0:31

Welcome to sustainable

0:31

packaging with Cory Connors.

0:34

Today's guest is Taja Dockendorf , who

0:34

is the pulp and wire founder and owner.

0:40

Hey Tasha, how are you? Hi, pleasure.

0:42

Thanks Corey for having me. Oh, it's an honor to

0:43

have you all in the show.

0:45

We've gone back and forth a

0:45

little bit, but I I'm excited

0:48

to hear about your background. What, what got you to this point in

0:52

your career? Oh, goodness. All right. That's a bit of a longer story.

0:55

I initially started out

0:55

as an industrial designer.

0:58

So my love for automobiles and cars and

0:58

a really it's a 360 immersive experience

1:03

of what happens when you're in a

1:03

vehicle, which is really what drew me.

1:07

Ultimately, my background is as

1:07

a designer to the CPG category.

1:10

So consumer packaged goods, because

1:10

that same feeling you get when you sit

1:14

in a car is the same feeling you should

1:14

have when you're buying a product.

1:17

It. Touch taste, smell, feel story.

1:21

It's an immersive experience. Yes. So I mean, actually that's the

1:23

short version of my story, but

1:25

that's really, what's gotten me

1:25

to where I am today and pulp wire.

1:29

Our focus really is in that

1:29

consumer CPG category for food,

1:33

beverage, wellness, and cannabis. We do a lot with also B2B companies

1:35

in the more sustainable space as well.

1:39

And everything from market research. All the way through creative and how that

1:41

market research comes to life beautifully.

1:45

Cause without you can have beautiful

1:45

creative, but if it's not founded in

1:47

research, it doesn't always work as well.

1:50

and the last piece is how do you bring it to market? So you can have the most beautiful

1:52

creative founded in research, but

1:55

if you don't know how to bring it to

1:55

market or have consumers know that

1:57

you exist, doesn't really go anywhere. So those are the three parts of

1:59

the company that we focus on.

2:02

Great point. Great points. And what was your last

2:04

job before this job?

2:09

So I've always been on the

2:09

design side on the agency side.

2:11

And that honestly, as a designer,

2:11

that was a big part of me creating the

2:14

company was as the designer inside the

2:14

other agencies and learning everything

2:19

I wanted to be where I wanted to sit

2:19

at the table, who I wanted to show up

2:22

as for the brands and how I would wanna

2:22

help them move forward and be more

2:26

effective with how we're bringing creative

2:26

to life across all these different.

2:31

That's amazing. A lot of people don't know this, but

2:32

I studied advertising in college and

2:36

wanted, wanted to do what you do. And that was my original career choice.

2:40

Actually. My first choice was punk rock band,

2:41

then advertising agency, then packaging.

2:46

So interesting. How we all.

2:49

Weave our way into this world. Right? We do.

2:51

And I didn't think my path was gonna

2:51

lead me to graphic design in particular.

2:56

I remember my father joking

2:56

with me in high school when

2:58

I was looking at art schools. And he said, you should

3:00

look at graphic design. I said, no, never.

3:03

I go, the last thing I ever wanna

3:03

be doing is staring at a computer

3:05

all day long at a desk and low and

3:05

behold, I have a standing desk.

3:09

So I like to think I didn't

3:09

fully phone . But yeah, here we

3:11

are. You've succeeded then that's it.

3:14

You win I love that.

3:17

So what is pulp and wire is

3:17

you guys are an agency, is

3:21

that well, there's 20 of us,

3:21

so we're bigger than a studio.

3:25

I think agency can be such a cold term,

3:25

but yeah, that's probably where we land.

3:30

Well, it doesn't have to be it sounds

3:30

like you have a, a great agency

3:32

that's very warm and uh, very inviting

3:36

. We really try. It's very much based on, I mean,

3:36

again, coming as that designer

3:39

from the inside, looking out,

3:39

it's a very solution oriented.

3:43

We wanna create the most beautiful

3:43

packaging that's founded in research.

3:47

With growth and trend

3:47

and audience in mind.

3:50

And again, sustainability, who are we

3:50

talking to and how are we gonna create

3:53

the best product to speak to them? But we wanna do that by hearing from

3:55

the client and being collective teams.

3:58

So yes it is. I, I go for long term client relationships

3:59

and how we can keep them long term so that

4:03

we can continue to see their brands grow,

4:03

which is a really important part for me.

4:07

But I do think that brings the warmth to what we do be. We care there's passion

4:09

involved in what we do.

4:11

It sounds like there's a

4:11

lot of empathy and passion.

4:13

And that to me is the key with all

4:13

of this business stuff that we do.

4:18

If you don't love what you do. Why are you doing it?

4:22

right. Yeah. So like that. Yeah.

4:24

Time to time to try something new. I agree.

4:27

So what lessons have you learned when,

4:27

when you're working with all of these

4:31

startups, as far as trying to focus

4:31

on sustainable packaging, like, let's

4:37

say you had a customer or a client

4:37

come to you and they said we wanna be

4:41

sustainable and you tried and it didn't

4:41

work, or, or you, you did something

4:45

and it worked, you know, tell us about. Well,

4:48

I think the biggest, if someone, if a

4:48

client comes to us and says, we want a

4:51

sustainable brand, the first thing we

4:51

unpack is what does sustainability mean?

4:55

Yes. And that is the, that's the key because

4:55

they sometimes don't know it's a buzzword.

5:00

Well, we just, we know we should be sustainable. We know we shouldn't harm the earth.

5:03

We know we should not be in plastic or

5:03

we know we shouldn't import all of our

5:07

products or our ingredients from China. Well, well, what does that mean?

5:11

Do you wanna create more us jobs? Do you wanna, you know, what does

5:12

the carbon footprint look like?

5:15

And if you wanna make your own custom packing. Do you have the money to do that?

5:20

right. So there's so many questions that

5:21

when I hear sustainability, that

5:23

kind of set off different, you

5:23

know, triggers in my mind of, okay.

5:26

What does that mean to you? We've had a recent client that

5:27

we did work for cannabis client.

5:30

They're based here in Maine called sweet dirt. And we did all their cannabis

5:33

packaging for them and the, the paper.

5:38

So this was, this was an interesting sustainability story. That didn't mean to happen

5:40

this way, but they wanted to be

5:43

as sustainable as they could. So we made sure that with

5:44

our folded boxes, that they

5:46

were folded not having glue. And if there was glue, it had to be

5:48

fully like ultimately water soluble.

5:52

We used a foil that was recyclable

5:52

and compostable, which is fascinating.

5:57

Cause I didn't know that that

5:57

existed until we got into that phase.

5:59

I didn't either. That's great. The packaging was done by a printer an

6:01

hour and a half north of us where our

6:04

studio is, the client was in Maine and

6:04

then the paper was from the sappy mill.

6:08

That was just up the road from the printer. So the paper.

6:12

The process, the printing, everything

6:12

was within one and a half states of

6:17

rotation before it got to the end user.

6:19

And that to me was a totally different

6:19

sustainability story than what some people

6:24

think about sustainability, you know,

6:24

do you want recyclable, compostable?

6:28

What does that look like? So that was kind of a fun one for

6:29

me, but I always, I always push

6:32

it back to the client and I say

6:32

sustainability is an amazing place to be.

6:35

And it's something to, you know,

6:35

strive for, but you also have

6:39

to be mindful of the product. Because you can't jeopardize the

6:40

product for sustainability sometimes

6:44

because then you're jeopardizing the

6:44

user experience or they're getting

6:47

a product that they don't like, and

6:47

they're never gonna buy it again.

6:50

Right. And then you can't make a difference

6:50

and you can't put out a sustainable

6:53

product, so it can be ambitious well said. Yeah.

6:56

Great points. It's so key that if, if we ship

6:57

something to someone and it's broken.

7:02

Or we ship someone to someone

7:02

and it's stale or gone bad.

7:06

These things are not sustainable anymore. And not that's.

7:11

I totally agree with you. And that's the issue. I think we're still up against

7:13

with compostability and

7:15

recyclability, is that the freshness. Just isn't there.

7:17

I've seen a couple and I think it's sappy

7:17

that is starting to do dusted pouches

7:22

with it's a waxed lined paper bag that

7:22

is fully compostable, which is awesome.

7:27

And they do testing on it from a

7:27

freshness standpoint and it's, it's

7:30

really close to being there, but again,

7:30

the barrier cost, you know, if a lot of

7:35

people aren't demanding the stock for

7:35

their product, the cost goes up supply

7:39

chain issues that we're starting to see. So again, What does sustainability

7:41

really mean for the brand?

7:44

And if that's part of their mission,

7:44

how do you weave it into that?

7:47

You know, their ethos. That is such a good point.

7:51

We, we need to push this issue so

7:51

that these items become more cost

7:57

effective and mainstream and available.

8:02

All of these words are,

8:02

are, were not there yet.

8:04

Right? So well, exactly. And I had someone say to me the other day,

8:06

they were like, is sustainability becoming

8:10

like a, like natural or all natural?

8:12

Is it becoming a greenwashed term? And I think you and I spoke

8:14

about this a little bit also.

8:17

You know, prior is, and that's

8:17

such an interesting piece for me.

8:19

It's like, oh my gosh, is that becoming

8:19

the new, all natural, where it's just

8:22

assumed or, you know, how are people

8:22

taking advantage of that term and

8:26

really not being as sustainable as maybe

8:26

what their audience thinks they are.

8:32

I don't see that at all. I'd be curious on your standpoint on that.

8:35

Oh, there's so much greenwashing it.

8:37

It's very sad and it's very

8:37

frustrating from some, someone

8:41

who really is sustainable and does

8:41

sustainable things with packaging.

8:46

There's so many things that we see that.

8:49

You know, they say

8:49

recyclable, they say recycled.

8:52

We know they're not it says number

8:52

seven with a recycled symbol around it.

8:56

That's not recyclable. That's other, come on guys.

8:59

Just say what it is. And let's be honest

9:01

with each other, right. And I'm all.

9:03

And I'm all for the idea of having

9:03

that recyclability, that ultimate

9:07

compostability, but it does make

9:07

it tough when to compost it.

9:10

You have to send it to a certain composting plant. You can't just throw it in

9:12

your backyard, in the dirt.

9:15

And I think that is that barrier

9:15

still where people are like, oh, well,

9:18

you're saying that it's compostable,

9:18

but I have to, I have to send it

9:22

back to this company or I've gotta

9:22

do this to really make a difference.

9:25

And I appreciate the fact that

9:25

they're not using plastic or they're

9:27

using more of a earth friendly

9:27

plastic, but they're still barriers.

9:31

Yeah, absolutely. I I interviewed a great company the

9:32

CEO, Kate from sun and swell mm-hmm and

9:37

they're working on this project locally

9:37

where you can send it back to them.

9:41

Mm-hmm and they will industrial compos

9:41

packaging, and it's working for them.

9:47

And, you know, if more companies could do

9:47

that kind of thing, we could really make

9:52

a major impact, but it would have to.

9:55

Like you said kind of

9:55

regional and well, interesting

9:58

communicated. One of, one of my other clients TRF farm.

10:02

They, they basically cut out $12 million

10:02

of business in their wholesale site.

10:06

Cause they didn't wanna sell in plastic clam shells anymore. Wow.

10:09

Yeah. So if you're looking for a, really, a

10:09

brand that cares Tiara farm they're in

10:14

upstate New York and they do organic

10:14

granolas and nuts and seeds and chocolate

10:18

covered, you know, delicious, you

10:18

know, sundries and things like that.

10:21

But they they did, they, they basically

10:21

stopped that whole set of their business

10:25

that was selling anything in plastic. And they're using a company called.

10:29

Totally give them a plug, but they

10:29

have the compostable zipper top

10:32

Gued bags that are being used. And again, in some cases, if you don't

10:34

have, if you're, if your state recycling

10:38

or the town that you're in, doesn't

10:38

have that certain type of recycling.

10:41

You can just send the bags back to the

10:41

company and they'll take care of it.

10:44

But most, at least here in

10:44

Maine, you know, they're easy

10:47

to be compostable and recycled. Which is really cool.

10:50

So that level of sustainability, I do

10:50

love seeing with some of our brands.

10:53

We're just like, all right, we don't

10:53

wanna make the world a worst place.

10:56

And we realize that we're gonna lose money

10:56

doing it, but in the end, we're winning.

10:59

Yeah. Do you feel like it

11:01

creates a loyal customer?

11:04

I think it does. If you put the message out there the right way. They have to know.

11:07

And again, this comes back to what I

11:07

was talking about before is that if

11:10

the, you could have this great ethos

11:10

and this great mission, but if you're

11:13

not telling your story properly and

11:13

you're not getting it out there, no

11:17

one's gonna know what you're doing. And then it's kind of like for nothing.

11:19

Yeah. So it is, it's part of you

11:20

gotta be noisy when you do it.

11:23

And be able to back it up too. And that's, I mean, that is a good

11:25

place for social media and LinkedIn

11:28

and, you know, newsletters and any

11:28

opportunity podcasts to tell that story.

11:33

Yeah. I agree. Love podcasts. so tell us about the name, where did

11:36

pulp and wire, where did that come from?

11:41

So I, when I first started the company,

11:41

it was at TDOC creative partners and

11:45

that was as just myself and then, you

11:45

know, an account manager, my intern.

11:49

And as the company grew and I was in

11:49

a huge loft space up in like a third

11:53

floor of an old warehouse and I was

11:53

moving the company to a new location

11:59

and a location where we still are

11:59

today was right at ground level, in an

12:03

old retail space, right in the heart

12:03

of the old port, which is lovely.

12:06

But I didn't want my name on the windows. And that was, it came down to,

12:08

that was the name that worked

12:10

then when I was starting off,

12:10

but it wasn't who I wanted to be.

12:13

And it wasn't cuz really, I didn't

12:13

want the brand to be about me.

12:16

I wanted to be about the work

12:16

that we do and kind of the

12:18

lifeline of the work that we do. So in the back of my mind, I'd always

12:20

had kind of pulp and wire floating

12:22

around there thinking that pulp.

12:24

Is really where the packaging starts, the paper pulp. Yeah.

12:27

So it is the foundational

12:27

piece of packaging.

12:30

And then wire is how

12:30

we bring it to market.

12:32

So how we're then getting the word out

12:32

there and how we are pushing, you know,

12:35

what it is that we're creating out to the

12:35

masses so that they can, again, you know,

12:39

take part in a sustainable or an earth

12:39

friendly product and be excited about it.

12:42

So it's those two dichotomies of how

12:42

it's created and then how we push it out.

12:47

I mean, I love that lots

12:47

of different things.

12:49

I mean, you know, the pulp fiction

12:49

side or pulp, orange juice and

12:52

fresh squeeze, we'll take all of it. You know, it all, it all works.

12:55

If you spin it the right way. Yeah. I didn't want my name on the windows

12:57

and that's really what it came down to.

12:59

I wanted something that was more

12:59

collective of what my team did as

13:03

I was growing and something that

13:03

everyone could rally around versus.

13:06

A law firm that felt like it had someone's name on it. Oh, I like that.

13:10

It definitely sounds. It's very unique and it's very intriguing.

13:14

So when you guys contacted

13:14

me, I was very interested

13:17

immediately. do we do paper mache? Are we creating pattern thing?

13:20

You never now it's tos up. I thought it was a magazine at first and

13:22

I thought, oh no, this is really cool.

13:26

So well done. Good. Thank you.

13:28

Yeah. So can you tell us a story about something

13:30

that's happened , in your recent times?

13:35

That was kind of funny or interesting?

13:38

Oh, funny or interesting. I don't know.

13:41

It's funny. I think we've all kind of gone through

13:41

this and which has been like the,

13:43

the COVID change that we've all seen. You know, I don't know if

13:46

it's really humorous for us. It's it was life changing in a lot

13:47

of different ways because we had to

13:51

pivot very quickly and I'm never one

13:51

to kind of curl up in a ball and die.

13:55

It's more like, okay, where's the solution

13:55

and how are we gonna move it forward?

13:59

But what's interesting from,

13:59

it was seeing how all of our.

14:01

Changed and evolved and how their mission

14:01

and their ethos and better for you.

14:06

Brands really evolved with it too.

14:08

So you'd assume that supply chain

14:08

things changed things weren't available.

14:12

So we saw, you know, brands wanting

14:12

to create something new in the

14:15

space, but having to use more

14:15

off the shelf packaging, but then

14:18

looking at how do we create, you

14:18

know, sustainable labeling systems

14:21

or how do we create a new soap box? That's just a folded piece.

14:24

What I do think is interesting

14:24

is how brands have evolved during

14:27

COVID and their thoughtfulness as to

14:27

how they're really speaking to the

14:32

customer versus trying to talk at them.

14:34

And I know we were kind of moving

14:34

that way anyway, but really being

14:37

able to see the opportunity of them.

14:40

Telling the story that consumers

14:40

really resonate with and bringing in

14:44

the, the emotional, tactile pieces

14:44

and speaking to where the consumer

14:48

is in their buying behavior and

14:48

on the shelf, or honestly, online.

14:51

Cause that's where everyone was. That change, I think is the most

14:52

interesting thing that we've seen is

14:55

that brands really started to listen. And they're now really

14:57

putting it into effect.

14:59

It absolutely feels like people

14:59

are, are putting their money where

15:03

their mouth is and, and really. Making changes that are positive and

15:05

really doing what their consumers want.

15:10

I agree. It's, it's an interesting,

15:11

positive benefit of this

15:15

very strange last couple of years.

15:18

Have you seen that too? Have you seen that, that shift

15:19

in that change, especially in

15:21

the brand you've been talking to? Yeah.

15:24

And. You know, it's no longer well,

15:24

we'd really like to be sustainable.

15:28

It's we're going to be sustainable. Yeah.

15:30

Help us, or move out of the way

15:30

and, and show us, who can help us.

15:35

And it's like aggressive and I love it.

15:38

And it makes me happy because so

15:38

many years, , I just celebrated my

15:42

20th year with Lanceford Aurora and.

15:45

So many years, so many times people

15:45

have said, oh yeah, we'd like to be,

15:49

you know, it used to be called green. Remember that?

15:52

Yeah. They would say we wanna be green

15:52

and I would say, okay, great.

15:55

Here's some options for you. That's too expensive, like,

15:56

well, that's green back then.

16:00

It was 10, 20% more. Yeah,

16:03

it was, and no, it's not. Back in that time.

16:05

Everything had to have green on it

16:05

to begin with, to look natural and

16:09

it needed to be craft paper or

16:09

something of a natural texture.

16:13

And I think that's, again, a really

16:13

interesting change that we've

16:16

seen over the past five years.

16:18

It's just the creative explosion that all

16:18

NA we don't even say all natural anymore.

16:23

It's, it's organic. right. You know, it's, it's non GMO.

16:28

And then how there are no more rules

16:28

when it comes to organic and all natural

16:34

it, you can do whatever you want. You don't have to look a certain

16:35

way to have someone perceive

16:38

you as a natural product. And I think that's, what's really been fun

16:39

and opened up the floodgate too, of this

16:42

really cool design that we're seeing out. it does seem like it's improved a lot.

16:48

I agree. It's punchy. It's right.

16:50

Where like, you know, you can

16:50

have a totally organic product

16:53

that looks like it's rooted in

16:53

the eighties and it still works.

16:58

And the messaging is in, you know,

16:58

in alignment with the consumer

17:01

and what they're shopping for. And then of course the packaging, what

17:02

does it feel like and how are they,

17:05

what's their unboxing experience at home? That's creating consumer longevity.

17:10

We like to say at Berg, it's

17:10

the promise of what's inside.

17:13

Yeah. And, and that we love that about packaging

17:13

it's so it's so exciting, you know,

17:19

so especially when you can have those

17:19

little moments of like a or intrigue

17:22

when you're opening a box and it's like

17:22

a little message on the flap or in Easter

17:26

egg, as we call it something that you're

17:26

not expecting within the packaging, that's

17:29

always the nice little, you know, fun

17:29

moment where consumers can really engage.

17:34

I love that. And that's what they post on Instagram.

17:36

Right? Mm-hmm exactly. , that's how you, that's how you

17:39

get the product into the home.

17:41

And then you have a relationship with

17:41

the customer and then they're sharing

17:45

it because they're excited because

17:45

they found something that maybe they

17:47

didn't think someone else had seen. Yeah, I love that.

17:50

I, I have a question for you that I think

17:50

is very specific to you and I'm, I'm

17:56

excited to hear what you have to say. I, I know of a company called free water.

18:01

They were on the podcast. And have you heard of them?

18:04

No, they give away water mm-hmm

18:04

and that water has advertising on

18:11

the label to pay for the water. So, do you feel like that's possible with

18:13

other kinds of packaging in the future?

18:20

Meaning a CPG company could sell

18:20

the space on the back of the tube

18:25

or to a, to another company that's

18:25

maybe in line with their values.

18:30

And then that is guaranteed

18:30

to get into their consumer.

18:34

wow. That's interesting. Cuz I had not heard of that before.

18:38

I, that would take some market

18:38

testing honestly, and I would

18:42

really want to dig into where,

18:42

where those products are being sold.

18:46

So if it's being sold in the

18:46

whole foods, which is a perceived

18:49

buying experience right. And different, you know, brands and

18:51

stuff like that, and you pick up your

18:53

favorite, you know, organic vegan

18:53

plant based macaroni cheese, and you

18:59

turn it over and there's an ad for K. Or, I mean, so then are you creating

19:01

distrust all of a sudden inadvertently

19:07

or a brand that maybe they didn't have

19:07

a good experience with, but how would

19:10

you know that as the brand and now

19:10

all of a sudden they're not purchasing

19:14

their product because of a separate

19:14

experience that you had no control over.

19:19

Yeah. So there's so many like, and I guess

19:19

that's more, the psychology that I

19:23

kind of go into is, oh, how is that

19:23

going to affect the buyer in the

19:27

moment when they're buying it on the. It's one thing if you're

19:29

direct to consumer, right?

19:32

So if you're B2C and you're

19:32

online, you're buying it.

19:34

It's kind of like Al LA used to do this.

19:37

And some of the in-home shopping boxes,

19:37

they throw in a coupon of another brand,

19:40

or here's a sample of another product

19:40

because it's already in your home.

19:44

You're not gonna send it back and be like, who, why are you, why are you marketing to me this way?

19:48

But I do worry for those who are actually

19:48

in the midst of the buying experience

19:52

and on the shelf and in the aisle. Would that be a turn off to.

19:55

Because you can't control the

19:55

experience that they have had up to that

19:59

point. Great point, great point.

20:02

And I mean, it's fascinating. I mean, it's a great way for

20:04

brands to work together, but

20:06

maybe it's on the inside. maybe it's on the inside.

20:09

where it's a little, it's a

20:09

coupon that says, Hey, you, if you

20:13

loved our product, we'd love to

20:13

introduce you to our friends at X.

20:16

And you know, actually that does bring

20:16

me to an, a personal antidote here where

20:20

yeah, I was buying brand new brand. I wanted to try.

20:24

And I purchased online and as part

20:24

of their online purchase, when I was

20:29

checking out, they said, oh, do you

20:29

wanna add on these other products?

20:32

And there were not products that were theirs. They were friends of the brand.

20:35

So other brands that they were trying to promote. Wow.

20:38

Yeah. I wanna try this product sounds awesome.

20:40

So it's very similar, but how

20:40

they were doing it in the direct

20:42

to consumer side online, however,

20:42

the, the process and was not great.

20:49

So what happened was. I got my product.

20:52

They never shipped out the

20:52

other cuz it was another drop

20:54

ship from the other company. So the logistics were not, they were

20:55

still working out the logistics.

20:58

I think mm-hmm it just, it wasn't tight. So I never got my product

21:00

from the other company. It shipped somewhere in San

21:02

Francisco, landed there.

21:04

They said, oh, it's been delivered. It took me three or four customer

21:05

service emails to explain the situation

21:10

to then get me over to the other

21:10

company, to explain the situation

21:13

again, to be like, I didn't get it. There's like, oh, it shows this delivered.

21:16

I'm not in San Francisco and

21:16

it's no fault of their own, but

21:20

what happened was because of that,

21:20

it changed my opinion of both.

21:25

And it was, they tried really

21:25

hard, but at the same time, I was

21:27

like, this is way too much work to

21:27

get what a small $10 add-on was.

21:33

And it was more like, I just wanna let

21:33

you know, this is what's happening.

21:36

You're both young brands. You're trying to figure it out.

21:39

But unfortunately it kind of

21:39

like, by the time I got it, I

21:41

was like, oh, it's about time. right.

21:44

Oh, you did get it. Eventually I had to do a lot of work to ultimately

21:45

get it and I think would I,

21:50

would I buy from them again? I don't. I probably wouldn't go

21:52

through that experience again. So I would be weary of doing

21:54

another add-on because that

21:58

experience was just convoluted.

22:01

That's fascinating. Yeah. So many opportunities with advertising

22:03

and marketing I'm I'm huge fan and

22:08

a student I will always learn and

22:08

listen and enjoy it so well done.

22:13

Well, and I think what I would've preferred

22:13

to your point, when you talk about

22:16

advertising on the back, throw a coupon. Throw a little extra something,

22:19

send the order out and be like, Hey,

22:21

these are our friends at so-and-so. We'd love to give you 30% off on us.

22:25

If you'd like to try their

22:25

product, then let me go to

22:27

their website in order directly. I think it's when things become too

22:28

confusing and technology sometimes

22:32

gets the better of us and it's

22:32

not tight and it's not slick.

22:35

That's where you can, you

22:35

know, lose consumer trust.

22:38

But if it's a coupon and you're

22:38

driving the process and you're

22:41

saying you, these are our friends, we think you're gonna love them. Great.

22:44

Let them like then have

22:44

that adventure on their own.

22:47

Excellent. So how do people get in touch with you?

22:51

Oh, so, I mean, you can find me on

22:51

Instagram, just under, at Taja, TA J I

22:56

was a very early adopter of Instagram. That's how I got that.

23:00

wow. Just my name. However, it that's awesome.

23:03

I, an alert from Instagram two or

23:03

three times a day that someone's

23:06

trying to reset my password. So that's always fun. You can find me on LinkedIn

23:08

Taja DINOR at pulp and wire on

23:11

Instagram and pulp and wire.com.

23:14

And it's all spelled out

23:14

P U L P and D w I R E.

23:19

Excellent. Well, thank you so much, Tasha.

23:21

Thank you, Lance Aurora for

23:21

sponsoring this podcast.

23:23

We appreciate it. If you're listening, please

23:24

make sure you're subscribe.

23:26

So you don't list the next episode

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and we appreciate a review.

23:29

If you have a minute. Thank you so much. Thank you, Corey.