0:15

Pushkin. Part

0:24

of the power and almost a pernicious

0:26

part of the power of a father's

0:28

influence on his son, or at least my dad's influence

0:31

on me, is that

0:33

the drive to do better never

0:35

recedes. It is just a NonStop

0:39

part of my consciousness. So

0:42

there's never a victory

0:44

achieved banner that I can

0:46

stand in front of. It's never done. And

0:49

it's from the public part of life, running

0:51

for office or holding office, and

0:54

it's the private part of life

0:56

making that run every single morning to stay

0:58

in shape and engaged and alive

1:00

and vital. That

1:04

was betto Or Rourke. I'm San

1:07

Fragoso and this is Talk

1:09

Easy. Welcome

1:11

to the show. Hey

1:34

everyone, I hope you're safe, sheltered

1:37

and self isolated in this time. I

1:40

am currently recording this intro from

1:42

inside a closet, and

1:45

yes, it feels as silly

1:47

as it sounds, but on a positive

1:49

note, we have been doing this podcast

1:52

almost to the date for four years

1:54

now, and in our

1:56

run of doing one hundred and sixty plus

1:58

episodes, we have had a grand

2:01

total of zero politicians

2:03

on this program. And it's

2:05

not for a lack of trying. By the way, let me be

2:08

clear, we have tried, We have called,

2:10

we have emailed, we have begged and pleaded. I

2:13

think even once I busted out the typewriter

2:16

for a heartfelt letter. This

2:18

is a roundabout way of saying that I am

2:21

honored and humbled to him on Beta

2:23

or work today. As you may remember,

2:25

he was a twenty twenty presidential candidate

2:28

for the Democratic Party after narrowly

2:31

losing this historic Senate race

2:33

against Ted Cruz down in Texas.

2:36

Before that, he was a congressman from Texas's

2:38

sixteenth district. I

2:40

imagine many of you listening know all

2:43

this information, so let

2:45

me give you some backstory. This episode

2:47

was really a couple of years in the making. In

2:50

twenty eighteen, I directed this short

2:52

film about my grandfather, Sebastian,

2:54

who immigrated from Mexico to

2:57

America in nineteen forty eight. This

3:00

film came on the heels of President Trump

3:03

suggesting some of the Mexicans coming to

3:05

this country were criminals and rapists.

3:08

This came after his rampant xenophobia,

3:10

and most importantly, this came

3:12

after his insistence on building

3:15

a wall that Mexico would be paying

3:17

for. In case you're still

3:19

wondering, Mexico did

3:21

not pay for that wall. The

3:24

film I made was actually more personal

3:26

than political, but sometimes

3:29

the politic finds you. And

3:32

ultimately, after sending Sebastian

3:34

his way, Betto found me

3:36

and my grandfather's story, he

3:39

was encouraging and generous about the project.

3:42

And this speaks to the kind of person

3:45

I believe Betto to be. Whether

3:47

you disagree with his politics or not, he

3:50

is someone in this circus for

3:53

the right reasons. He's in it

3:55

for people, and I mean all people,

3:57

by the way, even those who vehemently

3:59

disagree with him. He has

4:02

this uncanny ability to listen

4:04

to anyone willing to engage with him.

4:07

And I got to say, whether you're a politician

4:09

or not, that is a quality I

4:11

admire in someone. So this

4:14

is a special episode for me and for this podcast,

4:17

and I hope as we collectively take stock

4:19

of our lives in the weeks and months

4:21

ahead, that this conversation

4:24

helps you ask some of those

4:26

big questions I know we're batting around. Or

4:29

maybe this talk just makes you feel a

4:32

little less bored, a little

4:34

less alone. Whatever it does,

4:37

I thank you for being here and

4:40

making us part of your week. Now

4:43

here is Betto or work. Betto

4:56

thank you so much for being here. As

4:59

you know, I do some research for these podcasts,

5:02

and right before we started recording,

5:04

I noticed online that

5:07

you launched your presidential campaign

5:10

almost exactly a year ago

5:12

to the date. Does

5:14

it feel like a year ago? It

5:16

doesn't it. I saw that on Twitter

5:19

yesterday. Somebody said, I think yesterday

5:21

it was a year to the day that we officially

5:24

kicked it off in El Paso, in

5:27

Houston, and in Austin on the same date.

5:29

We did big events in those three cities,

5:33

and it was hard to believe. It feels like

5:35

a lifetime ago. I

5:37

was in a different place, the country

5:40

was in a different place, you know, our

5:42

family was in a different place, and

5:45

the actual presidential campaign itself

5:48

felt in some way so

5:50

long. I mean, in the most meaningful

5:52

way. It was over far too

5:54

quickly, but in

5:56

terms of the work and

5:58

the effort and the strain and

6:02

everything that was involved in

6:04

running that campaign, it felt

6:06

like forever. And so that might be why

6:09

it feels like it happened so

6:11

long ago. So no, it's really hard for

6:13

me to get my head around that.

6:15

That really does feel like a lifetime

6:17

ago. Granted, I think

6:20

two weeks feels like two years

6:22

right about now. So while we're

6:24

here talking and reflecting

6:26

in this quarantine, I wanted

6:29

to start back in nineteen eighty

6:31

seven, at the time you were fourteen

6:33

years old and desperate to leave

6:36

El Paso, Texas. There's

6:38

this quote where you said I wanted out. I

6:41

wanted out of the house and away from

6:43

him and his shadow, the him

6:45

being your father, Pat O'Rourke. What

6:48

did your teenage self look like at

6:51

that time? It wasn't necessarily

6:54

a pretty sight. So I was this

6:58

extremely awkward, tall,

7:01

skinny, gangly kid who

7:04

did not necessarily fit

7:07

into the social ructures

7:09

that were in place in El Paso

7:11

or at al Paso High or with the

7:13

group of friends that I've been hanging out with since

7:16

elementary school at Messita.

7:19

I was somewhat athletic in that I was

7:21

a runner, was on the cross

7:23

country team. I was absolutely

7:25

unathletic in that I tried to play

7:28

basketball and was on the eighth grade Al Passo High

7:30

basketball team and was just the worst basketball

7:33

player that you've ever seen, despite

7:35

my height and the potential that the coaches

7:38

kept trying to see in me.

7:40

Just an absolute waste of height right

7:42

there. And my

7:45

kids, all of whom are

7:47

so much better at basketball than I ever

7:49

was, And certainly that I am now can confirm

7:52

that I did not lose that awkwardness

7:55

on the court. I just I just don't

7:57

have it. So there was also

7:59

the social changes taking place, you know,

8:01

as you grow up

8:03

and people start

8:05

to party, and in al Paso it was

8:08

an interesting dynamics. Everybody crosses the

8:10

border to go party in see

8:12

that Hawadi is where there is functionally at

8:14

least there wasn't at the time a drinking

8:16

age. So you're fourteen, you're fifteen,

8:18

you're sixteen years old, and you

8:21

know you're drinking beer and hanging

8:24

out with girls and boys. And I

8:27

just could not get into that at

8:29

all, And in fact, I went exactly

8:32

the opposite direction. I got really into

8:35

this kind of straight edge scene, ordered

8:38

records out of a catalog of Minor

8:40

Threat and seven Seconds

8:43

and these other hardcore

8:46

straight edge bands, which made me

8:48

feel a little bit less alone and a

8:50

little less weird. And

8:52

when I discovered there was a punk rock

8:55

scene in El Paso where

8:57

there were other kids who were seemingly as weird

8:59

and strange and as fucked up

9:02

as as I was, I

9:04

suddenly felt like I was at home where

9:06

there was a community that I could be a

9:09

part of. And I cannot tell you how

9:11

extraordinary that feeling and that experience

9:13

was to be, you

9:16

know, kind of isolated and feeling like I

9:18

completely did not fit in,

9:20

so awkward and kind of alone, to

9:23

be accepted into this group

9:25

of other misfits who, by the

9:27

way, beyond the social dynamic of

9:30

these punk rock shows

9:32

and gatherings, there were people my age

9:35

who were making music. They

9:37

were writing their own songs, and

9:39

they were pressing their own records, and they were

9:41

starting their own labels, and they were booking their own

9:43

tours, and it was incredibly

9:47

heady stuff, like holy shit,

9:49

like they found the keys. You

9:52

don't just have to take

9:54

what's given to you. You don't have to play the role

9:57

that's been assigned to you. You don't have to

9:59

listen to the commercial stuff,

10:02

the safe stuff coming off the radio

10:04

or passing through your TV. There's

10:07

this whole underside to

10:10

life that's absolutely beautiful

10:12

and it's not safe, and it's

10:14

not sanitized, and your parents

10:17

would not approve, and it's incredibly

10:19

exciting and interesting. And so that

10:21

was a big moment for me growing

10:24

up in El Paso. You know, when

10:27

you go to Woodberry Forest School,

10:29

which is a boarding school in Virginia,

10:31

you have a yearbook page, as we all do.

10:34

And do you remember the quote

10:37

you had from the band Writes of Spring in

10:40

your yearbook page? I kind of

10:42

do. I remember that I quoted Writes a Spring.

10:44

I haven't seen it since nineteen ninety

10:46

one, but you you read it to me? Okay.

10:49

The lyric is I found a hidden wheel

10:51

and it rolls to reveal that I'm the angry

10:54

son. I'm the angry son. Can

10:57

ask you what were you angry

10:59

about? Well,

11:03

first of all, I'm eighteen years old,

11:05

so everything, yeah,

11:07

so everything, you know, my parents,

11:10

society, Ronald Reagan, the

11:13

direction that this country is taking.

11:16

I had done this independent study class

11:18

at Woodburry Forest, which was

11:21

amazing. I had the faculty

11:23

and staff and teachers were

11:26

life saving and life changing for

11:29

me. Though the environment at the school

11:32

was, you know, in some ways almost life ending.

11:34

And I don't mean that literally, but here

11:37

I was in a

11:39

all boys school deep

11:41

in the South where for

11:43

some the Confederacy never ended,

11:47

feeling more awkward and estrange

11:49

than I ever did at Al Paso High

11:52

or in Al Paso. But these teachers

11:54

and faculty and the staff, they're unlocked

11:57

whole new worlds for me. And there's this one who

11:59

led me an independent study of

12:02

the CIA overthrow of

12:05

the legitimately elected Guatemalan

12:08

administration of hucobe Are Benz

12:10

Guzman in the nineteen

12:12

fifties, and discovering that

12:14

that we, for the interests of the United

12:17

Fruit Company and the dullest brothers and

12:20

our desire, our paranoid desire

12:22

to contain or defend the Western Hemisphere

12:25

against communism, overthrow this government

12:27

and sent that country into a shit spiral

12:30

that they have not yet recovered

12:32

from. That pissed me off. I

12:34

subscribe to the Washington Post, read that every

12:37

day. That made me angry.

12:39

It was listening to punk rock records. Hadn't

12:41

figured out my relationship with my dad, who was

12:44

just incredibly amazing,

12:46

gregarious and yet in our

12:48

home, overbearing figure

12:51

who set such high standards

12:54

and expectations for me and my

12:56

sisters that were really hard

12:58

to achieve, and I

13:00

think bred a lot of resentment. You

13:03

know that, and the fact that Writes

13:05

a Spring were my favorite band and

13:08

I love that song so much. I'll all

13:10

hit home and produced that yearbook

13:12

page that you just quoted from. Did your

13:14

dad know that your relationship

13:17

with him was not

13:20

totally healthy? Yeah,

13:23

you know, I've gone back and I've thought about our relationship.

13:26

And you mentioned time at

13:28

home can produce an

13:30

opportunity for self reflection and going

13:32

through you know, these boxes

13:34

of photographs and letters

13:37

and journal entries, and some of them

13:39

are letters from my dad, and

13:41

some of them are letters he wrote to me when

13:43

I was at this boarding school in Virginia where I sought

13:45

to escape him and

13:48

you know, maybe find something new in

13:50

life. And I can tell them the letters they're

13:52

they're all very brief, They're never longer than

13:55

a page. That he loves

13:57

me, that he's thinking about me, that's

13:59

probably worried about me. You

14:01

know, if I thought I was strange and

14:03

a little bit of a weirdo or a lot of a weirdo,

14:06

I guarantee you my dad did and could

14:08

not comprehend me or what I

14:10

was into or why I was so pissed

14:13

off. But he's trying. He's

14:15

trying to connect and he

14:17

would continue to try. And what's

14:20

really beautiful about our relationship

14:22

is that as difficult

14:24

as it was for a very long

14:26

time, and as strange as we had become.

14:29

When I moved back to Olpasso in

14:31

the late nineties, I

14:34

established a completely different and much

14:36

more positive relationship with him as

14:39

adults, almost friends in some

14:41

way. We'd go backpacking

14:44

in the Heilo Wilderness together, we'd drink

14:46

at the Cincinnati club bar, we'd

14:49

laugh about stuff. And the night before he died,

14:52

for some reason, my sisters

14:55

were out of the house with my mom,

14:57

so it's just my dad and me, and

15:00

we were eating leftovers out of the fridge, sitting

15:03

in the backyard, drinking a bottle

15:05

of wine together, and we had one of the

15:07

best conversations I've

15:09

ever had with him, or any human being for

15:11

that matter, for hours, and we just talked

15:14

and connected and wondered about

15:17

the universe and the stars above and

15:19

the trajectories that our lives would take. And

15:23

in some ways, it is more

15:25

than I could have asked for if

15:28

he was going to die, to have this reconnection

15:31

with him and to just

15:33

be with him in that way, which

15:36

we had not been able to do for more

15:38

than a decade before that. So that's

15:40

a very special memory for me. Three

15:43

years before you have that conversation with

15:46

your father, you move back to El Paso.

15:49

You're twenty five at the time, working

15:51

at your mother's furniture shop. Of

15:53

that period, your mom said this of you. He

15:56

stuck it out for a year, but he

15:58

was absolutely miserable. Does

16:01

that sound about right? Oh, my god. It was

16:03

the most miserable year

16:05

of my life. So

16:08

I'd been in New York for the

16:11

previous eight years, going to

16:13

school and then living in Brooklyn with

16:15

friends and working in Manhattan,

16:17

and then for a little while for a publisher in the Bronx

16:20

and playing music at night and

16:23

playing in bars and really just

16:25

having the time of my life. Something

16:29

had called me back to El Paso,

16:31

called me back to Texas. In the immediate

16:33

term, my grandfather was

16:36

dying and I knew I could be helpful

16:38

in taking care of him at my grandparents

16:40

house, which I did, but

16:43

I didn't expect to stay for long. And

16:46

I started working for my mom at Charlotte's

16:48

Furniture, helping to manage the warehouse,

16:51

and just something I really did not

16:53

have the slightest interest. And I wanted

16:56

to be a writer. That's why I'd worked at a publishing

16:58

company. I wanted to

17:00

create things, and

17:02

this just seemed to me like the antithesis

17:05

of every childhood dream

17:07

and every dream i'd had a young adult

17:09

about what I was going to do in my life. Last thing you want

17:11

to do is come back home and work

17:14

for your parents. But thankfully, in

17:16

hindsight, my mom took pity on me, offered

17:19

me the job, and a

17:21

few months into it, maybe a month into it,

17:24

in fact, it was the night of my birthday. I'd

17:26

been out at the Cincinnati club with my dad,

17:28

had gone home, had reached

17:31

out to this girl that I was interested in Las

17:33

Crucis gone and picked her up, drank

17:35

way too much, and got

17:38

arrested for driving under the influence,

17:40

which I should have been arrested for because

17:42

it was the stupidest fucking thing I've ever

17:44

done in my life. But can I ask

17:46

you, yeah, in the moment, did

17:49

you think it was stupid? Because I hear

17:52

you telling me this, and I'm like, you know, I'll

17:54

be honest, I've done the exact

17:57

same thing to you. Did

17:59

I've done it, And I'm sure many people listening

18:02

have done that once or twice, or maybe more than

18:04

once or twice. In the moment,

18:06

did it feel dumb? No,

18:08

not at all. I mean, in the moment, I probably

18:10

didn't think anything, and

18:13

in the moment, I felt wonderful.

18:16

It was my birthday. I had finally

18:19

connected with a group of friends, and I'll pass so some

18:21

of whom I'd gone to, I'll pass so high with. There

18:23

was this young woman who I was just crazy

18:26

about, who had come

18:28

out with me that night. And I'm

18:31

at a bar and folks are buying

18:33

me drinks because it's my birthday. So now I was feeling

18:36

I was feeling great. It was just and

18:38

in hindsight, not only should

18:41

I have stopped myself, but you know, wish that

18:43

there had been someone who had intervened him, and like,

18:45

this guy is way too loaded

18:47

to go out and drive a car. But

18:50

luckily no one was hurt. I

18:52

spent a night in jail. You're

18:55

then on probation, and one of the conditions

18:58

of my probation was to not

19:01

only go to kind of a class

19:03

to learn how not to drink and not

19:05

to drink your responsibly, but you also

19:08

have an ability to drive

19:10

a car anymore for a set period

19:12

of time. I don't know if it was a year or longer.

19:15

And so riding the bus every day

19:18

and the bus in El

19:21

Paso is different than the bus or the subway

19:23

in New York, or the bus or the subway in

19:25

many other urban parts of the country back

19:27

in nineteen ninety eight. It basically doesn't

19:30

work. There's no guarantee that it's going to get

19:32

you there on time. You have to

19:34

walk probably a half mile

19:37

to get to the bus stop, all

19:39

of which is fine, but in

19:41

my self pitying, pathetic

19:43

state, as a twenty six year old

19:46

guy working for his mom in the

19:48

warehouse of the furniture store, not

19:51

able to understand what the hell I'm going to do

19:53

with my life, it was the depth

19:55

of misery to take that bus into the job

19:58

to go do something I didn't like, to wait

20:00

for the bus that might come every hour to

20:03

ride that back home. But I'll tell

20:05

you what it did, Sam. It kicked me in

20:07

the fucking ass, and it made me

20:09

realize that I couldn't

20:11

let things happen to me. I couldn't

20:13

expect things to happen for me. There

20:16

was nothing that was going to come my way unless

20:18

I was intentionally

20:21

seeking it out and then doing the hard work

20:23

to make it happen. And so what came out of that

20:26

within the year I started a small

20:29

business and internet services

20:31

and website development and online

20:33

software business. And then I also,

20:36

perhaps just as a more importantly, started

20:39

an online newspaper in El Paso,

20:41

Texas in nineteen ninety eight

20:43

that took a very deep look

20:46

at city politics, arts

20:48

and culture, and the binational relationship

20:50

between El Paso and see That Quadez.

20:53

And within a few years that

20:55

company would employ more than twenty

20:57

people, that newspaper

20:59

would be a print publication, and

21:02

my life would take a seriously different

21:05

turn. But in some way I had

21:07

to hit that what was from me a rock

21:09

bottom. For others

21:11

that might not be even close to what they've

21:14

seen when they've bottomed out, But for me, that's

21:16

what it took. So yes, it was a miserable

21:19

year, but it produced some really

21:21

beautiful positive things down the road. An

21:24

old friend of yours named Kate Gannon said he

21:26

came back to El Paso and

21:28

realized he was hire a parent to Pat

21:31

and not just that kid. Did

21:35

it feel like time

21:37

for you to graduate and to being

21:40

the kind of man your father wanted you to be.

21:43

I can't overstate how

21:46

big of an influence my dad had on me,

21:50

nor could I overstate how

21:52

dominant he was in this

21:54

community. He had been the El

21:56

Paso County judge before that,

21:58

an El Paso County commissioner, but

22:01

maybe even more importantly, just a very

22:04

visible public figure

22:07

in our cities. You

22:10

know, the policies that we adopted,

22:12

the direction that we took. But he

22:14

was also this gregarious Irish

22:17

politician who is going

22:20

to Jackson's for drinks

22:22

at lunch, the Cincinnati Club for a

22:25

glass of wine after work, is

22:27

at every campaign event

22:29

election party, is mentoring

22:32

young up and coming civic leaders,

22:35

and is a trusted voice

22:37

and counsel for those who are trying

22:39

to figure out what they're doing. And that's current

22:41

elected leaders who call on him. So

22:44

you could not go anywhere with pad O Rourke where

22:47

he would not be recognized, where someone

22:49

wouldn't want to come up and ask

22:51

his advice. You couldn't

22:53

go anywhere where someone

22:56

wouldn't come up and tell me that my dad is

22:58

their best friend and that they

23:00

love the guy. I mean, his magnetism,

23:03

his charisma, his charm

23:06

was immediate and inexplicable.

23:09

I mean beyond he's a very smart guy, very

23:12

funny guy, amazing smile,

23:14

good looking guy. But beyond all

23:16

of that, he just had this magical

23:19

connection with people. So

23:22

yeah, that was part of the dynamic.

23:25

When I came back to El Pass, I was definitely Pat

23:28

or Rourke's kid. Didn't matter

23:30

if I was twenty five or twenty six years old.

23:32

I was. I was always going to be his son, and

23:35

to some degree I was okay with that. I again,

23:37

as an adult, began to establish

23:39

a different, far more positive relationship

23:42

with him, began to appreciate what

23:45

he had done and really proud of who

23:47

he was in the position that he held

23:50

in our community, even though he didn't hold

23:53

elected office. And I think in some

23:55

ways I'd kind of resigned myself to

23:57

never really growing out

24:00

from under that, and I was in some ways

24:02

okay with that, as strange as that sounds.

24:04

So I mentioned to you that we started those

24:06

businesses, the website and internet

24:09

technology business and the newspaper.

24:11

He was at my side

24:14

for both of those, giving advice,

24:17

providing connections. Hey, you should call so and so

24:19

and tell him what you're doing. I bet they would be really

24:21

excited. I couldn't get a loan from a bank, and

24:24

he went and got a personal loan from

24:26

the bank, and then lent that to me

24:29

twenty thousand bucks to get this started,

24:32

and he himself was constantly

24:34

flirting with bankruptcy. He'd

24:37

started a business that had been unsuccessful.

24:39

You mentioned that he had unsuccessfully run for

24:42

elected office, So it wasn't as though in

24:44

his personal life he was you

24:46

know, successful financially

24:49

or you know, electorally. But

24:51

he was devoted to me and to

24:53

my sisters. Wanted us to be successful.

24:56

And I loved that, and I loved having him

24:58

as a partner and as a friend and as

25:01

a confidant. And that was the kind

25:03

of relationship we had when unfortunately

25:05

he was killed. In the morning your father died,

25:08

You are working, you

25:11

get a call from your mom. What

25:14

do you remember about that morning. I

25:17

remember being at work in downtown

25:19

Ol Paso and getting a

25:21

call from my mom, and

25:24

I just knew the

25:26

second she started speaking that something was

25:28

wrong. It could have been the pause

25:30

between when I answered and when

25:34

she said the first word, it

25:37

could have been the tone in her voice, but but right away

25:39

I knew something was wrong.

25:41

And I think she

25:44

she said something like, there's been an accident.

25:47

Dad is hurt, and I knew that

25:49

he was dead. And I can't remember

25:52

now if I asked her that on

25:54

the phone, and it might be that she

25:56

said, just come to my office. You

25:59

know, it's probably a twenty

26:01

minute drive away at the store, and

26:05

drove to

26:07

go see her and to be with her. So that's

26:11

that's what I remember of it. It's

26:14

hard recounting it. Yeah,

26:17

yeah, and we u he

26:20

had been killed in New Mexico,

26:22

right on the state line with Texas. We

26:25

live in this tri state area where New Mexico,

26:27

Texas, and Chihuahua, Mexico all

26:30

meet. He was on the New Mexico side,

26:33

and so we had to go to a

26:35

hospital in

26:38

Las Cruces, New Mexico, and there

26:40

was a room

26:42

where they keep dead bodies, and

26:45

I had to go in and identify his body.

26:48

And that

26:51

that is almost hard for me to remember. I'm

26:53

trying to actively place

26:55

myself there nineteen

26:57

years ago, and

27:00

and I can't. I can't totally remember

27:03

that, but I'll tell you this. I do remember driving

27:05

back to al Paso with my mom, with

27:08

my sister Charlotte

27:11

and her husband Eric, and

27:15

and somehow having this sense of

27:17

my dad's presence and

27:20

in a really strong way, like not

27:23

I remember him really well, but

27:25

but he is he's here right

27:27

now, and he's watching me, and

27:29

he's with me right now, And

27:32

would have that often on

27:34

for the next few weeks. Maybe not

27:36

unusual for someone

27:39

who's lost somebody very close

27:41

to them. And

27:43

now, nineteen years later, I would tell

27:45

you there's probably not a day that doesn't go by

27:48

where he is not in

27:50

some way present in my mind or in my

27:52

life in a decision i'm making,

27:55

in something I'm thinking about, something that will

27:57

remind me of him, in a

27:59

dream that I have, And

28:02

even if I can't remember those those details,

28:05

his memory is very much alive

28:07

in me. That day your father died,

28:10

you talked to the El Paso Times and

28:12

you said you

28:15

admired your father for fighting

28:17

some battles that were unwinnable.

28:22

And I was thinking about that quote, and

28:25

then I started thinking about that quote for you.

28:29

In the past couple of years. Did

28:32

you feel like some of this was unwinnable

28:34

for you? I never did. I

28:37

never knew that I would win, and in

28:39

some ways, in fact, in the best of

28:42

moments on the campaign, I felt like there was

28:44

nothing to lose. I remember when my

28:46

wife, Amy and I decided that we'd run

28:48

for US Senate This was maybe

28:51

late in twenty sixteen, early

28:53

in twenty seventeen for a November twenty eighteen

28:56

election, And I

28:58

really think my wife's words were

29:02

fuck it, meaning

29:05

what do you have to lose? Like

29:08

nobody knows who you are. You're this unknown

29:11

West Texas congressman with probably

29:13

one or two percent name recognition across

29:16

the state of Texas. You'd be going up

29:18

against the runner up to Donald

29:20

Trump in the Republican presidential primary

29:22

in twenty sixteen, a rock

29:25

star in Republican

29:28

circles, a hot

29:30

shot first term Republican

29:32

US Senator Ted Cruz who has

29:34

an almost cult like following amongst

29:37

his most die hard fans.

29:41

Let's do it, and that spirit

29:45

felt very much like Paddle Rourke very

29:47

much that just fuck it, Let's go

29:50

do this, and don't

29:52

tell me the odds, don't tell me

29:54

whether I'm supposed to do this, don't tell me how I'm supposed

29:56

to do this. I'm just going to go out there and

29:59

do this. And the

30:02

best of the Texas Senate campaign, which was

30:04

a fucking extraordinary experience

30:07

to be a part of, with tens

30:10

of thousands of volunteers

30:12

and supporters, and go into all two hundred and fifty

30:14

four counties and not knowing what the fuck we

30:16

were doing for most of

30:18

it, being too dumb to know that

30:21

you shouldn't run against Ted Cruz, that

30:23

you shouldn't run as a Democrat in a state

30:25

that hasn't elected a Democrat to

30:27

the United States Senate since nineteen eighty

30:29

eight. Just it felt

30:31

like Pat Rourke. It felt like punk rock. It

30:34

felt so good. Not that

30:36

it wasn't hard and excruciating

30:38

and terrifying at times,

30:41

because it was all of those things as well.

30:44

But I never once thought that

30:47

I couldn't win. It

30:49

was more a function of having nothing

30:51

to lose. And there was a very different

30:54

dynamic in the presidential campaign

30:56

where we were a

31:00

presumptive, if not the front runner,

31:02

then a potential front

31:05

runner, where we were able

31:07

to command and widespread

31:10

name recognition, very high

31:13

expectations, great number

31:15

of donations, at least at the outset,

31:19

and in some ways it

31:22

came at the expense of fuck

31:25

it and nothing to lose,

31:28

and they'll never see us coming. They

31:31

saw us coming from a mile away

31:34

in that race. And yet despite

31:37

the start and the

31:39

slog through the middle of that and the

31:42

finish, that was so different

31:44

than what I had hoped for and what we had all

31:47

worked for. That too,

31:49

was an extraordinary experience, one that I'm

31:51

very, very lucky to have

31:54

been a part of, and one which at no time

31:56

did I think we're going to lose this thing.

31:59

Didn't know if we were going to win right, knew

32:01

that we could, knew that it was possible,

32:04

knew that there were some things under our control, some things

32:06

absolutely out of our control. But

32:09

I would never put

32:11

myself from my family or ask volunteers

32:15

in team members to go into something

32:17

if I didn't think that we could win it. You

32:19

know, after that Senate run,

32:22

which was historic, there

32:25

was such an enthusiasm for

32:27

you and your political future.

32:30

And there's this three month period

32:34

that I'm curious about where you're on the road

32:36

and you're traveling, you're

32:39

writing these dispatches that

32:41

your wife Amy is editing and putting

32:43

up. I loved reading

32:45

those, and then you're

32:48

on the cover of Vanity Fair. There

32:50

is an interview with Oprah which is insane.

32:53

There's an HBO documentary that comes

32:56

out a month later. All these

32:58

things coalesce around the

33:00

announcement that you were running for president, and

33:03

you're right saying that people saw

33:05

it coming from a mile away. I

33:07

think everyone kind of felt you were going to

33:09

do this. I'm

33:12

curious now that we're like a year removed,

33:15

and this is not MPR, this is not the

33:17

New York Times where like you're

33:19

in a basement, I'm in a closet, like

33:23

I just I'm as just two fucking

33:25

people. I just want to know, was

33:29

it painful to see some

33:32

of that enthusiasm turn into something

33:34

else the moment you announced?

33:37

Yes, it was. And one

33:42

of the reasons that we gave ourselves

33:44

for not running for president because it was not an easy

33:47

decision, not one that we made right

33:49

away, in fact, one that we made very late

33:52

in the process, one that I

33:54

would never advise anyone

33:56

to make in that way. You know presidential

33:59

campaigns that they are these massive

34:02

undertakings where you're going to

34:04

raise and spend tens

34:07

hundreds of millions of dollars. You're

34:09

successful, you'll have hundreds

34:11

then thousands of people on your staff,

34:14

and you're running to connect with

34:17

voters in a country of three hundred and thirty

34:19

million people. I mean, we made

34:21

that decision in such a short timeframe,

34:24

unable to fully

34:27

think through what would be involved in running

34:29

that campaign, what our strategy would

34:32

be to anticipate

34:34

everything that was going to come our

34:37

way. I remember being asked

34:40

in the Senate campaign, and even immediately after

34:42

the Senate campaign was over, would you run for

34:44

president? Hell no, absolutely

34:46

not. Never go through anything like

34:49

this again. My family doesn't want to go through anything

34:52

like this again. You said I will not be

34:54

running for president in twenty twenty. That's

34:57

about as definitive as those statements get.

35:00

And I knew it, and I knew it to

35:02

my core. And then you start

35:04

to think about, you know why you ran

35:06

in the first place, what's happening in this

35:08

country, the fact that you have kids

35:11

in cages, that you've got

35:15

a president who is completely out

35:17

of control, undermining the constitution, imperiling

35:19

the republic, maybe forever

35:22

ending any future we have as

35:25

a democracy. I think

35:27

about that challenge, and I think about

35:30

the extraordinary campaign, comprised

35:32

of all these amazing people who,

35:35

in this beautiful, grassroots,

35:37

punk rock fashion, almost

35:40

brought a sitting senator to his knees

35:42

in a state where no Democrat was

35:44

ever given a snowball's chance.

35:48

Is there a way to

35:50

employ this to

35:53

help save this country, to help defeat

35:55

the sitting president in a way that no

35:57

one would ever expect or see coming

36:00

namely through Texas in our thirty

36:02

eight electoral College votes.

36:05

That was the thinking, the magic

36:08

that we got to be a part of an I won't say the magic

36:10

was me, nor did I produce it, but

36:12

I certainly got to be a part of

36:14

it. Could we help recreate

36:17

some of that? Do it instead of a statewide

36:20

on a statewide basis, do it nationally

36:22

and have the same ethics and values

36:25

and purpose that we brought

36:28

to that Senate campaign. Well,

36:31

we obviously were unable to

36:33

do that. I mean, there were aspects of it that matched

36:36

some of the magic, and there were aspects

36:39

of it that fell far short

36:41

of that. But I'll tell you, in recounting

36:43

these two campaigns to you on the

36:46

first times that I've really thought this through, because

36:48

it's in some part these these memories

36:50

are too big or

36:53

too profound, or too painful, you

36:56

know, to wrestle with. But running

36:59

that Senate campaign as a nobody,

37:02

and starting in the westernmost of

37:04

two hundred and fifty four counties and then

37:06

visiting the other two hundred and fifty three

37:09

one at a time over the course of

37:12

two years, logging thousands upon

37:14

thousands of miles and

37:17

and meeting hundreds of thousands of

37:20

people. That's the way to do it. And

37:23

what you just mentioned, and

37:25

these are all choices that I made, accepting invitations

37:28

offered by others. Oprah

37:30

Vanity Fair, the documentary

37:32

that was made of the Senate campaign that premiered

37:35

and then was streamed on HBO.

37:38

You just couldn't run a campaign in

37:40

that way. You couldn't show up disarmed

37:44

and meet people disarmed. Obviously

37:47

not speaking literally, but speaking

37:49

figuratively of the nobody from El Paso

37:52

in the Senate campaign who just came

37:54

to listen to you, to hear you, to understand

37:57

you, to reflect back what he had learned as

37:59

he traveled the rest of the state, and

38:01

to build a campaign truly comprised

38:04

of the people of Texas. We

38:06

didn't have the time. We had

38:09

had a different scale and scope with

38:11

which to contend, and we

38:13

were this thing, this big

38:15

thing. Here comes betto watch

38:18

out. He's this superstar out

38:20

of Texas and let

38:22

him blow your mind. And that's not at

38:24

all who I am or the campaign

38:26

that I want to run. And in fact, at the outset

38:29

I tried to do my best to run the

38:31

Texas campaign in Iowa. I just wanted to go to every

38:34

county in Iowa. I wanted to

38:36

show up, I wanted to listen to people, and

38:38

I wanted to have real conversations with him. Only

38:40

the problem was when we started

38:42

the Texas campaign, it was literally just me

38:44

in the beginning, Literally it was me in

38:47

a rental car by myself, going

38:49

from town to town before we started to pick up volunteers

38:52

and staff. In this one, not

38:54

only do I have two people on

38:56

my team who accompany me, there are literally

38:59

twenty thirty sometimes forty

39:01

members of the press who

39:03

are with us. In some cases, the press would

39:06

outnumber the number of people who could

39:08

fit into a bar or

39:10

a cafe or a diner where

39:12

we were holding the event. And

39:15

it was just incredibly difficult

39:18

to run the campaign that I wanted to. And

39:21

my decision mine alone to

39:23

essentially ignore the national press

39:25

because I was like, you know, I

39:27

just want to listen to people in Iowa. I just want

39:29

to talk to the people in Iowa and in New Hampshire

39:32

and in Nevada and in South Carolina, in these

39:34

other states that we were traveling to. I don't want to talk

39:36

to the anchors on MSNBC

39:38

or CNN. I don't want to talk to a national audience.

39:41

I want to run this punk rock. I want to run this out

39:43

of the van. You just couldn't do that,

39:45

and in some ways you ended up getting

39:48

the worst of both worlds. You had the national

39:50

press pissed off and then ultimately

39:53

I would say vindictive until

39:55

we were able to turn that around by late

39:58

summer. You had small

40:00

towns where I'm showing up

40:02

like as the thing

40:05

with the entourage, even though I didn't invite all the

40:07

press there. It just it was really hard

40:09

to get the rhythm and the flow and

40:12

the campaign the way that I wanted it to be and the way

40:14

that it it had been so successful in

40:17

Texas. And you know why did that

40:19

happen? It all came back to I think

40:21

decisions that I made. This is

40:23

all notwithstanding an extraordinary

40:26

team and amazing volunteers

40:28

who killed themselves, worked their asses

40:30

off for us. It's almost

40:32

as though, from the set of circumstances

40:35

that you described and I'm describing, it

40:37

just could not be. But

40:39

to your original questions, I think that we could

40:42

win. Yes I did, or I wouldn't have done

40:44

it. I saw you on the debate stage,

40:46

and I think everyone watching,

40:48

you know, is surveying the candidates

40:50

and seeing how they hold up.

40:53

And this is something that I noticed

40:55

when you were debating Ted Cruz in

40:58

the Senate run. I rewatched that debate two

41:00

days ago. And what's

41:03

fascinating about the national

41:05

debate against you know, Bernie

41:08

and Elizabeth Warren and Kamala

41:10

Harris and Corey Book are all these people very smart,

41:13

very tactical. Ted Cruz

41:16

exceptionally tactical, sometimes

41:19

almost nasty, let's be honest,

41:21

sometimes very nasty, right you,

41:25

No matter what, we're unflappable

41:27

in this way. You were unwilling

41:31

to deploy opposition

41:33

research. I'm

41:35

curious would you do that differently?

41:38

Now? Yeah, I don't. I don't know that

41:41

I would change that aspect

41:43

of how I debated Ted Cruz or how I

41:45

debated the rest of the Democratic

41:47

presidential field. You're

41:49

certainly armed with a shit

41:52

ton of opposition research. You

41:55

know, here's this vote that Bernie Sanders took

41:57

in you know, nineteen ninety two. Here's

41:59

this thing that Elizabeth Warren did ten

42:02

years ago. Did you know this about Pete Buddha

42:04

Jedge? He says, this, but he's really that

42:07

none of that stuff felt right. The

42:09

real challenge, the real

42:11

enemy being Donald Trump

42:14

in an extraordinary, unparalleled

42:16

threat to this country. To

42:21

try to chip away at

42:25

these other Democrats, especially for shit

42:27

that happened a long time ago, just

42:29

seemed petty and beneath the moment

42:31

that we face. It

42:34

doesn't at all speak to the urgency that

42:37

this current crisis demands.

42:41

And I just remember saying that to my team. We

42:43

were doing debate prep one day, and we would do these mock

42:45

debates, and they'd

42:48

say, hey, there's this, this is a great point

42:50

to drop about one of your opponents.

42:53

Or I might even, maybe, in order to

42:55

make everyone in the debate room happy, you

42:57

know, bring out his zinger that I could

42:59

nail one of the

43:01

folks on stage with. But but when

43:03

push came to shove and I was on that stage,

43:06

I just I didn't want to do it,

43:08

and I would feel good about it afterwards. I wouldn't

43:10

always feel good about my debate performance or how

43:12

I had done overall, but that

43:15

aspect of it I felt all right with,

43:17

because let's be honest, Bernie

43:20

Sanders, Joe Biden, Elizabeth

43:22

Warren, Amy Klobischer, Pete

43:24

Boodhi, Jedge, andrew Ing. Any

43:26

of them would be so

43:29

superior to Donald Trump,

43:31

and any one of them might very well be our

43:33

nominee. And do we want to do anything

43:35

that would in any significant

43:38

way weaken or imperil our

43:40

ability to come together when

43:42

we need to when we've got

43:44

that nominee against Donald Trump,

43:47

and literally the future of

43:49

this country is at stake. And so

43:52

you know, in some ways your question

43:54

poses another one, which is am I the

43:57

right kind of person to

43:59

be running in a moment like this one?

44:01

If I'm unwilling to

44:04

make those kinds of attacks, if I'm unwilling

44:07

to try to drag people or people

44:09

down in order to elevate my candidacy,

44:12

do I have any business doing that? That's something for probably

44:15

others who follow this stuff and analyze

44:17

this stuff and know the history of this stuff

44:20

to say. But I've

44:22

always felt better about focusing

44:24

on the future, what it is I think that I can do

44:27

or bring to the challenges

44:29

that we face, talk about the things

44:31

that are inspiring to me, and

44:33

then keep the differences at a policy

44:35

level, especially when we're talking

44:37

about other Democrats. You know, having

44:40

been through the circus of this what

44:43

do you think we need

44:45

to change about this process? We

44:48

need to do a whole podcast series

44:51

with thirty eight episodes to answer

44:53

this question. I mean, you

44:56

know the money better we can we can

44:59

do part two and three down the line. There's

45:02

so much I would start with the money

45:04

and the

45:07

insane amount of money that is

45:09

raised and spent in

45:11

these campaigns. The ability for those

45:13

who have an insane amount of money I think of Tom

45:16

Steyer or Mike Bloomberg to

45:19

be able to buy their

45:21

way into a campaign

45:24

to the exclusion of others who are unable

45:27

to. And what does that say

45:29

about our democracy? In our

45:31

ability to pick the person who,

45:34

by merit or

45:36

experience or vision is

45:38

best prepared to lead this country.

45:41

The focus on the

45:44

first four states in the selection

45:47

process, and

45:49

Iowa is just one example.

45:51

We could look at others, but a state that's

45:54

ninety seven percent white just

45:57

does not look like and is not representative

45:59

of America. And it doesn't mean that

46:01

Iowa does not add value

46:04

to the process. They take their role of

46:06

vetting these candidates who come

46:08

through very seriously, and Iowa's

46:12

prominence in the order forces

46:14

you into a retail style of

46:16

politics. I actually enjoy and

46:19

I think can be very revealing about

46:21

candidate, So there's some value

46:24

to that. But to have

46:26

this one state, or New Hampshire,

46:28

another very white state, play

46:31

such an outsized role in selecting

46:33

who the nominee will be and therefore who

46:35

the next president of the United States will

46:38

be, is very wrong.

46:41

But I say this that there's

46:44

a lot of problems, and if you

46:46

are an optimist, those problems

46:49

should suggest innovations

46:52

and ingenuity and solutions

46:54

that someone is going to figure out. I did

46:56

not, and that's why I'm no longer in

46:59

the race for the nomination.

47:01

And I don't know that, frankly, anyone did this

47:04

election cycle. But you

47:06

may see in twenty twenty four or twenty twenty

47:08

eight someone who's been able to

47:10

crack the code and is able to

47:12

bypass the

47:15

role that these early states play, is

47:17

able to figure out the money

47:20

dynamic of this, and is able

47:22

to speak to people in a genuine,

47:25

honest, unguarded way, which

47:27

is what is thrilling to me about politics

47:29

at its best. The can stuff,

47:31

the stuff that's read off of the teleprompter,

47:35

the rehearsed attack lines, the opposition

47:37

research that you refer to. Fuck

47:39

that stuff. It just deepens my cynicism,

47:42

reduces the level of inspiration

47:44

that we feel about a candidate. When

47:46

someone is truly themselves and they

47:49

know who they are, they know what they want to do

47:51

for the country, and they're able to connect with

47:54

our fellow Americans, that's the magic,

47:56

and it's a rare thing,

47:58

and it's made more difficult by the circumstances

48:01

that we just described in our

48:03

system for selecting a president.

48:06

But that desire to see that is still there, and

48:08

I'm confident candidate or some candidates

48:10

are going to figure that out and breakthrough.

48:12

Maybe not, unlike we were

48:15

able to do that in Texas in twenty

48:17

eighteen, in a state that was written

48:20

off or by Democrats left

48:22

for dead. We figured out there

48:24

was a way to do this and we

48:26

went out there and did it. So I think the same holds

48:29

true for our national politics. You

48:31

have to like people to

48:33

be in this. Is that fair to say? Absolutely?

48:36

And when you asked me about my curiosity

48:40

at the outset of this interview, you know, I'm

48:42

just deeply curious about

48:45

you now that I'm getting to know you. You obviously

48:47

are curious about me to be

48:49

able to conduct such a well researched,

48:52

interview, and you do that with your other subjects.

48:54

So I think in our lines of

48:56

work that is a prerequisite.

48:59

And if you don't like people, if you're not curious about

49:01

them, if you don't want to know about their lives,

49:03

about their struggles, about their aspirations,

49:06

then you should find another line

49:08

of work. I'm interested in

49:11

the Senate race. You went to all two hundred and fifty

49:13

four counties. You then do a presidential

49:15

campaign across America.

49:18

There's constant traveling, Like you said,

49:21

media attention from all over, people

49:24

demanding your attention, vying for potential

49:27

future jobs, asking you to consider

49:29

ex policy in this policy. And

49:34

I realized, this is a job you

49:36

do on behalf of people,

49:39

for people, and yet

49:41

it feels like the more

49:44

successful you get, the

49:46

farther away you may

49:49

be from those people. Have

49:53

you reconciled with that, Yeah,

49:55

I think you're really getting to one

49:58

of the great challenges of these national campaigns.

50:02

I saw Mike Bloomberg when he was still a candidate.

50:05

He came to El Paso, for which

50:07

I'm grateful because typically

50:09

nobody comes to El Paso, and that really

50:11

meant something to us. And so went out

50:13

to see his speech, and

50:18

he's speaking from a podium, and he's

50:20

got you know, a glass teleprompter

50:23

on either side of the podium

50:26

from which he can read. There's then a

50:28

perimeter of

50:30

six feet from the stage,

50:32

maybe eight feet before

50:35

you get the first person who's

50:37

been seated, and there's of course people arranged

50:40

and kind of bleacher

50:42

seating behind him into the sides for the optimum

50:45

you know, camera shot. And what

50:47

he's doing is just emblematic of

50:50

American politics today, especially

50:53

at a national level. He's there with people,

50:56

but he's not really there with with people. There's

50:59

no touching, there's no connection.

51:01

There's no ability for anybody to get

51:04

up in his face and say

51:06

I love you, or I'm pissed off

51:08

at you, or have you thought about this, or here's

51:11

a letter. I need you to read this because

51:14

my grandson's life is on the line. We

51:17

consciously during the campaign avoided

51:20

that kind of separation. Never spoke from

51:22

a podium ever, Never read a single

51:24

word that had been written for me by

51:26

myself or anyone else. Always spoke,

51:30

you know, impromptu. I might think through what it is

51:32

I want to say. I might jot down

51:34

some points that i'd like to make. Almost

51:37

always invariably held

51:41

the meeting as a town hall, so I'd say

51:43

what was on my mind, and I'd have to hear what

51:45

was on yours. And very often it might be

51:47

critical, or it maybe a question

51:49

that would stump me, and I'd say, you know what, great question,

51:51

Sam, have no clue, let me let me think about

51:53

it, let me do some research, and then let

51:56

me get back to you. And also invariably

51:58

i'd always build

52:00

in time either before or after, just

52:03

to be with people. So if

52:05

you wanted to take a picture, we'll take a

52:07

picture. But more importantly, if you want

52:09

to share something with me directly that you were

52:12

embarrassed or afraid to share with everyone

52:15

in the room, come up and do it.

52:17

I remember being in Las Vegas and

52:20

after the town hall, this woman came up with her daughter,

52:22

her name was Gina, and her daughter's summer and

52:26

Gina says, one question for you, why

52:28

is it illegal to live in your car

52:30

in Las Vegas? And I said, well,

52:32

what do you mean? And she said, yeah, it's illegal,

52:35

And I don't have enough to

52:37

afford rent. The cheapest apartment I can find

52:39

is like eighteen hundred bucks, and you have

52:41

to have a full month's rent

52:44

as a deposit, and I'm working three

52:46

jobs basically Uber and door Dash

52:49

and one other delivery job. And my

52:51

adult daughter is disabled,

52:53

and I also take care of her, and so the

52:55

only way we can make ends meet is for me to do

52:57

these jobs, take care of her and live in the

52:59

car. And it's illegal, So

53:02

what are you going to do about it? And the

53:05

reason I remember her name and the name of her daughter,

53:07

and the reason I remember her question was

53:09

it just fucking knocked me

53:12

so hard that she didn't

53:14

ask me, why can I not afford a home? Why

53:16

the fuck am I paid a sub livable

53:19

wage in three different jobs? Why

53:22

am I playing by the rules and yet

53:24

I'm barely hanging on? Why

53:26

are there no support services

53:28

for my disabled daughter? It was just like, why can I

53:30

just not live in my car? And meeting

53:34

her that became this spur literally

53:36

every day thereafter. If

53:38

I was ever tempted to feel sorry for myself

53:41

or get down about things, or wonder whether I'm

53:43

doing the right thing, I would think about

53:46

Gina and Summer. They are counting on us

53:48

to figure this stuff out. And there are

53:51

thousands of Gina's and

53:53

Summers that I met over the course of

53:55

that. But you're right.

53:57

I mentioned that media circus that surrounds

53:59

you, the kind of kabuki

54:02

theater that political

54:04

events can descend into, where

54:07

people are kind of miming their parts

54:09

or you know, reciting parts that are that are

54:11

rehearsed. What you're

54:13

looking for is transcendence. What you're

54:15

looking for is to break through to a human to human

54:18

connection, which gets back to your question

54:20

about you have to have a fundamental curiosity

54:23

about people in their lives and

54:25

how they can be made better, or else you have no

54:28

business being involved in politics.

54:30

We're living through, you know, a profoundly

54:32

dark and precarious time in this country

54:35

for many reasons, you know, chief among them

54:37

health and politics.

54:41

And I just want to know where

54:45

are you finding hope

54:47

these days? I think you have to actively

54:51

seek it out and look for it and

54:54

put yourself in a position where you're going to

54:56

find it. One of the best moments

54:59

I've had since we've been under

55:02

lockdown or shelter in place was

55:05

when we went to the local

55:08

food bank. Despite

55:10

shelter in place, and perhaps because of it,

55:13

is even more desperate for volunteers,

55:15

all of whom have to maintain a six foot plus

55:17

distance, wash their hands, wear

55:19

gloves, but needed

55:22

to pack the boxes of food that will

55:24

be distributed to people who depend

55:26

on it now more than ever because they've lost their

55:28

jobs, they can't make ends meet, they can't feed themselves

55:31

and their families. We were there at a time

55:33

that the line to pick up food

55:36

stretched two miles long,

55:38

and the person who was in the

55:40

box assembly line next to me as

55:43

a young woman named Victoria. She's i

55:46

would guess, eighteen or nineteen years old, a student

55:48

at the University of Texas at El Paso, and

55:52

on top of that works at Sam's

55:54

Club, this discount grocery

55:56

store as a cashier,

55:59

where she told me she's unable to keep the

56:01

six foot distance at least at the time from

56:04

the customers who are coming through, but she needs the

56:06

money to be able to pay for her

56:08

education, and she also knows that

56:10

people need the groceries, and so she

56:12

wants to be there. And what struck me and what

56:14

I was so inspired by and why I have hope

56:17

is that here she is on her very limited

56:19

time off where she's not in school or

56:21

studying or at work or with her family,

56:24

and she's volunteering to help

56:26

people who have no ability

56:28

to buy food get the nutrition

56:30

and calories that they need to survive. And

56:33

I just it just hit me. If there

56:35

are people like Victoria in the world, we're

56:38

going to be okay, because I

56:41

think, especially her generation, I guess Generation

56:43

Z so often get discounted

56:46

or written off or blown off as

56:49

self serving or self focused or

56:52

uninterested in the world or making

56:54

things better. And she gives

56:56

a lie to that and defies every

56:58

prediction we have about her generation.

57:01

And as a reminder that at every

57:03

moment of crisis in this country's

57:05

history, it's always been people like Victoria

57:08

and generations curs

57:10

that have come through for us when it

57:12

matters the most. And so that's

57:15

been inspiring to me meeting other volunteers

57:19

who are packing those boxes or distributing

57:21

them to the cars that are waiting, meeting

57:24

some of the people in those cars. I was on the distribution

57:27

line as well, and you know, seeing

57:29

people in their scrubs, nurses

57:31

who just left a shift, who may have

57:34

a partner or spouse who lost

57:36

their job and so they need to come to the

57:38

food bank, or folks in their McDonald's

57:41

uniforms working full time jobs but

57:43

not making enough to feed themselves

57:45

though they work at a restaurant

57:47

that is kicking off billions of dollars

57:50

in profit. I can get pissed

57:52

off, I can get angry, and I'm both of those things

57:54

at the injustice that I see. But I'm

57:57

also so blown away, inspired

57:59

and pressed and made hopeful by

58:02

the good people who persevere despite that

58:04

and who endeavor to change the

58:07

conditions that we have in this country

58:09

right now. And so that makes me at the end of the day,

58:11

optimistic and hopeful that not only

58:13

will we get through this pandemic,

58:16

but we will make those things right that

58:18

scream out to us, especially at this moment

58:20

when everything is laid bare. So

58:23

that was my most recent brush with hope.

58:25

It was Victoria, it feels like you have

58:28

more faith and people

58:31

than you do the Democratic Party. Well,

58:36

I think that's a fair thing to say, and I

58:38

don't. I don't have any anything

58:40

negative to say about the Democratic Party. But

58:43

one of the things that struck me in

58:46

the Texas campaign in twenty seventeen and twenty

58:48

eighteen, we would go into these

58:50

counties that voted for Donald Trump in

58:54

twenty sixteen, and

58:56

yet people whether they were Democrat

58:58

or Republicans were unfailingly kind

59:01

and nice and welcoming and grateful

59:04

that we had taken the time to come

59:06

to their community. And very often, when you got

59:08

down to it, the things that were most

59:10

important to them were the things that are most important to

59:12

me and my family. They may see a different

59:14

way to approach the solution.

59:17

We may surprise each other and find that we actually have

59:19

the same approach to the solution. We just label

59:21

ourselves differently, you as a

59:24

Republican, me as a Democrat. And

59:26

I've just found it so helpful when you can

59:29

break down those barriers or

59:32

those labels, or those definitions or those divides

59:35

and just get to the important stuff. And

59:39

I think sometimes party does stand in

59:41

the way. But I'll tell you I'm proud

59:43

to be a Democrat, never more so than

59:45

at this moment, when we

59:47

face a president of the

59:49

opposing party who is

59:51

a monster and who has

59:54

turned the GOP really into a

59:56

cult of personality. When Donald Trump

59:58

enjoys a ninety four percent approval

1:00:00

rating, despite inviting

1:00:03

foreign participation in elections,

1:00:05

despite caging kids, despite the deaths

1:00:07

of seven kids in our custom city and care

1:00:09

on the US Mexico border, despite describing

1:00:12

immigrants as infestations

1:00:14

or invasions, or inspiring

1:00:16

the massacre that took place in El Paso on August

1:00:19

third, where a gunman walked in

1:00:21

with an AK forty seven and killed

1:00:23

in cold blood twenty two human beings

1:00:26

for no other crime than the

1:00:28

color of their skin or their country of national origin.

1:00:31

Then I want the Democratic Party to

1:00:34

be successful, and I want to do everything I can to

1:00:36

do that. But I don't want to lose sight or

1:00:39

stop listening to people who call

1:00:42

themselves republican or don't

1:00:44

define themselves by a

1:00:47

partisan label. I think if this country is going to

1:00:49

make it, if we're going to heal, if we're going to achieve

1:00:51

the ambitious goals we all have, then

1:00:54

we've got to be able to transcend

1:00:57

those barriers, those definitions,

1:00:59

those labels. You are going to

1:01:01

turn forty eight this year. Something

1:01:04

called midlife, I think is what it is? What

1:01:08

are you thinking for yourself in

1:01:11

the years ahead? What do you want? You

1:01:14

know? The first thing that came to mind when you asked the question

1:01:17

was my health and my ability

1:01:19

to stay in shape. I'm

1:01:21

running almost every morning. I'll

1:01:23

run four or five days in a row, and I'll take a day

1:01:26

off, and they'll run the next four or

1:01:28

five days in the row. And I'm running in

1:01:31

the Franklin Mountains, which

1:01:33

is our part of the Rocky Mountain chain

1:01:36

here in El Paso. And so you'll

1:01:38

start at an elevation of four thousand feet and

1:01:40

I'll climb, you know, a

1:01:42

few hundred feet and it's

1:01:45

a tough run. But I'm conscious

1:01:47

of making that effort every

1:01:49

day because I don't want to get

1:01:52

old for my kids, if that makes sense.

1:01:54

I want to be able to as badly as I play

1:01:56

basketball, and there's no one who plays

1:01:59

it worse than I do. I still want to be able to play

1:02:02

in the driveway with Ulysses and Henry

1:02:04

and Molly as we did this morning. I

1:02:07

want to be around for as long as

1:02:09

I can. My dad died in his fifties.

1:02:11

His dad died in his fifties. His

1:02:14

dad died in his fifties. I

1:02:16

want to be the O'Rourke that that breaks the cycle

1:02:19

and and lives to an old age to meet

1:02:22

his grandkids and

1:02:24

um and you know, be healthy

1:02:26

and be there for them. You

1:02:28

know. I want to have a different relationship with my kids

1:02:31

than my dad did with me and my sisters

1:02:34

in not every way, because he was

1:02:36

an extraordinary dad in a lot of ways, but in

1:02:38

terms of literally being there

1:02:41

and um and that that means living

1:02:44

too a hope an age

1:02:46

where I can be there for them for as long as

1:02:48

they as long as they need me. And then I

1:02:50

just I just so love

1:02:53

this country and

1:02:55

and understand

1:02:57

I think the

1:03:00

peril that we face that is

1:03:02

unparalleled, at least in my lifetime.

1:03:04

I think you really do have to go back to

1:03:07

you know, World War two or the Great Oppression

1:03:09

or maybe the Civil War to find

1:03:11

a crisis like this one. And

1:03:14

I want to do whatever it takes,

1:03:16

in whatever capacity I possess,

1:03:19

to help this country come through. And

1:03:22

I think it's a very open question right now as

1:03:24

to whether or not we are going to make it, or

1:03:27

whether if we do make it, we will remain a

1:03:29

republic or a democracy or

1:03:31

the institutions that we've counted on. And probably,

1:03:34

at least i'll speak for myself, taken

1:03:36

for granted, are going to survive

1:03:39

this presidency and this moment.

1:03:41

And so I don't know what that means. I don't

1:03:44

know if it is running for office again

1:03:46

somewhere down the road. I don't know if it is supporting

1:03:48

others who run for office. I

1:03:50

don't know if it's being civically engaged in my hometown

1:03:53

of El Paso, but whatever

1:03:56

form it takes, I just wholeheartedly

1:03:58

believe that in a democracy there

1:04:00

are no sidelines. You don't get to sit it out. Part

1:04:04

of the price you pay for

1:04:06

this wonderful gift of citizenship

1:04:09

in the greatest democracy on the planet

1:04:12

is being actively involved and

1:04:14

engaged, and so I want

1:04:16

to continue to do that. I don't know what that will look

1:04:18

like, but that's my commitment. In

1:04:20

the Odyssey, which

1:04:22

is a piece of literature that means a great deal to you,

1:04:25

there is a line few sons

1:04:27

are like their fathers. Most

1:04:29

are worse, few better. There's

1:04:32

another line, and I'm paraphrasing, um,

1:04:34

but who really knows their

1:04:36

father? You

1:04:39

know what? It's Sam, That's why you're

1:04:41

so good at this. I it's

1:04:44

just one of the most profound questions.

1:04:47

I don't know if you've ever read Turgeniev's Fathers

1:04:50

and Sons, but this

1:04:53

idea, and maybe is the

1:04:55

same for you and your

1:04:57

father, for any man and his father,

1:05:02

This idea of how you compare to

1:05:05

your dad, and whether you've lived

1:05:07

to his ex dictations or exceeded

1:05:10

them, whether as a father

1:05:12

of two sons, UM, whether

1:05:16

you know I'm setting unrealistic expectations,

1:05:18

or whether there's some shadow that I'm creating, UM

1:05:22

from which they'll have to emerge, And

1:05:25

what I can do better

1:05:27

than my dad did, and what I hope my

1:05:29

kids will do better for their kids

1:05:32

than I've done for them. That's

1:05:34

something that preoccupies me. And then

1:05:36

it's a different dynamic again with my daughter, you

1:05:38

know, a different kind of relationship,

1:05:41

just as important, just different, Um

1:05:44

I mentioned earlier. There's there's not a day that goes

1:05:47

by that I don't think about my dad, and I

1:05:49

often wonder what he would think

1:05:51

of all of this, and I,

1:05:54

you know, can't help but think he would just fucking

1:05:56

love so much of this. UM

1:05:59

be excited. I think he'd be. He'd be proud,

1:06:02

UM. And I think our most

1:06:04

sincerest, deeply held wish

1:06:07

as parents is that our

1:06:10

kids do better than we've done,

1:06:12

and I certainly hold that for my kids.

1:06:14

I want them in whatever form

1:06:16

that takes right, whether it's being

1:06:18

a visual artist, whether it's being

1:06:21

a therapist, whether it's a school teacher, whether it's

1:06:23

a police officer, whatever

1:06:25

that is. I want them to be

1:06:28

so fulfilled and to do so well

1:06:30

at it, and as long as they

1:06:32

are happy in that way

1:06:34

that I feel like and if I've been able

1:06:36

to contribute to it, even if that means staying the fuck

1:06:38

out of their way, then I think I will have done

1:06:41

my job. It's funny you almost mentioned

1:06:43

my last question, which

1:06:46

is thinking about your father. You know, he was very,

1:06:49

very critical of you at

1:06:51

a young age. He once

1:06:53

said, I expect you to achieve greatness

1:06:56

and grades in athletics,

1:06:58

in whatever you do. And

1:07:01

we've been reflecting on you

1:07:04

know, forty five forty

1:07:06

six years of life, ten

1:07:09

fifteen years of public life.

1:07:12

I'm interested now that we're in this

1:07:14

moment. Do you feel like you've lived

1:07:16

up to his expectations.

1:07:19

I do. It's

1:07:21

a really hard question to answer because I

1:07:25

think part of the power

1:07:29

and almost a pernicious part of the power of

1:07:32

a father's influence on his son, or at least my

1:07:35

dad's influence on me, is

1:07:37

that the drive to

1:07:40

do better never recedes. It

1:07:43

just it is just a NonStop

1:07:47

part of my consciousness. So

1:07:50

there's never a victory

1:07:52

achieved banner that I can

1:07:54

stand in front of it's never

1:07:57

done. And it's from the

1:08:00

public part of life running for office

1:08:02

or holding office, and it's

1:08:04

the private part of life making

1:08:06

that run every single morning to

1:08:08

stay in shape and engaged and alive

1:08:11

and vital. So you

1:08:14

know, how you calibrate that As a parent, I

1:08:16

think is really important. And I want to make sure that

1:08:19

for my kids. And I don't know that I

1:08:21

do this, and they'll have to tell you in

1:08:24

fifteen or twenty years, but you know,

1:08:26

I want them to know

1:08:28

that they're capable of doing

1:08:30

amazing things in their lives, and I I just

1:08:32

know that to my bones, and I want to

1:08:34

help them to achieve that. And I also

1:08:36

want to spur them

1:08:39

in some ways or kick them

1:08:41

in the ass when when they need

1:08:43

it most. And there's not a lot of kicking that that

1:08:45

I've got to do or that Amy has to do, but

1:08:48

I want I don't want to do so much that

1:08:51

it can in some ways make

1:08:54

life hard for them or make

1:08:56

them feel though they've never achieved

1:08:58

that. I'll just give you maybe clothes on just an

1:09:01

anecdote right before I got on with you.

1:09:04

We're running the Aurora Home School for

1:09:06

the Gifted here during shelter

1:09:09

place and I teach

1:09:11

pe I'm responsible

1:09:13

for lunch. I teach a history class, and

1:09:16

then Amy and I alternate between art

1:09:18

and music. So Monday's,

1:09:21

Wednesdays and Fridays, she's teaching art,

1:09:23

Tuesdays and Thursdays, I'm

1:09:25

teaching music. Today's Tuesday. And

1:09:27

so I had Henry for a half hour.

1:09:29

He's my nine year old and

1:09:32

I love playing guitar and I want

1:09:34

to share that with him. And now I have a

1:09:37

captive audience where he's in school and he has

1:09:39

to he has to listen to me, and he has

1:09:41

to try to learn. And I'm

1:09:43

teaching him to play iron Man. First, I teach

1:09:45

him, you know, all

1:09:48

the strings and the notes on the strings,

1:09:50

and the way the notes change,

1:09:53

and how to put his finger on the fretboard and

1:09:55

how to make it sound the way that we wanted to sound. And

1:09:57

then I'm going to teach him iron

1:10:00

Man. And I

1:10:02

could catch a

1:10:04

glimpse of my dad in

1:10:08

both my love for Henry and also

1:10:10

my impatience when he

1:10:12

can't get it right the first

1:10:14

time, and

1:10:17

and my insistence that we get

1:10:20

iron Man down and

1:10:23

before we call this this lesson off.

1:10:25

So it's something as a dad that I'm very

1:10:28

conscious of and try to be thoughtful of

1:10:31

um. But knowing that in at

1:10:33

least my dad's estimation or

1:10:36

that drive that he instilled in me, you're

1:10:38

You're never there. There's

1:10:40

there's always more to do, and there can be a

1:10:43

very positive way to approach

1:10:45

that in a very negative way, and I've just got

1:10:47

to make sure that I always stay on that positive

1:10:49

track. Well, I have a sense

1:10:51

to you and Amy are doing a

1:10:53

pretty good job. And truly,

1:10:56

I'm sure your kids are going to turn out all right.

1:10:58

And if you need to have them come

1:11:00

on this show in fifteen twenty years, they

1:11:02

have an open invitation deal.

1:11:05

Thank you so much for doing this. Really grateful

1:11:08

to be invited to thank you. Thanks for the interview,

1:11:10

Thank you, and

1:11:34

that's our show. Special thanks

1:11:37

this week to the team at Star City

1:11:39

Studio and Gallery in El Paso,

1:11:41

Texas, Pat Winston, Buddy

1:11:43

Winston, and Eric Boseman. I'd

1:11:46

also like to give a special thanks to Cynthia Cano

1:11:48

and the O'Rourke family, Amy,

1:11:51

Ulysses, Henry and Molly. They

1:11:53

were all gracious enough to stay upstairs

1:11:55

and stay quiet while their father

1:11:58

recorded a podcast in the basement with a

1:12:00

stranger. For that I thank

1:12:02

them. I'd also like to thank Betto

1:12:05

or Wurke for sitting with me this week. If

1:12:07

you can afford it in these trying time times,

1:12:09

we'd really appreciate you considering

1:12:11

a donation to the El Pasoans

1:12:14

Fighting Hunger Food Bank. To learn

1:12:16

more, visit their site at El Pasowens

1:12:18

Fighting Hunger dot org, where you can

1:12:21

visit our site at www dot

1:12:23

talk easypod dot

1:12:25

com. Our four year

1:12:27

long back catalog, which includes

1:12:29

talks with Deray McKesson, Malcolm Gladwell,

1:12:32

Glorias Dynam, Alan Alda, Rob Reiner,

1:12:35

can be found on our website, Spotify,

1:12:37

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1:12:40

updates about our show, be sure

1:12:42

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1:12:45

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1:12:47

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1:12:49

us a line at talk easypod

1:12:51

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1:12:54

This show is made possible each week

1:12:56

by our incredible team. Our executive

1:12:58

producer is Jannick Sobravo. Our associate

1:13:01

producer is Nicky Spina. Illustrations

1:13:03

by Christia Schanoy, graphics by Ian

1:13:05

Jones, music by Dylan Peck

1:13:08

and Jin Sang. Our editors

1:13:10

are Andre Lynn and Kat Owen.

1:13:12

Our engineer is Tim Moore and

1:13:15

finally, the show is produced by

1:13:17

Caroline Reebok. I'm Sam Fragoso.

1:13:20

Thank you for listening to Talk Easy. Next

1:13:23

Sunday is no M. Chomsky. But before

1:13:26

we go, the

1:13:29

inimitable Bill Withers passed away

1:13:31

this week. I can't

1:13:33

tell you how many times I have turned to

1:13:35

his music when I really

1:13:37

needed it over the years. I

1:13:40

imagine some of you have done the same. His

1:13:43

wisdom and his poetry will be

1:13:46

deeply, deeply missed, and

1:13:48

thankfully it will live on within

1:13:51

the margins of his music, including

1:13:54

songs like this one. So

1:13:57

this is I don't know off the album

1:13:59

Still Bill, and

1:14:02

rest in peace, mister Withers. Stay

1:14:05

safe everyone, I'll see

1:14:07

you next week. M

1:14:21

M. I get

1:14:23

a warm, warm on

1:14:25

summer feeling walking

1:14:30

through the snow, even

1:14:35

chilly dark side

1:14:39

hands the brightest glow, and

1:14:43

I just live

1:14:47

love you so mm

1:14:50

hmm. Sometime

1:14:53

I just don't know, no, no, I

1:14:55

just don't know who. I

1:14:58

just don't know. I

1:15:01

just don't know whom I

1:15:03

see That time just

1:15:05

seems to this

1:15:10

wondrous feeling rue. Maybe

1:15:15

I might wake up building one

1:15:18

morning and find

1:15:20

it isn't so. But

1:15:23

I just love

1:15:28

you so M

1:15:31

hmm. Sometimes

1:15:33

I just don't know, I

1:15:36

just don't do BO. I

1:15:38

just don't know, I

1:15:41

just don't do BO.