0:15

Pushkin. Hello

0:31

everyone, welcome to the podcast. This is Talk

0:33

Easy. I'm Sanford Cooso

0:35

and today this

0:37

is episode one fifty. I don't know how genuinely

0:41

how we got here. I think it has to do with many

0:44

of the people who made the show possible, and

0:48

a little bit to do with me. For episode

0:51

fifty, we had on

0:53

my mother, she didn't want

0:55

to do the podcast at all. And

0:57

then for episode one hundred we

0:59

had on my dad, who only

1:02

wanted to do the podcast because my mother

1:04

did the podcast that tells

1:06

you all you need to know about my family. For

1:08

one fifty, the original plan

1:12

was to either have on my

1:14

brother Parker or my brother Nate, or

1:17

to have on my sister Maya. But

1:20

um, for one fifty, it is

1:22

an interview with me

1:25

conducted by my best friend

1:28

Harrison Cameron, who is sitting across from me right

1:31

now. Harrison, how you doing well? I

1:33

feel good? Um? Is that your MPR

1:35

voice? I'm I'm

1:38

very happy to be here and I did interview

1:40

you. I will give you credit, yes as well

1:42

you should. There

1:44

are a few people that know

1:47

me and know my

1:49

like life trajectory. Can you shut the

1:51

helm up? Over there? There are a few people

1:53

I'm trying to give you a compliment I barely wanted. Okay,

1:58

okay, yes, no, Look, genuinely,

2:01

there are a few people that know me

2:03

as well as you do, and I

2:07

felt comfortable relaying

2:09

the kind of basic facts

2:12

that you already knew before

2:14

this podcast. Yeah, it's

2:16

like the facts of your life and all and all that. But but

2:18

I think yes, but but

2:20

but I will say to give your credit.

2:23

Um, we've done one hundred and

2:25

fifty of these almost entirely. Yeah.

2:27

Yeah, and um,

2:31

much of what is said on this podcast

2:33

has not been shared on the show before. So

2:36

um, yeah, I really do

2:38

thank you for doing it. Um,

2:41

thank you to all those listening. I

2:43

really, I really do appreciate uh

2:45

as Harrison laughs. Um,

2:48

it's been wonderful to do the show, and

2:51

uh, thank you for being

2:53

here. Hey,

3:13

ladies and gentlemen. I

3:15

am here with a dear

3:17

friend of mine, Sam for Ghost. So my name is Harrison

3:20

Cameron. I want to describe our setting

3:22

really quick, because I think that's important to say

3:24

so people know what we're going through. Do you agree with that? Yeah?

3:27

Okay, we are currently sitting on

3:30

either side of my father's

3:32

bad in the place

3:34

that we are in the house that we both live. We don't

3:37

live on my father's bad. Look, it's

3:39

good you're being transparent right away. Absolutely,

3:42

you know, I feel I ought to. So

3:45

let's start at the beginning. September

3:47

ninth, nineteen ninety

3:49

four. What's going through your

3:51

head? Is

3:56

this? Do you envision a kind of parody

3:59

of, um, what I do on the show?

4:02

Uh? No, But I came up with that and I thought that was

4:04

pretty funny. So I decided to open with that blood

4:08

blood true in my hand. That's

4:10

an honest answer. Yeah, I know. I mean my

4:13

birth was um

4:15

disgusted, maybe

4:18

maybe unsettling, but it happened

4:20

a month before I was scheduled

4:22

to be born. Yes, and in

4:25

that happening, like I think, both

4:28

I and my mother almost died as

4:30

a result. She had to be put in emergency

4:33

care. And it was a whole, a whole

4:35

thing. So, um, I

4:37

don't think much was going through my head. I think I wasn't supposed

4:40

to be born yet, right, So you're probably

4:42

what's going on? Why am I out here? Yeah?

4:46

Do you say, why am I in Silver Lake? Why am I

4:48

out so early? Oh? Yeah? Yeah,

4:50

So you're a little boy, Um,

4:54

your parents get divorced when you're howled

4:57

pretty early right before one, Yeah,

4:59

before one, it's your fault probably

5:01

right like as as it is with most kids

5:03

when their parents get divorced, it's your fault.

5:06

Um you have you

5:09

know, you cause them to split with your

5:11

tyranny as a baby or whatever it is. Yeah,

5:14

at what age do you like put together

5:16

that that's not maybe the standard for a person

5:19

your age. It's like, it's

5:21

the difference between my memory and

5:23

what I'm told by my parents as

5:25

a memory. But I think,

5:28

I mean, this is gonna sound sad,

5:31

but I think somewhere around like six

5:33

or seven, I

5:37

went over to my best

5:39

friend's house, whose name was George krug

5:42

in Burbridge, and

5:45

I think I must have asked him or

5:48

his parents being like, oh,

5:50

why are you guys both here? And

5:55

I don't know if I asked them that, and

5:57

then George Kruge's

5:59

parents were delayed that to my parents being

6:02

like, just so you know, your

6:04

kids lovely and and he's very talented

6:06

athletically, but he has a question about this

6:09

that seemed also yeah, they're

6:11

saying this six year olds really talented athletics.

6:13

I think I think that was the kind of conversations they

6:15

were having. It was those kind of dialogues about

6:18

youth athletics and all that. So somewhere

6:21

around that time. I mean, it's it's a little sad,

6:24

but um, I didn't think much

6:26

of it, no, because you didn't have, you

6:28

know, the context for it or whatever.

6:31

Yeah, so I didn't have the context

6:33

for it. No, I didn't, but you know

6:35

I learned it pretty quick, right, yes, yeah,

6:38

and then you got

6:40

sad about it later, I would hope, right

6:42

now, right, yeah, I got sad

6:44

about it right now. Um, it's funny that you bring

6:47

up that you were, I

6:49

guess a really athletic six year old because

6:51

truly my next question, oh, because

6:54

I want to sort of just zoom through your life. I want

6:56

to wrap this up in ten fifteen. Yeah,

6:58

uh so so less minutes than years.

7:02

Yes, well you're already six at this point, so

7:04

fifteen more no, damn it. Okay,

7:07

So when when do you get involved

7:09

in athletics and basketball in particular,

7:12

because I know as a young boy that was a really big

7:14

thing for you. It

7:16

must be around that time. Yeah, around

7:18

the time that you find out that your parents are

7:20

divorced. You're like, it's

7:22

time to start exercising. No,

7:25

I think I was aware of a

7:27

separation before five, but I probably

7:30

didn't have the vocabulary for it. But I

7:32

definitely played sports

7:34

early. I mean, my dad ultimately

7:38

preferred that I would. He wanted

7:40

me to play baseball more than basketball,

7:43

although he liked all of them. But I played basketball

7:46

and took a liking to it really early on it. So I

7:48

think around whatever preschool

7:50

is, I think that is five or six, because first

7:52

grade is seven maybe sum

7:55

Yeah, then I started early, and I

7:59

it's like that's a question for parents. I don't know.

8:02

I think I was immediately competitive

8:04

about it because my dad's very competitive.

8:06

Yes, yeah, yeah, I remember you telling me you would

8:09

set goals for yourself, say, oh, I can't, I

8:11

can't leave until I make ten free throws in a

8:13

row or something like that. Yeah, I would

8:15

do. I would do. I had to be ten in a row,

8:18

or they would be the if I shoot

8:20

one hundred, I have to hit eighty five

8:22

of them. Sure. Yeah, well,

8:24

I'm just thinking about I mean, I guess I don't know if most

8:26

people have that or not, but I know I don't

8:28

have it, and none of our close friends have it.

8:31

Really, it's maybe. So maybe the reason

8:33

I stayed with basketball

8:35

or it stuck out to me is Um,

8:38

I think from a really early age I

8:41

was given the template of Michael Jordan

8:44

and for whatever reason.

8:46

And again I can't even answer this, and

8:49

maybe my parents could answer it better, but that

8:52

psychology clearly

8:55

made some sense to me, Like this

8:58

is the way in which you

9:00

make things or produce things,

9:03

is that you you're rigorous about it and you

9:05

take it maybe too

9:08

seriously. Um, I

9:10

think it's just I'm obsessive. I'm an obset

9:12

I mean, I've I've always

9:15

been an obsessive person. And it was it

9:17

was a true about it was true about sports.

9:19

It was true Around that same time of um,

9:22

playing poker with my friends, I

9:25

like started watching all the World Series

9:27

of Poker tapes and I would

9:29

wear sunglasses in the basement of like my

9:31

friends homes playing no

9:34

matter what it was, I got hyper

9:37

focused about it. And

9:39

I don't know the root of it. But

9:42

you know, both of my parents and and

9:44

and those listening

9:46

to this, I assume they have maybe listened to the

9:48

ones with my parents, right, Well, you have two of them,

9:51

Yeah, I have two. Well, I have many of them, but I have

9:53

two that have come on the podcast, and

9:56

both of them came from,

9:59

you know, pretty severe poverty, and I

10:01

think they both made

10:04

something of their lives and

10:06

they're so bad they did not want me

10:09

to have to have any of that

10:11

struggle. But the

10:13

mentalities were still there, like the cores

10:16

of them, and then their principles were

10:18

still like, you have to do the work. Yeah

10:21

you I just there's I have this memory

10:23

of you telling me that you worked

10:26

hard on basketball every day,

10:29

you were practicing, You're doing everything, and

10:31

at a certain point, your mom

10:34

tells you because you wanted to be in the NBA

10:36

was your goal. You're like, you're a little kid, You're like, I want to

10:38

be in the NBA. And you had that experience that very

10:40

few I think kids are

10:42

ah half yeah, of like your

10:45

mom going it's not gonna happen. What are you doing?

10:48

Yeah? I think my mom

10:50

telling me that was

10:52

depressing in the moment, Yes, But it

10:55

also came at a time which

10:57

I I don't think I've mentioned on the show, which is,

11:00

you know, the joys

11:03

of playing basketball or any team

11:05

sports is that you're there's a team. Yeah.

11:09

I experienced, like my first

11:12

authority figure in around the seventh

11:14

grade in a basketball

11:16

coach, UM, who

11:20

was a tyrant, who was

11:23

a complete asshole, and UM

11:26

there was to put him my only

11:28

a case of nepotism on the team that

11:31

was that was so egregious

11:35

that I was like, oh, you know, I

11:38

don't know, this is not worth it. And though

11:40

I kept being on the team, and I would be on the team the

11:42

next year, and I you know, I still play now,

11:44

but UM, that

11:46

coupled with my mom's

11:49

like honest assessment

11:51

of how it was going to go, I

11:53

think made me think best

11:57

to move on. Yeah, what's your favorite interview

11:59

you've done? And

12:01

you can lie for

12:05

the podcast? UM, yes, let's

12:07

do four podcasts. And then outside

12:09

of that, UM,

12:12

it's like the it's the difference between what uh

12:15

there there are episodes that I think are the

12:17

best episodes to listen to, versus

12:21

in the room with someone thinking

12:23

like, yeah, this is the best for me,

12:27

Um, I I and you know, I

12:29

mean I can't describe that. The feeling of

12:32

doing the one with Norman Lear. I think UM

12:35

is up there because he is going into his office

12:37

and talking

12:39

to someone in their nineties and having

12:42

to earn their trust and and and quick

12:44

succession. Yeah. Yeah, you know, so

12:47

that was that and then um without

12:50

the microphones for print. Yeah,

12:54

but probably the one with Whinnie Allen. Sure,

12:57

I would say, yeah, especially

12:59

because at that age you were

13:01

nineteen twenty when that happened. Yeah,

13:04

yeah, and UM yeah

13:06

I was. I just finished my freshman year at

13:08

called was advice, right, Yeah,

13:11

VISs wanted you to put some shit in there, and you're

13:13

like, I don't want to do that. Um.

13:15

Vice beforehand

13:18

said we would do the interview at Winnie Allen,

13:20

but that you needed to um

13:24

bring up at

13:26

the time the accusation

13:29

of him um um

13:32

sexually assaulting his kids, right,

13:34

and that you'd had to bring it up um in

13:37

some form. Sure. And so

13:40

when I sat with him, it was in Chicago.

13:42

He was only doing two interviews. I was the first. Richard

13:45

Roper did did one after me. And

13:50

you know, I asked him, um

13:52

and and and I admit that it's

13:54

weird to talk about him given

13:56

the arrow we're in, and and I know people listening

13:59

have their own um apprehensions

14:03

around him, and I do too, But UM,

14:06

I did ask him. I said, do you think, um,

14:09

the accusations at

14:12

all effect help people go

14:14

into your movies and watch your films, which

14:17

I thought was definitely

14:19

enough. I definitely broached the subject

14:22

and he answered it honestly and he didn't think Um,

14:25

in very traditional Woody Allen fashion, he thought

14:28

not, of course not. And

14:30

so in the aftermath I sent the piece device

14:33

and my editor said, look, um,

14:36

you didn't ask if he raped his kid,

14:39

and so we don't want this, and

14:41

that that was pretty much verbat him

14:44

what Vice said to me, right to

14:46

which I said, that's that's baffling.

14:49

And so then there was a twenty

14:51

four hour period in which I

14:53

sent it to Salon,

14:56

I sent it to Slate, I sent it to

14:59

UM a few places, all

15:02

of them said they didn't really

15:04

want it, and then MPR

15:06

takes it. They pay me an

15:09

abysmal amount of money for

15:11

it, I remember, ended up being Newsworthy. Well,

15:13

what's fascinating is that it goes

15:15

an MPR and all of those

15:18

places that turned me down. I

15:20

mean Salon literally wrote two articles

15:22

about it. You know, I definitely

15:25

got to work for a couple more years because

15:27

of those pieces, and that one with Spike Lee in the Atlantic,

15:29

and there was one

15:31

Herd song in the New Republic that I think all

15:34

helped generate some career,

15:36

but the market was sad. I

15:38

mean, it is sad, and it's

15:40

a really hard thing to do, and those who can make it,

15:43

I mean it's really impressive. You say,

15:45

oh, you know that that journalism,

15:48

the long time form kind of interviews you wanted

15:50

to do, just there wasn't like the demand

15:52

for it or pod. And then

15:56

a little bit after that, a couple of years

15:58

you decided to do like

16:01

long form interviews as

16:04

this podcast. Yes, you did it about one hundred

16:06

and forty nine times. So I'm wondering,

16:09

Um, what's the disconnect? You

16:11

you what? What? What? What brought you

16:13

back to that it's something you wanted to do, you

16:15

felt that there wasn't a market for and yet you decided

16:17

to do it anyway. I there's

16:20

no disconnect. This happened because

16:23

the other couldn't happen. I

16:26

just because I didn't think there was a market for

16:28

it. Did It couldn't happen in print, but it could happen in

16:30

this Yeah. I mean Also it's

16:33

although the market didn't exist, it didn't

16:35

mean that I didn't want it to happen. Sure,

16:38

Um, And by journalism I really was, I

16:40

really do mean like film journalism UM

16:43

and film coverage. Entertainment

16:45

journalism probably is more broad. Creating

16:48

the show UM

16:50

it was it was so clearly

16:53

kind of the only real avenue to

16:55

continue doing something that I love doing that

16:58

I felt like it didn't matter to some

17:00

people, but probably not

17:02

enough for outlets um print

17:05

and digital UM to

17:07

continue paying people a fair

17:09

rate for them. Sure so, but

17:12

it did start to exist on podcast, I mean mainly

17:14

because of UM you know, the rise

17:16

of Marin and um UM,

17:19

the the interest for a

17:21

kind of long form candid talk. Back

17:25

to what I was saying, So you start doing

17:27

film criticism when you were thirteen

17:30

twelve? Would you say, yeah, uh,

17:34

freshman year in high school? Freshman year high school,

17:36

like fourteen? Okay, so

17:39

it was November twenty

17:41

third, twenty twenty

17:43

nine or something like that. Okay, yeah, um

17:46

something so, And and you're you're like,

17:49

was it your it's your cousin or uncle who's doing

17:51

it? And those videos we watched recently,

17:54

Yes, I mean he

17:56

was not doing it right. For

17:58

context, The year I started writing film

18:00

reviews was the year that I,

18:03

uh lived with my father for the first

18:05

time. Right, you're living your

18:07

mother moves to californ Yet. So

18:09

I had been living with my mother up until eighth grade. Yes,

18:12

Um, in the middle of eighth grade, her

18:14

and my two brothers moved to California. Um,

18:17

she separates from my first stepfather

18:21

and I live

18:23

at my dad for the first time. And it's in that year

18:25

where we watch like Ebert

18:28

and Roper at the movies.

18:31

You know, I had always loved film growing up, and though

18:33

I didn't take it deeply serious,

18:36

you know, both of my parents are both film people,

18:38

and so we watched the Ebert and Roper

18:41

Show, and I for some reason,

18:43

I found it so so entertaining

18:46

to talk about movies in this way and

18:48

to to consume them and then to have

18:51

to generate some kind of opinion about

18:53

them. I like doing that.

18:56

And my freshman

18:58

year of high school was pretty

19:00

horrendous. I mean, I didn't have

19:02

many friends at the school that I was going to.

19:04

It was. It was a Catholic school in Chicago,

19:07

and I was on the basketball team

19:09

for a little bit. But I was in

19:11

the middle of like a severe gross

19:13

spurt where I grew like four inches

19:16

in that year, and so you're in pain, in

19:18

pain in my ankle problems, and I couldn't

19:20

really play, and I really didn't

19:22

like anyone on the team. And so yeah,

19:24

somewhere in that in that year, I created

19:27

this blog spot and start

19:30

duke in the movies. And

19:33

I think the first movie I reviewed was twenty one

19:36

Too bad. But it is

19:38

you start this duke in the movies, that's

19:41

I mean, you do that for four years

19:43

before, five years before movie maz I

19:46

mean no, I mean I created Mezzanine senior

19:49

year of high school. Okay, so

19:51

four years. Yeah, and

19:54

after that first year of high school, I despite

19:58

you know, loving Chicago

20:00

and growing up there and then being with my dad,

20:02

I I had a hard time

20:04

at the school. I just moved schools.

20:07

No, I mean I was just a fresh I mean that first

20:10

year I was just going to a new school. I mean I yeah,

20:12

but I mean that's that's it's tough to a

20:14

lot of those kids have known you know, you're you're doing that

20:16

whole thing. I think that when I moved to junior high.

20:19

Yeah, um, it was a bad age.

20:22

Fourteenth of bad age. It's a hard in

20:24

general, you can full stop right there. Yeah.

20:26

So I moved out west

20:29

to Fresno, Sunny California,

20:31

the central Valley. Yes, right, didn't

20:34

know anyone right heat And I meet

20:36

you that first year in my sophomore

20:38

year of high school. Yes, but

20:40

I think it's funny. I remember specifically

20:42

because you were friends with Robbie Oberg, a

20:45

sweet sweet man. You guys

20:47

were playing a game movie Bomb. Yeah,

20:49

and then just by virtue of

20:52

being around each

20:54

other and playing that game, uh, talking

20:56

during lunch, became pals. Would

20:58

you say, would you say that's true? Yeah? I would,

21:01

Sam, I would. You're on the stand, say

21:03

are you sure, Sam?

21:05

Yes, you're giving me a look right

21:08

now? No? No, No, I think that's right. I think I

21:10

think. Um, I didn't have any friends

21:12

in that year, no me included.

21:14

I should say. You weren't a friend till the next

21:17

year. Yeah, I mean we were. We were like we

21:19

were class friends. Sure, in a lot

21:21

of ways. I mean I spent most

21:24

of that year without

21:26

friends. I knew one person going there, Rachel

21:30

Treesman, of course, of course. And um,

21:34

I spent my lunches in

21:36

the library eating and

21:39

watching all the old

21:41

Ebern and cisco On Letterman clips.

21:44

Sure, I watched all of them. And then I watched

21:46

all the old at the movies, and I

21:49

I've seen all of them that are that are

21:53

at least we're At that time, I was so devoted

21:56

to learning everything I could

21:58

about movies, sure, and writing

22:01

about them. And I was writing constantly. I was writing

22:03

every day, and in large part because I didn't

22:05

have other people to talk to, so I

22:07

had these what I think,

22:10

you know, and looking back at it, were just like these surrogate

22:12

worlds that I could find

22:15

myself in and spend

22:17

time with. And I watched movies over and over, the

22:19

mean, the same films. And then I

22:21

was also I had at an openness

22:23

at that time to watch anything. Yeah.

22:26

Well that was the that's the best when

22:28

you're fourteen. Yeah, fifteen,

22:31

You're like, I'm fucking sitting around pretending

22:33

you know that I'm doing homework. Yeah, what else am

22:36

I going to? I was watching all kinds of stuff and

22:39

yeah, and it's in that time that I yeah,

22:42

I loved I loved the experience of

22:44

being alone with my

22:46

thoughts and a movie. Yeah.

22:48

And then I there was some part

22:50

of like I had this routine

22:53

of I go on the weekend,

22:55

I come back, I post my reviews

22:58

Sunday and Monday. I was getting

23:00

better too, and at that time I get

23:02

getting your reps in yeah, thousand hours

23:05

working towards Yeah, yeah, I

23:07

think I was approaching the ten thousand hours. What

23:10

what was the first time you wrote

23:12

a review and you were like,

23:14

fuck, that's pretty good. I wrote

23:17

a review of Boogie Nights that

23:19

I thought was pornography epic in the

23:21

first sentence. I remember that. Yeah, yeah,

23:23

we were Yeah, I called it a pornography

23:25

pornography epic. I

23:27

don't know why. There's a lot of well, because, um,

23:31

I think there was. I I

23:33

had such a unique ability

23:36

at that age to write

23:38

horribly and um,

23:42

I just had this this, this, this, I

23:45

couldn't write things

23:47

simply reading reviews like what you're learning

23:49

how to do something? You look at how other people

23:52

do it. Yeah, I was imitating people,

23:54

Yes I was. But also because um

23:57

I was part of this larger film community

23:59

online, all of them were older,

24:02

and so I was doing what

24:05

I could to like fit in

24:07

and and to seem like I was, you

24:10

know, precocious. And that was the word always used,

24:12

was your precocious? Sure? Yeah, And

24:14

at the time, UM like, well

24:17

sure, but I d I had I credit you know, a

24:19

lot to James Ward. Um yeah,

24:21

I was just going to mention war. Yeah, you know Ward,

24:23

was this really um? Is this really

24:26

weird? Um?

24:28

You know uh, Stocky

24:31

Tall, a

24:33

gay man who wrote these film

24:36

reviews, who was the chief film

24:38

critic for like the Vicelia Times. Yes, who

24:41

um really gifted writer

24:43

and a smart editor. Uh,

24:45

and took me under his wing in

24:48

those early days when I was first getting into press queenings

24:50

and first Now yeah you know him and and and Rick

24:53

later when you were fourteen or

24:55

fifteen or so. No, it started, um,

24:57

no, because I was in Chicago fourteen, But when

24:59

I it was it was my junior year of

25:02

high school. So junior. No, well

25:04

yeah, yeah, because it was your sophomore or my

25:06

junior right, that was when we were really friends. Yeah,

25:08

it was sixteen seventeen. We got into the

25:11

same pe class again. Yes,

25:13

you watching three

25:16

movies a weekend or or or six

25:18

movies a weekend, like and just

25:20

writing and doing all that.

25:22

That's like a competition against

25:25

I guess yourself or no one like there's

25:27

no but it was. It was to generate traffic.

25:30

Yeah, but it's just but you're it's different than

25:32

like playing a sport against someone.

25:34

It's more of just playing something.

25:37

I think that's the natural evolution of

25:39

trying to be a healthier person. I

25:42

think trying to be an

25:45

artist, although there are competitive

25:47

components of it,

25:51

is really the right amount of competition

25:53

and that it is. It is good

25:56

to be competitive and to go after things creatively,

25:58

but it is not the basis

26:01

of all your work. I think it was good

26:03

that I pivoted to film reviews because

26:05

I I wasn't ever

26:07

gonna be a supreme

26:10

athlete. I mean, how would

26:12

you describe me in my senior

26:14

year of high school? M confident

26:17

and thoughtful

26:20

in the way that you you thought about

26:23

like the world, and you know,

26:26

I remember specifically, like

26:28

so two of

26:30

our close friends started

26:33

dating, and

26:35

I remember you, like and

26:38

I talking about it, and

26:42

you having like insights

26:45

that I had not had because I was

26:47

only thinking about myself and

26:50

my point of view on something, where

26:53

you were you were thinking about how other

26:55

people thought about things, or you

26:57

know, in a way that at least I wasn't

26:59

at that point. I mean I was well

27:02

and and you know, I mean pretty pretty self

27:04

absorbed, your you know, concerned person.

27:06

There was one point where I

27:09

was like, I don't understand

27:12

why so many girls like you,

27:16

because you're not like a super

27:19

handsome guy or something. Yeah, And

27:22

at the time that was stunning thing

27:25

to hear. No, it's gotta be especially

27:27

at a your a self conscious team hearing

27:29

that. Yeah, but it was, you know, I

27:31

mean, you're just you're just very confident,

27:34

very sure of yourself. And that's I think

27:36

what drew people to you, because

27:39

most people that age are not are

27:42

not at all. But you know, you would

27:44

accomplished things that people in

27:46

their teen years generally have not. You

27:50

were, you know, talking

27:52

to adults who had done something for a long

27:54

time as their peers. I remember in I

27:57

believe your junior year, you came

27:59

to school very excited

28:02

and you had to print it out email

28:05

from Roger Ebert Dan.

28:07

His one note was stopped telling people

28:10

that you're a child, because

28:13

people won't make that assumption. Like yeah,

28:16

Roger said, don't share

28:18

your age on the internet.

28:20

Who knows m And

28:23

he said you have a future as

28:25

a writer, film critic or

28:27

otherwise. Yes, yeah,

28:29

and so hey, that's awesome,

28:32

that's crazy. That's like, you know, there's

28:34

a person who's your idol, yeah, and

28:37

who is reaching out to

28:39

you. He's taking the time

28:41

to be like, hey, yeah, yeah, I promise,

28:43

even if he's just being polite

28:46

like you know, or nice like Yeah,

28:49

I think I think he had that, especially

28:52

after the surgery

28:55

and in the illness, he

28:57

was pretty sedentary and

29:00

was an active emailer. He

29:03

knew the power he had in

29:07

just spending two minute done an

29:09

email and shooting it off. Yeah, would

29:11

mean the world to you. Yeah, and did, and it did

29:13

for sure. Yeah. I mean it's it's it's it's absolutely

29:17

mind boggling, and it's why to

29:19

this day I owe so much to

29:21

him and Jazz. Yeah. I mean,

29:23

like, you're doing something that is

29:25

a profession and you

29:28

have received

29:31

a thumbs up from

29:34

uh, one of the best people to ever do

29:36

that profession. That was cute, Thank

29:38

you, And I think it was cute. It's very

29:40

cute. But at a certain point,

29:43

you, you know, want

29:45

to pivot to creating stuff.

29:47

I remember you wrote a page of a script

29:50

in high school and brought that to

29:52

school printed out. It was a

29:54

sort of Kevin Smithy

29:57

uh like riff on,

30:00

like, you know, complaining

30:03

about Tree of Life and the other person saying,

30:05

oh, it's whatever. Because I was ranting

30:07

about Tree of Life at the time, and

30:09

you were in favor of it.

30:11

It was a conversation we had many times, and you wrote this

30:13

really interesting thing that

30:15

we tortoise shreds.

30:18

Yeah, shit on and you

30:21

you know, we're not

30:23

happy with that obviously, as no one would being

30:25

creative getting shut down like that. Do

30:29

you think that you

30:31

would have tried to create things like

30:33

movies or or or write things like that

30:36

earlier if you had not gotten

30:39

pretty severely shut down at

30:41

the first attempt that you shared with your

30:44

friends, Yes, all right, Well,

30:46

for context, I

30:49

wrote a script

30:52

or I wrote a page and

30:54

maybe a little more outline of stuff for

30:57

a short film I thought

30:59

we could do, which was about

31:03

two friends that had the kind

31:05

of dynamic that you and Quinn had. Um,

31:08

that was the piece. And I wrote some jokey

31:10

um mall set post theater

31:13

walk out of Tree of Life shah.

31:15

But you know, again, for context, our

31:17

friend Quinn Bowman R Harrison

31:20

and him have this

31:22

kind of almost

31:25

Shakespearean uh

31:27

dilemma in which um,

31:30

Quinn, being his best friend, is in

31:32

love with Harrison's older sister and

31:37

and I didn't expect that right now, and um,

31:40

this was a dynamic that caused

31:43

all of us, I think, pain and confusion

31:45

and it was peculiar, and um,

31:48

that's what the script, that's what that was the kind

31:50

of thing I wanted to make. Right. It's funny

31:53

though, and thinking about that

31:55

time and and trying my

31:57

hand at that, it's

32:00

it's it's really fascinating that I

32:02

was at seventeen kind

32:05

of like, yeah, let's make a movie about

32:07

something that's deeply pinful for

32:10

you too. Um. And

32:12

it's not that it wasn't paled for me, yes,

32:16

yes, but but I and on my head,

32:18

I was like, well, if we do it, then we

32:20

can get to the bottom of it, and that the

32:22

three of us could all like figure

32:25

it out. Yeah, we could return to something, um

32:27

that we probably like more than what it was in the

32:29

current moment. And I

32:32

don't know where

32:34

this comes from for me, but

32:38

um, it's true of the movies I've made. It's

32:40

true of this podcast most definitely. Um,

32:43

it's true of the movies I'm going to make in the next

32:46

couple of years. I

32:48

I'm not afraid sure and

32:50

jumping into things that are so so tethered

32:52

and tied to our

32:54

realities in that moment. Maybe

32:57

I should be a little more cautious, but I

32:59

I'm just not I guess I thought it'd be interesting. I'm

33:02

always if it's interesting, then I'll

33:04

accept the pain of it. Sure,

33:07

Sure, because you're definitely, I think, willing

33:09

to to broker that with other people and

33:11

other people. Do you think you're willing to do that

33:13

with your own yeah, issues. I

33:16

think I did that with the first movie I made.

33:18

Uh. And I think there is

33:21

definitely some part of wanting

33:23

to make the film about my grandfather was getting

33:26

out some part of me that feels

33:29

um like, you know, unaccounted

33:33

for um that you

33:35

know, that being you know, my grandfather coming from Mexico

33:37

and me being Mexican

33:40

and not

33:42

not ever appearing

33:43

like yeah, yeah,

33:46

and and it's so and it's so disorienting

33:49

for me. And yet I feel it's the smallest

33:52

violin to ever talk about it. No, No, it's

33:54

it's it's not a yeah problem, but it

33:56

is funny that like, yeah, but but it is

33:58

it is a problem for me and how

34:00

I see myself. It is. It's confusing

34:03

deal with that, yeah, um, but

34:05

yeah, I do. I do think I

34:08

want to keep interrogating my

34:12

own stuff in my work. And it's one

34:15

of the reasons I said that we should

34:17

do this conversation. I mean, sure,

34:19

you know, I'm certainly trying to

34:21

be open to the questions you have. Sure

34:24

s, well, what's going

34:26

Sure? So, what do you think

34:28

about the fact that often when

34:31

people talk about critics, um,

34:33

they will say, oh, like when usually when

34:35

a critic gives a negative view, they go, oh,

34:37

you know, oh they just they just want to make

34:40

movies, or oh, if it's a comedy critic, oh, they

34:42

just want to be a comedian, or if they just whatever,

34:44

Oh they just want to do that. They just

34:46

can't do it, so they critique it.

34:49

I think sometimes that's true and

34:52

other times it's not at all true because

34:55

I always thinking about Roger Ebert made that one

34:57

movie and then he was like fuck this, nah,

34:59

and he didn't make a movie after that. No,

35:01

I don't think Roger had

35:04

a burning desire to make movies. And in large

35:06

part because Roger

35:09

authored over twenty books, he

35:12

was a natural brilliant

35:15

writer. So in the

35:17

case of him, I don't think he had

35:20

some burning desire to make movies.

35:22

I think if he had lived longer, he

35:25

may have written a screen player too,

35:28

because he had the time too, and he

35:31

was so like I said, sedentary

35:34

that he just wrote all the time, so um

35:37

and he was a quick writer. I mean, he was so so quick.

35:40

But I think there are a lot of film grigs who don't want to make movies,

35:43

and then there are some that definitely

35:45

do but don't feel like they have the

35:48

avenues to do that. What do

35:50

you think about so we because

35:52

we have made fun of reviews

35:54

and stuff. As I mentioned earlier, Peter

35:56

Travers, he's always got a quote

35:59

for it, you know. Yeah, it's

36:01

always like engine stuff. It's like this

36:04

film moves at the speed of light

36:06

and has

36:08

as a combustible engine and

36:11

razors, sharp wit and and it's like

36:14

it's always razors and cars and

36:16

high speed sexy

36:19

description. Yeah, it's it's it's the

36:21

kind of um copy

36:24

that movie studios are overjoyed

36:26

to receive. Yes, yes, but they're

36:28

like, we're putting that on a DVD cover. That's

36:31

that's he but he wants that. Yeah, No, of course

36:33

he wants to be on all the posters. When

36:36

you are writing, when you're working on something,

36:38

Yeah, do you try

36:41

to steer away from anything like

36:43

that? Do you try to? Yeah?

36:46

I don't think so, But

36:48

I also wouldn't know, right, I think

36:50

anything I I think that would

36:53

be completely subconscious. I do

36:55

think, yeah, there is some part

36:57

of of of like, oh, I don't want to do something that's

36:59

been done. But I'm getting over

37:01

that because everything's been done. Yeah no, but

37:03

but those those things. You know, even

37:06

if you took a

37:08

film that we love, um,

37:10

you know, what's the film that we both love? Sure,

37:14

so even if we took Good Fellas and I

37:16

said, let's go shoot it next month,

37:19

We'll get a crew together and we're gonna

37:22

reshoot the film and exactly

37:24

match it up shot by shot, just

37:28

the very act of making it

37:30

is um going to be

37:33

in my own voice. Like,

37:36

even if we took the same songs

37:38

and we framed the shots exactly,

37:41

there would be different actors, there would

37:43

be different lighting, there would be a different

37:45

mood created just by the nature of

37:47

doing it. So it doesn't matter, it

37:49

doesn't matter, it's still it's still yeah, it doesn't

37:51

matter. You know, at least New all the

37:54

all the great people are just taking things and that's

37:56

okay. Sure, I mean you know that

37:58

whole thing. There's like twenty stories. Yeah,

38:02

I think it's three three

38:03

ye man

38:07

verse, not that I'm I'm

38:09

saying like there's you know, story structure.

38:12

Yeah, man versus nature, man versus self, man versus

38:14

society, man versus man, right, conflict

38:17

yeah, yeah, yeah whatever yeah

38:19

ah fuck yeah fuck the

38:21

conflict. Well, um, that's

38:23

the kind of thing where

38:26

you you hear that you know, and

38:29

you're like, well, it may be true,

38:31

but why would you want it to be?

38:34

Oh that there's only it's

38:37

a little it's a little bit like being an atheist.

38:39

It's like, yeah, yeah, probably,

38:42

but also, isn't

38:44

it fun to at least think about it? Yeah?

38:46

I mean whatever is that the way? There's

38:50

just too much certainty in that that I'm uncomfortable

38:52

with, right, where it's a yes, we don't have proof,

38:55

but also we're betting on something that

38:57

doesn't require any proof. Yeah,

39:00

you know, so it's it's it's very confused. I think, yeah,

39:02

so I don't have to answer your question. But

39:04

but yeah, well it does make me think

39:06

what is your because we don't talk about faith

39:09

really at all ever. Yeah, and for

39:11

a good reason, right, what's

39:13

that? What's that reason? Well, I'm

39:15

a scientologist. I don't

39:17

have much to

39:19

talk about in the way of religion because it's not a part

39:21

of my life. It it just wasn't

39:24

that important to me. It seemed important

39:26

as a kid. Oh yeah,

39:28

but it also as a kid you're getting told and you're

39:30

like, ah what, Yeah, but I didn't believe

39:32

it, And yeah, I never believed

39:35

it. I never believed it. I fell asleep in religion

39:37

class. Both of my parents were

39:40

like, yeah, yeah, okay, you know,

39:42

take that with a grain of salt. Yeah, make up your

39:44

own mind. So, um,

39:48

it doesn't play a big factor in my life and I and

39:51

that's something I think about. But when you think about

39:54

mortality, is it

39:56

I mean, like, what do

39:58

you think happens after we die? I mean

40:00

like, yeah, is it just over? Because

40:02

that sucks? Um? I

40:06

sure hope not. Oh god, right,

40:09

yeah. Shouldn't it be so nice if something happened?

40:12

Oh yeah, I mean it sounds

40:15

nice that something happened, and

40:17

that something would happen, and and then maybe in some

40:19

ways it's okay that something doesn't

40:21

happen. Well, if it's like you

40:24

know, I, you know whatever, that's a whole it's

40:26

a whole thing. Yeah. I have some part

40:28

of me that believes that I've been here

40:30

before, right, Um,

40:32

when do you feel that? I don't know, I

40:35

think it I just have feelings

40:38

and some kind of sensations

40:40

that that that I that this is not my

40:42

first rodeo. What what do you think,

40:46

like in a god situation?

40:48

What's your ideal God? An

40:51

ideal god? An ideal god? Well,

40:53

I mean think about so there could be a God who

40:55

just like is watching and hoping

40:57

for people, and then people die

41:00

and God's like, hey, good

41:03

job out there, good good work, like

41:05

a kid coming off of the coming back

41:07

to the bench at a sporting of right. I

41:10

don't know. I've never thought about that in my life. What

41:12

the ideal of God is? It

41:14

would be nice if it reared

41:17

it's head at any point

41:19

in our lifetime, like

41:22

publicly. I don't feel

41:24

like it's present. I don't think it's omnipresent

41:28

or omniscient or I don't

41:30

see it. But do you ever have those things

41:32

where like things are comically going

41:35

wrong for you on a bad day and you're

41:37

like hey, you look up and you're like, hey, what

41:39

the fuck? I have those days?

41:41

I just don't think it's that. No,

41:44

I know, it's just fun to blame something invisible.

41:46

Yeah, no, I blame myself. Well that's

41:49

probably more healthy. What's

41:51

next? What's next? No, all right, you want to get away

41:53

from religion. Sam afraid

41:55

of God doesn't want to disc God on the

41:57

air. Wow. Impressive. You're

41:59

an eldest sibling. You have three

42:02

younger siblings, though for a majority

42:04

of your life you lived with

42:06

two of them. Is that correct? Yes, so

42:09

as the eldest siblings, this is something I think about.

42:11

My older brother wants to be a director as

42:14

well. I think there's something

42:16

to you being in charge

42:19

because we the eldest sibling, you were in charge as

42:21

you go through things. Do you think that that has

42:23

influenced other aspects of your life aside

42:25

from professionally. Do you think it

42:27

has? Well, Yeah, that's why I'm asking a question

42:29

obviously, but um, I think

42:31

it has to use this phrase

42:34

again, reared its head all

42:37

in all sorts of places. Yes, I do.

42:40

In directing definitely,

42:42

and in making the show,

42:45

in playing sports in um

42:49

uh, some of my friendships, um,

42:51

probably in some of my relationships

42:55

romantically. Until

42:57

we get self driving cars, I'll be in control

42:59

that can I be honest? We both

43:01

know that's not gonna happen. We're gonna gelp

43:03

driving cars. Self driving cars. You're

43:06

gonna Oh no, I'm not Oh absolutely not.

43:08

No, I cannot wait. I'm so excited

43:11

Sam. I'm so excited for Sam.

43:15

The only you're gonna get addicted

43:17

to dramamine? What are you talking about?

43:19

Well, that is the one downside is that I wouldn't

43:21

need to take That's what I'm saying. That's the whole point

43:23

of what I'm saying. No, I would, I would. You

43:26

can't drive if you're if you're in a car, you're not

43:28

driving your nauseos. Yes, yeah,

43:30

yeah, you can't do self driving cars. I

43:32

have motion sickness. But

43:34

the thing is, dramamine does work. No,

43:36

it does. That's what I'm saying. You're gonna get addicted to drama

43:39

and I don't know if that has It's a low stakes

43:41

addiction, huge side effects. Yeah

43:43

so yeah, now you get a headache every

43:45

six weeks or something. Yeah. Well anyway, Yes,

43:48

I do think I'm a controlling

43:50

person. Sure, how do you think

43:52

that that has affected

43:54

your art? Um? Well, we've

43:57

made five

44:00

movies and one of them are out I

44:02

think that says it all. I think if I was um

44:05

less controlling and

44:08

less pressure about things, all

44:11

of them would be out right. But

44:14

I'm not, and in

44:17

many ways, I'm sure it's a hindrance,

44:20

and in other ways it's one of my greatest

44:23

virtues, and navigating

44:26

that is challenging every day.

44:28

Yeah. Can I tell you one of the weirdest things about

44:30

integewing. Yeah, because man, I

44:32

just asked like a bad question and you gave

44:35

a good answer. Is that, like

44:37

I find as I've been doing this, a

44:40

lot of the questions that I've written,

44:43

um only necessitate small

44:46

answers. You know, I've

44:50

got a lot of leaders in this sucker

44:52

well interviewing

44:55

lives and dies by

44:57

the follow up question, yes,

45:00

yes, which which I've noticed I do

45:02

not have. I

45:04

mean, I think you have it. I think you're not doing

45:07

it all the time. I'm I'm

45:09

racking my little brain. Yeah,

45:12

okay, uh sure, So

45:15

let's yeah, how do you feel that you're

45:20

just generally controlling nature has affected

45:22

your personal relationships, not just me, all

45:24

of them. How do you think

45:26

it has? Hmm? It

45:29

feels unfair, but but

45:32

I think since this is one of

45:34

those unique situations

45:36

where your account

45:38

is probably more interesting than

45:41

my own because I'm just going on

45:43

guesses and assumptions and you can actually speak

45:45

to it. Well, No, I think on

45:48

certain parts of it are

45:51

positive, other parts of it are,

45:53

so go into that what's positive and what's

45:55

positive? I mean, like you

45:57

know, for example, when we were in high school. Even now, I'm

46:00

an indecisive person, you always

46:02

made plans and stuff when in high

46:04

school because me and Quinn and Jones

46:06

were all indecisive dudes, and

46:09

you would put stuff together because

46:11

we didn't want to and you wanted

46:14

to. So it was it was a very nice

46:16

mesh fit. Um.

46:18

I think in adulthood it's

46:22

you know, it's manifested itself in

46:24

different ways, probably, um.

46:26

Yeah. Like for example, like I remember finding

46:29

out that you needed to be driving

46:33

to um,

46:36

like not be nauseous in a car, yeah,

46:39

and being like kind of

46:41

taken by it. So you've been my

46:43

best friend, um

46:45

for four years? Yeah,

46:48

I would I would say probably longer than that, but I

46:50

or, oh maybe five

46:53

years. I remember the moment

46:55

that we that I felt that we became,

46:57

that I knew that you were my best friend, not that

47:00

we became, but then I knew you were my best friend.

47:02

How would you say my controlling

47:04

nature has like impacted our relationship,

47:07

UM, our relationship, our

47:09

friendship. I think that I am

47:12

very passive and that

47:14

you are very active and that

47:17

in the beginning of our friendship and relationship,

47:19

Yeah, I was

47:22

in San Francisco and didn't want to leave

47:24

my house ever, and

47:26

you sort of forced me to do that,

47:29

Yeah, and to socialize

47:31

with people, which was positive. I

47:35

do feel in those situations

47:38

though, that I did not have

47:40

a choice, right, which

47:43

we've talked about. And

47:45

I remember the first time

47:47

and only time you tried to get Milo, my

47:49

roommate, to come out, and

47:51

you employed the same admittedly

47:55

guilt based tactics that you would use

47:57

to force me to get out because I was

47:59

so in a shell that like that was the

48:01

only way I would go out, and you

48:03

would use the same tactics on Milo and

48:07

or you did this one time and he was just

48:09

like laughing, like

48:11

he was like, what the fuck are you talking about,

48:13

Like I've never met you. What

48:16

are you saying? Yeah, Yeah, you're you're saying

48:18

the same things that you

48:20

would say to me that, without fail got

48:22

me out every time because I wouldn't feel

48:24

guilty. And this

48:26

is someone who literally never

48:29

oh no, he went out once in

48:31

the two years I lived with them. So he's

48:33

probably more of an abnormality than I

48:35

am. Sure no. Yeah, but I'm just

48:37

saying I remember that speech

48:42

that you had given me so many times, and then

48:44

having it recontextualized through

48:47

those of No, I

48:49

wouldn't say that, but it was just having

48:51

it recontextualized through the lens of Milo

48:54

being like, you know,

48:56

you you thought I had some moratorium

48:59

over like your time or something. Well, and also

49:02

it was like that was how I was raised

49:04

with my mother, being like

49:07

I didn't want to do things, but I had to

49:10

because I felt

49:12

guilty and I had to do it. Yeah,

49:14

And it was like and I, you know, I love him, whether

49:16

she's you know, my favorite person, have it, but like

49:20

guilt has my life

49:22

is very motivated by guilt and fear, which

49:24

I'm not proud of. But that's just the truth. And that's

49:26

probably going to be the ball game, you know.

49:29

Yeah, yeah,

49:31

I do remember that. And I,

49:34

um didn't love having

49:37

to convince you to go out. No, I'm

49:39

sure, I'm sure that was a bummer. I

49:41

didn't like convincing anyone to go out. I

49:43

did it, um because

49:47

on the whole it was I

49:49

knew, I knew in my heart the right thing

49:51

to do, um, and that

49:54

most of the time, and there are exceptions, of

49:56

course, most of the time, Um,

49:59

it was beneficial for

50:01

people to go out, and my my,

50:04

my feeling at that time, it's

50:07

a lot different now. Um

50:09

I did. I do recognize that I

50:11

had some ability

50:13

at that age to like look at things from

50:16

a bird's eye view and

50:18

in my head every time I

50:20

convinced people to go out and to bring people together,

50:22

which is what I love doing the most. I

50:25

knew that our lives were

50:28

never going to be easier, yeah,

50:30

and that they were never going to be less

50:32

consequences. You always were

50:34

putting like things together,

50:37

yet you loved

50:39

it, and that's part of the time of the like the controlling,

50:41

like in the director facet of it. Like

50:44

you are putting things together constantly, even

50:47

when we were in high school, where like you

50:49

would come up with ideas for things for

50:52

people to do or just reasons for people

50:54

to be together. Yeah, like sports

50:56

game, which is where we just put

50:58

on CPU playing against CPU on

51:01

multiple different video games and

51:03

just watch and go around and bet on them

51:06

with nothing the quarters we had and

51:09

just like fuck a, right, But like you're just creating

51:11

events, you know, Yeah,

51:14

I don't, I don't know. I love that you love

51:16

that well, you also that became your job

51:18

when you worked at the ROXY was literally

51:20

just creating events,

51:23

creating screenings, creating the one with

51:25

the jazz band. And the

51:28

thing I love about that, The thing I love

51:30

about creating events is that

51:32

it didn't exist before it was created.

51:35

Yeah, And that I realized

51:37

at some age, like, oh, I could generate

51:40

a good time that people

51:42

didn't even know they were going to have. And

51:46

I love that. I love that

51:48

that can happen. And I

51:50

don't mind the

51:52

logistical work that it takes sure

51:55

to create the experience that it go. Yeah, and

51:57

I and I and and that like, that's just part

51:59

of it. And there's some I

52:02

really, I really, when

52:04

we get to the root of it, it is coming

52:07

from UM a good place.

52:10

However, I see how UM

52:14

I maybe forced

52:16

people to do things they didn't want to do. I made,

52:18

I made them, you know,

52:21

kind of pivot out of their comfort zone and I and

52:23

I pushed and was too

52:25

aggressive in in some situations,

52:27

and I, UM don't like

52:29

to do that now, and I tried not to do that as much.

52:31

And I see that I do,

52:34

and I and I go back and forth on whether

52:36

it's worth Yeah,

52:39

whether the event is worthy of

52:41

the push.

52:43

In an ideal world, um,

52:46

I wouldn't have to push. I was just gonna say.

52:48

And in an ideal world, um,

52:52

I think people would be less disconnected.

52:55

Well, in an ideal world, do you have to

52:57

put it together in the first place? God? No,

53:00

No, And that would be okay.

53:02

Yeah. Can I say I

53:04

have this memory that I had not thought about in a

53:06

while that I think is really funny. But we are at

53:08

a party in college. The police

53:10

come to the door because of the noise.

53:13

When the police come to the door, King Kunta

53:15

by Kendrick is playing. The

53:19

song is paused. Of course, you

53:21

give me a phone call, You go

53:23

out to deal to police along with the people who own

53:25

the house. You don't own the house. You go out to just help

53:28

with the problem as as you are want

53:30

to do. And you

53:32

give me a call and you go,

53:35

hey, we're about to walk

53:37

in. You have to skip

53:39

ahead to the drop of King Kunta

53:42

and play it right after

53:44

we say the cops left, because

53:48

that's gonna be an awesome moment and

53:50

people are gonna love that. No

53:53

reason. At this point you're calling, you already

53:55

know everything's fine. Everyone in the

53:57

place is like freaking out. Local problems

54:00

and you have just decided

54:03

to out of what

54:05

should have just been we walk in start

54:07

playing music again. You have decided

54:10

to create a moment. Yes, but

54:12

you are directing that you know that

54:14

is like

54:18

what what? What is that that that

54:20

want? That need? Uh,

54:22

that's wonderful because

54:25

it's it's just like we're here

54:28

for such a I mean probably here

54:30

for a small amount of time. It's

54:33

funny because you use the word decision.

54:36

I did not think this would be awesome.

54:38

It just intuitively, that's

54:41

just I was like, oh, yeah, of course,

54:43

like, oh this is awesome, it's going to be awes

54:47

it would be awesome. Yeah,

54:50

And I I don't know what that is. I

54:53

just I just I'm

54:56

always looking, not even looking at I

54:58

always find myself wanting

55:00

to create moments that, um

55:03

would be interesting. Some part

55:05

of me thinks that's

55:08

how life should be. I

55:11

knew. I knew then that

55:14

when we have kids, we

55:17

are going to think, yeah, man,

55:20

college was that time was really fun.

55:25

Let's talk about now

55:27

it's present day. As all

55:30

great interviewers do, what's

55:33

next. Well, it's

55:37

it's just such a good question. Um

55:42

uh yeah,

55:45

what's next? Yeah, what's

55:48

next? Um? You

55:50

know, I want the show to

55:52

keep going, right, I don't know how it could

55:54

after this episode. Of course, this feels like a closing

55:56

up shop. Cheers turn off the lights. Um

55:59

yeah, I mean you know, I want to make movies. I want

56:01

to make the show. I'd like to not

56:03

be broke, of course. Um,

56:07

I'm ready to have I'm

56:09

yeah, like financial career stability.

56:12

Sure, I'm ready to not spread

56:14

myself so thin. I'm in a very

56:17

precarious place right

56:19

now, although it has helped.

56:21

I'm greatly by your

56:24

father, Oh killer dear,

56:26

Yeah, you know him let me stay here for

56:28

the small the small amount

56:30

of money that I pay. Yeah,

56:33

I couldn't have done anything I've done here in

56:35

La without him. In clia,

56:38

I'm I'm. I have always

56:40

been excited to be an adult.

56:44

Since I was a teenager. I was excited

56:46

to be an adult. And now I'm

56:49

kind of an adult and I'm not thrilled about

56:51

it. Do you feel how close

56:53

to adulthood do you feel? I'm I'm

56:55

I'm percent there. I think

56:58

I think I'm eighty percent

57:00

there. Everything that I've read,

57:02

that you've written, seriously, that we've talked

57:04

about, is about relationships. It's

57:07

about love and that the

57:09

nature of that is at least a

57:12

portion of it. Um,

57:15

is there anything else that you feel you want to explore

57:17

because that that has been you can agree like a majority

57:19

of it, even the stuff we've written together. Yeah,

57:22

I think love is a pretty

57:25

good It's pretty big,

57:27

pretty big part of life from what I've

57:29

heard, all encompassing. Yes, I

57:32

want to make stuff that's funny with you. I

57:35

think, Um,

57:37

it's gonna be a little hard for me to deviate

57:39

from what I know and

57:42

what has been an integral

57:44

part of my life and and still to this

57:47

day. I think my parents splitting up

57:49

and falling in and out of love with with new

57:51

people throughout very

57:53

formative years. Yes, yes, yeah,

57:55

informed the kind

57:58

of stories I'm interested in. So, your mother,

58:00

that is something we should touch on

58:02

before you go. She was obviously the first parent

58:04

you had on UM and

58:06

you with your mother, I've gone

58:09

through things that are not i would say

58:11

typical for a child.

58:14

But you're you have this relationship with your mother that I

58:17

at once envy and do not envy

58:20

because she was really real with you

58:22

in weird ways. How do you think that affected your relationship

58:25

with honesty? I think it may be

58:28

not afraid of it most people.

58:31

I think it doesn't come naturally to most people. I

58:33

found early on in doing interviews

58:36

that the more

58:38

honest I was but people, the more

58:40

they were willing to be honest in return.

58:42

I think a lot of people are just waiting for it. I

58:44

think I think they have would like to say,

58:47

yeah, they want to expel something, but

58:50

so much of our day to day lives have nothing

58:52

to do with being honest and

58:55

transparent. So I think my mother, yeah,

58:58

instilled a kind of

59:00

peculiar, rigorous honesty

59:03

vulnerability in me at a very

59:05

early age, and my dad did

59:09

too. Yeah. I mean, would you say

59:11

that that is why you were, from

59:13

such a young age able to I

59:16

don't know, talk to adults. Yeah. I mean

59:18

it's an obvious connection. And yet I'm

59:20

fascinating because I, yeah,

59:23

I was very comfortable

59:25

talking to adults at a very

59:28

young age. You strike me as a person

59:30

who at ten was going over to your

59:32

friend Terry's house and like

59:34

we were like missus mckillham,

59:37

these are really nice cookies, and like talking to

59:39

her about whatever. Like you strike me as someone

59:41

where the parents go hmm,

59:43

I like that kid, Yes, I

59:46

was. I was curious yes, I

59:48

am curious. I I I also

59:51

what I found to be true, what

59:53

I found to be um interesting

59:57

is that the more

59:59

I um, the more I asked questions.

1:00:01

And it didn't really happen until I was like early

1:00:04

teens. I think with with with

1:00:06

older folks, um people,

1:00:09

we're willing to share all kinds of

1:00:11

things. There there was

1:00:13

especially at that age when you have a

1:00:15

young person asking questions

1:00:18

to someone three times by yeah,

1:00:20

they're they're more willing to put things in like yeah,

1:00:23

honesty of the box that this child will accept.

1:00:26

Yeah, because they're like, oh well that's interesting.

1:00:28

Yeah. Sure Sure. But I I always

1:00:31

well in a way, I felt like

1:00:34

I had so much to learn. Sure, and

1:00:36

I still feel that all the time. Would you

1:00:38

say that as a younger

1:00:41

man interviewing all of these interviews,

1:00:43

clearly looking young and and

1:00:45

and not childlike,

1:00:47

but being very young, would you say that is

1:00:50

why you are able to have interviews

1:00:52

you had early on where people are more vulnerable.

1:00:55

Yes, although that

1:00:58

only gets you so far. In addition

1:01:00

to to looking young, UM

1:01:03

well researched and also

1:01:06

I approached it differently than other people.

1:01:09

I did not go in looking at questions.

1:01:11

Yeah, A big part of your early interviews.

1:01:14

I think is then involves the element

1:01:16

of surprise because

1:01:19

you are so prepared. Yeah,

1:01:22

that, especially in the earlier

1:01:24

episodes, you will see

1:01:27

you will hear people surprised

1:01:29

by you to what to what end would you

1:01:31

say that that element of surprise has

1:01:34

helped you, like, you know, get

1:01:37

get more honestly out of people. Like

1:01:39

I said about people being willing

1:01:42

to be honest, but are not prompted

1:01:45

or asked to be honest, I

1:01:48

think being prepared helped a

1:01:50

great deal. And I

1:01:53

tried in making the show to

1:01:56

really approach the people that were coming on in

1:01:59

a way that was earnest,

1:02:03

sincere and

1:02:06

not after something in

1:02:09

a traditional journalistic fashion, not

1:02:12

not searching for reaching for something.

1:02:15

Yeah, I'm not. I'm not. I had not created the show

1:02:17

to get headlines and maybe to the detriment

1:02:19

of the show curiosity. Yeah,

1:02:22

I think everyone had

1:02:24

that has come on would would agree

1:02:28

when you because they think about like, you

1:02:30

know, there's like you asked Malcolm

1:02:32

Gladwell something and he goes like like

1:02:36

he goes like buh, look, there's like a brea

1:02:38

like what what like how do

1:02:40

you how did you know? Like that's so crazy?

1:02:43

Yes, And then goes into the answer, are

1:02:45

you searching for

1:02:48

nuggets like that? I pinpoint

1:02:51

um details,

1:02:55

moments, um, ancillary

1:02:57

characters. Yeah, um,

1:03:00

small seemingly small achievements

1:03:03

out of a biography. Sure that

1:03:05

I think that A have not been

1:03:07

asked about and be in

1:03:10

and in thinking about them, Um,

1:03:12

honestly and critically feel

1:03:15

like formative things for them.

1:03:17

That move out to California

1:03:20

means something. You know that that

1:03:22

job at that time is

1:03:24

an important impactful moment. Yeah.

1:03:28

Yeah, And I that I don't

1:03:30

know where that comes from, but

1:03:33

um, it's I mean,

1:03:35

I'm just writing as I'm writing

1:03:37

a script is all it is, each episode

1:03:40

of their objectory, what they've

1:03:42

done. Yeah, every life is a story.

1:03:45

Yeah yeah. But and and trying to highlight

1:03:47

the moments that are really fascinating.

1:03:50

I love the guests that come on that

1:03:52

feel like they have been accounted

1:03:55

for and cared for and

1:03:57

and thought of. And um

1:03:59

that's the goal. Are there are there memories

1:04:03

the moments between you and I that you think

1:04:05

would be fascinating? Oh?

1:04:09

Um, well, I was going to bring it up a little

1:04:11

earlier. But the moment where I think where

1:04:13

I felt, oh this is my best friend

1:04:16

was I had stayed up until

1:04:20

six in the morning writing an essay in

1:04:22

college that I had to

1:04:24

turn in. It was like end of the semester, my

1:04:26

first semester of college ever. And

1:04:29

I also found out that morning. Then

1:04:31

at six in the morning, I got an email that said I

1:04:33

got a job that I had applied for and

1:04:36

you had texted me, you

1:04:40

know, at midnight, and at six in the morning,

1:04:43

I texted you. You texted

1:04:45

something back, and

1:04:48

we texted back the exact same response

1:04:51

at the same time. And

1:04:54

then we had like a two hour phone call.

1:04:57

And you had just broken up with like the

1:04:59

first girlfriend that you were, like

1:05:02

your first like real girlfriend. Yeah,

1:05:06

and I had just gotten this job and we just talked

1:05:08

for two hours and had a great conversation

1:05:11

much better than this. Listeners should check out that

1:05:13

one, because that one was pretty good actually, But

1:05:18

uh, that is that is a

1:05:20

defining moment where I remember being

1:05:22

like, oh, this guy's my

1:05:24

favorite. Yeah, I love this guy,

1:05:27

and that, like

1:05:30

you know, from there, I was like, oh, yes, this guy's

1:05:32

my best pal and you've been my best friends

1:05:34

sends. Then I mean, I don't know, I remember

1:05:36

that, Yeah, I

1:05:38

was. I was confused

1:05:41

and sad, but not heartbroken

1:05:44

although I had broken someone's heart, you

1:05:46

were bummed out and I listen

1:05:48

to you, which, as you know, I'm not a good

1:05:50

listener at all. But

1:05:54

I remember like really giving a shit

1:05:57

and being like, oh man, that's

1:06:00

too bad. I'm really

1:06:02

bummed from my friend because he feels bad. You

1:06:04

know. Yeah,

1:06:06

you are a critical person in

1:06:09

general, I would say, um,

1:06:13

you know, part of which is demonstrated by you

1:06:15

actually being a critic for

1:06:18

a period of time. I asked

1:06:20

you earlier if you handled

1:06:23

criticism well when

1:06:25

people criticize your art, and how have you

1:06:27

felt or how would you feel? Do you

1:06:29

think when people will you know, criticize

1:06:31

your art eventually? Um,

1:06:34

I'm sure I will be frustrated

1:06:38

and excited and scared and

1:06:41

anxious and nervous and hopefully

1:06:44

if, if, if the response is positive, I'll feel

1:06:47

okay about it. Yeah,

1:06:49

I'm sure I'll glom onto the few negative

1:06:51

things or the many negative things. Um.

1:06:55

I think when it comes to feedback

1:06:58

on the work, I

1:07:01

think it depends on who it's coming from.

1:07:04

Sure, but by and large,

1:07:06

I

1:07:07

uh, you said

1:07:09

I struggle with it. I don't. Yeah, I mean I don't

1:07:11

know. I invite it. Um,

1:07:15

I've definitely invited it on many

1:07:17

many things that I've made. Um, So

1:07:22

I think just the very act of inviting

1:07:24

it is the

1:07:26

demonstrates that I'm interested in it. Now,

1:07:29

I may not always take it so well, sure,

1:07:31

but it's it's almost I

1:07:33

don't take it well because I think, um,

1:07:37

the other person is bad

1:07:40

or or being mean or unkind

1:07:43

I take it maybe harshly

1:07:46

because um,

1:07:48

you know I take things to heart in

1:07:51

general. Yeah, yeah, I take things to heart. So what

1:07:55

would you say, is like a

1:07:57

source that you are You're

1:08:00

saying it depends on the source, Like if it's yeah,

1:08:02

what is a source that like is okay?

1:08:04

And what is one that is is hurtful or

1:08:06

not okay or that you wouldn't feel as good about.

1:08:09

But yeah, it's And I said that, I was like, well,

1:08:11

I don't really invite anyone in

1:08:14

that I don't feel comfortable with. Sure,

1:08:16

So the small pool of

1:08:18

people that I do send, yes, the things

1:08:21

that I want to make are people I all trust. Yeah.

1:08:23

I hope my friends, my former

1:08:26

friends, many of them, and the people that I knew growing

1:08:28

up as a teenager.

1:08:31

I hope they're kind.

1:08:35

I hope they're kind towards me. Yeah, but

1:08:38

you but you, I mean, I think you brought it up because you feel

1:08:40

like I don't respond so well to it, So you're thinking

1:08:42

about some instances. Well,

1:08:45

no, No, it's one of those things where it's like, well, yes,

1:08:47

I think I think you're a relatively when

1:08:50

it comes to criticism. Sometimes you can

1:08:52

be sensitive. But I'm more

1:08:54

worrying on a grand scale

1:08:58

of like, if you create

1:09:01

something that is big, ah

1:09:03

and you have a grand scale of people

1:09:05

looking on it, the

1:09:07

world is a mean place and there

1:09:10

will be just thirty

1:09:12

percent of people will just be mean because

1:09:14

that's just what happens. Yeah, I mean, I'm

1:09:16

wondering how you feel you will deal with that. I feel

1:09:19

I feel my track record indicates

1:09:22

how I would deal about that. I mean, since

1:09:24

since I was a young person, yeah,

1:09:27

existing in an adult space, there

1:09:30

have been plenty of adults who have said unkind

1:09:33

things about me, and

1:09:36

I kept going right. It

1:09:39

did hurt, Yes, it hurt, but it hurt, But I

1:09:41

but I'm not paralyzed. I'm affected,

1:09:43

but I'm not paralyzed. Sure, And I think

1:09:47

if thirty percent of the people hated some movie

1:09:49

I made, um, I'd

1:09:51

be hurt, but I wouldn't be paralyzed. Would

1:09:53

you say that would motivate you or would

1:09:55

you say that it would, you

1:09:57

know, just make you pivot

1:10:00

or slow down? Or how would how would you characterize

1:10:02

how you believe that you would react in that situation.

1:10:04

I believe I would keep going. No,

1:10:06

sure, no, I get that, it's just you

1:10:09

know, but it's just fascinating to me that

1:10:13

something that the reason you got your

1:10:15

start will be something

1:10:18

that affects you throughout

1:10:20

your career. Yeah, you know, yeah, kind

1:10:22

of interesting. Yeah, I think that's wonderful.

1:10:25

I like the poetry of that. That's

1:10:27

cool. It's a weird world. It's been

1:10:29

so weird to look

1:10:32

at you, sometimes in the eyes and

1:10:34

sometimes in the microphone throughout this interview.

1:10:37

Yes, so I

1:10:39

want to say, Sam, it's been great having you on

1:10:41

my podcast. I'll do a better

1:10:43

job next time. I'll

1:10:46

lean away from the mic probably more

1:10:48

next time. Realistically, I'm not good

1:10:50

at the microphone thing. But

1:10:52

it's been fascinating to get to know you over

1:10:55

these seven hours, and

1:10:57

I just want to say that

1:11:00

you're a best palentce. I love you, and

1:11:02

I'm sorry that I

1:11:07

didn't perform

1:11:09

at talk this to the audience, not to

1:11:11

you. Uh to Talk Easy

1:11:14

standards. But I will say on episode

1:11:16

three hundred when I return, I

1:11:19

will be prepared.

1:11:22

I will be ready, and I will be

1:11:24

aggressive and angry and hurtful

1:11:27

and mean and bad, but in a

1:11:29

way that is actually fun if you

1:11:31

do think about it. Thank you for asking

1:11:34

me questions.

1:11:37

I was gonna say thanks

1:11:39

for having me on, but I I thought we were

1:11:42

doing that. No, that would be weird. It's your

1:11:44

show, and

1:12:07

there it is. Um. That is episode one

1:12:09

hundred and fifty on the podcast. Harrison

1:12:13

is still sitting across

1:12:15

from it right now. I do you think

1:12:17

people learn something there? Well,

1:12:20

I'll say that I think people will learn what voices

1:12:23

at you. As it's the current one. I

1:12:25

will say that people will learn about you

1:12:28

as a person. And

1:12:30

I want to say that I did, as I said

1:12:32

in the intro that we did record, I did learn

1:12:34

a little bit about you myself. Well, I appreciate

1:12:37

that. If you'd like to learn more about the podcast, you

1:12:39

can do so at talk easypod

1:12:41

dot com. As always, the show

1:12:43

is executive produced by David chen Graphics

1:12:46

by Ian Jones, designed by

1:12:48

Ian Chang, illustrations by

1:12:50

Krishna Chenoe. Our social

1:12:52

media is by Nicki Spina. Our

1:12:55

intern is Goni Zor.

1:12:57

Our music is by Dylan Peck and Jin

1:13:00

Sang. Our associate producer

1:13:02

is Caroline Reebok, and the show

1:13:04

is produced by Neil Innes Harrison.

1:13:07

I thank you so much for interviewing me. Well. Upcoming

1:13:09

this fall Randall Park, Gloria's

1:13:11

Dynam Edward Norton, Laura Dern. Next

1:13:13

week is Gary Goldman. We

1:13:16

have so many wonderful people coming up. Uh

1:13:19

and and and really the most

1:13:21

wonderful is going to play us out. Curtis

1:13:23

Mayfield. Oh God, I

1:13:25

love you, sir, rest in peace. I love you, Sama,

1:13:28

I love you Harrison. Thank you for doing it, I

1:13:38

guess and I always feel the

1:13:40

same. Love

1:13:42

is strange, Oh

1:13:46

p, I

1:13:50

wouldn't have any other way.

1:13:54

Small has been a day

1:13:58

spend yours.

1:14:02

I love you. I can't

1:14:04

remember. Oh

1:14:07

christious, Molly you

1:14:14

got the baby hoc Oh

1:14:19

well, always

1:14:22

long time friend.

1:14:26

When love

1:14:29

skin we

1:14:33

pad lot go with me time.

1:14:37

I don't