In this episode of the Sweet on Leadership podcast, Tim Sweet engages in a dynamic conversation with Richard Young, a seasoned expert in high-performance sports. The episode explores the transition from hope-to-knowing in achieving sustained success, emphasizing evidence, conviction, and a system-thinking approach. 

Richard, drawing from his experience with Olympic athletes, highlights the importance of simplicity, alignment, and well-being in optimizing high-performance teams. The conversation extends into the business domain, illustrating the applicability of these principles for building and sustaining excellence in various leadership contexts. Throughout the discussion, personal experiences and insights are shared, providing an exploration of the key elements that contribute to lasting success in both sports and business leadership.

The episode unfolds as Tim and Richard discuss the nuances of confidence, conviction, and the mind-body connection. They delve into the impact of evidence-based decision-making, the role of a cohesive team in individual confidence, and the systemic factors that produce conviction. Richard introduces his upcoming book, "Performance Leadership," offering a preview of the systemic differences between repeat medalists and non-medalists. The episode concludes with a powerful message, emphasizing the accessibility of performance fulfillment and the importance of focusing on the journey.

About Richard Young

Richard’s deep knowledge of people and performance has made him a highly sought-after speaker, mentor and strategist. He has experience across 10 Olympic cycles across most roles (athlete, coach, leader, researcher). He has won international gold medals, coached world champions, and created medal-winning programmes for three countries across innovation, research, learning and leadership. 

Richard has a PhD in medical science and later focussed on uncovering the key differences between medallists and non-medallists, their coaches, technical staff, leaders and the system they are in. Using his first-hand experience of leading people and programmes to create change for better performance he can make new high performance work for you. In your own arena, at work, and at home! 



Richards's values are family, productivity, belonging, discovery and transformation. He has been described as a ‘world-class performance creator’. Born in the UK, raised in Canada, he lives in Dunedin, New Zealand with his four children (and dog Dougal).

Resources discussed in this episode:

• Ange Postecoglou
• Anders Ericsson
• Belonging by Owen Eastwood
• The Living Company by Arie De Geus

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Contact Tim Sweet | Team Work Excellence: 

• Website
• LinkedIn: Tim Sweet
• Instagram
• Linkedin: Team Work Excellence

Contact Richard Young | Simplify2Perform: 

• Website: simplify2perform.com
• Linkedin: Simplify2Perform

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Transcript:

Richard 00:01

Hoping is a flag for evidence that's missing and knowing means the gap has been filled. So, it's a good word generally, universally for human nature to have hope but in the performance game is another trigger. And there needs to be a leader who spots that and says, Well, I hope it all comes off. And then we're looking at opportunity. And the opportunity is typically inside the gap and that could flag a gap in evidence. So, what don't we know?

Tim 00:32

I'd like to ask you some questions. Do you consider yourself the kind of person that gets things done? Are you able to take a vision and transform that into action? Are you able to align others towards that vision and get them moving to create something truly remarkable? If any of these describe you, then you, my friend, are a leader, and this show is all about and all for you. Thanks for joining us for the 27th episode of the Sweet on Leadership podcast. 

Tim 01:04

Well, hi, again, everybody. This is going to be one of my favourite episodes. I know that I'm confident, I don't have to wonder about that. I don't have to guess, I don't have to hope. I know it's going to be one of my favorite episodes. Why? Because I've got evidence. I've been with the wonderful person that's in front of me here today. Before I know what we're capable of. And I am fully confident. Please let me welcome Richard Young, to the podcast.

Richard 01:34

A right on Tim. Wow, what an intro. What an intro and same back to you too. So, always a pleasure joining, you ask deep questions and yet connect some dots. And we always get somewhere, I learn a heap. 

Tim 01:47

Well, the feeling is mutual. But before we get going too much for those of you that haven't checked out Richard in previous episodes, I'd like you to introduce yourself. Could you tell us who you are? Who do you serve? And what do you mean to those people? 

Richard 02:04

Yeah. Right on so. So, I live in New Zealand. I’m Canadian, you can tell the accent. And so I live in the south of New Zealand with my four kids by the beach here and worked in high-performance sports, primarily the Olympics my whole life. So, from an athlete, coach through to leader, and researcher all in three countries as well. Three years ago, I decided to do some of my own work, I felt without the kind of bureaucracy and the dogma around me, I could help more people faster. And so that's what I've been doing. So, I work primarily with sports leaders, so senior leaders into experts in sports, they don't necessarily run the sport, some could be ahead of medicine, and some do run the Olympic Committees and things for different countries. And I help them streamline their approach to high performance. So, typically, when you've been in the game a long time, I call it winners bloat, they've got so many good ideas, that one before, it's hard to filter. Because they can make a good case for everything that they've done before you get enough people in the room like that. And it's a real bloated place of great ideas. And so I help come in and streamline big rocks down to even bigger rocks. So, there's only a few of them. And there's a pattern in repeat medalists that I noticed. And they learned that at the end, and so I help people at the beginning, figure that out sooner. 

Tim 03:33

Awesome. And there's so many parallels, anybody who is listening, that's worked with me, you're gonna hear a lot of similarities. And that's because you and I come from very similar schools of thought. And we've trained together in certain practices. And so the whole idea of resolving conflict, and aligning tensions, and all of that is something that you and I are all over. So, before we got going here, I sent you a video and I thought I could really kick off our conversation today. And I was really inspired by what this person was saying, and I thought you get a real kick out of it. This is a quote from Ange Postecoglou. He's one of the premier league coaches for Tottenham MFC. And he's got a really interesting take when a reporter asks him, do you ever visualize yourself hoisting a trophy over your head? So, let's take a listen. And then we'll come back together we'll give it a talk. 

Reporter 04:24

Do you ever picture yourself lifting trophies as a more general question?

Ange 04:28

I got real pictures, mate. Quite a few of them. Just look at the ones I've got. I’ve earned them, I'm not lucky. I love winning, mate. That's all I've done my whole career. And now, don't say that dismissively that I've got pictures and I don't have them on my ceiling mate, as you suggested, but that's what drives me every year. I start the year hoping that at the end of the year, there is a picture of me with a team and lifting a trophy. That's what I've tried to do my whole career. And I've got plenty of evidence of that. So, that's what my sort of intent is here. It's not something that I have to visualize. It's what I do.

Tim 05:14

So, there's the video, what are your first thoughts when you hear that, Richard?

Richard 05:19

I hear the master in that leader. So, he's pointing out something very particular to the best in the game is that they do have a picture. So, Anders Ericsson, did all the research on you know, 10,000 hours and things and he had said, to become an expert, there needs to be a benchmark around you, you need to see what high performance looks like. And so some new sports of the Olympics struggle with that, you know, surfing and breaking and things like that. There's no benchmark yet. Whereas the other ones, you can see all these world records dropping, because they know the benchmark, they've seen the picture, and sometimes they're in the picture. So, what he's talking about there is, you wouldn't hire a coach who hasn't won before, is another way of putting what he's saying there is Tottenham would not hire someone who hasn't won before. So, he does have a lot of pictures. And you don't want someone learning on the fly, you want them tuning and synthesizing but not starting from zero. So, the best in the game are like him, they do have championship pictures or winning pictures around them. They may be aiming he says, aiming for better, and you know, the continuous improvement and all those things you hear about leaders, but their past is a record of victories, they have a history of winning. And that's what we find in the performance leaders in the sustained metal systems. The group, the people, the athletes are surrounded by people who have won before. And the sports that have a barren land of people who won before, they're doing their best. They're putting in a massive effort, but there's a misdirection on the main things.

Tim 07:02

You know, it's funny when I think of teams that I work with, it's a very common behavior for people to chart a win, really get something right, do something wonderful. And then steamroll, right past it on to the next thing, and not even take a moment to record or to acknowledge that that was a win. And then when it comes around the next time where they are having to do perhaps something very similar again, they almost can't recall that they had already, you know, had this experience. And you've talked to me before about being able to see those wins because Ange didn't start out being a Premier League winner. Those wins had to be found elsewhere. Right? So, can you talk a little bit about that for us? Because I love your perspective on this.

Richard 07:53

Yeah. So, his win, there's another great video of him because he was a premiership. I think he was a premiership player as well. And there's a shot of him in the dugout, and this is maybe last year with Tottenham. And the ball, you can tell based on his vision that someone's kicked the ball up high, and it's coming out of bounds, and it lands right beside him and he traps the ball. He's in a suit.

Tim 08:17

Oh, right. I've seen that body memory whap.

Richard 08:21

That’s right. Yeah, taps the ball and pushes it out to the field, and just shrugs his shoulders at the crowd. Who are you, I don't know if it's a standing ovation. But anyways, just so impressive, but there's the premiership history in him. And so in sports, there's this myth. And it's important to bust myths as well that you have to have been a premiership performer, or a championship performer to be a champion leader or a champion coach. And that's like asking a leader to be the best at you know, every department, he or she manages, and impossible. And so sometimes the best athletes do not make the best leaders. They can't see out of their own self because you have to be very self-absorbed to be an athlete and then you have to see wider to be a leader and a coach. And so if you've got winning those winning they need to be with people, not just you with a metal, Look at me go. It's the leaders and the change-makers that see like him, him lifting a trophy with a team. That's what he said it's not him with a trophy. It's with the team and so that perspective for leadership is the win is on us, it's not me, is vital. And you don't often see that in the leaders who are just working their way up. It's still about me they're still trying to prove like a new athlete selected to a team. It's natural to try to prove yourself first. They found that I did research on the All Blacks, they wanted me to review their caps, they call them caps here is how many times you've been in a test match, a championship game. And so the players under 15 caps, the players between 15 and 40. And then there's a cut-off that you're a senior player after 40 and someone like Richie McCaw, who was the captain down here. And by the way, rugby is crazy down here. It's like hockey in Canada. Everything is about rugby. Even in the town I'm in when the World Cup was here, there was going to be four games, not one of them an All Blacks game. There was a referendum of petition put out to there's only 120,000 people in this town. Should we spend 150 million on an indoor stadium for these four World Cup games, It'll take us 50 years to pay it off. It was a unanimous, Yes. So, and that's what we have is an indoor stadium. So, Richie McCall, I number of caps. But the difference was, it was all me under 15 caps. It was all us but I'm not sure where I fit between 15 and 40. And it's all us. And I know where I fit after 40. So, their picture changed from a me to a we. And so that coach there that you just quoted, interesting, he points out, it's a we picture and same with a McCall, but it's him with the team and the cup. 

Tim 11:23

Him with a team with the cup. And it's funny, because as you were saying that simplistically, I was thinking, Well, does a person have to have success as a leader going forward? No, not necessarily. I mean, this is why being part of that us as a junior, whether it's a junior person in business, or in education, or in sport, being part of it, you have to be part of the us, and then you have to think in terms of that collective thinking. And, you know, we often try to inspire that in leaders that they think, you know, around who are they serving, and that they don't get too myopic on their own needs, obviously. But this is actually a precursor for them to be able to even achieve those next levels. It's so much more than just a good habit. It actually is their conceptualization of success before success. And what does that look like? And boy, you know, I love talking to you, man, because every time there's so many examples, that, sure I may have helped people get past but it brings new light things and new realizations. And I'm right now I'm thinking of an example of a leader who was struggling. And this just explains so much that ego picture had gotten in the way that I picture had gotten in the way. Where they had all sorts of examples for WE wins, but they weren't accessing them. I mean, it speaks to one other thing. And I use one of your philosophies in my coaching practice. And it's all about that performance mindset. And once you have this experience, and again, as Ange says, in that clip, he has pictures of himself winning, he doesn't need to wonder if he can do this. You know, and you talk about hope versus know. And I always talk about in business, hope is a four letter word, don't tell me you hope something is gonna happen. Don't tell me you think it might happen. Like, let's access the data and everything we know, to take a very good educated guess of whether or not this is going to happen. And nothing's better than experience and evidence of it happening before. So, when you are working with these teams, what kind of an example would you give us about really helping somebody bridge that gap between hope and know?

Richard 13:44

Yeah, yeah. A lot of it is evidence-focused, right? So, the knowing means there are metrics around me or a picture that I can see this has happened and it can happen again. And so that conviction that brings for people, the data that I tracked it, six Olympic cycles now have medalists and non-medalists in a yachting group here who had won three Olympics. And they said hoping is a flag for evidence that's missing and knowing means the evidence the gap has been filled. So, it's a good word, generally, universally for human nature to have hope. But in the performance game is another trigger. And there needs to be a leader who spots that and says, Well, in the end, I hope it all comes off. So, before the Olympics, I hope I get lane eight.

Tim 14:40

Screeching tires. 

Richard 14:41

That's right. Yeah. So, there's the second question that gets asked. So, performance leaders ask the second question, and then we're looking at opportunity and the opportunity is typically inside the gap and that could flag a gap in evidence So, what don't we know? So, there was one rower who was World Champion, and they started to fade and they became kind of disillusioned with their fitness and their times are wavering and stuff and so the whole support staff thought it was mindset. And so the psych team, an army of good intent, wrapped themselves around her and things then the coach looked and he came at it from the hoping/knowing and he got to investigate what might be under the hood, for he knew her well, also. But it turns out it was and I had this one in the book as well, it turned out it was the evidence that they had numbers for but she wasn't aware of them. And so he just presented those numbers to her every day on how she was tracking. And suddenly, she had evidence that it's not as bad as I thought. Feelings aren't facts, facts are facts. And so suddenly, she progressed and she became the world champion that year. And he knew it wasn't mindset, because you can't hope your way to victory. You do have to have prep, you know, that goes into flow, which we can talk about later. 

Tim 16:12

For sure. It's funny that you say that, because something that started with me when I used to wrestle, and it's continued through university, and even now, it doesn't happen as often now. But you say, Sorry, what? Please repeat that for me. Feelings…

Richard 16:29

Feelings aren't facts. 

Tim 16:30

Feelings aren't facts. I have a very physical response when I'm feeling uneasy, or I don't have the facts, or I'm not sure of how something's panning out. I'll get tightness across my back when I was wrestling, this would show up as muscle impingement and stuff like that, right? Like it really got tight. And then all I had to do was kind of rationalize stuff. It sounds so silly, but if I was studying for a test and I was feeling tense, I’d start to feel this tension in my back. And so then I would just take stock of what I knew. And what I didn't know. And as soon as I had a handle on it, and I moved it sort of from that emotional side over to where I could see it. Honestly, sometimes it was like it felt like an injury and it just went away. Within hours. It was gone. And I've had this happen dozens of times over my life. I mean, it's this strange sort of mind-body connection. It sounds a little cheesy. But I felt, you know, I literally felt injured. Through uncertainty, I guess.

Richard 17:32

Yeah. Yeah. Awesome way to put it. Yeah. 

Tim 17:36

Well, I don't know if it's that. But it was just, you know when you said that it really gave. And I can imagine for this, this performer, once she had that data was just a deep breath. And like, Wow, I feel better right now. Like the fog just clears and the fog of war lifts and you can see what's in front of you and you remind yourself what your job is. And it's funny, you know, I think you and I've talked about this before, but when we talk about that hope versus knowing, you know, I love that there's always that circle with the pie graphs. And there's this little thin piece that says, we know what we know, these little thin piece that says we know what we don't know. And then there's this massive piece that says we don't know what we don't know. And I always think there's a fourth slice, which is that we forgot what we knew, you know, we actually failed to recognize what we already have learned and committed it to memory.

Richard 18:32

A friend of mine gave me a great line yesterday because he's a leader in a business. And he said a lot of my staff know what to do, but don't do what they know.

Tim 18:42

Yeah, no kidding. And that's a great segue, actually into the next question I got for you because you've mentioned the word conviction quite a few times here. Do you draw a distinction between conviction and confidence?

Richard 18:55

Yeah, so confidence is a frame, a mental frame, it is deeply inside, like your somatic sense of a feeling of being unprepared or something and that twinge in your back. So, conviction is deeply felt. It's just acknowledging and it's systemic, it's wider than me, it's bigger than me. There's something coming together here. My teammates, my staff, my home life, there's a whole picture is conviction, whereas confidence is this. That's right. Yeah, yeah. So, a much bigger piece is conviction. That's really a key difference between the sustained high performers and the rest because they are system builders. And when you have a system behind you, you just know the system's got your back, and suddenly it's conviction.

Tim 19:51

That's such a great way to put that. And again, when you build that system around people, and of course in the work that we do and the work that I do, so much of it is just helping people become fluent in where they are and what they've got. And that they're part of that system. And that system is around them and that it’s functioning. And so really, that is that feeling of being inside something that has a purpose and has a way of operating in a system of support or rules or code or whatever it is, but it's got a way to perform. Now all of a sudden, you are in that second space where you can perform, you're in that, it's not home, something else, it's a different vocation. And you have a role. And I think that that feeling of belonging leads to confidence as much as anything else.

Richard 20:39

Yeah, yeah. You’d love to read called Belonging. And maybe the listeners would like to read that too, written by a Kiwi. I think he's out in Britain now. But a lot of the rugby group and on this theme of cohesion, and team cohesion is a fantastic book. And there's a difference. You just pointed something out there. To him, the confidence is me. Conviction is we. 

Tim 21:06

100%. Great. And I'll add this to the show notes. But does that Owen Eastwood? 

Richard 21:08

Yeah, that's him.

Tim 21:10

Owen Eastwood. 

Richard 21:11

And he's on LinkedIn, by the way. So connected. I've connected to him. And yeah.

Tim 21:17

Send me an invite man. Put us together. So, unlock your potential with the ancient code of togetherness. Excellent. Okay, that is on my list for sure. So, I like that cover too, I want them to be a tattoo. Anyway. Awesome. Okay, so what have we covered, we've covered being able to see the wins and distinguish that hope from know that security that gives us and another layer of security, you have brought us into this, me versus we and this ability to access this layer of conviction now that we have purpose and everything else. And that will yield among other things, probably give us a greater sense of confidence individually because we are part of something. They've got to play off each other. I'm sure. So, man, that's fantastic. What's your thinking as were at this point in the conversation? 

Richard 22:13

Well, I'm not surprised we're connecting some dots here, Tim. So, you know, the synthesis between–

Tim 22:14

Strong galvanization? 

Richard 22:20

Yeah. You get a couple of system thinkers, there'll be a lot of listeners out there that you know, the system thinking folk at all systems mean is people, places, and things and how they interact. It's just a helicopter view of the environment you're in, the orbit that you're in. And so everything can be framed as a system, even the video you played at the start, we could analyze his conversation, that one line from system thinking. I just got off the phone with a coach who wants some help with their plans for the World Cup. And it's basically system thinking, just to have a reflector pointed out are these really the big rocks? And how do we interconnect people, places and things? So, just good coaching, you know, like you do for your clients and leaders, all we are our system reflectors, really. And we point the lens back at the expert in front of us who knows the context. And that's what sport is. It's a series of experts, some with massive egos, by the way, a whole series of experts, and they need to be coordinated together so that their output is like all the arrows hitting the dartboard. And it's one dartboard. There's not multiple dartboards. So, yeah, that's where you find cohesion produces a team performance. That's the exciting part about sport is particularly team sport, you know, the physiology sports, that's my background, it's pretty straight, you know, you can kind of tell who's going to be within. Like rowing here is the best thing in the world, and their training is repeatedly 98 to 99% of world records. So, that's what they do, just keep going. And so physiology can do that. Whereas in a team, you never know when they're going to lift and just be that different team, you know that, wow, look at that. And there's something exciting. And that business team is just as exciting. Because the same peek, the same flow can happen in a business team. So, you asked what reflect like, what's happening, I can see all of this pointing to business, really, you know, the area that we're in these examples, you're heavy into business, I'm heavy into sport, but the bridge between the two you can you can hear the similarities between them. 

Tim 24:38

I’m telling you the last few months have seen me crossing over. You know, I've been involved in cycling on that side. And now I'm getting involved in curling and pickleball was the most recent. So, you know, and it all is that sort of expression of well, I think conviction is the word but I love cohesion, finding that synergy, and really helping people be their best selves together kind of thing. I want to have you back and probably before too long, because I want us to have a separate conversation on flow, because that is one of my favourite areas to teach and play with. And then we can have a business focus discussion. Before we wrap up here, it's important to note that as much as we talked about sport, you are making huge inroads into business. So, if you are a business owner, you should really be thinking about checking out Richard, and especially if you're on that side of the pond, what are you dealing with? What are some of the most notable benefits I guess I could say? Or advantages when business owners start to take lessons from what you've learned in sport?

Richard 25:42

Yeah, so primarily, the high-performing team. So, I know that's a big focus of yours. And in performance–

Tim 25:53

Now it’s sustained high performance, somebody helped light me up to the difference between high performance, anybody can podium once, and sustained high performance. How do we do it over and over again? Do you remember his name? What's his name? That's right, it was Richard Young. Anyway, go ahead, please.

Richard 26:13

Yeah, so that's where the triangle came from. So, what I use in business and sport, and that's the theme of the next book, which is in finished drafts, so that'll be out in another probably two months. So, the key systemic differences between repeat medalists, sustained high performers, and non, and for us, it's pretty binary on metals and non so we have a pretty easy number to measure if you've got it. But inside that metal is a whole lot of depth if it's sustained. Anyone can win wants, it's actually pretty easy to win an Olympic medal, but to repeat it is totally different. And so they have a different and I don't mean to be little an Olympic medal, by the way, if there's listeners out there who've, you know, put their whole. So all I mean is the system required to do that even a business that achieves you know, they surpass all expectations. It's to repeat that. And you can just feel the difference in that while we got it together. But do we know exactly how we pulled that off, then it's more deliberative, it's sustained. So, the triangle is simplicity, alignment and well-being, so to keep it going, and there's a great book called The Living Company by Arie De Geus. He was the CEO of BP Oil a long time ago. And he was curious why some companies live longer than humans, but most don't. And the ones that live longer, that like past 100 years, they had certain things in common. They weren't connected to the ecology of their environment. They were adaptable, they were thrifty on their finance. So, it was a few things like that. And in sport, that translates to simple, we're not trying to do it all. We know what matters aligned, we're rowing in the same direction not as easy as it sounds when you've got a whole roomful of people who’ve won before. And then well-being means we're okay and you can feel the difference. You walk into a sport with systemic well-being. It's not gym passes, and they are fit already. But inside, there's a lot of pain in a lot of sport. And so the approach is changing completely in high performance because a lot of disasters that have happened for athletes and staff as well, which happens in other industries, but it's quite public in sport when something bad happens. And so it just means that there's all hands on deck to figure it out. So, that triangle works. And so the translation of that into business is a higher performing team. And you can call on flow, it's not psychological, it's preparation. So yeah, for sure, let's talk about that next time because there's this whole, you know, between us the session on flow, it's a deep, meaningful call to attention. It isn't something psychological.

Tim 29:16

I know we're going to do a good job on that one. All right. Any working title for the book right now?

Richard 29:24

Performance Leadership is the as the working title. Yeah.

Tim 29:28

Stay tuned to both of us because I'll be shouting that one from the rooftops. All right. And if people want to get in touch with you, what's the best way they can get in touch with you?

Richard 29:37

The website or LinkedIn? So richardnyoung.com is the site that goes to simplify to perform but yeah, richardnyoung it's just a name easy to remember them.

Tim 29:52

No problem, we’ll put it in the show notes so that it's there. And as I asked every one of my guests now. Not the last time you were on, I don't think we started this little tradition. If you had one hope for the athletes, the business owners, the founders, the leaders that are listening today, if you could hope or you wish them… well hope, let's talk about the different kind of hope. What's your wish for them? Let's talk about that. What would you like them to feel and know coming out of this, this conversation?

Richard 30:23

We know this, that performance is more than a metal. It's deeply personal and its fulfillment. So the ones that achieve this sustained high performance, there's a sense of fulfillment and metal or no metal, all of what we've talked about, flow, conviction, metal matters but that isn't the main thing. There's a performance fulfillment that a lot of people never get to in sport and business, and it's closer than we think. So, yeah. So, hopefully, there's some trigger in here that it might be hey, you know what, maybe I've overcomplicated things. Maybe there's a couple of smaller arrows I need to be focused on than these big arrows, maybe I'm all results-focused, and the ones who are journey-focused, they get there faster than the rest. 

Tim 31:11

That is an experience or that is a feeling. Fulfillment is something that everybody deserves. And a lot of people don't think it's within reach, but it is. They just need to break it down a little bit. All right, Richard Young, man. Love spending time with you. 

Richard 31:29

Same with you, too.

Tim 31:30

Alright, let's do it real soon.

Richard 31:32

See you for the next month. 

Tim 31:33

Excellent, all the best. 

Tim 31:39

Thank you so much for listening to Sweet on Leadership. If you found today's podcast valuable, consider visiting our website and signing up for the companion newsletter. You can find the link in the show notes. Like us, if you think it's important to bring new ideas and skills into the practice of leadership. Please give us a positive rating and review on Apple podcasts. This helps us spread the word to other committed leaders. And you can spread the word too by sharing this with your friends, teams and colleagues. Thanks again for listening. And be sure to tune in, in two weeks time for another episode of Sweet on Leadership. In the meantime, I'm your host, Tim Sweet, encouraging you to keep on leading.