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[This podcast contains discussion of Canada’s residential school system. Please take care while listening. Resources for support are available on our website should you need them.] Ry Moran: On May 31st, 2015, I was walking towards City Hall in Ottawa, Canada, surrounded by a crowd of tens of thousands. As far in front and behind me as I could see, Survivors, families of Survivors, community members, elected officials, church congregants - Canadians of all walks of life - were marching together in the spirit of Truth and Reconciliation. [music begins playing] We passed Victoria Island, where the sacred fire burned strong. Past Library and Archives Canada, where millions of hard fought for documents poured over by TRC staff were still housed. [sounds of the crowd] Past the Supreme Court, where in a few short years we’d be debating the fate over the preservation or destruction of residential school Survivor statements. People were holding signs reading ‘We are all in this together,’ and ‘It’s time for hope.’ The feeling of the past, present, and future coming together was almost tangible. This Walk for Reconciliation was part of the events that closed the Truth and Reconciliation Commission - a culmination of over six years of work, documenting the truths of residential school Survivors through thousands of hours of statements, millions of documents, and countless events across the country. Days later, I was standing in the back of a packed banquet hall in an Ottawa hotel, awaiting the release of the Commission’s findings. Sage and sweetgrass smoldered in bowls in front of the hotel, while spontaneous round dances erupted in the lobby.   People crowded into the room. Some sat on the floor, while others spilled out into the hallway.  Gathered there on that historic day, we all watched the Commissioners take the stage, and listened as Commissioner Murray Sinclair released some of the most devastating findings. [clip of Murray Sinclair] “Today, I stand before you and acknowledge that what took place in residential schools amounts to nothing short of cultural genocide.”  Ry Moran: Listening to the coverage of this event, many across this country learned for the first time of the genocide committed by the Canadian settler state against Indigenous peoples, and the role residential schools played in that violence.    [clip of Murray Sinclair] “There was nothing less than a systematic and concerted attempt to extinguish the spirit of Aboriginal peoples. But as the survivors have shown us they have survived. They are still here.”  Ry Moran: These were hard truths that shocked many across this country into awareness about Canada’s human rights record. But it also highlighted the strength of Survivors, their courage and dedication to truth-telling, and how Indigenous peoples were succeeding in holding the churches and government to account. Addressing the crowd and the country, Commissioner Sinclair described the challenge that lay ahead.  [clip of Murray Sinclair] “We must endeavor instead to become a society that champions human rights, truth and tolerance, not by avoiding a dark history but rather by confronting it.  To become this society. We need to bear witness to the past, and to join in a vision for the future. This must be the goal of reconciliation.  As commissioners, we have described for you a mountain. We have shown you the path to the top. We call upon you to do the climbing.”  Ry Moran: But in that same building where we were gathered, just several floors above us, staff from the National Centre for Truth and Reconciliation were still recording the statements of Survivors. Because there was still so much work to be done, truths still to be shared, silences to be shattered. Even today, statement gathering efforts are ongoing. Seven years have passed since those weighty days in Ottawa. Yet so many of the foundational truths haven’t reached mainstream consciousness. Both here in Canada and abroad, there is still a profound lack of understanding of the lived experiences of Indigenous peoples. Many are still unaware of the violence and genocide that created our country, and the ongoing, present-day effects of colonialism. Why is it so hard for the truths of Indigenous peoples to be heard? What are the roadblocks to truth-telling? And what can we do about them? My name is Ry Moran. My traditional name is Waabiginew, which translates into White Golden Eagle. Through my dad’s side I am Métis with roots in the red river – in the community of St. Francois Xavier where my family took scrip. On my mother’s side settler Canadian with Scottish and English roots.   I have worked on efforts to preserve and protect Indigenous truths for going on two decades now. From my time spent working on oral histories and languages, through my time as director of statement gathering with the Truth and Reconciliation Commission and later as director of the National Centre for Truth and Reconciliation, my belief in the importance of truth has been constant. I’m continuing all of this work today as a Librarian at the University of Victoria.  In this podcast, we’ll hear from a diversity of Indigenous and non-Indigenous voices from across Canada and beyond. Carey Newman:    And the intention was to assimilate and erase Indigenous identity, which is the very definition of genocide.       Lawrence Hill:    There was a willful attempt to exterminate a history and memory and a possibility of even knowing.    Val Napoleon:    To continue a Canada without Indigenous law is to continue the colonization of Indigenous peoples in Canada      Ry Moran: We’re also going to celebrate the vital work of those who have fought tirelessly to make important truths known.  Paulette Steeves:    But the more work that we can all do, to discuss these truths, right and to get these truths are acknowledged in the public, the more that we can add and open those paths to healing.    Barney Williams:    I never gave up telling my story that in the hopes that somebody would hear the truth and accept it.  Ry Moran: Welcome to Taapwaywin: Talking about what we know and what we believe, a podcast from the territories of the lək̓ʷəŋən peoples, and the libraries and archives of the University of Victoria.     So join me, as we climb this mountain together. [music fades] Ry Moran: In late December of last year, I was ensconced in a tiny basement recording studio in the Student Union Building at the University. Across from me sitting relaxed in an old chair was Barney Williams – the very first person we were talking to for this project. Barney Williams: Well, I guess it's important to introduce myself with my traditional name, which is Klith-wii-taa, and it was a name given to me by my late uncle Alec Franco who was one of the hereditary chiefs in my area, and the name was given after an incident in Ottawa when I got really sick, and uncle heard about it. So, when I got home, they had a big feast and he said, 'hey, you need to change your name because you had a close call.' And my English name of course, is Barney Williams, named after my late father. Ry Moran: Barney is many things; an elder, a former social worker, a fluent Nuu-chah-nulth speaker, and a dear friend.--- Barney Williams: I'm from Tla-o-qui-aht First Nations on west coast of Vancouver Island. I spent most of my life away after res, for work, and I left home - I think I left 1966, lived away since. Ry Moran: I first met Barney through the TRC, and over the course of the following years, we criss-crossed the country with the Truth and Reconciliation Commission together. Barney was a member of the Survivor’s Committee and also served as one of the Elders to the TRC. For me, any project about truth needed to begin with Barney. Ry Moran: You know, how would you say truth in your own language? In Nuu-chah-nulth? Is there, is there a word for that even? Barney Williams: Yeah, there is, I’ll have to think about it, but I know that in growing up in my Granny's house, it was really important to - to be always truthful. She used to say [NUU-CHAH-NULTH], which means that you always speak the truth when you're - when you're talking to someone about whether it's something that you've done or something that's going on or - but always be honest, and it comes from the heart. I think that my understanding and teaching around truth was it - it comes from the heart. If it doesn't come from the heart, and it's not the truth. Ry Moran: When asking big questions or going about important work – or even when faced with an important decision to make – I have been taught to the wise ones, the elders. To listen to the teachings they share, and to really ensure I am grounding myself in those important lessons. Ry Moran: What are the responsibilities that come along with an opportunity like this, from your perspective? When we think about exploring the truth, we're going to talk to people – do you have any particular thoughts on just a good way of doing this type of work? Barney Williams: For me, I think it's always for me, it's always - it begins with the foundation of respect, right? The ability to be respectful of self, so you can respect other people. Ry Moran: The conversations in this episode are the ones that have really stayed with me as we have carried ourselves throughout this entire project. They have provided the foundation for our work and shaped our approach and perspectives on how we’re even going to ask the questions around truth-telling activities. Barney Williams: We talk about self-first. As I know, if we don't want to respect ourselves, I would find it really challenging to respect other people. So conversations, I believe should - should be started from that foundation - that foundation of respecting one another, respecting other people so that whatever the teaching is, whether it be teaching of our traditions, or protocol of the nations, or speaking the truth, truth telling, and all the things that make for a really good conversation. Ry Moran: It was also critically important for me to speak to Barney because of his lived experiences. Barney is a Survivor. One of the hundreds of thousands of First nations, Inuit, and Métis children who were forced to attend residential or day schools across this country. He spent 13 years in residential schools on Vancouver Island and on the mainland. Barney Williams: The thing about truth, in my own experience, in having been in residential - and talking about what happened, years ago prior to the commission, prior to residential school stuff that people that sometimes laughed or said 'oh, yeah right, those guys never did those kinds of things.' And 'you shouldn't be telling lies,' right? And I didn't have the opportunity to explain that what I was saying was the truth. I was telling the truth because it needed to be heard. So, truth, according to the elders, comes from the essence of your spirit, [NUU-CHAH-NULTH] or your heart, it's coming from there, then it's going to be impactful. And I find that I mean, I - I never gave up telling my story that - in the hopes that somebody would hear the truth and accept it. Ry Moran: It's interesting, because - there's the truth, and then there's being believed. Because, as you said, you've been telling the truth all along. It's just nobody's been listening. Barney Williams: Now, classic example again is the grave sites. Okay, when I got the news, of course I was devastated because I went to high school in Kamloops. Ry Moran: In the summer of 2021, 215 unmarked graves of children that attended the Kamploops Residental School where discovered Barney Williams: I always knew that there were things going on. I already talked about it, but nobody listened again. And the whole country can really now say, 'well, you know, what, we can't challenge that, it's - there's 215 graves that are there. ' So - so it was a lesson learned for them as well. [music transition] Ry Moran: This past December I was scrolling through Facebook when I came across a post by an Indigenous archaeologist. It showed a map of Canada littered in dots and numbers. The accompanying text read, quote “I built a database of residential schools, Indian Day Schools, and Indian Hospitals in Canada dating from 1620 to recent. 865 colonial institutions, a starting place of truth-telling.” Paulette Steeves: Tanisi, hello, my name is Dr. Paulette Steeves, I'm Cree-Métis. I'm a professor in Anthropology and Sociology at Algoma University and Canada Research Chair in Indigenous history, healing, and reconciliation. Ry Moran: Paulette is the researcher behind the Canadian Residential Schools & Colonial Institutions Database. She was motivated to begin this project when she began noticing that government statements typically or placed the inception of the residential school system in the 1880s. Paulette Steeves:  And I'm like, but wait, I was reading a document from a Native American educational group in the United States, and they clearly stated that the first school in the US was opened in 1580, and in Canada, in 1620. So why is our federal government saying, you know, the late 1800s? I'm like, 'that doesn't make sense'. So I started researching it and looking into residential schools and colonial institutions like day schools, and hospitals, and industrial schools, and realized that it's much bigger than the federal government has admitted. They don't teach the fact, they teach what fits the nation state Ry Moran: At the time of our conversation her map had grown to include over 900 colonial institutions, and she’s only learning more as time progresses. Paulette Steeves: One thing I just realized this week, too, for from another lady speaking to me from Penticton, she was in a residential school there that was called a convent. So now I’ve realized, wow, I remember when I was five years old, going to visit my older sister in a convent in Vancouver. It was a residential school, but they call it a convent. So now I'm like, holy, how many more sites are there we don't know about because they weren't listed in the federal registry as a residential school, but they were a residential school in a convent or attached to a convent. So I know that the list of sites we have is definitely going to grow. Ry Moran: But the stakes are higher than just ensuring the historical record reflects the full breadth and scale of the residential school system. Paulette Steeves: And that relates most importantly to unmarked graves. So if we're going to look for unmarked graves, we need to know where to look. And if we only look at the sites the federal government talks about, we're not - we're gonna leave a lot of children behind. And that just really, really got to me, it just sent chills up my spine. I'm like, 'no, that's not going to happen'. [music] Ry Moran: The need for Paulette’s work reflects a number of central questions I’ve been wrestling with – namely what truths still need to be uncovered, and why have others been ignored for so long? Robina Thomas: It's hard for folks to believe that those things could happen because it's almost humanly impossible to conceive of such wickedness, of such horrible, horrible acts by one human being against another human being. Ry Moran: Robina Thomas, Qwul’sih’yah’maht, is the formidable Vice-President, Indigenous here at UVic.  Robina Thomas: [hən̓q̓əmin̓əm̓ introduction]. Ry Moran: Robina is of Snuy’ney’muxw and Stó:lō ancestry, and Lyackson through marriage. She’s worked as an educator here at the university in the school of social work. One of the numerous topics occupying her teaching and research has been residential schools. Robina Thomas:  But when I'm talking to students, I say, we need to look at the policies and the practices, we need to accept the fact that you weren't there that day, you weren't there to enact these policies and practices, but they were in place. So our responsibility, your responsibility, as a Canadian, is to own that those were Canadian policies and practices. And, and then we can fight against the policies and practices. Paulette Steeves: I know it's very painful for First Nations and Métis and Inuit. And I know that every single First Nations Métis Inuit person today is a first or second or third or even fourth generation Survivor. And I think it's really important—it's a - it's an amazing time of learning, for your average Canadian citizen about the level of genocide and colonization within Canada. Robina Thomas:  We have to think about how we get people to believe that this is the truth. But how do you get to that place where people can move past their own fear, their own inability to hear - their own inability to feel - to let these stories be told, and let the truth be told, and let us move forward with it. And so there's a lot of work that we still need to do in that, in that real gray area, in between where we know the truth is that we're not getting to in in the way that we really need to, to move forward. In a good way. [music] Paulette Steeves: I think, for Canada, the huge wakeup call is that we don't have an issue telling the truth. Yes, the federal government and educators would never speak about it and it's being erased from history. And now we're - we're un-erasing that history. And that's a part of healing and reconciliation, you have to be able to give public testimony about what you've suffered, or your community or family suffered to begin that healing process, it has to be acknowledged. Barney Williams: For me, I guess I've always - I've always maintained that I would always tell the truth, no matter what the consequences. If I had to pay a price for it, then so be it. And I think, in witnessing that with my Granny and Grandpa and all the elders that I met, and how they sometimes will talk about stuff that was really hurtful, but at the same time, they said, was [NUU-CHAH-NULTH], we have to do this. We have to tell the truth. [music transition] Ry Moran: For her PhD Dissertation, Robina interviewed 13 Coast Salish women. Robina Thomas: One of the themes that came out of that, and one of the themes that was shared by all 13 women – obviously in different in different terminology – but all of them talked about how critically important it is to keep the past, the present and the future connected at all times. And in our language. It's [hən̓q̓əmin̓əm̓], which is sacred, [hən̓q̓əmin̓əm̓], and [hən̓q̓əmin̓əm̓] Ry Moran: She called this concept ‘the sacred cycle.’ Though ‘cycle’ doesn’t translate wholly between English and hən̓q̓əmin̓əm̓ - Robina Thomas: It actually means to kind of slowly stop and turn and look backwards, and then look forward again. And so we don't have a word that transfers nicely, but that's as close as we could and I actually thought that was really appropriate that there isn't, you know, a term for this, but this whole notion of just slowly looking over your shoulder or looking back. And when I would ask about this, they would, everyone would say, "Robina, we have to, we have to maintain our language, we have to maintain our culture in our tradition." And in my language, we have a term called [hən̓q̓əmin̓əm̓], [hən̓q̓əmin̓əm̓] is a collective term like our, our philosophy of life, it's our teachings, you know, there's all kinds of ways of looking at it. But collectively, all of these teachings are in place to make us the best human beings we can possibly be. So if we lose the language, we're actually going to start to lose teachings. And, and so it's really important that we don't lose the language. Ry Moran: Language too is bound up in the intricacies surrounding truth. Robina Thomas: I had the good fortune, only about, I would say a month ago, to be sitting in a student defense. And when we were done, and all the all the academic work was done, her father asked for an opportunity to speak. And then he said, you have just witnessed [kʷo:kʷihem], [kʷo:kʷihem]. And then he went on to say, you've - you've witnessed an example of someone sharing their truth, or telling a true or a real story. So [kʷo:kʷihem] is true or real [kʷi:kʷihem] is storytelling. And him linking the story of his daughter's experience in an Indian Day School, to [kʷo:kʷihem], this truth-telling. And that one word - that one change - from [kʷi] to [kʷo] stopped me in my tracks. And so for me, I've been sitting with that, and sitting with those stories that make our lives, are the truth. “Truth" to me is, is in the words of the elders, it's in the words of the, of the storytellers, the knowledge keepers. That's where truth is. It's in our communities, it's in our, our stories, our creation stories, it's in the name of land, like, rarely is there a name, that doesn't mean something that talks about how specific a rock is, or a mountain is or a road, or a river. Our words tell us those stories, they tell us that truth. And so I think that, for me, truth has all of a sudden become so much more powerful, and so much more rooted in Indigenous ways of knowing and being. [music transition] Norman Fleury: There's not many of us speakers - fluent speakers, like Norman Fleury, that speaks not only Michif but I speak six other languages. And that's who we were as Michifs. We spoke all the language of the plains of our ancestors. We spoke Saulteaux, we spoke Assiniboine, Sioux, Cree, French. But the English we didn't speak because we weren't not strong - our ancestry or genealogy – we’re not English. Ry Moran: Norman Fleury is an old friend. Norman Fleury: Norman Fleury, [Michif introduction]. My name is Norman Fleury and I work at the University of Saskatchewan. As an elder I also teach Michif. I work with schools across the province, North, Central and South as a language keeper. Also a Knowledge Keeper. I'm also working for the – both Metis Nation Saskatchewan as an elder also as a teacher but also at the University. I'm an elder and faculty and staff at the University of Saskatchewan. Ry Moran: He's someone I’ve known since I was fairly young. Norman Fleury 00:32 We met, I could remember that vividly in Winnipeg, when you were with your parents, and your sister, and you came to an elder youth conference. And, and we kind of hit her off. [laughter] Ry Moran: When I first met Norman, I trying to unpack the Metis histories of my family. Our relationship was instrumental in connecting a number of critical pieces in my own understanding of where I came from and who I was. Norman Fleury: But you were wanted to expand on, on more research, to know the history and the culture and the language, the identity piece. Ry Moran: Norman has played an essential role in the protection and promotion of Michif. He’s a world leading expert in the language. When I asked him about the relationship between language and truth, he recounted his own experiences trying to come up with a name on a task force he was a part of. Norman Fleury: Well, when I'm at the university, we have a committee and we have some Cree, a Saulteaux, and Michifs. So we said, "we're going to find a word that's going to hold us together. And that's the truth.” That's the word came up through this one person. They had a ceremony and this word came up through that - through the spirits of the truth. So he said "debwewin" that’s in Saulteaux "debwewin", in Cree it's "tepwewin", and Michif its "tapwewin". So that's the word we use on this task force. The Elders Task Force - the truth. Ry Moran: Norman described for us the way which Michif brings truth to life. Norman Fleury: I remember when I was a kid, when we'd walk through the bush, you could feel the feeling of those leaves under your feet. And as soon as you hear a sound, you knew that sound because we had a relationship. We knew each other. So, [Michif] 'to understand'. And when you talk about taapwaywin it's also to believe, you know, it's believing its truth, but it's also in [Michif]. And 'I believe it', you see. And when you say I believe in something, you got to make sure what you're saying is I believe that, okay. So that's why at home when we spoke, you spoke with powerful words. You didn't speak just just to speak. You have to use [Michif] 'good words' [Michif] 'strong words' [Michif]. Well when you live something for generations and generations, you know, it's the truth, or you wouldn't live it. And my grandfather used to tell us stories, those are were his, the stories that he got from his grandparents. They lived it. That's the difference. You didn't have to talk about it, you lived it. It was vivid, you know what I mean? [music transition] Ry Moran: I think, so much of what we're talking about here is our responsibilities, they’re ways of walking in the world, there're truths that we see. There's truth that we uphold. I don’t know, And I even personally reflect back on some of the teachings from dear elder Silvia, from back in Winnipeg, and she always reminded me [Michif] walk slowly, don't run when you're traveling over rocks. Robina Thomas: You know, and we don't use storytelling obviously the same way that we used to use it years and years ago, and Auggie Sylvester from Penelakut, you know shared a wild woman story with me and, we were taught as children that there was a wild woman [hən̓q̓əmin̓əm̓] and she lived in the mountains, and she was she was mean and ugly and stinky and, and she could fly. And she had a basket on her back. And she would come around the village looking for children. And it sounds horrible. And you think why would you tell children this story? But what they told that they, as they told the story was, you need to make sure you're home before it's dark. And so they would tell children when, when the sun gets when the sun starts going down, you need to know you need to pay attention, because how long is it going to take you to get home? And so pay attention because you need to be home before it's dark. And so they told you all of the things, they told you to pay attention to your surroundings, and they guided and directed you not to take dangerous routes And they taught you all of the things about your surroundings, so you could get home safely. And wild woman was aware of making sure that you were that you were worried. And you had to get home. Ry Moran: It's - storytelling is not just about the information, it's about what it sets up as well. And it sets up a relationship, it sets up a visit and it sets up an exchange that, you know, it's it's a, it's an offering, it's a gift and it's not about which word is more, right it's it's an opportunity to reflect and and enjoy these stories, and then to think about what that leaves in our minds afterwards. Robina Thomas: You know, I think about how intentional storytelling was, and purposeful. You didn't just tell stories to kill time. You told stories to teach. You told stories to protect. Your told stories, to keep our communities rooted in their culture and tradition, to know their creation stories to know where they came from, to know that the land where they came from. And so it was so purposeful, and so intentional, and we just need to remember. Norman Fleury: nobody will tell you a story. Just to tell you a story. They have to feel in their own minds. And so I think it's, it'll be safe for me to share with this person. For me to tell my story today, if I didn't know you, and for all these years and didn't respect you, I wouldn't tell you the story. Because where is it going to go? Is it going away someplace? Is my voice going to be gone? Out all over the place after I'm gone, you know? You got to protect your voice. Especially when you're going to talk about things that are really mean a lot to you. It takes a lot to give something away. Ry Moran: During our conversation with Norman, I asked him about the responsibilities we would need to be mindful of as we carried the stories throughout this podcast. Norman Fleury: You gotta be careful how you talk about things. Because you can hurt yourselves more than you can do yourself any good sometime. All these things we're talking about now, it's all about words. Words matter. Words are very important. Like we talked about taapwaywin, [Michif], you know, we talk about [Michif] we talk about [Michif] all these words he's talking about? [Michif]. So they talked about [Michif] 'to speak right' [Michif] 'don't lie'. And [Michif] that means 'don't disrespect a human being'. If we want to leave a legacy if we want to leave something, because what we're saying is we're saying let's not ever let that happen again. So what do we put there to be able to deter that from ever happening again, you know. [music transition] Ry Moran: Towards the end of our visit with Norman, I asked him if he had any thoughts on what we might call this project? Something that reflected both our goals and responsibilities in truth-telling. Norman Fleury: Like for me, I would call it [Michif]. My story. And you're talking about everybody else too or no? Ry Moran: Yeah, we're talking to a lot of different people, actually. So we've talked to people here. So we've talked to Coast-Salish people, Haida, Kwakwaka'wakw, Nuu-chah-nulth, Cree, Michif, Inuk- Norman Fleury: [Michif] talking about what we know' - because that's what we're doing, we're talking about what we know. But you wouldn't want it specifically or... Ry Moran: I mean, that's interesting. How if we were to just slow that down a bit, how would you say that again? Norman Fleury: [Michif] 'Telling about what we know' doesn't have to be specific about because that's what we're doing. Ry Moran: That's what we're doing. We're talking about the things that we know about this complicated topic of truth. Norman Fleury: Yeah. Because if you're saying, [Michif] 'talking about what we know and what we believe'. Three different ways... [Michif] what we're talking about. [Michif] telling it [Michif] what we know [Michif] what we believe. [music] Ry Moran: When I worked at the Truth and Reconciliation Commission each of our National Events was themed around one of the seven sacred teachings, principles that are essential to the ongoing work of healing underway across Turtle Island. These teachings encompass the values of respect, courage, wisdom, love, honesty, humility, and truth. I have come to know through these teachings that truth does not exist on its own in these teachings. A practice and approach of truthfulness is grounded in a balance of all these principles operating in relationship with each other. I think as I’ve walked further on this path myself, those teachings of respect and humility really remind me that there is so much to know, and still so much I have to learn. In honour of the conversation had during this episode, we've decided to call this podcast series Taapwaywin: Talking about what we know and what we believe. [upbeat music begins] Over the course of this season, we’re taking a deep dive into truth, through a different topic within each episode. We’re talking about everything from art and museums – Marenka Thompson-Odlum: I love museums - but I'm also very conscious of the fact that museums are colonial in their like, very, like definition. Heather Igloliorte: The knowledge is all there in the visual artwork, and it's just for us to unlock that puzzle. Ry Moran: To the suppression of documents and history – Marion Buller: Fear with the truth coming out of people knowing of the public knowing what actually happened. Because if people don't know, they can't hold you to account. Paulette Steeves: And what was done with that? Well, the federal government wants to burn all those records and destroy them. Ry Moran: To the history behind people and place names – Daryl Kootenay: It really started to paint a clear picture, that the people that came here named these places after themselves. Robina Thomas: And so when you take away our names, and you take away the opportunities to share those stories, you take away with that all of the responsibility that those names carry as well.  Ry Moran: The Commissioners described a mountain ahead on this path of reconciliation. It is clear the climb has already started. What is also clear is that truth remains a powerful force, one that must come before reconciliation. I look forward to our visits together through this podcast series. Thanks for listening. Until next time. -- This podcast created through the direct team work of an incredible group of people. It was written and produced by Karina Greenwood and myself, editing and consulting by Cassidy Villebrun-Buracas, mixing and mastering by Matteus Liete, and music by myself, Ry Moran. Special thanks to the University of Victoria Libraries team that assisted in countless ways on this production, and to MediaOne for audio content. Maarsi to our guests Barney Williams, Paulette Steeves, Robina Thomas, and Norman Fleury. Taapwaywin is made possible through the University of Victoria Strategic Framework Impact fund, and with direct support from the University of Victoria Libraries and CFUV Radio. This podcast was created on unceded lək̓ʷəŋən and WSÁNEĆ territories.