0:15

Pushkin. This

0:33

is talk easy, I'm saying Frago, So welcome

0:37

to the show.

0:50

Today.

0:51

I'm joined by comedian, writer and actor

0:54

Jiron Carmichael. In just under

0:56

a decade, He's had a remarkably

0:58

varied and accomplished career.

1:01

He's been the creator and star of his own NBC

1:04

sitcom, The Jon Carmichael

1:06

Show. He's acted in films like

1:08

Neighbors, Too, Poor Things, and On

1:10

the Count of Three, which he also co

1:12

wrote and directed, And then, of course,

1:14

you have his stand up specials Loved

1:16

the Store, directed by Spike Lee, eight

1:19

directed by Bo Burnham, and Rothaniel,

1:21

which he released in twenty twenty two

1:24

and won an Emmy in twenty twenty three for

1:26

Best Comedy Special. But Rthaniel

1:29

was not your standard comedy

1:31

act. It was more confessional than

1:34

comedic, in part because at

1:36

the center of the special are a series

1:38

of secrets. Carmichael had long

1:40

been harboring secrets about his own

1:43

homosexuality, about his real name,

1:45

and perhaps most pointedly, about

1:48

his father, who had a second family

1:50

away from the Christian home Girod

1:52

came of age in All of that

1:55

was laid painfully bare in Roethaniel.

1:58

But it wasn't enough for Carmichael. Instead,

2:01

he's doubled down on this desire to clear

2:03

the air on the record, resulting

2:06

in his newest program, Drod

2:08

Carmichael Reality Show. In

2:11

what he's called an attempt to quote Truman

2:13

show himself. The eight episode

2:15

HBO program finds Carmichael working

2:17

through issues of love, sexuality,

2:20

friendship, family, and everything

2:22

in between. We see Gerrod

2:24

in his first extended romantic relationship.

2:27

We also see him pining after other men

2:30

in a series of one night stands. We

2:33

see him arrive an hour late to a

2:35

friend's wedding because he wanted

2:37

to stop for a hot dog. We

2:39

see him confront his father about his

2:41

complicated past. We see him confront

2:43

his mother about her homophobia.

2:46

We see him fall painfully short time

2:49

and time again. It's the rare

2:52

reality show in which something real

2:54

actually happens. It's unvarnished

2:57

and at times deeply uncomfortable

3:00

to watch, and yet I couldn't

3:02

look away. And so at

3:05

Act one, we start with the journey to

3:07

making this reality show, the

3:09

negative responses that have begun to surface

3:11

online, and how he views the

3:13

camera as a kind of light detector test,

3:16

a vessel for honesty. An

3:18

act two. Drod's origin story

3:21

from a young boy obsessed with storytelling

3:23

in Winston Salem, North Carolina, to

3:26

an entrepreneurial stand up comic in

3:28

Los Angeles, and then finally

3:30

an Act three, the past and present

3:33

collide, resulting in this new

3:35

piece of work that he hopes will

3:37

long last set himself at

3:40

his family, free from

3:42

shame. This is

3:44

Trod Carmichael. Drod

3:56

Carmichael. Hi, nice to meet you.

3:58

Nice to meet you.

3:59

How are you feeling?

4:00

This is already great? It had like

4:02

the Phantom Thread score playing. We've

4:05

talked Harold Budd, We've

4:08

talked Dave Rubek. I feel comfortable.

4:10

I have an iced green tea.

4:12

It's been a couple years since you dropped Rothaniel,

4:17

and for those who happens in it, it's this brilliant

4:19

confessional stand up special

4:22

where you came out and talk candidly about

4:25

your sexuality. And when

4:28

people would ask you to explain the special,

4:31

to essentially describe the premise, you

4:33

said, Uh, the synopsis

4:35

of roth Thaniel should really be man

4:38

who's afraid of heights jumps out of

4:40

an airplane on HBO.

4:41

Yeah, I was facing my biggest fear.

4:44

How would you describe the synopsis

4:47

of the Drawd Carmichael reality

4:50

show.

4:51

I found more planes, I

4:54

got, I got more plan I'm still afraid of heights.

4:57

You went to a hangar.

4:58

I went to a hangar, so

5:01

I I okay.

5:04

In preparing for Rot Daniel, I

5:06

started, I was using

5:09

stage to deal with personal problems,

5:11

to contend with problems coming

5:14

out obviously huge. I was closeted,

5:16

so I was like leading up to that special

5:18

was like coming out in like clubs

5:20

around the country, like leading up

5:22

to it, just like to the

5:24

shock of the audience,

5:27

like over and over, night after night, a tour

5:29

of coming out. There was yonder phone coming

5:31

out and people were respectful people. I

5:34

think only like one person like tweeted about

5:36

it or something, but for the most part, people wouldn't

5:39

say so.

5:40

Strangers in the audience knew

5:43

you were yay before your parents

5:45

did.

5:46

I came out to my parents

5:49

and it was a negative reaction and

5:51

then I spiraled for a long time and

5:53

dealing with that. I

5:56

was dealing with that through Rathaniel was like really

5:58

sad around Christmas time of

6:00

twenty one, and I

6:03

hadn't done stand up in maybe

6:05

a year and a half. I want to say it hadn't done

6:07

it consistently and maybe two years,

6:10

and I thought it was I

6:12

didn't think I was going to do it

6:14

anymore. And I went

6:17

to the comedy store. I was I was

6:19

staying at my

6:21

friend's house and I was sad,

6:24

and I decided to just go to the comedy store

6:27

and I just went up and

6:29

I just said, I was gay.

6:31

Did you know you were going to say that before you went

6:33

on stage?

6:34

I knew I

6:36

needed to use

6:39

it as a tool. I needed

6:41

to use it as a way to deal

6:44

with a personal problem. That's

6:46

where it began. And then a really

6:48

transformative set. BO

6:51

and I went to. Yes,

6:54

we went to Flappers. This

6:57

is like a week before Christmas in twenty one,

7:00

and were just in the car and he

7:04

just told me to say something memorable

7:07

because he came to a comedy st and I

7:09

was just all over the place and he

7:11

was like, just say something that

7:14

the audience won't forget. And

7:17

I talked about not

7:20

going home for Christmas. I said, I don't think I want

7:22

to go home for Christmas. And it's a big deal

7:24

for me. Christian boy from the

7:27

South, very close to my family. It was the first

7:29

time I ever skipped

7:32

Christmas ever

7:34

ever in my life. That's that's like

7:37

unheard of. And I

7:40

talked that out with the crowd, and

7:43

me and bow Knew that night were like, Oh, this is

7:45

going to happen really fast. This is gonna

7:47

happen really quickly. And so then

7:50

I worked on what became Rothaniel between Christmas

7:52

and Valentine's Day, and we

7:56

filmed it shortly after Valentine's

7:58

Day twenty two. All that to say,

8:00

I've been dealing with personal

8:02

problems on stage in that

8:05

way even since Rothaniel. I've

8:09

having feelings for a friend, questioning

8:12

how my own ethics as

8:15

a friend, still issues

8:17

with the relationship with my parents I

8:19

got into a relationship. Definitely

8:21

dealing with relationship

8:24

problems and things on stage

8:27

all the time, and I

8:29

was curious about, all right, what's

8:31

the follow through of that? So I got

8:33

this deal with HBO.

8:35

The follow through of Man Afraid of

8:38

Hides jumped out an airplane.

8:39

Yes, yeah, because I kept jumping out of these planes

8:41

like on stage, like my sets would be

8:44

like there would be material, but a lot of it would be

8:46

rooted around, like a I

8:48

got this text, I had this phone call, or I

8:50

have this problem. There was a lot of things

8:53

I was in a closet about. I think everybody's in a closet

8:55

about something, and there are different

8:57

issues. There are different things that you

8:59

may be afraid to face and

9:03

are the stage. Stand up was

9:05

an outlet for me, So, Okay,

9:08

I have these personal problems, I'm talking about

9:10

it on stage. That's not solving them.

9:12

And at the same time, I had this deal with HBO

9:16

and I'd written a sitcom about my life

9:18

contending with things, talking about my family

9:21

kind of going around. But I started living

9:23

more truthful than that, and

9:25

that led into my stand

9:28

up and I

9:30

figured, oh, instead of writing

9:33

a show fictionalizing

9:35

my parents, fictionalizing my friends, fictionalizing

9:38

my relationship, what.

9:39

You had done on the Carmichael Show, Yeah, a sitcom

9:42

for NBC. If I'm like twenty fifteen to twenty seven

9:44

ten.

9:44

Yes, I did the classic

9:47

sitcom.

9:48

Norman Lear inspired.

9:49

Yeah, yeah, three camera set

9:51

up audience. So instead

9:54

of writing the show again, the fictionalized

9:56

version of the show, I

9:58

figured that just

10:01

doing it for real would be far

10:03

more interesting, and I

10:06

had a feeling it would still

10:08

play out like a sitcom.

10:11

You think this reality show plays

10:14

out like a sitcom.

10:15

In a way, you start with the problem.

10:17

The main character has to contend with a

10:20

problem. You try and learn something

10:22

by the end.

10:23

I never maybe not on a network

10:25

sitcom, well.

10:26

In the networks to come, I fought against like

10:29

the unrealistic turn. You're supposed to take an unrealistic

10:31

emotional turn at the end of You're supposed

10:33

to learn something. You're supposed to learn something at the end of at

10:36

the end of a shall do that? Yeah,

10:38

and I was. I

10:40

was definitely more of the Seinfeldt no hugs,

10:43

but I still wanted You still

10:45

had to move somewhere. There had to be movement. For

10:48

me, the movement is the anxiety

10:50

of the conversation that I'm facing having

10:53

the conversation. Sometimes

10:56

there's growth from it. Sometimes it's

10:58

just a clash and it ends, you

11:01

know, silent, But I still

11:03

had it. I still had it, and it's

11:06

the journey to the conversation.

11:07

You mentioned that you had all these issues that you wanted to work

11:10

through. For those that haven't seen

11:12

it yet or maybe only seen one or two, what

11:15

are those issues? What are

11:17

the top of mind issues you wanted

11:19

to work out?

11:19

So I told a really close

11:21

friend of mine that I had feelings for him, and

11:24

we weren't able to talk about it.

11:26

Tyler the Creator.

11:27

Yeah, yeah, but that

11:30

was a difficult thing, you know, like because

11:32

it's awkward, Like it's an embarrassing

11:34

situation to be in. The feelings

11:37

were unrequited, unrequited love.

11:39

Yeah, yeah, and that's it was a really

11:41

difficult position to be in because it

11:44

wasn't just that it was unrequired. It was

11:46

that we couldn't get past

11:49

the awkwardness to have a conversation about

11:51

it. The reason I wanted to talk to you on

11:53

camera is

11:56

that I kind of

11:58

felt like a distance between

12:00

us. I have an idea of what it

12:04

is, but what I think do you think it's

12:06

because I told you I have feelings for you and you

12:09

didn't talk about it ever, that was like weird.

12:12

I don't know if it was just too awkward to talk about

12:14

or too I

12:16

don't know.

12:17

I don't know, Like it's just like I feel

12:19

like you left your hanging out there a little bit.

12:21

Like like when you said that, I think I replied

12:23

with like something super mad,

12:26

normal regular, like.

12:29

You laughed and called me stupid bitch.

12:33

I did, Yeah,

12:37

I did, I did,

12:41

And I think I just like brushed

12:43

it off.

12:44

I know, I know.

12:45

Yeah, getting

12:49

news like that and then avoiding

12:51

it is a way to avoid

12:55

change.

12:56

So you were avoiding it.

12:57

I never said that.

12:58

I wasn't.

12:59

That was a lot to download.

13:02

And now we're here.

13:05

And I still don't know how to respond.

13:07

Yeah yeah, yeah,

13:12

like it just kind of got dismissed. And that's

13:14

a really tough place for me. That's

13:16

how I feel with my family, Like my family

13:18

like I came out and then we weren't able to talk about

13:21

it. And so the conversations

13:24

with Tyler, similar to a conversation

13:26

with my dad, was getting past

13:28

the small talk into what's real sort

13:30

of thing that I really really want to say when

13:33

we're having a meal that I'm

13:35

afraid to say. I'm really really afraid to

13:37

say these things because it feels like I could ruin

13:39

the relationship beyond repair, and

13:41

so I just don't say it, but

13:44

I want to say it, and so then the relationship

13:46

feels like a lie. And I was living

13:48

in a few lies.

13:50

Does the camera embolden you to

13:52

ask questions that you would otherwise not ask

13:55

in private?

13:57

The camera encourages

13:59

me to be vulnerable.

14:03

I built up a

14:05

shell, like a

14:07

hard exterior to protect I

14:10

was closeted. There

14:12

are issues in my life that I was afraid

14:15

to face. I

14:17

think a lot of it was rooted in my idea

14:19

of masculinity. I

14:22

was never really vulnerable. I needed to be

14:24

right all the time, and

14:27

after coming out, it forced me into

14:29

a place of vulnerability that

14:33

felt good. A sex therapist recently

14:35

told me that I'm

14:37

only submissive through

14:40

my work. That

14:43

because we were talking about like topping and bottoming, and

14:45

I've never bought before, and I'm

14:48

sure there's a lot of like reasons,

14:51

there's a lot of psychological reasons why not.

14:53

But the sex therapist was

14:55

like, well, you're really mostly

14:59

submissive in your

15:01

work. Like on stage, I'm submissive

15:03

when me and my boyfriend get into arguments. He says

15:06

that I offer no concessions. I

15:09

want to be right and because he's smart and I want

15:11

to prove how smart I am when I'm arguing

15:13

with him. But on stage is where I

15:15

offer the concession. When I get

15:17

on stage, I'm able to say I was wrong

15:19

about this. I'm able to say, you

15:21

know, this is where he hurt my feelings.

15:24

This is where I feel afraid, and

15:26

that's my outlet.

15:28

Why can you do that so easily in public,

15:31

and why is it so hard for you to do in private.

15:34

I've been trying to figure that out.

15:37

The cameras in the stage

15:40

two things that give purpose to the

15:42

words and

15:45

audiences, Like cameras

15:47

can always see the truth when

15:49

you're on stage. If you're performing, if

15:52

you're nervous and you don't say

15:54

you're nervous, the audience still knows

15:57

your nervous. They can see it,

15:59

and so your existence is a

16:01

lie until you state the truth, like

16:04

and you're still performing nervous, And

16:06

even if they can't put their finger on exactly

16:08

what you're hiding, they

16:11

know you're hiding something like they can see

16:13

performance offered, like that's why good

16:15

acting is, Like people are offering truthful

16:18

performances. I was just with Emma Stone

16:20

in the movie and I watched her go to a really honest

16:22

place before scenes, yes,

16:24

and then I watched her show

16:26

that, like show a very vulnerable

16:29

piece of herself to the world, and it was so impressive,

16:32

like watching someone have

16:34

that level of skill but also access

16:36

to that level of vulnerability and the

16:39

courage to show that. Meanwhile,

16:41

I was like trying to be cool and so it could see

16:44

that you're trying to be cool, you know,

16:46

and it's so it's not. The

16:48

camera is a lie detector.

16:49

You seem more comfortable in this show than

16:52

you did in that film.

16:53

Oh one hundred percent. I wish that I

16:55

filmed it after the show. The show

16:58

completely changed my relationship to Ca. You could do a

17:00

better job now, oh one hundred percent. But

17:02

it's definitely. I was always on

17:05

the other side of the camera, trying to maintain control,

17:08

not being notting. I was

17:10

afraid to submit, and for many

17:12

reasons, industry reasons, because I

17:14

was always the writer, I was always the producer.

17:16

I was always the director, so I always had reason

17:18

to be on the other side of the camera, worried about

17:21

the whole thing.

17:22

You've said actors shouldn't be producers in their own

17:24

films.

17:25

They should never do that.

17:26

But you're a producer of this show.

17:29

I'm not in the editing room. I'm

17:31

not. I'm a producer by nature.

17:34

Like it was an idea that I had,

17:36

Yes, it's an idea I have, I think, especially

17:38

i've seen and went through the process

17:40

with actors who are because you get really precious.

17:43

The same reason I'm not in the editing room is the reason actors shouldn't

17:45

produce because you get really really precious

17:47

and you try and build this likable

17:50

character.

17:51

They get precious about things that don't actually contribute

17:53

to making a good piece of art.

17:54

When you take out the things that make it art that

17:57

are thorny and yeah, the things that make it

17:59

interesting. I think that's what's shocking about

18:01

the show, is like, people can't believe that

18:03

I'm presenting like, at times unlikable

18:06

character. So people like like

18:08

trying to process like that. It's a lot of like

18:10

moral judgment.

18:12

You saying people can't believe is

18:14

like the understatement of the century.

18:19

People on Twitter they've

18:21

lost their minds a little bit watching this show.

18:24

Yeah, I mean they're confused as to why

18:27

you would cast yourself as the

18:29

kind of villain of this story, which is I know

18:31

you describe yourself that way.

18:32

Well, I think it's human even

18:35

more than it's a villain. It's like it's human.

18:37

I think that's what is interesting about

18:40

us, And I think people are

18:42

used to being lied to in film or

18:44

in film until like

18:46

all the artists now across

18:49

all the forms of our are all kind

18:51

of running for president. And it's

18:54

funny because the only time you hear someone speaking

18:56

honestly, are the actual presidential

18:58

candidates. It's like the artists

19:00

are running for president and then like Trump

19:03

is speaking like an artist. It's

19:06

kind of backwards. Why is that money?

19:09

Fear of trending negatively because it can

19:12

hurt you know, it's not It doesn't always feel

19:14

good. This rule and culture

19:16

now that you are supposed to agree

19:19

with the person you're watching

19:21

politically, that's it's not I

19:24

think there are other ways to process. Are the art

19:26

that I love? I have complicated

19:29

feelings toward the person I'm

19:31

watching. I mean, I don't like watch the Sopranos,

19:33

like but Tony. Tony's killed people,

19:36

Like yeah, that's what like, Yeah, he's killed

19:38

people, and he loves his wife and

19:40

he loves his children, and he's

19:43

manipulative and he's lying in therapy

19:45

and that's what makes them an interesting

19:47

character.

19:48

People have complicated feelings about the

19:50

Sopranos.

19:51

Yeah, no question, yes.

19:53

But I think when they're watching your show, they're

19:56

going, this wasn't written

19:58

by David Chase, jams

20:01

Gandolfini is

20:03

not Tony Soprano. And so

20:06

when they're watching you in therapy and

20:08

you having all these complicated feelings and they're

20:11

being some deceit. There seems

20:13

to be a lot of questions around why

20:16

would he expose the

20:18

less than flattering parts of themselves

20:20

so publicly?

20:22

Because it's true.

20:23

And that, to you is the most important no matter

20:25

what.

20:26

Yeah, I'm trying to make art out of truth.

20:28

That's the material that I'm playing with,

20:30

like all of me.

20:31

But the other characters are not played by actors.

20:34

Yeah, but I love that.

20:36

That's actually what makes the show super

20:38

interesting to me because it's people you would never

20:40

see and they're not

20:43

hamming it up for the camera. They don't have

20:45

the desire. My boyfriend wants

20:47

nothing to do with it. It's only

20:49

through his love of me that he's on here.

20:52

My mom doesn't want anything to do with my dad

20:54

doesn't want anything to do with it.

20:56

Their love for you is why they're there. Yes,

20:59

How do you feel now that people are taking

21:02

these like very precious things in your

21:04

life that are your people and your relationships

21:07

and now it's like being run through the Twitter

21:10

conveyor belt.

21:11

Yeah, a lot of how

21:13

do you hold that? It is exciting?

21:19

It is exciting, And I'm not above saying that there are

21:21

things that have made me feel bad. Of course

21:23

what made me feel bad. Criticism

21:27

is sometimes hard to receive. Really

21:29

more, being misunderstood

21:32

makes me feel bad. Anytime

21:36

people have incorrect information and

21:38

run with it. That that makes me feel bad

21:41

because I am offering so much truth

21:43

that it's like, no, I mean, you can criticize

21:45

and have your feelings toward the troop. You have that

21:48

right, just as I have the right to show it.

21:50

But it doesn't feel good to

21:52

be lied on or lied about. That.

21:54

That doesn't feel good. And some

21:57

of the assessments I think are so

21:59

correct. You know, I've been joking

22:01

with my friends that I think like haters

22:04

are my biggest supporters.

22:08

Like just that the.

22:08

People that just like that,

22:11

you've read that, You've thought, okay, that's that's

22:13

onto something.

22:13

Well, like why is he doing this? Because

22:17

because I feel like I relate

22:20

so much to the average person on

22:22

TikTok on Twitter, on

22:24

Instagram who posts so much about

22:26

their life in an effort to be seen in

22:29

hopes of being understood

22:31

and like searching for community and

22:34

searching to show themselves. But

22:36

I'm like not showing. It's still

22:38

cur it's still a show, that's right, But I'm showing

22:41

things that most people hide. So

22:44

in a sense, even acknowledging that

22:47

makes me feel okay, because you do

22:49

see me. Like, my parents don't talk about

22:51

the show. My mom we talked

22:54

after episode one. They just don't

22:56

talk about it because I show so much

22:58

that they don't want to see that

23:01

it just goes unacknowledged. That feels

23:03

worse to me than somebody on Twitter saying he's

23:05

not a good person.

23:06

When your sitcomb came out on a

23:08

business hm, did

23:11

your parents tell people to

23:13

watch it? They told anybody

23:15

who came to the house, anybody at

23:17

I hop.

23:19

Any every everybody, you

23:21

know, the son got a show to see, Like you know, we

23:23

had billboards around town. It was so proud of it.

23:25

They were the street team for it.

23:27

They were the street team, so so proud

23:29

of it that came by the set just like

23:31

very very very very proud of it and this

23:33

show. Oh you can't get them

23:35

to acknowledge that, it's all.

23:38

They're like, Max, I'd have never never

23:40

heard of that.

23:41

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. In fact, I

23:43

was home for like a

23:45

like a couple of months ago before the show came out,

23:47

and I got my mom a new Apple TV

23:50

and she asked, like she had me set it up

23:53

and she asked for every password except

23:55

HBO, Like want

23:57

no parts of it, you know, because it's it's

23:59

a truth that there's a lot of true

24:02

things in there that are very that's the

24:04

the reason for the show is like

24:08

they they kind of show why I needed to make

24:10

it in the first place.

24:11

Did you ask her why

24:13

you won't download the app?

24:17

Yeah? I mean I asked, you

24:19

know, even more directly, like I asked,

24:22

are you going to tell your friends about the show? Like

24:24

are you gonna you know? And

24:26

they're like, no, no, they'll see it. They'll

24:28

see it if they you know, they'll come across it

24:30

if they see it, because it's it's

24:33

things that are uncomfortable. It's a very uncomfortable

24:35

show. I show parts of myself that are embarrassing.

24:38

And it's only embarrassing because it's things that my parents

24:41

don't approve of. You know. That's

24:43

hurtful that that that hurts me, And

24:46

so it does make me just go like,

24:48

Okay, well let's just put it on

24:50

television, Like let's put the things

24:53

that we can't talk about on TV.

24:56

I'm trying to be as public as I

24:58

live privately, right and

25:00

as as private as my parents have lived,

25:03

and that's why I kind of take the right to tell

25:05

the story. They both they both sign

25:07

off on it too, and not like just wanted against their

25:09

will. But it's

25:13

therapy. It's

25:15

a form of.

25:15

Therapy, except you're being paid for it.

25:18

Yeah. Yeah, they're being paid for

25:20

it indirectly. Yeah. Actually

25:22

I'm being nice, like, yeah, they'd be paid for direct

25:25

socks. Oh yeah. At one point I

25:27

went broke, my parents had more money

25:29

in savings than me. And did they give it to the

25:31

church? Oh yeah, weekly, Yeah, gets

25:34

a percentage of how our money.

25:36

I guess the nature of the show. We're talking about

25:38

it in both like a micro sence and then a macro

25:40

sence. I want to play a clip from

25:43

the opening episode between you and

25:45

your friend. We're gonna call them a bow Burnham

25:48

like figure.

25:49

Were we talking about anonymous?

25:50

Anonymous? Yeah, where you two talking about the

25:52

thesis of what you're doing here. Can

25:55

we take a look at that.

25:56

Let's do it to me.

25:57

These cameras, it's like there's talking seren

25:59

Gas in the room and I'm masked up

26:01

yecause I'm going to I'm not exposing myself

26:03

to this shit. None of this is dude, This

26:05

is not a neutral eye. This is not truth.

26:09

This is narrative that will be

26:11

edited by someone where the editing I'll

26:14

be choices. That's not truth, like, and I

26:16

have no access to that. So I'm like, fuck that,

26:18

you don't get any of me.

26:20

I'm trying to self Truman, show myself,

26:23

like trying to let cameras be what, like god.

26:26

Is it's exhibitionist?

26:29

Yeah, but what's wrong with that?

26:31

There's public and private, and then there's

26:33

masturbatorially public. Maybe

26:36

there's public, which is like unnecessarily

26:39

shooting a camera up your fucking asshole

26:41

and broadcast into the world. You have

26:43

a sort of self destructive thing, and that

26:45

can be channeled into stuff that's exciting or

26:47

alive. But like, I care about you beyond

26:50

this thing.

26:51

In that clip, your anonymous

26:53

friend equates

26:55

the cameras and their presence

26:58

to saren gas, like the

27:01

poison used in chemical warfare.

27:05

But you seem to view the

27:07

cameras a lot differently, like are

27:09

they a source of oxygen?

27:11

Oh, it's liberating. The cameras are

27:13

liberating because it's

27:15

going to capture the truth. Listen,

27:18

I was performing off

27:20

camera the gas in the room

27:23

was Thanksgiving with my family like

27:25

that, That's when I felt like I was suffocating.

27:28

What do you mean by that?

27:28

Well, because I was just living

27:30

in small talk. I was I

27:33

was avoiding anything uncomfortable

27:36

because I was afraid, and I lived

27:38

in that fear and I had no excuse,

27:40

I had no way out.

27:43

I felt trapped, and the cameras

27:46

gave me an excuse to say exactly

27:48

what I needed to say for

27:51

a long time. And

27:53

that's free. Cameras

27:55

are strange. I won't take that

27:57

away. It's a strange thing. I think

28:00

it may become more and more common

28:02

the more I see people facing

28:05

their camera talking about

28:07

their lives, Like more and more, I think there's

28:09

a generation who won't

28:11

know life without speaking

28:14

to a camera. I see it in my niece, like

28:16

she watched so many YouTube videos and learns

28:19

the language just like,

28:22

hey guys, you

28:24

know, and there

28:26

is a whole generation addicted to that.

28:28

I mean, allow me to be the first

28:30

person to say that, are

28:33

you addicted to it? Yeah?

28:38

Yeah, I'm sure. I'm sure it

28:40

is an addiction. The cameras make me feel

28:42

really good, So cameras make me feel good. I

28:44

don't know if that's an addiction as much

28:46

as it's a release and an outlet and a

28:49

place to go. Be honest, I'm

28:52

lucky to be old enough to think

28:54

of the Internet as a place that.

28:56

I went to, not a

28:58

place you were born into.

28:59

I wasn't born into the Internet. We had

29:01

AOL dial up on Windows

29:03

ninety five, and I

29:06

visited until my mom had to get on the

29:08

phone. Then

29:10

I had to leave the Internet and be in the world.

29:12

And so I still kind

29:15

of view it as that, but more

29:17

and more I'm definitely immersed in it and reading

29:20

things about myself and the

29:22

Google alerts and the tweets

29:24

and the tiktoks, and sometimes

29:26

I have to just like not do that. It's

29:29

not the healthiest thing in the world. It's entertaining,

29:31

it's thrilling, it's very fun. It's

29:34

like it was like, oh, man, a bunch of people are

29:36

saying a bunch of things all

29:39

the time.

29:40

But when those things are negative, Yeah,

29:43

and a lot of them have been in the last

29:45

few weeks. Yeah, how are you managing

29:47

that?

29:50

I think a lot of what being

29:53

called not a good person right

29:55

doesn't feel bad to me.

29:58

Even in the Carmichael Show, I always

30:00

took the position kind of like the assholes

30:02

position right in my stand up, like

30:04

the unlikable position.

30:07

So I don't mind that

30:09

is as much. And I

30:11

do interpret it as people

30:14

trying to understand why

30:19

the reasons behind it. So a lot of like

30:21

to me, like I was like looking through Twitter

30:24

earlier, to me, this is like a good

30:26

Twitter day. It's just a lot of like he shouldn't

30:28

be doing this, because I've also seen what

30:30

the Internet loves of,

30:33

Like Okay, I'm like, well, who do you like? And

30:35

it's usually people who don't reveal

30:38

the truth they

30:41

really love that they like the they

30:44

want the star that they could project a

30:46

truth onto, or who appeases

30:49

them like it aligns with them

30:51

politically, And I didn't

30:53

sign up for that, and he's not a good

30:55

person. I'm like, well, you know, I do

30:57

think upon self reflection. I

31:00

think anyone could find things that

31:02

the Internet would call not good,

31:05

and I think that's what makes it a compelling show.

31:08

So I can kind of rest easy and in

31:11

those types of criticisms, like even the

31:13

like the positive reviews for the show, like there's

31:15

like reviewers who were just like, you

31:17

know, it was one I believe it was a Hollywood

31:19

report or something just like the Gerrod Carmichael

31:22

reality show tests its

31:25

stars likability. I'm like, this

31:27

is good. This is good,

31:29

Like I didn't like, I

31:31

didn't know you needed to like all

31:34

the artists, right. No one's saying

31:37

that the show isn't well crafted.

31:40

That would feel bad. No one's saying

31:42

like this this lacks like people

31:45

are saying that it's that they haven't

31:47

seen anything like it before. A

31:49

funny criticism that I've heard is like, we

31:52

didn't ask for this, And I'm like, do

31:54

you know the things you ask for? The

31:58

things you ask for, you don't even watch like

32:01

you wouldn't respect, You wouldn't respect

32:03

the things you asked for. I don't think that's

32:05

my role as an artist or any artist's

32:08

role. So I'm I'm definitely

32:11

I'm fighting for artists live.

32:14

My concern is for uh, Draw, the

32:17

person.

32:18

That's the show. The show is trying

32:20

to figure out Gerard the person like like

32:22

like I, the Internet

32:24

hasn't caught out anything that the show doesn't.

32:27

But your comfort with the camera. It

32:29

seems to me that that dates

32:32

back to your childhood

32:34

in Winston Salem, North Carolina, Because

32:37

even as a kid, your

32:40

your older brother Joe said, if

32:43

I was playing ball, Drod would

32:45

be on the side with his camera taping

32:47

us interviewing the players. What

32:49

about the camera appealed

32:52

to you as a child in Morningside?

32:55

That was That was the most personal, beautiful

32:58

question I've ever got. I don't even know

33:00

where you would have heard my brother say that. I don't know

33:03

where he ever said that. You got my

33:05

neighborhood right, That's uh,

33:08

that was very beauty. I've

33:11

been trying to understand that the camera

33:13

gave things purpose. It gave

33:15

me purpose. I felt like I was supposed

33:18

to be capturing these moments, so

33:20

they weren't in vain. I

33:22

always tried to make something of

33:25

the moment. I always thought

33:27

that there was magic in little

33:29

moments that often got overlooked.

33:32

One of my favorite things when I was a

33:34

kid was like breaking out the

33:36

camcorder, just recording

33:38

us just doing anything, talking, singing,

33:41

wrestling, and then watching

33:44

it back immediately, and you always

33:46

saw something that you're

33:48

like, oh, this is the funniest thing in the world.

33:50

Like I don't even remember saying that. I don't remember

33:52

you saying that, but now we're watching it back,

33:54

and this is gold.

33:57

The camera is magical.

34:00

It's a miracle to me. It's a technology

34:02

I don't even understand capturing

34:04

your life and playing it back, So why I can't.

34:07

It's part of the reason I'm not on social media, because I

34:09

am precious about that. I'm

34:11

like I would it's like, wait, capturing

34:15

my voice, my words, like

34:17

my organized thoughts. It's

34:20

precious.

34:21

You would hear yourself every

34:24

Sunday morning leading the choir

34:26

in church. But the thing I want to say

34:28

with besides you having a good voice, which you're

34:30

welcome to demonstrate for us at any time, is

34:33

that on Wednesday nights you

34:36

would go to these

34:38

prayer meetings. It's

34:40

like a psychic reading. It's

34:44

just a podcast.

34:46

Wow, this is the most like, organized,

34:48

thoughtful. Please continue.

34:50

Well, it was there at these meetings

34:53

you were around all these adults, right, Yes,

34:56

were those groups your

34:58

first real kind

35:01

of audience as a comic.

35:03

It's funny. I never thought of it as it relates

35:05

to stand up, But in many ways,

35:07

yes, I've all often found myself

35:11

in a room fighting

35:13

for what I believed against

35:17

everyone, like

35:19

and I making an argument, making

35:21

an argument. I always traced, like

35:24

my stand up origins to eighth grade,

35:26

the first week of eighth grade, there was a class

35:28

discussion. We were going to have a debate,

35:30

and my teacher, mister Nairi, separated

35:33

us into two teams, like he

35:35

had us read this article about someone who

35:38

had to who stole something for

35:41

a murky reason, and he

35:44

said who agrees with this person

35:48

and who disagrees? And

35:50

when he asks who disagrees, everybody in the

35:52

class raised their hand but me, and

35:54

then they said who agrees? And then I raised

35:56

my hand. And then for thirty minutes I

35:59

argued against the class and it felt and I

36:01

believed it, and you have to believe it. That's very, very

36:04

important, because otherwise it's just trolling.

36:06

Did you believe it for the sake

36:08

of arguing or did you believe

36:11

it in your heart?

36:13

I believed it in my heart. It was a I

36:16

have to believe it, otherwise the

36:19

argument is flimsy. Whatever

36:21

crafted my perspective, like sometimes

36:23

it can stand out in

36:25

a room in church, being in North

36:28

Carolina Southern Black

36:30

Baptist church. At some point

36:32

my view of God changed,

36:36

and it wasn't

36:39

the God that I was taught. I believed

36:42

in an internal power that

36:44

we all have access to, and

36:46

so I would argue with people who spent

36:49

time on their knees praying, asking

36:52

God for favor. And I believe

36:55

that the power was always ours,

36:58

that prayer wasn't asking,

37:01

prayer was accepting, and

37:03

you accepted miracles, you didn't

37:05

ask for them, and that caused

37:08

a lot of tension in church. I

37:10

would constantly. I would go and they

37:12

had a children's class downstairs, but I would

37:14

be I was like a kid, and I'd be upstairs with

37:17

the adults arguing, just

37:20

arguing with the whole All the people

37:22

at Bible Study just like, no, no,

37:24

I don't think that's what Jesus meant.

37:26

They're like, oh boy, here comes the precocious

37:28

child.

37:29

Yeah, yeah, once again. But they

37:32

were entertained by it was funny because you

37:34

entertain them well because I like

37:37

to believe that they also wanted to

37:39

agree with me. And I felt

37:41

this way on stage, and so that's why

37:43

I guess it does. Try to stand up, like

37:45

what's fun? It's fun finding that pocket

37:48

of something I really believe in and

37:51

saying it and the laughter, the

37:53

laughter comes from at

37:56

least understanding my perspective,

37:59

Like there's a bridge there, like a

38:01

bridge has been formed, and the laughter is

38:03

like, okay, all right.

38:07

It's not we agree with you, but we hear you.

38:09

We hear you, we hear your yes,

38:11

which is all I'm asking for in this show

38:13

of yours. Yes, we'll get back to the man.

38:16

That was really good. It was very

38:18

thoughtful. Thank you for that. That was great. That

38:20

made me feel good.

38:21

We're not done, no, I know, but I'm just saying

38:23

that even if we were, that

38:25

was that's that was great.

38:29

After the break More from

38:32

Drawn Carmichael. Those

38:51

are some of your early experiences performing

38:54

and trying to persuade. But

38:57

it's funny because every time you do an interview,

39:00

like going on the Rick Ruben podcast

39:02

and the Mark Marrin podcast, it's almost like a parody.

39:04

At this point, people go, who are your

39:07

who your guys? Who are your influence?

39:09

Yes? Yeah, And there's.

39:10

Three that you tend

39:13

to highlight. First one

39:15

is Sumner Redstone,

39:18

who created Viacom and was like

39:21

once the chairman of CBS. Is

39:23

a man born in nineteen twenty three,

39:26

was a billionaire. The second

39:28

one was p Ditty. I'm

39:31

just gonna let that go. I

39:33

don't want to talk about it. The last one is someone

39:36

who we both loved, which is Norman there, I'm

39:40

wondering, like, these are titans of

39:42

industry. Yeah, when you're

39:44

watching Redstone's sixty

39:46

minute interview or the behind the music

39:48

doc for p Ditty, what about

39:51

them appeal to

39:53

you?

39:53

Like did their.

39:54

Grand visions of themselves

39:57

and form your own?

39:59

Yeah, well it was exactly that they manifested

40:01

a vision. And I thought that was really cool.

40:03

It's funny because that list, like if

40:05

I were to if I were

40:08

to update that list in this moment,

40:10

let's update it. My all time is

40:13

jay Z huge, huge,

40:16

huge influential to me. My

40:18

brother loved jay Z. I have a brother

40:20

who's eight years

40:23

old than me, eight and a half years older than me, and

40:27

he was in once say, an early

40:29

adopter of jay Z's music, really

40:32

loved like he loved Biggie, but like jay

40:34

Z. When jay Z was signed to priority

40:37

records, like in like ninety five ninety

40:39

six, when Reasonable Doubt came out, like I learned

40:42

all the lyrics by proxy, and

40:45

it was about the lyrics. It was about the words. It

40:48

was about the truth of his words. And

40:51

jay Z's just very smart, very

40:53

witty and truthful and

40:56

emotionally aware, which

40:58

is rare in his field. And I kind of apply

41:00

that to stand up like comedians aren't.

41:03

It's like rap, a very masculine

41:06

field where being emotionally

41:08

aware, beingulnerable in that way it can

41:10

be seen is weak. So comedians

41:12

try and offer like you still

41:14

need vulnerability for the joke, like in

41:16

that dynamic. But like how it plays

41:19

out in comedy, you'll hear a lot of

41:21

like straight male comics

41:23

do a lot of gay jokes because

41:25

being gay is vulnerable in society.

41:28

So it's instead of accessing

41:30

their own vulnerability. I did it when I was closeted.

41:32

I was like, oh, well, hey, well

41:35

they guess what kind of sex they

41:37

have. You know, like instead of offering anything about

41:39

yourself, because you still need vulnerability, you need to let

41:42

the air out in some way. And so

41:45

vulnerability and

41:48

rat was also rare, and jay Z was

41:50

a vulnerable rapper and so he's

41:52

up there. But yeah, that I would

41:55

update that Rick. I think about Rick Rubin a lot.

41:57

He's a friend, but I

41:59

just think about how open

42:02

he is creatively and

42:04

non judgmental he is. And

42:08

I really admire that.

42:10

All of these people have a clear

42:12

vision for themselves and how they see

42:15

their future playing out. Yes, so

42:18

inspired by them. I

42:20

want to go to the moment where your

42:22

sister gets you a one way CHEAPO

42:25

ticket cheap O air to Los

42:27

Angeles. You land

42:29

August eighth, two thousand and eight

42:32

at the Friday Yes, by Sunday

42:34

night, at.

42:34

The beginning of the Beijing Olympics.

42:37

I didn't have that in my dues, I believe you. Yeah,

42:40

by Sunday night, You're on stage

42:43

at the Comedy Store performing

42:45

at their open mic. Do you remember that

42:48

set?

42:49

Yeah? Yeah, I remember it because I

42:52

spoke really, really fast,

42:54

and

42:56

I was very nervous. It was daylight

42:59

in the Comedy Store. I think they still

43:01

have this in the original

43:03

room. It's a tough room in the summertime.

43:07

There's this giant window the sun is shining

43:10

through. There's no audience members at this open

43:12

mic, and I'm up first, so

43:14

I'm up first to know

43:17

one comics in the very back

43:19

of the room, sun is shining.

43:21

I'm speaking really fast. I

43:23

get off stage. It's a blur. I

43:26

think I said the N word seventeen times

43:28

somehow, just as a crutch.

43:31

Yeah.

43:31

No, that was rough, but loving

43:34

it. And then I really I

43:36

found a groove pretty

43:38

quickly. I was actually thinking about this a lot lately

43:40

because my boyfriend's a writer

43:43

and he makes me appreciate

43:45

the written word, and I've been reflecting

43:48

on how important that's been to me in my

43:50

career. And maybe

43:53

second or third open mic was

43:56

at the Improv, and

43:59

I remember that's when it clicked. It

44:01

clicked pretty quickly for me, like I developed

44:03

this side. I actually was sitting down. I used to sit

44:05

down when I started, in part because

44:08

I would always write my set. I would

44:10

get really inspired and

44:12

just write the set out all in one

44:15

go, either before get into the mic. Sometimes

44:17

i'd have to leave the room and

44:20

I would just write out a set and I would

44:22

go up and I would just be essentially

44:25

reading a new set. But the writing

44:27

was really really important to me in the structure,

44:29

and I didn't know how to write, so I was

44:31

like using the

44:35

notebook in half and keep it in my back

44:37

pocket. But I would write it the way I learned how to take

44:39

notes in history class in high school, just

44:41

like a premise on the left side

44:43

and then like punchlines and bullet points on the

44:46

right. Yeah, And so I

44:48

would do that every

44:50

set and it really clicked. I kind of found

44:53

a style.

44:54

Pretty quickly there was something there.

44:57

Yeah.

44:57

Yeah, it's funny because like you're

45:00

performing in Los Angeles, you

45:02

don't really know anyone. You're

45:05

in like a one bedroom apartment with four people

45:07

off gower.

45:08

Yeah wow, yeah.

45:11

What are the dreams that you're writing down in

45:13

your notebook?

45:14

Well, pretty early on I knew

45:17

I still have this notebook somewhere. I wrote

45:20

I will have a sitcom on NBC

45:23

and a

45:25

special on HBO. I might have set

45:27

three specials on HBO. I

45:30

can't remember if my first time writing it was

45:32

how ambitious it was. But I

45:34

wanted NBC because they

45:38

made shows

45:41

that I respected, and shows

45:43

that changed comedy and influenced

45:47

comedy, and I just

45:49

liked the network it was. It felt prestigious to

45:51

me, same reason for HBO. And HBO is

45:54

like the last of the prestige

45:57

television. And by prestige,

46:00

I mean I don't even mean it in a snobbish way. It's just like

46:02

a thoughtful creative process.

46:04

Did you think it would happen as quickly as it

46:06

did?

46:09

I mean the moment it feels like it's not happening quick enough.

46:11

You're like, man, am I ever going to make it? But

46:13

I do like reflecting. I do

46:15

know that my career moved

46:18

pretty fast. It moved

46:20

pretty fast. It was only like a like

46:24

a few years after that that

46:26

it started happening. In fact, my

46:28

show got picked up on NBC

46:32

the week I taped my first HBO

46:34

special.

46:35

Can we watch a clip from that for a special

46:37

of yours?

46:38

Wow? I haven't seen it in a long time.

46:40

Yeah, this is from Love at the Store

46:42

Buying Drawn Carmichael directed

46:44

my Spike Ley.

46:46

I could be wrong, but I'd

46:48

imagine the worst time

46:51

to forget your car keys would

46:54

be as you're trying to abandon

46:56

your family. Like

47:01

think about it, Like you walked back in and the kids have been so

47:03

excited and like Daddy's back. You're like, no, no, no.

47:14

Just forgot mccau keys. I

47:17

enjoy that act out.

47:18

More than the jokes worth young

47:22

kid, What

47:26

did you make of that? Between Love

47:28

at the Store and eight, there was

47:31

some growth as a comic, but

47:35

the most growth was has

47:37

been between eight and Rothaniel. But

47:40

Love at the Store. I

47:42

can see what Love at the Store

47:45

has inspired in a lot

47:47

of comedians, Like each each

47:49

special. I'm trying not to sound like a

47:51

like a like completely arrogant

47:54

asshole, but but I can

47:57

see my influence and I can see

48:00

where it is him well in

48:02

that like I think that was like the

48:05

best of the like contrarian

48:08

view. It's a style and

48:11

it's it's a lot of just like jokes, a lot of

48:13

grenades just being thrown

48:15

and challenging all the you

48:18

know, the sacred beliefs

48:20

of culture.

48:21

A lot of straight men have adopted this personality

48:24

as well.

48:24

Well, yeah, because if

48:27

I continued on that path, I would have nowhere

48:29

to go. I would be stuck. And

48:33

before we started dating, my boyfriend said what he thinks is important

48:36

now are long form interior stories, and

48:40

that's what I've switched

48:43

gears into. At that time, it's

48:45

just it was a lot of jokes, and

48:47

this is coming out of time, like Twitter

48:49

is just getting started, social

48:51

media becoming the outlet, and the path

48:54

for comics is still sort

48:56

of new. I mean, Dane Cook, it had a million MySpace

48:58

followers before I moved to LA, But for the

49:00

most part, it wasn't what comedy

49:02

has become now, like more algorithmic

49:04

and like trying to you know, say

49:07

the spicy thing that gets you a lot of attention. I

49:10

got a lot of flak. I got a lot of hate for like my

49:12

contrarian views there.

49:14

That special opens with

49:16

a Trayvon Martin joke.

49:18

Yeah, yeah, just challenging, challenging

49:20

culture, like how much do you believe

49:23

the things that you're saying? How much do you really care? How

49:25

much do you really care? Talent trumping

49:28

morals Michael Jackson,

49:31

Like, Michael

49:34

Jackson is guilty, but if

49:36

he if he did that to me, I would have

49:38

bragged about it at school the next day. These

49:40

are things that, like I've heard people

49:43

say later, like recently

49:45

lately, lately. Yeah.

49:47

But the kid in that special, the

49:49

one that you're like, ah, that's a young

49:51

man.

49:52

Yeah, what do you see?

49:55

I see someone excited about his

49:58

jokes his notebook. That that's the

50:00

conceit of the special. And I think it didn't

50:03

quite live up to its idea of Me and Spike

50:05

got into battles over that special,

50:09

but the idea was is

50:11

just enough. I just got past at the comedy store

50:13

like this somebody's recording. I'm recording in

50:15

the original know whatever recorded there before.

50:18

I'm doing it because I'm this is the place

50:20

where I perform all the time. And I wanted

50:22

the special to be like that, like a night

50:25

at the comedy store because that's

50:27

where I was in my career, and I was a kid

50:30

with a folded notebook and

50:32

some jokes and I thought I was

50:34

like really good at like just telling jokes

50:37

and it got me enough attention

50:39

to get a special. And you know, I can see the

50:41

mistakes, but with

50:43

some time I'm able to kind of reflect

50:45

and go like, oh, that's fun. That

50:47

was That was exciting. That was an exciting

50:50

period in this special.

50:52

But then especially an eight, which

50:55

bo Burnham directed. Yeah, the

50:57

jokes feel as if they

50:59

are delivered from like thirty

51:02

thousand feet above

51:04

ground, like that there's there does seem

51:06

to be some distance, some removed.

51:09

Yeah, between the jokes

51:11

and drawn the person.

51:13

Yeah. Eight was a thing where

51:16

the craft of the

51:18

special was better

51:20

than the material, the directing of it, the

51:23

directing, the decisions

51:26

like just I mean it really just birthed

51:30

like no intro specials

51:32

and like that same type of lighting

51:34

and like kind of camera movements. So yeah,

51:37

yeah, yeah, the close up, which only

51:39

makes it like it has to make sense for the material. But

51:41

anyway, I wanted to give

51:43

a speech and I felt like

51:45

I was giving a speech and like kind of adapting

51:48

the jokes to that, but I was also aware

51:51

of the importance of emotional

51:53

connection to the words, and

51:56

I wasn't saying

51:59

I was saying jokes that I liked, but

52:01

I wasn't revealing

52:03

anything, and I wasn't emotionally

52:07

attached to the perform Mormans.

52:09

So in between we had two tapings.

52:12

In between tapings, I got drunk

52:14

trying to connect

52:16

us. I don't I don't really drink like ever,

52:19

And at that point, I don't think I

52:21

ever. I'd never been drunk before.

52:23

You thought being drunk would help I.

52:25

Thought it helped me be emotion Yeah. I thought

52:27

it would help me be emotional and like and

52:29

and feel and feel my way through

52:32

the set. I was trying to reveal

52:34

something. I was trying to pour

52:36

my heart out and give the audience something deeper

52:39

than just the jokes. But I didn't know how to do

52:42

that. Like that took some time. I had to go

52:44

and do a lot of work.

52:47

You were trying to access a

52:49

more emotional, vulnerable

52:52

part of yourself, Yeah, but

52:54

the material itself.

52:56

Yeah, and that that's a that's an impossible

52:59

situation to be in. I didn't know how to do

53:01

it, and I was afraid.

53:02

Did you feel stuck?

53:05

Yeah, I didn't. I wasn't gonna do stand up anymore again

53:07

before Rothaniel, before finding

53:10

what I needed to say, I

53:12

wasn't gonna do it anymore because I was like, Oh, I'm

53:14

just gonna like write more jokes about the president.

53:20

I don't really care. I don't really care. Like,

53:22

yeah, I'm gonna do like topical humor for the

53:24

town that I'm in.

53:25

What did you find.

53:28

Myself? But doing

53:30

deep work like I also,

53:33

leading up to Rothangel, I was writing more than I'd ever

53:35

written. I was reading a

53:37

lot. I started reading. I started

53:39

caring about structure. I

53:41

started caring about Yes,

53:44

this taught me a lot about storyteller.

53:47

A swim in the pond in the rain George Honda's book

53:49

It Is a is The

53:51

book is a class, but it's a master

53:53

class in storyteller and it's very very much.

53:55

What did that book do for you in terms

53:57

of crafting Rothaniel?

53:58

It helped me hold structure in my

54:01

in my head like I didn't

54:03

have a respect for

54:06

structure in in

54:09

the way that I do now. You

54:11

know, Rothaniel is is. It's

54:13

stories. It's just it's a compilation of stories

54:15

and everything is very deliberate, even

54:18

the letting go, and I'm

54:21

holding on the information and releasing information

54:23

and in a way that I hadn't done

54:26

before. And I'm still learning it. I'm

54:29

still trying to grow in it. But reading,

54:32

like reading things, holding

54:34

stories in my mind

54:37

helped me a lot.

54:38

In some ways. You can track your

54:40

evolution if we were

54:42

to narrow our focus for a second by

54:45

the clip we just heard

54:47

from your first special, which is about

54:49

a father leaving who then has to come back to get his keys.

54:52

Yeah, and then we can go to eight.

54:55

Yeah, at the end of the special, the joke

54:58

is the only thing weirder than

55:00

finding out that your father has a second family

55:03

is finding out you guys are the second family.

55:05

Yeah.

55:06

Then you end eight by

55:09

going what else should

55:11

we talk about?

55:12

The ending of eight saying that

55:15

and what else should we talk about? Is me? It's

55:18

me trying. I'm trying, but

55:21

your effort. Yeah, yeah, I'm

55:23

trying. I'm too young and too afraid.

55:25

But then you answer your own question

55:28

in home videos and sermon

55:30

on the Mount and Daniel in

55:33

this new show, what else should we talk about?

55:36

That to me is just unbelievable

55:39

that you can track it just by that one bit, which

55:41

is based on es central truth that

55:44

you explore in this show, especially in

55:46

episode four where

55:48

you and your dad are having this conversation

55:51

about this infidelity

55:55

that you're interrogating that reality

55:58

something he wanted to long sweep

56:01

under the rug.

56:01

Yeah,

56:11

would you say you loved her?

56:12

Or was it just like sexual or was

56:14

it cause

56:16

it was a long time, that's what

56:19

like forty years of a relationship?

56:24

Was it hard every time? Did

56:26

you feel like a bad person?

56:30

Did you feel like you were two different people?

56:32

Why you're digging into that deep son?

56:39

Why you doing this?

56:41

What's what's like? Uh?

56:42

Well, I mean that's that was then?

56:45

Just now it's not then.

56:47

Stop saying that it's also now it's

56:50

I.

56:50

Thought this truly gonna be about you and I in Bondon.

56:53

That stop talking about my past

56:57

and move on forward.

57:01

Okay, I would like to meet my brothers in the future

57:04

I'm talking about for it.

57:05

I'd like to meet them.

57:08

You got hostilitative against me. I

57:13

got feelings too, the

57:16

way that you don't want to be heard. I don't want to be heard.

57:20

Is this going to be on your special.

57:24

Maybe?

57:24

Probably?

57:25

Yeah, I don't know.

57:26

This times to be discussed on on cameras.

57:30

But it's already public. It's public. It's

57:32

public. You made it public. You had now to

57:35

make it public.

57:35

You had children outside of your marriage.

57:38

It's the most public thing you can do like

57:40

that that I want to make clear. I'm not making

57:42

it public. You made it public.

57:44

No, and you made a public girl.

57:47

But don't now that's childish, that's tiptat.

57:50

You made it public.

57:52

I knew this was coming.

57:54

I don't even want to get into an argument about it. I'm saying

57:58

it was very defensive over over,

58:01

and I know.

58:01

You're not even considering if it bothers

58:03

me or hurt me or whatever you're hearing on what

58:06

you want to hear.

58:07

How do you think it made me feel to at a high

58:09

school with my brother and other people

58:11

knew he was related to me and I

58:14

didn't know.

58:15

How do you think

58:17

that bothered me?

58:18

Then you could have came to me.

58:20

Oh okay, I'm sorry. I didn't realize I was supposed

58:23

to come to you and say dag yeah,

58:27

yeah, because you wouldn't because you would never, So

58:29

don't criticize how I come. If you weren't gonna

58:31

say anything, you weren't gonna do shit. I

58:33

actually am doing something. Your your

58:36

option is no option, So don't criticize

58:38

the way I do it.

58:39

If the cameras help me, then they fucking

58:41

help. But your way is

58:43

nothing. Your way is silence,

58:45

your way is death. I'm not doing

58:47

that. I'm being a man. I'm stepping up.

58:49

I'm actually saying the things. These are

58:51

your children and your grandchildren. These aren't

58:53

my kids. I didn't fuck nobody. I ain't

58:56

have no kids outside of my marriage. I didn't

58:58

do that. You did that, and you're ashamed of

59:00

it. I get it, and it's hard, it's really really

59:02

hard. I had things I'm ashamed of too, But don't come at

59:04

me with that shit. And yes, I bring in cameras,

59:06

and yes that's my way, and yes I'm afraid to

59:08

have these conversations without them. Yes, because

59:11

I don't think you want to have these conversations. I know you

59:13

don't. You have the iron fist and all these things,

59:15

and so however I do it. I'm doing it, but

59:17

you weren't going to do it.

59:20

In those exchanges with your dad, What

59:23

did you want out

59:25

of that?

59:27

I think I'm always trying to understand

59:30

myself. I

59:32

see a lot of myself and my dad and

59:35

my behavior.

59:36

You can see it on screen.

59:38

Yeah, yeah, in mannerisms

59:41

and cadence. I

59:44

am my father in many ways,

59:47

and I'm both proud of that and it scares

59:50

me. And I want him

59:52

to answer things that I'm trying

59:54

to answer. And so I'm asking

59:56

these questions about like

59:58

duality, like you know, like did

1:00:01

you were you having more fun with the other

1:00:03

family? What were you telling yourself? I want to

1:00:05

know what was going

1:00:07

on inside of his mind in

1:00:09

these moments. And it's a

1:00:12

scary place to go because you may

1:00:14

say, I may get an answer I don't like,

1:00:16

but I need an answer. And

1:00:18

I do know that saying

1:00:21

things out loud

1:00:24

eradicates shame. And my

1:00:26

father's living with a lot of shame, and I've

1:00:29

lived with a lot of shame. My goal is

1:00:31

to free my father of shame. I'm

1:00:34

trying to drive him into the worst

1:00:36

case scenario. It's a baptism

1:00:38

by fire. Like he's

1:00:41

crippled by shame. It's affecting his

1:00:43

life, his health, his posture. He's

1:00:46

so afraid to leave the house because

1:00:48

of what people may know about him and what And

1:00:51

so I'm like, well, hey, it's on HBO

1:00:53

now and I want him to say really

1:00:55

scary things out loud because

1:00:58

I want him to.

1:00:59

Be free, because you know from

1:01:01

experience. I know from experience that rought Daniel

1:01:03

freed you up.

1:01:06

I know that from I live that

1:01:09

That's something I know for sure. Oprah says that, and

1:01:11

I've been borrowing that a lot in life. Like the

1:01:13

things I know for sure, I know that

1:01:16

saying uncomfortable truths out

1:01:19

loud sets you free.

1:01:21

Bo and some other friends of yours have said

1:01:24

that you're creating chaos and destruction

1:01:27

in your life by making this show right,

1:01:31

and you've said, no, I'm trying to attempt

1:01:34

to fix things, to heal things.

1:01:37

Do you believe in your heart the

1:01:39

most effective way to

1:01:42

heal things, to fix things is

1:01:45

to address these private matters publicly.

1:01:50

I don't think it's the best way, and

1:01:53

that's never been my argument. It's

1:01:56

the only answer I had.

1:01:59

It's not the best way, but

1:02:02

it's again, I'm submissive

1:02:04

and vulnerable in art, and

1:02:07

it allows me to go someplace,

1:02:09

he said, I'm afraid to go in life,

1:02:11

just day to day life, and

1:02:15

I'm using art to try and solve my

1:02:18

life's problems. It's

1:02:20

unorthodox, strange, unethical,

1:02:23

maybe in some way. Yeah,

1:02:26

maybe, but I don't really, I don't. You

1:02:29

don't care, no, because the problem still

1:02:31

exists, regardless of the ethics

1:02:33

or people's judgment of the ethics or the method.

1:02:36

Like, the problem still exists, and I'd

1:02:38

like to solve the problem. My father

1:02:41

said in the episode, he

1:02:43

said, I knew it, like I knew

1:02:45

it. I knew it, he said. He says that around the fire, he

1:02:47

says, I knew you wanted to talk about this.

1:02:49

I knew it. If

1:02:52

he knew I was a phone

1:02:54

call away, before cameras are up,

1:02:56

he could have said, hey, son, hey,

1:02:59

you want to talk about these things? Here?

1:03:02

I'm open hit me. What

1:03:04

do you what do you want to know? I could have said it.

1:03:06

I could have called him and like hey, But I

1:03:08

was afraid to do that because

1:03:12

I mean a few reasons. It feels easier

1:03:15

to lie I to

1:03:18

be honest with you. I think the conversation. I

1:03:21

know the conversation will go the

1:03:23

same way even without

1:03:25

the cameras, like I've had. I've since

1:03:28

then tried to have difficult conversations

1:03:30

with my dad.

1:03:31

But if that's the case, why do it with the cameras?

1:03:33

Because it's true and that's interesting.

1:03:36

That is interesting. If

1:03:39

it's if if we

1:03:41

can't talk about it, but I'm gonna make this attempt,

1:03:44

and if the result of the attempt

1:03:47

is the same, then

1:03:50

here I'll show you me doing

1:03:52

it, because that actually gives per like,

1:03:54

Okay, well I

1:03:57

can show myself I tried. I

1:04:00

can show you I tried. That

1:04:02

that gives some purpose a meaning to it. Then,

1:04:04

like if it's a you know, if

1:04:07

evil con Evel's gonna jump over the you

1:04:09

might as well have the camera on it because if he misses.

1:04:13

You know, if

1:04:15

you know in your heart you're not going to get a

1:04:18

satisfying answer, then

1:04:20

you at least want to know that

1:04:24

you got a program on of it. Yeah,

1:04:26

and that you made art of it.

1:04:27

Yeah, I made something of it.

1:04:29

Is that enough for you?

1:04:32

I don't know. I don't know. I don't

1:04:34

know if that's enough. I don't know if I

1:04:37

Since the show ended,

1:04:39

since I stopped filming,

1:04:43

I feel like I have fewer

1:04:45

questions. I

1:04:47

think this has definitely been a

1:04:50

period of like a lot of questioning.

1:04:52

Rthaniel is me asking

1:04:55

for my mother's love and

1:04:57

respect. The show is

1:04:59

me questioning who I

1:05:01

am and why

1:05:04

I am the way that I am.

1:05:07

I had this quote in the New York Times magazine

1:05:10

where you said, with family,

1:05:13

it's hard moving past the feeling that I'm

1:05:15

owed something.

1:05:16

Mm hmm.

1:05:18

What do you think You're owed?

1:05:20

Unconditional love, respect,

1:05:23

the love that I give I

1:05:26

want in.

1:05:26

Return and

1:05:28

they won't offer it.

1:05:31

They're doing their best, and I'm doing my best.

1:05:35

The first time you and I have been quiet. Yeah,

1:05:38

yeah, it's

1:05:40

a lot to hold.

1:05:42

Yeah, I love

1:05:44

them a lot, and I'm thankful that they

1:05:46

did it. I'm thankful they did the show. It

1:05:49

was done out of love. It

1:05:53

is done out of love.

1:05:55

But it's not enough.

1:05:57

No, at least I wanted to fight

1:05:59

for more. At

1:06:01

some point, I have to accept

1:06:05

the same way you have to accept change, you have to

1:06:07

accept lack of change in others.

1:06:10

And so that's okay, you

1:06:13

know, And I don't mean that in

1:06:16

an empty way. That is okay.

1:06:18

Yeah, and I'm learning that. But I mean,

1:06:20

boy, am I fight? I was fighting.

1:06:23

I mean, that's the show. I'm fighting. I'm

1:06:25

trying really really hard. I'm

1:06:28

fighting with everything that I have.

1:06:30

You know, you don't know this, but I've

1:06:32

been making the show for eight years

1:06:36

and on episode

1:06:38

fifty of the show, I had my mom

1:06:40

on, and on episode

1:06:42

one hundred, I had my father

1:06:45

on. And you know,

1:06:47

my parents divorced before I was

1:06:50

one. They remarried a few times

1:06:52

over, and that

1:06:54

was very much the subject of those

1:06:56

interviews, and

1:06:58

I put that out there, the

1:07:03

heartbreak in childhood and the

1:07:05

heartbreak they felt with each other, the

1:07:08

subsequent marriages, the divorces,

1:07:12

all authornity shit that

1:07:14

makes us us. And I

1:07:16

remember people in my life going, why why

1:07:20

are you doing this?

1:07:23

It's a very familiar question to me.

1:07:25

I know it is, but the answer

1:07:29

for you, and you can tell me if I'm wrong, but the

1:07:31

answer seems to be that

1:07:34

you just want acknowledgment. So

1:07:38

I have to ask you before we go, like, at

1:07:41

this point, having

1:07:43

made this show, what

1:07:46

would acknowledgment from your parents

1:07:48

look like?

1:07:50

It's the ability to

1:07:52

go there with me, to

1:07:55

not ignore any

1:07:59

parts of me that

1:08:02

doesn't feel good. And

1:08:04

as my sexuality

1:08:09

became more than just sex and

1:08:12

moved into love in my relationship,

1:08:15

acknowledging us has been really

1:08:17

important to me, and

1:08:20

that's felt really good. When

1:08:23

my mother asked about Michael,

1:08:28

that feels really good and

1:08:31

I can accept that. I

1:08:35

can accept that. Rather,

1:08:37

she calls him my friend or

1:08:41

not that that's something that I

1:08:43

think I was really hung

1:08:45

up on before. But that

1:08:48

is movement for us, and

1:08:51

that feels really good. I have

1:08:53

to ask you, what what

1:08:55

did you get from having your parents

1:08:57

on?

1:08:58

Well, it's funny like my mom

1:09:00

came on first and then my dad

1:09:02

was like, well, I want to go on.

1:09:08

Never kopet Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:09:10

The difference is, since I was a kid, I'd

1:09:13

always ask the

1:09:15

most personal, intimate,

1:09:18

oftentimes invasive questions, long

1:09:22

before I had a microphone in front of me, to

1:09:24

my parents, and they would share that

1:09:26

openly. I'm sure not everything,

1:09:29

but a lot. But

1:09:32

when we did it on record, I think I just I

1:09:37

don't know. I think a lot about the end, I guess.

1:09:40

M m h.

1:09:43

It's funny you you interviewed

1:09:45

Tyler for the flower Boy

1:09:48

record and you have a quote in there

1:09:50

where you say, when I begin a

1:09:52

project, I like to start at the end. We're

1:09:55

all going to die yea and

1:09:58

work backwards. Yes, that's

1:10:01

why I did it. Yeah,

1:10:03

And I thought, when

1:10:06

they're gone, that's

1:10:09

hard because I know they're listening to this. I'd

1:10:12

like to high a record of

1:10:14

the things that mattered to

1:10:17

them, to us so

1:10:19

that's why I did it.

1:10:22

It's very beautifully said. And

1:10:24

I I feel

1:10:26

that my

1:10:30

biggest fear one

1:10:33

of my I have too many

1:10:35

biggest fears narrowed

1:10:37

down, dirut, But it gives

1:10:39

your top five. Yeah. But I

1:10:42

thought about all of

1:10:44

these things coming out at

1:10:46

my father's funeral, and

1:10:51

I made my father tell

1:10:54

my mother about the infidelity.

1:10:57

Someone asked me recently, like what the difference

1:10:59

between my brother and I were,

1:11:02

And my brother brought

1:11:04

it up to my dad when he was maybe

1:11:07

twelve or thirteen, and my

1:11:09

dad denied it and

1:11:12

like beat it out of them. He like beat my

1:11:15

brother, Like he never hit either of

1:11:17

us, but he beat my brother that

1:11:19

day and into

1:11:21

not asking questions, into not using

1:11:24

his voice. I

1:11:26

confronted my dad

1:11:29

from a movie set in London. Had

1:11:31

a little whiskey and I was just like pacing around. I was like, you got

1:11:34

to you gotta tell mom. And I confronted

1:11:36

him and.

1:11:37

Then the first thing you said, don't

1:11:39

lie to me. This will go okay if you tell

1:11:41

the truth.

1:11:42

Yes, yes, don't

1:11:44

lie to me.

1:11:44

And what was the call?

1:11:46

The call was there

1:11:49

was a lot building up to it because I was really

1:11:51

angry and I didn't know how to say

1:11:54

it to him, And I said,

1:11:56

don't lie to me, and he listened

1:11:59

and I said a lot of things and he said,

1:12:02

okay, said okay,

1:12:04

okay. He said, actually I always

1:12:06

knew you'd be the one,

1:12:09

is what he said to me. I say

1:12:12

all that to say that Without that,

1:12:15

I kept playing out the

1:12:17

scenario of just

1:12:19

another family showing up to his funeral

1:12:22

and things getting messy, and my brothers

1:12:25

wanting to fight each other, people

1:12:27

being angry, my mother being hurt, and.

1:12:30

Can you imagine the funeral with the second family.

1:12:32

Yeah? Yeah, And that

1:12:35

so much worse to me than home

1:12:38

video sermon on the Mount, the Dry Carmichael

1:12:41

reality show. That's a far worse

1:12:43

scenario to me. And we had

1:12:45

different reasons for wanting to go

1:12:47

on the record, But that's because

1:12:49

so much of my life was off the record that

1:12:52

I needed some type

1:12:54

of validation. I needed to put things out.

1:12:57

I mean that you kept

1:12:59

secret.

1:13:00

Yeah, the part of my family that we kept secret.

1:13:03

I mean this affected. I kept

1:13:06

a lot of my life like my friends

1:13:08

from school didn't to the house. I

1:13:11

kept so much of my life separate,

1:13:13

compartmentalized a lot because I was always

1:13:16

afraid of being I was afraid of my father

1:13:18

being found out because something I knew about

1:13:20

and I was afraid of the embarrassment of that. Was

1:13:23

like, it felt like the world has something on us,

1:13:25

and now you film it,

1:13:28

you release it, it's out. The world

1:13:30

don't got nothing on us.

1:13:33

There's a freedom to that you don't

1:13:35

have anything on me. Like

1:13:37

when I felt the weight of that

1:13:40

my whole life. Like that freedom feels good, and I'm

1:13:42

trying to offer that to my family before

1:13:44

the end. Before I don't want

1:13:47

these things to be a reflection after my parents

1:13:49

are gone, and I feel like, you know, they

1:13:52

got a lot of good years left where

1:13:54

they can be free to can you know they're

1:13:56

retired, should be enjoying this. It

1:13:59

should be out in the world, confident, the

1:14:02

head hell high,

1:14:04

you know, like I want that for them.

1:14:08

I heard you, I really do. It's

1:14:12

just hard. I

1:14:14

hear the argument you're making, I

1:14:18

hear this desire to want to free

1:14:22

them. I

1:14:26

just wonder do they see what

1:14:29

you're doing in the same light. Do

1:14:32

they think that's what you're trying to do?

1:14:34

Is that clear to them?

1:14:38

I've said it to them, and what

1:14:40

do they say.

1:14:42

I think it takes time. I think it takes time.

1:14:46

I just know the worst

1:14:48

thing has happened, right,

1:14:51

Like, you're like, that's why sky diving

1:14:53

is good for a fear of heights. Where

1:14:55

were you or you fell out of the

1:14:57

sky.

1:15:00

You already you fell out of

1:15:02

the sky. You're afraid of heights and you

1:15:05

fell out of the sky

1:15:07

like my parents both they out of the sky.

1:15:10

It does seem like you push them out.

1:15:11

You know, it was tandem.

1:15:15

There's a difference between you deciding

1:15:17

to jump in one being pushed out.

1:15:19

I'm strapped to my father's back.

1:15:21

You're strapped to all their back.

1:15:23

Yeah.

1:15:23

Yeah, But that's the thing

1:15:25

that's that is the thing I'm wrestling

1:15:27

with with you, which is

1:15:30

do you think it's fair that you're the one that gets

1:15:32

to design that.

1:15:37

Well, somebody's

1:15:41

got to take action. Someone's

1:15:43

got to do something. I say that

1:15:45

in the episode of My Dad that his way is

1:15:47

silence and his way is death. Someone's

1:15:50

got to do something. And it's been a lot

1:15:53

of years and nobody was

1:15:55

doing nothing, and

1:15:58

I offered an imperfect solution. But

1:16:02

I offered something.

1:16:04

Yeah, it is imperfect.

1:16:06

It's imperfect. You

1:16:09

know, people ask why, let's

1:16:12

start asking why not.

1:16:13

This is why I wanted to get into all as in a way that

1:16:16

is not surface level with you.

1:16:18

I appreciate it. This has been maybe the

1:16:20

most thoughtful interview of my whole

1:16:22

career. Thank you.

1:16:23

The whole crux of the show is

1:16:27

people saying, why can't you just leave

1:16:29

the past in the past.

1:16:32

Yeah, And we've been having this

1:16:34

conversation about

1:16:36

your career, about your life

1:16:38

now, toggling back and forth

1:16:41

between the past and the present, how the two speak

1:16:44

to each other, how they inform one

1:16:46

another. And I can't

1:16:48

help but shake this

1:16:50

image of you as

1:16:53

a young boy

1:16:56

dressed up in

1:16:58

an Easter Sunday suit, where

1:17:02

you delivered a presentation

1:17:04

to your parents in order to get

1:17:06

twenty dollars to go to them.

1:17:10

Do you remember this?

1:17:11

Yeah? I used to give presentations like

1:17:13

even pre PowerPoint, I give a presentation

1:17:15

to get a computer. Yeah, if

1:17:18

you put on a good enough show, you could if

1:17:20

you make an argument. If you make an argument, you

1:17:23

be rewarded for it.

1:17:24

And you would do that frequently.

1:17:26

Yeah, it was all the performance anyway.

1:17:28

So you know you have this quote you said

1:17:31

you could convince my parents about anything if

1:17:34

you made a strong enough argument. And

1:17:37

as we leave, I wonder if

1:17:40

you see this reality show

1:17:43

as an extension of that childhood

1:17:46

impulse, Like, do you see

1:17:48

this show as a kind

1:17:50

of eight episode argument to

1:17:53

have your parents finally see you and

1:17:56

themselves?

1:17:58

Oh? For sure? For

1:18:01

listen, can't can't

1:18:03

state this clear enough. What I've done is

1:18:05

insane. This is insanity.

1:18:08

It's all look at me, look

1:18:11

at me, look at us.

1:18:13

Dear God, you're trying to persuade

1:18:15

them.

1:18:15

Yes, it's all listen,

1:18:17

it's on HBO. I. I

1:18:20

I still care about their

1:18:23

opinion more than any

1:18:26

reaction, any review, like

1:18:28

any like. Their opinion still matters,

1:18:30

like more than anything, like their

1:18:33

their capacity for change, that

1:18:35

matters more than anything. Them

1:18:39

seeing me matters more them seeing

1:18:41

me. That's why I hurt so much when they don't acknowledge

1:18:44

the show so well, you know it is custom

1:18:46

made.

1:18:48

So has your argument not persuasive enough?

1:18:52

Yeah, wait till you see season two. No,

1:18:57

I know, but think about it, like like Rathaniel

1:19:00

is an argument. Yeah, my career is just speaking.

1:19:02

It's all to continue. Everything is a continuation

1:19:04

of the last thing it's trying to it's

1:19:07

finding me where I am, And

1:19:09

these things can take some time. They can watch the

1:19:11

show. It might be a year from now, might be a couple of years from

1:19:13

now. Maybe I'll get a call, you know, maybe

1:19:15

not. I don't know.

1:19:16

The thing that you've always had, whether

1:19:18

it was Jay Z informing

1:19:21

it or Norman Lear informing it, was

1:19:23

vision. Yes, in the years

1:19:25

ahead, what does that

1:19:28

vision start to look like? The

1:19:30

kid who wrote in the notebook,

1:19:33

I have three specials in

1:19:35

an NBC sitcom?

1:19:38

What does that look like now?

1:19:39

For you? The answer

1:19:43

that comes to mind, I want to make sure

1:19:45

that this is true.

1:19:48

I'm trying to make

1:19:53

things, make art specials,

1:19:57

television shows, movies. However

1:19:59

it comes out that I

1:20:03

can recognize myself

1:20:05

in and the truth of myself

1:20:07

in or myself

1:20:10

in the future, and in a way

1:20:13

for myself in the past. And

1:20:17

Rick Rubens said a thing that I really really love.

1:20:20

Make everything as an offering for

1:20:23

God. And these

1:20:26

things are offerings,

1:20:29

and so how it comes out

1:20:31

right now, I'm thinking about how it plays

1:20:33

out and stand up. You

1:20:36

know, what do I want to say? What am I trying to say?

1:20:38

I'm gathering those thoughts now, whatever

1:20:41

it is, it just has to be true. That's

1:20:44

really important to me. Right now that

1:20:47

things are true. I have to show

1:20:49

things I'm ashamed of some

1:20:51

things I shouldn't be ashamed of and some

1:20:53

things that I should. Because

1:20:56

that's I

1:20:58

think in response to certain thoughts

1:21:00

and criticism about the show, like it's like, yeah,

1:21:03

look, I shouldn't be ashamed of

1:21:05

being gay, I should be ashamed of

1:21:08

letting my friends down. I'm showing

1:21:11

shame every every side

1:21:14

of the shame.

1:21:16

There's a quote in a line from a song, the

1:21:20

most beautiful thoughts are

1:21:23

always beside the darkest.

1:21:27

I wrote that line.

1:21:33

It's a good time to whyoming You

1:21:36

wrote that for Kanye, and I have to say, I think

1:21:38

that is the best way

1:21:41

to describe the conversation we've had.

1:21:44

Yeah, and so I

1:21:47

thank you sincerely for doing that.

1:21:49

Thank you very very much. This has felt

1:21:52

really good.

1:21:53

It's been all right.

1:21:54

It felt really good. I felt

1:21:56

safe and excited to talk to you. I'm

1:21:58

hoping I lived up to it. I would

1:22:00

love to come back.

1:22:02

We'll do it again. But I hope

1:22:04

you know this. You have lived

1:22:07

up to it. And

1:22:10

it means a whole lot to me that

1:22:12

you sat down in this room and

1:22:17

it was open to being open.

1:22:19

You made it easy.

1:22:21

Drag Carmichael, Thank you, that's

1:22:24

the luck.

1:22:24

Thank you, and

1:22:59

that's our show.

1:23:00

If you're enjoyed today's conversation, you can share

1:23:02

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1:23:04

at talk Easypod. You can

1:23:06

also leave us five stars on Spotify,

1:23:09

at Apple, wherever you do your

1:23:11

listening. Special thanks this week to Lindsey

1:23:13

Krug and the team at Origin

1:23:16

PR. I also want to thank HBO,

1:23:18

Mark Canton, Eric Sandler, and of course

1:23:21

our guest Jarrod Carmichael.

1:23:24

To watch the Jerrod Carmichael Reality

1:23:26

show. We've included the link in our show

1:23:28

notes at talk easypod dot

1:23:31

com. New episodes of the show

1:23:33

air every Friday on HBO.

1:23:35

They're available to stream on Max shortly

1:23:38

after that. If you'd like to hear more episodes

1:23:41

with other very funny people, I'd

1:23:43

recommend Nick Offerman, Robbie

1:23:45

Yusef, Quintin Brunson, Abby

1:23:47

Jacobsen, and Bill Hayter. To

1:23:49

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1:23:52

Listen on Apple, Spotify, or

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1:24:08

Sa shop Talk easy

1:24:11

is produced by Caroline Reebok. Our executive

1:24:13

pducer is Jenni Sa Bravo. Today's

1:24:15

talk was edited by the team at iHeartMedia

1:24:18

and Andre Lynn. It was mixed

1:24:20

by Andrew Bastola. It was taped

1:24:22

at Spotify Studios here in Los Angeles,

1:24:25

California. Our music is by

1:24:27

Dylan Peck. Our illustrations are by

1:24:29

Chris Shenoy. Photographs today are

1:24:31

by Julius Chew. Graphics

1:24:33

by Ethan Seneca. I also want

1:24:35

to thank our team at Pushkin Industries,

1:24:38

Justin Richmond, Kerrie Brody, Jacob Smith,

1:24:40

Eric Sandler, Kira Posey, Jordan

1:24:42

McMillan, Tara Machado, Owen Miller,

1:24:45

Sarah Nix, Malcolm Gladwell, Gretacon,

1:24:47

and Chakob Weisberg. I'm Sam Fragoso.

1:24:50

Thank you for listening to another episode

1:24:52

of Talk Easy. I'll see you back here next

1:24:55

Sunday with a Mother's Day special

1:24:57

featuring Pamela Adlot. Until

1:25:00

then, stay safe and

1:25:02

so long.