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1:01

afternoon, good morning, good evening. Wherever you are in the world, I'm Russell Tovey. And

1:03

I'm Robert Dyer, then. And this is Talk Art. Welcome

1:05

to Talk Art. How are you today, Robert? Today,

1:08

Russell, I am feeling enigmatic, like the Mona Lisa. What? Yes,

1:11

that's right. And I'm also feeling like my

1:13

life is a mess like an unmade bed.

1:15

And I'm also feeling plastic and showy. Right.

1:18

So, I'm going to tell you a little bit about

1:20

the moment. I'm going to tell you a little bit

1:22

about the moment. I'm going to tell you a little

1:24

bit about the moment. I'm going to tell you a

1:26

little bit about the moment. I'm also feeling plastic and

1:28

showy. Right. Why would you think

1:30

this is Russell Tovey? I have no idea,

1:32

but you are all those things. I am,

1:35

actually. And I feel very seen by today's

1:37

guests, plural, new album. Because

1:39

the lyrics are just the best lyrics

1:41

they've ever had in the whole of

1:43

their career. And this is their 15th

1:45

studio album. They also have had

1:47

live albums and numerous singles and loads of releases.

1:49

But I'm blown away by this new album. I

1:52

think it's the best one of their career. It

1:54

is joyous. It's orchestral. Like, every

1:56

track has an orchestra on it. And

1:58

it's got this levity. kind of like lightness

2:01

and joy that I feel like is

2:03

needed in the world right now. And

2:05

it's also just cementing their genius really

2:07

and their artistic prowess. And for me

2:09

they are legends of pop art, even

2:12

though their medium is music, not painting

2:14

or sculpture. They really are a consummate

2:16

artist in every sort of way. And

2:18

they've also collaborated with numerous artists over

2:20

the decades. But there's something about their

2:22

contribution to culture which is so rich

2:24

and it's like this, it's sort of

2:27

part of the fabric of British history

2:29

in many ways. And they are the

2:31

most successful British UK duo ever in

2:33

music. And they've sold over 50 million

2:35

albums and now they're going to sell

2:37

a hell of a lot more because

2:39

this new record is 15,000

2:41

but it's extraordinary and I think it's

2:43

going to really move a lot of

2:45

people. And it comes out today. This

2:48

is the celebration episode for the brand

2:50

new album nonetheless. So we would like

2:52

to welcome to Talk Art Pet

2:55

Shop Boys. Hello. Hi

2:57

Neil. How do we

2:59

follow that? Hi Chris. He's totally fancy

3:01

now, do we? Well that's happened.

3:07

We've wanted you guys on for so long

3:09

so thank you so much for joining us.

3:11

Well thanks for having us on Album Release

3:13

Day. Exactly. It's a big privilege and a

3:15

serious joy. Oh we're

3:17

pretending. We've been very lucky

3:19

because Murray gave us preview copies

3:26

of the album and I've listened to it numerous

3:29

times. Who is Murray? Okay. Mo Thomas, PR. Yeah.

3:31

P.R. ICON has worked with Yoko Ono who you

3:33

guys have also worked with. He's worked with us

3:36

only since 1985. Only?

3:38

Yeah. Wow. That's like

3:40

the whole of your career pretty much.

3:42

He didn't do the first six

3:45

months I think. But then he

3:47

came in a young Scottish lad,

3:49

fresh from Dundee and he's

3:52

been with us ever since. Have you always had loyalty

3:54

like that? We do tend

3:56

to have loyalty. One with each other,

3:58

two with Murray. Three

4:00

Mark Faro has worked with

4:02

us since the end of 1985 as well Manager

4:07

Angela Becker has only been with us

4:09

for 15 years, but she's

4:11

our longest running manager So

4:14

yeah, we do tend to have quite long

4:16

lists of some people How

4:18

long has this album been sort of

4:20

manifesting? since

4:24

lockdown So

4:28

in 2020 I

4:30

was in my house in Cairns Chris was in

4:33

his house and We

4:36

started sending each other stuff Chris persuaded me

4:38

to start programming. I've never done before So

4:41

it's sort of old dogs learning new tricks

4:43

thing So I started programming on on garage

4:45

band something I pleased to try to get

4:47

I was trying to get rid of all

4:49

the Apple things on my computer anyway,

4:52

I had much to get rid of it. So

4:54

I bought a 70 quid keyboard

4:57

and and Started

4:59

I looked at a little tutorial And

5:02

started doing it so Chris could send things like a

5:04

beveau climb etc, etc and

5:07

And then of course that whole Covid

5:09

thing pretty much took up two years, didn't

5:11

it? So over those two years we

5:14

we wrote a lot of a lot

5:16

of songs We also wrote a theater piece called

5:18

naked based on emper's new clothes But you were

5:20

never together at any of these these moments Do

5:22

you remember you were allowed to meet in the garden?

5:24

Yeah, we had tea in the garden once Do

5:27

you live near each other? Um in the

5:29

countryside we live about half an hour away

5:31

from each other. Okay. Yeah Probably

5:34

longer in london probably longer in london because he's

5:36

in the east ends and i'm in the west

5:39

Um, so it is longer actually. Yeah, it is longer

5:43

We did we was right by the following year you

5:45

could meet up, of course We did meet up But

5:47

it was a very sort of prolific writing period I

5:49

think I came to see you at one point in

5:51

kent when you moved there and you showed me a

5:53

painting. That's right I did. Yeah, and

5:55

I brought it to your house. You hum it. You have

5:57

a stash in your car. Yeah, I always I always carry

5:59

around and Karl Freeman. We came

6:01

around and you just started doing demos

6:03

on your keyboard. I remember you saying

6:06

to me that's this album is it?

6:08

Yeah, that was probably a few months

6:10

into it then. And

6:12

then you know by the end of 2021

6:15

I was going to keep

6:17

a sort of playlist of what we've been doing. I thought oh

6:19

great we've got enough songs for the new album. And

6:21

then we wrote another song which is the first track on the album

6:23

which you're learning this and then we

6:25

decided to think about what producers do.

6:29

I like this idea of the painting turning

6:31

up and being hung and then assuming if

6:33

you're going to buy it or not. No,

6:35

no, no, I'd already bought it. I think

6:37

we were free delivery. You were free delivery.

6:39

We came together. Well they're also in Kentola.

6:42

People forget how big Kent is. Yeah, it's

6:44

so true. Because people are saying oh Margate.

6:46

They'll say yeah, live nowhere near it, easier

6:48

to get to from London. From

6:52

actually being in Kent. Yeah, yeah. Because Kent's

6:54

huge. Margate's easier to get to from London.

6:57

But for me it's a pain actually to

7:00

get to. That's why I'm hard-headed for that because it's actually a real

7:02

pain to get there. The new album

7:04

has a really particular sound to it and

7:06

for me it's got a simplicity to it

7:08

like a purity which is so refreshing. It

7:11

feels like there's so much space within

7:13

it sonically. Was that something you thought

7:15

about like immediately from those demos? Well

7:18

that's something that James Ford the

7:20

producer brings. He's

7:22

got a room full of old analog synths

7:25

and they're all programmed.

7:28

There's no samples. He uses old

7:30

drum machines and stuff like that. Actually he also plays real

7:32

drums bass occasionally. So

7:35

yeah, those early keyboards come with a

7:38

lot of warmth and also the way

7:40

James has arranged them is very quite

7:42

minimal. It leaves a lot of space for all

7:44

the various sounds. So they've all got room and

7:47

I think that's why it sounds

7:49

so fresh. Yeah, totally. Do you have moments when you

7:51

really reflect on this partnership? Have

7:53

you allowed yourself over the years to reminisce?

7:55

Obviously you have but to sit there and

7:57

go the serendipity of of

8:00

YouTube meeting and what become of that.

8:03

Does that blow your mind now looking having

8:05

this historical view of what you've achieved? We

8:08

only really talk about who are being interviewed. You

8:11

don't with each other don't reminisce

8:13

about we reminisce about things like

8:15

offers manager Tom Watkins, who

8:18

sadly died just before lockdown, I think.

8:21

Although we didn't we went in communication

8:24

with him. But I think when

8:26

someone dies, you remember the good bits. There are lots of

8:28

good bits with Tom. He was

8:31

a big guy, fantasticly

8:33

camp, very

8:35

outspoken. He'd been counseled

8:37

in today's culture. Oh, I

8:39

imagine he wasn't counseled in his culture.

8:41

But he was great. People always say,

8:44

would you learn for

8:46

Tom Watkins? I always have the same answer, interior

8:48

decoration. Tom is a

8:50

great interior decorator. Not a great manager. He

8:54

got us a deal with EMI.

8:57

And we signed this deal. And we had a lawyer

8:59

and she said, this is a terrible management deal. You

9:01

shouldn't really sign it. And I said,

9:04

I'm going to recommend we do sign it because Tom's gonna

9:06

get a deal with EMI. If we don't do this, the

9:08

whole thing could just fade away. And

9:10

so we signed with Tom. It tainted

9:12

our relationship from the beginning because it

9:16

wasn't financially really, we knew we were signing.

9:18

But it was, the

9:21

early days, you'll do anything to get record. And

9:23

I think that's true almost every artist, which is

9:25

why they always get screwed at the beginning of

9:27

their career. Yeah, anybody created matter of things I

9:29

did for free as a young actor, learning up

9:31

and going, I'll do it. I don't mind. I'll

9:33

pay myself to get it. Because you want to

9:35

work and you want to achieve something. Because you

9:37

said, wasn't I taking some like 20% of the

9:40

recording comps? You got 20% of the gross. So

9:43

20% of the

9:45

instance, we got quite a

9:47

large advance and we signed to EMI with actually

9:49

£300,000, which is a lot more than the

9:51

United 85. But the album,

9:54

so Tom got £60,000. So we are now £360,000 in debt. The

10:00

album cost you £100,000 to make. Well,

10:02

it's all but made £60,000 immediately. So

10:04

that's the way that... But we knew that

10:07

when we signed it and... So you took on his

10:09

debt, like... No, no, he just got... When we signed,

10:11

he got 20%, so he got 10% to £30,000. But

10:16

the album cost you £100,000 to make. But I

10:18

mean, obviously, the album did well and what have you.

10:20

But it meant we were never going to

10:22

re-sign with him. But at the same time, he was

10:25

fun. You know, he was fun. He did have an

10:27

interior decoration company. He liked

10:29

kind of 1920s and 30s

10:31

art and collected, you

10:33

know, Clara's Cliff and all that

10:35

stuff. Yeah, yeah, all the ceramics. All the ceramics

10:38

and like things like Eric Gail. And

10:41

all that was quite new

10:43

to us, someone who actually collected art. And

10:47

he was... And I had a house,

10:49

a couple of years later,

10:51

that he sort of did up really

10:53

quickly because I had a friend who

10:55

was dying of AIDS, sadly. And I bought

10:59

the house so he could live in it for part of the

11:01

time. Anyway, Tom just developed it. He's always come around to my

11:03

house with arts and crafts,

11:05

ceramics and oil dill

11:07

and pots. But did you like all

11:09

that or did he sort of force it on you? Yeah,

11:12

he sort of... I thought, yeah, that's great. Because I've always...

11:14

I still like arts and crafts, actually. And so

11:17

that was the sort of thing he learnt from Tom. Actually, I think

11:19

he learnt quite a lot of music industry from us because I'd

11:21

mostly smash hits. So I knew... Well,

11:23

from the press side anyway about the music industry. But

11:26

he was... And then he was... Bross

11:28

came along, he managed Bross. And

11:33

then for five years we were up and we moved

11:35

on and Bross sort of imploded.

11:37

But then he had his 17

11:39

and they did Western Girls. And

11:43

anyway, so... So he pushed arts and crafts onto

11:45

you, but Chris, did you ever absorb any of

11:47

the sort of ceramics

11:49

and...? No, I wasn't on the receiving

11:51

end of all of that. He was

11:53

very good. Actually, one thing I did learn from him

11:55

was... Built-in wardrobes. Oh,

11:58

wow. And do you still... Well, his big

12:00

thing in the 80s was

12:03

a framework of, I suppose

12:05

now it would be MDF. Yeah. But

12:07

in front of it, he would put blinds. It

12:10

was very 80s, the whole thing. Well, to

12:12

be fair, it was the 80s. Yeah. Yeah,

12:14

so, yeah, the next thing. Any

12:18

other side, guys? Did you

12:20

two always have a very clear vision about

12:22

how you wanted to present yourself through photography

12:24

at the time and then music videos? Because

12:26

obviously you were at the era, you know,

12:28

at the same time as people at Madonna

12:30

who ended up using videos as a way

12:32

to kind of transport the music to another

12:34

dimension and globally, internationally. Well, you know, we came

12:36

up half way through the 80s. So

12:38

that had been going since approximately

12:41

78, really. I mean, when was

12:43

I Don't Like Mondays? Oh, yeah, it's true. When was

12:45

I Don't Like Mondays by Boomtown? Yeah,

12:47

yeah, yeah. You know, I mean, Adam

12:49

Ant is 7980. And even

12:52

Kate Bush. Kate Bush? Yeah, 77. So

12:54

all of that, you know, David Bowie lets

12:56

dance 83. So that was a

12:59

sort of a given. That whole thing had happened

13:01

by the time we came on, the whole Duran,

13:03

Spoundale culture club thing around the

13:05

world in America, et cetera, had happened. So

13:08

what we were, we were the next

13:10

wave that mixed dance music with pop

13:12

music. So

13:15

our influences were early

13:17

hip hop. The

13:19

records were made by Alpha Baker, particularly, you

13:21

know, like Afrikaans Batter. Yeah. So

13:23

what we used to call high energy, we just saw

13:25

it be called high energy, which is sort of gay

13:28

disco. And

13:30

then, of course, obviously pop music

13:32

was as well. And also the

13:34

electronic scene, like particularly maybe Kraftwerk,

13:36

but also Soft Cell. One

13:39

of the first things we ever talked about as you were in first man was

13:42

Ben Sitter by Soft Cell. So

13:45

all of those things were our sort of influences.

13:47

And that was in a shop, wasn't it? Like

13:49

you were buying a synth and Chris spotted you.

13:51

Was that right? No, I had a synthesizer. And

13:55

when I got it home, this little Korg

13:57

MS10 synthesizer, I... I

14:00

thought, I think I thought it had speakers in it.

14:03

By the way, I would do the same now. And

14:06

I thought, oh, you can't

14:08

get a sound out of it. And

14:11

so I realised you had to, I had a

14:14

very typical 1970s stereo system. And

14:17

so I went to Chelsea Records stores, which

14:19

is an electronic shop on

14:21

the King's Road, and I still live near it.

14:24

Anyway, the man at the shop, I told him

14:26

what the issue was. And he said, yeah, he

14:28

needed Jack going into, I forgot what

14:31

you call the two-pronged thingy. And

14:33

so he went round the back and there was a

14:35

smell of welding and he made this for me. And

14:39

in this moment, Chris walked in

14:41

and the shop was, the

14:44

counter was unserved because the

14:46

man was welding a plug for me. And

14:49

actually I went home, it did indeed work. And

14:52

so we kind of met over the synthesiser. And

14:54

did you swap phone numbers at that point? No,

14:57

we didn't. We didn't put enough phones then.

14:59

So how did you stay, how did you have that one?

15:01

No, I had a phone call. I had

15:03

a phone. Right. I didn't. Yeah, no,

15:05

you phoned me up one day. A landline. You

15:08

forget how hard it used to be making a phone call.

15:10

Because I was living in Chelsea as well. You

15:13

used to go to the phone box on the phone. I

15:15

don't know all the words. If I was phoning home, it

15:17

would take me, I'd follow an hour, and at least an

15:19

hour to wander around all of Chelsea

15:21

trying to find a phone box that communication

15:24

was not easy then. But

15:26

quite good in many ways as well. Yeah, that's

15:28

true. Trying to avoid people. So you had a

15:31

phone call and then how long did it take

15:33

for you guys to sort of connect in a

15:35

way where you realised that you'd creatively be able

15:37

to make something? Well quite quickly because the

15:39

synthesiser was new and Chris was a keyboard

15:41

player. I mean I could play the piano a little

15:43

bit. And I had a guitar,

15:45

an acoustic guitar. And so

15:48

Chris played the keyboard, the

15:50

synthesiser, which is a monophonic one most of the time.

15:53

And so we started with, and I always played the chords

15:55

on the guitar. So that's how we started. And we hit

15:57

things as well, didn't we, for drums? We hit things for

15:59

drums. Yeah, take cabinets and things like

16:01

that. It was all very... Pulling more

16:04

drives. We're very up on guard. Very...

16:06

We always have been, yes. And you

16:08

do this in each other's living room.

16:10

No, mine, my studio flat. Yeah.

16:15

And when did the name come together? You're calling

16:17

it a studio flat, yeah. Well, it had, because

16:19

it was one room with a kitchen and a

16:21

bathroom, whereas you were in a bed-sitter. I was

16:23

in bed-sitter, like. You were the classic bed-sitter. Yeah.

16:25

If you want to know what Chris's flat

16:27

bed-sitter was like, just listen to bed-sitter by

16:30

soft-cell, because that's what it was. Yeah,

16:32

it had bright blue and orange walls.

16:36

Did you paint them yourself? No. No,

16:40

that's how it came. Shared bathroom. I

16:43

can't imagine before the built-in wardrobe came

16:45

in. One ring, one ring hob,

16:47

hob, which

16:51

I used to make hind sausage and

16:53

beans. I don't know. All in the same tin.

16:56

Yeah, everything had to come out one tin. I

16:58

don't think I even had a toaster. I don't

17:00

think you did. How did you guys know to

17:02

come to London? Was that a thing of being

17:05

gay or was that a thing of music? What

17:07

was the point? I'm sorry. You

17:09

looked a lot like, how dare you? How

17:11

dare you? Roughly just outed, I guess.

17:15

Nobody knows. Many

17:17

genders. Well, I

17:19

came to London. I did my A-levels.

17:22

Did you pass them? I did. No, I

17:25

think they invented the A-style. I

17:28

only did three A-levels. History,

17:31

English, Literature and Economics. They

17:33

served you well, didn't they? But I got an

17:35

O-level past Economics. I was quite pleased.

17:37

Gave me another O-level. I never really knew what was

17:40

going on. History, of course, I've always been pretty good

17:42

at. You got a B, you didn't get an A.

17:45

I got a C in English Literature. You've

17:47

made it for now, don't you? He's

17:49

got honorary, that's... Have

17:51

you got a doctorate? I've only

17:53

got one thing, Chris. I've got

17:55

a honorary doctorate from Durham University. What for?

17:58

Doctor of letters. Letters, not numbers. It's

18:00

pretty chic coming from Durham. That's like,

18:02

that's like, tell that to you. He turned down a few

18:05

before he accepted that one. Oh, well done. He

18:07

wasn't going to get it from other lesser universities.

18:09

Have you not been given any honour of... Have

18:12

I? I nearly swore then. You can swear. I

18:14

can't swear. He can, we love swear. Have I?

18:16

Heck. How do you feel about

18:18

that then? Well,

18:20

I wouldn't accept it anyway, so would you. Wouldn't you?

18:23

You wouldn't only know me better than that.

18:25

You wouldn't want those letters after your name. What were

18:27

you doing? Like, I'm going

18:29

to turn up for that. Didn't you get something?

18:31

You went to your old school once or something.

18:34

I was at school and I'd already left. I

18:36

got the music prize. And

18:38

I was really annoyed about having to go to that

18:40

as well. No, I thought you went to something... Oh,

18:43

you opened a school building. You

18:46

cut the ribbon. Yes. Oh my God, that's glamorous.

18:48

I made it my speech and I did the whole thing, and

18:51

then about a year later the school closed. No. You

18:54

don't open it. I

18:56

didn't even get my plaque. I'll

19:00

visit Chris Lowhead for the school. Open by Chris Lowhead.

19:02

You should have said close by. Close by. I thought

19:04

you had a plaque. Yeah, I thought that was a

19:07

queen. I know it wasn't so much like that. It

19:09

was a little curt. Anyway, next

19:11

year school's gone. Oh my God. Talk

19:14

about the curse of the Pet Shop Boys. Talk

19:16

about Pet Shop Boys, their name then. Where

19:18

did that actually come from? Chris

19:21

was at Liverpool University when we met,

19:25

doing a year's work experience, and then at the end

19:27

of that year he went back to Liverpool and used

19:29

to come back to London. We used to carry on

19:31

writing songs. We were using a summer studio at this

19:33

point, but he used to

19:35

stay in a house in Ealing, and

19:39

the guys that lived there had three student friends

19:42

who worked at a pet shop, and they were

19:44

known as the Pet Shop Boys. And that is... No one

19:46

believes that, but I'm afraid it's

19:48

the truth. Were they aware that they were

19:50

then the pet or the real one? They did know. No,

19:53

they did know, but I was going to say,

19:55

because it sounded to us like a rap band,

19:57

because there was a group

19:59

called New York City. Peach Boys were very sort

20:01

of cool. I think the Beastie Boys had started,

20:03

just started. And yeah, we made our

20:06

record, our first record in New York by this point, we didn't

20:08

have a name. And so the

20:10

boys thing, a lot of rap outfits

20:13

were called something something boys. And

20:15

so we thought Petrol Boys sounded like a funny English

20:18

rap group. And

20:23

then when we did our first interview plug in,

20:25

the first thing which came out actually 40 years

20:27

ago this month, West End Girls,

20:31

Betty Page at the record mirror, I

20:33

did a phone dog and she said,

20:35

Oh, well, we all know where you got their name

20:37

from. And I

20:39

said, Yeah, I know you Chris had these friends who

20:41

worked in a picture. She goes, Neil, we all know.

20:44

And I said, what? And she said, it's,

20:47

it's a practice in New

20:49

York where people are involving

20:51

hamsters to lower the tone. And

20:54

I was absolutely horrified. You know what,

20:57

when I was a kid, when I

20:59

was about 11 or something, I

21:01

liked a Pet Shop Boys song and people at school were

21:03

like, they told me that

21:05

story. Yeah, they told me that I got bullied.

21:08

Oh, no, don't. Oh, my God. Why

21:12

can we not mention you? No,

21:14

no, actually, this is live, but it's live.

21:16

But it's a live. Allegedly. The

21:18

story actually passed from us. I don't believe

21:21

anyone knows that. I think

21:23

it's an urban myth about you as an urban myth. I

21:25

mean, we got lumbered with it. And actually, to be

21:27

honest, it's been sort of gone away more or less,

21:29

but it's a total. Well, it had done until just

21:31

now. No, no. Hashtag

21:36

true. Thanks for reminding

21:38

us all about that, Neil. Well, it was,

21:40

obviously, where the name came from. Oh, my

21:43

God. Was it very hard to stay true

21:45

to your sound once you'd signed with a

21:47

label? Was there a lot of pressure at

21:49

the time to please many

21:51

people? No, we

21:55

had a surprising amount of confidence.

22:00

We probably thought they were all a

22:02

bit hopeless in

22:06

a way because we thought we

22:08

knew the sort of the

22:10

sound of the recent future, the coming

22:13

future was going to be, which was

22:15

this mixture of hip-hop, gay

22:17

disco. Actually we weren't wrong. No,

22:20

but you defined it. And

22:24

then the first single, so we're Tom

22:26

Watkins, we signed to EMI, and

22:28

the first single was a huge flop, let's run lots

22:30

of money. But then we did Western Girls and went

22:32

to them born around the world. And then

22:35

we could sort of do, you know, as it

22:38

was the credit went to us, we'd worked with a producer

22:40

called Stephen Hay. The record company and Tom Watkins did not

22:43

want us to work with. Stephen Hay

22:45

had worked a record I still

22:47

like called Hay You The

22:49

Rock Steady Crew. It

22:51

was a pop, sort of

22:53

pop rap record. But also he worked with

22:56

Malcolm Mctown on Madam Butterfly, which is a

22:58

good record. And we also had

23:00

this idea that we wanted our sound to be

23:02

cinematic. And so Western

23:04

Girls, the hit version, starts with someone walking down

23:06

the street, so that's all the film. And that

23:09

was a big idea we had. And so, you know,

23:12

to be fair to us, and to be

23:14

as them, we got the credit for choosing

23:17

the people to work with and all of us. And

23:19

so they let us get on with it,

23:22

really. Every now and then there'd be complaints

23:25

about the first album cover, Please,

23:27

had a tiny photograph, the name

23:29

Tiny, Please in

23:31

Tiny Letters. But you know, it was

23:34

very minimalist. Tom Watkins wanted us to do something

23:36

very maximalist because it was the 80s. But you

23:40

know, once we'd proved ourselves, people pretty much started to

23:42

get on with it. Where did that come from, that

23:44

kind of desire to have a tiny image? Because I

23:46

feel like from the get go, your aesthetic, that's kind

23:48

of what I was trying to say before, like, the

23:50

way you presented yourself, not just in photography, but

23:53

also through typography or album sleeve design

23:55

was so specific. And when you look

23:57

back at the whole career, it's this

23:59

really cohesive artistic statement.

24:02

And no one else was doing that at

24:04

the time. I really remember all the small

24:06

images and the single

24:08

titles for albums and just everything you've

24:11

done is very specific. Well,

24:14

Chris was a qualified architect. I'd

24:17

worked in publishing, so I had thought about it.

24:19

I didn't know much about it really. And

24:23

also we worked with a talk with Eric Watson. Yes,

24:25

I'd like to talk loads about him. I hope he

24:27

gets enough credit. Well, I

24:29

mean, we always give him credit. But Eric,

24:31

I knew from, was the

24:34

boyfriend, a friend of my from Newcastle. And he was

24:36

from Newcastle. And he came down to London and went

24:38

to Hornet Young College. And

24:40

at the end... It makes it that clear that your friend

24:42

was a girl. My friend was a girl.

24:45

Yeah, people might be. She actually, she still is. And...

24:55

People thought that Eric was a legend in the air screen.

24:57

He wouldn't be happy about it. Anyway,

25:01

so Eric, when

25:03

we first recorded in New York with Bobby

25:05

Orlando, Eric offered to take some pictures of

25:07

us. And by this point, I met Smash

25:09

Hits. And Eric is taking both

25:12

of the Smash Hits. And

25:16

we did a first session with him. And

25:18

then we got released the first

25:20

Western College release on Epic Records because Eric

25:22

played at the 8-0 man. And they signed

25:24

us to one single deal and

25:26

then dropped us. And

25:29

so we always sort of had the

25:31

deal that Eric would do the videos because he'd

25:34

never done videos. And so we

25:36

had quite a strong career, not

25:38

just with him, but relationship with

25:40

Eric for about five years,

25:42

really. And right

25:45

at the beginning of the EMI contract,

25:47

we spent a lot of time and

25:49

money doing photo sessions. And

25:51

we discussed the ideas and again, like, I

25:53

filmed stills was our big idea in the

25:56

mid 80s. And they sort of

25:58

did actually. And so that was

26:00

a... that was quite an important relationship about

26:02

defining the way we looked. And also Mark

26:04

Farrow came at the end of

26:06

1985, right after Westingales. And

26:10

he'd worked a bit at factory. And

26:13

I think Chris's tastes particularly were quite

26:15

minimal. And also

26:17

we liked, with the first album

26:19

cover we were outrageously minimal. It

26:22

was a white square with a tiny

26:25

photograph. It actually feels radical.

26:27

Like when you look back at whatever else we

26:29

were doing, I know it does. It feels totally

26:31

radical and unique. We were partly doing it to

26:33

wind everyone up. Tom Watkins has spent months saying,

26:35

I've got the Alg Guy different album, it's amazing.

26:38

It's paper engineering. It's got 64 flaps

26:40

you fold. And he's

26:42

got us at 6.5 hours to get the album out.

26:46

And so that was a great

26:48

thing about relation with Tom. There

26:50

was a lot of negative energy.

26:53

But so we reacted. So what we did was a

26:55

posted picture of us on a big white square. Yeah,

26:58

and all the other photos were on the inside. And

27:00

all the other photos were on the inside. So

27:02

you would sit with Eric and work out what

27:04

your image would be at? That

27:07

probably sounds more planned

27:09

than it was. But yeah, we

27:12

sort of did. Like

27:15

for instance, in Westingales, I've got

27:17

this long coat on. Well, Eric held the coat

27:19

first. Chris

27:21

always had a stronger sense of style because he liked the

27:24

sort of great clothes. We noticed this

27:26

because we were looking back at loads of the photos.

27:28

I know there was a National Portrait Gallery exhibition

27:30

of your photos, like a, I don't know what

27:32

part of the gallery it was in, but it was

27:34

like a small presentation. It was a display.

27:37

A display. Exactly. But it was really beautiful.

27:39

And we were looking at it in every

27:41

single picture. Your outfits, Chris, are

27:43

totally incredible. Like you had such cool

27:46

style like you'd still do. But it's

27:48

really interesting to see that. But where

27:51

did that come from? Were you always someone that expressed themselves

27:53

through what you want? Well, no, the first time we got

27:56

the first time we were doing a photo

27:58

session, we went shopping. shopping with the

28:01

stylist, Ian R Webb. I think it's still working.

28:03

Yes, it is. I thought, great.

28:06

Get some good clothes out of this. Shopping,

28:08

you know. And first thing I wanted was a

28:10

chain. Yes, a girl chain. Not

28:13

really necessary, but... Well, Ian R Webb's just a madman.

28:16

All he wanted was a girl chain. So I got a girl chain out

28:18

of it. Did you get one? Yeah, that was

28:20

a girl chain. I think it was a bit... It

28:23

was featured in the photograph. And

28:26

yeah, so it was just great, you know. Actually,

28:29

nothing's really changed. I mean, we were out shopping the other

28:31

day because we had to do some things. Yeah,

28:33

there were two of us. So we just nipped down

28:35

Bond Street. We've always bought our own clothes, actually. I

28:37

mean, apart from when you're doing a specific shed or

28:39

something like that. A shoe or something like that. Yeah,

28:41

like when we worked with... Tim Walker. Tim Walker. On

28:43

the Alpeca. That was all

28:46

styled by their stylist. But if

28:48

we're just doing other stuff, it's just great

28:50

opportunity to go shopping. When we first went to Japan, wow, that was

28:52

amazing. Well,

28:55

we realised early on, and it was to me less

28:58

as well, that actually we had a

29:00

thing that became sort of the brand. I

29:02

would wear smart clothes and Chris would wear street clothes. Oh. And

29:05

that actually literally just came out of what

29:07

we liked. And that's pretty much still the

29:09

case. It was exactly the case

29:11

because you're hearing like Isumaki structured suit jacket

29:14

and you're in like an Adidas and a pop black top. Chris could literally have

29:16

been wearing that 40 years ago to be honest. There's

29:20

a shot in the Rent video directed

29:22

by Zaryk Jarman of me getting off

29:24

the train at King's Cross. And

29:27

I got off the train yesterday at

29:29

Euston dressed exactly the same. Oh. The

29:32

same bag over my shoulder. It was

29:34

literally me. What, 40

29:36

years later? Almost 40 years later. 40

29:39

years later. And I thought, well, literally

29:41

nothing's changed. Well, the

29:43

style that Eric Watson created with you guys

29:45

was described as shiny pop and crumbling decay,

29:47

which kind of really fits with the state

29:50

of England at the time. And it really

29:52

makes me think of Derek Jarman

29:54

as well and what he was capturing. That's very much.

29:56

Well, Derek didn't do shiny pop, but he did know

29:58

it's coming to the case. Yeah,

30:01

yeah. And also, for instance, Chris just mentioned

30:03

King's Cross. King's Cross, we're actually recording this

30:05

near King's Cross. Yeah. King's Cross

30:08

was really decayed. We used

30:10

to go to a bar here, really

30:12

near called Traffic. And it's

30:14

one of those gay bars where all the

30:16

windows were covered over. It looked really scary,

30:18

but then it went in, it was fine.

30:21

And this area was quite scary,

30:23

I think. And I remember when they

30:25

were doing this up, I

30:28

couldn't believe they'd ever made King's Cross fashionable

30:32

because it was, you know, it

30:35

was all drug dealers and stuff. And a lot

30:37

of prostitutes. A lot of prostitutes. There was no areas

30:39

that we could say, they'd all be lined up

30:41

waiting for the bus. The bus would pull up. The

30:44

bus would drive off and they'd still be there. They'd

30:47

never get on the bus. They'd never get on the bus. Because

30:50

I used to live just around the corner, so I was very aware of

30:52

it. You guys were so much

30:54

more culturally aware than so many of

30:56

your peers at that time, which

30:58

must have liked saying you're working with Derek Jarman

31:00

to be aware of that. Was that something you

31:02

were aware of? Or I know that just is

31:04

innate to you. But was you aware that

31:06

that was setting you above all

31:09

your peers? We

31:11

didn't set out to be

31:13

above or below anyone. And we set out

31:16

right from the beginning to be our

31:18

own thing, to

31:21

create our own world, so

31:23

that we didn't have to compete with anyone else

31:25

either. We were only really competing with ourselves. And

31:29

that again is true today. You

31:32

know, I've said a bit gazillion times, I sort

31:34

of see the whole thing as just an artwork

31:36

that gets bigger and bigger. Yeah.

31:39

What we do. And people come in and out of

31:41

it, like Derek Jarman or Liza Minelli or

31:43

someone. And

31:46

it's just like a giant artwork that

31:48

keeps it like a big mural or

31:50

something. It's just expanding. Rather

31:54

than you were trying to compete

31:56

with Spanda Valle or

31:58

whatever or Erasure or something. something at

32:00

the time. Well, of course, we've always been

32:03

a lot interested in pop music, but

32:06

we were sort of our own reference point in a

32:08

way. All our reference points came from

32:10

outside pop music, came

32:13

from architecture and maybe

32:16

films a bit. And of course, theatre, which

32:20

is a difficult reference point in a lot

32:23

of people, rock people sort of don't like

32:25

theatre. And Chris's

32:28

mother was an actress

32:30

and a dancer and his father was famous in a

32:32

comedy jazz band called The Nittwits. And

32:34

so they had a sort of show, grandfather, sorry. And

32:37

so they had a sort of show business

32:39

background, which I didn't, but even in

32:41

my family, my grandfather,

32:44

my mother's side, loved

32:46

musical theatre and would

32:49

do pro-pantomimes and things. So again, and

32:52

I went to the People's Youth Theatre, people's

32:54

theatre in Newcastle when I was a kid. So

32:57

we both had something of that. And

32:59

also, and you like David Bowie. David

33:03

Bowie sort of hasn't gone in

33:05

history as theatrical, but actually, at the beginning of

33:07

the 80s, so if you

33:09

look at the previous ten years, you've gone

33:11

from Ziggy Stardust with all of that, to

33:13

David Bowie walking down the beach at

33:15

pet level wherever it is dressed as a clown.

33:18

So it's very theatrical. And also

33:20

you've just had Grace Jones' One Man

33:23

Show. We've all seen that

33:25

arena film and the entour made about David

33:27

Bowie and his touring, Diamond Dogs in America.

33:29

And so we wanted to do something theatrical

33:31

that was, and that took years before we

33:33

got that together. But

33:35

we didn't tour before we could do that. I know,

33:37

but I loved that. That's like a story that I

33:40

always tell people is that you guys never did tours

33:42

or gigs, really, until you went on

33:44

that first tour until you got it exactly how

33:46

you wanted it. Like as a show, as a

33:48

kind of something very meaningful. And I think it really

33:50

sums up so much about what you do. There's like a

33:52

level of excellence in a way that

33:55

has to be very precise. You don't just like

33:57

do a gig in a pub. You know what

33:59

I mean? There's like there's

34:01

this very like deliberate choice about the way you

34:03

guys express yourself. Well, it's just you know I

34:05

mean, it's amazing if a young band come up

34:08

and they just go in the pub and they've

34:10

got a very cosmetic lead singer and holding some

34:12

help. Sure. We have on occasion. We have. We

34:14

do. We play in Camden. Yeah. Actually, you know

34:16

what? They're great gigs folks. I think

34:19

I could understand the appeal. I mean, I really

34:21

enjoyed them. Yeah, but our

34:23

first big gig was something that we waited

34:25

to do until we could afford to do

34:27

exactly what we wanted. Exactly. Our first major

34:30

gig was at the Budokan

34:32

in Tokyo and then won the

34:35

arena in London. So

34:37

we sort of went right in

34:39

at the top level, which was... It's so

34:41

cool. And the films in that live show

34:43

were Derek Jarman collaboration. Derek actually directed the

34:46

whole show. So Derek made

34:48

films and he brought in his

34:50

costume designer. But

34:52

we've done a big... Oh, in Fanny

34:54

Powell, didn't they? Yes. Who did the...

34:56

It's the Sin. Yeah. Yeah. And I

34:59

remember going to a meeting at... in Dungeon S

35:01

with my sister because she was staying with me on

35:03

a Sunday... an early afternoon. We were having

35:06

tea outside and just going through all the...

35:09

Derek was going through all the ideas with his costume designer for

35:11

the show. And that was

35:13

great. And then he made these films. Derek was very excited because

35:15

he made these super 8 films that were blown up to...

35:19

You said they'd never been done before. I'm

35:21

not very good at films. The projections then. 70

35:23

millimetres. They're grown up to 70 millimetres. Yeah. So

35:25

the whole thing's on YouTube. It is on YouTube.

35:28

Yeah. And they're beautiful films, particularly the one for

35:30

King's Cross. It's really, really gorgeous. And

35:32

there's a lovely one for Hearts with just people dancing.

35:34

And Derek comes in right at the end. So you

35:36

see Derek. But also we'd

35:38

just done a video with Derek Watson in

35:40

Los Angeles where we had these

35:43

two dancers, Casper and Cooley, who

35:45

had taught Michael Jackson to breakdance. Well,

35:48

anyway, they, we decided they would be

35:50

in. And they had four

35:52

of the dancers. And then they came over

35:54

to London and put the whole show to...

35:56

...Kathryn Rehearsal Studio. And

36:00

it was really we were all winging

36:02

it a bit and we had Courtney

36:04

Pine playing saxophone Really

36:08

so something would happen to cover the costume changes And

36:11

so for instance of the first section of the show, we didn't

36:13

tell him that did we? We

36:16

played on a record we'd made with

36:19

us in Springfield Nothing's improved and

36:21

then he played on lines of his arms as well. And

36:23

he was a great guy He's a fantastic guy and he

36:25

was great musician obviously And so he was

36:27

but he like he was able to improvise and stuff

36:30

and he also he's quite interested in saxophone going to

36:32

electronics And we put all

36:34

us together We had

36:36

Piela Rocht in the makeup who did

36:38

the 11th same flash. Oh, well unfortunately,

36:42

we all flew to but Derek

36:45

couldn't go cause a friend of his was ill and

36:49

We all flew to Hong Kong for the first gig

36:52

And when we got there Piela

36:54

Rocht was ill on the plane and

36:59

It was like 1989 and He

37:02

had to go back to England. He was diagnosed at

37:04

age and it was really I Mean

37:07

lived two or three years longer, but it was that

37:09

was a pretty Heavy thing to

37:11

happen at the beginning of the tour. His makeup

37:13

was amazing And

37:15

he was a wonderful person to work with And

37:18

anyway, the whole thing went off pretty well I

37:22

don't know the sound is very good, but we

37:24

can well, what are you gonna say about it?

37:26

My father came to somebody reading came back stage.

37:28

I will convince his words said Oh, oh it

37:30

sounded terrible First

37:35

word he said Honestly,

37:39

I think he's right man Actually,

37:41

we've worked on the sound we work the next two of

37:43

the sound is a million times better How

37:45

did you become aware of Derek? Is it because

37:48

of the films? Derek

37:50

John in the 80s was pretty famous I mean

37:52

Derek John was the late 70s when Derek's film

37:54

Sebastian a the first film ever to be shot

37:56

in Latin Came out and was

37:58

full of male nudity and stuff was on the gate,

38:00

not a little gate for ages. Everyone

38:03

sort of was very, very time out,

38:05

you know, that kind of thing. And

38:08

Derek was, and then Mrs.

38:10

Thatcher came along, Derek was kind of like a leader

38:13

of opposition to Thatcher.

38:15

Yeah. Which was quite

38:18

interesting. So people always, we

38:20

always have this discussion, if you always

38:22

think of the 80s as being

38:25

loads of money. Well, I think that was the

38:27

90s. Because in the 80s, there

38:29

was still people doing, you know,

38:32

fringe theatre cooperatives and

38:35

Spanda ballet, having their clothes made for

38:37

them, Boy George, you know, same

38:40

sort of thing. It was quite a do it

38:42

yourself period, really. And Derek was like that. Derek

38:44

could make a movie, even the reason we brought

38:47

him in to do that too is because Derek,

38:50

Derek could really make a

38:52

little money go a long way. He never

38:54

had more than like 10 grand in his

38:56

bank his whole life. No. And in his,

39:00

in his, one of his diaries,

39:02

he complains that the video for It's

39:04

a Sin cost more than he would make a

39:06

movie with. But he

39:08

made It's a Sin then. But he made

39:10

It's a Sin. That's his fault. Who's complaining

39:13

himself about that? It was in budget. We

39:15

want to, I mean, this

39:19

all came about because we were mixing It's

39:21

a Sin in Amvision Studios and Channel 4

39:23

was showing Caravaggio. Wow. And it was on

39:26

the screen in the TV, the Sound Down.

39:31

And we thought, we should get him to do it. My mecha actually

39:33

is probably exaggerated, but he came down around the next day or the

39:35

day after. And he thought... Did you ever meet

39:37

him? No. No neither of

39:39

us. And he died in 94, didn't he? And I was born

39:41

in 81. He had so much

39:43

exuberance and energy and positivity.

39:45

And it was the most

39:48

incredible person. I remounted blue.

39:50

We did blue and took it around with

39:52

a light performance. The first time I saw

39:54

blue, I saw the first performance sitting in

39:56

Exodermic. Oh my God. And

39:58

he was sort of chuckling through it. Yeah, of

40:00

course blue has got a lot of very dark

40:02

humor. He did have an infectious blast didn't he?

40:04

He did have a great laugh. Yeah,

40:07

it's very like, yeah, hangman's humor

40:09

completely and irony and... That's just

40:11

sort of funny as well, you

40:13

know. And, you know,

40:16

he came up in that early

40:19

70s era, Andrew Logan,

40:21

alternative Miss World, all dressing

40:23

up and it's sort

40:25

of a lot of fun as well, you know. I sort of

40:28

miss all of that. Yeah, I do. Well,

40:30

we have a song in the new

40:32

album called The New Bohemia. The New Bohemia.

40:35

Yeah, I did that. I love that. Very

40:37

classy. Liza Melly wants to tell us whatever you're

40:39

doing, you should always get it back to what

40:41

you're trying to sell. Oh, she was shameless. That

40:44

requires. She was shameless, I know. That's great advice.

40:46

Have you watched any interview? Liza

40:48

Melly, when we did the album with her, she's doing promotion, of

40:50

course, all anyone wants to talk about is her mother. She

40:54

wants to plug the album and so there's someone

40:56

saying, oh, well, you know, Judy Garvey wants to

40:58

because, yeah, well, you know, it's like

41:00

when I was with the Pet Shop Boys. But

41:04

the thing is, she's right about

41:06

that. And I forgot what I

41:08

was saying. The New Bohemia. The New Bohemia. That's

41:11

sort of a song missing

41:14

the fact that Bohemian life, it

41:17

does exist, of course, in sort of Dalston or

41:19

somewhere, but it's not a... We

41:23

used to be part, one time we were sort of part of

41:25

a scene like that and now I don't know where we are.

41:28

It's sort of genuinely missing that. It's

41:30

not just about me or us either,

41:33

but it is, you sort of miss that

41:36

kind of culture. Everything now goes, well, it's been a kiss for

41:38

so long. We

41:40

were out every night, so we've been aware of

41:42

anything. And these days we don't go out as

41:44

much. So it's probably just the fact we don't

41:46

really go out all the time. I

41:49

think I met you when I was 17, 18, starting to

41:51

go out to gay nights like a rebel rebel.

41:53

You shouldn't have been allowed in at that. Well,

41:56

I always felt... I knew we should have brought in ID

41:58

cards. I

42:01

should have been to be honest, but I always

42:03

found that, you know, gay venues helped

42:05

young gay people get in when in

42:07

a regular pub they would have been

42:09

turned away. Where there was this sort

42:11

of solidarity in this community that I

42:13

always felt like they knew I was

42:16

too young, but they were going to let me in because otherwise

42:18

what else am I going to do? And I

42:20

found that them club nights were like that. And I

42:23

remember you being incredibly generous and just like really social.

42:25

Doesn't sound like me. Sure it was me. And

42:28

then I think we met after the history boys. We did, yeah. We

42:30

met after history boys. You're very good in that by the way. Thank you

42:32

very much. That was like 20 years ago this year. The

42:35

history boys thing was really funny because I was in also one

42:37

night. That was 20 years ago. 20 years ago

42:39

this year. I know.

42:42

I was in this restaurant also and I went to the

42:44

loo and I came out the loo. Alan Bennett was standing

42:46

outside and he said, Oney, I

42:48

just wanted to thank you. That's a bit

42:50

of an impersonation. I just wanted to thank

42:52

you for letting me use your song in

42:54

my new play. And I

42:56

said, well, that's fantastic Alan, but I don't know

42:59

anything about you. He said, it's the sins at

43:01

the end of act two. And

43:06

so I'm thrilled, but I don't know anything about it. That's great. That's

43:09

great anyway. So he invited

43:11

us to the press night. Press night.

43:13

I remember seeing you out in New Orleans. Of the

43:15

history boys. And afterwards

43:17

there was a sort of, you know,

43:19

budget National Theatre drink up. Budget,

43:23

yeah. And

43:25

we met you and we

43:27

met Dominic James

43:29

Corden. Correct. A lot of people came out

43:31

of that. Yeah. What's his face? Well,

43:33

I just saw playing Benjamin Brin in Stratford. Maybe

43:35

I got a machine that's from there. Sam

43:38

Barnett. Sam Barnett. Yeah. And

43:41

it was really quite, and then you all toured, didn't you? We did.

43:43

We went like nine months. Yeah. Around the world,

43:45

ended up on Broadway. But you weren't happy because

43:47

I, my character sings it's a sin.

43:49

How's that you? And then one of the other,

43:51

the other lads go, it's shit. It's shit. You

43:54

said it to me afterwards. I'm

43:57

like, I didn't say that. Oh my God. Anyway, luckily

43:59

he got rid of it. replaced by, was

44:01

it Maura Cialis-Smith for the film? Were you

44:03

in the film as well? Yeah, yeah. But

44:06

that didn't make the film that bit. No, it didn't

44:08

make the tour. It takes some time off to tour

44:10

it. But that song has been

44:13

culturally, I mean, going back to Derek Jarman

44:15

directing it, but It's a Sin has been

44:17

so important for so many generations. And even

44:19

now, with the It's a Sin

44:22

TV show and then All of us Strangers, your music,

44:25

you find these new generations are discovering you

44:27

over the last 40 years. That must feel

44:29

incredible. I

44:31

suppose so, yes. I think we've noticed

44:34

it in the last few months because

44:36

of Saltburn and All of Us Strangers.

44:38

They sing Rent and Saltburn. And

44:42

it's actually like part of the plot. Which Derek

44:44

also directed Rent, did he? Derek directed

44:46

Rent too. Yeah, yeah. And that

44:49

does feel nice. I

44:52

mean, from our perspective, we've just

44:54

sort of always been here. We're

44:56

always doing something. So

44:59

we never make a comeback, so we never go

45:01

away. But

45:03

you notice you have faces where you appear

45:06

to be more in than you were and

45:08

stuff like that. But it's

45:11

nice, yeah, it's really nice when people like you. Yeah,

45:15

you can't be in control of that. You're not in

45:17

control of it, so you just sort of go with

45:19

it. And also

45:22

I think when you, there's come a point where you've been

45:24

around for such a long time, it's

45:26

now 40 years since Western Girls, that

45:32

people just sort of accept that you exist. You

45:35

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45:40

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46:38

It's interesting

46:45

that we talked to God and they put the

46:47

headline, music is not all good at ages, so

46:49

they made a big thing of it. It was

46:51

just throw away comment. It's true actually that younger

46:53

people will listen to music

46:56

by old people, which 40 years

46:59

ago they wouldn't have done. Yeah. What

47:02

do you think that is? I think there's more access

47:04

now, isn't there? I think there's a thing that the

47:07

history of pop and rock music is

47:10

so amazing. The

47:15

catalogue, this enormous ever growing

47:17

catalogue of songs is such

47:19

an amazing creative achievement

47:21

that's come from

47:24

musicians and songwriters. It

47:28

didn't really enter the

47:30

popular consciousness. It's

47:34

an incredible thing. I think

47:37

people respect and

47:39

enjoy the old catalogues of pop

47:42

music, whereas our

47:44

generation probably didn't

47:47

listen to the 1930s or 40s or something. Whereas

47:52

nowadays you will listen to the

47:54

Sex Pistols or the Smiths.

47:56

I also think there's a solidarity that

47:58

younger listeners have. with the political

48:00

causes and the times of a lot of that

48:03

era. Like if you think 70s, 80s music, there

48:06

was so much happening politically that I think it

48:08

just is imbued within that in the lyrics within

48:10

the music that people actually have something to like

48:13

grasp onto. Do you know what I mean? It's like there's

48:15

some sort of energy. If you think even if like

48:18

the story of certain singers like Sinead O'Connor,

48:20

all these people where they're sort of getting

48:22

rediscovered by 15 year olds now

48:24

because they were doing something, saying something, standing

48:26

up for something. And even if I think

48:29

about loneliness, like your song that came out

48:31

recently with the video about Alistair McClellan. When I

48:33

watched that video, it was so contemporary and so

48:35

even at this moment, like if you're living in

48:37

that town, you know, in the

48:40

video that could be happening right now. But it

48:42

also has this kind of

48:44

timeless thing about being someone on the

48:46

outside, but like this sense of longing

48:48

and yearning and like trying to find

48:50

your place and finding

48:52

your sexuality and waking up and I don't

48:54

know, and also just being young and rebelling

48:56

and having like being cool in a way.

48:58

But there's something so perfect about that

49:01

that I even think the new record

49:03

is going to relate to younger people

49:05

because it's I don't know,

49:07

I think I think ageism is so boring because we're

49:10

all still the same people we were when we were kids. We're

49:12

just probably more relaxed and more

49:15

purer. Well, I think, you know, ageism

49:17

was built into rock

49:20

music at the very beginning when Pete Townton sang Hope I Die

49:22

Before I Get Old. And

49:25

people used to be fashionable to say, you know, I

49:28

would never trust anyone near the age of 30.

49:30

It seems possibly old. And that sort of gone,

49:32

I think, maybe I sometimes think there

49:34

should be more

49:38

of a generation gap because I think generation camps

49:42

are quite creative and defining yourself against

49:45

the generation above you. I actually think

49:47

is or your parents generation is

49:50

quite creative. I don't necessarily

49:52

think that liking your parents

49:54

record collection is that

49:56

creative unless it's got the picture boys in it, which I guess I

49:58

do like it. the loop.

50:01

But so I don't know, some sort of

50:03

think you need a bit more of attention to get stuff going.

50:06

How do you stay focused? Where do you get inspiration

50:08

from on a daily basis when

50:10

it comes to your art? Focus.

50:15

No focus.

50:18

What is it that you turn

50:21

to? So say you feel like you want to create something

50:23

and you might be like well what is the

50:26

sound going to be? What are we referencing? I

50:28

mean politically you guys have been

50:30

really sort of connected especially during the

50:32

AIDS crisis and having that ability to

50:34

make music to cover

50:36

the trauma of what that was for everyone. Well that

50:39

probably didn't seem political. That was

50:41

just something one lived through.

50:43

I mean an enormous thing. It

50:45

was interesting. The TV series, It's the

50:47

Sin, I think brought

50:50

the AIDS crisis to the belated

50:52

attention of the heterosexual community. And

50:56

I think the gay community

50:58

was probably like

51:01

people after a war wanted

51:03

to forget about it because

51:05

it was so grim. But as

51:09

a lyricist I was never

51:12

afraid to write about it because it was happening

51:15

around us. It was in

51:17

one's life and so

51:19

obviously you write about anything that's in your life.

51:23

Did you ever have people at the time that were

51:25

prejudiced saying you can't write this, you shouldn't be saying

51:27

this? No. That's amazing

51:30

really for the time. Well

51:33

of course I wrote about

51:35

it in a sort of slightly poetic way.

51:39

I mean there's a song on our second album

51:41

and it's called It Couldn't Happen Here and it's

51:43

about having conversation with a friend in the early

51:45

80s about how this had happened to America but

51:47

it wasn't going to, he'd read it wasn't going

51:49

to happen here in the same way. And

51:52

then of course he got it and then died of it

51:55

and I wrote this song and I sort of didn't want him

51:57

to know it was about it. So the

51:59

lyrics are quite... to obscure because I didn't want him

52:01

to know I'd written about this while

52:03

I still wanted to express something about it and

52:06

it's a very beautiful song and

52:09

we actually wrote although we never

52:11

met him with any Amorikone using a piece

52:13

of his music. So

52:15

I think my part

52:18

of music is that you can sort

52:20

of say what you like in the verse I think because

52:22

someone's got gachikoras. So even

52:24

being boring which was written to be provocative

52:26

in a way with the idea

52:29

of being boring as a title came first because

52:31

it came from some review we had saying as

52:33

usual they're being boring and I was

52:35

just struck by how being boring had a sort of bouncy rhythm

52:37

to it and then

52:40

this friend of mine who died was sort of about our history

52:42

to share its history together. That means

52:44

still got a catchy chorus you know. One of my favourite

52:47

songs on the new record is Why Am I Dancing which

52:49

is the new single that's been... Not

52:51

a single actually. Oh it's not a single? No Dancing Stars

52:53

is a single. Oh Dancing Stars is a single? Yes, Cambridge

52:55

was played on radio today. Oh how funny. I'm

52:58

sorry I misunderstood that. Anyway

53:01

I love Why Am I Dancing. Let's

53:03

talk about Dancing Stars as well though because

53:05

that video a reference to the

53:08

dancer Rudolf Nureyev. Did you ever

53:10

meet him? No. Not

53:13

knowingly. Not knowingly. I was on

53:15

my dog you might have brought

53:18

my dog. I

53:23

think you'll have noticed by the way. Oh

53:27

no finally in the early 70s when I first came to London I

53:30

had some friends from Newcastle who worked at the

53:32

Royal Opera House and one of them was a

53:34

trainee ballet dancer. I think it was the

53:36

Royal Ballet School and they were always talking about

53:39

Rudy and Margaux so it was kind of in

53:41

my consciousness and ballet was. It

53:43

was always in my consciousness because when I was a kid we

53:45

used to go to the Royal Ballet and we used to go

53:47

to Newcastle and when I was nine years old

53:49

I wanted to be a ballet dancer. Did you? I

53:52

got Teach Yourself Ballet out of the local

53:54

library and I made my brother Simon who's

53:56

younger than me do a class, do bar.

54:00

Using a radiator. Oh a legend. I

54:03

was about 10 years about 7. Sadly

54:05

I was rapidly, I had no time for that. I didn't

54:07

know you then. My mum taught ballet. There you go. She

54:10

had a bit of marriage in heaven. Did you do it

54:12

as well then? No. You had no interest

54:14

in ballet? No. No. Well,

54:17

he's a little tutu. Well

54:19

what were you into then? Like obviously music,

54:21

but did you have any other sort of

54:24

creativity or like? I was

54:26

an architecture note. Oh architecture note. That was

54:29

when I was a student. But you went to

54:31

buildings and designers at the Theodore. No, no. Oh I used

54:33

to like playing with Lego. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

54:36

And we were moving house

54:38

a lot. So I always used to

54:41

imagine what the perfect house was for the

54:44

sort of thing. We just sort of got

54:46

interested in studying architecture. Never did get

54:48

to build a house ironically. Does your

54:50

house now look like that? Not giving up though. No, darn

54:52

it. You've got to find a plot of land. That's all

54:54

I've got to do. But the house

54:56

you live in now, is that sort of the house in

54:58

your head as a kid you imagined? No. I've

55:00

never lived in the perfect house. What is the

55:03

perfect house? For me it

55:05

would be probably

55:07

something like a Japanese ferro concrete

55:10

house. Concrete, steel,

55:13

glass. Very minimal.

55:16

Nothing in it. A courtyard?

55:18

I love courtyards.

55:21

Gotta room for table tennis table. What

55:24

is it about Rudolf Nureyev do you think then

55:26

that he has become such a popular

55:28

iconic figure? Obviously what he achieved but still

55:30

now he's relevant. Well it's interesting because when

55:33

we tell people what the song is about

55:35

people didn't know about him. So it's interesting

55:37

how fame doesn't necessarily last. But

55:39

there's in the last few years there was

55:41

I think I

55:43

saw I think we

55:46

wrote the song I think in 2020. I think

55:48

I saw something on the television about him. There

55:50

was a film about him wasn't there? And there's also

55:52

a film. Was it a documentary? There is a film.

55:54

But it has someone who looked like Rudolf Nureyev. It's

55:56

Ray Fined in. Story

56:00

them defecting is really interesting to see

56:02

he didn't. He didn't plan to say he

56:04

was in the. Moscow. Ballet

56:06

wasn't a com years in the mouth

56:08

of the Bolshoi, the Minsky Ballet and

56:10

there was Earth. They were touring Europe

56:12

they came to power isn't he hung

56:14

out? This is done sixteen only hung

56:17

out with all the to lox, the

56:19

senseless dogs and when they get the

56:21

airport are going to fly to London

56:23

his the Kgb hands as don't always

56:25

behaved and you'll get the airborne this

56:27

overdose you are not be flying to

56:29

him to London you begin back to

56:31

Moscow to perform full Premier Khrushchev and

56:33

he realizes and the to these friends

56:35

of their and. The young. They

56:38

inform the airport police and then they go

56:40

have to say goodbye to door from they

56:42

say if you just go over to those

56:44

two men say i want to leave that

56:46

I want to stay in Paris they you

56:49

know built as talking until because that is

56:51

really quite a massive a but when he

56:53

went to the airport wasn't planning to to

56:55

sex. Was. Because they they

56:57

the Kgb lot spring the surprise. these get a

57:00

knows he goes but he's gonna be in trouble.

57:03

You'll probably be expelled from Moscow. Be over.

57:05

Three. And he's a very creative ambitious

57:07

person and cause when he when he

57:10

comes London he's into the rest his

57:12

career. You know he runs the Do

57:14

The Powers or City Ballet and and

57:16

all sorts of things. and he choreographs

57:18

a lot of ballet so do cause

57:21

of the Swan Lake and So and

57:23

dumb. Is amazing and amazing

57:25

Canada but it never sees family back

57:27

in losses know they wouldn't let is

57:29

where he does actually. To. School

57:32

of comes on the eighties and know says

57:34

he nine nothing he goes to. Russia

57:37

and he sees his

57:39

mother. Whose dying and

57:41

who's that He saying to a

57:43

disease Not Rushdie's Thompson in in.

57:46

Mom knew you knew if

57:49

he some comes from the

57:51

east. And smothers Muslim.

57:54

Own done. Sir

57:56

I don't know. Sometimes some just comes

57:58

into has increased center. Music the

58:00

realities of a thing is to but my

58:03

wonder why it's courts Decided to see him

58:05

Sea Gulls The beginning is because it crysis

58:07

Demo It was a song about going to

58:09

the beach. Really

58:12

a mother. Simple pleasures. As

58:15

a Blackpool as it more like more

58:17

like a Benidorm and and and against

58:20

the Beach and I'm. For some

58:22

reason my dummy madonna not maybe take a dancing

58:24

on the has than as or dancing still and

58:27

then also owner of the with. So.

58:29

It's funny how these things come together in

58:31

a semi. Great is always people whose create

58:33

a world of some kind and is often

58:36

a world that he feels familiar with. The

58:38

actually it's completely other and quite strange and

58:40

one other thing to the new record from

58:42

the minute it begins the orchestral parts of

58:44

it sonically just take me somewhere else. was

58:47

have things like have been to before but

58:49

it is equally very familiar and the only

58:51

says this kind of like sonic architecture like

58:53

a space like the states to. Not Been

58:55

listening to the record on leave and I

58:57

don't just listen to one track. Allison's

59:00

the whole thing as a as a body

59:02

of work like as nine nine or ten

59:04

tracks like and just ten yeah cause there's

59:06

against another never. it's not that was on

59:09

Remittances have really go bucks dog and yeah

59:11

and it's really pretty poor. Nothing that I

59:13

have reduced kept thinking about escapism, nothing something

59:15

about the orchestral that the sonic quality of

59:17

this album that is a Pet Shop Boys

59:20

Boys record to the cool. But it's also

59:22

something really nice thing to thought James for

59:24

brought a lot to it's own. Because.

59:27

He likes on low since instance. Boats.

59:30

Who is us to sort seduced the

59:32

album by he was originally in some

59:34

him about his go and then he

59:37

was in the last other puppets allowed

59:39

to move from and then he's produced.

59:42

Maybe. Majority of the out among

59:45

season. But also his

59:47

works was like to see when people other.

59:51

And. he's written the

59:53

orchestra wrench into the friend disease that

59:56

women suited with me kept putting string

59:58

ideas done in it's a nice It

1:00:00

puts great is it a real orchestra though is a real

1:00:02

orchestra. I thought he meant for a minute Decided

1:00:07

any point to have an auction every track I

1:00:11

think we do in the album every

1:00:13

track Because sometimes

1:00:15

we have an auction we haven't also we just

1:00:17

come off three answers to your price Where

1:00:20

we've just done electronics love him Russell

1:00:22

and I saw him backstage at Madonna's

1:00:24

Yeah, yeah, amazing He's

1:00:28

great and he's a he's actually it's funny you'll

1:00:30

get someone like Jesse where it's got an album

1:00:32

half produced by James Ford not produced by Stewart

1:00:34

Price. Yes, exactly. Yeah Because

1:00:37

they're both I was very clever these producers now.

1:00:39

There's a big clever, you know Because

1:00:41

they have they have to be amazingly

1:00:44

good as programming me creating fans But

1:00:47

also very musical ever with paid guitar and stuff. And

1:00:49

why did you choose Tim Walker for the album cover?

1:00:52

Well, I loved him so much. I know him very

1:00:54

well, but I thought the photography was really Striking

1:00:57

with the light. Oh, yeah coming out of

1:01:00

your mouth. It's such a beautiful I don't

1:01:02

know if just perfect with this moment in

1:01:04

time So that was him approached us to

1:01:06

do a larger project. He's

1:01:08

doing for a gallery But

1:01:11

we weren't actually that keen on doing but

1:01:14

We'd occurred to us To

1:01:18

actually walked into our lives why not ask him

1:01:20

to do the album cover and And

1:01:22

he was he's a great guy He's really really

1:01:24

great and he had the idea of the light

1:01:26

thing read a couple other ideas and He

1:01:30

agreed to do the outcome Shortens

1:01:32

and that was good. I thought it

1:01:34

goes with the album even though why

1:01:36

really well There is a theatricality to

1:01:38

it as well. There's something I mean,

1:01:41

he's traditionally very theatrical and

1:01:45

He didn't do that for this. No, I know

1:01:47

but the suits that there's something about the way

1:01:49

you're both I don't know. I found it. It's

1:01:51

very particular. It's actually quite Oh,

1:01:54

yeah, there is a bit we've always had

1:01:56

the Gilbert George thing again It

1:01:59

wasn't a lot No. We

1:02:03

had photographs taken by Eric Watson, people said,

1:02:06

oh Gilbert and George. We

1:02:08

did ask them to work with us at the very beginning.

1:02:11

We knocked on the door and we actually got invited in,

1:02:13

which was quite something. You guys haven't collaborated. No.

1:02:16

We asked them to do a, we were going to do a

1:02:18

209.86 that we then couldn't afford to do so we didn't do

1:02:20

it. But we decided to ask Gilbert and George. I think because

1:02:22

people kept saying the Patrick Porsley was Gilbert and George of what

1:02:25

we said. We

1:02:27

went round, of course everyone knows where they live. So

1:02:29

we literally knocked on the door and we said, oh

1:02:31

you better, what did we say? And

1:02:35

Gilbert, Gilbert's English one I think, and

1:02:37

Gilbert answered the door. I

1:02:39

think we probably said, would you do a poster for

1:02:41

us? And he said, oh we don't do anything. We

1:02:43

said, oh he has a purpose. He has purpose. And

1:02:46

then Chris banded forward and said, oh he doesn't have a purpose. He said,

1:02:48

oh you better come in then. You better come in then. And erm. He

1:02:51

doesn't have a purpose. I'll come in then. It

1:02:53

doesn't matter. Great. We

1:02:56

saw all the ceramics on these. Anyway,

1:03:01

we never heard of them anymore. Have

1:03:03

people assumed that you were a couple for

1:03:05

most of your career? Certainly Tom

1:03:07

Watkins did at the beginning. He

1:03:09

was disappointed. Well he wanted to be thrown out of the

1:03:11

band. When he wanted to. Neil, everyone knows. I've hoped you've

1:03:13

done this. We didn't use the tellers to it. We didn't

1:03:15

use the tellers. Neil, everyone

1:03:17

knows Chris is just in the band because he's your boyfriend.

1:03:21

And he doesn't do anything. And I said,

1:03:24

Tom, one is not. And

1:03:27

two, I mean he writes music

1:03:29

and no tons of music. I said, for instance, we've

1:03:31

just written this song called Suburbia.

1:03:34

And Chris wrote, had a track and then I put the words

1:03:36

to it. And he goes, oh Neil. Actually

1:03:40

the reason this came about in a recent

1:03:42

interview was because Billy Ray Martin had just

1:03:45

done it. Oh yes it was.

1:03:47

And they were briefly managed by Tom

1:03:49

Watkins. Electribe 101 were briefly managed by

1:03:51

Tom Watkins. And he

1:03:53

wanted her thrown out of the group as well. She was the

1:03:55

singer. So it

1:03:57

was something you used to do, wasn't it? Wow.

1:04:00

Are you going to tour this record? Well,

1:04:02

we're doing a tour, which we're

1:04:05

now we knew three of equates

1:04:07

to tour, but we're gonna put the two singles, two

1:04:09

new songs in, but we haven't been to various places

1:04:11

for that yet. So we're carrying on doing that. And

1:04:13

we're doing the Royal Opera House. I was gonna say,

1:04:15

which I saw in about 2016 or so. Yeah, I

1:04:18

always remember that was a different show, a different show.

1:04:20

But it was one of my favorite shows in pop

1:04:23

music I've ever seen, because it was the intimacy of

1:04:25

it and just the the extraordinary weird

1:04:27

thing to be in the Royal Opera House

1:04:29

listening to electro music. It was so brilliant.

1:04:31

It's a great venue. We do it really

1:04:33

because it brings a different

1:04:35

audience into there. And also our audience get

1:04:38

to go with this massive plush

1:04:40

opera house, which you wouldn't probably normally go

1:04:42

to. The best fit with Princess Julia in

1:04:44

the bar afterwards at the after party. And

1:04:47

I love her and I've known her since I

1:04:49

was about 18 or something. And I heard that

1:04:51

you guys have actually just collaborated together. Well, Tom

1:04:53

Stephan is the next in a remix of this

1:04:55

song, which is besides it's good truck. They're called

1:04:57

party in the blitz. And

1:04:59

this kids because of the that

1:05:01

that's the blitz in the war. But as

1:05:05

as the Blitz Club from the late 70s, and

1:05:08

Julia used to go to that we sort of know Julia,

1:05:11

Tom asked Princess Julia if

1:05:13

she'd say something

1:05:16

on it. And she just

1:05:18

says, famous

1:05:20

I think Steve Strange used to say,

1:05:22

would you let you win or some

1:05:24

one of those evil queens monitoring the

1:05:28

door of a club? You said, would you let

1:05:30

you win? And so she says that

1:05:32

on it. And also part in the blitz. But she

1:05:34

sounds great. I actually did a duet with her when

1:05:37

I was in my band, Tempershark. And the first time

1:05:39

I ever met you was at someone's concert. And I

1:05:41

can't remember who it was. And I gave you one

1:05:43

of my demo CDs. And what was it? Finish CD.

1:05:46

Oh, was it finished CD? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. It was a

1:05:48

guy six. We're single. It's better to have love. That's right. I

1:05:50

had a flower on it. I don't know where we were. But

1:05:52

anyway, Sam was there. Yeah, I don't know what we were doing.

1:05:54

Yeah. What's it been like working

1:05:57

with Sam? Actually, it was a good one. Well, yeah, I just want to

1:05:59

ask, because you're looking for people to stage your

1:06:01

tour then now because you've worked with... No,

1:06:03

no, this one has been done... Actually, we

1:06:05

started working on this in 2019, but then

1:06:07

we had two years out. And

1:06:11

Ezz Devlin's done several of our tours. Oh, I love

1:06:13

her. But Ezz wasn't available because she was going to

1:06:15

be doing something else. She didn't happen in the end.

1:06:18

Anyway, in the meantime, we asked this

1:06:20

guy, Tom Scott. Oh, yes, Tom. I know Tom.

1:06:22

Yeah, a bit designer. Yeah. He just did cabaret.

1:06:24

He did cabaret. With self-esteem. Yeah. I love Tom.

1:06:26

I did constellations with him. Oh, yeah. So talented.

1:06:29

He's brilliant. I saw the play about

1:06:32

the poisoning of Litvinenko

1:06:34

at the Old Fick.

1:06:36

And I liked the design. And I

1:06:39

said, maybe I should approach this guy.

1:06:41

And anyway, and then we

1:06:44

worked out. And then there was the lockdown. And then

1:06:46

we came back. We simplified it crucially and

1:06:50

actually worked out really, really well. He's done a great job. And

1:06:52

so we're still touring that show. One

1:06:54

of my favorite moments in Pet Shop Boys history

1:06:57

is Home and Dry, the song, initially,

1:06:59

and then the video, which you did with Wolfgang

1:07:02

Tomlin. Yes. Which I don't know

1:07:04

if you can just talk about working with Wolfgang

1:07:06

and your friendship with him because he's a previous

1:07:08

talker, I guess, but also somebody that I think

1:07:10

is such another like world maker and through his

1:07:12

art and music. And you guys are working collectively

1:07:14

through his music. We've remissed a couple of his

1:07:16

tracks. Yes. Wow. Yeah. Well, actually,

1:07:19

he started. He gives

1:07:21

Chris credit for starting to make music.

1:07:23

Really? Yeah, we were at a dinner

1:07:25

in Berlin for that woman that you

1:07:27

like. Iza Genskin. Yeah. I love that

1:07:29

woman that you like. Yeah. Yeah.

1:07:35

Well, I should be sold. I knew

1:07:37

who he meant. Yeah. She's

1:07:39

a character. There's some bars and she's like,

1:07:42

what was that? What's she called again? Iza

1:07:44

Genskin. Iza Genskin. She's just walked past. She

1:07:46

was married. Go hard,

1:07:48

Richter. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, she's quiet. It's

1:07:50

something, isn't she? Anyway, we're at a dinner for that now. We sat

1:07:53

next to Wolfgang. We got to her about music. And so I don't

1:07:55

know why you don't just... It's so simple.

1:07:57

You know, Neil can do it now. I'm

1:08:00

in the open. Anyone can do it. It's great. I

1:08:02

thought it started. It just gets, you know, programmed. You

1:08:04

chose him to buy something. He

1:08:07

had in the 80s. Yeah. It's

1:08:10

really good. And the video you guys made together. Well, he made the

1:08:12

video. No, no, I know, but it was for your friend though. This

1:08:14

was all raps on the Underground. I know, but I love that one.

1:08:16

Oh, that one. That one, yeah. It was

1:08:18

Mice, wasn't it? Mice. Black Mice. Yeah.

1:08:21

That's so beautiful. Yeah. I

1:08:24

love the little one. That. The video

1:08:26

is meant to be something else. It was literally a completely different idea. I

1:08:29

was going to show it on the television. Yeah. We got cell

1:08:31

phones to show us. Why? Because it

1:08:33

was Mice. Well, too weird. Too

1:08:35

weird. The record company was horrified. Too weird. I

1:08:38

think I bought the DVD. Who knows if MTV was a thing

1:08:40

and they wouldn't show us. Yeah. And

1:08:42

was that quite upsetting or are you a bit like,

1:08:44

I don't know, I don't know. I don't know. I

1:08:46

don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I

1:08:49

don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Is

1:08:52

that quite upsetting or are you a bit like Fuck'em?

1:08:55

We're a bit like Fuck'em. It's sort of annoying.

1:08:57

Actually, the reason I wouldn't show it is because

1:08:59

it's shot on video. It was shot on film.

1:09:02

I mean, I always thought it was a really cute video.

1:09:04

I love that video. I think it's a genius

1:09:06

movie. They're going to be shot on film and sort of lit

1:09:09

like a Disney film. I wouldn't have loved it probably. But

1:09:12

it was a new thing as well. It looks

1:09:14

very wolf-kind, doesn't it? Oh, yeah. He

1:09:17

also came up with the album title for... The

1:09:19

album release. Release. We're

1:09:22

going to call it... We're going to call it something terrible.

1:09:24

We're going to call it home. Anyway, oh, you don't want

1:09:26

to do that. Just call it something like release. Great.

1:09:31

That's it. Great. Also,

1:09:33

Disco 3 was originally called London Berlin.

1:09:36

And he said, no, but surely it's remixes. Should

1:09:39

we Disco 3? Because we've done the series as well. He

1:09:41

has a real logic. He's got a real logic. He's a

1:09:43

good thinker. Just in the way he works in his practice

1:09:45

anyway, there's a lot of logic with the songs. Yeah,

1:09:50

I wouldn't want to miss my lecture at university.

1:09:52

I'd feel challenged. I'd feel too challenged. I mean,

1:09:54

he does probably do that. Do

1:10:00

you go and look at art a lot?

1:10:02

Yes. Where do you have regular

1:10:04

galleries? I'm not obviously Carl Friedman Gallery, you're

1:10:06

very long. Obviously. Obviously. You've been to Margot

1:10:08

Avenue, haven't you? You came to Margot Avenue.

1:10:11

I've been to Margot Avenue. Have you? I

1:10:13

thought you had. Oh no, not for able

1:10:15

to. You were touring there. Are

1:10:17

there places or commercial galleries or certain programs

1:10:19

that you follow? I mean, we

1:10:22

knew a lot of artists right in

1:10:24

the reasonably early days of the Brit Art period.

1:10:26

So we knew Jay Joplin, you know White Cube?

1:10:29

Yeah, of course. It was just a little room.

1:10:32

Sadie Coles. And

1:10:36

we sort of would know from

1:10:38

the Grouch show, what used to be Demi Nuss but actually, Gary

1:10:41

Hu for instance. So

1:10:43

the YBA's. The YBA's. Sam.

1:10:46

And Tracy. Tracy, of course, yeah. And

1:10:50

we got Sam to do

1:10:52

our show at the Savoy Theatre in 1997. And

1:10:56

she had the brilliant idea of this

1:11:00

party on two screens, two sofas. And we

1:11:02

leave the sofas and come off and walk

1:11:04

onto the stage. And then at the end

1:11:06

of the first half, we walk back onto

1:11:09

the sofas. And that

1:11:11

was it. And the second half, it was the

1:11:13

same thing again. But also we filmed live because

1:11:15

the music was digital so we could film it

1:11:17

to a click track. The second

1:11:19

half, everyone, we had to re-shoot the first half.

1:11:23

And then so by the time we did the

1:11:25

second half, everyone was actually completely pissed. And everyone

1:11:27

was like Pauline Daly who worked for the Savoy

1:11:29

Theatre. Yeah, same time. He's an amazing

1:11:31

dancer. Johnny Jan Kidd is in it. I

1:11:33

think everyone was phoning up, weren't they afterwards,

1:11:35

saying you can't. Jay Jopling's in it. I

1:11:39

think they're all... Is that available on YouTube? Can you see

1:11:41

that? It will be. Yeah. We

1:11:44

put out a DVD. Where

1:11:46

do you look now then for

1:11:48

artists? Do you feel like you...

1:11:50

I go to sort

1:11:53

of young galleries as well. There's a gallery

1:11:55

called The Artist's Room. Oh,

1:11:57

yeah, yeah, yeah. I bought a few

1:11:59

things from... Yeah, they have a great Instagram as

1:12:01

well. They do have a great Instagram. I've

1:12:05

always been a very haphazard fire

1:12:09

of artworks. And you collect Derek Jarman's

1:12:11

work as well. No, I only have

1:12:13

one Derek Jarman. I've got one painting,

1:12:16

one of those very thick oil paintings.

1:12:18

Oh, the dungeness one. That's a beautiful

1:12:20

painting. When I moved into my house,

1:12:22

it was right before lockdown. I had some

1:12:24

friends come and come and hug the art. I

1:12:29

realised the situation when they'd hung. I said, wow, all

1:12:31

the art in this room is by women. And

1:12:34

you hadn't realised. It's like

1:12:36

when I went to the queer art show at the

1:12:38

Tate Gallery, Tate Britain, and I

1:12:41

thought, well, I've got a queer

1:12:43

art collection. Who knew? Because I've

1:12:45

got... I used to

1:12:48

have a load of Simmons-Hollandons, which I

1:12:50

sold actually, but Keith Fawn and people

1:12:52

like that. Modern artists like Paul

1:12:54

Peay, for instance. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Leijer Burgers. I

1:12:56

really, really like. I don't know if you know

1:12:59

Leijer Burgers. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know,

1:13:01

you've had a show in Britain before, and I've got seven

1:13:04

paintings. Paul Peay's having a real

1:13:06

resurgence. Paul Peay, yeah. I

1:13:09

never buy things as an investment. I

1:13:13

don't even know how to go about

1:13:15

that, guys. But I am a

1:13:17

bit of a haphazard collector. I buy things because I like

1:13:19

them once by the moment. When Carl and I came to

1:13:21

your house in Kent, we left and in the car, we

1:13:25

said that's the first time we've been to a collector's house

1:13:27

where it actually feels like a proper collection. Like it's what

1:13:29

you would hope as a gallerist would be, because

1:13:31

it felt like you actually loved everything you

1:13:33

lived with. And you had a story behind

1:13:35

every single work. It wasn't like, oh, here's

1:13:37

a work by that person. It was like

1:13:39

an identical thing. I'd never seen a

1:13:41

collection like that before, and it was yours, and it

1:13:44

was a really beautiful thing. Oh,

1:13:46

you don't see it. I can't understand

1:13:48

that. Something with personality. You buy stuff,

1:13:50

then you get rid of stuff. So

1:13:53

I got rid of stuff because I bought a

1:13:55

big house in Durham, and I

1:13:58

sold it, and I got rid of loads of stuff. and I'm

1:14:00

room for it. And so I've kept the

1:14:02

ones I like. And so it's good to edit it down.

1:14:05

And that's when you start to feel more personal

1:14:07

because the choices that have been made twice

1:14:10

have been bought. And then the next

1:14:12

for sure. Yeah. They

1:14:15

must be like diary entries though. I was finding, because

1:14:17

I've been collecting for so many years now, that I

1:14:19

look at a painting ago where that's when I did

1:14:21

the History Boys on Broadway. I bought that photograph when

1:14:23

I did that play there. And they

1:14:25

become like moments of your

1:14:27

own legacy. Well, I've got paintings

1:14:30

I've had a long time. And

1:14:32

also I've got paintings that I sold. And

1:14:35

I did a fantastic painting

1:14:38

by the... Austen Krauss painter, who is not

1:14:40

pretty much like Walter Crane. I also designed

1:14:43

wallpaper. And so it was called La Primavera.

1:14:45

And it was this beautiful just a woman

1:14:47

picking flowers in the field of Daffodils. And

1:14:50

it was a very beautiful painting. And I

1:14:52

sold it as Christie's or something. And when

1:14:54

I moved, and I still miss it. And

1:14:57

so you regret selling it? I don't regret selling it

1:14:59

because I don't know where it would go now. But

1:15:02

I still miss it. When

1:15:04

I had a house, another house

1:15:06

I had, I had this

1:15:08

enormous Victorian painting of

1:15:11

the flight from Egypt,

1:15:13

the Holy Family leaving,

1:15:15

arriving in Egypt, flight into Egypt, arriving in

1:15:17

Egypt. And what was interesting is

1:15:20

it was the artist had a big success with

1:15:22

this painting. So he did a copy of it.

1:15:24

But during the copy, he died. So it

1:15:26

was unfinished. So it was this Victorian

1:15:28

realistic painting. It was unfinished. So it

1:15:31

was very interesting. And

1:15:33

I sold it. It probably looked

1:15:35

better. Because actually, the original is in the gallery

1:15:37

in Bournemouth, I know from playing there on tour,

1:15:39

called the Russell Coates Gallery. They've actually got the

1:15:41

original one. So when we play in Bournemouth, I

1:15:44

go to the Russell Coates Gallery and see the

1:15:46

flight into Egypt, the painting, the original one that

1:15:48

they've got. And I can't meet it,

1:15:50

but it's an enormous painting. It took up a whole

1:15:52

wall. But I sort

1:15:54

of miss it. I used to have a painting, right

1:15:56

at the beginning I used to collect Victorian paintings. I

1:16:01

bought this big work, Freeze

1:16:03

by Pablo Bronstein. It's actually

1:16:06

brilliant. From Helen Street Gallery. Yeah, at

1:16:08

Freeze though. Anyway, by

1:16:10

the time these things get delivered, it's forever.

1:16:12

It takes forever. Anyway, in my house in

1:16:14

Durham, this enormous lorry arrived and

1:16:17

I thought, God, why is the lorry so

1:16:19

big? And then I see the work. And

1:16:22

I had this space above the stairs with this

1:16:24

big Victorian painting of King Lear. And

1:16:27

I said to the art moving people, I said, well, you

1:16:29

better take that down, stick it in your van, put it

1:16:31

in storage and hang this one up and set. And

1:16:34

it occurred to me I'd never googled the painting of

1:16:36

King Lear. And it

1:16:38

turned out it had been commissioned by

1:16:40

Isambard Kingdom Brunel, a famous

1:16:43

bridge builder, and he'd commissioned in his

1:16:45

house in Bristol a Shakespeare room and

1:16:47

had been commissioned for it. I'd never

1:16:49

ever looked it up. It

1:16:51

was about a piece that themselves had quite a lot of money.

1:16:54

But it was a big one. I missed that painting too.

1:16:56

It's funny. Pablo

1:16:58

Bronstein, yes. And do you actually look at the work

1:17:00

a lot then that you live with? Well, when you

1:17:02

live with art, you look at it all the time.

1:17:04

And also you sort of move it around a bit.

1:17:07

Marry's in London and always moving the art around. I

1:17:10

do exactly. Do you live with art, Chris?

1:17:12

Always. I haven't got the collector gene at

1:17:14

all. I've never had it. So

1:17:16

for a long time, I had a flight in London, which was very

1:17:18

minimal. So it couldn't take

1:17:20

any art. Now I've got

1:17:23

a big old sort of Georgian house. And you just

1:17:25

need to put stuff on the wall. So for me,

1:17:27

it's a bit mature. I

1:17:30

feel envious. I would

1:17:32

actually prefer to live in a

1:17:34

house with nothing. Really? Yeah,

1:17:37

that's my goal. I just can't. Like

1:17:39

my brother's completely minimal. No need for

1:17:41

anything. And I just have stuff and

1:17:43

acquiring. I

1:17:46

mean, we know lots of people. You know. Well,

1:17:50

you're in a minority in this room. No, I know.

1:17:52

I don't really like that. That's

1:17:57

why I love Spotify. need

1:18:00

to own anything it's just there it's brilliant.

1:18:03

So I've still got all my CDs and DVDs and I

1:18:05

can't get rid of them. I'm about to

1:18:07

get rid of my pop

1:18:09

CDs but they're all

1:18:11

on Spotify. I've been through them by

1:18:13

the way I've kept priorities but I've

1:18:16

kept my vinyl but that's because a

1:18:18

lot of it's not available on Spotify.

1:18:20

I've got my smash hits era vinyl

1:18:22

collection of 12-inch records uh you know

1:18:24

12-inch singles because then they're not necessarily

1:18:27

available. Having said that I never played

1:18:29

them. So incredible that you

1:18:31

were Deputy Editor of Smash Hits magazine. Then

1:18:34

you had a pop career and you're

1:18:36

on the cover of Smash Hits magazine. And

1:18:39

that by the way was all done within a year. I

1:18:42

got a fake smash hits cover in

1:18:45

March 935 and

1:18:47

in January 1986, Chris now on the cover of

1:18:51

Smash Hits. So wild. That's

1:18:55

manifestation isn't it? Unfortunately I've lost a fake cover.

1:18:57

I don't know where it is. It must be

1:18:59

somewhere. I can't find it. Oh you

1:19:01

were throwing it away. You

1:19:04

would have done. You were throwing it

1:19:06

away. I've shredded everything. You're

1:19:09

very much an archivist. Yes I am. Oh you

1:19:11

are? You're absolutely. I'm really an archivist. Neil knows

1:19:13

where everything is. If you were to say what's

1:19:15

his email from 10 years ago about

1:19:17

this you'd find it

1:19:20

like that. Would you? I

1:19:22

select it all and delete. I

1:19:25

never do that. I've got a friend who gets

1:19:27

a text message and they read it and go

1:19:29

read that and delete it. I'm like why are

1:19:31

you deleting it? I don't know. You mean mine

1:19:33

go back like 10 years. Delete everything, shred everything.

1:19:36

It is fascinating the conversations that go on. Yes

1:19:39

it is a weird thing that. Yeah. We've

1:19:42

got one so when we first met and the way

1:19:44

we were communicating with each other. Our language is so

1:19:46

weird. We've been so flowery with each other and trying

1:19:48

to show off about you know how

1:19:50

we could communicate and talk about art with each

1:19:53

other. Now it's like oh shut up you slag. Now

1:19:55

we're like block block. I feel like I've emailed you

1:19:57

a lot. I think I emailed you when certain music

1:19:59

comes out. I'm not that I'm obsessed with. Yes

1:20:01

you have not. I'm getting ready. It's coming

1:20:03

up. I'm getting ready. It's coming

1:20:06

up. If you could collaborate with any artist

1:20:08

for album art or

1:20:11

to direct shows living or alive,

1:20:13

who would it be? Well,

1:20:16

for ages you wanted to collaborate with Bruce

1:20:18

Nauman. And also Robert

1:20:20

Wilson. Oh, Robert Wilson's amazing.

1:20:22

Wanted to collaborate with us. Yeah. But

1:20:25

he wanted us to. Who was it? He

1:20:27

phoned me up. It was through

1:20:30

Rufus Wainwright actually. Because Rufus did Shakespeare

1:20:32

songs with him. And the show,

1:20:34

which I'm astonished, has never come to the

1:20:36

Globe Theatre because it's doing brilliant. He wanted

1:20:38

us to do the Iliad for the National

1:20:40

Theatre of Greece. And I

1:20:42

said, well, isn't there anyone Greek?

1:20:45

And I said, no,

1:20:47

we're actually doing a new album. We're doing the album Me. I

1:20:50

think yes. And

1:20:53

he said, well, you know, you could do what

1:20:55

Lou did. Lou Reed. You could do what Lou did. He just

1:20:57

became his new album. I said, years in work like that. Yeah,

1:20:59

but it was like four weeks. He had a four-week deadline. Why

1:21:02

appeal to me first? He was going to live in...

1:21:04

Oh, I love the idea. It's just that there wasn't enough time. people.

1:21:07

And what about contemporary? Contemporary. I

1:21:10

mean, we have done over the years, you know, Derry Jamond. appendyofa

1:21:13

FIFA LED game. I

1:21:43

was a tour manager. We

1:21:55

went through a meeting. The tour manager is always trying to

1:21:57

bring it back to reality. There's

1:22:01

too much thing I mean Trot is going to take

1:22:03

to that's their job. And

1:22:06

he said, oh

1:22:08

you can try this. She goes, oh,

1:22:11

oh, so you're the designer now. So

1:22:15

you so OK, so you're the designer now. Oh,

1:22:18

I even thought I felt

1:22:20

so much. She's like

1:22:22

that to her staff. Oh, why

1:22:25

do you say that is stupid? Yeah. And

1:22:27

she was anyway, we loved her. She's great. She's the

1:22:29

one who did the show that she designed. The bright

1:22:31

inches all flushed from dancing. The audience

1:22:33

wearing them. Is he Miyaki? Is

1:22:36

he Miyaki? Please. That's amazing.

1:22:39

Now I'm just going to go, I don't think we

1:22:41

have a potential. We usually work with Rini Matic. Don't

1:22:44

learn. If you're looking at their photographer.

1:22:47

Their work's brilliant. I feel like it would

1:22:50

really work with this

1:22:52

with the same aesthetic that Tillman's work scene

1:22:54

and the same aesthetic that Derek Jarman did

1:22:56

at the State of England again. Yeah, very

1:22:58

much so. We came to work with people

1:23:00

for shows. So we did just collaborate with

1:23:02

Tom Scott. Yes. We have done a load

1:23:05

of shows with the Esteban. Any

1:23:07

video with Alastair McClellan? Alastair McClellan? I love

1:23:09

Alastair. Yeah, we love him. Amazing photographer. And

1:23:11

I was actually really impressed in the movie,

1:23:14

the video. He did it by the way.

1:23:16

It's so specific to his vision. That's

1:23:18

his story of that song, not ours. It's great.

1:23:21

It is. It's completely here. So

1:23:23

we don't really get to work

1:23:25

with the painter. It

1:23:28

doesn't happen. Yeah. Rini, they're

1:23:30

a photographer. A photographer, yeah. Yeah, you should check it out.

1:23:32

I will do. They've been on Toolkart as well.

1:23:35

But very, very good. All right, well, we're

1:23:37

going to get to our final questions now, guys. You've

1:23:39

been amazing. I thought that was it. We've

1:23:41

got three questions that we ask every guest that

1:23:43

comes on. The first one is, you guys

1:23:45

could do an art heist. I think it's going to be easier for

1:23:47

you, Neil. You could steal any artwork

1:23:49

in the world for yourself. What would it be and why?

1:23:55

It's going to be good, isn't it? You could

1:23:57

steal a building, Chris, if you want to steal. I

1:24:02

would probably steal sort

1:24:06

of Rembrandt late-sell portrait. Have

1:24:08

you seen them? I

1:24:12

mean they're just amazingly philosophical

1:24:14

paintings. I've got an idea

1:24:16

amazingly. I quite like Roscoe's

1:24:19

stuff. Oh go

1:24:21

on. Where was it? A

1:24:23

room full of them is really good. You talked

1:24:25

about the... I could have that room. I

1:24:31

could have that room. I could have that room. It could be

1:24:34

the table tennis room. Yes, you have the

1:24:36

table tennis name of your Roscoe's and make sure the ball doesn't fly

1:24:38

off into one of them. Main man

1:24:40

Roscoe's. That's like when

1:24:42

you play table tennis on your own and

1:24:44

they make you lift up the table. Have

1:24:46

you? But you could just play it against

1:24:48

the Roscoe. Yeah, I think it's a Seagrams

1:24:50

building or something wasn't it? That you made

1:24:52

the commission for. And then he didn't want

1:24:54

anyone sitting around eating them and use them

1:24:56

as decorations. Seagrams, yes. That's

1:24:58

what I do. The other question we ask every guest

1:25:00

is what is your favourite colour? Blue.

1:25:04

What came to my head was blue. Oh, you both

1:25:06

like blue. Why blue? It should really be red but

1:25:08

blue is the answer. And why blue? Why should it

1:25:11

be red though? Arsenal. Oh god,

1:25:13

alright. Great.

1:25:15

The first time football has ever been mentioned

1:25:17

on the court card. Yeah,

1:25:19

I thought the thing was... Probably.

1:25:22

Although we should really do an episode about that in the

1:25:24

last time. No, there's Oof magazine and gallery. I love them.

1:25:26

I want them to come on. We talked about them at

1:25:28

Tottenham. They are in Tottenham, sorry. Have you ever known David

1:25:30

Beckham on the show? No. Tottenham

1:25:33

is a Tottenham arrival of Arsenal. Oh

1:25:35

come on, you know that. We

1:25:38

saw you in a play about football. I took

1:25:40

you to that. You were acting. You

1:25:43

were just acting. I thought that

1:25:45

was really you as well. The pass. We

1:25:47

went for that and we had dinner afterwards. That's

1:25:49

right. You remember that? We

1:25:51

went for a dinner. Oh yes, exactly. Oh my

1:25:54

god. Wait, why is

1:25:56

blue your favourite colour? It's

1:25:58

blue, I don't know. It just is. Okay. Derek

1:26:01

Jarman's blue. Oh Derek Jarman's blue.

1:26:03

Yeah, that was Eve Klein blue. Eve Klein

1:26:05

blue. That's a nice blue, innit? Yeah. Um...

1:26:08

That's what Eve Klein... Do you know why I

1:26:10

thought Eve Klein for many years was a woman? Oh

1:26:12

really? Because of Eve. I thought Eve was a woman, so... Did you

1:26:14

put a sign about Eve's head around? No,

1:26:17

I didn't really. It's funny though, it's funny though.

1:26:19

I've never thought of that. Yes. I

1:26:22

think I thought... I think Eve's final order's name

1:26:24

is a logo. Yeah. Whereas Eve

1:26:26

Klein, I probably haven't seen written down. Right,

1:26:28

right, right. So I think I thought it

1:26:30

was EVE. What is the best advice

1:26:33

you've ever received in terms of your work and your

1:26:35

art? Don't. Stop. Stop.

1:26:42

I don't think we've ever got any advice, have we? Do

1:26:44

we ever listen to any... Have

1:26:47

we ever listened to any advice? Don't listen.

1:26:49

Probably not. I

1:26:51

do always think that

1:26:53

if everyone has the same reaction

1:26:56

to something... They're probably

1:26:58

all wrong. Probably all right.

1:27:00

All right. Yeah. I know

1:27:03

the piece of advice Chris often

1:27:05

quotes though, which I do like, is

1:27:08

Andy Warhol saying, which I was arguing against,

1:27:10

but I've just said, if

1:27:12

everyone hates what you're doing, keep doing it, because you're

1:27:15

obviously doing something right. Well, I do agree with that.

1:27:17

And there are a lot of times when we have

1:27:19

done that. If you look at some

1:27:21

of the imagery we've produced, like when we did the

1:27:23

Nightlife album, we wore these strange wigs and big eyebrows

1:27:25

and stuff. You

1:27:29

know, it was very unfriendly. And

1:27:31

something the Patcher Boys have never done

1:27:33

is necessarily make it easy.

1:27:36

I'm ticking our shows. I show

1:27:38

you always go to the difficult bit to get to the Thunder. And

1:27:42

I sort of think we feel that somehow represents

1:27:44

the way life works as well. I

1:27:48

think Andy Warhol has said, if you just keep working by

1:27:50

the time people criticize it, you're already on to the

1:27:52

next thing. He's

1:27:54

probably right about that as well. Did you ever meet him?

1:27:57

No, but I once was at the nightclub

1:27:59

in... New York in 1933 called Area,

1:28:01

my favourite nightclub of all time. Area,

1:28:03

they used to re-dress it every month and

1:28:06

they had living artworks and stuff. And

1:28:08

I was there with a friend of mine, Kimblee Leston,

1:28:10

we were launching the American Smash Hits and

1:28:13

we used to go out every single night. And I

1:28:15

turned around to ask her what she wanted to

1:28:17

drink and Andy Warhol was down in there. And

1:28:19

he was, he'd just obviously come for some uptown

1:28:21

party using a dinner jacket with jeans. And

1:28:24

that was fine. I thought, wow, that is

1:28:26

just amazing. I never get enough of Andy

1:28:28

Warhol. Every book. Did you like the Netflix?

1:28:33

Yes, that was great. I liked it, but

1:28:35

if you have an elegiac cause, I don't really feel the

1:28:37

diaries have. I

1:28:39

have the Andy Warhol diaries by

1:28:41

my bed. And if I

1:28:43

wake up and I'm worrying about

1:28:45

something, you can,

1:28:48

so big, you can just open any page at

1:28:50

random and then he's bitching up Bianca Jack. We

1:28:52

find the date of the day we are now

1:28:54

and then look at the date and what he

1:28:56

was doing then and go, what was he doing?

1:28:59

I just opened it at random. And, and

1:29:01

I read two pages. That's all it takes.

1:29:03

And it's reset my brain completely. That's

1:29:06

the magic of Andy Warhol. That's the magic of Andy Warhol.

1:29:08

This has been wonderful, guys. Thank you so much. And that's

1:29:10

all. Was that the three questions? That was the three questions.

1:29:13

I didn't think we answered any of them very well. We

1:29:15

have loved spending this hour and a bit with you.

1:29:18

The new album Pet Shop Boys nonetheless is

1:29:20

out now. That is right now today. You

1:29:22

can download it, stream it by On Vinyl.

1:29:24

You can do all kinds of things. And

1:29:27

Dancing Star and you can download as well

1:29:29

as on there. Dancing Star is a music

1:29:31

video. Yes. And it's out now. And also

1:29:33

Loneliness. I love the Loneliness video. You can

1:29:35

see that too. And there's also other videos coming, but you

1:29:37

have to wait and see what those are. And your website

1:29:39

is very, very good. Thank you. Well,

1:29:41

we again, we see it as an archive. It

1:29:44

is. It truly is. It's literally like down to the day.

1:29:46

It's like on this day in 1997. There's a guide as

1:29:48

a website. Love that. Pet

1:29:51

Shop Boys Song by Song commentary. And he does the history

1:29:53

thing. And we have a link from his website. It's really

1:29:55

good. I love that. I saw an amazing thing about it.

1:29:58

Obviously I'm obsessed with Derek Jarman. You

1:30:00

are swayed concert the German

1:30:02

during the. Speech. At

1:30:04

the beginning he date is without the answer

1:30:07

is where you and avec on Jay down

1:30:09

as run It's so beautiful Ninety One Yeah

1:30:11

yeah oh yeah now you may well as

1:30:13

nice in allows it who systems in to

1:30:16

get kind of him to seal the summer?

1:30:18

Three is in the. Yeah

1:30:20

Scott are staring at me as thank you

1:30:22

so much for coming on Taco truck stabbing

1:30:24

us on a zola was my amount of

1:30:26

us. fastest every once in a on probably

1:30:28

molests over. I'm very happy. Oh so it's.

1:30:37

Like a full of Iowa. Ah.

1:30:43

You been listening to Talk Up with

1:30:45

Robert Diamonds and Russell Tovey. Follow us

1:30:47

on Instagram at took off for you

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to view images of or outlets discussed

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in today's episode with nice. If I

1:30:54

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