams

12:20

? Or do you think we just need to recruit

12:22

differently , or is it a little

12:24

bit of both ?

12:25

I think it's a little bit about . As I mentioned , I started out

12:27

in an ergonomics consulting firm . I was just

12:29

sharing the story with someone like Back then

12:31

there were no csm's people with

12:33

prior csm's experience . There were

12:35

very few ergonomists that were looking

12:38

to be csm's at that time , right , so

12:40

we couldn't hire people with the domain

12:42

expertise . But what we had Was availability

12:45

of awesome training resources on

12:47

occupational ergonomics . That was something the company

12:49

had invested a lot of good effort and time , and

12:51

when you have good training

12:53

available , I think you can actually

12:55

train people to do jobs

12:57

that are seemingly challenging , right , or , you

13:00

know , require some sort of domain expertise . I

13:02

think it was games at university at the time . We use

13:04

that those like the only thing out there so to

13:06

train people on customer success , and then we use our

13:08

own ergonomic tools To train people

13:10

on the technical stuff . But if

13:12

you don't have the good

13:15

onboarding Available on

13:17

your industry or your platform , you have to

13:19

find that . So I think that's like , at a minimum

13:21

, a lot of startups , I think at this , wrong , because

13:23

they will hire people on and just kind of

13:25

toss them in and , like customers will speak

13:27

about using these acronyms . They have no idea what they are

13:29

. That is scary to me

13:31

. Right ? You want your team to be set up for success

13:34

, to meet that customer where they want to be

13:36

met . But on the note of like

13:38

CS training , like , what are some course

13:40

skills ? Like I already pointed out , I think negotiations

13:43

is a course skill that everyone could learn , right

13:45

. I think , understanding that consultative

13:48

approach that you kind of mentioned right , taking

13:50

on like hey , how do I not

13:52

just quickly try to solve problems ? Right

13:54

, and how do I actually understand what their ? I

13:57

think you could even do trainings on like how

13:59

to run a great goals meeting and do

14:01

a good success plan , because I don't think everybody

14:04

does that very well either . In

14:07

the middle , on the answer of like , do

14:09

you need to hire somebody with the exact skills that

14:11

I sense that we're changing

14:13

? Like CS is changing , right , we've now had

14:15

Enough tenure that you can find

14:17

people with customer success experience

14:19

. People want that . That

14:21

doesn't mean that you can't be trained into

14:24

it , right ? I think there are highly

14:26

skilled people from other industries that are willing

14:28

to learn and can be trained into it . So I'm definitely

14:30

in the middle .

14:31

Yeah , I think you know I will

14:33

say this because we have a training program

14:35

for CS professionals and

14:37

I'll share in a minute kind of what we are training

14:39

people on . But I do think people can

14:42

Be trained on a lot

14:44

of things maybe not their

14:46

perspective though , and so you

14:48

know when I think about this . You know if there's

14:51

a person out there who's on a CS team

14:53

and what they really love is , they really love

14:55

it when customers call them and they

14:57

can fix their problems , that

15:00

is great , and that is technical

15:02

support , and it's okay

15:04

to love that and it's okay to have that

15:06

be what you're passionate about

15:08

. I think sometimes we look down

15:10

on support teams and I think that is Unfair

15:13

, because that is a team that

15:15

is equal to customer

15:18

success in terms of its importance in

15:20

a business . However , it

15:22

is a very different role than a consulting

15:25

type of a role , which is what customer success

15:27

is proactive , it's consultative

15:30

, it needs to be that way , and I think it's really

15:32

hard for somebody who loves reactive

15:34

work to sort of shift gears

15:37

and suddenly become proactive , and

15:39

so I think if there's a mindset

15:41

block there , that might

15:43

prevent somebody from learning , even if you

15:45

do provide a whole lot of training on

15:48

the topics . That said , if you have

15:50

someone with the right proactive mindset , all

15:52

of these skills can be trained . You

15:54

can learn technology . Nobody

15:57

just popped out of their mother's

15:59

womb knowing all this stuff and

16:01

or being good at it like salespeople

16:03

even you know . Everyone thinks , oh , there's such a good

16:06

salesperson , they're so personable . Those

16:08

are all learned skills . Salespeople

16:10

who are really good at selling are not

16:12

always the most personable ones . They're the

16:14

ones that actually use the skills

16:17

that they've learned in sales

16:19

training , and so those are all skills that can

16:21

be taught , and I strongly believe

16:23

that you can teach people how to make sure

16:25

they're delivering value , how to communicate

16:28

effectively , how to work

16:30

in an organization and weave your way

16:32

through multiple levels of Contacts

16:34

and create lots of contacts . Those are

16:36

all skills , and I'm

16:38

very passionate about this because we teach

16:40

classes on this stuff . So if anybody's listening

16:42

, you're like how would I learn that ? You can go

16:45

to our website for starters and take a look

16:47

at that . But there's classes that we

16:49

teach on communication . We teach classes

16:51

on selling skills . We teach classes on

16:53

how to prove value

16:55

and how to be that trusted advisor for your

16:57

customers . We teach classes for

16:59

leaders on things like how to understand

17:01

financial reports , how to lead a

17:03

team of people who are doing selling

17:06

activities , how to lead

17:08

a team of other leaders . So if

17:10

you're moving into a director role , how do you

17:12

take on other leaders ? So there is

17:14

training out there and shameless

17:16

plug , go check out our training offerings

17:19

. But I believe strongly in in

17:21

people's trainability if they're open to learning

17:23

. There's a lot of resources out there and

17:25

there's formal programs like ours

17:27

. There's also a lot of free

17:30

resources and blogs . I

17:32

feel like there are endless , endless

17:34

podcasts and blog posts and

17:36

stuff in our field . So there's lots

17:38

and lots of ways that people can learn . They

17:41

just have to be willing to go look for those things

17:43

. So , yeah , ok

17:45

, I want to jump back to the question that we kind of skipped

17:47

, so we talked , as

17:49

we were prepping for this call , about reporting structure

17:52

. Where do you think that

17:54

CS should report to ? You

17:56

know , if you're thinking like a senior CS leader , do

17:59

they report ? Should they be a CCO

18:01

, or should they report to

18:03

another C level person ? Should they report to the CEO

18:05

? What are your thoughts ?

18:07

I know I think last year I said something

18:10

different , but I think one I'm

18:12

team CCO all the way right

18:14

. So like or team CX or whatever

18:16

you want to call it , but call it something and

18:18

I think , have the ownership at the top

18:20

for the customer facing teams

18:22

, because I firmly believe it's an unfair

18:25

representation if you don't but

18:27

many people don't , and I think we're

18:29

finding people are still using operations

18:32

. I think I may have said I'm team operations

18:34

over sales last year . I think I'm changing my story

18:37

this year because I actually feel like if

18:39

I had to choose between an existing team

18:41

, I'd almost want to be on the revenue team , because what

18:44

you are as a CSM and I think this is what

18:46

people miss is like I want to

18:48

be the relationship person , I want to do this . No , no

18:50

, what you are is you are owning all

18:53

of the sales , all of the revenue that has

18:55

come so far , and therefore you

18:57

are the protector of this revenue . And

18:59

so , therefore , if you're going to be on a team and you have

19:01

to be on one that exists , I would actually Think

19:04

I would choose like the revenue team , because

19:06

I think you can actually learn from your peers

19:08

, like you can learn from sellers , you can actually gain

19:10

Practical skillset and you can educate

19:12

back right . I had a really great relationship

19:15

with our CRO a couple

19:17

companies ago and I feel like we would like

19:19

drive your customer call , you know , and we just be

19:21

chatting in the car and I learned so much

19:23

from him . But I feel like he also learned

19:25

from us because he would ask us questions

19:27

in that session like what's easier to implement

19:29

this or that , or you know what's easier to support

19:32

after ? Is it this or that ? He would ask these and

19:34

that dialogue exists , I think , if you can be a

19:36

part of those Teams . But yeah

19:38

, my preference is CCO .

19:41

Yeah , I agree , I think having somebody

19:44

who's looking at the entire customer experience

19:46

at a CCO level , where

19:49

it's going cross-functionally

19:51

into what is marketing doing

19:53

, what is product doing , what is customer

19:56

success doing , support doing , services doing that

19:58

broad perspective creates

20:00

just a better customer experience

20:03

overall . I think

20:05

companies that can't afford to

20:07

have another C-level

20:09

person it's not cheap , I

20:12

get that . Not every early-stage

20:14

company could maybe afford a CCO and that's

20:16

why they're not as prevalent as some of these other

20:19

roles . I agree with you , though

20:21

, barrying , that I would rather

20:23

CCS in a revenue department

20:25

than an operations department , because I think that's

20:27

where it really ultimately

20:30

belongs . If there is no CCO

20:32

, I think when it goes into an operations department

20:35

it is automatically categorized as a

20:37

cost . I think then that

20:39

puts the team at a higher

20:41

risk . It makes it harder to recruit

20:43

for that team because you really have to push a

20:45

lot harder and have a lot stronger business case

20:47

to recruit headcount

20:50

for your team . Sometimes you'll be categorized

20:52

as a cost center anyway . We were talking about this when we were

20:54

talking about financial reporting the other night . Sometimes

20:57

you just are in

20:59

cost of goods sold

21:01

. That means that part of what you

21:03

have to do is constantly

21:06

be making your operation

21:08

more efficient . Efficiency

21:10

in CCS is directly related

21:12

to headcount , because that is the biggest cost

21:14

. Usually in a CST

21:17

you can't hire as much . It means you

21:19

have to do more with less . If you're in

21:21

operating expenses , that's

21:24

just considered what it takes to run the company

21:27

. That makes it a little easier for

21:29

you to justify the cost of headcount

21:31

. But you're also not

21:34

totally safe per

21:37

se because you still are an

21:39

expense . Either way , you

21:42

have to be very good at demonstrating your

21:44

value . I guess I would

21:46

lean toward what you said and put people on the

21:49

revenue side too . Given that

21:51

this leads into the question that I

21:53

had for you on key metrics what do you think has shifted

21:56

in that area ?

21:57

I don't know that we've changed the metrics

22:00

. I think we are changing what we're focused

22:02

on a little bit . I think , for

22:04

example , gross revenue

22:06

retention In 2023

22:09

, I think people are just like , wow , we

22:11

took hits . An NRR may not have even

22:13

been a value that you're proud to share

22:16

, because you're just looking at the trenches . I think that

22:18

focus back on the financial

22:21

metrics that matter and to understand

22:23

trends and what is happening

22:26

. And where is my turn coming

22:28

from ? I know we're going to talk about this later , but

22:30

I think also , this is where

22:32

people are investing in machine

22:34

learning . They're trying to get better

22:36

pulse scores . I think we saw

22:38

a lot of people down on NPS

22:41

and other customer metrics , customer

22:43

survey metrics . I'm still not down

22:45

on it because I think not having it is worse than

22:48

having it . I think it's

22:50

good to know what your customer

22:52

is hearing , even if it's a pulse . I think

22:54

a lot of what's shifted is focus

22:56

on revenue . I don't know if you feel

22:58

this way , but when I was a CS leader

23:01

, I was doing this massive metric

23:03

sheet every month . Nobody was looking at it . I was

23:05

doing it . Then came the board meeting

23:07

and I had to present and it was always there

23:09

and ready because I spent my time doing it , but

23:12

that was really an important exercise

23:14

that we should all be doing as CS leaders

23:16

every month . I was doing it by

23:18

CSM . What's our green-red

23:22

ratios by CSM ? What's our retention

23:24

ratios ? It puts people

23:26

under pressure as a team , but I think it's really important

23:28

to understand am I setting my teams

23:31

up for success ? Why am I seeing a lot of churn in this

23:33

area or this sector or with this particular

23:35

person ? To me

23:37

, it feels like a lot of the same metrics that

23:39

I've always been around , but it's a shift in focus

23:41

and how we maybe think about those

23:44

metrics and what we're presenting to our teams

23:46

. This is not really a metric but I think , going back

23:48

to what you were saying about being an

23:50

operating expense , I've also noticed

23:52

a little bit of a shift of SaaS companies

23:55

wanting to do less services because

23:57

it's not recurring revenue . I

23:59

think it's also the type of revenue that people

24:01

are looking at differently Is it ARR

24:03

or is it just cash , because

24:06

sometimes they want to stick to the ARR .

24:09

I agree with you . I think that it

24:11

is really important to consider

24:13

the higher-level metrics as well

24:15

as the tactical metrics , but

24:17

it is the job of the CS leaders to

24:20

be always looking at their

24:22

metrics , because I think

24:24

investors and senior

24:26

leaders in most companies now are looking

24:28

at things like NRR

24:31

and cost reduction

24:33

measures . In order for

24:35

you , as the leader of the CS organization

24:38

, to be able to go to your board , present

24:40

numbers and then have reasons for

24:42

why things are the way they are , you

24:45

need to know why things are the way they are . You

24:47

need to have been doing what you were doing

24:49

your homework this whole time so that as

24:52

you lead up to a board

24:54

meeting or lead up to a senior

24:57

executive off-site or something like

24:59

that , you've got the reasons

25:01

that sit behind the numbers , because

25:03

otherwise you're just showing numbers , and boards

25:06

of directors and investors hate

25:08

surprises If you're suddenly springing

25:10

on them that your forecast for your

25:12

renewals is going down . They

25:15

need to know what's up . If

25:17

you , as a leader , don't know what's up , that's

25:19

a problem . I do think there's a lot

25:21

more scrutiny and intensity and I don't think it's

25:23

just yes , it's across the board , it's

25:26

every team . Because of the economy

25:28

, they're looking at costs , they're looking at

25:31

reasons behind the people that are

25:33

on the team and how they're performing . They're

25:35

looking at what is going on

25:37

in terms of those key metrics

25:40

and they're going to

25:42

ask questions , and so

25:44

I think being prepared for that is

25:46

critical . One line in my mind

25:48

is if you're a leader or a frontline CS

25:50

person and you got into this

25:52

field because you thought it was a field where it was a

25:55

happiness field and your job was going

25:57

to just be to sit around and make customers happy

25:59

and there was no accountability beyond

26:01

that , those days have passed . You

26:04

need to get very real about that

26:06

and start

26:08

getting very clear about your numbers

26:10

.

26:11

I forgot about this . I had a founder

26:13

who is really awesome at taking

26:15

the numbers that we would present and also amplifying

26:17

. I thought it was really cool . But once you

26:19

take on things like retention and expansion

26:22

, you can also show how

26:24

you've increased the average ARR

26:26

across your base . You can show metrics

26:29

that are really actually

26:31

not metrics that I think have shown up

26:33

in traditional CS meetings . We

26:35

would show not only our NRR

26:37

and our expansion but we'd show hey , overall

26:40

, we have customers that are renewing

26:42

and we've had three year renewals with all of them

26:44

. Our average renewal restriction

26:46

periods have increased or whatever . There's actually

26:49

more . You can do with that data

26:51

. When you own it , you can actually get really creative

26:53

and I really loved that . I learned that from one

26:55

of my founders . I just wanted to

26:57

share that .

26:58

That's great . I want to shift gears

27:00

to the last topic we were going to cover

27:02

today , which was artificial intelligence . I

27:06

think that we've really just scratched

27:08

the surface on how AI can benefit

27:10

CS . Tell me how you're

27:12

thinking about AI these days and how

27:15

enthusiastically we should either embrace

27:18

it or run from it . I

27:20

hear both . Yeah .

27:23

I'm going to be honest , my personality is a

27:26

little bit risk-averse , but in actuality

27:28

, if you aren't pursuing AI

27:30

in your workplace , you're behind . I'll

27:33

even say , in your personal life . I've seen so many people

27:35

applying it in unique ways . I came from companies

27:37

that all had AI-based products . I

27:40

think for me , the journey has been faster

27:42

. But one thing I noted and I did a talk at

27:44

Customer Success Festival last

27:47

year and I told people when

27:49

we launched the first day of product it wasn't even that long ago like 2018

27:51

, nobody wanted to call it artificial intelligence

27:54

. Everybody was like call it machine learning

27:56

, because it's a nicer way to say

27:58

that and people won't be as scared of it . The

28:01

fear of not using it , I think

28:03

, is going to be there for many people

28:05

. But in sitting and talking with different

28:07

Customer Success applications , the

28:10

benefits it can provide are great . I

28:12

think . Having simple things , obviously

28:14

generative AI , I think you can write all your

28:16

narratives and things that you want . But I personally love the

28:18

data analysis side . I think that's where CSMs

28:20

don't have as much hard skillset

28:23

often and it can be such a great enabler

28:25

If you do have access

28:27

to tools that are actually looking

28:29

across your customer to help data , maybe

28:32

giving you analysis , giving you hey , this

28:34

customer didn't show up for meetings five

28:37

times , like what's going on and giving you little hints

28:39

and tricks . I love seeing the

28:41

data-focused tools that

28:43

come into play and I love that we're

28:45

, in CS , able to use it for health scoring and

28:47

beyond . I'm

28:50

definitely pro the

28:52

use of AI to our field because

28:54

I think it's only going to enable people to

28:56

get things done a little bit more efficiently . As

28:59

we all know , we're adding more things to your plate . This

29:01

is the time to if you're going to

29:03

try to gain efficiencies , I think

29:05

this can be a help to gain efficiencies . I'm

29:08

going to add one little note . We had a CS platform

29:10

a couple of companies ago . They had an AI

29:12

component built in and it was like you can write

29:15

a quick summary email or whatever you can say . I

29:17

don't think anyone used it . I hope now

29:20

, looking forward , that people are going hey , I'm

29:22

going to poke around in there . Give

29:24

it a little try , because it can just maybe

29:26

make you a little bit more efficient in your day and

29:28

get you faster to where you need to be spending

29:31

your time .

29:32

Yeah , I really like it for communication

29:35

in its current form , especially

29:37

for people who are

29:39

great verbally but maybe not as good

29:41

in writing . There's a lot of people who

29:43

just that's not their strength is writing . I think

29:46

AI is great at coming up with things

29:48

that are written relatively professionally

29:51

, especially if you give it the right prompts . I

29:53

think it can really help people that

29:55

way . In a little more advanced way

29:57

, one of the coolest things I've seen and I think

30:00

I've shared this story on this podcast before

30:02

, but I'll share it again is

30:04

helping CSMs think

30:06

about what the goals for a client should

30:08

be and what the success

30:11

plan should look like . I was teaching a class

30:13

for a client on how to build a success

30:15

plan . One of the assignments I gave them

30:17

as homework was to go build a success plan

30:19

for a client . One of the guys

30:22

grabbed my format and

30:24

grabbed a transcript of

30:26

a recent strategy call he had had with a

30:28

customer of his and

30:30

had chat GPT do

30:32

a mashup of those things and he , with

30:35

very few edits , came up

30:37

with a three-goal

30:39

success plan that was very

30:42

strategic and very well-written for

30:44

a client , based on the conversation that

30:46

he had had , first of all of the whole

30:48

class and the ones that I looked at

30:50

, his was the best by

30:52

far . It was the most strategic and

30:54

most thorough . It was very tied

30:57

to the transcript of the conversation that

30:59

he had had with the client , and so it was

31:01

coming from what they had told him . It

31:03

was fantastic . So , of course , the

31:06

CSM would have to have the conversation

31:08

in order to provide that input , but

31:10

they wouldn't have to spend

31:12

all the time thinking , okay , so from that

31:14

conversation , what would be a

31:16

smart goal that would make sense for this client

31:19

? You could actually plug it in and have it come

31:21

up with something that was great and then spend your time

31:23

having a conversation with the client

31:25

about how to dial it in . That's

31:28

the kind of thing that I think AI can

31:30

do to help CS

31:33

teams be more focused on the strategy

31:35

and the consulting and less focused

31:37

on the little details

31:39

that are time consuming . I

31:42

think that was one of my favorite things I've seen recently

31:44

in AI for CS .

31:46

So can we put out a feature request , because I mean everybody's

31:49

recording their meetings these days . This is a broad

31:51

feature request . Everybody's recording meetings these

31:53

days . I think meeting recording

31:55

tools have been really heavily skewed towards what

31:58

did a seller need ? But even

32:00

a seller is hearing the first goals

32:02

that a customer shares is usually in the sales process

32:04

. So let's just get that completed

32:07

, get that documented

32:09

, because I feel like then everyone will be happy to do

32:11

less administrative work .

32:13

Yeah , and then the measuring of

32:17

it becomes more to the customer

32:19

, to kind of oh okay

32:22

, I said that this is what I wanted and this is how

32:24

we're measuring it . I

32:26

need to be looking at it because most

32:29

of the time , things that you want to

32:31

measure as a CSM or that really

32:33

are meaningful to the client , don't

32:35

sit on your platform . They sit in the customer's

32:37

ecosystem somewhere and

32:40

either you have to get that data or your customer

32:42

has to get that data for you . I think

32:44

this could maybe make that a lot easier , so

32:47

, all right . Last question this is

32:49

like did I miss anything on my set of questions

32:51

for all ? What is the biggest

32:53

trend in customer success right now and why ?

32:56

It's like a weird trend . I think

32:58

everyone's scrambling to prove their worth , right

33:01

, I feel like all leaders and teams are

33:03

scrambling to prove their worth . What I feel like is a trend

33:05

in the industry is to , you

33:07

know , for us to help our

33:09

peers get better educated , using

33:12

formal training programs , otherwise , but

33:14

also help our companies and

33:16

founders understand the value , because what they

33:18

shouldn't do is strip down you

33:20

know , these CS teams just because they're

33:22

not necessarily doing certain things , but figure out

33:24

ways to train them and get them to

33:26

be a part of that profit machine right that

33:28

you need them to be . So I feel like for CS

33:31

, it's proving our worth I say this like I

33:33

don't know how what's the right word , but I want to

33:35

be cautious too is like CSM's

33:37

shifting with the revenue focus shouldn't

33:40

make you scramble for revenue . Get

33:42

your comp plans done right Like . Everyone should understand

33:45

what their expectations are . So

33:47

you're not like , oh , I'm just going

33:49

to try to like expand and expand and expand and

33:51

grow , because this is what my comp is going to be based on

33:53

now , right , like , I think it's really . It should still be like

33:55

deliver value and

33:58

ensure that your comp plan matches what your expectations

34:00

are as a team right .

34:01

Well , thank you so much for being a

34:03

part of the podcast today . I'm so glad we looped

34:05

back around and got to talk about these

34:08

trends again . I think hopefully we could

34:10

do it again next year and just keep this

34:12

conversation going and try to push our field

34:14

further up . It's a huge risk

34:17

right now because of the way the economy is

34:19

, but I think it's also a huge

34:21

opportunity for leaders to really prove

34:23

themselves and rise in the field , and

34:26

so it's exciting to talk about

34:28

. I hope you feel that way too . Oh

34:30

yeah .

34:31

I feel like we're

34:33

in a unique place as compared to

34:35

last year , where change is actually happening

34:37

. I think this is where our community

34:39

is the best , because we can like support each other through that

34:41

change right . So let's gain some maturity

34:43

, because I feel like it's time . It will

34:45

help us be more ingrained in

34:47

the business and be a long lasting organization

34:50

. So , yeah , I'm also very excited

34:53

and thank you for having me again . It was a great conversation

34:55

.

34:56

Oh , this is great . If someone wanted

34:58

to get in touch with you , what's the best way for them to reach

35:00

out ?

35:01

I think LinkedIn is probably easiest

35:03

right now for me as I'm working through kind

35:06

of new contact information and things like that

35:08

. But yeah , definitely find me on LinkedIn .

35:10

Okay , sounds good . Well , thank you again

35:12

, and I also want to thank our producer , Russell

35:14

Bourne , and our audio experts at

35:16

AuraFarm Audio . This podcast

35:19

is a production of Success League Radio . To

35:21

learn more about The Success League's consulting

35:23

and training offerings , please visit our website

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35:28

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