0:03

Hi there and welcome along to this week's

0:05

Sunday Supplement Podcast with me Vicky Gomelsell and

0:08

the assistant editor of The Mirror Darren Lewis.

0:10

Joining us this week to reflect on events

0:12

in the Premier League and the FA Cup

0:14

is the Telegraph's football reporter Sam Dean. Let's

0:18

get to Craven Cottage because it

0:20

was a great win for Fulham, a

0:22

superb performance beating Tottenham 3-0. Anjapostokogliu's side

0:24

missed the chance to move above Afton

0:26

Villa in fourth. It's the first time

0:28

in 16 years Fulham have beaten Spurs

0:30

at home which is a great start.

0:32

You were there watching them.

0:34

How impressive were Fulham? Brilliant,

0:37

brilliant. Really, really impressive in very similar ways

0:39

that they would beat Arsenal at home earlier

0:41

season too. They've clearly got this knack for

0:44

getting into the faces of teams who want to

0:46

play progressive passing football and they can stop them

0:48

and they can shut them down. And as they

0:50

showed with the goals we'll see and the way

0:52

they attack throughout the game, they cause so many

0:55

problems for Spurs. A lot of the issues seemed

0:57

to be in the same areas of the pitch

0:59

which was behind the Spurs' full backs. I mean,

1:01

Fulham got in behind so, so many times, created

1:03

loads of chances and they really could have

1:05

scored more than the three goals they did get. I mean Spurs had

1:08

a couple of chances but most of those came when

1:10

they were already 3-0 down and the level

1:12

of performance from Tottenham and Anjapostokogliu spoke afterwards

1:14

about not being at the required competitive intensity

1:16

level. It was a really worrying and disappointing

1:18

performance for them, especially having won a 4-0

1:20

at Stavilla last week and everyone was looking

1:23

at them thinking they're back to their best

1:25

again and they're really sort of moving through

1:27

the gears like they were at the start

1:29

of the season but did not turn out

1:31

that way at all yesterday. One player

1:33

we saw there, Rodrigo Munez, I mean a fantastic

1:35

performance for him, 7-7. How good was

1:38

he to sort of see in the flesh? This

1:41

guy's come out of nowhere basically. I mean, Fulham

1:43

signed him three years ago and

1:46

he was a squad player and he never really

1:48

showed a huge amount of promise

1:50

to be honest. That sounds quite blunt but it's easy to

1:52

say now because he's playing so well. He went

1:54

on loan to Middlesbrough last year. I think he scored two goals

1:57

in the championship. Not many people were looking

1:59

at this guy and thinking, The be the next sort of. Brazilian.

2:01

Premier League sensation but then since the start

2:04

of February no one school for goes in

2:06

the premier league and yesterday's you can see

2:08

from the to goes that there was such

2:10

different finishes. One was a great ah it's

2:12

great run deadly finish in the other was

2:14

a real strike go and it was also

2:16

the hold up play the running in behind

2:18

he was playing like a complete so benign

2:20

and he's sort of transformation has been unexpected

2:22

southern been great for for hims been brilliant

2:24

to say. What a bad song

2:27

and then in our hands post conflict for

2:29

that know worrying performance. but it's disappointing. Performance

2:31

is as him lying if we did it in a

2:33

three games in the rights. And thought he was

2:35

in. I was a quick to say that the

2:37

it wasn't the best the fullness atlanta put an

2:40

end as sentiment analysis a saying that he was

2:42

expecting some sort of excuse after the game they

2:44

with that sort of woeful what did you make

2:46

a that four months with. A singer jamie

2:49

said that because watching the game

2:51

he didn't look too light. Trademark

2:53

spurs are they were a yard

2:55

show. They were ladies. They just

2:58

like a side that. The

3:02

perform the promises inexplicable. I think even

3:04

in front of goal they didn't have

3:06

any composure. Nothing seems to be go

3:08

right for them. It

3:11

was as bad as have seen them

3:13

play since sons pasta coconut took over.

3:15

Why would say is that they've got

3:17

the right man in charge to be

3:20

able to deal with that. They still

3:22

i think are masters of their own

3:24

destiny because we're into the final ten

3:26

games of the season and a keeps

3:28

his head was everyone about them is

3:31

losing. There's ah he has been framing

3:33

he does frame last week the game

3:35

against Aston Villa as not. A.

3:37

top four decided he was saying our

3:40

aspirations are bigger than the top four

3:42

but everybody knows that getting into the

3:44

top for the high caliber of player

3:47

able to attract the finance the revenues

3:49

that that would break and the stage

3:51

that spurs would be playing on mean

3:54

that getting into that top four is

3:56

all imports what does come into play

3:58

of course is that five

4:00

places could be available given West Ham's

4:02

win on Thursday night and I know

4:05

Manchester United are looking at that maybe

4:07

as their salvation but it could be

4:09

the reason why Post-Econ Blue is so

4:11

relaxed. I think yesterday was a

4:13

blip I expect to see a better Spurs

4:15

going into the final 10 games of the

4:17

season and given what Spurs have shown us

4:19

so far bear in mind at the start

4:22

of the season there were those concerns about

4:24

Harry Kane and the lack

4:26

of goals they've scored in every

4:28

game so far 39 in total

4:31

and it was only broken yesterday so I think

4:33

they can get back on the bike after

4:36

today. Do you feel that their Champions League

4:38

place might be in doubt after that performance or you

4:40

still think they could be in that top four? They

4:42

certainly can't play like that again for sure I

4:44

think the Champions League debate is such an interesting

4:47

one because as Darren says like the way we

4:49

in the media and the fans see it is

4:51

the top four is now sort of the ambition

4:53

for Spurs and they've got to get that Champions

4:55

League get that money in accelerate the rebuild process

4:58

under Post-Econ Blue but then Post-Econ Blue

5:00

himself is saying that's not how he sees it

5:02

he'd rather finish fifth and not get Champions League

5:04

if he sees signs of the team developing he

5:06

doesn't want to get fourth but just for the

5:08

sake of it and he made the point that

5:10

Spurs teams have finished second before or reached Champions

5:12

League finals before and not necessarily built on that and

5:14

like it doesn't mean anything unless you build on it

5:16

so he's more focused on the long-term build but

5:19

I think the rest of us and I imagine

5:21

his bosses too at Spurs I think he will

5:23

hang on the long-term build gets accelerated dramatically if

5:25

you can get over the line in the Champions

5:28

League in that top four or as you say

5:30

potentially top five depending on how the sort of

5:32

season ends in Europe but that that's sort of

5:35

interesting kind of debate and I

5:37

don't know if it's an issue or not Darren but

5:39

it feels to me like a really interesting aspect

5:42

that we were talking about top four Champions League you've got to

5:44

get it and Post-Econ Blue is saying I don't think it's that

5:46

important I think it does reframe the

5:48

way us as journalists think about it because we've

5:51

almost grown up if you like in

5:53

journalistic terms as believing since

5:55

fourth place was available for Champions

5:58

League football but that's what we

6:00

should be targeting for the teams that

6:02

don't have the resource of Manchester City

6:04

and Liverpool and the teams that aspire

6:06

to win the title. I

6:09

think as far as Spurs are concerned, he's

6:11

come in and tried to kind of just reframe

6:14

our thinking along with that. In the same

6:16

way, for example, Vincent company's

6:18

gone to Burnley and changed them from a

6:20

side that used to play quite pragmatic football

6:23

to a passing team for better or for

6:25

worse. And I think it's important

6:29

Co Blue and other managers are trying to get us

6:31

to think about a different way and a

6:34

different vision that they have for their particular

6:36

clubs to buy into that

6:38

because we can't just keep saying fourth place

6:40

is the trophy, fourth place is the limit

6:42

of their ambition. When the game is changing,

6:44

the caliber of player that they're acquiring is

6:46

changing. And the perceptions that

6:48

we had had before he arrived at the

6:51

club, they're changing as well. We don't now

6:53

think of the Spurs as a struggling club,

6:55

we think of something quite exciting that's growing

6:57

there. And the reason why, for

7:00

example, Michael Arteta managed to win so many people

7:02

over to his way of thinking, for us, is

7:04

because they could see the direction of travel eventually.

7:06

And I think that's what Spurs fans can see

7:08

those who look beyond yesterday. Yeah. And given

7:11

the fact they started at an absolute gallop,

7:13

isn't it? It's almost it's perhaps not surprising

7:15

that they might falter at some stage of

7:17

the season, it would be disappointing if they

7:19

faltered for the next 10 games. It was

7:21

interesting to hear what human son said after

7:23

the game as well. He sort of said

7:25

this is unacceptable. We should all look in

7:27

the mirror and, you know,

7:29

really reassess what happened today. How

7:31

disappointing would that result against Fulham,

7:33

who actually their statistics against Spurs

7:35

weren't very good ahead of this

7:38

game, given the performance that they

7:40

showed against Villa, you know, the disparity between

7:42

the two, that's got to be the disappointing

7:44

thing. I think so. I think if

7:46

that sudden fluctuation is formed to go from the high

7:48

of Villa Park to the absolute lows of Crepe and

7:50

Cottage in the space of less than a week, That's

7:53

probably the most alarming thing about it because it was

7:55

the same players. Yeah. Apart from Nicky Van De Ven,

7:57

who was out. And That's maybe as simple as that,

7:59

maybe just losing. Among other than a

8:01

hundred magazine Kameda and had a difficult day

8:03

on his family day for the guess I'd

8:05

about forty nine minutes in total. First time

8:07

since January for Sam did you get a

8:09

sense that it was an individual thing always

8:11

a collective Malays by a to abide by

8:13

the office It was definitely collective Malays by

8:15

think dragons in in particular struggled at times

8:17

especially against Mooney see we spoke about was

8:19

just of fi yesterday and he he and

8:21

happened to me down polite if one centre

8:24

back as be slightly off a that can

8:26

spread quite quickly and it can get the

8:28

opposition up and for them so. Possibilities.

8:30

Their this my blood I think I'm

8:33

and they went for it and be

8:35

I don't agree that the fluctuation in

8:37

foam some very. Unusual,

8:39

I think it's was be quite steady the

8:41

season generally papa when they had a few

8:43

injury issues over December January and in January

8:45

pretty steady eclecticism. Their performance levels the yesterday

8:47

just completely disappeared and that's probably the first

8:49

time that happened and given the fact that

8:51

is now approaching the high stakes time of

8:54

the season the decisive end of the campaign

8:56

of the time to start filling in these

8:58

kind of wobbles. What? I'm saying

9:00

abandoning. Well Aaron swallowed with to

9:02

it is one of the stunts much

9:04

reporters around he's on a Pc are

9:06

talking about money's actually and same at

9:08

this time Last year struggle us again

9:10

time at loan at Middlesbrough probably wondering

9:13

whether he made the right decision to

9:15

me. So they go for for them

9:17

And twenty twenty one Fossil would. Twelve

9:19

months and ten is quickly becoming one

9:21

of the Premier League's most prolific scorer

9:23

as it's a ton of the yeah

9:25

think I'm the one plans good, as

9:27

many ghosts as his seven and seven

9:29

matches and he does say. That it

9:31

was a scintillating performance from full of.

9:33

But he also talks about the concern

9:36

but spurs might have and the fact

9:38

that they have to be careful not

9:40

to establish a trend. That

9:44

to assemble. I don't think that will

9:46

be the case. I think with and

9:48

post apocalypse that he's apply a manager

9:50

into whom older players have bought. Many.

9:53

listen to them individually talking about

9:55

the impact he's had station to

9:57

lose sk did an outstanding players'

9:59

tribune earlier in the week

10:01

where he talked about the belief that

10:04

Foster Cogloo gives him and the other players the

10:06

fact that they would run through brick walls for

10:08

him. I don't see this

10:10

as something that's gonna set in in any kind

10:12

of a rot that's gonna set in I think

10:14

as far as the Spurs players

10:16

are concerned they're not just aspiring to fourth place

10:18

they believe that there is a long-term ambition to

10:20

win things and this is just a bump in

10:22

the road. Manchester City's

10:25

dream of back-to-back dribbles is still on.

10:27

They beat Newcastle move into the semi-finals

10:29

of the FA Cup so look a

10:32

comfortable win for Pep Guardiola third in the

10:34

end you'd say. They

10:37

are a side they're breaking records

10:39

it's the second the sixth time in

10:41

a row that they've got to the semi-finals of

10:43

an FA Cup and maybe his desire

10:45

to win that Cup was shown as well

10:48

a full-strength side as well against Newcastle. Yeah

10:50

well that's one thing about Pep Guardiola I

10:52

think that ever since he arrived at Man

10:54

City he's always taken the Cup seriously and

10:57

obviously that is easier to do when you've

10:59

got a really good squad because he can

11:01

rotate and still have world-class players come in

11:03

but he's never rotated in the

11:05

same sort of extreme way that other clubs do

11:07

and he's never for example played seven or eight

11:09

kids in the league Cup he's always gone out

11:11

to win it and generally they have won it

11:13

and I think the other day he spoke about

11:15

the Carabar Cup and the response Liverpool winning it

11:17

and how it's become a very big

11:19

deal now whereas he said but I when he first

11:22

arrived in in England people didn't talk about

11:24

the League Cup in the same way whereas now the

11:26

priority of it in the view of it is

11:28

shifted especially if people talking about chasing quadruples in

11:30

the case of Liverpool and and troubles the city

11:32

as well and just like topping up these trophies

11:34

and yeah I think one of his legacies when

11:37

he leaves Guardiola will be the sort of the

11:39

way that he's always approached Cup competitions and

11:41

wanted to win them and do you do

11:43

everything he's pushing it that hard in

11:46

terms of wanting to win those trophies

11:48

because of the momentum that's been generated

11:50

by Liverpool's pursuit of the quadruple

11:52

and the way that it's

11:54

galvanized all of the players if the

11:57

city have that hunger to Actually

11:59

make history. No teams won the

12:01

treble to season that arose ever seen

12:03

it in in In and Premier league.

12:07

Do feel. That that's kind of galvanizing

12:09

the city side as well. I think so. I

12:11

think One thing that city if proven to be

12:13

the case is that winning leads to more winning

12:16

and B C And this time of year almost

12:18

every year they hit the streets and I can't

12:20

imagine Korea to what's the hear any receiver. he's

12:22

not thinking if a couple of privacy he wants

12:25

them to keep winning and keep that ball rolling

12:27

because they've shown how dangerous they can be when

12:29

they're in that run. And yet he meant to

12:31

the double or treble mean what A what a

12:33

thing to aim for. And yeah, he's. Gonna with

12:36

plants and there isn't a and that forty dollars

12:38

in and say he's not think them a p

12:40

is why. Mr Especially because and as he's

12:42

my depend on your views and I I

12:44

don't know what people think but it. Isn't

12:47

that the treble? They won last. He didn't

12:49

quite get the. Level of

12:51

outpouring of love and affection that may be

12:53

citizens would have thought. Compared to the Ninety

12:56

Nine trips with My United that's like Lionize

12:58

is one of the all time great achievements.

13:00

As he was on that later than done that. I

13:02

think it's partly recession that they just one

13:04

so much and also this now under fifteen

13:07

charges that on the that's that's an issue.

13:09

In the background says the issues around the

13:11

how much money they spend People not necessarily

13:13

from the outside, always appreciating what city done

13:15

and loving it said. I think if people

13:18

compare the two Ninety Nine Trouble and it's

13:20

and it's it's triple. Last season people sell

13:22

the Ninety Nine Trouble with the original Treble.

13:25

Sophie. City to then Target has doubled

13:27

tripled. That changes everything they defend. the team

13:29

did a double or treble and that his

13:31

bat puts them above and beyond anyone ever

13:33

really. I wonder if they look about a

13:35

think he okay the world and give us

13:37

our flowers and this time last year as

13:39

could get them now. Yeah and

13:41

credence into wow, what a story that

13:44

will be an. Newcastle attending to

13:46

little bit of the story at them and on

13:48

a because that kind of down from almost that's

13:50

worth it seems I did this falling off the

13:52

cliff and little bit see sales. Hear. the

13:54

defensive strength with what was

13:56

what was really a feature

13:58

house Eddie Howe's

14:00

management and there was a time when St. James's

14:02

Park was such a difficult place to go to

14:04

but that's no longer the case and away from

14:07

home as well they're very fragile now. City

14:09

really didn't look in any danger of defeat

14:13

yesterday and I

14:15

think as far as Newcastle are as

14:17

a club are concerned when you think

14:19

about their ambitions at the start of

14:21

the season you listen to their fans

14:23

at every game EIEI are up the

14:25

Premier League we go. I knew I

14:27

shouldn't have tried that. They're

14:30

listening to it than saying it.

14:33

Their ambitions as a club had

14:35

been to mix it

14:37

at the

14:43

very top or at least be in the positions Aston

14:45

Villa and Spurs are at the moment as

14:47

it is they know we're near that and

14:49

they're going to have to go back to

14:51

the drawing man now. To be fair to

14:53

Eddie Howe and Jason alongside

14:56

Tindall they've had

14:58

horrific injuries it's been so

15:00

bad and just when one

15:02

thing has appeared

15:04

to clear up another comes along on

15:06

the horizon and I

15:09

think in that regard you

15:11

have to give them that grace but

15:13

football is a very very unforgiving business

15:15

and the way of football is that

15:17

there will be agents throwing managers at

15:20

the club now and saying look this

15:23

guy can do better for you this guy has

15:25

a higher profile for you and it

15:27

will be for the club to show

15:29

the faith in Eddie Howe and

15:31

his team that allowed

15:33

them to be able to build and to get

15:35

to where they are in the first place to

15:37

move on to the next level and not just

15:40

look at what's glittering and think that could be

15:42

our gold I think as far as Eddie's concerned

15:44

he's done a great job and they have to

15:46

bear in mind the injuries that have cost them

15:48

so dear this season. In terms of

15:50

Eddie Howe he'll still be there at the

15:52

beginning of next season do you think you know Alan

15:54

Shearer said he's got a lot of credit in the

15:57

bank do you believe that you know you said yourself

15:59

football turns on its head very quickly.

16:01

Do you think you'll still be there? I think I

16:04

definitely agree with Alan Shearer, who's obviously, he

16:06

knows Newcastle better than anyone. I think what

16:08

Eddie Howe's done, I think, deserves another season.

16:10

Whether that means he gets one is obviously

16:12

a different matter. There are

16:14

managers out there who will look at

16:16

Newcastle as a club, its history, its

16:18

fan base, its financial potential.

16:20

I think that is a lovely place to

16:22

go. And there are some high profile managers

16:24

who are going to be available this summer

16:26

and they're going to be interested for sure.

16:28

Not only that Sam, you and I, we've

16:30

both been in press conferences where managers might

16:32

take a position and say, look, the club

16:34

are backing me and they're doing this. We've

16:36

seen it before where behind the scenes managers

16:39

are unaware of what clubs are doing. And

16:41

I'm not suggesting Newcastle at any level are

16:44

doing this at all. But we

16:46

are aware of the brutality of football and

16:48

the ruthlessness as clubs try to get to

16:50

where they need to be. Think about Claudio Ranieri

16:52

when he got Chelsea into the Champions League and

16:55

then Chelsea said we'll take it from here. And

16:57

they brought in Jose Mourinho. You think about the

16:59

job Mark Hughes did at Manchester City, Pellow

17:02

Greeny at Manchester City, any

17:04

number of managers at big clubs that aspire to

17:06

be able to make the most of the resource

17:08

that they do have, then

17:11

those clubs turn to other managers with

17:13

higher profile and say, you'll

17:15

take it from there. So it answers

17:17

your question. Yeah. That's the key. It's

17:19

that aspiration and vision element. And Newcastle

17:22

have quite clearly stated we're given their ownership situation.

17:24

They want to be at the top of world

17:26

football soon. They want to get there as fast

17:28

as they can, obviously within the rules and the

17:30

slow build that's going to be required through that.

17:32

But it's not like say a mid table team

17:35

is quite happy. Crystal

17:37

Palace say, for example, for years, and rightly

17:39

so, it's well organized, well owned club have

17:42

had to stay in the Premier League as a priority,

17:44

getting mid table, finishing 12th, good season, move on. Newcastle

17:47

aren't thinking about that way anymore. Newcastle thinking

17:49

bigger, they're dreaming bigger, they've got huge ambitions

17:51

and that ambition generally in football brings with

17:53

it a need to change or a desire

17:55

to change. And that I worry for how

17:58

for that reason. Well, Amanda Stavely. has

18:00

been very clear about that. So that's not

18:02

just our opinions or our experience. Amanda

18:05

Stavely's being very, very vocal

18:08

and clear about where she sees the

18:10

club. And so that's from

18:13

them as opposed to us. Right.

18:15

Meanwhile, let's get to the women's Super League. James, I just

18:17

want to get you before you go on the

18:20

comments that Emma Hayes made on Friday because you were

18:22

in that press conference, weren't you? Obviously,

18:24

she said that player-to-player relationships were

18:26

inappropriate. Now, after Friday's game,

18:28

she did come out and say she kind

18:31

of regretted saying that. She admitted she'd let

18:33

herself down. It comes, of course, after Willie

18:36

Kirk is now being investigated by

18:38

his club, Leicester, following an allegation

18:40

of a player-coach relationship. The

18:43

fact that she, you know, sort of tried to put it to

18:45

bed, she said she apologized, she regretted it. Do

18:47

you think this will be the end of the discussion? No,

18:50

I don't at all, Vicky, actually. I think this

18:52

will start a new discussion off. I think, look,

18:55

in that press conference, Emma Hayes, first

18:57

of all, was asked about the player-coach

18:59

relationship and she immediately said it's

19:01

inappropriate. She focused on the professionalism of the

19:03

game and where she wants the game to

19:05

still grow and become. Very much, she's been

19:08

a key part of the growth of the

19:10

sport, certainly in this country. And really, with

19:12

that being reflected on a worldwide stage, she's

19:14

moving to the US for the US Women's

19:16

National Team job at the end of the

19:18

season. She's such a key speaker and a

19:20

role model in the sport. She

19:23

then, in the press conference, so

19:25

elaborated and spoke about the player-player

19:27

relationship. And I think she probably

19:29

regrets saying it's inappropriate at this stage.

19:31

But the fundamentals of what she was talking

19:33

about was the fact that for a coach

19:35

having to cope and deal in a changing

19:38

room within a team environment with players that

19:40

are in relationships and we know what can

19:42

come from relationships, arguments, disappointments,

19:44

if one player's in the team, one

19:46

player's not. And it adds a difficult

19:49

dynamic to that team. And she's obviously

19:51

speaking about experience she's faced in the

19:53

past. So I have

19:55

no doubt that this conversation will move on. I

19:57

think there'll be other managers asked about it. and

20:01

ultimately what Emma Hayes wants, she's striving

20:03

for the game to be more professional

20:05

and she sees that as a part

20:07

that maybe in the future will start

20:09

to move away from football

20:11

because it has been a key part of

20:13

football. Football players have

20:16

mutual fun that they like to

20:19

do, they play football together, they meet like-minded

20:21

people and that's the environment they find themselves

20:23

in but now the game is at this

20:25

pivotal stage where it's getting more and more

20:27

professional, she wants to focus just to be

20:29

on the football and I understand

20:31

her points, I think it's just

20:33

the way it came about on the same time

20:35

as discussing player-coach relationship is probably what she regrets

20:37

a little bit more but Vicky we haven't heard

20:39

the end of this I'm sure. Yeah I'd

20:42

agree with that, James it's always good to

20:44

get your thoughts, thanks for joining us. Yeah

20:46

as James was saying, we probably haven't heard

20:48

the end of this discussion, I think what

20:50

Emma was really clear about is that she

20:52

felt she'd said the wrong word in saying

20:55

inappropriate is something that she certainly regrets saying.

20:58

It's very unlike Emma Hayes to come out and

21:00

say something that is perhaps

21:02

herself inappropriate, you know she

21:04

doesn't normally make these slip-ups does she? No

21:07

it feels a bit uncharacteristic and we

21:09

were talking before coming on about the choice

21:11

of word and as James was explaining I

21:13

think the word challenging would be a very

21:15

fair one to use for a coach as

21:17

James said it must be incredibly

21:19

difficult if you know that there are

21:22

numerous relationships within your squad because that

21:24

affects everything not just your home life but even things

21:26

like there's going to be a new contract and the

21:28

contract rate lengths generally are short of the women's game

21:30

and players futures are up in the

21:33

air a bit more and it's you know if one

21:35

person is getting a new contract one isn't,

21:37

those sorts of conversations are difficult

21:39

and challenging in normal

21:41

circumstances let alone if two players

21:43

have a relationship together so I think

21:46

most people who would have heard Emma Hayes's

21:48

comments would have understood that element of it that

21:50

if you put yourself in the position of a

21:52

boss or a manager in any in any workplace

21:54

let alone in football managing

21:56

people who are relationships is tricky but

21:59

that's different inappropriate and that's clearly

22:01

where she wanted to row back from because

22:04

clearly there's a big big difference between

22:06

the player-player relationship and the player-coach relationship

22:08

which is what has sort of

22:10

led to this debate really becoming an issue

22:13

in the last couple of months. Yeah absolutely we're

22:15

talking there really about the power isn't

22:17

aren't we really so that's why Willy

22:19

Kirk is undergoing an investigation at the

22:21

moment. I think perhaps this story

22:23

gathered pace a little bit because Jess Carter obviously

22:25

is in her team who is in their relationship

22:27

with a fellow teammate and and was

22:30

liking sweets that were

22:32

sort of going against what Emma

22:34

had said on Friday.

22:37

She's certainly not one to shy away from

22:39

difficult conversations and I think that's what we

22:42

really like about Emma Hayes she was very

22:44

open and honest. She's kind

22:46

of almost given herself a difficult conversation you'd have

22:48

to say probably ahead of that game on Friday.

22:51

Yes and no I mean listen why

22:53

do we love Jurgen Klopp and why

22:56

are the likes of Arsene

22:58

Wenger so admired Thomas Tuchel

23:01

as well because they

23:03

realised that football isn't the be-all

23:05

and end-all you know you can go into

23:07

press conferences and have adult conversations with them

23:10

growing up conversations with them about

23:12

difficult subjects and that's Emma Hayes's

23:14

great strength and the

23:17

women's game looked to her for the

23:19

leadership she provided when it

23:21

had come under attack from people who

23:24

are trying to reduce the efforts of

23:26

their game to grow and the promotion

23:28

of female voices within

23:30

our industry and here she's

23:32

taken on a subject. Are we gonna

23:34

deride her because she's made a mistake?

23:37

No and I think what she did

23:39

when she recognised that there had been

23:41

a problem with what she said she addressed it

23:43

head-on with her players the most important people to

23:45

address it with because

23:49

those players do have a voice and she's

23:51

empowered them to have a voice and that's

23:53

the reason why we so admire Emma Hayes

23:55

and why she'll be a loss to the

23:57

game where she goes state-side precisely because she

23:59

empowers players. to have that voice

24:01

and they'll have been robust

24:03

and outspoken with their reaction to what was

24:05

said. She did point out that she would

24:08

prefer to have conversations in-house and not publicly

24:11

but I certainly think as far as the

24:13

debate is concerned there is that distinction as

24:15

you were pointing out between player-coach

24:19

relationships and the imbalance, the power

24:22

imbalance. Catherine Bat and Suzanne Ragg,

24:24

if anyone hasn't read their pieces

24:27

from yesterday, Catherine in the Mail, Daily

24:29

Mail and Suzanne in the Guardian, please

24:31

do read them. Very, very instructive, the

24:33

best piece of writing I've seen

24:35

on this since

24:37

that press conference and

24:39

Catherine makes a variety

24:41

of points

24:43

around the Mail

24:46

being aware of particularly one

24:48

coach, sorry one football

24:51

club where they're up to five different

24:53

relationships in the dressing room. So how

24:55

would that square with what has been

24:57

said and as

25:00

far as Suzanne's piece is concerned she talks

25:02

about the power imbalance between

25:07

coaches, administrative staff, managers

25:11

and the relationships that they have had with

25:14

players and the need to squash that

25:16

because of the dangers that they propose

25:19

for the women's game. It's a conversation, as

25:21

James was saying, that does continue to need

25:23

to be had, it's a very important one.

25:25

Okay, very useful. I was going to say,

25:27

I think obviously the focus has been

25:30

on Emma Hayter's comments but the wider issue is

25:32

that the growth of the

25:34

women's game has been so quick and impressive and

25:36

professionalisation of it, that 10 years ago these issues

25:38

just happened and it wasn't really like a thing

25:41

that people, it's just like a sort of

25:43

common knowledge within the game but it wasn't the

25:45

focus on it. Now clubs are starting

25:47

to realise they're going to need to put policies down

25:49

like HR departments to work this

25:51

stuff out and there needs to become some

25:53

kind of code and even things like reporting

25:55

it and having those places to

25:57

go, there isn't that many avenues currently in it.

26:00

Women's Games going so far that there are big elements of

26:02

it that are still catching up. And I think this has

26:04

kind of shone a light on the

26:06

complications and difficulties of these

26:09

issues. Catherine

26:13

makes the point that Manchester United called

26:16

their players and staff together and

26:18

basically reinforced their policy

26:21

on their relationship policy to

26:23

them. Suzanne made

26:25

the point that this has been an issue

26:27

for a long time and a lot of

26:30

people have wanted it spoken about but there

26:32

have been legal hurdles to some help. But

26:34

I think we're at a moment now not

26:36

just instructive for the game but instructive for

26:38

us as journalists in terms of the way

26:40

that we cover it as well because there

26:42

are safeguarding issues connected with it.

26:44

Suzanne talks about one particular manager

26:47

within the Women's Game who will not

26:49

give lifts to female

26:51

players home by

26:53

himself. He'll always make sure that there's someone else

26:55

to protect himself and the player

26:57

and there is that issue of power imbalance.

26:59

There is that issue of all of the

27:02

things that we've discussed that surround the game

27:04

before. They still do exist and

27:06

we still do have to cover them. Gary,

27:09

great to speak to you. This month marks

27:12

10 years since you made your debut for

27:14

Hereford. It's been an incredible journey since then.

27:17

Yeah wow I didn't know it was 10 years. But

27:20

yeah like you said it's been been one hell of a

27:23

journey and if you said you know 10 years ago we

27:25

sat down talking about a Premier League game I would have

27:27

probably said you're a million miles away from it. But no

27:30

yeah I think when you're playing it's hard to

27:32

look back on your journey sometimes because you're just

27:34

so focused on what games next or you know

27:36

what you can do next. So yeah

27:38

it's a bit of a mental one 10

27:40

years. You fast forwards to present day, your

27:43

best goal scoring campaign in the

27:45

Premier League and 10 matches still left to

27:47

play this season. Yeah it's been a really

27:49

really good season and you know like I said

27:51

there's so much more football to be played and so

27:53

many more opportunities to score to keep trying to you

27:55

know score as many as I can. So hopefully now

27:57

until the end of the season can keep trying. to

28:00

score a few more goals. How pleased have you

28:02

been with the levels that you've been able to reach the times this

28:05

year? Yeah, no really. I think I'm a

28:07

winger but I want to score

28:09

goals and I think every year you try

28:11

and look at it as an improvement and especially

28:15

in the Premier League which is probably the

28:17

best league in the world. So

28:20

to keep scoring goals and

28:22

I always set myself targets and trying to score

28:24

as many as possible. So like I said there's

28:26

a lot of football to be played and a

28:28

lot more goals to get and I'm excited to

28:30

see what I can end up on. What

28:32

was the target for this season? Have you already surpassed

28:35

it? Yeah. And he's setting

28:37

himself a new one now. I know the manager said that

28:39

why can't you be the first West Ham player to score

28:41

20 Premier League goals? Yeah maybe. I

28:43

think in the season you

28:46

don't put too much pressure on yourself.

28:48

You always have those targets that you do at the start.

28:50

Well I do anyway. And then

28:52

when the season goes you can kind of see where

28:54

you're at, see how far you're away. But yeah like

28:57

I said I surpassed that target and the manager has

28:59

set me that so let's go for 20. What was

29:01

the target initially? Ten. It's always ten

29:03

for me. It's always ten and then trying to

29:05

see where I am after that. It's always ten

29:07

and then you know I want to comfortably get

29:09

ten. I think ten is an okay number but

29:12

I think if you want to be at another

29:15

level you have to be pushing at 15, 20 goals and

29:17

getting closer to that so let's see.

29:20

And how have you enjoyed the process

29:22

of evolving a game in the last

29:24

12 months in particular and playing it in a

29:26

central role at times? Yes obviously

29:28

it's different. It's difficult.

29:30

You're almost learning a new position

29:33

and like I said probably the best league

29:35

so of course it's going to be difficult.

29:37

You're not just going to play there and

29:39

be the best striker going. But I've been

29:41

watching some of the top strikes in the

29:43

Premier League with me. You know you've got

29:45

Harlan's, Ollie Watkins, things that they do. I'm

29:47

watching games that I've played as

29:49

well on my own just ten minute videos at

29:51

home and seeing what I can do to improve

29:53

playing up front because if that's where

29:55

I'm playing I've got to try and be

29:58

the best I can playing up there. Like

30:00

I said, it's difficult to be games sometimes where

30:02

I'm not involved and I feel like I've not

30:04

contributed anything and I'm being games where I score

30:06

a couple of dollars and feel like I've done

30:09

my bit for the team. I think

30:11

just every game that you play you just kind of

30:13

gain that confidence with it. In terms

30:15

of those videos you've watched the likes of Watkins and

30:17

Harlan, what have you picked up and looked at crime

30:19

bringing to your own games? Just

30:21

different things. I've got to be off the

30:24

ball, on the ball, different ones that work

30:26

against them at heart. I think Harlan's difficult

30:28

ones because he is the probably best player

30:30

we've seen for a very, very long time.

30:34

There's different things that you can learn when your team

30:36

has the ball. Obviously every team has

30:38

a different kind of structure of the way they

30:40

play but as a centre forward you see

30:42

what they do and see where their goals come

30:44

from. When the

30:47

ball's in wide areas where to go in the box to

30:49

give yourself a yard against the fenders so little things

30:51

like that probably I've been looking at the most. Do

30:53

you see your future moving forward as a centre forward?

30:56

I'm not sure. It was only the manager said

30:58

to me in pre-season that he might think about

31:00

putting me as a striker and I said okay

31:02

if you want to do that that's fine. So

31:05

I don't know what the future holds in terms of where I'm

31:07

going to play but I've played

31:09

right wing for nearly 10 years now so

31:12

not that I fully know the position, there's always your

31:14

learning but I feel comfortable out on the right wing

31:17

so if I'm playing centre forward then there's things I

31:19

have to do to learn if I'm going to be

31:21

playing that moving forward. You mentioned

31:23

him just now, he's got a great record

31:25

of taking players from lower leagues and

31:28

building him into Premier League stars and you're an

31:30

example of that, just how much of an influence

31:32

has he been for you? Yeah

31:34

and he brought me in I think

31:37

over four years ago now which

31:40

has felt much longer but no

31:44

he took the gamble on me because it was

31:46

at that time when he noticed championship players were

31:48

they ready for the Premier League and

31:50

since I've been here we've had a really

31:52

good relationship, had some amazing

31:55

games and yeah I feel

31:57

like he wouldn't say fully trust me because I don't think a

31:59

manager has a good team. everyone will have come out and say

32:01

he fully trusts the player but I feel like you know he's

32:04

got my back in and he knows what I'm about as a

32:06

player and as a person as well so

32:08

yeah we've got a really really good relationship.

32:10

And so this season as you stand now

32:12

in the Premier League is there frustration that

32:14

you maybe haven't built on those big results

32:16

just before the end of the year against

32:18

Manchester United and against Arsenal? It's been inconsistent

32:20

since then in terms of results? Yeah I

32:22

think that's probably been our most disappointing thing

32:24

is the consistency. You know we

32:27

just come off the back of two really

32:29

good victories against Brentford and Everton and

32:31

on the weekends there was an opportunity to go

32:34

three out of three on the bounce and you

32:36

know maximum points from three games so disappointing. I

32:38

think we've been there a couple of times this

32:40

season where we've not picked up on previous results

32:42

but you know there's a lot of games to

32:44

be played and a lot of games to

32:47

be played with teams around us so you know

32:49

we want to finish in you know the top

32:51

European places we don't rely on our European campaign

32:53

to do that of course we won't go all

32:55

the way in our European campaign but I think

32:57

we want to finish in the top European places

33:00

through the league so we have 10-11 games left

33:02

into the season with some really difficult fixes but

33:04

you know it's in our hands and you know

33:06

now it's crunch time as they say. And

33:09

coming back to you personally how much has the

33:11

Euros this summer been a driver for you

33:13

in terms of just going above and beyond doing the extra

33:15

bits of work to try and maximise

33:17

your full potential? I

33:19

wouldn't say you know I think I've been in this position

33:22

four with a major tournament you know I think I'll ask

33:24

you at the World Cup and probably let

33:26

it play too much of a part

33:28

on my game which you know benefited me

33:30

in a in a bad way so I

33:32

think this year was just go back to

33:34

playing football go back to what you're doing

33:36

you love football growing up so continue that

33:38

that love of football through the season you

33:41

know I think I've done that and you know you

33:43

can see some of my best stuff this season so

33:47

yeah of course the summer's a really big opportunity

33:49

but I think you only get there from doing

33:51

what you do week in week out so you

33:53

have to consistently you know sweep work consistently getting

33:55

results and it comes down to me being consistently good week

33:57

in week out so that's something that I have to do.

34:00

to give the manager a headache.

34:06

I really enjoyed listening to that. Good to hear that

34:08

he kind of watches himself back and wants to land

34:10

from that. We were talking about that one, but we

34:12

weren't going to let discussion there. So

34:16

you expect him to be at the Euros. Obviously, he's in the

34:18

squad for these next two games, but do you expect him to

34:20

be at the Euros? I think it's going to

34:22

be really close for Bowen. I don't think he's probably

34:25

like a nailed-on starter. I don't think he will

34:27

be. But if you look at a 23-man

34:29

squad, not 26 as well, you

34:31

think two per position, you

34:33

could argue that he could cover the right

34:35

wing slot really well behind Kiyosaka, maybe, and

34:37

also play center forward, as he's shown this

34:39

season, as he's learning from Erlich Haaland, as

34:41

he says in Oli Watkins. So there

34:44

are a few players who are capable of playing

34:46

in two positions that well. And obviously, he's shown

34:48

that he is one of the best finishers in

34:51

the Premier League. And he's so quick, he's so

34:53

good at getting in behind. And certainly, you can

34:55

picture a scenario where later

34:57

in the tournament against a good team, there might

34:59

be some more space to counter-attack for England, and

35:02

he could be really devastating. But I think because

35:04

a 23-man squad is going to be so close,

35:06

and it's interesting to hear him say how he's

35:08

not thinking about it in that sense, because he

35:10

did before, and it hurt him

35:12

the way his performances were. So I think

35:14

he must know he's going to be on

35:16

the line, maybe. It might be an

35:18

injury or two that could open the door for him, or

35:20

he scores another 10 goals this season, and then he's in.

35:23

But yeah, really close. But certainly, he's got to be in

35:25

the conversation for sure. Yes, he talks about

35:27

trying to get 20 goals as well, doesn't he,

35:29

this season? He's on

35:31

14 at the moment, so he's close to that

35:33

target. He's played, what, Hereford, it was

35:35

10 years ago, I think he said at the beginning

35:37

of that, Hull, West Ham. Do you feel there's a

35:40

so-called bigger club waiting in the wings to get

35:42

hold of Jarrabone? There could easily be.

35:44

He's a fantastic player, Sam was saying

35:46

he's versatile, he's got fantastic composure in

35:49

the final third, scored a decisive goal

35:51

in the Europa Conference League final for

35:53

West Ham, and whenever the team played

35:55

badly, you know you're always going to

35:57

get 10 out of 10.

35:59

From Darrabone. Berlin 18 goals so

36:01

far this season across all competitions.

36:04

As Sam was saying he plays on the right side he can

36:06

play a center forward. I think

36:08

his big problem is nothing

36:10

to do with him and everything to

36:12

do with the fact that the other players

36:14

in contention play for bigger clubs but

36:17

I think you are and maybe people might

36:19

look down their noses at him because he

36:21

plays for West Ham but he utterly should

36:23

be in the conversation to go to the

36:25

Euros with everyone else. Yeah I agree with

36:27

that. Cole Palmer or Cold Palmer

36:29

certainly doesn't seem to suffer with the nerves

36:31

does he at the moment? It's got him

36:33

an England call-up as well. 11 goals

36:36

and eight Premier League assists. How

36:38

impressive is he? Fantastic

36:40

I mean he's utterly vindicated his

36:43

decision to force his way out

36:45

of Manchester City. Huge price tag

36:47

he arrived for £45 million,

36:49

justified that and then some.

36:52

It's kind of been mixed feelings from

36:55

him. Some people like him some people

36:57

really like him. I think it's his

37:00

ability to score goals, pick

37:02

out the right pass in the final third.

37:04

It's his versatility as well. It's

37:07

his leadership and his willingness to take

37:09

responsibility in key moments too. You get

37:11

a penalty he doesn't bow to seniority

37:13

obviously he was with Raheem Sterling at

37:15

Manchester City but he wants to take

37:17

the penalties. He wants to be the

37:19

guy on whose shoulders the points might

37:21

rest and I think as far as

37:23

he is concerned he is the guy

37:25

who was leading Chelsea into the next

37:27

era. How crucial is he

37:29

then in terms of getting them perhaps to

37:32

another final this season as well does

37:34

it kind of all hang on him? Yeah

37:36

I think to an extent and maybe Nicholas Jackson

37:39

too who's actually his goal record is very

37:41

impressive this season. I think people have talked

37:43

a lot about Jackson calling him raw and

37:46

a bit sort of loose but his numbers

37:48

are very impressive and they were but yeah

37:50

Palmer's the man he's the main man he's

37:52

the guy around which the whole team sort

37:54

of revolves and yeah I can't imagine he

37:56

was one of the players who's too nervous

37:58

before the league comes. final. Do you think

38:01

in terms of that as well, the fact

38:03

that he's doing so well,

38:05

that eases a little bit of pressure on

38:07

Pochettino? I'm sort of not surprised Pochettino's come

38:09

out and said that because I feel it

38:11

almost helps his case if he says, look,

38:14

I've got youngsters here. Is

38:16

that, you know, his Chelsea future almost hanging

38:18

on that as well, you know, in terms

38:20

of them getting to another final? Do you

38:22

think Pochettino? Yeah, I mean, if

38:25

they win the FA Cup, that A, that

38:27

answers some questions about Pochettino's sort of trophy

38:30

winning pedigree in England after obviously his time

38:32

at Spurs. And B, I think it

38:34

could easily be portrayed and it would be seen as a

38:37

sign of progress that this team is developing. Especially if they

38:39

went, you know, if they went to Wembley and lost, if

38:41

they then go back and win, that shows well over the

38:43

course of three or four months, Chelsea have

38:45

got better. That's a big argument to make. And

38:48

it a little bit flies back to the

38:50

Newcastle debate with Eddie Howe about this

38:53

summer, there's a lot of managers moving, a

38:55

lot of clubs sort of merry-go-rounding. And,

38:57

you know, whether Chelsea are involved in that, we'll have to

38:59

wait and see that all the noises are suggesting that Pochettino's

39:02

sort of fine. But obviously

39:04

we know that Chelsea have big ambition as well,

39:06

like Newcastle, and where they've been in the

39:08

league this season isn't good enough. So for him, I think the

39:11

FA Cup is a really big opportunity now to

39:13

sort of say, I am the man for the

39:15

long term and I can help

39:17

these players fulfil their potential because we know the potential

39:19

is big. One player who is pretty guaranteed

39:21

to be in Garros's tactics team for the first

39:23

game at the Uris, as long as he's fit,

39:26

is the England captain Harry Kane. He's

39:28

broken yet another record as Bayern Munich

39:30

beat bottom club Darmstadt 5-2. He scored

39:32

his 31st league goal,

39:35

that's the most, in a debut

39:37

season in the Bundesliga, but there is an

39:40

injury concern. He will still travel to join

39:42

up with the England squad for games against

39:44

Brazil and Belgium, but he twisted his ankle.

39:46

I think he got it caught in the

39:48

net, it was quite a peculiar injury. Another

39:51

record though, broken by Kane, are you

39:53

surprised by what he's done? No, no, no,

39:55

no, I mean, Harry Kane. Oh, OK, fine.

39:58

Look at the guy. What I

40:00

would say is I think a lot of

40:02

players have come from Germany to England, and we've

40:04

always looked at them and thought like Sancho for

40:06

example, they've not quite hit the same heights as

40:08

they did in Germany. It's interesting

40:10

to have a player go the other way, to see

40:12

how that level compares. And this is

40:14

not at all meant in a way to play

40:17

down Kane's achievements, but I do think it's

40:19

becoming quite clear, seeing how well he's done.

40:22

And the level in Germany simply isn't as high

40:24

as it is in the Premier League. And every time

40:26

he scores on Patrick or scores from his own half,

40:28

you think, why me? This guy's too good

40:30

for that league really, which is not

40:33

meant as a sort of slight on the Bundesliga, it

40:35

was just effort and competition. And

40:37

you know, a different level of financial firepower and

40:39

all those things. But for a man like Kane

40:41

to leave England for the first time, not speak

40:43

the language, obviously they all speak pretty good English

40:45

in the Bayern dressing room, but still it's a

40:48

whole new environment, a whole new culture, a whole

40:50

new league. And the way he's hit the ground running

40:52

is just completely proved beyond all

40:54

doubt that he is an absolutely

40:57

world class striker. And I think everyone knew that,

40:59

but there was still, as ever in English football,

41:01

like still people who sniped and prodded and mentioned

41:03

trophies and all those things. But look

41:05

at his numbers and look at what he's doing. It's just, it's a

41:07

phenomenon. Yeah, there was almost that situation, wasn't there,

41:10

when Angela Koppel came in, it was like, oh, is

41:12

he going to sort of regret going

41:14

to Bayern Munich? Do you think he's got

41:16

any regrets? No, zero. Even

41:18

allowing for that defeat yesterday, because they'd

41:21

scored in each of their 39 games

41:23

since then, the players have taken

41:26

responsibility, they've stopped hiding behind Harry

41:28

Kane. To be fair to the players, most

41:30

of the side under who

41:33

or behind whom, they kind

41:36

of stepped back and allowed him to take

41:38

centre stage, most of them are gone from

41:40

Spurs. And it's a completely reshaped defence, midfield

41:45

and only a couple of players in attack,

41:47

Kouluszewski and

41:50

so on. And

41:52

Rachaelsson obviously is finding

41:55

his way. I think the

41:57

interesting thing with Kane is that He

42:00

scored 30 goals last season and Spurs

42:02

finished 8th. So it isn't a

42:04

great shock that he's gone and scored 30 goals in

42:06

another league. And sometimes we beat up the German league.

42:10

You could argue with some justification because the

42:12

Premier League is a stronger league. But as

42:14

far as he's concerned, what he's doing now

42:16

is what he's always done. Do

42:18

we know any more about this injury? It's quite

42:21

an unusual one. He collided, didn't he, with the

42:23

net and post. You see it here. And

42:26

he sort of feels like he's twisted his ankle,

42:28

I think. Yeah. You know,

42:30

it looks pretty bad there in terms of he's made a gargantuan

42:33

hole in the net as well in doing so. Do

42:36

we know how long he'll be out for? I

42:38

think we're still waiting for official diagnosis. The one thing

42:40

that's probably concerning is that he has had a history

42:42

of ankle issues before, where he's sort of gone over

42:44

them and had issues there in

42:46

the past. So wait and see, I

42:48

think. OK. I mean, bottom

42:50

line is that will not be the best

42:52

of news for Garroszak, will it? No, we just

42:54

saw a shot off Thomas Tuchel as well. That'll

42:57

be bad news for him as well, because obviously

42:59

he was bought for the business end of the

43:01

Champions League. And it was at that stage that

43:03

Bayern came unstuck last season. Had they had a

43:05

strike and they might have given

43:07

a little bit more of a problem to

43:09

Manchester City. So longer term,

43:12

certainly for Kane himself, he went there to win

43:14

trophies. So he would want to make sure that

43:16

he's OK. But obviously for Garroszak, I

43:19

think it'd be less of a problem for Southgate than

43:21

for Tuchel actually, because these are friendlies. These are

43:23

opportunities to see what works and what doesn't

43:25

ahead of the Euros. As far as Bayern

43:27

are concerned, it's something that they'll be very

43:29

anxious about, because I think it'll be a

43:31

bigger loss for him in the short term,

43:33

Tuchel, than it would be for Southgate. Just

43:36

very briefly, he is going to travel with

43:38

the England squad, though, I mean, to join

43:40

up with him.