In a dynamic discussion, Tim Sweet and seasoned software engineer Dan Löfquist explore the intersection of technology and leadership in today's dynamic landscape. They discuss the need to adapt and stay flexible to meet innovation head-on. They highlight the importance of leaders who embrace change and foster collaboration across generations. This episode is for any leader having doubts about how to navigate the complexities of leadership in the digital era.

Tim and Dan also discuss the imperative for leaders to adapt and embrace uncertainty amidst a rapidly changing world. They touch upon topics such as generational differences in the workplace, the evolving role of technology, and the value of transparent communication. Drawing from Dan's experience as a consultant, they share the significance of modular thinking and delegation to navigate complex challenges. Together, they reflect on the shifting paradigms of work and advocate for prioritizing empathy and collaboration in driving organizational success.

About Dan Löfquist

Dan Löfquist is a seasoned consultant and principal at Input Consulting in Stockholm, boasting nearly 40 years of combined experience in software development, banking, finance, and the travel industry. With a strong foundation in systems design and a relentless drive for innovation, Dan brings unparalleled expertise to the forefront of modern technology and leadership. His extensive background equips him with the skills needed to guide organizations through complex technological transitions, optimize systems for efficiency, and foster a culture of innovation and growth.

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Contact Tim Sweet | Team Work Excellence: 

• Website
• LinkedIn: Tim Sweet
• Instagram
• Linkedin: Team Work Excellence

Contact Dan Löfquist |  Input Consulting: 

• Linkedin: Dan Löfquist

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Transcript:

Dan 00:02

It's very important how you design your system, you basically have very small parts of your system that can connect together to make a feature, for example. So, if you have an order system, you have one little part that deals with a client or the customer, you have one little part that deals with the history of the orders and one little part that deals with what happens when the customer do an order. So, you have to break it down in very small bits, which makes changes much easier.

Tim 00:35

Do you rely on others to set a vision and then get them what they need so that they can achieve something they never would be able to do on their own? Whether or not you formally lead a team. If this sounds like you, then you, my friend, are the definition of a leader. And this show is all about bringing you new insights from real people that you've never been exposed to. So, you can grow and increase your impact on the world and feel more fulfilled while you're doing it. I'm Tim Sweet. Welcome to the Sweet on Leadership Podcast, episode 32. 

Tim 01:09

Welcome back, everybody. Thank you very much for joining us for another edition of Sweet on Leadership. If you haven't joined us yet and this is your first time, we are all about bringing exciting insights from leaders around the world. And they come from very different backgrounds. Today, I have Dan Löfquist in front of me, Dan, thanks very much for joining me. I really appreciate it.

Dan 01:31

Oh, you're welcome. I'm glad to be here.

Tim 01:34

Dan, you are a principal with Input Consulting in Stockholm. That Correct? 

Dan 01:39

That is correct. Yes. 

Tim 01:41

What else would you like people to know about you and where you find yourself professionally?

Dan 01:45

I am a software engineer the base of it. And I've been working with software development, almost 40 years. And I still look this young.

Tim 02:00

We'll make sure that we have a portrait in the show notes. So, go check it out if you're listening over audio. Dan, also comes to us because your partner is our very good friend, Debbie Potts.

Dan 02:15

That's correct.

Tim 02:17

So, if you're wondering what the connection is, there, we are all one big happy family. What really excites me about talking to anybody that deals with complex systems is that that knowledge transfers over into their perceptions of business and organizations and leadership. And it's if you have people like this in your life, I would really encourage you to bring people like Dan into conversations that don't involve just software or IT or anything like that, because they can handle complex relationships and networks. And so Dan, I'm super excited to have you bring your insight into this forum.

Dan 03:01

I’m glad. I hope I can bring some knowledge to you.

Tim 03:04

Well, we've had several conversations now and I am not worried. I have a lot of fun. Before we get going here though, we've got a little tradition that's been evolving here on the podcast. Dan a previous guest will always offer up an out-of-the-blue question to break the ice. And today's question comes from Anna Morgan. Her question for you would be what is one thing that you know, will pay back in the next year, will have immediate benefit within the next year if you were to pull the trigger on it? But you may have been avoiding. Does that sound like anything familiar to you?

Dan 03:47

That's a very good question. Thanks, Anna. We have just moved to the countryside in Sweden, we are living very close to the sea. And obviously, you need a boat. We've been talking about this for a very long time. But something comes up blah, blah, blah, and we procrastinated a lot. So, we finally decided to get the boat. We both know it will benefit us tremendously over the years. Especially, when we have so lovely summers here in Sweden warm and nice. So yeah, it's gonna be it's gonna be great. So, that's the thing.

Tim 04:26

You mentioned something seemed to always get in the way. Why do we think that things? Why do we think that life finds a way to interfere with these obviously, you know, important and beneficial decisions?

Dan 04:42

Oh, that's a good one. Prior to station I guess it is you prioritize sometimes, right and sometimes you do it wrong. Sometimes because it's convenient to go that way or the other way. You don't always do the right thing even though you know it's the right thing to do.

Tim 05:00

Right on, there'll always be another fire to fight. Or there might be a place of safety. That might be suspect. All right, right on, I think this is gonna bode well as we go forward on some of the questions that I've got for you. Of late, Dan, I've noticed that the community on both sides of the pond, we have seen this type of switch, we're at this sort of intersection, when it comes to technology where, in my estimation, years ago, when I would be deployed to help process and change teams, tackle, say, large ERP deployments or big systems deployments, it was always about solidifying these great big systems so that nobody could object to them, and that they were ubiquitous across organizations. And the challenge then, when you tried to make change to them was that they were very difficult to change. But now it's like we're in this almost schizophrenic relationship with technology where things are much more fractured and modular and paces is quickening. So, that's what I'm seeing from the outside and what I see my clients dealing with, do you share that experience? How would you categorize sort of the situation we're in today and what it means for businesses and large institutions and society at large? 

Dan 06:27

Ooh, that's an interesting question. That's pretty much my life, what I'm doing daily. So, if we're going to take some perspective on it, if we look, historically, in the beginning, when I started to work with computers, people had actually white robes in the computer central's, so a lot of things have changed. Computers back then were very complex, big, noisy, and you couldn't do much compared to what you could do today with a computer. To build a system was a complex thing, it took time, it took effort, when you have built it there was there, basically and you couldn’t do much about it. 

Tim 07:04

It was like a big refrigerator or hundreds of refrigerators sitting in the middle of the floor.

Dan 07:09

Oh, yeah, or a big heater. But today, we are facing a different problem, not necessarily problems, but challenges. And that's because the technology has changed so quick and fast. It is a very aggressive to the I don't know really where it's gonna end. But we are all in a transition state, it is never going to end, it's just going to continue to evolve, which means we can make the systems that are more agile and follow the changes in the companies. And so it's going fast now.

Tim 07:58

I've used both PC and Mac. And I think back to in the day, we used to say that we would have risk or sisk-based designs. And my layman's understanding was that Apple followed a, what is it, a complex design a sisk with a C, but it was really more around software, rather than the hardware. The hardware would be robust, and flexible, but software was what was going to make the performance differences versus the, you know, Windows and UNIX environments where they were really much more around technologically dependent, you know, processing speed and these kinds of things. Maybe that's a layman's understanding. I don't know if that's even relevant anymore. But.

Dan 08:44

No, it is still relevant. I mean, if you look at Apple today, they both the hardware and the software, managed to merge them together in a very nice way. It has benefits, go with hardware and software from Apple. Obviously, their hardware is modular and changeable, because the hardware also evolves and things get smaller and easier to change and pgrade. And so yeah, absolutely.

Tim 09:20

I bring this up, because when we had these big server rooms and mainframes and we were installing, as you say, heaters, that people would heat their buildings off their server rooms, the hardware still there, obviously. And it's still complex. And yes, it's getting smaller. And yes, it's getting faster. For many people, it's almost faded into the background. And for my kids, everything is app-based. And this transcends not just to their devices, but even how they approach their lives. They have long-term gratification versus immediate gratification. And, you know, when we're on our phone and we want something to do something, we install an app and now all of a sudden the phone can do this thing. But when it's ourselves, we have to do the work and develop the skill. And there's a much longer runway in order to make something happen. But the general feeling within society now, and not just in technology, but feels like things are immediate, we want them now, we want them to be flipped on. It's a zero to a one, immediately a real digital relationship, and that we lose sight of the gray, the servers in the backroom, you know, everything that goes between our need and satisfaction of that need. And I see that in our kids. But is that something that enters your head, your mind? And do you see that in the client relationship as well?

Dan 10:46

Absolutely, I mean, we all live in a society where you need instant gratification. If you look at the Instagram, all kinds of social media, it's a fix, an instant fix. But there is always backends in all apps, they all big machines in the backroom, doing all the processing for you. But it is challenging because people are getting used to having information at their fingertips, they can pretty much do everything with the phone today. It's no difference. I'm old school that way. I mean, I use phones, to pretty much everything. But some certain tasks, I want the computer, I just need to get into that headspace and just sit and do my thing on the computer. And then I can continue on my phone. I mean, the younger generation, they don't have that problem or that hinder. It's a natural part of their life, they have no luggage when it comes to well, we couldn't do that. Because there was no internet or anything. They don't have that limitation. Yes, it’s there. They expect everything to just work instantly. To get answers instantly, or whatever they need or tasks that need to do. It’s fascinating to see young people today using their phones or devices because they're using it in such a different way than you and me are doing because it's just fascinating to see how humans evolve. If you say, get used to technology in a very easy way, it's very easy to get used to technology because it solves so many problems for us. But we don't have to move that much. Because we just need to lift our hand and the problem is solved. Instead of back in the day, you had to come up and do make a phone call.

Tim 12:47

Go to the library, check the encyclopedia.

Dan 12:53

Yeah, exactly. And that transpires into how companies around today. I mean, there is a difference between old companies and new companies. Old companies, so usually, they have that baggage, so they live throughout generations, while new companies, startups, they start from a fresh start. They start how people are using their devices today and how people are interacting the day. That's different.

Tim 13:19

For sure. When I'm working with startups, and they're young leadership teams, they definitely have more of the millennial bend to them. I remember doing generational work 20 years ago, where we thought the Gen Y were right in behind Gen X was going to eventually wake up and figure out that, you know, there's the real world and then there's the digital world, there's the online world that they would eventually get mortgages and kids and they would become like us. And it was a massive miscalculation. Because they don't think that way. They still don't think that way. In fact, if anything, Gen X Nexus, they've moved towards the Gen Y and even the millennial ways of thinking. And when we see younger workers and the younger generations and their relationship with technology, you and I were raised where technology was separate from us, we had to sit down and engage with it. Although, I don't think this is always true, because my phone is pretty sewn to my hand at this point. It's slowly meshing but for young people, their phone is an integrated part of their personality. It's an integrated part of the body almost, it's a sensory organ in many ways. It's a logic center and a decision center of the brain in many ways, to the point where they're lost without it and it sounds Orwellian. But at the same time, they're finding a healthy relationship with it where we see threat. My son just produced an album. And he did it after he had had a knee injury, and it kept him from dance. And he's relentlessly creative. So, he sat down, and within an hour, he said, Dad, I can't take this sitting around, I'm nervous. I said, Well, what's at the root of it, it was creativity. So, work on your music, he sat down and wrote an album, he just, it just went up on Apple this week and Spotify. And it's going viral, which is really interesting. He did the whole thing from an iPad. You know, I played in lots of bands, we rented studio space, we worked hard and practiced our songs. He's produced an album, and it's good. It's not garbage. It's like it's a first shot. But there's a couple of songs on there that are real bangers, and they're worth it. So when I wanted to support him, I said, Well, what do we need? You know, do we need to get you an interface? And do we need to get you a computer setup? And do we need to get you all of these things, and he's like, Oh, I wouldn't mind a larger surface. But other than that, I'm good. I want it to stay tactile, I want it to stay in this environment that I understand. And he doesn't want the technology to interfere with his creative process at all. He just wants to be able to transmit his vision into something quickly. He's got a quick and dirty style anyway. But get it in there and create and paint on this thing without having to worry about the learning or worry about, you know what I mean? So, he's just working in this intuition, intuitive space. And it's really interesting. And I don't know if I would have been the same way. I don't know.

Dan 16:46

I don’t know. It's like cutting out the middle hand, which is technology. And they go directly to being creative and stuff because they have the right tool for it. The hardware and the software is there today to be able to do these things, which releases people from dealing with the technology because that's always been taught. And it's complex. And it takes time to learn. And, as you said, interface, and cables, and blah, blah, blah, keyboards and all that is all there. And as he rightfully stated, It needs more screen mistakes, to do more things. 

Tim 17:23

Well, at one point, he's got this creative vision and this intense sense of control on the outcome. But the flip side, it's like he doesn't need physical or tactile control, he doesn't need, in fact he's very flexible. If something's not working, he just turns on a dime. And so my next question for you is around, in your work, and when you see organizations or leaders with their relationship with technology, what is the sense of control that you see various people crave or try to exert? And does that vary depending on their relationship with their technology? Or perhaps their generation? What's the need for control? And how does that show up?

Dan 18:09

Oh, that can show up in so many different ways. But mostly is based on age, it tells this like that older generations are bound to a certain technology. And they know that technology very well. And they don't want to move away from it, or they feel comfortable in doing what they do in their bubble, if you like. That's the control need, because they need to be able to control what they're doing. That's how they are brought up. They, that's what the school taught them. And that's how early work life taught them how to be. And so it's hard to break out and think outside the box that you are in that compartment. But there are obviously, people that managed to balance between both worlds. Those are the gems, those are the ones you need to take care of, in an organization. The younger generation that has no problem whatsoever to try, new things or not scared of failing, or because it's part of the process. Because if you find something that doesn't work, then you throw it out and try something else that does work.

Tim 19:24

Right, whether it's their attention span or just the speed at which these things happen. They don't live in failure very long. They don't know. They don't let it attach to them. They don't–

Dan 19:35

I don't think they see failure as a failure. They see failure as a way of learning and move forward.

Tim 19:46

Problem solve. Well, I'm going to start squeezing your brain for some precise thoughts here as you're saying that the younger generation doesn't have an issue with change or with control as much. Immediately the words that jumped to my part yeah, except for they've got an issue with the older generation sometimes and vice versa. So, when you see these gems, the ones that are able to either older or younger, bridge this gap, what is the skill or mindset that an older leader needs to have present in order to, that you have witnessed, what were what would be some of those attributes that allow them to function well, in this new, more flexible world?

Dan 20:27

I think you need to be open-minded in that sense that you need to allow people to do their work at their best ability, as they know themselves can do it the best. It's very hard for someone to tell someone, you need to do it in this certain way. We need it to be done in those certain terms of jobs. That doesn't work anymore. While it does work but it's starting to change. Yeah, I would open mind. It's probably the biggest skill you need.

Tim 21:06

So, to clarify a little bit. Would you say that that would be like being open-minded about how it gets done? You know, years ago, when we were doing process focus versus task focus, we would encourage the leaders to say be outcome-focused, like, what is the outcome you're looking for, the quality you're looking for? That should come first before we talk about how we're going to get there. Strategy and outcome before structure and process, right? So, for the older generation to be open-minded and a little less offended by new ideas of how to do things, maybe.

Dan 21:44

Yeah, that's the trick. 

Tim 21:47

It is. Well, it's even with parents, right? What bothers us with children, and new ideas, new ways of doing things is it offends our sense of order in the world. And we take it as an offence because that's not the way things work. Who says you've got a monopoly on the way things work? Right? 

Dan 22:09

Yeah, exactly. When you build systems, just going back to systems, when you build systems back in the day, you started to build a system. And you said, Okay, this system is going to do X, Y, Zed. And then even if the requirements were changing over the process of, I don't know, five years it took to build the system. That was kind of the standard back then. And even if the requirements changes, they were so complex that they couldn't change it. So, when they eventually was released, it still was not exactly what they wanted anyway, so it was a way of time. But now you can change during the project. And it's very common that you do, you start up, okay, we're going to reach this goal. But halfway through, no we're going to change and we're going to pivot to that. You can do that now, with people and technology, which is great, very rewarding to work in projects like that. 

Tim 23:08

Do you think that modularization in a sense, is part of that where it’s, if the outcome changes mid-project, it's much more granular like we can talk about not having to change this big end to end, interdependent system that we can't remove part Q without, you know, screwing up part P, and things can just be swapped out a lot easier? One solution for another? It almost feels like without even realizing it. Everything now is almost an app approach. And as you're talking here, I'm thinking about now. And the next question I was gonna ask you is, what mindset does the younger leader, the more modern thinker need to keep in mind in order to play nice and get the best out of the older leader? Or the older colleague, or worker?

Dan 24:03

Yeah, that's a good one as well. That's very person-dependent. Because as we talked about earlier, it's can be a little bit friction between the generations. I mean, in the same way, the younger leaders is that a little bit of understanding. Also, the older people have a lot of experience, a lot of experience and they know what to do and what not to do. Take advantage of that. They're also trying to wean them into a new way of thinking. Don't surprise them with it, but just ease them into it. From my experience, it works quite well.

Tim 24:51

Yeah, I think if we can, when you say know what to do and what not to do, older workers and more experienced workers, thought leaders, managers, whatnot, they have a deeper understanding of the potential risks and threats that are out there, you know, threats that we need to mitigate opportunities that we need to exploit. If we can decouple the how, from all of this, that seems to be, again, where people are getting stuck is in that control space, that how are you going to go do that, within reason, I mean, there still has to be order. So, to bring us up to speed here, we've got, we're in this period of great robust change, we've got rules that have been altered, we have a new way of working, we have a new way of thinking, we have a new relationship with technology. And as such, we've got new risks that come up, when we try to exert too much control, or we're too resistant to change, we talked about the younger generation being not as scared of failing, not having the same relationship with failure, and seeing it as much more of a stepping stone or something that was temporary versus defining. Although, in my experience, I see sometimes that is a source of conflict. To what degree is your shame sticking, some leaders are very unnerved when a person doesn't feel deep and lasting shame or guilt. And it's not a real positive thing. So, and we talked about the mindset that needs to go into this. How harmful and how costly can a lack of this confidence and ability to connect in an organization ve when you're trying to guide somebody through rapid change or needed change?

Dan 26:58

It's sometimes it's problematic because a big organization is just not one person is many departments and usually when you are running a project, you need to speak to a lot of departments, some departments are more pro-change, there's some not and it can be quite harmful for the company as a whole when very simple thing can't be solved because of people are not playing ball basically. That is a tricky situation to end up being. I've been in that kind of situation many times. And it takes a lot of communication, a lot of meetings and explanations, but eventually, you kind of reach a compromise. It's all about compromises, really.

Tim 28:00

When we see that behaviour of having to have meetings in order for people to get comfortable. And I do a lot of work in higher Ed and they refer to the collegial mindset and these kinds of things. It's working out the risks and making sure that everybody's heard and that degree of comfort. And I remember, you had said something in a previous conversation to me that really stuck. In my world, a phrase that I use is all change means loss, right? Change means losing something, saying goodbye to something, something dying. And you had said that, that loss at times can be the the feeling of expertise. And so if I'm thinking about departments or silos in an organization where one doesn't want to change and the other is ready, there's usually something in that silo that they're losing control of, or they're losing expertise over. Can you talk a little bit about that, about the idea of our relationship with our own expertise and how we can be flexible with that?

Dan 29:14

Yeah. You have to have an open mindset because things are gonna change whether you like it or not like it, you can't control it, you can't do anything about it. So, the best thing you can do is to embrace change. It is daunting, and it's scary to do that because you let go of something and you let go of some control. But on the other hand, you can gain control from something else instead. That's how I see closes. That's how I tried to be myself. I mean, I can't stick to old things that doesn't work. It doesn't make me happy and I can't do my job properly. So, I need to adjust and to learn new things, new processes, new techniques or whatnot. In order to move forward, I think you have to have that mindset. And also, it's good for you. Because if you are in your comfort zone, nothing fun or exciting is going to happen, every day is going to look the same. In order to have some kind of excitement in your life, or in your workplace, or anywhere, you need to step out of that comfort zone, because the amazing things happen outside. But it's a scary place, but it's very rewarding if you're there.

Tim 30:42

Yeah, there's, I remember years ago, that whole idea of letting go. And at the same time, I remember when I decided to really get real about what I can control and what I can control. That was it's a liberating thing. But I would ask you to take us back into the archives here, Dan, as you were developing, 40 years of experience, there would have been, I would imagine, there would have been a time where at least you realized this happened. Or maybe it was a specific event, where this idea of gaining control by giving up control so that you could find that authenticity, so that you could struggle less with trying to move things that you couldn't, can you take us back into your history and give us a bit of an anecdote of when that happened to a younger Dan.

Dan 31:36

A younger Dan. Well, it happens all the time, daily with me. I think I was working at a big bank in Sweden. I was stuck in between mainframes, the old water-cooled mainframes and the new pieces that just came out from IBM. So, I remember transitioning into doing more work with PC because I thought that's more, it seems to solve problems easier than to have to deal with the mainframe. So, that was, I think that was the big work-related shift of losing control that I can remember. Yeah, I was right.

Tim 32:18

And just being really comfortable with what you didn't learn in school, in a way, right?

Dan 32:22

Yeah, exactly. That's the same thing because you learn one thing in school and when you graduate, it's old ready?

Tim 32:31

Yeah. So, fixing one's expertise to a certain how of doing things might be, and I’m reflecting on my own space. Now, I mean, my success is because I bring a deep toolbox and lots of experience, but I never get married to the how we're going to do something. This is a little different in the consulting space. But you know, like, just in the last two years, I would meet with clients, I can put together a pretty good agenda. You know, I know how to structure an agenda. I used to teach, you know, meeting skills. And well, there's a reason why we have a very structured rigid agenda. So, I'm very good at this. And then I realized that when I'm working with these executive teams in these complex issues, or I'm working with a team that's under crisis, or are a leader that I need to be listening to, if I start with my agenda, I'm in a way impeded, and I'm done. Because until I get in the room, and I do a lot of prework, but until I get into the room, I don't know exactly what's going to happen. So, I have to be able to spin on a dime. And so, man, I didn't think I was gonna go here. But I literally had conversations with clients where I was like, they would be like, where's the agenda, and I'm like, I don't use an agenda anymore. I have a series of outcomes that we are going to strive for, and that I'm going to promise. But if I told you, I knew what minute of the two days, we're going to be working on a certain thing, and that we're definitely going to use that tool. And that's the thing we're going to be using. I would be lying to you. And I mean, because I have too often started down the road and within the first 10 minutes, the agenda is out the window, then what do you do? And so I abandoned that sense of control early on. That relationship with how we define our expertise then around being enough and trusting ourselves that we're going to be able to, you know, forward into the unknown. It's something that the older generation has to redefine in many ways and the younger generation seems to be doing literally out of hand, right? Just–

Dan 34:50

Yeah, no real different ways to approach things in life. I mean, for me as a consultant, I have the experience. I've been working for a long time in both banks, finances and being in the travel industry, all that knowledge that I have accumulated throughout the years with travel, for example, that's the business learning, that I know their business inside and out. And I can apply that to whatever technology there is. That is we're going to use to solve a problem today. So, that never goes away. I still have that knowledge with me. But I can adapt that into whatever technology is being used. That's keeping the best of both worlds. That's why it's so important for the younger people to tap into that knowledge in the older people.

Tim 35:46

Well, that's why we as Gen X can say, with a great deal of or great lack of humility, we're the best generation there's ever going to be. Yeah, because we're on. I don't think that's going to hold true. But anyway, I think it's interesting, though, and especially when we turn this towards the needs of many of my listeners, which are going to be struggles around hiring and retention, struggles around that we have a different level of willing capacity or discretionary performance that showing up in the workplace right now. And also, we've always talked about for years now, we've talked about entitlement and things like this with younger workers. But this is all fitting together for me in the sense that the older workers right now, the older generation in the professional areas, was the importance of the resume and all of the experience that they're bringing into it. And of course, that is practically important. I'm not disputing that. But we have younger workers that come in, and they don't think they're being in many cases, they don't put the same weight into their experience. They feel you're hiring them, they feel you're hiring their potential, they feel you're hiring, they're whether you think of it as confidence, or whatever it is, but you're hiring them or hiring the person, not the resume. And so there's a great deal of confusion when you sort of say, well, you need to cut your teeth or a statement like that, what you need to do, you know, you need to pay your dues and spend your time. And I wouldn't say that it's outside their thinking, they know what it means and it's not a problem with them. It's that the answer is somewhere in between. Because what we want them to learn today, depending on the role, could potentially be obsolete tomorrow. And so we need that speed of learning. We need that ability to be nimble, and to be responsive. And actually, here's maybe not the most politically correct way to think about younger employees. But what would happen, and this is me musing now, what would happen if we treated the employee more like the app we need to put on our phone and say, or even we use that language with them? Your role is like an app that we need to install, and we need it to do certain things. Perhaps we could get a different level of independent work slash relationship with the work. I never thought I’d go down that path, but it's definitely, do they think of themselves in the app, right? 

Dan 38:37

Yeah, no, I mean, as a consultant, you are the hired short-term.

Tim 38:44

Oh, yeah, Ronald Gun. 

Dan 38:38

So, you’re an app, unless you're doing a very good job and stay wherever the company happens, yeah, you are an app, basically, because the employee needs help with a certain task, bringing that expertise and do the thing and teach the other employees and then leave.

Tim 39:07

Okay, so this now we're at a really interesting point, because you and I have the bias in this room right now that we're both in a sense, you know, keep what you kill, run and gun consultants in the sense that, we go in and we help people with no long term expectations to be holding them hostage, or around for a long time, we're there to fix problems. And hopefully, they call us back when they've got the next problem. Right? But we make our name based on our results and on the relationships we keep. This is a small portion of the population that is able to function in this way. I would say we have sort of a Buddhist philosophy in employment, Buddhists is the wrong way to go. But it's temporary. It's a Mandela, right? We know it's going to change. It's meant to be swept away. My experience with the working layer in professionals, the bulk of the population does not feel really comfortable with that level of open risk. Right? Yeah, absolutely. How does that stability translate for the older and the younger generations? And I think it's really, it's a question that's worth asking. And I think I'm inspired by you to go and ask it.

Dan 40:25

Yeah, no, as I said before, we're older, well for us. The good CV meant everything that was the most important that was the paper that you meant something, I've done this, I can use this paper to get a job or that I mattered that I accomplished things. For the younger generation doesn't matter. Because they just want to work with fun things and get paid. And also we were bound to stay with the same employee for years. Because you did that, you didn't job hope in any shape or form, because that was looked down on. Someone changed job within two years that, oo what’s wrong with that person? And now it's the opposite. Why have you worked with that employee for 10 years, you’re weird. 

Tim 41:27

That’s true, it went through a period of the late '90s-2000s, into the 2010s. Well into now, where, you know, people were highly, highly transient when it went into work. And that was the way to get a promotion, you went out and you hunted a promotion through changing your jobs, if you're a professional. You're going to climb through jobs switch. What's interesting, and I think this is really cutting edge now is that for businesses that find that feeling of comfort, and able to keep the employees working on fun things and keep them challenged, and let them suddenly develop that backlog of skills and familiarity, and have a real social experience, there is a greater desire now than I've seen in my 25 years of working in this space. I believe the needle is starting to switch back over to I want to find a long-term, perhaps role for life. I want it to be part of me. And I don't want it to be something that I need to, I know it's going to develop, but I want it to always be there and I want it to be, it's kind of like your contract with your phone company, as long as it's working. And you get a new phone, a new office every once in a while, you get new apps, new roles and challenges every once in a while. I'm good. Yeah, I can focus on other stuff, bigger questions, things that matter. There's different questions. I mean, younger generation workers that I see, that I'm coaching, they care as much about what social initiatives and social values, the CEO demonstrates, or the company is willing to challenge as they do what their mission is, in the world. This isn't true for everybody. But it's true for a lot of people they are looking deeper at, they don't want to associate with a business that treats them as disposable. There's a real attraction to that, that place of being and that they can say it with pride, and that they don't have to worry that the reputation of the business is going to rub off on them if it's stink, right? They don't want to be associated with that. I see much healthier relationships with this and Europe and Canada, and parts of Southeast Asia and Australasia than I do in the States. In the States, I see we're going through a dehumanization in some ways, right? 

Dan 44:08

It's brutal. 

Tim 44:10

It is, it’s absolutely brutal.

Dan 44:15

It is brutal. Just a short run, but I've seen also is that the older generation tends to stick around longer obviously. Because it's a sense of security for the younger generations to hop around a little bit more. But there's a risk to that because all the companies who lose intellectual value because their brains are disappearing, so they need to find a way to keep the knowledge in the company, but at the same time provide all the flexibility, all the good stuff. 

Tim 45:00

Yeah, intellectual capital has to be put on the balance sheet. Reputational capital needs to be put on the ballot. 

Dan 45:10

Yeah, yeah. When we, I mean, older generation, we are more important than your free time. And now that change sort of your free time is more important than your work. So, it's all those aspects as well.

Tim 45:26

In training one group of executives I was working with a couple of months ago, I was talking to them about learned helplessness. And that your employees when you hire them all in many ways, you're never more optimistic about what they can provide, because guess what you've only known them for practically three hours through the interview process, and you've seen their resume, and you've got all sorts of imaginings about what they're going to be capable of. And then the real world hits, and they've got good things, and they've got bad things. And sometimes you're more impressed than disappointed, sometimes you're disappointed than impressed. You begin to judge and classify what this person is capable of, in the course of real work. And if it's not managed properly, you can begin to really instill a great deal of, again, shame, guilt, whatever you want to call it, you can start to let the new employee know when you're disappointed when they’ve failed. And if you do this improperly, and they get confused about what they're actually still in control of, they can stop trying, because they don't know what's going to make you happy, or they don't know what's going to have what's considered winning anymore. And so they get paralyzed because there's no winning, they don't know what the rules of the game are. It was never explained properly, or we didn't connect on it. What is really interesting when we think about the older generation is how much we actually relied on for lack of a better term. And I'm sure I'm going to be raked for saying this. But how much we relied on learned helplessness. We were helpless to affect whether or not we needed to be in the office working. We were helpless to alter sort of the the level of negotiation and how we would go about applying for a job. We were helpless to initiate a human rights complaint or something like that if something happened. I mean, I wasn't prone to it. But man, I worked in some industries, specifically in kitchens, where they still wouldn't pass muster when it comes to how people are supposed to be treated. I mean, it's just way too aggressive. Right? So, helping these new dynamic multigenerational workplaces, dealing with this pace of change and all the new opportunities it brings, as well as the expertise and all the lessons we've learned and all the organizational knowledge that we've captured. Man, I love the work I do. It is so complex, which again is why I love talking to a guy like you because complexity is your is your stock and trade. Right?

Dan 48:07

Yeah, no, I love it. Just the fact that it's changing so much all the time, and you have to adapt to people and you have to adapt to technology and systems. Talk to people to bring everything together. That's what's kept me going, daily basically. 

Tim 48:26

Let me ask you a question. Now I'm gonna want to break this down to some practical advice for leaders. I'm gonna take a risk here, we may have to cut it out. If you think about a large system that you're installing, or augmenting for a client, and they can be end-to-end? Am I? 

Dan 48:45

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, it can be. 

Tim 48:50

In order for that system to be designed for improvement, what are three-four attributes that you need to keep in mind when you're designing that IT landscape? What are some design characteristics that allows it to be nimble and change?

Dan 49:09

Well, first of all, you need to build a modularization, modularize. Oh, that's a hard word to say.

Tim 49:15

Modularization. Yeah, modular, it’s got to be modular.

Dan 49:20

And also the, it's very important how you design your system. You basically have very small parts of your system that can connect together to make a feature, for example. So, if you have an order system, you have one little part that deals with the client or the customer, you have one little part in that that deals with the history of the orders and one little part that deals with what happens when the customer do an order so you have to break it down in very small bits. Which makes changes much easier. It is not gonna be super simple anyway, but it's going to be much easier to deal with, you don't have to change your whole system, you have to change parts.

Tim 50:10

So, the idea that you can change part of it, and that is modular from design, and that you understand what the different bits are for and what they do. And that they are specialized in a sense. Leep those three things is as paramount, everything will be a little bit easier, much easier. In fact, we do the wrong thing, it becomes static, that becomes the brick of a mainframe that we have to, you know, tear right down to its nuts, if we're going to change anything.

Dan 50:41

Well, there are huge breaks in maps as well. So, it's hard to do. 

Tim 50:47

All right. Now, here's where my instinct is leading to me, leading me to, if we translate that thinking into how a person approaches their leadership style, then maybe the running of their team, let's just start with the knowledge of self, the fluency of self. If I take a modular approach, to my sense of self, if I think of myself as not one big thing, but a bunch of little things, how would that affect my ability to change and adapt?

Dan 51:25

I think you need to be flexible as a person, and you need to learn how to accept new things, and you need to be able to process new things and see if this is a good thing, or if it's gonna hinder me, or if it’s gonna reward me, or if it's gonna make my life easier. So, you need to change that. Also, when you're working with people, you have to delegate, that's the most important thing, when you work as a leader. Because you don't know everything, there is always people that know things much better than you and use them. Because then you can change, basically, because you have people working for you that know things very well.

Tim 52:19

I think I get where you're going here. And when I think of that modular aspect, it parallels to changing a part of what you're doing, or one of your thoughts or one of the ways you conceptualize things, or even that what you were an expert now is now obsolete, and you have to lean on other things, that modular approach means that we can protect, well not protect but it doesn't alter our sense of self. It doesn't threaten the whole, it's just a part. It's just a thing, right? And then when you said about delegating, and I think about that, the bits that all do different things. One of the first moves that I make with teams or with leaders or executives working on their career, is that they understand all the different roles in which they show up in, and that there's a certain function they have in this group that they don't have in this group. So, how are you entering the meeting? Do you know what your your role is? When this employee comes to you, do you know what they're asking you to be? Are they asking you to be the critic of their work? Or do they need somebody that helps you sort out a confidence issue? What role are you filling? What bit are you accessing right now? So, Dan, I'd like to ask you, if you were to focus on some of the most actionable advice that you would offer to leaders, what would be the things that you would say that have to be at the forefront of their mind?

Dan 53:58

I think the most important thing is to be transparent. Be able to communicate and to listen, because you're dealing with people, and there is not one person that it's the same as the other one. Everybody has different needs. Everybody wants different things. Everyone has different personal lives, which affects their work life. So, you need to be able to communicate. I think a big thing is to be transparent and to listen.

Tim 54:28

And if we fail to do that, we're treating that person like they are just a mindless cog. And they’ll be disappointed.  

Dan 54:38

Yeah, because they're human beings. A human being is happy then they will produce.

Tim 54:47

Should we have hope for how technology is changing and what it's going to allow us to become as a species, as a planet?

Dan 55:00

Hmm, philosophical. The software, I think people–

Tim 55:01

Guilty, guilty. 

Dan 55:03

I think people will evolve together with technology, we are kind of staring our own destiny in that sense, because we are making technology do things for us as a human species. We are lazy by nature, we have these machines that do things for us. So yeah, of course, we're going to move towards that. We are always in a transition state, there is no finite state, this is nothing more it's going to happen, it's always going to happen. We always going to have these generational clashes like we have with the younger, they will have kids and they will suffer the same thing. When they get older, their kids will evolve in things where in ways that we can't even imagine. So, I think there's a constant evolution.

Tim 56:00

Well, Dan, you've really opened my eyes to a number of things here. And I love that we're at the place we're at. We talked, some of the big things that I'm going to take away from this is that idea of being able to stay in that state of creativity, and that letting go and knowing that things are shifting constantly. And that they're not just shifting for us, but they're shifting for everyone. And that when we approach others to understand, you know, be transparent, perhaps vulnerable, listen, and be empathetic. And really communicate clearly to try to cut out as much of the error as possible. Because everybody's in this change with us. And they're all changing in their own ways. And we need to focus on giving up that sense of control over the how necessarily, unless we've got things to add, so that we can embrace who we are and focus on our own happiness, and then the realization that everybody else deserves the same thing. They deserve to find themselves and be happy in that. 

Dan 57:25

Absolutely. Yeah. 

Tim 57:25

So, in that sense, I mean, technology can really open up, perhaps a greater level of humanity. Because it'll take us farther away from this industrialized kind of mindset. 

Dan 57:25

Yeah, I hope so. We'll see. 

Tim 57:30

All right. Well, here, let's go through some of the final thoughts here. If a person wants to engage with you, and consider their own technological journey, or just reach out, where's the best place for them to link up with you?

Dan 57:47

That would be email or LinkedIn.

Tim 57:51

Okay. So, we'll put both of your contact spots there. If I was to ask you, maybe it's the boat, maybe it's something else. But what do you have going on perhaps professionally, or in your life that you're really excited about? And that you would want people to be aware of that you're, you know, the circles that you're moving in professionally, or the efforts that you're expending? What are some things that you're excited about? 

Dan 58:19

Oh, what am I excited about? I'm working on a big system right now. We are not gonna transition a very old system. That is all we're talking ourself into new technology new. I can't say what the client is, because it's, but that's gonna be really exciting to be part of and work with. That's a huge job.

Tim 58:46

And helping people know that it's possible.

Dan 58:50

Yeah and also, it's a great realization of the client that they need to do it. They can't just bound virtues their old system.

Tim 59:01

You know, it's funny, because when we think about organizational change, especially cultural change, people have to come to terms with that systems and processes and policies that were designed under certain mindsets, actually solidify and calcify that behavior in the organization. And sometimes if you're going to go through this real meaningful change, you got to admit that stuff.

Dan 59:31

Yeah, yeah you have to. Could be a time when people are at ready, when the companies are ready to do it then we can do it. You can't force a change like this. That's just how it is.

Tim 59:42

We don't want to force it. But oh, wow, I imagine that it's when they're ready, it's a heck of a lot easier than if you're pushing rope. What is one wish that you want every listener to leave this conversation with? What do you hope for everybody that's listening?

Dan 59:59

I wish people, all people in general to be a little bit more transparent and listen more to people around you. Because people are amazing. And you can learn a lot from them.

Tim 1:00:14

Yeah, that's great. Last order of business. 

Dan 1:00:15

Last order of business.

Dan 1:00:17

Yeah, last order of business for the next guest on Sweet on Leadership. Put them on the hot seat. What's a question you would want them to answer to get us going to break the ice that you are really curious about?

Dan 1:00:35

What you know, now, would you change anything when you graduated school? If you could turn back time?

Tim 1:00:43

If you could turn back time, what would you say to your younger self? Change when you graduated school? Okay. All right. Dan Löfquist, thank you so much for joining me today. I really appreciate it. I'm so glad I got to spend this time with you and learn a little bit more about you and connect on this level. And I'm really happy. I'm really happy that I can bring this expertise all the way from the sticks in Sweden, to everybody that's going to be listening around the world. So thank you so much.

Dan 1:01:18

My pleasure. My pleasure, Tim.

Tim 1:01:20

Take good care and enjoy that boat.

Dan 1:01:23

I will, I will.

Tim 1:01:30

Thank you so much for listening to Sweet on Leadership. If you found today's podcast valuable, consider visiting our website and signing up for the companion newsletter. You can find the link in the show notes. If like us, you think it's important to bring new ideas and skills into the practice of leadership. Please give us a positive rating and review on Apple Podcasts. This helps us spread the word to other committed leaders. And you can spread the word too by sharing this with your friends, teams and colleagues. Thanks again for listening. And be sure to tune in in two weeks time for another episode of Sweet on Leadership. In the meantime, I'm your host, Tim Sweet, encouraging you to keep on leading.