Tim Sweet is joined by Julie Freedman-Smith once more to continue the conversation they started in the last episode. They delve deeper into how we can break ourselves out of inaction or malaise to start changing our lives. Every journey starts with a step, so what will push us into action? What will our first step be?

Julie speaks from the perspective of families, of parents acknowledging their childrens’ feelings and finding ways to set examples within their own lives. Tim speaks from the perspective of businesses and workplace teams, of taking action towards goals and not being so blindly adherent to a single vision that we can’t see what’s happening around us. 

Tim Sweet and guest Julie Freedman-Smith explore what it means to create safety where people can imagine a different identity and take the first steps to get there. They share the questions ‘Where do I want to go?’ and ‘What if I could?’ as valuable stepping-off points towards making change. How do we shake ourselves out of malaise? Tim and Julie talk about what motivates us, how to give ourselves space to examine our internal needs, and the practical steps that can shake us up to start making the changes we desire. Both are coaches from different perspectives and offer insightful examination of the human condition and ways to contact them to continue the conversation started here.

About Julie Freedman-Smith

Julie Freedman-Smith is the creator/founder of Parent–Break, an online community providing time and space for parents to connect with themselves and each other, to offer guidance, and to acknowledge the parenting challenges while celebrating the successes. 

Author, Blogger, Podcast Host and Parenting Expert, Julie Freedman Smith has been guiding parents across North America for 20+ years. Julie also enjoys practising and teaching Tai Chi and working as a professional choral singer and clinician.

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Contact Tim Sweet | Team Work Excellence:

• Website
• LinkedIn: Tim Sweet
• Instagram
• Linkedin: Team Work Excellence

Contact Julie Freedman-Smith | Author, Blogger, Podcast Host and Parenting Expert:

• Website - Parent-Break
• Linkedin
• Instagram
• Linktr.ee

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Transcript

Julie Freedman-Smith: 

We can all only see what we can see. And so sometimes it does take somebody else to come in and say yes and, like you were saying, like the person that's belaying, or whatever, the climber, can still say, okay, yeah, there's something over there that's just out of your view that you can't see. And I think sometimes that can be helpful too.

Welcome to the Sweet On Leadership podcast, where we explore leadership success through conversations with remarkable experts. Curated by Tim Sweet, these guests share profound knowledge fueling your growth. Get ready to unlock true impact with your host, Tim Sweet.

Tim Sweet: 

I'd like to ask you some questions. Do you consider yourself the kind of person that gets things done? Are you able to take a vision and transform that into action? Are you able to align others towards that vision and get them moving to create something truly remarkable? If any of these describe you, then you, my friend, are a leader. And this show is all about and all for you. Thanks for joining us and welcome to the Sweet On Leadership Podcast, Episode Ten.

Tim Sweet: 

Welcome back, Julie. We're going to carry on a conversation that we started earlier and we're going to have a little more focus on this one because I was really taking us down rabbit holes.

Julie Freedman-Smith

That's never happened before. 

Tim Sweet

Our last conversation really focused, well focused or approached. What is this? A general malaise that we all know about? I mean, I don't think it's a mystery. But then there's this kind of bubble of action coming? Or are people getting impatient? So I think where we can focus this time is, let's talk again about how can people take this feeling? And, you know, really start to build some energy up at so hopefully they can pop and they can break orbit a little bit? 

Julie Freedman-Smith

Sure. Or even just start, right? Because every journey begins with a single step. Right? We need to start before we can burst through the atmosphere.

Tim Sweet

Yeah, so let's find a foothold. And we're going to as always, we're going to approach this from two perspectives. One is that you are really the expert in the room when it comes to home life parenting. And and that is the sphere that you live in. Right? It's how do we build positive experiences in the home? And I'm going to come at it from what am I seeing within the context of the businesses that I work for? Which isn't everybody across the globe? 

Julie Freedman-Smith

Well, actually, you are working across the globe. 

Tim Sweet

Yeah, for sure. But it's, it tends to be you know, it's it's not the experience of everybody. So I mean, I'm pretty, we are talking from a Western Canadian context, we're talking from, you know, by and large, a first world context. And it's, and I think we made the point last time, it's important to remember that not everything we're saying is accessible to the experience of everybody.

Julie Freedman-Smith

Right? And we could have that argument again, because first world context looks different depending on who you are living in this first world. However, let's go forward. So how are you helping people to get started to take that first step forward?

Tim Sweet

Well, typically, when, when we, when somebody approaches me, or they're part of a team that's approaching me, they already know that there is some incremental value to be had, by finding momentum in some area that they're working, there's something to improve, there's something to, there's some benefit to get, they're not going to invest in my help, unless there's a payoff in some way, shape or form. It doesn't always have to be direct revenue line, but it's going to be employee experience, it's going to be something that's a cultural improvement, you know, anything along these lines, customer experience, they're entering with a reason to get going. That reason may not always be super clear. And it may not be well understood. And it will also vary, you know, Is it understood by the team? Or is it understood by the individual? So, for myself, I always work in two main gears. And the first is that we need to understand, and I think this is more complex than this, but in the simplest possible way. And this is not groundbreaking. It's, you know, where do you want to go? And where are you today? And what's the gap in between? And so recognizing that as a team is really important. The next thing that I really work on is making sure that everyone on the team can buy into that and understand why they want to go there. And perhaps, or if it's just the individual working, then I skip to step two, and that is where do I want to go? Why does it matter? And where am I today, get crystal clear. And then how do I close the gap? And so it's not rocket surgery. It's about getting pretty clear. Where we're going and really honest about where we're at. And use whatever data, whatever tools we need to clarify, define that position. So that we're not fooling ourselves. That's the very, very first step in my process is to get pretty honest and chunky on where at. That would be it. I don't know. Can I go deeper for you?

Julie Freedman-Smith

Yeah. So then are there tools to start on that process to get through the gap?

Tim Sweet

Oh, yeah, absolutely. The number one tool in my arsenal is the conversation. It's making sure that I'm understanding what people are trying to achieve. And that I'm understanding it from their perspective, not from some abstract norm that all businesses should aspire to, not some paint by number thing, but why do they want to get there? What does that actually mean? And as we talked about the last time, what's the feeling that they're going to achieve when they get there? So, you know, can they articulate that, and then can they attach to it personally, so that it matters. They can't unsee the fact that they're not where they want to be. And then it creates this pull, this vacuum, where, of course, that's where I want to be. And now I'm disrupted and uncomfortable with where I am today. And it creates a longing and a reason to take a step forward. And that step forward can include being scared, trying some things that aren't, aren't really comfortable, challenging the way we think. But getting them into that position of longing, I guess is, am I being drawn towards something? Is that inspiring? Is that where I want to be? And have I put that person between an immovable object realization of where they are, and an irresistible force of a future that they want to be moving into? And anyway, that's, that's my first move. It may not sound fancy, but that's, that's it.

Julie Freedman-Smith

Yeah, that sounds just so interesting to me. And I, I love that it's this clarity and honesty, because oftentimes, when we're actually articulating it, instead of just making it the shoulds, and woulds of the greater being…

Tim Sweet

Which are dangerous, for sure. 

Julie Freedman-Smith

Then we can say something out loud, and then sit with it and say, well, actually, is that where I want to go? Like, I thought, that's where I wanted to go. But does that feel right? Like, is that where I want to go? Or is it slightly different than that, but until you actually have the courage to make those words come out of your mouth, instead of we're kind of going here, then you don't have the clarity of, of possibility and where you want it to go? That's really intriguing to me.

Tim Sweet

Yeah. And holy moly, when you talk about the shoulds and the woulds. I mean, those are landmines. Because if you if you're going there for the wrong reasons, or you're trying to paint by number, you're putting a standard out for yourself that isn't real, authentic, or, you know, something that you actually want that you that at your core you feel is important. You're going to be fighting to tack towards that target. And there's always going to be crosswinds and headwinds, and you will be in conflict with that future. It hardly is a path of least resistance at that point. It is it'll be a fight.

Julie Freedman-Smith

Yeah, because you're fighting within yourself.

Tim Sweet

Yeah. I mean, we see this a lot in organizations where people are toeing the party line, they think something is very, very important. But there's a limit to where they're willing to go. As soon as it's challenged by either some other priority, or perhaps they have a chance to pick up and go, it's no longer important, I can just cash in my chips and that's, that's that. And they were filling a role, which is really important. But there perhaps wasn't a sense of true attachment to that goal, where they could feel fulfilled with the promise of getting it. Now look, you don't want to stay in a toxic work environment or something just to see some objective fulfilled. But there, you know, in my mind, if you're really motivated to complete something, it shouldn't just matter to the organization, but you should find why it matters to you. And that it's like, you know what, if I can see this through it, actually, this is where we're using identity and belief in our favor. It's like, this really helps me achieve who I want to be. Or it really it becomes a testament to what… I'm not just talking the talk, I'm walking the walk, like this is makes me feel like I've achieved something at the end of the day. But again, shoulds and self manipulation, and these things are risks. Because it's kind of like well, I should do that because that's the way it's always been done or I should do that because that looks like what Mr. Brown on the street is doing, and you know what I mean? Like there can be a lot of toxicity in that. So setting those goals and setting them to something that is is really healthy is important. Quality of the goal is as important as having a clear one. You burn a lot of teams out chasing something that's not terribly helpful or noble in the long run.

Julie Freedman-Smith

Right. And sometimes you don't know that until you started down that path. I think, like, you can be like, yeah, we're all in. And then as people are going along, they're like, are we though? Like, is this really where we want to go? And we can't know that until we start stepping in that direction. If we made the wrong decision, then we turn around and we kind of use that information. So I think that's valuable.

Tim Sweet

That's a great point. Because getting into that trap of saying, I said I was going to do it so now I'm going to do it. When you've taken three steps down the path and said, you know, actually, this is starting to feel bad or wrong but I said I was going to do it. And then we run up against other questions. Why? What's wrong with taking a new read and changing? Yeah, because that's sort of blind loyalty to do an objective, I used to call this steering with the headlights, right? You can't steer a car with the headlights. So if all you're seeing is sort of the end vision, yeah, that's important, it's important to look ahead. But you can't steer the car with the headlights, you got to be taking a read on your current situation, you have to be feeling the road through the steering wheel, you have to be sensing what's happening with the gas and the brake. And you have to be taking a look at the critical dials on the dashboard and what's going on around you. But if you're just blind adherence to the vision, you can cause a lot of problems.

Julie Freedman-Smith

Oh, wow, that's so fascinating. Okay, so this is not me talking from the Home Base perspective. But this is me talking about where we are in the world. I know I'm kind of going back to the first thing, I won't stay here for long. But I just think that just resonated for me so clearly. Because for many things, because there's so much change happening right now, and we're existing, and planning for a world that we don't quite know what it is, those headlights are not working. So if you're trying to steer from the headlights, you can't even see where you're going like, as arts organizations right now, and all the way through COVID, I'm steering an arts organization right now. And and nobody knows what's going to happen, because are we going to shut down? Can we still will we still be able to have concerts this year? What can we be doing? And then in the grander scheme of accessibility, and decolonization and all these areas where we're trying to take scope of all of these things, we don't even know what the vision is, we can see just beyond where we're driving to, and we're trying to move that forward. But we don't even know what it looks like, because there's so much change. And so I think that's just reinforcing this idea that yes, let's stay with the car, let's stay at the steering wheel, let's check the readings as we are driving, and having that feedback to check in staying present instead of going towards a future that we may not even know what that looks like, from global warming perspective, from different resources and fuels that we're using, from the shift within certain provinces to moving towards technology, as opposed to fossil fuels that we were using, there's so much new stuff, you know, there are no bright beams there.

Tim Sweet

I came up with that analogy in like 2006, or something. What's interesting about that, and what it raised for me is, maybe a better analogy at this point would be landing a plane in a blizzard, or something along those lines. You know, yeah, we have headlights, sure. Or maybe we can see a bit of the ground, but it's obscured by cloud and snow, something that we're familiar with. Modern air travel couldn't happen with just ground recognition. You know, they've got a transponder, which is the long term signal of am I moving closer or farther away from something? They've got feedback from the ground, potentially, of people, you know, telling them what's happening and what's going on around them. They've got onboard radar that can cut through the clouds, you're flying by instrumentation, they often call it right? They can understand if they're if they're level or if they're descending if they're ascending. And they can and and I think the metaphor carries to what you're saying, because whereby we used to be myopic, in a business on one aspect of where are we headed and how do we know if we're getting there? We may need to have multiple points of reference, multiple check ins to say are we being successful as an organization? And what that could mean, is are our goals from an ESG perspective, managed? Are our goals from a revenue perspective managed? Or goals from a customer or market position, perspective managed? Do we have all of our feelers out? And this used to be just the purview maybe of the topmost layer that would bring in all this information or have a broad view. But perhaps now, and I actually think this would follow with what I'm seeing is that we have to tie in that sensitivity down through the organization. 

Julie Freedman-Smith

Exactly. To the ground. 

Tim Sweet

Yeah. So that people have they have more than just the headlights, they have both the instruments that matter to them in their position and what they're doing, and a sense of where the the organization is going. And this is, again, it's nothing new. I'm saying it's probably more important right now that people understand their role within an organization and the health and the direction of the organization overall. And we see this from a social standpoint, where it's now very important for staff, in many organizations, if they're going to tie to something more than just a job, they tend to gravitate towards organizations where they believe in the cause, where there's something bigger than a paycheck. We don't really want to get into some of the complacency or that's existing in the workplace right now. But it's readily accessible, was we talked about last time, people wondering what's this all for? And so they can get quite complacent and despondent and nihilistic in their roles. If people are going to attach to an organization or communal, even a family goal, they've got to see it from so many different angles. And when the blizzard rolls in, they better be able to fly on instruments. You know what I mean? One of the greatest ways to do that, it's just really interesting. And I will often think back to, you know, in our family we have, we have bombers, which is I mean, it's war time, but they would have a navigator, they'd have a co pilot, they'd have a pilot, and when things got hairy, everybody's eyes were out the window, they were all looking for points of reference, they were all, you didn't just trust one set eyes, you couldn't. And it kind of feels like that a little bit, although I'd rather remove the war reference. But anyway, there we go.

Julie Freedman-Smith

Let's take it out of the sky and back into families here for a sec, if that's okay, although I love the way that you've said that. Because I think we need to remember that as we've got teenagers or kind of young, young children, but beyond the toddler stage where they're out and beyond that, like early school age, where they're coming into it, their eyes matter for sure. We need to see their frame of reference, they don't get to drive the plane, we're not putting our young kids in the cockpit, we're not letting them drive the plane. But we really want to know what they're seeing. Because that their point of view is not valued, or believed or important, they shut down, and they're gonna go into social media, they're gonna go places where they feel like they can have a say. So our words, and our actions really have to align that way. Because if we're saying, Oh, we want to hear what you have to say, and then we shut them out, or if we can't handle what they're saying, you know, they're coming at us with big emotions, and we can't handle it, and we might be saying, tell me, tell me, tell me, but then they tell us, Oh, my gosh, oh my gosh, I can't, or we just elevate up or we're bursting into tears or we're launching back at them. They're gonna learn really quickly that even though our word said, we want to hear what you're seeing, what your point of view is, that it's not happening. So I do think that's really interesting. And I love what you started with at the beginning this, where are you now? And where do you want to be? And I think that happens in families too, right, if you're, you're living that same argument day in day out, you're feeling disrespected, you're stuck in this spot. And it's almost like this, my childhood, my teenager doesn't even care, like they're not even willing to talk to me so why do I even bother to try and so you can find yourself in that malaise. But if you get to that point of articulating where you are, and where you want to be, and defining that gap, then you can come up with some language. And that's, I work with parents on that all the time. What are those next steps? What's the language? How do we pull everybody together for a conversation? Even with a child who maybe doesn't want to talk? And how can we help them to believe that we want to hear what they have to say, and we're open to having a conversation, instead of just a one directional, here's what you're going to do, because we want everybody within that family to feel like they have a purpose.

Tim Sweet

I want to tack on to your your example a little bit and tell me, I think this is both organizations and and families. If we fail to see the challenge, or the gap, or the journey through the child's eyes, and where we are, their point of reference, or perhaps the employee's eyes, and they don't feel that they're moving in a way that is also addressing some of their own needs - and I'm going to take it back a little bit into I don't know some form of transportation - but they start to I don't know if it's panic or resist or something but they might start hanging their their hand out the window. They might, you know, they form drag and, and they might even want to go off to, and it doesn't take long. The vision that's popping up in my head is, and it's not always a healthy one, but it's the child that that isn't seeing their their immediate needs met or want met in a grocery store when they go buy the candy aisle or something. And they go on their knees and now they're being dragged along. 

Julie Freedman-Smith

Yes, yes. The soft body thing when you're trying to get them up and they can't. That goes right back to the toddler. Yeah.

Tim Sweet

Absolutely. And so suddenly the forward moment time that we had as a family or as a team can be, can be held back by people dragging their feet or being scared or not seeing their needs met, and essentially, like drag is the right word, they begin to drag. And then I mean, all sorts of bad things can happen in terms of resentment can build up, we don't feel like we're moving, as you know, forms a major distraction.

Julie Freedman-Smith

I'm in one of my children's rooms right now. And one of the ways that that happens in the home, right, with an older child who's not going to be lying on the ground being pulled, is they go up into their room, and they don't come out. And we have employees doing that too, right? I mean, you we all know the people that you've asked them for stuff. And you're waiting for them to get back to you. And you're waiting. And then you're you're kind of using the kind of nice language, hey, thought that was going to be coming and when can we expect an update? And they've gone into, they've just gone into their shell, and they're not coming out. And it could be that they're in there because they're frustrated and angry, it could be that they're in there because they don't feel they can do it. They're stuck.

Tim Sweet

That is a really interesting idea. Because maybe, maybe we see the behavior creeping up in families where people become insular and they start to isolate themselves off. But in organizations, when we started staying at home and everything, we isolated people.

Julie Freedman-Smith

Yes, yes. Literally and figuratively. Yeah.

Tim Sweet

Literally. And so, to me, it's kind of interesting, because depending on the group, which is the cause and effect there? Are, are they now isolated? Because we isolated them? And they had to learn to do that, as a matter of survival? Or are they isolated, because something else has changed and they've, you know, we kind of opened the door, and now it's become more and more isolated? And I don't think it's as simple as I mean, I've had conversations with some people is this extrovert introvert, you know, behavior? Maybe? Well, I mean, some people may operate better than, or whatever, but I think it's learned, it's learned to a certain extent, coping mechanisms and the rest of it. But then also, you're from a different vantage point, or you're cut off from certain information. And, you know, now ou've learned to fly a certain way.

Julie Freedman-Smith

It's your new identity. Yeah, you're just trapped there.

Tim Sweet

New perspective, new paradigm. 

Julie Freedman-Smith

Yeah. So again, it's part of our jobs, I think, in both of our work is, how can we help people to feel safe enough to imagine or be willing to imagine a slightly different identity and then take those first steps to get there.

Tim Sweet

I think both of us do this. And as anybody who's listened to us before, I mean you've coached me as a parent, and… 

Julie Freedman-Smith

And you've coached me.

Tim Sweet

Did I say that right? You've coached me as a parent, no

Julie Freedman-Smith

You have been a client of mine, you have coached me and I have coached you. So, sure, yes.

Tim Sweet

But you know, one of the things that I think is, is is interesting here, when we talk about getting them out of this malaise is giving them more points of reference. Giving them more dials on the dashboard, throwing them back into different ways of framing, and looking and analyzing, measuring where they are and where they're going. Because the old instruments, the old standby ways that they're viewing the world might have become myopic, they might have become too limited, maybe enough to survive, but not enough to thrive or change or move forward. And so help them imagine and reframe, and analyze, again, redefine re-measure, where they are, where they're going. Give them a slightly different set of tools, or a slightly different set of, a different viewpoint, so that they can start to broaden their awareness again, so they can start to use different senses and see them see themselves through because perhaps their measures have become too limited. Perhaps their their their ways of navigating have become reliant on, you know, the wrong input or limited input. Yeah. I mean, I know, as I said, you know, when, when you've coached me, that's been your, probably your top roll, is to say, have you thought about it this way? Or can I offer that, you know, that we look at this from this perspective? And it's in those moments that I get out of my own head and my limited scope of seeing the problem, and I go, okay, now I can see that there's actually a foothold over here that I can reach for, but I didn't see it before. Right. I didn't, I didn't have the viewpoint.

Julie Freedman-Smith

And so so often, I use this in my coaching. I'm not saying this is where you are, but it's kind of that same thing. Oftentimes, it's us against our child in a situation. It doesn't work versus us and our child against the situation, or within the situation, depending on whether you want to be against something or just like, okay, we're both stuck in this problem. And we know we need to find a solution but there's a very big difference between we need to find a solution, and I'm going to tell you the solution. No, I'm going to tell you the solution. 

Tim Sweet

Yeah. Are we up against our limited perception of the situation? Are we up against a paradigm or a picture of the situation that maybe is not shared by two people, and maybe is too limited to give us all of the, you know, I think of like an old school TV. While we kind of have an outline, and we're looking through static, but we don't have color, we don't have definition, we don't have contrast. We need to tune this in. And we have several different knobs we need to spin to do that.

Julie Freedman-Smith

Yes, you realize that TVs aren't even a thing anymore.

Tim Sweet

They’re not even a thing anymore, I know.

Julie Freedman-Smith

Feeling a bit old today.

Tim Sweet

Uh well, I mean, here's an interesting analogy, which is super old school, you know, because our family and our parents or grandparents are aging, we're inheriting a lot of stuff. And one of the things that we inherited was an old record player. And this particular record player is able to play 78s and LPs. And the way in which a stereo LP works, and I just learned this, when I was thinking about this, when I was curious, is that the needle isn't just riding up and down, it's riding side to side. And that's how you get stereo, it's actually vibrating side to side more than it is up and down. In addition, up and down. Whereas the 78 is bouncing up and down. And there's only really one input, and it's a mono input, right, because it's up and down. There's nothing being fed from above, whereas if your left and right, you can, you can have two sauna waves, right. And we're trying to judge the world through this mono vision through this, and we're missing out a whole bunch of detail. And we're or at least we're missing out, we're just missing out from we have to, we have to step into a different way of looking at things that's probably more relevant to our situation. And then move.

Julie Freedman-Smith

Yeah, and our kids are seeing things. And the younger generation is seeing things so differently than we are. And so it's really important to take that in. It's so valuable.

Tim Sweet

It’s so fascinating as a as a parent, and I think this again, can be applied towards who we see, as senior leaders in organizations. There was a quote, and I can't remember it exactly, but essentially, parents have the experience, and they find conflict with the children, when their construct of the world is being challenged. When it's how I understand the world and where I find a position of power or control or, you know, the ability to navigate. Suddenly the child is, they're not necessarily rebelling, although that's how we take it, but they're seeing the world a different way. They're seeing different possibilities. And it's threatening, in some ways, because all of a sudden, it's like, I didn't realize how much I didn't know.

Julie Freedman-Smith

The walls are coming down. Yeah. 

Tim Sweet

The walls are coming down. And now it's a move or die situation because you really start to feel like oh, am I the dinosaur here? And I think in organizations, we're still running on old assumptions. And in many cases, trying to try to behave the way the tried and true ways of doing it. Well, you know, what, if you tried to run a business, the way you ran a business in 1926, today it would fail. Or at least it would be pretty limited in its ability to react. If you tried to run a business or something like a, you know, 17th century print shop, you know, yeah, you're gonna be able to print a book, but it's not going to be able to stand up to a lot of the things, we just we can't move backwards in that way. And yet we've, we've limited ourselves. So yeah, I guess I would say, I'm gonna go back full circle here, it's about what's the viewpoint? Can we give them a new sense of instrumentation? Appreciation? And again, in my context, with you, it's always been, if I just moved three steps to the right, does a new shadow fall on a new handhold that I can reach for and get myself up this wall? I remember that in climbing all the time. You know, you'd have a person on belay. And they would say, you know, I know you can't see it, but just reach out to your left and you're gonna feel a crack. Got it? And you needed that because you're in the blind, right? And I think it's important. Okay, so getting started, maybe a great first step for everybody that's listening is bring in some different perspectives. Check your instrument set.

Julie Freedman-Smith

And when we talked about bringing in some different perspectives, at the risk of saying you don't need us coaches, because you do, but also take the perspective of the people who are in the room. Don't just go outside. Listen to the people. That's a huge part.

Tim Sweet

It's funny you say that because it's like, there is the perspective, there's our perspectives and maybe let me clarify, because I think one of the big things that you've done for me, and I think I do this with businesses, is it's about facilitating the conversation between those perspectives. And so, absolutely. I mean, sometimes it's getting to those perspectives. That's the challenge. And maybe that's the role even that we play. More than simply giving them answers.

Julie Freedman-Smith

Is talking about them, or how to talk about them. And yeah, absolutely.

Tim Sweet

We used to say, he wants a consultant, a consultant, they borrow your watch to tell you the time.

Julie Freedman-Smith

No, I don't think that's what you and I do. 

Tim Sweet

I hope it's not, I don't think that's what you and I do, but the fundamental truths in an organization. Somebody else usually knows them. They just haven't risen to the surface yet. So how do we, how do we find them amplify them? You know, let them see the light of day and let everybody see them. So that somebody on the team, the answers are there, it's about, can we get to them and in a family, you know, if you're listening to your kids, you're probably going to get a slightly different or, you know, if partners are working together or whatever. If you're listening to other heads than just your own, you're probably a little better off.

Julie Freedman-Smith

I think so and that, but then there's always that thing of, we can all only see what we can see. And so, sometimes, it does take somebody else to come in and say, yes. And like, you were saying, like the person that's belaying or whatever the climber can still say, oka, y eah, there's something over there, that's just out of your view that you can't see, and I think sometimes that can be helpful too.

Tim Sweet

Oh, yeah. So I want to ask you what are some of the tools that you would use or suggest for people to consider when they're really tuning in to where they are today, and how they're feeling? And perhaps, you can start here if you like, why do people avoid asking those questions naturally? Why is it not a natural state for people to just get there on their own?

Julie Freedman-Smith

Well I think it's very scary because there's a lot of sadness that we, and some could say grief, that is kind of in there and if you dig you will hit something. And so it's just, it’s way safer to just not dig and we can use videos and all sorts of things to kind of keep us kind of distracted from that. So I think there's a lot of things that can distract us from that. We also, it's scary to dig from a parent-child perspective because we're not sure that we're going to be able to help our kids if we actually asked them about how sad they are. And so if we just keep hoping that we just don't talk about it, maybe it'll just go away, maybe it'll just go away. So I think that's part of it. It's just this fear of what if I personally don't know how to handle where I get to? What if I don't know how to handle when my child is getting to and maybe it'll just get better? Plus again, we're seeing on social media, all these crises that people are going through. And so, I think there could be a little bit of hierarchy of sadness. Like, do I have a right to feel sad when I have a home? I have food, I live in a perfectly safe environment. I've got theoretically, all the stuff that should be making me happy, and then there are people who  do not have access to food. There are people whose countries are in war. There are people who can't make choices over their own bodies. Really is my thing even that, or should I just put it away and just keep trudging down the same path. So I think those are all reasons why people aren't necessarily willing to admit or take a peek at how they're really feeling. 

Tim Sweet

I love that last point and you and I had a conversation in a few days ago about I remember seeing a social post which talked about this wheel of privilege, I think it was. And it was all the ways in which you can experience privilege, and it's pretty good. It's pretty good viewpoint in terms of saying, you know, it would talk about gender, male, female, and then other expressions, right? And it would talk about wealth, it would talk about age, it would talk about, you know, and really and I don't say this with, I'm just being open here, I looked at myself and of these however, many 15 categories, by this person's estimation or whoever created this, and in this is where I'm privileged. I hit the lottery in all but two of them, you know, the only place I was failing was I was heavy, you know, in stature. There wasn't one for hair there, but if there had been, it would have been like bald would have been to the outside and age, right. That I'm in the middle now, but really, I mean, recognizing that. And then realizing that actually, really, for me, this has been a source of consternation in that I really do feel like I don't have the right to complain, all heck of a lot and so you always, I remember saying to,   some of it, I was talking to, you know, my I was telling them, they were asking what's up? And I was telling them, you know, where we're got some challenge in the rest night and I prefaced and said, you know, these are first world problems and they truly are.

Julie Freedman-Smith

Yeah. But there's still problems, that’s the thing. We're all, we all can only live in the world. In the lane that we've been dealt are in the. Yeah, I'm sorry, much metaphor.

Tim Sweet

I can't change it, right?

Julie Freedman-Smith

No. You can increase your understanding. And I think I've heard that definition of privilege, as being, you don't have the understanding of the other situations within that lane, but we are all in this lane and we can have those feelings. And, and, you know, when we're talking were teaching kids about feelings, we teach them that feelings change. And there are all sorts of feelings. And there are feelings that are uncomfortable to us and there are feelings that are more comfortable, but we need to have them all. They don't define us as a as a person. All people have a variety of feelings, they can change and a friend of mine said the other day and I think he's heard this somewhere else, is that instead of just trying to feel better, let's be better at feeling. So let's be aware that all of these feelings are there and once we find a safe way to explore them, then we can release, like we can move through them and we don't necessarily stuck in them. And sometimes we need a balance of different feelings together to kind of shift our way into a new feeling. Now I know that we were trying to keep this short and and we can do that, but can you tell me a little bit about why that would happen in the workplace? Why people are not confronting their feelings within the workplace?

Tim Sweet

Sure, I do want to just I want to put a point on your, on this issue of do I have a right to feel sad or or lacking in some way. I want to just break before I leave that one entirely. I think that is existed for me and then you have to say, as you said I'm still unhappy and I'm going to do something about it. Just because… I want to make the most of this life so I'm going to do the best I can and just because I'm ahead of others by some measures, does it mean I should stop trying to be the best I can be? Or, you know, open up possibilities for other in the process because I'm creating space to care for others. Whatever that is. So that's a real thing in one way. I just want to tack on one of the thought and that is, maybe this is for later, but I think this is actually stifling a lot of conversation because people are, I find myself as a creator, careful of what I talked about because I am in a position of privilege. I am in this struggle where I have to say, but I'm going to talk about it anyway. I'm going to do it with respect, understanding my perspective on the world, and that there are other viewpoints and I need to be conscious of those. It's really an interesting conversation probably for later. Which is just to say, you know, that position in the world, should that stop me from trying to do better with what I've got and should it stifle what I'm willing to share? Because I could be, and have been, by the way accused of been, you know, pale, male and stale.

Julie Freedman-Smith

Yeah. But, and you still feel.

Tim Sweet

And I still feel. So I think, but we'll put a point on that and say that is one reason why people don't don't strive in terms of what am I seeing in the business, I would say I see people putting other people first in many ways, especially among leaders. And I remember reading this excellent article, that was around this study that was done that said, most people who own pets or dogs or horses or cats or whatever they are, will make sure that a horse has a chiropractor and they'll make sure that that chiropractor is booked while their own back is, in trouble. They will fail to fill subscriptions or take their pills regularly, where if the dog gets sick, I mean that pill is in peanut butter and it's going down the dog's throat come hell or high water. You know, that is that's happening. And so I think one of the reasons why we avoid getting lower complaining is actually we simply don't prioritize ourselves or our own needs. It's very easy for us to deny ourselves and to say well we actually don't matter. iI's why in organizations you see people finding very safe to talk about making the situation improved for everyone. But on more than one occasion, when I shift the conversation over and say, why does this matter to you? How does this benefit your career? Let's really attach to that as a source of motivation and do well for the community. In certain organizations t his is like a no-fly zone, because if there's any indication that I'm doing this for selfish reasons, you're seen as self-serving. And it's not a, you know I'm doing it for myself or for the organization, if we're really going to drive an impetus to change, it's got to be, I'm motivated to do this. I can succeed personally, and professionally and I got to be comfortable with it. And I think that translates into the getting low discussion, getting getting down into the weeds and being worth taking a look at the dark stuff and questioning do I want to live in darkness in these areas? Do I I want to feel uncomfortable? And do I want to feel like I'm less than I could be? Or am I allowed to feel unhappy, right? Do I want to really understand that. I think you got a value yourself a certain amount to invest the time to say, you know what, I really want to understand this for myself and be worth the climb, right? Based on one of our other conversations, it's really interesting because at one time we become more and more isolated, very, very self-centered. You drive on the roads and you see nimbyism is everywhere right. The what's in it for me stuff is really really strong right now, but at the same time people are not necessarily really saying why, why am I what do I need to do? And so it's this funny kind of kind of contradictory thing we're at one point we want to be alone but at the same time we still that doesn't mean we want to do the work right to really understand. So I don't know if that's a great answer but there that would be, that my answer be.

Julie Freedman-Smith

There's an element of courage there. Do I have the strength? Do I have the love surrounding me to help me dive into the deep stuff and also what you're saying resonated s o clearly for me because I am totally generalizing here, but I just what you were defining was exactly a mom's thing like I'll eat the burnt toast and give everybody else a nice piece of toast or I'll scrape the bottom of the pot and make sure everybody else has food. It's just such a thing. And what I talk about in parenting is that if we have these key values, if we are saying, if our words are saying everybody in the family matters, that we respect everyone in the family that we show care and kindness and compassion for everyone, but our actions say, I'm going to show care and kindness compassion for everybody, but me, it's our actions that are teaching our kids. And I think that that totally carries through in a business, right? If we want people to be willing to fail, to willing to explore, how they have a role in the company and yet, as a leader, we're doing that or we’re pretending we're kind of focusing on that or talking about it for everybody else but not leading by example, then it's not going to happen. And so culture is really important that way we need to model the culture that we want to create within the organization whether it's a family or a business I think. 

Tim Sweet

One of my first professional challenges when I opened my first consultancy years ago, I remember was dealing with a maintenance manager and he was the hardest working guy that I had met up to that point. I mean was a, you know, he was always on call, he took no time for himself and he was a true definition of martyr. And then he wondered, why he couldn't Inspire anybody else to follow him in leadership. And there was two primary reasons that are very simple. One, is he made it look like such a drag that, who the heck wants to go there? Because his life was in shambles kind of thing. Or at least he was, he was sacrificing and liquidating his own health to make sure that the factory was up and running. And the second thing was, he didn't let anybody do it because that was his role, that was his identity, was being the person who ate the burnt toast, you know, being the person who had garbage can you know, whatever was left on the table and and take the drinks and that was part of his identity. And you know, it was really early on in my career, doing identity and belief work where we had to get down to this, you know, you're holding onto this and there's deeply rooted reasons why this is what you think a leader looks like and what a leader does and it and it really it wasn't the hero with a thousand helpers, kind of. But it was like the martyr with, you know, a thousand, like it was really it was really clear, and when we got him out of that state suddenly he was able to mentor people into his position because he'd opened up enough space to let them try and fail and work. And the other thing was, is that it is that he had something that people could conceptualize from the outside of being more of a success. And I mean, I know as a parent but I take this into the home every once in a while you slip into that really negative space. And it's like, you know, I haven't even I haven't even taken any time for myself for the last. I got to do this. Yeah, I got to do the dishes again and wahh. You know, that's like the parental tantrum. In the workplace, y ou see some toxic behaviors in a lot of teams, which is how's it going? Ah, I'm just so busy, so busy, everything is so busy and I have no time for myself and it's like, that's your opening statement. And you see environments where employees will even if they're not terribly, busy, boy, will they hustle, you know, back in the day that hustle from desk to desk or they be late for meetings because to be anything else is to admit that you're not flat out and just just straining to to meet your workload. Right. So yeah I think that's a funny one. Where are we going to take that, Julie? If we want to get low, we have to get over ourselves. Is that it? 

Julie Freedman-Smith

I think we need to find a way to infuse the other side of it, and inspire and find hope. And what's going to get us excited about something? 

Tim Sweet

That's a good one. What immediately went to there is that's very little about external inspiration.  That's a lot about internal inspiration and a lot about internal.

Julie Freedman-Smith

Yeah. Well, we just need to own it right?

Tim Sweet

Okay.

Julie Freedman-Smith

That's where we're going next. 

Tim Sweet

That's where we're going next. So as we often do, we approach a conversation from a bunch of different places and we're onto this fourth conversation in this kind of exploration and it was all around that there seems to be this this unsatisfied need for change and improvement and it's showing up in the workplace and it's showing up in the home and we're seeing this movement again. I'm seeing it in my practice, you're seeing yours. We talked about that occurring and people feeling the need, then we talked about how were they really going to get started? And then we talked about why do they avoid getting started in the first place and understanding that. So potentially, that can help people really check in and see if that might be something that's holding them back. For the last conversation here, when a person moves through this, they have the opportunity to learn how to become more change ready, how to adopt an ability or a habit to stimulate change so that when they feel there's a need they can complete this loop a little more quickly. And so you and I talked off mic about how would we introduce this and you warned me that this might be a dated example, but I'm going to do it anyway. When I was growing up, there was an Irish-born British dog trainer and you knew name and I didn't

Julie Freedman-Smith

Barbara Woodhouse.

Tim Sweet

Barbara Woodhouse. And on the TV, when she would train dogs, she used to say walkies - you probably do it better than me. 

Julie Freedman-Smith

Walkies! 

Tim Sweet

Okay, right. And if you in in the show, as soon as she said that to the to the dog, the dog got really excited and was ready to go and having owned dogs in the past. I mean, as soon as the leash comes out, the dog is ready to go off and the dog will bring the leash to you and be ready to go. And I this metaphor kind of it feels like this to me because if there's a need for change how do we get ourselves into that change ready state? How do we bring out the the walkies for ourselves so we're like amped up and that's what I want to talk about today is how can we adopt a practice priming ourselves for change?

Julie Freedman-Smith

Yeah. Can I jump in?

Tim Sweet

Please.

Julie Freedman-Smith

Okay so I appreciate that's a really old metaphor and I love it because if you have seen the show, you know, you know exactly what happens. And I think it's a really good cue for all of us about that exact thing which is to take ourselves for a walk. Because we talked in the last segment about finding the courage to understand how we were feeling to recognize the lows that we might be feeling and the discomfort about where we are and where where we might want to be. It takes courage to figure out where we are, especially if that where we are feels yucky.  And it is daunting to imagine where we might want to be as we've said because we've just had two years of n ope, can't do that, can't do that, can't do that kind of coming at us and it's like, do I even want to try again? And yet, I find that one of the ways to really listen to the internal self and to and to find that inspiration for okay, what do I want? Maybe there's something inside of me that I really want, but I don't even know what it is, because I've been dumbing it out, numbing it out. So if we take ourselves on a walk into nature, ideally on our own, and ask that question, as we're walking, the idea of not having other things to numb it out and to just create this space and ask and be open to listening and it might not come in for a few minutes and just noticing the trees and the birds and whatever it is, that can really create that space within ourselves, the quietness, to be able to hear the messages that are asking. So I think walkies is a good, kind of a great way to think about that, as a way to inspire ourselves to move forward.

Tim Sweet

I didn't make that connection at all. I think you're 100%, right. I was just thinking that John Muir, who is somebody that I really followed as a young man, he was this naturalist and mountaineer who… there was a quote that he he had every walk with nature, I just called it up “every walk with nature one receives far more than they seek”, right? And he had one more that I loved, and which was “between every two pines is a doorway to a new world”, but he used to talk about this Muir trek and I did this as a child. My dad turned me on to it and and I remember as an 18, 19 year-old, man, I couldn't afford much but I could afford, I went to the Salvation Army and I bought a fondue cooker that took alcohol fuel and I packed, you know, a few pounds of rice and beans. I had a tarp and an old sleeping bag and I would go out into the mountains and spend several nights on these Muir treks. And they were seriously for an extroverted, you know, pretty comfortable in crowds guy to get into the mountains and treat that, as my cathedral, my confessional, whatever it was going to be. And really spend some time with myself, as a young man, contemplating life, whatever, and doing it because it's just, it's, you elements silence survival, maybe being quite comfortable in in that backcountry. But still, you're not pretty much down to a fairly  primal existence, right? And just treking for days. And that, I mean, it's an extreme example of what your saying. 

Julie Freedman-Smith

Yeah. Around the block will do it.

Tim Sweet

Around the block will do it and hey, there's a personal element to this. Like, as you know, I just had a double knee replacement come. And so for years and COVID i t got really bad. I could walk less than three house lengths before I had to stop and turn around. Couldn't do it. Yeah. It is amazing how imprisoning that is when you can't be with yourself in that sense. There's always mobility concerns so that some people will be in wheelchairs and and traveling in different ways. But just to have that available because it really is something that's just stellar to go out and just lead yourself by the hand a little bit. 

Julie Freedman-Smith

Mmhmm. And listen. 

Tim Sweet

And listen. Yeah, like, you know, what are you actually saying and why does it matter and and are you asking yourself questions. You know, people think that they say something and they understand what it means to themselves. Dig deep, I love that one. Okay so prime for change, get walking.

Julie Freedman-Smith

Yeah, or a lot of the time asking yourself a question and allowing your body to write the answer. So where do I want to be? What would it be like if? What am I thinking about right now? And just allowing the pen to write it instead of the voice to speak it. Because oftentimes, what comes out of your pen as a little bit different than what comes out of your mouth.

Tim Sweet

Wow, that's that's really close to home. During the last year, or so, I was running a group first thing in the morning 6:30, at have a group of people that would join me online for 12 minutes. That was our goal. 

Julie Freedman-Smith

Yep. 

Tim Sweet

And, you know me, and 12 minutes that goes pretty quick. 

Julie Freedman-Smith

Yep. 

Tim Sweet

But I still run these from time to time. We're going to be kicking off another one here. I t was based on. Yeah, the work by Julia Cameron, which was– 

Julie Freedman-Smith

Morning Pages. 

Tim Sweet

Morning Pages. Yeah. And so we would get into a room and we would just write. You don't write for anybody else. You don't have a set task at hand, you just right Tim Ferriss calls it spiritual windshield wipers, right. And you just dump your random access memory onto this page without any kind of constraint and see what comes out. And either it's worth something or it just needed to be out, but it is really the inspiration for a lot of questions I'll tell you. And often, even though you don't want it to mean anything, boy, does it ever.

Julie Freedman-Smith

Yes, exactly. Kleenex boxes are handy beside those pieces of paper, in my experience. And then, so, oftentimes creating that for possibility. There are a bunch of voices in our heads that say, yeah. But that's not or no no no no no or we protective voices, right? Reluctance, resistance. And and if there is an opportunity, even for a series of minutes and you could set a timer for this to say, okay resistance, I know you're right there, I'm going to sit you right beside me. We can we can put you right back in in two minutes but for two minutes, I'm going to imagine the possibilities without the resistance. If this was different, if life was different, if I wasn't who I was or whatever it is, you know, however, you need to dispose of that resistance for a couple of minutes. It's not saying, hey just get rid of that. No, just put it beside you, it can sit in the chair right beside you, and just dream for a moment. That often is a way to just spark that possibility that can guide you forward.

Tim Sweet

I call those background conversations when you've got some nagging doubt or something. You know, all the reasons why you can't. When we do this with group work we called this what if we could conversations and it's like, yeah okay I understand there's a bunch of reasons that we can't do that right now. There's a bunch of perceived strains known constraints. But what if we could? What would life be like, on the other side of that achievement? How would it change for ourselves or company or customers? Whatever that's going to be. Yeah, what can be such a compelling vision, that it's like, then we can ask the question, well, why can't we? And then we can start to challenge those assumptions and those constraints.

Julie Freedman-Smith

So those are my three thoughts about how to, how do we step off to a new place?

Tim Sweet

Yeah, unexpected and great. I love that. So again, go for a walk, change your perspective from that, you get out, get moving, write it down, see what comes out of the end of the pen, and then really, you know, give those inside voices their due but not before you have a chance to dream.

Julie Freedman-Smith

I love that. What if we could? What if we could? 

Tim Sweet

I love that. What if we could. Great acronym.  Anyway. 

Julie Freedman-Smith

Walkies!

Tim Sweet

Walkies! As we were just kicking off there, I went a slightly different direction, I think in terms of change, like prime for change and it kind of It kind of goes back to what are your sort of patterns of resistance and things like that?  But I found it really, really useful right now for people to get in touch with getting a little more fluent in what are their kind of base operating systems? So, for me right now, I've been doing a lot of work with Lencioni's Working Genius. And so it's do you understand what genius you you operate consistently in? And if not consistently, at least you're competent in. And you understand what geniuses that other people have that, you find that you lack and you find even frustrating to engage in. So that's where you can say these are my blind spots and I can get into that. I think that's a yeah, having a perspective like that of how do I tend to approach challenges? Am I way up in the ideation space? Am I in the collaborate and activation space? Or am I down in that get ‘er done space? And it'll often give you some insight to why you might be biased towards something else, right? So being prime for changes understand your own bias, understand your base operating system and be fluent in it. It's not to feel bad about it. It's just so that you can recognize patterns of thought and anticipate them. And also anticipate maybe dipping in or seeking some outside h elp might be from a different perspective. So understand yourself a little bit more, and I don't think it has to just be that tool. I think there's, in the work world, we can use things like, you know, work style preferences where we're saying you know, do I want to be up in the ask big questions space? If I avoid that space then maybe I need to, you know, have a little help to get there or recognize that I'm not there yet and go into it. I think there is that willingness to tap those around you, honestly. We see this a lot in the boxing community. When we see people leveling up and raising and raising their game, it really is about making sure you've got the right team in your corner and you have, you know, in a boxer's context, you have your promoter, you have your coach and your trainer, and you have your cut man and you have medical staff and you may have somebody else that's there or just sort of a your entourage or whatever it is. But each one of these people, they fill a really specific goal because what was it, Muhammad Ali had that quote that said you know, “everybody's got a plan until they get punched in the face”. And and so, in those times when you're down, and you may be resistant to change, that you have trusted people around you. Can be a spouse. It can be, it can be, I don't know clergy or whatever it is, whatever that's around you. But you know, getting the sense of, I realize that something needs to change here and I need to like let's bring the corner in so that so that we can, we can get moving. I think that's a, that's a big one, especially organizationally because it and it fits with the other one because you may have blind spots and you, and you may not see everything. And this goes back to what you and I were talking about before. Being able to see that hand hold that's out of reach, and gain a different perspective. So I think having that team around, you being being able to get outside your own head. So and I think that's really interesting because going for the walk, when we talked about that, that's like really getting in your head and I think that's really important but then if you're stuck let's bring in the cavalry and how do we get a little bit of help.

Julie Freedman-Smith

So hold on to whatever your else you're going to say, because I don't want to make you lose that, but that brings up two more things for me. One is In the singing world - I think this is the same one in whatever world you're in, probably in the boxing world. When you're singing with people who are slightly better - I heard somebody say this best, if you're the smartest person in the room, find a new room, you want to have people around you that are slightly at a higher level so that you can rise to that, right? So part of it is looking at that team and seeing are there mentors? Are there people who can inspire me, and to whom I can aspire, you know, to become? And then I think also the in the boxing analogy in Taoism there's this idea that our opponents are really valuable to us because they raise us to be as good as them. So whenever we are challenging something, someone, or competing with them, we want to be competing against an excellent competitor because that raises the bar for us to become even more than we are. And so I think it's yeah, it's really just about that idea of when you're building your team or when you're finding your team, even if it's somebody who's a competitor, identify those competitors that will inspire you to become better. And have those people around you, that you can rise up because that gives you some kind of a goal. Something to work towards. 

Tim Sweet

The strongest trees grow in rocky soil. That's what they say, right? I want to go back to the comment you made about who you surround yourself with. And I remember that when my dad retired from teaching, he addressed the class at his school and he said, you know, if I can give you any advice, it is to ensure that you surround yourself with people that lift you up. You will be you will be as successful as the average of the people you surround yourself with, which is a commonly said thing, and I really do believe that that is true. And it doesn't mean we shouldn't have room in our hearts and our lives f or people that may be struggling.

Julie Freedman-Smith

No, we need it all, we need all of it.

Tim Sweet

That's right. But I, what's interesting about that statement is And and, you and I, we deal with  or we're exposed to especially in the family since, you know, the concerns over social media and whatnot like this. And of late, it's not a minor topic that people get stuck in a real negative cycle of comparing themselves with the ideal images that people put up online. Yeah. And I remember reading an article, which I actually take issue with, that said, do not engage in comparison with others, like don't compare yourself, there's a lot of grief to be found there. What I found lacking in that article is I actually think we need to have a healthy relationship with comparison. We have to we have to approach it and say, you know, yes I can find inspiration in other people and I can use that to inspire, motivate, mentor myself into a different position. I'm involved right now in a group that's all about high-tech startups and I am surrounded by people that are infinitely more knowledgeable than I am. And I have things to contribute but it is absolutely rewarding to be in this place and just be opened up to aspects of business that I have not had sufficient exposure to, and they're lifting me up and I feel absolutely privileged, or--

Julie Freedman-Smith

Grateful, to be in.

Tim Sweet

Grateful.

Julie Freedman-Smith 

Blessed to be amongst them.

Tim Sweet

Yeah. To be in and just learning through osmosis in some ways, right?

Julie Freedman-Smith

Yeah, yeah. Swimming with great brains like call it. Like your brain is in the same water as all these amazing brains and it's just it's all coming together and inspiring the different thoughts. Yeah, fantastic.

Tim Sweet

And in order to do that and, maybe this is this is one other thing, maybe I can add on an additional thing here and that is, you know, a knowledge of when we're in a scarce mindset when we are engaged in scarcity, because if you are in a scarce mindset and you see someone, you see this, I see this in my kids all the time when they're, you know, they're going through adolescence and they're trying to figure out, where do they fit in the world, and they engage in a lot of comparison with, with their peers. But if you're in a scarce mindset, you start to engage in that well, if they're good, that means ipso facto I'm not and the better, they are the worse I am versus seeing it as they're where they are, and I am where I am. And if I choose to I can raise my game in that area and it's not about like it's kind of like that infinite pool of potential and really not seeing it as so competitions. Great competition from the sense of scarcity. Although, I mean, look in some forms, we do have first second, and third happens, but their potential doesn't. They're worth received fourth doesn't dictate my own?

Julie Freedman-Smith

Yeah, exactly. exactly. Well, we've talked about so many different ways to begin that seed coming out of the earth and developing into something new and places, you know, having that purpose ahead of us so that we can create the steps to get us there. We got to a good place, it was so grim in the first one.

Tim Sweet

Well, I mean this is the thing and I think as we're you know, as we're prefacing this for people, we have to open them up to the possibility that we're going to arrive just where we got. 

Julie Freedman-Smith

Yes. And you have to go low to get high. And like down comes the up and then up comes down and… 

Tim Sweet

Yeah and I think that that may be a great note to stop on, is just the fact that for all of us to remember that, you know, just because you feel that change needs to happen and you're lower than you want to be right now or the rest of it, is to have some general acceptance that whatever happens there is potential in movement, right? There is always,you know, we can be sometimes tossed around as being a little bit new agey but say that you know well change is inevitable and all change can be good change. I think that that is not entirely true but I mean, you know what, you can you can find a way through.

Julie Freedman-Smith

I hope so. And if you can't then find somebody to help you find a way through. Right?

Tim Sweet

Boom. I don't know anybody like that do you? Just kidding. Okay. All right. Julie, once again, so much fun to explore this with you.

Julie Freedman-Smith

Yeah always fun.

Tim Sweet

Maybe what we should do, really briefly, though, is just if people want to approach change and the need for change and how to get there differently, how can they find you?

Julie Freedman-Smith

The best way to find me is through my linktree which is julie.f.s. Well, I'm sure we'll have everything listed below or attached to whatever format this is this is coming in. Yeah, I help parents find their voice and get them feeling confident that when things are not going well they're going to be able to know what to say and and feel like they can create a family life that they want so that their child's childhood can be fun and feel safe and that they can teach their kids how to become the adults that they eventually will be.

Tim Sweet

Life's a garden, dig it.

Julie Freedman-Smith

What about you, Tim? if parents, no–

Tim Sweet

Parents, don't call me, call Julie.

Julie Freedman-Smith

Yes. If teams want support, if leaders want to know how to lead and teams want support, how do they find you?

Tim Sweet

TeamworkExcellence.com/discovery, you can book a half an hour with me and the best way to start is to start. There's lots on that website that you can find, information, but if you want to book a half an hour with me, that's the link. Otherwise look for me on social on @sweetleadership and always happy to answer questions. Have you read my stuff? You find it inspiring? Great.

Julie Freedman-Smith

Yeah. And it's easy to talk to us. We're very talkable, as you can hear. We're always interested in having that first conversation and in letting you decide where you want to go from there.

Tim Sweet

Julie, thank you so much again. It's always a pleasure. 

Julie Freedman-Smith

Yeah. Super fun.