0:11

Welcome back to the sustaining sport podcast

0:13

. In today's episode , we are joined

0:16

by Sharon Muzaki , a budding

0:18

environmental journalist and sports fan

0:20

in Kampala . There

0:22

is a web of interconnected issues facing

0:24

Ugandan sport at the moment , from

0:26

very limited funds to repeated

0:28

mismanagement , and from a brain drain

0:30

on talent to the undeniable effects of

0:32

climate change . The question is

0:34

how can Uganda improve its sport

0:37

and develop talent without further

0:39

contributing to the climate crisis , something

0:41

Sharon and I dive right into , of

0:43

course ? Such a discussion begs the subsequent

0:45

question is it even fair to expect

0:48

a nation who has contributed so little

0:50

to the climate crisis to include

0:52

such considerations into their sport and growth model

0:54

? Once again , we do our best

0:56

to explore this as far as we can . This

0:59

topic is particularly relevant and important

1:01

to me due to a special announcement

1:03

I am eager to make to you at the end of this episode

1:05

, so I encourage you to listen the whole way

1:07

through and without further

1:09

ado . Here is Sharon Muzaki

1:11

on the state of sport , particularly football

1:14

, and sustainability in Uganda

1:16

. Welcome

1:26

, sharon , to the sustaining sport podcast .

1:29

Thank you , thank you , thank you , thank you so much

1:31

, Benjamin .

1:33

You're so welcome . How did you get into this space

1:35

of sustainability , and particularly

1:38

sustainability and sport ?

1:40

When I did finish my university in 2019

1:43

, after I got done

1:45

with my bachelor's degree . I have

1:48

been someone who has been watching football

1:50

, to be specific , for some time

1:52

with my brothers when I was growing up , so

1:55

it has always been my interest at

1:57

some point . So after

1:59

university , I did join

2:01

the local sports here , where

2:04

I was doing some writing but

2:07

basically doing the social media work with

2:10

. The website is called Football 256

2:13

, which was covering the local sports

2:15

around . So as

2:17

time went by , I did

2:20

join the climate space

2:22

after doing my very first

2:24

environment training in 2021

2:28

. So that's how I

2:30

got to connect with climate and

2:32

sport , so I do understand both .

2:35

Very interesting . It sounds like you almost

2:37

took both sectors independently

2:39

and now you've brought them together , which is really exciting

2:41

.

2:42

Yes , I did take them independently At

2:44

first . I started with I actually did presentation

2:47

at some point on TV . That's

2:50

how interesting it was and I'm

2:52

really so much into football so

2:55

it's just so interesting that I'm a bit busy

2:57

that I try not to put so

2:59

much . You know , football is the whole thing

3:02

. It can really take you up because

3:04

of work here and there , but I

3:06

really do understand that sport

3:08

has been football , to be specific . With

3:11

others I do know I follow here and

3:13

there , but with football , especially

3:15

the European football and the UK

3:18

, Interesting .

3:20

So would you say you're more of a fan of European

3:22

football compared to , like , ugandan football ?

3:26

Yes , now that the Premier

3:28

League , the Liga , the Ligue

3:30

1 really does

3:33

take me up at some

3:35

point , but still

3:38

, I do follow the Ugandan sports . Once

3:42

in a while I do attend

3:44

the football events , especially

3:47

when we

3:49

have also our big clubs . Surprisingly , there

3:53

is the KSA for the

3:55

Kampala Cactus City , there

3:57

is Vitas Football Club , so

4:00

when those two are trying to go , when they're

4:02

having a match , it is always

4:04

interesting to come around and

4:06

watch .

4:08

Now that makes sense . So then tell me

4:10

what is the state of sustainability

4:12

in sport within Ugandan sport , because

4:15

you said you're still attending matches occasionally

4:17

. Do the teams have any understanding

4:19

of their impact ? The

4:21

fans think about it at all ?

4:25

I will strongly say no , not

4:27

at all . I cannot tell you

4:29

that if we did ask the president

4:32

of Puffa that is our football

4:34

body I do not think

4:37

that at some point he has even thought about

4:39

it . So I will strongly say

4:41

no . Maybe if

4:43

I do back up I can tell you no

4:45

, I do not think they really do understand

4:47

the whole topic .

4:50

And what do you think the best strategy would be to

4:52

try and raise

4:55

awareness for this kind of thing or encourage people to

4:57

think about their own impact and the impact of

4:59

their activities .

5:02

I think that if

5:04

you're an independent NGO and

5:07

try to partner with this , you know everything starts

5:09

with awareness trying

5:11

to come around and sell the idea and

5:14

really try to inform them of what

5:16

is going on in the country

5:18

, going in and around the world . So

5:20

I think that is when maybe they

5:22

would take interest , but I haven't seen any

5:25

event of a sort

5:27

or an idea . To be honest

5:30

, when you look at Uganda , basically

5:32

the Ugandan sport at most

5:35

is still true I

5:37

don't know the word I can use to describe

5:40

it we are polluting

5:42

the environment , or maybe

5:45

we did have a sports stadium

5:47

being constructed in wetlands or

5:50

training ground , something with a sort . But

5:53

Uganda , as Uganda , the country

5:55

you can imagine we are doing

5:57

coasting of our football clubs outside

5:59

Uganda , sorry

6:01

, football matches . So that shows you

6:03

the level we are at .

6:07

And what do you think the big issues are ? I mean , you

6:09

just mentioned a really interesting one around like the wetlands

6:12

and where sports infrastructure

6:14

is constructed . Do you think that's the biggest

6:16

one ? Is it maybe travel ? Because I

6:18

think definitely in European sports , the travel

6:20

is the most unsustainable element of

6:23

it .

6:24

It goes back to the leaders that we

6:27

do have . I think they are not

6:29

paying rotation to eat , but

6:32

I have seen

6:34

football matches in Uganda , here

6:36

them flooding and they are failing

6:38

to play and they have cancelled

6:40

so many matches because of the floods

6:42

in Pampala here . So

6:45

it shows you that the

6:47

effects are there and

6:49

they are really visible . But it goes back

6:51

to our leaders . They are not

6:53

just paying attention and

6:55

for other reasons , being political

6:58

, that all this maybe

7:00

will just be passing by . They are there

7:03

. They are not just paying attention to football pitches

7:05

though flooding , meaning

7:07

it is in a

7:10

space that wasn't meant

7:13

to be there .

7:13

Yes , that's an absolutely fascinating point that they are

7:16

choosing to design stadiums

7:18

or pitches or anything in places

7:20

that are not only not suitable but

7:22

then subsequently very vulnerable

7:25

to climate change consequences

7:28

.

7:29

Yes , because in the climate

7:31

change training that I've had and

7:33

on the waterfront , if

7:36

you ever reclaim a place

7:38

that is not meant to be used

7:40

for any other thing , at

7:42

some point the water will already come

7:44

back because that is the

7:47

place for its lodging . So

7:49

the effect will not

7:51

be visible there and then , but it's

7:54

a recurring thing .

7:57

Yes , no , I agree . I think that's a very good point

7:59

. Do you think it becomes an issue of budget

8:01

, as in if there was a bigger budget , they could

8:03

build better infrastructure , or do you think

8:05

it is just maybe short-sighted decision-making

8:08

or people trying to make

8:10

quick decisions ?

8:13

With what I know is for

8:15

far is an independent

8:18

body . I

8:20

will not say it's the budget

8:22

. Yes , the budget side

8:24

is only that the

8:27

government allocates the

8:29

less funds . They do

8:31

say the funds are allocated to them

8:33

. The budget is never enough , because

8:36

I can tell you in Uganda , here you

8:39

will have a football player earning

8:42

less than I don't know how much a

8:44

dollar is in terms

8:46

of fund money . But

8:49

okay , let me just take it

8:51

in general that if you did an interview

8:54

on one of the footballers having

8:56

playing from one of the leagues below

8:59

you know they are this

9:01

first team that will take months

9:03

without being paid

9:06

. So that is why I can

9:08

tell you that in African football so

9:10

many footballers do run away to go

9:12

for we call it pro football

9:14

, all professional football in

9:17

search for a better job or

9:19

a better pay outside

9:22

, even when they are not ready , because at

9:24

the end of the day they do end up

9:26

there and fail the

9:28

tests . Then again they

9:30

are forced to be back here so

9:33

they go prematurely . So I will

9:35

not say it's the budget thing , but the

9:37

government here hasn't given a lot

9:40

of attention

9:43

to the sports here . We have

9:45

our Uganda cranes failing

9:47

to go for matches because they

9:49

do not have funds . So a

9:51

month back we did have the chic

9:54

cranes that is , the football

9:56

team , going for

9:58

a sport in South Africa that was netball

10:00

, and they are being

10:02

stranded at the airport

10:04

. So it really shows you how Uganda

10:07

, the Ugandan government , because

10:09

if it is full fight it is supposed to

10:11

be in touch with the government . So

10:13

I do not know whether it's the embezzlement

10:16

of funds within the body and

10:18

things are not moving the way they are supposed

10:20

to be conducted . So

10:23

there is negligence of the government

10:25

and the people that we

10:27

do that work in this body

10:29

that takes the sport around Uganda

10:32

and not is doing the right work .

10:36

So many interesting points you raised there around

10:39

national bodies , embezzlement fascinating

10:42

and unfortunately it does not seem

10:44

to be uncommon across African

10:46

sports . I would like to

10:49

come back to , maybe , issues of corruption

10:51

in a bit , but let's start off with , as you

10:53

described , the players . What do you

10:55

make of most of these players ? I have

10:57

noticed this particularly in women's football

10:59

, that they all go to the , at least from

11:01

Southern Africa . They all go to the USA

11:03

if they can , because that is where the money is . Do

11:05

you think that is a problem in the long term

11:07

for the actual country itself

11:09

, that these players go overseas and of course

11:12

sometimes they come back , but sometimes they don't or

11:14

do you see it as just a good way to

11:16

improve the sport on

11:18

someone else's resources ? I guess ?

11:23

Yes , we have seen boxers

11:25

, those doing

11:27

the boxing sport . Not

11:30

only the boxing sport , but there are so

11:32

many of them . When they do get the

11:34

chance of going to the USA , going to

11:36

the UK , to those countries , that

11:38

they feel they would get a better pay

11:41

or a better life ahead

11:43

. You know , the next thing

11:45

you hear is a

11:47

report or in news this

11:50

player has disappeared

11:52

from this country . You know , they

11:55

leave the camps so early

11:57

and they get to just

11:59

seek refugee . Such things

12:02

have been going on . By now

12:04

so many have disappeared

12:06

from USA , from Germany

12:09

, from all those countries that they feel they can

12:11

get a better pay than Uganda here . So

12:14

there are so many and all that

12:16

goes back to poor management this side

12:18

and a lot

12:20

of embassies , of mental funds . You know

12:22

, because , as sport , the way we

12:24

see the players

12:27

in England and wherever

12:29

from countries like that , how they

12:31

are being paid , to be honest , for

12:33

a sports person should be doing better than

12:36

me , but you'll find a sports person here

12:38

and me and ordinary Sharon doing

12:40

some work . I'm better than the

12:43

pro footballer here . So that's

12:45

how it ends up .

12:48

Yes , and those players you mentioned

12:50

who've gone all over the seas , do they ever come back

12:53

, or do they send money back or anything ? Or

12:55

once they get a way out , they often

12:57

stay out .

13:00

Of course , most of them never look back

13:02

. The

13:04

only player I have seen I'm

13:07

sure you know him if you follow

13:09

the bit of Ugandan sport he's

13:11

called Denso Nyango . That

13:14

is the only footballer

13:16

that I've seen who is trying to come back and

13:20

he's trying to do it from his

13:22

village . He has a football academy

13:24

that is trying to come up , but to

13:26

be that is the only person who has tried

13:28

coming up and trying to say that oh

13:30

yes , maybe I've earned this

13:33

from this country . I can come back and develop

13:35

my country .

13:37

And that's frustrating because of course the

13:39

overseas country inevitably then benefits

13:42

from that talent , maybe down the line , and

13:44

I've even seen it happen across generations

13:47

, and the example I give he comes

13:49

up on this podcast a lot . But D Valkariegi

13:52

, his dad was Kenyan and

13:54

his dad moved from Kenya to Belgium to

13:56

play football , obviously settled there

13:58

, had a child in Belgium , and then D

14:00

Valkariegi now plays international

14:02

football for Belgium . So that's a big

14:04

shame . Yeah , for the talent pool , I

14:06

guess , but on the other hand , of course

14:08

these overseas countries do have the infrastructure

14:11

and the coaching et cetera . But

14:13

then it becomes a question of how do we improve

14:16

that situation in

14:18

Uganda ?

14:20

Exactly , exactly , yes , the

14:22

point we just mentioned . There are so

14:24

many African players in

14:26

Belgium there are so many

14:29

. Even in Colombia . Here we have the

14:31

Sanchez from Tottenham , hottispar

14:33

, there are so many . So , at

14:36

the end of the day , in Uganda , here I'm telling

14:38

you the fact that so many

14:40

players have failed the test , even

14:43

with a child , that you will see who

14:45

has the talent . But once

14:48

they leave the country to just go to

14:50

the nearest , they

14:53

would not take a full season there . And

14:57

even if they took a full season , not

15:00

so many will be playing . Because for

15:02

you to show that , yes , you have the talent and

15:04

they can be able to use you , you

15:06

should be playing on the first team to

15:08

have to prove that you know what . I know

15:10

this , but here we do not have the infrastructures

15:13

, the treatment that either you see

15:15

the players outside getting . It

15:17

isn't here . So it is upon

15:20

a player to take care of himself . I

15:23

have my brother who is a goalkeeper

15:25

. He was a goalkeeper from

15:27

one of those that we see that

15:30

there were big clubs around here . So

15:33

he got to get a knee injury that needed

15:35

an operation , but I can tell you it took

15:37

him one year of not getting

15:39

operated and now it

15:41

is a family his family that took

15:43

care of the surgery treatment . So

15:46

it shows you that if they are not doing

15:48

the basics , I do not think they will

15:51

even think of sustainability , climate

15:53

change , to be honest .

15:56

Yes , and I was going to come to that point

15:58

actually . Next , I mean , in

16:00

a world where it does seem like

16:02

there's a lot of corruption going on at the highest

16:04

levels , but also a lack of money

16:07

filtering down to the , as you say , even

16:09

the salary of players across many sports

16:11

, what hope do we have

16:13

to incorporate certain sustainability

16:16

protocols into the way we do sport ? I

16:18

can't imagine you're very optimistic .

16:21

I think that this all should come up

16:23

. How can it even be possible

16:26

or how can it happen ? We

16:28

, with the reporters . Now , like

16:30

me , if you start

16:33

tapping a few of those topics

16:35

, it creates a way and you know , most

16:38

people do not know the importance of generalists . You

16:41

know , you do go write a story , go for an

16:43

interview from someone and they do

16:45

ask you now you're writing this

16:47

. How is it going to help ? So

16:51

my answer to them already is you

16:53

know , every time I come to your office inquiring

16:56

of something or why this is

16:58

not moving on , well , of course that is

17:00

already a way and it is

17:02

already an indication of , yes

17:05

, maybe you're not doing something right or you need

17:07

to wake up and do this . So I

17:09

think it should start from us , the reporters

17:12

, which not so

17:14

many , by the way . Many are doing

17:16

the sports writing , but of course they

17:18

are doing the usual

17:20

reporting on football . They

17:22

aren't looking at this side , so they are not

17:24

so many . So I think it should

17:26

start with the reporters . Of course the

17:29

government should come in . We

17:31

have the bodies of climate

17:33

change and whatever , but you know they are focusing

17:35

on the other side , but it

17:37

should start with ordinary we

17:40

, the journalists and maybe

17:42

the NGOs , but not

17:44

so many . You know so many different

17:46

NGOs are looking at different

17:48

climate change bits , so I

17:51

think it is really hard . It will take

17:53

time .

17:54

No , and I think you've made a wonderful point there that journalists

17:57

are so often undervalued , because , of course , in

18:00

a state where there is likelihood

18:03

of some kind of corruption in our embezzlement , free

18:05

, independent press is literally the last

18:07

defense you have against that kind of thing

18:10

. So credit to yourself and credit

18:12

to your colleagues for trying to speak about

18:14

these issues , or else no one else will . So

18:17

let's continue to talk about the sustainability

18:19

and sport intersection , comparing

18:22

it to sort of European football . What I mean

18:24

by that is do you want Ugandan

18:26

football to look one day like

18:28

European football ? Do you want it to be that scale

18:31

and that magnitude , or

18:33

do you want to ? Just maybe ? Maybe

18:35

you just want to watch European football and you don't mind

18:37

about the Ugandan football as we alluded

18:39

to earlier . Or maybe is there a third option

18:42

? You know some kind of unique way

18:44

of Ugandan sport . What do you think ?

18:46

about that . Of course , I

18:48

would love to have my country , because the

18:50

pride of having your country participating

18:53

here at the biggest stages , it's

18:56

a heart-taking thing . I

18:58

have seen countries now like Senegal

19:01

, rwanda , here . It is not having

19:03

a lot of players in the

19:05

European section or the USA

19:08

, but just the innovations

19:10

that are coming up as a government body

19:12

having the best run of the jazzy

19:14

of ASNO , psg

19:17

, you know . So , having your country

19:19

up there , you know it creates a lot of opportunities

19:21

for your players . But I would love

19:24

my country at some point having the biggest

19:26

stages . It is so ashaming

19:28

I do not want to use the word language

19:30

, but that is it . It is what it is . You

19:33

know , of recent , we did host Algeria

19:36

. We did host it from Cameroon

19:38

. Can you imagine , instead of having

19:40

it to the nearest country , that

19:43

can be Kenya , because Kenya is better than us

19:45

. Or have it in

19:47

Tanzania ? You know they are now having

19:49

a better infrastructure , they are having

19:51

better stadiums . And now

19:53

Rwanda I don't know whether you have been to Rwanda

19:56

they are coming up with the biggest

19:58

. One of the biggest stadiums will be in

20:00

Africa here . So if you cannot

20:02

take the sport near where

20:05

we can travel , we are the fund and

20:07

you are putting it outside East

20:09

Africa , you know . So I would love

20:11

to see my country at some point

20:13

having those better infrastructures

20:15

. And the only infrastructure we have

20:17

here in Uganda is called Namole

20:20

Mandela National Stadium , and

20:24

what I hear and what I read in news

20:26

, it was given to an independent

20:29

person so that it means

20:31

an individual can do anything and

20:34

anything . If it means paying to

20:37

access the stadium , it means it will be

20:39

privatized . If it means

20:41

there is a match of this kind and

20:43

now let me say we are hosting

20:45

Nigeria here it means we shall

20:48

be charged a fee that an ordinary person

20:50

would not afford to get a watch . You know

20:52

. So those are the challenges

20:54

that will come in with privatizing things

20:56

. So , yes , I would

20:58

love to see my country at some point somewhere

21:00

there . You know , sometimes I do make funny

21:03

posts on Facebook

21:05

and the feedback

21:07

from the public is really so bad

21:09

. I can be honest . If

21:11

you can imagine that even the

21:13

public is so happy to hear that Uganda

21:15

has lost a match , benjamin

21:18

, that's how bad it is , because

21:20

it is frustrating . The whole process has

21:22

been frustrating . People are

21:24

not accessing the stadiums , they are not accessing

21:26

the events . You are hosting them

21:28

out of the country . You are spending

21:30

a lot of money whereby we are not

21:32

seeing improvements . We are not seeing anything

21:35

. Coming back to our coach

21:37

, who is now our coach . He is my friend

21:39

, I can tell you he is my friend , but

21:42

we have had so many of the coaches

21:45

and now this coach , when he

21:47

left , before they brought him back , he

21:49

was complaining that he took the entire

21:51

time . He was not being paid . So

21:53

even the body itself has failed

21:55

to pay the coaches . The cranes

21:57

who have been in South Africa was complaining

21:59

. You know the press that's spinning

22:01

him down how he is not doing a good job

22:04

. Maybe the girls are not performing

22:06

well in South Africa , but this is a man

22:08

who is selling you . A coach is selling

22:10

you , taking months down the road . I

22:12

have never been paid , so

22:14

what do you expect from such a mentality

22:17

? The last time we were in Africa

22:19

because now these are two years of us not being

22:21

there the last time we were there , that was 2019

22:25

. Yes , I remember

22:27

covering it online and

22:30

there is a certain amount that they

22:32

promised the players that , if they do well

22:34

, because that was one of the

22:36

in a long time that we left the group stages

22:39

and went to the quarters and

22:41

I can tell you that they promised them

22:44

some amount of money , that

22:46

when you do well , you know those promises give the

22:48

players the love and

22:50

you know for them to play with all the energy

22:52

. And at some point I don't

22:54

know really what happened they didn't pay these

22:57

players and they failed to turn

22:59

up for the training . But they have a very

23:01

important match and Senegal

23:03

beat us . It was only money who beat us

23:05

that very one goal and of course

23:07

we're knocked out . So it all

23:09

goes back . There is a lot in Uganda . We

23:12

say there is a lot of Kavyo , kavyo

23:14

is a lot

23:16

, and I go there and you know yes

23:19

, no , and you phrase it very well .

23:22

So now you've talked a lot about the international game

23:24

there and I think you've made such good points

23:26

. Do you think the same same argument applies

23:28

to the club level , like would you rather

23:30

see Ugandan players go play

23:32

club football overseas and then come back

23:34

and do very well for the Ugandan national team

23:37

, or would you like to see a strong club

23:39

league in Uganda as well ?

23:43

Yes , you just think I'm very something

23:45

that I really know I have

23:48

. At my understanding , on

23:50

what I've seen , players

23:53

that are actually here do

23:55

perform better than the players that

23:57

go outside , that go overseas

23:59

. Why the

24:01

players that go overseas do not have

24:03

playing time . That

24:05

is number one , and coaches have

24:07

kept in these players . We have

24:09

one player . He's

24:12

now in Motherwell

24:14

and so

24:17

this is a player

24:19

who has never been here . So

24:21

this is a player who has grown up from the UK

24:23

but of course he has the Ugandan name

24:26

, he has the Ugandan descent and

24:28

now he's been prioritized . A

24:31

hand of players that are here . You

24:33

know we do not look at our own firsts

24:35

before we look overseas . Yet

24:37

players here that are here come

24:40

, grown here , do better when some are playing

24:42

, especially when

24:44

we have tough competitions . So

24:48

I feel players here should be given

24:50

the opportunity . And

24:52

now there is this . Actually

24:54

that very player , mugavi . Okay

24:57

, there was a campaign of tourism

24:59

here and he's on billboard . Yet

25:02

a player here doing well at KCCA

25:05

is not having that chance . So

25:07

players also do not give in their all

25:09

. Of course they are not . You know

25:11

they are not prioritized . You get my

25:13

point . They are not prioritized . And

25:15

others who are outside the country are

25:17

being prioritized . They

25:20

keep bringing us players that we have never

25:22

had , though , instead of giving

25:24

a chance to the children we have . So

25:26

, at the end of the day , they are also like you know

25:28

what we are moving out we are going overseas

25:31

to maybe we will get chance to be

25:33

. You know , for us , we have this in

25:35

our mind that if a player left Uganda

25:37

and went outside , maybe he is being

25:39

exposed to better equipment , this

25:42

better experience , but we have never

25:44

seen that difference . I can tell

25:46

you . I have not seen that difference on

25:49

the level . We keep

25:51

losing , keep losing . So

25:54

that is the whole point .

25:57

Yeah , I think they have done something similar

26:00

in South Africa , but they have actually changed in recent

26:02

years . It was a long time there were South African players

26:04

playing in the English 4th Division

26:06

and then they would come play for the South African national

26:08

team . I am thinking of , like Dean Furman and those

26:10

kind of guys . But then what they have realized

26:12

was that , particularly in , mamalodi , sundowns was so

26:15

good at South African club

26:17

and then when they started playing overseas

26:19

, they were always playing in the African

26:21

Champions League . And then even I saw this

26:23

year it was quite amazing and obviously they had to raise

26:26

money for this . Somehow Mamalodi Sundowns

26:28

were touring the Netherlands

26:30

in pre-season and I was like what

26:32

is that ? A South African club , an African

26:35

football club , pre-season touring

26:37

overseas against the Netherlands or

26:39

Dutch clubs . That was very interesting

26:41

and maybe a sign of things to

26:43

come for African sport . I

26:46

think this is what Mamalodi Sundowns

26:48

have realized that the better way to do

26:50

it is actually to maybe bring in some

26:53

of that expertise internally , no

26:55

overseas , and bring that expertise to , in

26:58

that case , south Africa . I remember

27:00

their argument for going overseas to the Netherlands

27:03

this year was that there

27:05

are different styles of football played over there

27:07

. That might be another reason behind

27:09

your point that those overseas

27:11

players play . Perhaps worse is

27:14

that there is a certain style of football they are

27:16

playing in Uganda . If this Ugandan player

27:18

has been playing in Austrian 2nd Division

27:20

and not getting a lot of game time , that's

27:23

not going to translate against , for

27:25

example , saudi Ammanee or something when

27:28

you play Senegal . So very interesting .

27:31

I did meet a gentleman from Sengo

27:34

and he can tell you what

27:36

Sadio Manu is doing in his country , why

27:38

these are a few of the players that really

27:41

did allow to come back home and

27:43

say , no , let's play for our country

27:45

, let's do this , so it

27:48

gives some pride at some point and he's really

27:50

doing well . I can tell you he's doing

27:52

well , which is not so

27:54

common , and I think because they

27:56

are in countries that do access

27:59

those opportunities and

28:01

they have really worked out with them .

28:05

Yeah , but I think there's

28:07

a different level of player there . They

28:09

always talk about Drogba giving back to Kotevoa

28:12

and all of this , but the Manay and Drogba

28:14

were so good , they were at that level that

28:16

they could afford to , whereas I think a lot of the players

28:18

we've been talking about today they

28:20

make some money overseas , but they don't make a huge

28:23

amount of money overseas , so they

28:25

can't give back as much , or at least they don't

28:27

feel like they can .

28:29

Exactly so . If a player the

28:32

farthest point that our player

28:34

maybe has ever gone from Uganda

28:36

, that should be Turkey . Yes

28:39

, there are some people who have tried going to

28:41

, but they have really not made

28:43

it first . So they end up coming back

28:45

home and with nothing . So

28:48

most of them now do end up in the

28:51

same bar in Tanzania

28:54

, so there's

28:56

nothing much because of the sport

28:58

that was for developing in Uganda

29:00

. So if the

29:02

best are not being made , I don't

29:04

think that's a sign of football

29:07

. The whole side of it

29:09

will even be thought about .

29:12

But that raises me . I think we've got

29:14

two final points to touch on here . The

29:16

first one is what do you think about

29:18

that growth of the game

29:20

? Because , of course , as much as it's

29:22

amazing to look at the Premier League and to

29:25

look at the European Leagues and say , wow , those

29:27

are so spectacular and there's so much

29:29

infrastructure and there's so much resources and

29:31

talent , they are also very unsustainable

29:34

. The carbon emissions of those at

29:36

that level of sport is exceptionally high . So

29:40

do you foresee a way that maybe Ugandan

29:42

football could grow , but obviously

29:44

not in the same way ? Because if every country

29:47

in the world had a Premier

29:49

League-sized sports league , sport

29:51

would be even more unsustainable than it already is

29:53

now .

29:55

No , that can really just

29:58

answer no . Why ? Yes

30:01

, I would love it to grow , but if

30:03

it is growing to that level , of

30:05

course it should put measures . Uganda

30:08

is one of the countries you know , we are in the

30:10

tropics , but at the rates

30:12

of climate change , how

30:15

it has affected this country , I can

30:17

give you scenarios . I'm working on

30:19

a story about the flood from the

30:21

Nile , from the Nile , Benzin

30:24

, and I can tell you things are

30:26

occurring that we had never seen

30:28

. So I would love the

30:31

sport to grow , but with

30:33

measures , with being aware

30:35

of what is really taking place .

30:39

OK , so let's just quickly knock off this

30:41

last question . We've talked a lot today

30:43

about maybe growing Ugandan

30:46

sport , but obviously not with such high

30:48

emissions , and obviously there's a very big argument

30:50

that we need to completely reduce

30:53

the amount of impact , the environmental

30:55

impact , that European and American sport has

30:57

. Do you think all of this is fair

30:59

when it comes to Africa ? Because you

31:02

know , historically Africa is responsible

31:04

for so little amount of global emissions

31:06

, yet it is on the

31:08

receiving end of all the things you've already discussed

31:10

today flooding , etc . Do you think this is

31:12

fair ? Do you think that Uganda should even

31:14

have to reduce its environmental impact ? What

31:17

do you make of that ?

31:20

Exactly , just like you said

31:23

, the African countries . We are

31:25

not so much of a polluter . Maybe

31:27

the wrong things we are doing are just

31:29

a few . We are doing the

31:32

wasteland reclamation , just

31:35

the poor disposal of the

31:37

pollution . But

31:41

I think it's not fair . This

31:43

whole thing really stems

31:46

from where you are , because

31:49

people do have the biggest

31:51

technologies . So all

31:54

these environments like football

31:56

, you have the biggest industries

31:59

, not so much in Africa , in

32:02

Uganda to be specific . I

32:04

think it's not fair , but still it

32:06

does not take us away from

32:08

being responsible or

32:10

even the little that we are doing that is bringing

32:13

all these issues . So it

32:15

is the whole balance thing

32:17

. As the whole

32:20

side of the European side doing its own

32:22

thing , we should also look at the side

32:24

of looking at , of taking

32:26

care of ourselves . I think that's how I can

32:28

phrase it .

32:31

Yes , I think that's very well phrased , because

32:33

I personally feel very guilty

32:37

even discussing these kinds of

32:39

things with a lot of institutions

32:42

, organizations and representatives across sub-Saharan

32:44

Africa , because I know that they are responsible

32:47

for so little in terms of the actual global

32:49

emissions .

32:51

Exactly . So just something

32:53

small . When I was doing my gym

32:55

session I was talking to

32:58

that gentleman . He

33:00

works with an energy I'm

33:02

not sure of the name , but the organization

33:05

is energy-based . So I was

33:07

asking him what his opinion

33:09

is , because I know I'll have in this review

33:12

about the African sport

33:14

and he's asking me you know , I do

33:16

not think we do have that big

33:18

of sports here doing the pollution

33:21

, having a lot of carbon emissions

33:23

. Actually his argument was

33:26

no , we are on the receiving

33:28

end , just like you stated it , but

33:31

of course it doesn't take a way that we are not having

33:33

the effect of climate here . Of

33:36

recent in Bali , bali District

33:38

, you know it's just

33:40

one night of it raining constantly

33:43

and it swept the whole town and

33:45

people died . You know how it

33:47

starts raining from 3 pm and

33:49

in the morning you'll hear that this

33:51

kind of nabah has died and really people passed

33:54

on in running waters , especially

33:56

these ones who are coming from nightclubs . So

33:59

we cannot take away from the floods

34:01

If we train in Kampala . Here there

34:04

are some roads . You know this is a place that

34:06

we have constructed so many buildings

34:08

in places that we are not meant to be built

34:10

in , you know , because of the urbanization and

34:12

all that stuff . So we cannot

34:15

do that with a carbon emission . And

34:17

of course , it does not take away

34:19

that we are not feeling the impact . There

34:22

are so many things going

34:24

around climate change , the water rising levels

34:26

on the Lake Victoria , the River Nile

34:29

, you know , recent , these bridges

34:31

where all the waters

34:33

were rose to the extent

34:35

that so many people were drowning , so there

34:37

is all that . So it can't take away that we

34:40

are not having the effects . They are there

34:42

. But it is upon us doing

34:44

the right thing , you know

34:46

, when they say , start away from the river

34:48

banks 200 meters , so

34:50

why not do that ? But so many you

34:52

know . Let me say we are African

34:55

. Because I'm an African , I

34:57

was doing an interview the other day because I'm doing

34:59

this story of floods . I will share the link and see

35:01

what . You see what I've written . And

35:04

the head , the head of the head

35:07

, people , the local government , are telling this

35:09

. People have gone back , you know , and when

35:11

something hits again , you know

35:13

that we are again crying . So at

35:15

the end of the day , even with ordinary people

35:17

, do not help ourselves . We

35:20

should do the right thing , and not

35:22

so many people are aware of it .

35:26

Yeah , that's interesting , and I wonder if

35:28

what you're describing there is actually

35:30

going to start happening in places like the

35:32

UK or other parts of Europe

35:34

and America where the impacts

35:36

are becoming visible . For so long

35:38

, climate change has been something that's happening

35:41

somewhere else . But you know , there's always talk

35:43

at the moment about how many Premier League

35:45

stadiums , for example , will be underwater

35:47

in 20 to 50 years

35:49

because of rising sea levels , and

35:51

as those things start to happen , people

35:53

get more aware and maybe get activated

35:56

to make changes . The problem , of course , is that it

35:58

is usually too late .

36:00

I have not seen it in Europe , but I've seen

36:03

football at the end of the day complaining

36:05

, saying even in the UK , here they

36:07

are complaining that the pitch was different

36:09

, it was raining and so

36:12

the effects are visible the whole world

36:14

. I can tell you there is no

36:16

country that isn't feeling it . I

36:18

was talking to some friend with

36:20

Coration and she

36:22

was sending me pictures of a storm that I

36:24

didn't did you hear of it . There

36:26

is a storm that swept off recent and so many people

36:29

lost their lives . You not raise

36:31

lives there , just breaking up and

36:33

hitting houses . So

36:35

it is everywhere . So it is upon

36:37

us , as countries in different

36:40

capacities , to do the right thing .

36:43

Yes , and I think that

36:45

goes back to what I asked you before is that

36:47

, although Uganda has a very low

36:49

impact on the global emissions , it

36:52

still has some agency , it still has some control

36:55

over itself . So any action that

36:57

it does take to reduce its impact

36:59

on the environment is exceptionally admirable

37:01

.

37:04

So , at the end of the day , asking the right

37:06

thing whereby I've just stated that

37:08

the government and the sports

37:10

board here has no clue

37:13

. I have noted if

37:15

there was an event of awareness

37:17

about sustainability in sports

37:19

, I would have known and I would have

37:22

told you that at the moment

37:24

it's unknown .

37:27

Well , that's a great note to end on . And , of course , sharon

37:29

, if something like that does happen , keep us informed

37:32

and we'll be waiting for your feedback

37:34

with Bated Breath . But yeah , thank you

37:36

so much for your time today and thank you for coming on the show

37:38

. I really appreciate your insight . Thank

37:41

you , that

37:49

was Sharon Muzaki . I'm so grateful

37:51

for her time and how forthcoming she

37:53

was on some fairly heavy topics Always

37:55

a good sign and a journalist . This

37:58

episode marks the end of this chunk of

38:00

bimonthly episodes , as

38:02

I'm taking a slightly different direction in

38:04

my career . I am very pleased

38:07

to be starting my PhD at

38:09

Loughborough University , on their London campus , in

38:12

the intersectional field of sustainability

38:14

and sport , with a focus on Sub-Saharan

38:17

Africa . While I enjoy talking

38:19

on this intersection and sharing it with you , like

38:22

all things , podcasting has its limits . I'm

38:25

hopeful that at least attempting to fill some of the gaps

38:27

in the research can contribute even more

38:29

to moving the space forward . I'm

38:32

not shutting down this show , but I cannot hope

38:34

to post with any degree of regularity as

38:36

I dive into academia . I

38:38

think I will let the topics pick themselves in future

38:40

based on who and what I come across , but

38:43

I'm very grateful for what this show has done for me so

38:45

far , both directly and indirectly

38:47

, leading to two job roles , countless

38:50

amazing people and the work I'm about to

38:52

start now . Thank you for supporting

38:54

this show while I've been on this journey and

38:56

I shall report back as it continues . So

38:59

see you in the next episode .