0:03

Many people forget

0:03

that the supply chain itself can

0:06

only correct and, and optimize

0:06

about 20% of the efficiency

0:11

rate in the entire supply chain. 80% is being decided when you

0:13

design a product and when you

0:16

create the product, right? And when you start making

0:18

sourcing decisions.

0:21

So this is where you actually define how

0:21

your supply chain looks at the end, right?

0:24

If you, if I define and design a product

0:24

where all my components come from across

0:30

the world of course I, my supply chain,

0:30

my carbon footprint is really big.

0:35

Good morning, good

0:35

afternoon, or good evening,

0:38

wherever you are in the world. This is the Sustainable Supply Chain

0:39

Podcast, the number one podcast

0:43

focusing on sustainability and supply

0:43

chains, and I'm your host, Tom Raftery.

0:49

Hi everyone. And welcome to episode 10 of the

0:49

sustainable supply chain podcast.

0:53

My name is Tom Raftery, and I'm

0:53

excited to be here with you today.

0:56

Sharing the latest insights and

0:56

trends in supply chain sustainability.

1:01

Today, we're talking to Hans Thalbauer

1:01

from UI Path and in upcoming episodes,

1:06

I'll be talking to Marcus Hoed from

1:06

Dutch X, talking about logistics.

1:10

Brian Merkling from Thinaer talking about

1:10

IOT, and Madhu from Schneider Electric

1:15

talking about Schneider Electric's own

1:15

improvements in their supply chain.

1:20

So fascinating episodes coming up. If you want to be sure to catch

1:22

them, follow this podcast in

1:25

your podcast, app of choice. Before we kick off today's show.

1:28

I want to take a moment to express

1:28

my gratitude to all of this

1:31

podcast's amazing supporters.

1:34

Your support has been instrumental

1:34

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1:37

And I'm really grateful for

1:37

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1:41

If you're not already a supporter. I'd like to encourage you to consider

1:43

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2:08

Tiny url.com/s S C pod.

2:14

Now. Without further ado.

2:16

I'd like to introduce my

2:16

special guest today Hans.

2:20

Hans, welcome to the podcast.

2:22

Would you like to introduce yourself?

2:24

Thank you, Tom. Thank you for having me. And yeah, of course.

2:26

My name is Hans Thalbauer. I'm looking after the global

2:27

supply chain practice, at UiPath.

2:32

My background is supply chain. I was working in this industry

2:33

for, I would want to say 25 years

2:37

now, in different companies at

2:37

SAP, Google, and now at UiPath.

2:42

Okay. And for people who might be unaware Hans,

2:42

can you tell us a little bit about UiPath?

2:47

Who, who are UiPath? What is it you do there?

2:51

Yeah, UiPath

2:51

is all about AI powered

2:54

automation of business processes.

2:56

there's a platform, which we use in order

2:56

to apply it for business, processes.

3:01

It has a discovery layer, it has an

3:01

automation layer and an operation layer.

3:05

The discovery layer is all about

3:05

process mining the task mining

3:10

and communications mining. So understanding the business processes,

3:11

the automation layers, all about how to

3:15

automate the business processes with AI

3:15

technology, but also with software robots.

3:20

And then you have an operation layer which

3:20

makes it scalable for the enterprise.

3:25

Okay, and this Hans is

3:25

the Sustainable Supply Chain Podcast.

3:30

So what are you doing here?

3:35

Yeah. Yeah. So I'm thinking, you know, about

3:36

the business processes in supply

3:39

chain all my life actually. And so, I'm of course very, very

3:41

interested in the sustainability topic.

3:45

Sustainable supply chain is one

3:45

of the key drivers, I want to say.

3:48

And most important aspects we need,

3:48

we need to drive and think about

3:53

in the supply chain context, why? Because I believe there are three areas

3:55

which we can really, really impact.

3:59

There's of course, the carbon footprint

3:59

and how we can reduce carbon footprint.

4:03

And if you think about the supply

4:03

chain definition and the sustainability

4:07

definition of carbon, we have

4:07

the scope one, two, and three.

4:10

And my focus is really

4:10

on, on the scope three.

4:12

So on the indirect emissions,

4:12

everything related to supply

4:16

chain, upstream and downstream. So that's the first big area.

4:20

The second area is really circular economy. And I think there's not enough discussion

4:22

around the circular economy and how we can

4:26

really reduce the usage of material and

4:26

really get into a more circular economy.

4:32

And the third aspect is all about social

4:32

responsibility and I think a topic

4:36

super important and really involving

4:36

all the people around the world.

4:40

Supply chain is always global, so

4:40

we need to think globally and also

4:44

take social responsibility globally. So those are the three topics I'm

4:46

working on and thinking about and how

4:50

to apply also automation into this and

4:50

make it easier for companies to work on

4:56

these three topics and reduce actually

4:56

carbon footprint, have more awareness

5:00

on the social responsibility, and

5:00

increase the circular economy aspects.

5:05

Okay, so we'll, we'll take

5:05

the first one, the carbon footprint.

5:09

What are you seeing that's

5:09

happening in that space?

5:12

It's an interesting space, obviously,

5:12

because to my mind it is the

5:16

most important one, although the,

5:16

the, the circularity is linked

5:20

to carbon footprint as well. It is to my mind the most

5:22

important given the, the climate

5:25

emergency that's out there. But, and there's a lot of

5:27

regulation coming down in companies.

5:29

There's a lot of pressures in

5:29

companies from investors from,

5:33

banks from insurance companies, from

5:33

employees from all sides really.

5:39

How are companies responding?

5:43

Yeah, that's very,

5:43

very, very interesting question.

5:45

Right. So let's start first in my observation

5:45

working with companies around the

5:49

world and how important the topic

5:49

of sustainability and especially

5:53

carbon footprint is for companies. In Europe, definitely

5:55

this is high priority.

5:58

Right. So no doubt about this at all.

6:01

In North America, unfortunately, it's

6:01

still not the number one priority, right?

6:05

So you would still have, yes, we

6:05

want to be more sustainable and

6:08

yes we have our targets by 2025,

6:08

by 2030, we want to achieve.

6:13

Less carbon footprint and reduce

6:13

the, the carbon footprint.

6:17

Some companies, especially in the IT areas

6:17

are really having a strong focus there.

6:22

They want to run their data center

6:22

only with renewable energy and so on.

6:26

But in general, i t's still

6:26

not the number one priority.

6:30

And if you look at Asia, it's

6:30

somehow in between Europe and,

6:33

and North America, I want to say. And so we still around the world

6:35

are not yet at a level where I would

6:39

see the strong urgency, you know,

6:39

and focus on Yes, now we really

6:44

need to make a big difference. Despite all the weather and

6:46

climate issues, which are

6:49

very obvious to everyone, it's

6:49

still not at, at this level.

6:52

Right? So that's my first observation.

6:55

When it comes down to, to the carbon

6:55

footprint and especially the, the

6:59

reductions I think actually are many

6:59

companies who made a huge progress, right?

7:04

So really a lot of progress

7:04

in, in how they can actually

7:07

decrease carbon footprint. When I think about supply chain.

7:10

There's still a huge opportunity,

7:10

and I think the last couple

7:14

of years there was a a change.

7:18

And the change in really

7:18

restructuring and rethinking supply

7:21

chain becoming more regional. Right? So one of the key topics I think we

7:23

need to address is supply chain is

7:28

very global and it'll remain global. However, you can regionalize much more.

7:33

Source actually differently. And with that really have a different

7:34

network, a supply chain network.

7:38

One of the biggest issues

7:38

is the transportation area.

7:41

And in transportation, think about

7:41

all the trucks which are empty

7:46

on the street how many ships we

7:46

need and going around the world.

7:50

They're getting bigger and bigger

7:50

and through to geopolitical

7:53

issues, take longer routes.

7:55

And so we have all these issues.

7:57

And then we have also the aspects

7:57

on how we measure carbon footprint.

8:03

I think that's the third aspect, right? So first one, what is the awareness?

8:07

Second one is really what

8:07

companies are progressing.

8:10

And I think there is progress, however,

8:10

supply chains need to restructure.

8:13

And the third is really how

8:13

we measure carbon footprint.

8:16

And I think it's still too much

8:16

average data, which we are using

8:21

in order to measure actually the

8:21

real carbon footprint especially

8:25

when it comes to scope three data.

8:27

And how do we fix that?

8:31

Yeah, that's a big, big question, right? So on the, on the first one, I

8:33

think there are many, many programs

8:36

in place and you just need to look

8:36

at the World Economic Forum, and I

8:40

think they take it very seriously. And we think the different regulations

8:41

and in the different regions of the

8:47

world, I think there is progress, right?

8:49

It's slower than I think it should

8:49

be, but there is progress, right?

8:52

And I think the climate discussion is.

8:56

Not the question anymore that

8:56

there are climate changes.

8:58

I think this is resolved. At least I would.

9:01

I I would

9:01

hope so. yeah,

9:03

yeah, but so I, I

9:03

want to say on the first one, I'm an

9:07

optimist, so I think there is progress. The second aspect on, on the

9:09

restructuring, I think companies

9:14

started to understand and, and really

9:14

think about the value of having a

9:18

supply chain which is more efficient. And it starts with the

9:20

design of the product, right?

9:22

So many people forget that the supply

9:22

chain itself can only correct and, and

9:27

optimize about 20% of the efficiency

9:27

rate in the entire supply chain.

9:31

80% is being decided when you

9:31

design a product and when you

9:35

create the product, right? And when you start making

9:36

sourcing decisions.

9:40

So this is where you actually define how

9:40

your supply chain looks at the end, right?

9:43

If you, if I define and design a product

9:43

where all my components come from across

9:49

the world of course I, my supply chain,

9:49

my carbon footprint is really big.

9:53

And so in these decisions we have

9:53

all these aspects I mentioned at

9:57

the beginning, coming together. We have the circularity, which is coming

9:59

together right at the design phase.

10:03

If I design for circular economy,

10:03

I have a different end result.

10:07

The second one, the social responsibility.

10:10

How, which countries do I work? What kind of labor laws and regulations

10:11

are in place in order to ensure that

10:16

there is no child labor, there's

10:16

no slave labor, and so on, right?

10:20

So I can make the decision, right? at the design phase and

10:22

the carbon footprint, the

10:25

impact on, on carbon, right? So it can also make at the design phase.

10:28

So my biggest focus actually is

10:28

to really think how can we create

10:35

actually the awareness on the design

10:35

of products to make that differently.

10:39

And so this is, I think the,

10:39

the biggest area where we can

10:43

make the biggest difference. Then I make the decision where to source

10:45

and make it more local, make it actually

10:50

from a transportation perspective better.

10:52

And I can automate and optimize the whole

10:52

supply chain in a much, much easier way.

10:57

So these are some ideas, right? So where I think the, the

10:59

biggest aspect is really.

11:03

Thinking about the product design and

11:03

which components, which ingredients

11:07

I take for the, for the product. And from there I can really

11:09

make a big, big difference.

11:13

Okay. And what about, you mentioned the

11:13

measurement of carbon footprints and

11:17

how a lot of it is done using averages

11:17

or estimates as opposed to actual data.

11:23

How do we fix that?

11:25

Yeah, that's a big question as well. Right.

11:27

So I think there is there needs

11:27

to be some more regulation.

11:31

I absolutely believe there needs

11:31

to be more regulations, more

11:34

standards which need to be defined

11:34

by the countries and states.

11:38

And I mean, at the moment what you

11:38

see, the greenhouse gas protocol

11:42

which is good, which I like, and, but

11:42

it's kind of, open for every company

11:46

to, to submit their data, right?

11:49

And then averages are being calculated.

11:52

And there are some protocols and

11:52

standards, and I like every, everything

11:55

what they, what they actually do, right? So where they say, okay, if you have

11:57

the correct data, use the correct data.

12:01

If you don't, then go and, and use

12:01

averages, and they have methods how

12:07

to do the calculations and so on. So great work, I think, and,

12:09

and really a good guidance for

12:12

companies how to access this data. But wouldn't it be possible to

12:14

really go and, and calculate the

12:18

data for every product you produce?

12:20

I think it is. We can calculate the cost, right?

12:23

For every product. Why can't we calculate the carbon

12:24

footprint and capture it actually

12:28

while it's being produced and

12:28

while it's being transported, and

12:31

use it exactly as it is, right? So there you could see if, how

12:33

many returns you had on the

12:36

product how many times you, you did

12:36

actually ship it across the world.

12:40

What kind of components were coming from where? I think it is possible from

12:43

a technology perspective.

12:46

I don't see where, where we would've

12:46

an issue, but it's not being done.

12:51

And maybe there's some issues also

12:51

with, with IT and investment in IT

12:56

and sharing information, sharing data.

12:58

I mean, since ever when it's about

12:58

collaboration, there's a hesitance

13:02

between companies to share all

13:02

the information they have, right?

13:05

So I think this is a, a, a big topic.

13:08

This is actually an area where I think

13:08

the whole discussion around artificial

13:12

intelligence can make a huge difference. Why?

13:14

Because I think these topic topics

13:14

around communications mining, intelligent

13:19

document processing, where you can

13:19

submit unstructured information

13:24

and still the machines can read all

13:24

this unstructured information, and

13:29

transform it into structured data. Right?

13:31

So this is, I think, one method where

13:31

you just need to think, well, I can

13:36

easily submit my data via email.

13:38

That's fine, right? I don't need an EDI API and what

13:40

have you type of infrastructure.

13:45

I can just use email and type actually,

13:45

or put an attachment on there.

13:51

Then I use artificial intelligence,

13:51

which can read the emails, which can

13:55

read the attachments, categorize the

13:55

information, pull the information

14:00

out, and bring it to the right reports

14:00

or push it forward to, to planning

14:04

and optimization algorithms, right? So the technology is there to do

14:05

that and make it much more simple and

14:10

easy for companies to collaborate.

14:13

And so. Again, I'm optimistic that we get better,

14:14

but at the moment it's still very average.

14:18

And we need to work and leverage now

14:18

really this discussion around artificial

14:23

intelligence in supply chain and

14:23

how we can make a difference there.

14:27

Sure, and that leads

14:27

back to your earlier point then

14:30

about design and sourcing because as

14:30

you get that information from your

14:35

suppliers, it feeds back into who you're

14:35

actually using to be your suppliers.

14:40

When you start to see the carbon

14:40

footprint implications of using

14:43

supplier A over supplier B, for example.

14:46

Yeah, absolutely. Right? So think about in

14:47

consumer products, right?

14:49

So you define a new product, you want

14:49

to understand where the ingredients

14:53

are coming from and so on, right? And especially when it comes

14:55

to the ingredients the sourcing

14:58

of those it can come from or,

14:58

or variety of countries, right?

15:03

And you need to bring them together. And now you need to also not only think

15:04

about what is the carbon footprint of the

15:09

sourcing, but also what kind of energy is

15:09

needed in order to produce this component?

15:15

What kind of impact does it have if I get

15:15

these ingredients through deforestation

15:21

or all these kind of aspects? Right?

15:23

So think about it in a

15:23

bigger context, right?

15:26

So not just, yes I now have a carbon

15:26

footprint because I get product

15:31

shipped ingredient shipped from Brazil. Think about also what does, is

15:33

the impact in order to harvest

15:37

this, this ingredient, right? What is the impact there?

15:39

Is there enough water to to do that?

15:41

Can people actually do that? Is the social responsibility

15:43

there and on, right?

15:45

So this is, these are all the aspects

15:45

which we need to consider in, in this

15:49

context and think about in a holistic way.

15:53

And this holistic way means

15:53

I have thousands of data.

15:58

And I need a machine in order

15:58

to help me with that, right?

16:01

So therefore, again, my big hope

16:01

is that artificial intelligence can

16:06

make a big difference here, which

16:06

can go through these data lakes and

16:10

understand actually this combination

16:10

of data in a much better way.

16:14

Of course, you know, algorithms are

16:14

necessary in order to have the right

16:17

learning of the data because you can

16:17

teach the algorithms the wrong thing.

16:21

And so we need to really have

16:21

patterns in place which really allow

16:25

the algorithm to learn the right

16:25

things and then really giving the

16:28

right advice to the people, right?

16:30

And, and so from a technology

16:30

perspective, it's there, but I

16:35

think we need to combine these

16:35

thoughts in a more holistic thinking.

16:39

Yeah. Yeah. And a lot of this can be quite

16:39

counterintuitive as well.

16:44

I mean, you, you talked rightly about

16:44

regionalization, but in some instances,

16:50

just depending on the, the manufacturer,

16:50

sometimes bringing something from

16:55

China can be lower carbon footprint

16:55

than manufacturing something locally.

16:59

And you know, an example I heard of

16:59

that recently, not in the manufacturing

17:04

space was, but in the food space,

17:04

was people talk about, you know.

17:08

Bringing in avocados from South America? Well, yeah, the, the amount of the

17:10

carbon footprint of transportation in

17:15

avocados is high, but the rest of the

17:15

production of the avocados is quite

17:21

low in terms of its carbon footprint. If you're comparing that to say,

17:23

locally sourced beef, well, beef has a

17:28

very high carbon footprint, enormous.

17:30

So in fact, those avocados.

17:33

Brought in from South America

17:33

would have a much lower carbon

17:36

footprint than locally sourced beef. So, you know, a lot of these things

17:38

are very counterintuitive and it's

17:41

only by parsing all of that data to

17:41

your point, can you see which is, you

17:46

know, better or worse than the other. And it also depends on your

17:48

suppliers actually supplying that

17:53

data and it being verifiable data.

17:57

And in that scenario, you gotta be

17:57

very aware, I think that if you are

18:03

sourcing from suppliers who are not

18:03

supplying that data, you're putting

18:07

your organization at risk, right?

18:10

Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, perfect example you

18:11

just brought up because I, I think you

18:48

cannot, well, my belief is in, in, in the

18:48

freedom of trade and, and so on, right.

18:55

So it's not really restricting

18:55

everything not getting rid of all

19:00

the advantages we have made over

19:00

the last a hundred years, right?

19:04

So I think we should not go and think,

19:04

well, we need to go back a hundred

19:10

years and then everything is good. I don't believe that at all.

19:13

Right? So I think we need to

19:13

look into the future. How can we actually reduce and, and

19:15

use technology in order to reduce the

19:21

carbon footprint and so on, right? So I think this is the thought,

19:22

not being against something,

19:27

but being for something. And so that means I need to allow

19:28

actually the possibilities to, to,

19:33

have the products also produced

19:33

locally and globally, right.

19:37

I think one of the big issues is

19:37

of course, you know, we, we in,

19:41

in the society overall, right? So we, we need to make

19:42

it affordable, right?

19:45

So, the mass production and all

19:45

the outsourcing in the direction

19:48

of China, at the beginning it was

19:48

all because of cheap labor, right?

19:53

So it's not anymore, but it used

19:53

to be because of cheap labor.

19:56

So that's why all the advantages

19:56

were possible so that more the mass

20:02

actually of people, so more people

20:02

could get affordable products.

20:07

Yeah. Which they couldn't get before.

20:09

And so now telling everyone, well

20:09

only the rich can get actually this

20:14

still product, this, this product

20:14

still, and, and, and the poor don't,

20:18

would have a real social impact. Right.

20:21

And, and I think actually this

20:21

is not the way we should go.

20:24

Right. So we actually need to, have these aspects

20:24

in mind, what does it do to the society

20:29

and how can we actually use technology

20:29

in order to overcome some of these

20:34

issues and make it make it better, right?

20:37

So I think, yeah, like I said before,

20:37

it's, it's really about bringing

20:40

together all kinds of different thoughts

20:40

in, in this, in, in this environment.

20:45

Yeah. Yeah.

20:46

but it's true, these

20:46

examples, with beef and avocados.

20:51

Right. So it's, it's a very good one because

20:51

it immediately shows you where, where

20:56

actually the, the issues can be.

20:59

Right. So when you just look at the

20:59

data and you say, this is good

21:01

or bad, well, is it right?

21:03

Yeah, exactly, exactly. The other point, what, well

21:05

the second point you mentioned

21:07

was around circular economy. So talk to me a little bit about that.

21:11

It's, it's, it's an interesting

21:11

one because it feeds very much to

21:15

your point about, you know, design. You need to design things

21:16

for them to be circular.

21:20

And, and that feeds into

21:20

sourcing decisions as well.

21:23

But also it feeds into carbon

21:23

footprint decisions at, at end

21:27

of life or at, you know, when at

21:27

end of useful life, et cetera.

21:32

So talk to me a little bit about circular

21:32

economy and how you see that going.

21:37

So interesting enough,

21:37

I was reading quite a number of reports

21:41

about circular economy and where we are

21:41

with the circularity at the moment, right?

21:46

And interestingly enough, right?

21:48

So in, in, in 2020 there were was

21:48

about 9% circular economy, right?

21:54

So the circularity was 9%.

21:56

And it reduced the last a couple of years.

21:59

Now it's about 7%, 7.2%, and that means

21:59

we are still, yeah, creating products

22:06

and using products from new well from,

22:06

from new material and, and, and so

22:11

instead of reusing material, right?

22:13

So this is kind of the the biggest issue.

22:16

And why is that? It has to do also with the whole

22:17

recycling technology and the sorting

22:21

technology and, how to actually get

22:21

to the products or the raw materials

22:26

again, which you need in order to create

22:26

high quality products again, right?

22:29

So that's what it comes down to. I think when you look at the

22:31

plastic discussion, right?

22:33

And how you leverage plastic. It all comes down to can you recycle it.

22:38

There are technologies in place

22:38

where you can get real good source

22:43

material again, in order to reproduce.

22:45

But in general this is

22:45

not yet mass production.

22:49

This is very, very low percentage

22:49

actually, where you get actually

22:54

the, the plastic recycled. And so here we have a, a, a big issue.

22:58

This is only the plastic discussion we

22:58

can go on with many more discussions.

23:01

There are also some good aspects, right?

23:03

So where I think. In the context of electric

23:05

vehicles and the batteries, right?

23:09

There is this battery passport

23:09

kind of, concept, which I like a

23:13

lot, which is really doing what,

23:13

what we discussed before, right?

23:16

So how to create actually circular

23:16

economy and thinking that right

23:20

from a design perspective. And so I think actually there, it has been

23:21

proven with this case that it is possible

23:28

to get to a much better outcome than then

23:28

if you don't do that, right, if you just

23:32

produce the batteries and then you throw

23:32

them away, well, what a waste, right?

23:36

And it's not really good

23:36

for the environment.

23:38

So you need to have the,

23:38

the circularity in mind.

23:42

And if you do that more and more for

23:42

different product categories, right?

23:45

So think about aluminum and

23:45

steel and plastic and all

23:49

these kind of things, right? Then we getting in a, in a much

23:50

better en en environment and I

23:54

think there's not enough focus.

23:57

And there needs to be much more focus on,

23:57

on how to get to a more circular economy.

24:01

And I think the productivity aspect,

24:01

the cost need to be considered there.

24:06

I think think about all the retail

24:06

and e-commerce topics, right?

24:11

The, the return of products how many

24:11

people ship their products back, right.

24:17

And return it. And it's, it's considered to

24:18

be free, free of charge, right?

24:22

So I think that's another issue, right?

24:25

Because well, retailer

24:25

in, in the competition.

24:28

Well, let's offer this free of charge.

24:30

Because it's free, everyone is doing it.

24:33

Right. So I think actually there are aspects

24:33

where if we would really cover the,

24:38

or calculate the real cost on this,

24:38

and also the carbon footprint on

24:42

this, maybe there would be some

24:42

rethinking around this, right?

24:47

So there are certain areas where we

24:47

could really make a big difference in

24:50

the whole aspect of, of circular economy.

24:53

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I came across a, an

24:54

interesting example recently.

24:58

I remember when I was a kid, I

24:58

dunno if it's the same for yourself.

25:01

I'm a, a couple years older than you, but

25:01

I remember when I was a kid, you used to

25:05

get money back on bottles, glass bottles.

25:09

So when I was a kid, I used to go

25:09

around collecting glass bottles and

25:12

bringing them to shops and making

25:12

a bit of money for myself that way.

25:17

And that died out for a while.

25:19

And now all bottles are

25:19

plastic, unfortunately,

25:22

well, the vast majority are. But just last week or early this week.

25:27

In Ireland, they rolled out a new

25:27

deposit return scheme for tin cans

25:35

and aluminum cans and plastic bottles.

25:38

So now there's about 4,000 machines

25:38

in shops throughout the country.

25:45

And if you bring back a a can, or

25:45

a bottle, and you put it into these

25:51

machines, it spits out a voucher for you.

25:55

And the voucher is for, I think it's 15

25:55

cent or 25 cent, depending on the size or

26:00

the composition of the can or the bottle.

26:02

And you can then redeem that in that

26:02

shop against other purchases, or you

26:07

couldn't get cash for it directly.

26:10

So, I remember Ireland was the

26:10

first country in the world to

26:13

roll out a tax on plastic bags,

26:13

single use plastic bags in shops.

26:19

It started off, I think it

26:19

started off just being 5 cent,

26:22

five euro cent per plastic bag. But you saw a reduction in use of

26:24

plastic bags of around 90 to 95% straight

26:31

after the introduction of that levy. And now I gotta think with this,

26:33

because this, cash back means

26:38

there's an increase in the upfront

26:38

cost of these cans and bottles.

26:42

So you gotta think people are gonna

26:42

have a, a mindset change around this.

26:49

And you, you see in countries where

26:49

these kind of schemes are rolled out,

26:52

a big reduction in the, in the use

26:52

of plastic and, and more recycling.

26:57

This is, this is one

26:57

potential solution I see.

27:00

Is, is do, do you see that happening

27:00

in other countries much as well.

27:05

Oh, absolutely. Right. So I think all over Europe, right?

27:08

So you see that happening. There are also some initiatives

27:09

actually in the US right?

27:12

So I don't want to say

27:12

there's not no initiatives.

27:14

There's some initiatives here also

27:14

by the big bottling companies.

27:17

Right? So think about Coca-Cola and PepsiCo

27:17

and, and all of these, right?

27:21

So they all of them are really

27:21

want to make a difference and have

27:25

introduced different initiatives in

27:25

order to get the cans recycled, to

27:30

get the bottles recycled and so on.

27:32

Right? So, many companies are really

27:32

going in this direction and, and

27:35

thinking about this and, and not

27:35

just thinking, but introducing also

27:39

real methods in, in order to do that.

27:41

In, in Europe especially, right? I mean, you brought up Ireland.

27:44

I come, well, originally from Austria

27:44

and also there we have the same

27:49

kind of concepts It's right now

27:49

really on the, on the glass, right?

27:53

So that you return glass

27:53

bottles in, in the retail shops.

27:56

Now I think beginning next year, it's

27:56

also the plastic bottles are similar to

28:01

the example you described on in Ireland.

28:04

I think there are also, you know,

28:04

with use of technology instead of

28:08

having bottled water, you get more

28:08

and more of these systems where in

28:12

the water supply you can include it.

28:15

So you have your, your water directly

28:15

coming actually in instead of bottles.

28:19

You don't need to buy them anymore. You, you actually get it directly from,

28:21

from your, from your water supply.

28:24

And so it's very different

28:24

systems which are being placed.

28:28

And again, I am big believer in

28:28

technology makes a difference

28:32

and new ideas and innovation is,

28:32

is really helping here a lot.

28:36

So, but circular economy, I think

28:36

in, in general when it comes to the

28:40

scarcity of material we know that

28:40

many materials are really scarce.

28:44

Many of them are coming from China. There's a dependency there.

28:48

We use them in high tech products a lot.

28:50

We use them in aerospace

28:50

and defense a lot.

28:52

And I think also here there needs

28:52

to be rethinking in terms of which

28:57

materials to use and isn't in there

28:57

another material which we could use.

29:01

So, again, I think one of the sources

29:01

when I think about all the problems is

29:06

really in the design phase of a product

29:06

where all the difference can be made.

29:10

And how the carbon footprint ends

29:10

up, how the circularity is and also

29:16

the around the social responsibility. It all starts directly at the sourcing

29:18

decisions and the design decisions,

29:22

which are made very early in the process.

29:25

Yeah. And I'm glad you mentioned

29:25

the social responsibility.

29:27

It was your, your third

29:27

point when you started off.

29:30

That's always gonna be trickier than, I

29:30

mean, carbon footprinting, is is hard.

29:36

Measuring emissions is hard, but the

29:36

social responsibility one is harder even

29:42

again, I gotta think not just in terms of

29:42

measurements, but also in terms of what to

29:49

measure because it's, I think it's such a

29:49

new and immature area that the standards

29:56

to report to are still not quite there.

30:00

But is there, is this something

30:00

that technology can help us with?

30:04

I think so. Right. So how is it being done

30:05

at the moment, right?

30:08

At the moment you send somebody

30:08

and audit your supplier.

30:12

Right. It's really once a year you

30:13

audit your supplier and you

30:17

only see what you see, right? So if the supplier leads you to a plant

30:19

where everything is perfect and fine.

30:24

And let's say the mine is

30:24

perfect and fine, then well,

30:27

you know, the audit is good. And if they have another plant behind

30:29

that or another mine where children

30:34

are working or whatever aspects are

30:34

going on, you might not be aware of it.

30:39

Right? And you only know once you see a

30:39

report in the news and your supplier is

30:44

actually in the news and maybe there's

30:44

even an impact on your finished product

30:49

because now you get a bad reputation

30:49

in working with this type of supplier.

30:52

Right? So I think there are many examples

30:53

in, in, in the world, which, where,

30:57

where we know that happened already. I think there are technology

30:59

can really help and why and how.

31:02

It's, it's of course the audits, right? But at the same time, what you can do

31:04

is you can actually read local news.

31:10

So think about all the risk

31:10

management activities where you

31:15

can actually read local news. And in local news, you might find actually

31:16

some hints that in this plant there was

31:21

some issues, there were some issues.

31:24

There there was maybe a fire,

31:24

there was something, right?

31:27

So the more you get actually

31:27

information and warning signals

31:31

of, oh, that doesn't look right.

31:34

Right. So the more you actually

31:34

increase the risk level, right?

31:37

And then you have a very different

31:37

discussion with the audit.

31:40

So, there are ways where you take

31:40

information, which is there, and

31:45

many times it's locally news. You use artificial intelligence

31:47

again in order to read through

31:50

that and determine the risk level.

31:53

And then your, the combination of the

31:53

risk level and the audit will determine

31:58

then do I have a problem or not, right?

32:01

So it's one way of doing it a little

32:01

bit different and using more information

32:08

in order to make the decisions.

32:10

Yeah. Yeah, because that is as, as you

32:10

said already, that is the, the

32:14

one thing that AI is great at is

32:14

sifting through enormous amounts of

32:19

data that no one person could do.

32:21

But if you get access to enough

32:21

information and data sources and you

32:25

feed that into an ai, properly trained,

32:25

it should be able to spit out meaningful

32:31

information for you to make decisions.

32:34

Absolutely. The only problem is, how to know

32:35

who is your supplier, right?

32:39

So you might think, whatever, this

32:39

is a little bit stupid what I'm

32:42

saying, but it is true, right? So typically a company an OEM

32:43

knows the tier one supplier,

32:50

but not the tier two, right?

32:52

So they, they don't know who is

32:52

actually the supplier of the supplier.

32:57

And then think about

32:57

the raw material, right?

33:00

So how much, what was the percentage

33:00

of this raw material from this

33:04

one mine, which came then in this

33:04

product and then in this component,

33:09

and then in this product and on. So through the value chain,

33:11

who is your supplier?

33:14

Right? So this is, I think one of

33:15

the unresolved questions.

33:18

It's, it's really not resolved, right?

33:21

So you can go to any automotive

33:21

OEM and ask them who are

33:24

your tier three suppliers? Answer is, I don't know.

33:28

Right? And so here we need to make actually

33:28

a more effort how can we can improve

33:33

the transparency and how we actually

33:33

go through the supply chain and

33:38

really allow a more end-to-end view

33:38

on, on the supply chain itself.

33:42

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Cool, cool. We are coming towards the end of

33:45

the podcast now, Hans, is there

33:48

any question I did not ask that you

33:48

wish I did or any aspect of this we

33:53

haven't touched on that you think it's

33:53

important for people to think about?

33:57

No, I enjoyed the conversation. I think it's an important conversation.

34:01

I think the all three aspects we were

34:01

covering are really dear to my heart.

34:06

And I think we need to make

34:06

a difference leveraging the

34:09

technologies we have in place. Think about how we can leverage

34:11

artificial intelligence.

34:13

I'm a big believer that really

34:13

can help a lot in this context.

34:17

And using artificial intelligence

34:17

for the good here and making

34:21

the world more sustainable.

34:22

Wow. Great. I think this is the first podcast

34:24

I've recorded where we've talked

34:28

a lot about ai, where no one

34:28

has yet mentioned ChatGPT.

34:32

This is, this has gotta be a

34:32

record, and I've just gone and

34:36

ruined it by mentioning it. Okay. Okay.

34:42

Listen, Hans, if people would like to

34:42

know more about yourself or any of the

34:46

things we discussed in the podcast today,

34:46

where would you have me direct them?

34:51

They can look me up

34:51

at LinkedIn, right, Hans Thalbauer.

34:54

They can also send me emails at

34:54

UiPath [email protected].

35:01

Superb. Hans, that's been really interesting. Thanks a million for coming

35:03

on the podcast today.

35:05

Thank you.

35:06

Okay. Thank you all for tuning into this

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