Just because you re copywriting for a business audience doesn t mean you can t use colour, description and dialogue to punch up your writing.

Listen to this episode if

• If you d like your copywriting to hold people s attention
• You want your writing to surprise people who expect to be bored
• You d like to write better

Write like a novelist

Knowing how to fix writing is half the battle with being a good writer. Claire Scobie

Claire Scobie is an award-winning novelist and a corporate storyteller. She s also a fantastic podcast guest who in a short time packs in a huge number of writing tips. Find Claire at workstruck.com.au.

Just because you re writing for work, doesn t mean you have to be boring. 

Podcast transcript

Claire Scobie:

[0:01] Can I see how many times we can say bosoms on this podcast, Steven [laughs] .

Steven Lewis:

[inaudible 00:04] [0:05]

Claire:

[0:08] My first book was published in 2006 and it s a memoir about Tibet. I ve been working on it for a long time and I didn t know how it was going to fly. I was sent this, very scary, publicity schedule by Random House by my publicist.

[0:26] One of my first interviews was with Richard Fidler. It was an hour-long interview and I didn t know how I was going to cope with this. I drove to ABC, to the offices in Sydney, and they ushered me into the booth. It s a bit like in a sitting in a TARDIS; it s a bit like this, Steven.

[0:46] You ve got these enormous headphones on but there is nobody in the room and you re just talking to a microphone.

[0:53] I remember being incredibly nervous and this gravelly voice came on the phone. Oh, sorry, through the headphones. It was Richard Fidler, and he said, Hi Claire. How are you going? Of course I lied, I said, I m absolutely fine. I m really looking forward to this. He said, All you have to do is speak in word pictures.

[1:16] I d never heard that phrase before, but it was one of the most useful pieces of advice because it stayed with me, and I use it to this day. I always tell people, Think about using word pictures. Think about using some color, some sense of the senses to tell your stories. As soon as you do that, they come alive to people.

[1:39] The rest of the hours just flew by. I told him about my time in Tibet, about my book. I use as much as possible these very fresh images in describing people, rather than just with names, but so you could picture someone.

[1:57] For example, the nun I described her with shiny red cheeks, and wild dreadlocks. For the Chinese army officer, I described him the way he scowled at me, the way he growled. Those small things can make a huge difference when you re telling a story.

Steven:

[2:18] Welcome to Talemaking. I m Steven Lewis, Director of Taleist. Talemaking is a weekly podcast about getting your business message out, with a particular focus on the pair of storytelling, and the techniques of journalism to do that.

[2:30] My guest today is that Philosophy in human form. Claire Scobie is the award winning author of Last Seen in Lhasa , and The Pagoda Tree . She s written as a journalist for publications all over the world. She can tell us with companies on how to harness the power of storytelling as a strategic business tool.

[2:48] Basically, Claire, you should be presenting the podcast, and I should be having nothing to do with it. As it s the other way around. Firstly, welcome.

Claire:

[2:56] Thank you. Gorgeous to be here, Steven.

Steven:

[2:59] Secondly, I wanted to ask you, my first experience of a journalist writing a profile was on my boss. I was probably about 21 at that time and we were living in Hong Kong.

[3:11] My boss was this massive personality. In Hong Kong, being centrally a small town from an English speaking point of view, she would probably be profiled in a paper once every three years.

[3:22] She was a generous person. She spent a lot of time with issues, very funny, very open, very personal. This profile came out and the first thing it said about her was that it looked like she got dressed in the dark which struck me. She was obviously very upset, as you would be if you she spend a lot of money and time on your clothes. That was the assessment for the populace.

[3:45] Also having seen it from that side as a journalist, it made me very weary about describing people. How do you go about painting an accurate picture of somebody which may be 300 pounds overweight and looked like they got dressed in the dark? Do you say that?

Describing people without being unkind

Claire:

[4:02] No, I don t. I tend to be quite kind. I think there are always ways to say things. It s hard if someone is 300 pounds overweight and they looked like they have just come through a hedge backwoods, then you could be diplomatic. You can think about how you say it. You can use a metaphor, perhaps.

[4:25] In fact, I was just working with one of my clients yesterday. She described someone with a teddy bear structure. I said that doesn t work because it s a bit patronizing. We went through all the different ways of describing this person voluptuous. She said, big bosomed. I said not probably big bosomed.

Steven:

[laughs] [4:45] Because you re not writing a Jane Austen novel.

Claire:

[4:47] Yes. Then it starts to become like a bodice ripper . In the end we settled on broad shouldered and welcoming. We weren t close enough. I think she still is going to carry on working with it. You can allude to certain things without being so bold in your description.

[5:12] When I m thinking about describing people, what I always do is I always make tons of notes when I meet someone. When you re describing someone it s not just about what they look like it s also about their gestures which I always call, stage direction. Think about how you describe, how someone moves their hands. Describe their hands.

[5:34] You can always focus on one aspect of the person if you don t want to focus on their size, their clothes or their greasy hair.

[5:44] That s one thing to think about. Also think about how they speak. Really pay attention to the tone of their voice or the way they put their sentences together. Of course, think about their dialogue so you can build character and you can describe people through many different ways.

[6:01] Describing the exterior is really just the first, start. It s the first part of it. Then you want to think about how to develop character.

Getting description into corporate writing

Steven:

[6:12] Obviously, you ve written novels. You re working on a novel right now. Without description, a novel would be a very odd novel.

[6:23] In your corporate work, how important do you think description is to corporate storage? You know, The CEO strode into the room, and swayed through people as he made them redundant left and right. What is the ?

Claire:

[6:36] I think it s a time and place thing. It s not often about big description. It s not journalism, but it s often about one, or two details, perhaps, we call the telling details that bring someone to life. It can be the verb that you use just as you said.

[6:58] Verbs are much stronger. They are always what I say. They are the engines of the sentence.

[7:04] When you re thinking of describing someone, perhaps, don t just have, Walked into the room, strode in the room. Because that immediately gives a sense of purpose.

[7:13] You don t need to have full-blown purple prose description, but having enough description that the person can visualize what it is that you are saying does make a lot of difference. Even in the corporate storytelling world.

[7:27] It particularly makes a difference when you re talking about oral storytelling. Again, in your marketing copy, you might not want to have reams of description, but when we re listening to somebody, give a story, tell a story.

[7:42] Again, we want these literal images, because that s what we pick up on, that s what we visualize. That s what we remember much better than if things are very stark.

Steven:

[7:52] I m picturing now the big bosom of the CEO striding into the room. I m still captivated by the journey from teddy bear through big bosoms, to broad shouldered, and what was the word generous?

Claire:

[8:05] Generous. She was describing a hug. This is somebody who s working on a memoir, so it s not a corporate client of mine. A lot of it was straight back. In fact, what we did was we added more dialogue to show the character more than just describe her big bosoms. [chuckles] Can I see how many times we can say bosoms on this podcast?

Steven:

[8:31] It s been a long time since I said bosoms. It s a muscle I m starting to exercise, but what you ve hit on though is the process of drafting which I having worked in corporate world, think happens too little.

[8:46] What happens in corporate world is you go through a draft for correctness of what is being said. No, the figure should be 36, not 42.

[8:57] First drafts are famously known to be shit, and they re particularly Actually, I d say they are particularly shit. I m talking about my own now.

Claire:

[9:06] Well, I think so said Hemingway. I mean, so said a lot of writers.

Improving writing with better verb choice

Steven:

[9:11] In my case, one of the things that makes my first drafts particularly weak is my verb choice, because the first verb that comes to your mind is generally not the correct. It s the easiest verb, and therefore it s the worst one to choose.

Claire:

[9:24] Yes. Another thing, there s a couple of things to pick up on there. First of all, yes, you need to do drafts, and that s something that even when I run workshops for writers, they don t always realize.

[9:38] People come to my workshops, and they ll say, I thought I d just get it right first time. I say, Well, if you re a cabinet maker, and you ve never made a cabinet, would you get it right first time? If you re a painter, would you know how to do perspective first time? No. It s the same with writing.

[9:55] I think that is equally irrelevant whether it s in the corporate sphere, or not. Thinking about how you re crafting something does take some time. Often, you need to layer it in, so maybe the first draft you write is very basic.

[10:11] The verbs you use are very basic, but then with the second draft, and probably the third draft, ideally, that s probably enough. You don t have time to do too many more drafts. You re not writing a novel.

[10:22] Then by the third go, though, you want to have laid in the other aspects of the story, so it s not just the facts and figures. You ve also got a sense of telling the story if you re going to use storytelling.

[10:35] Now, as far as using verbs, and strong verbs, something I often ask people is, If I asked you to draw a cat, how would you draw a cat?

[10:45] Most people say, Well, I d draw a circle with two triangles as their ears, and eye, nose, whiskers. That is a symbol of a cat. It s not actually a cat. Just like clichés are symbols of what you re trying to say. So, it doesn t matter, in the first draft, if you have boring verbs, if you have clichés, if you even big bosoms. It doesn t matter. You got it in the first draft.

[11:13] But, then, it s only a symbol of what you are trying to say. Then, you think about how to make that come to life more vividly.

Steven:

[11:21] I use a building metaphor, with ghostwriting clients. So, when I m ghost writing a book for them, I say, The first thing I m going to do is I m going to go away. I m going to give you back a draft. It s really going to have none of the description and none of that in it.

[11:32] It s going to be about, whether I have got your facts and figures in your model and the stuff that you want to get across correct. Then, the process, it s like building a house. That s the structure

Claire:

[11:41] Right.

Steven:

[11:41] Then, we put on the walls. Then, we put on the first layer of paint, the second layer of paint, which is what you are describing.

[11:46] It s, of course, ludicrous that I would use a building metaphor. I know nothing about building. For all I know, houses are built completely differently, but it is that wash isn t?

[11:55] As you continually wash through and learning, perhaps, in away not to hate yourself. Well, because when you go back to that first draft, you just think to yourself, How did I possibly think that sounded OK?

Claire:

[12:07] Yes. Yes. Exactly. There is great book, by Anne Lamott, called Bird by Bird . She talks about how shitty the first draft is. But, if you don t have a shitty first draft, how can you, then, write a better second draft and a third draft.

[12:21] I think your building analogy is a good one, because it is about you build up from the basics. Then, at the end, you are giving the final polish and the final coating.

[12:33] Certainly, for me, when I m drafting, there is often a great enjoyment that comes, when I m really stripping back. I have written too much. It s a bit waffly.

[12:45] I really need to get to the point, and I call it my slash and burn phase. It s quite liberating. People get very worried about cutting words out of their stories or their copy. But, I actually find it liberating, because by doing that you are actually getting to really what the heart of it is that you are trying to say.

Steven:

[13:02] I can t remember whether I was reading Elmore Leonard s book on writing or Stephen King s book on writing, but I think both of them. But, one of them in particular, loathes adverbs.

Claire:

[13:12] Right. Yes. I think it s Elmore Leonard.

Much complaining about adverbs

Steven:

[13:17] I want a piece of software that will go through my writing, just to highlight all the adverbs, because when you start looking for them. I was editing somebody else s work, and It s the really very long car, drove really very fast . Cut it. Cut it. Cut it. Corporate writing is no different. As soon as you start writing that something is very big you ve made a mistake.

Claire:

[13:41] I have also really bug bear about adverbs, because they just slow writing down. They don t add anything, same with too many adjectives. Richard Flanagan, who won the Booker Prize this year. He described

[13:56] I heard him talking at one of the writer s festivals. He described how he wrote to his editor, and said, Please cut out any extra adjectives. You have my permission to cut them all . Again, people worry because adjectives. They think all that brings color. So, you do need some color in writing, but you don t want flowery stuff. You don t want padding.

The number of people involved in writing a book

Steven:

[14:19] Interesting, again, you got the process of writing drafts and not hating yourself, because your first draft wasn t good. Because your first draft is what gets you to your second draft, but also working with somebody else. Real proper professional Booker Prize winning writers work with other people.

Claire:

[14:36] Yes. I think that s a great point. People will read a book and think it was written, by the author. Then, of course you go to the acknowledgments, and there is a whole team behind writing that book and working with editors.

[14:50] Certainly, as a professional writer it s a great pleasure. It s a great privilege, because you know they are on your side. They are trying to improve, or they are improving whatever it is you are writing.

[15:02] In the corporate sphere, when you are writing, having someone just proofread your work, before you send something out, is incredibly valuable.

[15:10] Even if it s just a straightforward press release or a straightforward memo, but if it s an important one, just having a second pair of eyes, because there is something very strange about writing. When you are in the woods, I say, when you are in the story, it s quite difficult to get distance.

[15:29] Even though you ve read something three or four times, you can t spot the spelling mistakes. You can t spot the typos. You do need someone else to give you feedback and have a second pair of eyes looking at what you ve written.

Steven:

[15:42] Dave Cornford and I co-wrote the Taleist Self Publishing Survey, where we surveyed a thousand self-publishing authors. More than half of them claimed to have proofread their own work, which is like claiming to have proofread, to put your finger behind your eyes.

[15:58] It s not possible to proofread your own work. So, essentially, what they were saying is we have put our work out un-proofread.

Claire:

[16:05] Right. Yes. I think something I always say to people if they are going to go down this self-publishing route. If you are going to spend money, spend it on an editor. Spend it on a proofreader. That s the most important thing.

[16:18] People think they have to spend a lot of money on the cover et cetera. But, actually it s about getting the words right, because it s so disconcerting, as a reader. Once you ve lost that contract with the reader, you have lost that trust that what you are saying is correct, because you are misspelling small things. They won t trust you for the bigger things.

[16:38] That s exactly the same in the corporate sphere. If you read a few typos in a report, then you think, Well, what about the rest of it? Do I believe, the facts, and figures here? Do I believe the strategy? Do you believe the arguments? Probably not or not as much.

Finding a proofreader

Steven:

[16:54] When you are writing, you were saying earlier that you were Let s say big bosom to get the author of the infamous, now, big bosom description or nearly the author of the big bosom, until you saved her from herself.

[17:07] You ve got to find someone you trust in a corporate environment. There still needs to be an element of trust. Even if you are giving somebody your press release, to give their commentary on, you ve got to trust them not to say, My God! You are incompetent, or this is terrible . You ve got to trust them to work with you.

[17:22] How do you go about finding somebody whom you trust to collaborate on a piece of writing?

Claire:

[17:28] I think I go about it, by asking the right questions and also seeing what else they ve written. Interestingly, enough I have a writing buddy, who I work with for my fiction.

[17:45] We tried to start a writing group. We tried two or three different people. We had three or four groups of various times and in the end everyone just fell away, and it has just been us two, which has been perfect.

[17:58] We are very different. I don t think you need to find someone, who writes the same way as you, in whatever sphere, but you want to be able to trust them more than anything you want them to be able to give you honest feedback.

[18:11] It s not about someone saying, Oh, that s great . That s not helpful. You want someone to say, This bit really works, because the flow is there. But, perhaps, this bit you need to work on, because it s jarring or perhaps you can fix this in this certain way.

[18:27] That is actually a skill that a lot of people don t have. Knowing how to fix writing is half the battle with being a good writer.

Steven:

[18:35] You got to mesh with their style of giving feedback as well. I suppose. I remember once When I was working in corporate, somebody complained about me, because she d ask me what I thought of the board paper that she had drafted. I said I thought it was awful, and she complained to the boss.

[18:54] Who said to her, Can you give me the circumstances? She said, Well, it was Friday night. We were in the bar. I went upto him and I said and she said Well, let me just stop you right there.

Claire:

[19:03] Yes.

Steven:

[19:04] Friday night he is having a drink, he went upto him and asked for feedback when you have bought paper probably he wasn t giving you the same kind of considered professional feedback he might have given if you waited till working hours.

[19:14] But when I think of that relation she and I were never going to work well together or not. Because I need to work with people who like I am are open to, and I think having been a professional writer I am not precious about it.

[19:26] I want you to help me like Richard Flanagan, well I am not like Richard Flanagan [laughs] I haven t yet won the Booker Prize. What I mean is I am totally open to you saying that s rubbish rewrite it to make no sense.

Claire:

[19:37] Right. I think there is two really good points there Steven but first is that it s important to know what you are wanting from your reader.

[19:49] If you were asking someone across the office to read what you ve written to just to check there are no typos or errors, then that s one thing. And as long as they re a competent writer and they know their grammar you don t have to have a strong relationship with that person.

[20:06] But if you were asking a person for feedback on how well you ve crafted the argument, how well a piece is put together, does it flow from beginning to end is it the executive summary what it should be

[20:20] Then you need to have someone whose advice you are going to take on board.

[20:26] The second thing is a lot of people do get very attached to their words it s that famous phrase, kill your darlings so if you have a phrase that you love, often that s the first one that has to go.

[20:40] And people do get very attached and almost the more insecure they are the more attached they ll be to their words and therefore if someone comes in and says no I don t think you need to do like this, think about doing it in a different way.

[20:53] Then that can be hard for people to take. As a journalist of course this people know you can t be attached to your words because you send stories in and the editor will chop and change them, often you don t even have a say and then they get published anyway.

[21:10] I mean I am not attached to my words, the only place I am more attached to my words is actually with my fiction, but in any other sphere that I write people can do what they want to it, really.

Steven:

[21:20] It s almost funny when you say that to a client You can do whatever you like with it they look at you like you re crazy but they bought it.

Claire:

[21:27] Yes, right.

Steven:

[21:28] It s yours we just put a house I fully intend to, am not going to be funny with the holder up every time I think about making a change they are your words [crosstalk] they are yours.

Claire:

[21:35] Yes, exactly. I think that s quite liberating because then if people make corrections and they are incorrect then of course I ll come back to someone. But if it s about changing words or style then it s theirs to do that with.

How far can you go with colour and description in corporate writing

Steven:

[21:55] In corporate writing, I gave you the example there of the lady who put the board paper together and the argument was not well structured.

[22:02] In that to get back to the question in describing people and things, there are certain areas of corporate writing where describing things is not going to be welcomed.

[22:12] Do you think it s easy to draw the line on it, because when I think of most the corporate writers I know, they would draw the line and not bothering to describe anything at all, that would be where their line is.

[22:24] If you are working with corporate people and say listen let s try and get a little bit more color into it. Do you start them off anywhere in particular where there is a safer place, for instance, to have some description?

Claire:

[22:36] Well, a safer place could be with the case study, rather than just have a boring case study that doesn t come to life.

[22:44] Turn that case study into a real person and even the smallest amount of description such as their real name, the real title of what it is they do. People love names; people love being described exactly in the role they are playing. And we are we going to connect to that person with the real name in a much stronger way.

[23:07] Start with the case study, see how you can bring that person to life and then think about products and services you can add a little bit of color to.

[23:18] You can also think about emotions, is there anywhere bringing in a particular emotion with the basic texts, can you give an impact on a customer, how do the customer react?

[23:31] The other things that I always say to people is there are certain aspects of storytelling which you can easily incorporate within business. One is having a time placed marker, time marker is don t say long ago, once upon a time or

[23:49] [crosstalk]

Steven:

[23:50] far, far away.

Claire:

[23:51] be vague. Be very specific on February the 15, 2015 this happened. Then give a place, this happened, where did it happen? Locate it because all of those things they are tiny little elements of storytelling but what they do is they anchor the reader and they anchor the story.

[24:10] Then think about specific moments, so rather than making all head stuff, right now, I am gesturing to Steven above my head because a lot of business writing is basically above the head it s not anchored in the body. So bring aspects to moments, bring aspects to absolute concrete events.

[24:29] You are bringing us into the moment we ve got a time and a place, introduce real characters with real names and some dialogue. Even dialogues, even little quotes can be a way to a description because as soon as you have dialogue, you are bringing in another voice and you are authenticating whatever it is you are saying, you are not paraphrasing.

[24:52] Lastly is there anywhere you can bring in anything unanticipated, something unexpected, because as soon as you do that with how you craft something that s story, that s giving the reader what it is they are hoping for which is a spice.

Steven:

[25:11] On the dialogue point I record a lot of things now strangely enough. Because one of my big regrets as a journalist is that I never learned shorthand. I tried to teach myself out of a book, it did not work.

[25:23] I love interviewing people on the phone and I would much rather go and do and have an interview on the phone than go see somebody, because I can type while am talking and it s those bits of dialogue I wrote a story once in Thailand.

[25:35] A journalistic story with a group of people living in Thailand and I kept getting up to go to the loo so that I could write down their dialogue in my note book because I knew I would not remember the next day for various reasons but it was not something I could quickly note with a bit of short hand.

Claire:

[25:52] Yes. I think dialogue is that unsung part of writing. And you can use it obviously you use in journalism but again tiny little quotes, fragments of quotes immediately can lift the quality of a piece of writing.

[26:09] I ve got another story like that, I wasn t rushing to the loo in Thailand that was in Tibet when for my first book, partly set in Tibet and we were being arrested by the Chinese but the things the investigator and the chief questioner were saying were so fantastic.

[26:33] I thought I got to write this down. But I thought I can t really bring in a notebook because obviously they don t let journalist into Tibet. So I was rushing up to the loo finding the runs so then I could write down those brilliant comments that the investigator was asking us.

Handling cliches

Steven:

[26:49] Dialogue and I wanted to touch very briefly on cliches because often we don t recognize the cliches that we go for.

[26:57] Do you have any tips for people on avoiding cliches in the way that they are describing people and things? Because I was reading some research the other day that says that cliches just become noise so people don t even understand it. If you say it at the end of the day people they don t even read it they move on past it.

Claire:

[27:16] Right. Look I think if you ve read it before if you ve had it before it s likely to be a cliche. It s difficult if you don t recognize your own cliches, that s why having someone else read it is useful.

[27:31] There is a results online because somebody told me about it which list six hundred and something cliches, so you can actually check your copy with this list. But apart from that it s really just having a good eye and getting someone else to second read it for you.

Steven:

[27:51] Well, I am going to search that list, obviously I don t need it but am going to research it so that I can put it in a [inaudible 27:56] clip. Thanks so much for sharing with us today.

Claire:

[27:59] You are welcome, it s been a pleasure Steven.

Steven:

[28:01] If people want to work with you to improve their writing or their storytelling or just because they have really enjoyed listening to you today and they want to spend some more time with you, how can they do that?

Claire:

[28:10] They can head to my website which is as you said wordstruck.com.au. They can work with me either on one on one level, I do mentoring for writers for both in the corporate sphere and people who are writing for personal reasons, and also they can hire me to run a story telling for leaders workshop.

[28:32] I m a partner with Anecdote which is Australia leading story telling consultancy, and I run workshops in-house for companies. Helping people develop story telling skills, helping readers develop those skills to better communicate and to foster unity and to bring out the human element within a business.

Steven:

[28:53] So often lacking.

Claire:

[28:54] Yes.

Steven:

[28:55] You ve been listening to the Talemaking podcast about getting your business out with me Steven Lewis, there is a lot more to find out about Claire Scobie at wordstruck.com.au, and there is more about the Talemaking podcast at Taleist.com, that s tale as in telling tales. Taleist.com.

[29:11] You can sign up there for access to our exclusive subscriber library and if you head over now you can see what Claire has very kindly donated. So until the next story, thanks for listening.

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