In this episode, Tim Sweet is joined once again by his cousin, Dave Sweet, an experienced investigator with a background in law enforcement. Dave is known for his expertise in conducting interviews and uncovering the truth. His passion lies in bridging the gap between investigative practices and leadership in various fields. If you're interested in leadership, fairness, and decision-making, this episode offers valuable insights and practical wisdom.

Tim and Dave also discuss the motives and instincts that leaders and investigators may have, which can lead to unintended consequences. Dave emphasizes the importance of trust in leadership and the role leaders play in creating a fair and accountable environment. They delve into the concept of individuals weighing risks and rewards in their decision-making processes and how this applies to both leadership and investigation. Dave also shares his perspective on the justice system and the value of due process in a democratic society. 

About Dave Sweet

Dave Sweet is an experienced investigator with a background in law enforcement. With a wealth of knowledge in conducting interviews and uncovering truth, he brings unique insights into decision-making, fairness, and communication. Dave is passionate about sharing his expertise through consultation and workshops, and he aims to bridge the gap between investigative practices and leadership in various fields.

Resources discussed in this episode:

• ”Question Behind the Question” by John G. Miller

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Contact Tim Sweet | Team Work Excellence: 

• Website
• LinkedIn: Tim Sweet
• Instagram
• Linkedin: Team Work Excellence

Contact Dave Sweet | Unconventional Classroom: 

• Website: unconventionalclassroom.ca
• Facebook: UnconventionalClassroom
• Email: [email protected]

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Transcript

Dave  0:02  

As a leader in a workplace, the only thing I can imagine is that your track record and your fairness or your inability to be fair–

Tim  0:14

yeah, your reputation will precede you, your brand will precede you.

Dave  0:17

It 100% will.

Tim  0:22  

I'd like to ask you some questions. Do you consider yourself the kind of person that gets things done? Are you able to take a vision and transform that into action? Are you able to align others towards that vision and get them moving to create something truly remarkable? If any of these describe you, then you my friend, are a leader, and this show is all about and all for you. Welcome to the Sweet on Leadership podcast. 

Tim  0:55  

Dave, thanks again for joining me, our last conversation was so much fun. I think that we really got the jitters out. So, I noticed towards the end of it, we're really slipping into more what I feel with you and we're just sitting down and having a coffee. I love when we get this kind of tempo. 

Dave  1:14

Yeah, no, I agree. It's been good.

Tim  1:17  

What do you see as being, perhaps, from direct experience or witnessing others going through this? What are some of the motives or instincts that a leader or in your case an investigator may have that has unintended consequences? Are there moments? Are there things that can cause somebody to clam up and say nothing? 

Dave  1:40

Well, if the fear is so overwhelming, so let's talk about bad guys, right? So, bad guys have one more stake at the table, then maybe a witness does or a victim does, right? And that is jail. So, if the fear of jail, for life, is greater than or more overwhelming, then your ability as an interviewer, for example, to show them that jail isn't as scary as what they might think that will force somebody to never get to the place that you need them to be. You know, if the bad guy's biggest concern, in an interview, and he tells you, I mean, people tell you what they want to hear, you know, you just have to listen. So, I've always believed that if you listen, somebody's going to tell you what they want you to sort of tell them back. Like a really benign example is if you would, if you were an appliance salesman, and somebody came into your appliance store and said, I need a new dishwasher, this is the third one I've had in the last five years, I'm switching brands, I can't deal with this brand anymore. They're terrible, their service is terrible, I can't find anybody to get parts for this washing machine or dishwasher, whatever–

Tim  3:00

You've just given them everything that they need to tell you what they–

Dave  3:05  

Right, so then all you have to talk about is you know, the warranty and the dependability of the next dishwasher, they're going to purchase. People tell you what they want you to repeat back to them. And so when a bad guy, if his concern is more about how he's going to be perceived in the community, or how this is going to affect his reputation or her reputation, they will inevitably, they're easier people to get them to sort of start to tell their side of the story, essentially, because that's their motivation. Their motivation is to be the guy that made the mistake versus be the monster. 

Tim  3:47

There's two parallels that I'm thinking about in my line of work and with business leaders and founders. You know, one is that if you, in my own work, if you don't put down a foundation of trust that the person is not going to lose their job, or something like this before you ask them to tell you what is really on their mind, you'll never have them say anything. And often if they don't trust the boss before you can even start to have a conversation. In my line of work, I come in as an intervening factor because I can establish trust, I don't have a trust break with them yet, and get them talking. Whereas, until we understand what the issue is, the boss doesn't have a hope in rebuilding trust. And so that's one thing. And then the other one is around dealing with founders and startups when they're confused why their whole life is tied up in an organization but their employees don't care as much as they do about the job, about the business and the founder, everything is at stake. And so they're willing to go to the ends of the earth to make that business float. For everyone else, the stakes are not nearly as even. And if it's between, you know, protecting one's sanity and work-life balance, or, you know, this is a job to them is what I'm trying to say versus it's, you know, your entire lifestyle. So, that whole idea of, they're doing the math, you know, they're deciding what is the bigger risk, and we don't have to look very far for this example. You know, the other day, there was a box of cookies in the morning, and by the afternoon, it was empty. And I said, who ate the cookies? And do you think anybody fessed up? No, because the result of what I was going to say to them was far less attractive than any upside that they could visualize, in the same way that saying, you know, don't eat the cookie. When you say that to young kids, they will do the math, they'll say, Huh, is the potential that my dad's gonna come up to me and say, I'm really disappointed in you for eating that cookie? Or is that greater or smaller than the joy you're gonna derive in the moment from eating that cookie? Well, most children will opt for the answer that has chocolate chips. So, you know, it's, we're pretty basic in this way. I think, you know, as apes, you know.

Dave 6:20

The cookie example is exactly the same scenario that we deal with all the time. Right? When it comes to, again, it's people are doing the math. You know, we always get people, I like to think that I give a person an out, right? They will always take the easier thing. You know if I say, are you a monster, or a guy that made a big mistake? Most people are going to take the mistake over being a monster, right? They would rather be the guy that made a big mistake, and then have the excuses kind of fall into line of why they're a guy that made a big mistake. You know, as a leader in a workplace, the only thing I can imagine is that your track record and your fairness, or your inability to be fair–

Tim  7:08

Yeah, your reputation will precede you, your brand will precede you. 

Dave  7:11

It 100% will. Sometimes when things aren't working out the way we want them to work out. Like, for example, we have employees that are constantly being late for the meeting, or they're not getting into work on time, or whatever it might be, or we're not getting the project completed on time, we're very quick to always point to that individual and say, you know, you're not getting to these meetings on time, or you're not getting to work on time, whatever it is, right? Instead of actually looking at ourselves and wondering whether or not our systems and our processes are contributing to that. For so, for example, if I'm the boss, and it's one o'clock in the afternoon, or it's over the lunch hour, noon, or 12:30. And I sent out a meeting invite for two o'clock, if somebody had to rearrange their schedule, or had to, you know, was backed up against another meeting, but they don't want to say no to the meeting itself, that might be a reason for why they showed up. And instead of like, looking at ourselves and going, well, you know what, maybe I should be planning these things out a little bit better, right? And you'll see that regularly, I think in all jobs spaces, including my own, when things go awry, there's usually some sort of a breakdown in the system itself, communication, accountability, you know, leadership, there's a breakdown somewhere there. And it's not always on the person that's made the mistake. Right? So, I think if we have an awareness of that, I think that could actually help us in sort of being fair in our judgments of individuals who we're working with. 

Tim  8:52 

Yeah, I really like that. I think that's a great point. And John G. Miller wrote a book called Question Behind the Question. And the first layer question was, why are they late? Why didn't they show up on time? Or why couldn't they take the shift? Them, them, them, attribution bias. They've got a flaw in their character, versus we who would never be late on purpose. It would be environmental, it would be situational, right? But he says the first question is, why are they doing the wrong thing? But the question behind the question is, what am I doing that's making that result more or less likely? And so diving in and saying, am I upholding a system that isn't working? Am I introducing variables that aren't helpful? 

Dave  9:37

Why are my employees not talking to me? Why are they not coming to me with their concerns? Right? If you're a red-in-the-face boss who's always constantly heard throwing stuff against the walls in your office–

Tim  9:49 

Throwing tantrums, yeah. 

Dave  9:51

–that's why. So.

Tim  9:53

Yeah, now they've done the math again, they will–

Dave  9:55

They’ve done the math. Yeah. 

Tim  9:5

So, I mean, from that perspective, I think there's got to be a piece around if people are going to engage in the justice system, do they, by and large, understand and trust the system? Or do they see it to be something that's corrupt and ultimately will deliver an unfair result or something like that? 

Dave  10:20

Both are the two attitudes, I don't know, and there might be one in the middle. You know, sometimes it's fair, sometimes it's not. No, it's not. And, you know, the verbiage has changed a little over the years. You know, they refer to it more as a legal system now and less about a justice system. It's certainly not perfect, but it's not the worst in the world, either. One of the great things, and something I always think about is, is that our system is set up so that people like Dave Sweet, can't just throw Joe Smith in jail for what I perceive to be something illegal, and then not provide them any kind of due process or any of those kinds of things. We still have a legal system that allows people to have an opportunity to tell their side of the story. There's some due process, sometimes you know, what, on one side, it doesn't look like it's fair. But on the other side, it seems, you know, it worked out well for that individual. Right? But we had a number of people I mean, our grandfathers and great grandfathers fought for this right to have a democratic system that would be free, and that we could, you know, question. And it's not just the government or the state saying it's going to be this way, there are lots of countries in this world that aren't that way. And so when we think of our legal system, I'm certainly happy that we have the system we have versus what it could be in another place. You know, and that was a freedom that was fought for with lives and something that we still enjoy today.

Tim  12:00  

I think that's a great place for us to wrap up our conversation. I just want to say, you know, congratulations on the book, of course. And I understand there's going to be a re-release. So, I think that's an important thing to note. And maybe you can tell us if people want to get in touch with you, where can they find you? And what's most exciting on the horizon for you? 

Dave  12:25

Yeah, so I mean, I'm in the twilight of my career. I actually, it won't be more than a few months, and I will be out trying to be my own founder and leave the security of a government job to pursue something different, which will be consultation, investigation services. I'm very excited about some of the workshops and some of the training opportunities I'm hoping to be able to provide to corporate Calgary and also individuals and organizations across the city. And then yeah, we'll continue to work on the books. I can be found right now I'm on Facebook, you can find me just at the Unconventional Classroom. If you like my page, certainly I'll be updating it with new things coming up into the future, and have a website there'll be ready to launch sometime in September. And that's kind of where we're at right now. 

Tim  13:16

Oh, awesome.

Dave  13:17

And the website will be www.unconventionalclassroom.ca which is the important distinction, so.

Tim  13:25

.ca got it. 

Dave  13:27

.ca 

Tim  13:28

We’re proud Canadians, so let’s use it. 

Dave  13:30

Yeah, there we go.

Tim  13:31

All right. Well, Dave, thank you so much for spending this time with me, and I really appreciate it. 

Dave  13:35

Thank you so much. 

Tim  13:36

And I'm sure there's gonna be lots of value that people can get out of that insight that you bring, which, to me, is always so surprising. So, thanks again. 

Dave  13:45

I certainly appreciate the opportunity. And thanks again, and everyone, just love people; it makes life so much easier.

Tim  13:58  

Thank you so much for listening to Sweet on Leadership. If you found today's podcast valuable, consider visiting our website and signing up for the companion newsletter. You can find the link in the show notes. Like us, if you think it's important to bring new ideas and skills into the practice of leadership. Please give us a positive rating and review on Apple Podcasts. This helps us spread the word to other committed leaders. And you can spread the word too by sharing this with your friends, teams and colleagues. Thanks again for listening. And be sure to tune in in two weeks' time for another episode of Sweet on Leadership. In the meantime, I'm your host, Tim Sweet, encouraging you to keep on leading.