0:03

If you will place your left hand on the Bible

0:05

and raise your right hand, and please

0:08

repeat after me and I do solemnly

0:10

swear vent titled action.

0:13

Find the defendant guilty of the prime. It

0:15

makes no sense, it doesn't fit.

0:18

If it doesn't fit, it must a quit.

0:20

We all took the same of of office. We're

0:22

all bound by that common commitment to

0:24

support and defend the Constitution, to bear

0:27

true faith in allegiance to the same that

0:29

you faithfully discharge the duties of our office.

0:31

Do you solemnly swear or affirm

0:34

that the testimony you're about to give will be the

0:36

truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

0:38

truth. From Tenderfoot TV and

0:40

I Heart Radio, this is Sworn.

0:43

I'm your host, Philip Holloway. Hi

0:48

everyone, Christina here, Welcome

0:51

to the last bonus episode for this season

0:53

of Sworn. For the first part of the

0:55

episode, we're going to take you on an

0:57

audio tour of Phil's office, a

1:00

cozy house shaped office in Marietta,

1:02

Georgia, before sitting down for

1:04

a round table discussion with some of the key

1:06

staff of the Holloway Law Group. I

1:09

hope you enjoy,

1:25

Ohsuy, I'll

1:30

get to see you I was just showing

1:33

in your kids mostly tween

1:39

my personal office face. I

1:41

don't think it really has much of a

1:43

rhyme nor reason to what's what's in here

1:46

other than, you know, basically the stuff that I need

1:48

on a day to day basis to to do

1:50

my work. It's important

1:52

to give credit where it's due. My wife, Natalie,

1:54

who the listeners met in one

1:57

of our earlier episodes, she's basically

1:59

my decorator in chief. She's actually in interior

2:02

design school now working on her master's in

2:04

interior designs. So she sort of helped me get

2:06

this thing put together. And it's

2:08

nothing special for sure, but what she

2:10

want to do is have people, when they come in to meet

2:12

me, maybe for the first time, be able to know a little bit about

2:15

me and maybe my past. So you see some

2:17

family pictures here, things that you know, say

2:19

you know, I am a real human person with a life

2:22

outside of court and outside of podcasting

2:24

and other media. I've got my

2:27

documents which proved that

2:29

I'm not lying when I said that I was in the military.

2:32

I've got admissions to the various

2:34

courts, you know, in this case, you've got the

2:36

trial courts and the appellate courts in Georgia. Of

2:38

course, there's one on the wall here somewhere that shows

2:41

that I am in fact admitted to the federal courts

2:43

and in fact the U. S. Supreme Court. We've

2:46

got um my law school

2:48

diploma which proves that I'm actually

2:51

a law school graduate until they decided

2:53

to rescind it. And I've got

2:55

this globe on my desk that gets

2:57

a lot of comments that my wife got from

2:59

me on our first anniversary trip.

3:02

We were in Puerto Rico and

3:04

she got really lucky playing roulette.

3:08

She took whatever she won from that one role

3:10

of the Roulette wheel and bought me that little

3:13

globe there. And the only reason it's really there

3:15

that the true reason is because it has to cover

3:17

up a hole for for power

3:19

chords. So I really can't move

3:22

that. This is a small ship,

3:24

and I may be the captain of it, but I can't run it by

3:26

myself. I need another set

3:28

of eyes, or in this case, several sets of other

3:30

eyes to make sure I don't miss anything, because I know that

3:32

from time to time things can can

3:35

get past me. So I need uh some

3:37

really talented people around me to help

3:39

make sure that we get it right. We're

3:42

gonna go meet Stephanie, she's our

3:45

paralegal extraordinaire, and we'll meet Addison,

3:47

who's another attorney. That sounds

3:49

great. This

3:52

is our great paralegal, Stephanie. She really

3:54

is the person that keeps this train on the

3:56

tracks. She actually was a

3:58

student of mine when I talked criminal

4:00

justice at university here. She

4:03

probably made very good grades in my class.

4:05

Although I don't specifically remember what her grade

4:07

was. I remember her as a as a very good student.

4:10

I think I gotta be. I was

4:12

working and going to school and

4:16

it's very young so making

4:18

it through getting that degree. But I enjoyed his class.

4:20

He was a good teacher. After

4:23

I took his class, started working

4:25

in the warrant Division midnight

4:27

shift on the weekends.

4:29

While I was in school, I

4:31

was pretty trime relice officer for I

4:34

worked at the jail and then

4:36

making decisions on if people should get

4:38

out or not, and then I supervised

4:41

people that were out on bond, making

4:44

sure they were doing everything the judge ordered

4:46

them to do. I went

4:48

from working the midnight shift to working at the

4:50

courthouse during the day, so now completely

4:53

switch roles, switched teams,

4:56

working on this side. It's just it's

4:58

it's totally different. It's

5:01

interesting to see it from both sides. You

5:04

know, if she had a Walleye since I'd be happy to send

5:06

her to court. Well almost anything that we do. That's

5:08

how much she knows about stuff. We

5:11

keep Addison down here in the basement where we can't

5:14

hurt anybody. Oh my goodness,

5:16

is that that's

5:18

a moose as a moosehead that belongs

5:20

to another the attorney who owns

5:22

this building. It's one of his trophies. You know.

5:24

It's as big as I am.

5:28

This is my cave. All I need is a computer

5:30

or phone, and

5:34

and I am content. I

5:37

was with Fulton County District Attorney's

5:39

Office, so I handled a lot of a

5:41

lot of different kinds of things. Was there a

5:44

couple of years, and it kind of reached

5:46

my uh my wall, so to speak.

5:49

With the prosecution side. One

5:52

of the biggest problems I had was that you really

5:55

don't have a lot of say about what

5:57

you think it might be the right outcome for

5:59

a k case. My

6:03

interpretation of how I think it should

6:05

go is not in line with some

6:08

other people's interpretation of how it should

6:10

go. So here it's just a lot

6:12

more freedom in a way,

6:15

the freedom to to say, here's how

6:17

we're going to proceed with this case because this is how

6:19

we we think it's the right way to go, or

6:21

whether to take the case at all. Just sometimes

6:24

he just listening off the leashes go And then

6:27

that's what I like. If

6:30

I'm somewhere, Phil will step in and take

6:32

care of something that I worked down likewise too,

6:34

so it's a good give and take. Phil

6:38

is in the driver's seat almost every time

6:40

regarding the case. But every case that

6:42

we have he has eyes on it,

6:44

and I had eyes on it. You're

6:46

getting a lot of people looking at issues and looking

6:49

at different facts and seeing what can be

6:51

spotted. You know, when I say

6:53

it's a team effort, I mean I mean that it is. I can't

6:55

possibly do it by myself. It's just no way.

6:58

They're professionals, and I've got

7:00

a trust them that they're gonna comport themselves

7:03

and conduct themselves as professionals. And they do.

7:05

And you know, like I said, we all have to work together.

7:08

We know that this is a team effort, and without

7:10

working together, we wouldn't be able to get a whole hell

7:12

of a lot done at least not done well. So

7:16

welcome guys to a special addition

7:18

especial episode of Sworn. I've always kind of wanted

7:21

to do a show like this. I'm

7:23

joined here at the office by

7:25

Ms Stephanie are Paralegal extraordinaire,

7:28

Mr Addison, who is a

7:30

great attorney that works here with me, Christina

7:33

Dana, our lead producer

7:35

for Sworn, and Mr Mike,

7:37

the man behind the mike who makes

7:39

all the sound stuff work. How's it going, Mike? How's

7:42

all right? So anyway, I think what we'd

7:44

like to do is just go ahead and start off talking

7:46

about maybe some things that we have learned

7:49

in our careers that maybe the

7:51

public doesn't understand about

7:53

the practice of law or the criminal justice system.

7:56

Christina is just gonna go and start us off with some topics

7:58

and then we'll just kind of jump off from there and

8:00

see where it goes. Yeah. So, I

8:02

guess my sort of broadest question

8:05

topic is what kinds

8:07

of questions do you guys get the most,

8:10

like at parties or sort

8:12

of when you're just interacting in your normal, non

8:14

lawyer daily life. What are the questions people

8:16

try to like hit you with. So

8:18

I want to see how Stephanie answers

8:20

that, because she's a very experienced

8:23

paralegal, it's been around the criminal justice system

8:25

a long time. But she's not a lawyer, so I

8:27

know what my answer would be, but I want to hear what hers is.

8:30

People that know what I do usually

8:33

ask me questions about things that are going

8:35

on in the news. If we're dealing

8:37

with cases like that. They also,

8:40

of course asked me about Phil they'll fill on

8:42

TV the other day. But a lot

8:44

of people want to know if we're involved with things

8:46

that have been on the news recently. Are

8:49

you often involved in things related to the

8:51

news. Yes, we seem

8:53

to attract cases that are

8:55

in the media, whether it's on

8:57

TV, on social media,

9:00

uh that's put out by the local

9:02

police departments, about new cases

9:04

that have happened, to arrests that have been made.

9:07

We seem to attract cases like that, So yes,

9:09

a lot of times we are what about

9:12

you, Addison, what kind of questions do you

9:14

get? Pretty much the same

9:16

about if something hits the media, they'll

9:19

they'll ask me a question about what I think about

9:21

it, even if really no information is

9:23

out about the case yet, And

9:25

then inevitably you'll get

9:27

the well. My cousin's third

9:30

wife got arrested last

9:32

week for this, I'd like your your

9:34

expert opinion about what we can do

9:37

to help her out. Pretty much, questions

9:39

like that if something is familiar to

9:41

them, whether it's a family member who's in legal

9:43

trouble or something that's on the news, they

9:46

like to get my input about

9:48

what I think about it, sort of like the doctor

9:50

take a look at my rash situation

9:53

exactly exactly well,

9:56

And I get that too. And of course a lot of times

9:59

people are asking general questions

10:01

about the law, and I'll answer their questions as best

10:03

I can. And sometimes when it gets more

10:05

personal, like you know, they want specific

10:07

legal advice, I'm thinking, Okay, this person

10:09

maybe there a physician, or maybe their car

10:12

sales, and maybe there's some way that they can repay

10:14

me in kind down the road when I need

10:17

favors. I do my best to try to to

10:19

answer that. And I think people are genuinely interested

10:21

in the system and in law, and

10:24

and I think that the more accurately

10:26

people are educated than the better off

10:28

everybody is. So I do I do my best

10:30

to to at least help people understand

10:33

the real justice system. The way that it really

10:36

is the way that I see it and these folks

10:38

see it on a day to day basis, which,

10:40

as we've learned throughout our

10:43

podcasting experience here, is

10:45

oftentimes not the way people think it is

10:47

based on what they see on TV or

10:49

at the movies. It's very, very different.

10:52

They'll ask me, they'll say, how do you represent these

10:54

criminals? And that's a very complex

10:57

question because a they're not all criminals,

10:59

and even the ones that are, there's a

11:01

lot that needs to be done to

11:04

make sure that they get treated fairly.

11:06

And so a lot of times I'll ask the question back,

11:08

well, you know what makes you think they're criminals? And

11:11

they'll I just assume because I got arrested. Well

11:13

have you ever heard that people

11:15

are presumed to be innocent? And they're like,

11:17

oh, yeah, I forgot about that. So I'll

11:20

explain to them that a large part of what we do is

11:22

we help people get treated

11:25

fairly and we try to

11:27

promote fair sentencing, and that's

11:29

a big piece of what we do is fair

11:31

sentencing negotiations. What is a

11:33

fair sentence is oftentimes in the eye of the beholder.

11:35

But if you ask somebody, are you

11:38

against fair sentencing and nobody's

11:40

gonna say yes to that. Everybody is for

11:43

and then there in favor you know, of of fair

11:45

sentencing, and they're forced to think of

11:47

it in that way, and then they get a better and

11:49

I think, more accurate picture of what

11:52

this is all about. What

11:55

do you guys think is one of the bigger misconceptions

11:57

that people have about the justice system.

12:01

I think people jump

12:03

to conclusions about cases

12:06

without actually doing

12:08

any so called detective

12:11

work to figure out what's really going on in

12:13

a case. They may pass

12:15

judgment very quickly. They

12:17

only see the side of the story that's been

12:20

put out there. You know, it's very

12:22

rare to have a person that's actually been charged

12:24

with a major crime that's on the news to

12:26

be out there saying, hey, at it and

12:29

do it. Usually they're very quiet

12:31

because their attorney has told them not to, so

12:34

you're only hearing one side of it, and people

12:37

just form an opinion, and you

12:39

know, they want these people to spend the rest

12:41

of their lives in jail or a very long

12:44

time, and it's just not always

12:46

the right thing that should be done. A

12:49

lot of people, I want

12:51

to say to them, not all people

12:53

that get arrested are bad people.

12:56

Things could happen to any of

12:59

us. There are some cases

13:01

that we have that I sit there and think,

13:03

sometimes this could have just as

13:05

easily have happened to me. And

13:08

I know that I am not a

13:11

bad person, and I would not want to go

13:13

to jail for a very long time. Nobody

13:15

wants to go to jail. So people need

13:17

a good attorney to have

13:20

their back and to give them good

13:22

representation. Right, piggyback

13:24

and off what what Stephanie said. I think

13:26

that when I was a prosecutor, you read

13:29

words on papers, right, you

13:31

have statutes that you're putting down

13:33

on an indictment. You're looking at maybe

13:35

pictures or police reports, and on

13:38

this side of the fence, you're you're actually talking

13:40

to people who are charged, and

13:43

that means you're oftentimes talking

13:45

with their families and and the problems

13:47

that a case is having

13:50

is posing to them. They have children,

13:52

if if they're worried about immigrations,

13:55

I mean, whatever the case may be, there are dozens

13:57

of things that can impact them. And I never really

13:59

consider of that when I was prosecutor.

14:02

I tried to, but I mean, sometimes you just don't

14:04

have the opportunity to, like Stephanie

14:06

said, there are good people who can do some bad

14:08

things, and there are good people who can make

14:10

mistakes. And every one of us

14:13

has done that. And if someone says they haven't,

14:15

their lying could have the most self

14:17

righteous prosecutor defense attorney and they

14:19

say otherwise, they're not telling you the truth. And

14:22

then the biggest rushes when you

14:24

know you're looking over a case file and

14:26

you're like, wait, this person

14:29

didn't do it. This person is innocent of what

14:31

they're they're being charged with. That's

14:33

a tremendous feeling. Addison,

14:35

when you were a prosecutor, did you ever conceive

14:38

that innocent people might be arrested?

14:40

Absolutely? When I was a prosecutor, I was

14:42

a prosecutor in Illinois and Georgia. I'll

14:44

talk about the experience in Illinois is I would

14:46

have a lot of freedom to do what I wanted, and I would actually

14:49

toss cases if they filed

14:51

the motion to suppressed. Dismissed them on

14:53

my own motion because I knew that

14:55

the Fourth Amendment was violated in a particular

14:58

case. The Fourth Amendment deals with a

15:00

search and seizure. For example, say it search is

15:02

bad in a case and they

15:04

file a motion to get rid of the evidence. I

15:06

would dismiss cases if I didn't

15:09

think it was a constitutional stop

15:11

or if something else was really really wrong with

15:13

that case, because the whole point is getting

15:16

the right result and not counting

15:18

convictions. That's how I was trained.

15:21

You just have to have someone who wants to see

15:23

the right thing happened, and that interpretations

15:26

can differ. But that I think that's

15:28

a big problem. Big thing that a

15:30

lot of people don't think about is that you have some very

15:32

very good prosecutors, very good on a

15:34

prosecutors, and then you have some and

15:37

this goes both ways, by the way, you know, defense

15:39

side too, but then you have people who are just notch

15:41

convictions and sometimes oftentimes

15:45

the conviction is not the right result

15:48

in some of these cases. So that's the hurdle that we

15:50

face a lot. We talked about that

15:52

on this season about sort of what winning

15:54

means. Having the sort of numerical

15:56

tally of one cases and lost

15:58

cases isn't necess certainly indicative of

16:01

what justice is, but it's more complicated

16:04

than that. Absolutely. I mean that

16:06

that's the whole that's the whole point. I mean, that's why

16:08

you know sitting in constitutional law in

16:11

law school was so great because

16:13

you've got to see why we have the system in place

16:15

and doing everything you can to

16:18

make sure someone is sitting in a cage. I

16:20

guess it's fine if you have the evidence and it's

16:22

it's constitutionally back. But if you don't

16:25

and you know you don't, that's a

16:27

different story altogether. And get all the front

16:29

page headlines of this huge conviction you get,

16:31

but it doesn't mean anything if someone else is still

16:33

out there who did do it and

16:35

the person who didn't is sitting in a cage somewhere.

16:38

I'm not confining it to people who are innocent

16:41

in the crimes. I'm also including people

16:43

who are asking for punishments that

16:45

don't fit the crime itself, and

16:48

that's to appear tough

16:50

on crime. Maybe it's a media

16:52

case and a lot of times maybe they're getting

16:54

pressure from their higher ups to to do this.

16:56

I mean that that's often the case. Everyone

16:59

should do the saying for the right reasons,

17:01

and that includes defense attorney, includes all

17:03

attorneys. One

17:22

of the jobs I had with the local government

17:24

is I was supervising

17:26

people there were out on bond and

17:29

we have to keep in mind. When I was doing that

17:31

job, the people that I was supervising had

17:33

not been convicted of anything,

17:36

but yet they were having to answer to

17:38

me on a weekly basis.

17:40

On a daily basis, I

17:42

got to know so many of them,

17:45

and I dealt with people that were

17:47

charged from d wise,

17:50

shoplifting, child molestation,

17:53

rape, arm robbery, all

17:56

these different people, they're still people. I

17:58

remember one case supervising

18:01

that was an armed robbery case and

18:03

a person and no prior record made

18:06

one mistake and

18:09

he went to prison for ten years to

18:11

the door, and I remember,

18:14

I just don't feel like this is the right thing.

18:17

He made one mistake,

18:21

he took responsibility for it, and

18:24

because of what he was charged

18:27

with, he was going to go to prison for a very

18:29

long time and miss out on his

18:32

family, his children getting

18:34

older. And at the same time, I

18:36

thought about how his victim felt.

18:38

But you have to look at both sides of it. I

18:41

think some of the things that have been

18:43

spoken about are like mandatory

18:45

minimums. This was a

18:48

young man that made one mistake

18:50

against someone that maybe made

18:53

a continuous decision

18:56

and committed a crime that was

18:58

maybe not violent. Um

19:01

ends up getting probation. But they've made that decision

19:03

to commit that crime ten times,

19:05

twenty times, and they have a prior

19:08

record. But because their charge wasn't

19:10

an arm robbery was something different,

19:14

they didn't have to go to prison, and they

19:16

got to see their family, you know, their kids

19:18

get older, and it just felt wrong

19:20

to me. You have to make

19:22

sure you have to hold people accountable

19:25

because if someone isn't

19:27

giving a person that's committing a crime

19:30

their rights, what makes you think that

19:32

that officer prosecutor isn't going to give

19:34

you your rights. Because everybody

19:36

has the same rights and we have to we

19:39

have to protect those rights, and everybody

19:42

deserves that. They deserve

19:44

to have good representation, and

19:46

they deserve to be protected. That's

19:48

such a good point of like when

19:51

we see things in the media and we're like, oh,

19:53

that was a bad person. They deserved this, but

19:55

something went unconstitutionally

19:57

wrong. That could happen to you too. If

20:00

the system is broken, you're also in that system.

20:03

If you are driving down the road, you could

20:05

get pulled over and your car could be illegally

20:07

searched. What if something was in there

20:10

that you didn't know was in there? What if

20:13

And I think people a lot of times,

20:16

well that would never happen to me. You

20:18

can never say what would ever happen

20:20

to you because there are so many

20:22

variables. You could be in the same situation.

20:25

You could match a description of someone

20:28

that did something, or not

20:30

even match it and just there be a

20:32

mistake in communication and you get pulled

20:34

over. There's so many things that can happen. That's

20:36

why it's so important. You know, when we get

20:39

these calls from people, they're calling

20:41

you in a moment of their life is probably

20:43

wrought bottom for them and they need help, and

20:46

you have to think, what if I was in that situation,

20:49

I would want someone to help me. It's

20:52

like some of the law enforcement officers that

20:54

you know I've represented over the years.

20:56

A lot of these folks will sit

20:59

in my office just be just in

21:01

tears because they're thinking, well, wait a minute,

21:03

I've been a you know, a cop all these years and

21:05

I didn't realize that innocent people can get

21:07

arrested. And then here they sit, They've been accused

21:10

of something and they're absolutely innocent, and they're

21:12

just they're shocked, they can't believe it. I'm

21:14

like, well, you know, welcome to my world. This

21:16

happens, and unfortunately is happening

21:18

to you. So we're just gonna have to deal with it. Addison

21:22

had do you ever known anybody

21:24

before you came to work here who

21:26

was innocent and accused of a serious

21:28

crime or no, not of anybody. Yeah,

21:32

I've known. I've known some people who were innocent

21:34

and some crimes. It goes back

21:36

to my point. I mean a judge once told

21:38

me that that the most powerful person in the courthouse

21:41

is the district attorney. They had the

21:43

charging decisions, and they can decide

21:45

how a case is going to proceed. Not only

21:48

can can someone be be innocent,

21:50

but take Stephanie's example about the arm

21:52

robbery in Georgia, there's a mandatory minimum

21:54

ten years. Well, you know, all cases are different.

21:57

What if you have a fifty five year old man who

21:59

holds a like replica and gets

22:01

ten dollars from a gas station with

22:03

no injuries. And someone else who probably

22:06

doesn't have a clean history, maybe he's been arrested

22:08

five, six, seven times and does rob

22:10

a gas station for say, threatens

22:13

to shoot the person in the head. Each

22:15

one of those cases, the man is facing ten

22:17

years in prison. Maybe, just maybe they

22:19

should be treated differently, and

22:21

you need a prosecutor who is

22:23

able to see the bigger picture

22:26

what is best for everyone

22:29

involved, including the person who's being charged

22:31

with the crime. Does putting someone

22:33

with no criminal history in prison for ten

22:35

years where he's exposed to real hardened

22:37

criminals on a daily basis is that good?

22:40

Is that the right call? Probably not? And

22:43

I think a lot of people you can lose

22:45

focus of of how each case

22:47

is different and and and they're not just words

22:49

on an indictment. You need to have discretion,

22:52

and you need to have the freedom to do what's

22:54

right, and what's right doesn't

22:57

always mean to have someone

22:59

convict did on the entire sheet. We've

23:02

been a lot of time in the podcast

23:04

world talking about things that

23:06

that I'm aware of in the criminal justice

23:08

system that the public may not necessarily

23:11

be aware of, and we've tried to bring

23:13

a lot of that to the front. That's my platform.

23:16

You guys work here in this office, so you

23:18

don't necessarily have that platform. So I want to share

23:20

it with you just for a minute. If you have

23:22

any things that you know about

23:24

that you're aware of things that exist

23:27

in the real world of the criminal justice

23:29

system that you think the public may not be aware

23:31

of. And ask you to just maybe

23:34

mentioned one or two of those things, if you can think of

23:36

anything right now that people

23:38

just wouldn't otherwise be aware of. I

23:41

think that people sometimes underestimate

23:44

the power that media can have

23:47

on a prosecutor's decision. If

23:50

you see a story on the news consistently

23:53

all the time, total exposure, how

23:55

that can lead and alter someone's

23:58

decisions regarding whether the charge person,

24:00

how they're charged. I've

24:02

seen prosecutor's offices try to

24:04

criminalize accidents and make it

24:06

a crime, transform it into a crime

24:09

because of reasons that have nothing

24:11

to do with what's in the statutes.

24:14

That happens a whole lot. Well, actually, let

24:16

me let me be more specific. In Georgia, there's

24:18

a sentencing scheme where you

24:20

can go to prison and then be placed on probation

24:23

for many, many many years afterward after

24:26

prison. So say someone gets sentenced for

24:28

twenty years and they have to serve the first five years

24:30

in prison. Now they have to report to a

24:32

probation officer for fifteen years. That's

24:34

not a mine field away

24:37

to trip someone up and get them

24:39

back into a jail cell. I don't know

24:42

what is, and I believe Georgia leads

24:44

the country in people number

24:46

of people under sentence, and that is

24:48

not taking into account per capita

24:50

in other jurisdictions. I've been it's

24:52

a prison case. There, it's a probation case, and

24:55

if it's a prison case, parole will

24:57

supervise that person after their release

24:59

from prison. How the FEDS do it a lot at the federal

25:01

government, and so I think one of the problems

25:03

with the criminal justice system is the

25:05

amount of time that someone is

25:07

expected to report and be under

25:10

lock and key. I'll tell you one thing,

25:12

when I was twenty three, I don't think I would

25:14

have been able to do that consistently,

25:17

and most people wouldn't be able to do that consistently,

25:20

and that's a problem. I think it's my

25:22

personal opinion. If it's a prison case, it's a prison

25:24

case, and when they get out of prison, they spend a couple

25:26

of years on parole and you're done. I

25:29

don't think that helps anyone. I don't think it helps the court

25:31

system. I don't think it helps to defend it, and I

25:33

know it doesn't help the

25:35

victims in the case. So that

25:38

would be probably my fix to eradicate

25:40

some of the nonsense that I see going on, Stephanie,

25:44

what are you What are you aware of that the public might

25:47

not be aware of. I

25:49

think a lot of people have heard heard the term

25:51

debtors prison. I want everyone

25:54

to realize jails in

25:57

our area house people

25:59

that should not be in jail simply

26:02

because they cannot

26:04

afford to post a bond. There

26:07

are people that are out on bond because

26:11

their family is well off,

26:13

they have a lot of money, that

26:15

are walking around not being supervised.

26:18

We're in jail for a very short amount

26:20

of time, and there are people that

26:22

are being housed. You know, I don't know

26:24

the exact numbers of how much it costs to

26:27

house one person in a local

26:29

jail for one day. I've heard it's

26:31

anywhere between thirty to fifty dollars

26:33

a day per person. They're

26:35

being housed there because they cannot post

26:37

a five hundred dollar bond, and

26:40

they will remain in jail until their

26:42

case is completed. A person

26:44

that cannot post a five hundred dollar bond

26:46

or one thousand dollar bond most

26:49

likely is not going to be able to

26:51

afford their own lawyer. Then that

26:54

person that can't afford to get out has

26:56

to get a lawyer that's paid for by

26:58

the state, which means you and

27:00

me and everybody you know that pays taxes.

27:03

That person will sit in jail for weeks,

27:06

months a year waiting

27:08

for trial because they can't afford

27:11

five a thousand dollars

27:13

because they don't have a family or friends

27:15

that can post that, and it's

27:17

awful. It's a dangerous situation

27:19

for the inmates. There isn't

27:22

enough money to pay

27:24

for law enforcement to be

27:27

able to properly supervise that

27:30

many people that are in jail. It's

27:32

a dangerous situation for deputies

27:34

or police officers that are supervising them

27:37

all because we're holding people in jail

27:39

because they don't have a low amount of

27:41

money and it ends up costing

27:43

everyone so much more money than

27:46

that bail would have ever been and

27:48

it's incredibly inefficient.

27:51

It almost forces

27:53

people that have been in jail for an extended

27:55

period of time to enter please

27:58

against things that they are may not be

28:00

guilty of, or the charges

28:02

may need to be reduced, but they want to get out

28:05

because they've been in jail, they've been away from their

28:07

family or friends for so long.

28:10

Then they end up with a conviction on the record

28:12

because they wanted to get out sooner than

28:14

it spirals from there where it can limit

28:17

them to be able to get a job in the future. Is

28:20

a cycle, and it could be done more

28:22

efficiently. An

28:24

interesting thing about both of the points you guys brought

28:26

up is that it stops people from

28:29

being contributing members of society.

28:31

If someone is stuck in jail, they can't work,

28:33

they can't support their families. If someone's

28:35

on probation, they can't travel, they can't

28:37

do all these things that we sort of uplift

28:40

as a society of people contributing.

28:43

And so then what are we doing because

28:45

we're not rehabilitating people, were not reaping

28:48

the benefits of their skills as a community. It

28:50

just seems punitive exclusively

28:52

at that point. At some point, I mean,

28:55

there are there are cases, I mean, don't don't

28:57

get me wrong where people do need

28:59

to be punished and how accountable for their actions.

29:01

But we have to again, we have to look at the

29:03

long view on some of these cases. Does putting

29:05

someone under a twenty year probationary

29:08

sentence for something he did when he

29:10

was eighteen, does that make sense when

29:12

he's thirty five years old and

29:14

has never been able to get a job because he's got

29:16

a felony on his record. And I'm not saying

29:19

if that person deserves it, not to punish that person

29:21

appropriately, But that goes back to my point

29:24

what's appropriate. The bond issue

29:26

is tremendous and what a lot of people don't understand.

29:28

These people are all presumed to be innocent.

29:31

And sometimes I know, I've been in bond hearing many,

29:33

many, many many times on both sides

29:36

where it's almost a little mini

29:38

trial, and it shouldn't be. The

29:40

primary purpose of a bond hearing is to ensure

29:43

that someone returns to court for future court dates.

29:46

The government needs to show why this

29:48

person is a flight risk, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.

29:51

I think some of those principles get lost

29:53

sometimes the presumption of innocence that

29:55

all those things we almost becomes becomes

29:57

a game. It seems like where once

30:00

I just wants to one up the other and one

30:02

side just wants to win on whatever little tip

30:04

for tat little miniature issue. It is like

30:06

I've seen in bond hearings, which is really a judge's

30:09

call to make, and the judge will hear

30:11

from witnesses from either side. Really,

30:13

but what you'll see is you'll see the defense,

30:15

who has got to have the burden of proof, making

30:17

their case for why somebody in any given

30:19

case should get bond. But

30:22

then sometimes maybe the prosecutor

30:24

will put the arresting officer back on the

30:26

witness stand to give his or her opinion

30:29

on why the person, who they don't even know

30:31

except for this one encounter, why they shouldn't

30:33

be granted bond. And that's really not what the

30:36

police are there for. There there to present sort of

30:38

the facts, not necessarily their opinion

30:40

on whether somebody gets bond. But I see that kind

30:42

of thing happening. I see it all the time.

30:45

I never did that when I was

30:47

in the prosecutor's chair. It is

30:49

treated almost like a little game. You try to find

30:52

a little legal theory, or you went up someone

30:54

in one way in order to get what

30:57

you want. Sometimes prosecutors

30:59

one they make decisions. They make the right decisions.

31:02

You know, it's not There are some very very very

31:04

very excellent prosecutors out there do the right

31:06

things, and then there are sometimes when you

31:08

know you're faced with the situation and you're

31:10

thinking, well, wait a minute, why is

31:12

this person still in jail at

31:14

the end of the day, we can go through the

31:17

theater if you will all you

31:19

want. Why is this person still in jail

31:21

when he doesn't when he shouldn't be. To

31:38

flip almost to the other side, we've

31:40

talked a lot about how the purpose of a defense

31:42

attorney is to be a zealous advocate for

31:45

your client. Have you guys ever had a moment

31:47

where you were sort of like, oh, this

31:49

is the bad guy. They should have been punished more.

31:53

What's the new term throwing

31:55

shade. I don't want to throw all the all the shade

31:57

on the prosecutors because I used to be one and there

32:00

was a case I had. I'm not going to get into specifics.

32:02

It wasn't in this jurisdiction at all that this

32:04

guy was. He belonged in the cage, and he

32:06

belonged in a jail cell for the rest of his life.

32:08

He was just born a certain way and

32:11

and I would have done everything within

32:13

the boundaries of the law to make sure

32:15

that he's spent every second in the jail

32:18

cell because he would hurt people. So yeah,

32:20

I think that there are cases on

32:22

both sides when that happens, and you just

32:24

have to know. I mean that when

32:27

you're defending people charged with

32:29

crimes. You're defending more than

32:31

the person, right, You're defending

32:34

the freedoms that we all

32:36

have. Okay, it's like

32:39

that saying, would you rather have ten

32:41

guilty people go free so

32:43

that an innocent person can go free as well?

32:46

You're willing to have people

32:48

be acquitted who are guilty so that

32:50

you could save the person who is not guilty.

32:53

Because everyone can find themselves in

32:55

a position where you're charged with the crime. You're

32:58

defending all those those liber these

33:00

that you have. And you have different cases,

33:02

and you have different personalities, and you have different clients

33:04

and different kinds of cases. But if

33:07

someone's not going to defend client zealously,

33:10

what are we doing? So if that man that

33:12

you were talking about, the one that should have been locked

33:14

up, had come to you as a defense attorney,

33:17

what would you have done? Would you have just not

33:19

taken the case or tough

33:22

question? I don't know. One

33:24

of the things I love about working

33:26

here is that we have some a little

33:28

bit of flexibility and freedom about what we take

33:30

on. And I would have to think on that it

33:33

was a bad, bad situation. Well,

33:35

every lawyer is not right for every case, and

33:37

let's face it, in the criminal justice world,

33:40

there's some really gnarly

33:42

stuff that happens, and so if

33:45

a lawyer is not able to objectively

33:48

deal with it, they shouldn't they. I think

33:51

they have an obligation to not, because,

33:53

look, we're not right for every case. Every case

33:55

hitting right for us, and if

33:57

somebody chooses to hire

34:00

somebody other than us, that doesn't hurt our feelings either, because

34:02

what I want is the person to have the counsel

34:04

that they're most comfortable with, because I think

34:07

the system works better in that sense. If

34:10

a lawyer can't objectively take a case,

34:12

they just need to leave it be let somebody

34:14

who is able to do that handle the case.

34:16

We have ethical obligations to not

34:19

take everything, if that makes sense. Are

34:22

there ever instances where you're watching the news

34:24

and it's one of these big maybe like serial

34:26

killer cases, and you watch

34:29

how the defense attorney is interacting, maybe

34:31

sort of critically, or oh yeah, when I

34:33

see something on the news and I see these press

34:35

conferences on the courthouse steps, I look at

34:37

it very carefully because some lawyers

34:40

go too far and the things they say, they sometimes

34:42

say some pretty ridiculous things. They

34:44

will make guarantees that their client is innocent,

34:47

and they look forward to fighting it tooth and nail,

34:49

and then the next thing you know, they're a month and a half later,

34:51

though there are pleading guilty. Why

34:53

would you come out and say that if you know that there's

34:56

a chance you might wind up pleading guilty

34:58

next month. When it comes to high

35:00

profile or media cases, a lot

35:02

of times it's best to just not say anything, because,

35:04

especially early on in the case, you don't know what's going on.

35:07

You're still gathering information, and what you're

35:09

being told may or may not wind

35:11

up being the case ten minutes or

35:13

ten weeks from now. Do

35:15

you guys have pet peeves about

35:18

the way people talk about the criminal justice

35:20

system or maybe using legal terms

35:22

wrong, something that just really gets under your

35:24

skin. You hear

35:26

the people say, well, proof beyond the shadow

35:28

of a doubt or proof beyond all doubt, and

35:31

it's really common, and it's and I shouldn't be so

35:33

critical about it because it is a legal

35:35

term of art, but it's it's not it's not

35:37

accurate. There's no requirement anybody prove

35:39

anything beyond the shadow of that What the hell does that even

35:42

mean? But I do have a bigger pet peeve

35:44

about the system in general, to all the judges

35:46

who might be listening to this or whoever know

35:48

me. What I won't say to your face, but I might

35:51

be thinking when I'm in your courtroom is stop

35:53

wasting our time. And I'm referring

35:56

to not just my time, but my client's

35:58

time, their families time, the prosecutor's

36:01

time, all the other people in the courtroom

36:03

there time. I've had things that have happened

36:05

recently where I'm in court for eight hours

36:08

to accomplish something that should take eight

36:10

minutes. When we talk about our system

36:12

is inefficient and there's not enough judges, there's

36:15

not enough resources, I'm thinking to myself, well, why

36:17

don't we just use the resources that we have

36:19

more wisely? Time wasting

36:21

is a big piece of this. This is

36:24

one of my major pet peeves

36:26

about the system in general, one of those

36:28

like this meeting could have been an email situations,

36:31

except it's lasted eight hours and

36:33

you've held all of this captive your honor in

36:35

this courtroom. Unnecessarily talk about

36:37

faults imprisonment. Judges know something about

36:39

that, How dothen do you have any pet peeves?

36:42

Sure? I don't like it. When people who

36:44

have never been to law school cite

36:47

me some article they read on

36:49

the internet written by someone

36:51

who probably sixteen years old, about

36:53

how the best way to proceed in this case

36:55

is and say, look, relax,

37:00

the words in that article that you're quoting

37:02

to me aren't even spelled correctly. I

37:04

don't think the legal principles under writing

37:06

them aren't correct either. Let us try

37:08

to find the best way to proceed. Okay, we

37:11

we know what we're doing. And sometimes you

37:13

know, you have parents who are very, very very involved.

37:15

Quite frankly, some of the best clients

37:18

are the ones that have been, unfortunately been in the

37:20

justice system so long because they know the game. They

37:22

know it. They don't call all the time. They let

37:24

you work the case, and they know that you're going to

37:26

do a good job. I told someone

37:29

a couple of weeks ago, I talked to them about three

37:31

times in one week and there was absolutely nothing

37:33

really to report. And then find ways said, look,

37:35

I can call you and we can talk about the Chicago

37:37

Bears for an hour if you want to. I love

37:40

the Bears, all right, but at some point you're

37:42

taking away you're taking away my time

37:44

to be able to work on your case. That

37:46

kind of annoys me a little bit. Another

37:48

one that that I hear a lot is like, oh, the police

37:51

trapped me. Well, what do

37:53

you mean they trapped you? We don't know they trapped me.

37:55

You know they did this. I'm like, oh, you mean they caught

37:57

you. And so, you

38:00

know, entrapment is maybe what they're thinking

38:02

of. But there's all these misperceptions.

38:05

Most things are not entrapment. In fact, very few

38:07

things are. Merely providing

38:09

someone with an opportunity to commit a crime

38:11

that they might be otherwise inclined

38:14

to commit is not entrapment. So I've

38:16

actually seen this happen when I was a prosecutor.

38:18

But if the police officer is selling little

38:20

bits of soap undercover

38:23

on the street corner, telling you that it's cracked

38:25

cocaine, and you buy it, they have not trapped

38:28

you. They have provided you with

38:30

an opportunity to do something, and

38:32

then they've arrested you. So that that's a

38:34

little bit of an extreme example, but but I

38:36

hear that a good bit. Well they trapped me, now they didn't

38:38

trap you. They call you. Another thing I

38:41

just thought about was when clients don't

38:43

tell you the truth, there's a privilege

38:45

there exercise. It's funny. I

38:47

remember there was a case up that I was sitting

38:49

in and up north a lawyer, a very high

38:51

price lawyer from Chicago, came down to the probable

38:54

cause hearing and his his client had not told

38:56

them what had really happened, and so we could

38:58

go for the hearing. And he goes into the side

39:00

room where he and his client were talking, screaming

39:03

obscenities, basically told them, I'll

39:05

tell you what's a good idea. Why don't you drive your

39:07

car right into the police station, show

39:10

them the drugs, showing the guns. In that way, they can

39:12

arrest you very, very easily. You're

39:14

not told the right information, sometimes it hurts

39:16

the person who's been who's been charged. Yeah, you should

39:18

never talk to the police, but you should always talk

39:20

to your lawyer, and you should always tell

39:22

the truth to your lawyer, because if you don't,

39:25

they can't help you. In fact, if they've got the wrong

39:27

information, they may make tactical or

39:29

strategic moves that are not in your best

39:31

interests. I will

39:33

say one of the things I've learned the most from

39:36

working on this is never talked to the police.

39:39

If you're accused of a crime. When do

39:41

you have to say anything? Never?

39:44

You never have to say anything. You don't even have to tell

39:46

him your name. You may not be able to post bond

39:48

until you give them enough information to proceed

39:51

with booking, but you don't really have

39:53

to say anything. I had a case once where

39:55

someone was accused of obstructing

39:57

a law enforcement officer because they would

39:59

not talk to them. This person

40:02

was actually arrested posted bond, and you know, the

40:04

charge eventually got dismissed, and that the prosecutor

40:06

just was laughing about it was like, I can't because

40:08

it was hysterically funny in the sense that

40:11

it was something so obvious. You know,

40:13

you can't arrest somebody for not talking to the police.

40:15

They have an absolute constitutional right. Now. It wasn't

40:17

funny that they got arrested. That wasn't why we were laughing,

40:20

but it was just so obviously wrong.

40:22

Even the prosecutor didn't bat night dropping

40:24

that charge. I

40:26

want to thank everybody for making

40:29

this season really, really good.

40:31

I think we've opened up a lot of topics

40:34

for discussion that needed to

40:36

be open, and I hope that we will continue

40:38

to build on it. But if it weren't for

40:40

the people who have subscribed and listened, none

40:42

of this would be possible. So I just want to say thanks

40:45

to to everybody, not only our

40:47

listeners, but also to you folks who

40:49

have helped with production. I want to say

40:52

thanks to everybody who has participated

40:54

this season as a as a guest

40:56

and has provided their time and their expertise

40:58

to give us some really eight interviews, because

41:01

without all of those pieces

41:03

in place, we couldn't have put this together. And I think it's

41:05

been awesome. So thanks to all those

41:08

folks collectively, and

41:10

with that, I guess that's a wrap on season two

41:12

of Sworn. Sworn

41:17

is a production of Tenderfoot TV and

41:19

I Heart Radio. Our lead producer

41:21

is Christina Dana. Executive

41:24

producers are Payne Lindsay and Donald

41:26

Albright for Tenderfoot TV, Matt

41:29

Frederick and Alex Williams for I Heart

41:31

Radio, and myself Philip

41:33

Holloway. Additional production by

41:35

Trevor Young, Mason Lindsay,

41:37

Mike Rooney, Jamie Albright

41:40

and Hallie Beadal. Original music

41:42

and sound designed by Makeup and Vanity

41:44

Set. Our theme song is Blood

41:47

in the Water by Layup. Show

41:49

art and design is by Trevor

41:51

Eisler, editing by Christina

41:53

Dana, mixing and mastering by

41:55

Mike Rooney and Cooper Skinner. Special

41:58

thanks to the team at Heart Radio

42:01

from U T a or In Rosenbound

42:04

and Grace Royer, Ryan

42:06

Nord and Matthew Papa

42:08

from the Nord Group that Media

42:10

and Marketing and Station sixteen. I'd

42:13

also like to extend a very personal

42:15

and special thanks to all of our

42:17

contributors and guests who have helped to

42:20

make all of these episodes possible.

42:22

You can find Sworn on Facebook,

42:24

Twitter, and Instagram at Sworn

42:27

podcast and follow me your

42:29

host, Philip Halloway on Twitter at

42:32

phil Holloway e s Q. Our

42:34

website is sworn podcast dot

42:36

com, and you can check out other Tenderfoot

42:39

TV podcasts at www

42:42

dot tenderfoot dot tv. If

42:44

you have questions or comments, you can email

42:47

us at Sworn at tenderfoot

42:49

dot tv or leave us

42:52

a voicemail at four zero

42:54

four for one zero zero

42:57

four four one. As always,

42:59

thanks for listening.