0:15

Pushkin. Welcome

0:43

to the show. This is Talk Easy. I'm Sanfordgos

0:45

and thank you so much for being here. This week

0:48

on the podcast, We're excited to have an Oscar winner

0:50

in Roger Ross Williams. Williams

0:53

is a documentary filmmaker whose

0:55

career in storytelling began in the form

0:57

of journalism. From nineteen eighty

0:59

five onward, he produced investigative

1:02

segments for ABC News, NBC

1:04

News, MSNBC, BBC,

1:06

and CNN. Basically, if

1:09

the network had a B or C in its title,

1:11

Williams work for them. His

1:14

ethos then was the same as it is now

1:16

present the truth, no matter the cost.

1:19

For Roger, whose childhood is so complex

1:22

that I'll let him explain it in this episode, truth

1:25

was and still is everything

1:27

to him. In a world of uncertainty,

1:30

Williams needed facts, some

1:32

small amount of honesty that made sense.

1:35

He eventually left journalism for cinema,

1:37

making a series of unique documentary

1:39

shorts that led him to Music by Prudence.

1:42

The film is about disabled Africans

1:44

who find meaning and joy in the music

1:47

they make, led by the titular Prudence.

1:50

However, the short doc made front

1:52

page headlines for all the wrong reasons.

1:55

Upon accepting his award at the Oscars

1:57

for Best Documentary Short, Williams

1:59

was kanyate by a producer on the film, Eleanor

2:02

Briquett. Mid speech, Williams

2:05

is interrupted full stop. It

2:08

has gone down as one of the most uncomfortable

2:10

Oscar moments in the show's history. We

2:13

dive into all that in the conversation you're about

2:15

to hear. What's important to note,

2:17

though, is that Williams moved on and

2:19

made other projects. Most recently,

2:22

he's the director behind the Oscar nominated

2:24

feature link documentary Life

2:26

Animated. It's a moving story

2:28

about an autistic child who discovers language

2:31

through Disney films. Here's a clip

2:33

from the trailer. We're

2:36

beginning to give up hope, and one day

2:38

we're watching the Disney animated movies

2:41

and he says he doesn't

2:43

want to grow up like Mowgli or

2:45

Peter Pan, and

2:51

all of a sudden it became clear to us he's

2:53

using these movies to make

2:56

sense of the world. He actually's living

2:58

in our world. So at that

3:00

point we begin for context. This

3:02

conversation was recorded yesterday while

3:05

Williams was on his exhaustive

3:07

Oscar publicity were for the movie. All

3:11

filmmakers who are trying to buy for

3:14

a golden statue

3:16

have to keep, you know, keep the momentum alive.

3:19

And so it was good to finally sit

3:21

down and I think get away from

3:23

some of the typical conversations you have

3:26

when you have seven to twelve minutes with people

3:29

and you're doing radio spots and you're on TV

3:31

and you can't really dive into stuff in any real detail.

3:34

And I think this one turned

3:36

out well. Like I mentioned, we talked about

3:39

the complexities and unusual

3:42

nature of his childhood, the

3:45

kerfuffle at the Oscars a few years

3:47

ago, and a lot more

3:49

about being ambitious and

3:51

aspiring to be more than what

3:53

people are going to tell you to be. And

3:56

I really hope you enjoyed this conversation. So

4:00

finally here is Roger

4:02

Ross Williams. Well,

4:11

I talk about the idea of you seeing yourself

4:13

as an outsider. Is that is

4:15

that a fair characterization of yourself?

4:17

Yeah? Absolutely? Um, Um,

4:20

I've always been an outsider. I um

4:24

grew up in a very

4:26

religious community.

4:30

Um my father actually

4:32

was the head deacon in a church,

4:34

and my family are all pastors, and

4:37

um I was this uh um

4:39

you know, closeted gay kid who

4:42

couldn't what age? And I think we went

4:45

over that the last time we spoke. But what age did

4:47

you find yourself knowing

4:49

like I'm interested in man? I

4:51

think you know, birth birth,

4:54

I think I always born. You got

4:56

out and Roger was like, yeah, I don't, I don't want Yeah,

4:59

I mean you're you're you know. UM.

5:02

It took me a while to accept it, but I knew

5:04

always that I was,

5:07

you know, attracted to men. So so

5:09

so as long as early as

5:11

I can remember being um, you

5:13

know, like having being attracted

5:15

to someone else, you know, that's

5:18

what I was attracted. You remember the first person you were attracted

5:21

to? Well, I

5:23

kind of you know. That's funny because I was just

5:25

back at my UM.

5:27

I was back in my high school filming for this documentary

5:31

I'm doing for CNN. UM,

5:33

and I was going through the yearbook with

5:36

and UM, and I saw there was this

5:38

guy. I don't know if I can say his

5:40

name. UM, let me say his first name. His

5:42

name was Pete. And um

5:45

I was totally in love with Pete, like

5:47

I was like, um

5:50

uh, and I remember Pete

5:52

having no idea because you were like, you know, it

5:54

was a sixth grade and

5:56

we were like holding hand, you know, you just hold

5:59

hands with your friends. Like I don't know, they

6:01

were like holding hands and hanging out.

6:04

I mean we were hanging out by the river and we were holding

6:06

hands. And I was like, I was

6:08

like in sixth grade,

6:10

Yeah, that's like what twelve

6:13

Yeah, I feel like that's like people

6:15

kind of know what's going on at that point. Yeah.

6:17

And I was totally in love with him and I

6:19

would go home and I remember and I would draw

6:22

pictures of him. I would draw pictures

6:24

of us like together, like as a

6:26

as a as like a couple. I

6:28

don't know if we were having sex in the pictures, but

6:30

like, um, I don't know what you know it

6:33

was, but it was it was sexual, there was. It definitely

6:35

was sexual for me. And um

6:38

kid, he was a German

6:40

kid. He's a white German

6:43

kid, wrestler, German

6:46

wrestler. I think the wrestling

6:49

part played into Yeah, so that playing into a

6:51

huge part of my fantasy. Um

6:53

And then I think he caught onto it because like

6:55

he started distancing himself because I

6:58

started people started becoming suspicious of

7:01

me, like they were like, he's

7:03

not that good in sports, he's

7:06

he's he hangs around with girls

7:08

too much. Um, he's

7:11

like a mama's boy, you know,

7:13

all those things. And then in my family they were

7:15

like I who would hear my like grandfather

7:18

saying to my mother that boy's going

7:20

to be a sissy if you don't lay off of him.

7:22

You know, like you baby him too much.

7:24

You know, why isn't he playing sports?

7:27

What's wrong with him? He's not a man. Would

7:29

your parents like try to force you into sports?

7:32

No, my mother was so I

7:34

was a mama's boy. So so she was so Um,

7:38

I wouldn't saying I wouldn't say she was accepting

7:40

of my sexuality, but she was. She

7:42

just kind of accepting me for

7:45

who I was. So she's like, he's not into sports,

7:48

he's uh, he likes to

7:50

read, and he likes to be alone and

7:53

stay in his room and draw

7:55

things and live in his own world. And

7:59

your father, I didn't have a father.

8:02

Um. My mom was a single mother. I

8:04

didn't find my father until I was um,

8:09

only like maybe fifteen years ago.

8:11

And this is really funny because the reason I

8:13

found my father was because of Ron Suskine,

8:16

the subject of Life Animated

8:18

and the author of the book and Owen

8:21

Saskinne's father. So, Ron,

8:24

who you've been friends with for a long time. Yeah,

8:27

Ron and I were doing a show together

8:30

called Life three

8:32

sixty, Interesting Life Animated Life

8:34

three sixty and

8:37

it was for PBS,

8:39

produced by ABC. So we were

8:41

working at ABC News

8:44

producing a series and it was a

8:46

one It was based kind of loosely based

8:48

on this American life where we would take one

8:51

topic and we would tell a number of different

8:53

stories around a topic. And this one

8:55

was family secrets. And

8:59

my mother had been married and I

9:02

had a brother, older brother, and sister, and she

9:05

had an affair Herne the guy

9:07

I thought with my father, we're not

9:10

getting along, and she had an affair

9:12

with the head deacon of the church. And

9:14

I was the product of that affair. And I

9:16

was the only one who didn't know that it

9:19

was the most open secret. The whole town knew

9:21

that I was the head deacon's son, but

9:25

I didn't know obviously growing up. And then my best

9:27

friend told me when I was like thirteen, like on this squil

9:29

like kind of on the playground, like like you

9:32

know, your father's not your real father, your

9:34

father's um um deacon

9:36

deacon Davis, and I was like, I

9:39

didn't. I couldn't process this. So I went home and asked my mom

9:41

and she's like, yeah, it's true. And

9:44

not only that, but he's been supporting

9:46

you your whole life secretly.

9:49

And I mean, I'm just like

9:52

a dumbstruck but I mean, it's it's

9:54

an astonishing it's hard to process

9:56

that. It's hard to process that when you're

9:59

a kid. It's hard to process that when you're an adult.

10:01

And it was and Ron's like, you

10:04

need to find your

10:07

father and you to meet him

10:09

and you need to talk to him, and

10:12

uh, why don't you do one of the one

10:14

Let's do an hour in family Secrets and we'll we'll

10:16

do that. And I was like, wait, great, this is the way I can.

10:18

I can find my father and I don't have to emotionally

10:21

connect because I'm I have the cameras to protect

10:23

me and it's and it's for television,

10:25

so I can be really fake. That didn't. That was so

10:27

stupid because I

10:30

was emotionally emotional rack I

10:33

cried a lot. The cameras did

10:35

not protect me emotionally, and

10:38

I um ended up having

10:40

this really sort of um

10:43

pretty pretty disastrous UM

10:45

experience. Yeah, but

10:47

it was a long time coming. I mean when you heard

10:49

that as a kid, I want to get back to

10:52

you as an adult reapproaching this. But

10:54

when you're hearing that at age thirteen, what

10:57

is your thought process? What? You

11:00

go home? And your mom was like, yes, this

11:02

is what's been happening. Do you say, hey, why

11:05

why wasn't this public knowledge to me? Why

11:07

didn't you sit me down and have this conversation? Um?

11:12

No, you know what you

11:14

have to understand the environment

11:17

where I was living and my

11:19

mother, UM was a

11:22

m a maid, a domestic

11:24

servant, and she was

11:26

UM and she mostly cleaned

11:29

wealthy To me, they seemed wealthy

11:31

white people's homes and um,

11:34

and she worked in a fraternity house

11:36

at Lafayette College and cleaned

11:38

the frat house. That was that was that was an

11:40

ugly scene, you can imagine. And

11:42

um, and I would go with her to work and so

11:45

she But but in her community,

11:47

in her generation, she never graduated

11:49

from high school, and her generation,

11:52

the men were very abusive. You know, just

11:54

watch fences, you know, Um,

11:56

it was very August Wilson and so

11:59

so the men she

12:01

described it, Yeah, the men

12:04

abused the women.

12:06

The women sort of put up with it. Everyone

12:08

had had affairs. They took

12:10

their pain that they She grew up in Charleston,

12:13

South Carolina, and they took

12:15

there and she left to go to Philadelphia

12:17

for better life, you know, in the north, and

12:19

she took her pain and they would

12:21

abuse each other emotionally. And

12:24

so I was around a lot of craziness

12:27

as a kid, but I never sort of real I

12:29

was like, these people are crazy. I can't connect to them.

12:31

I just want to go live in Paris. Paris

12:35

was my my escaped. I would

12:37

like create stories of me in Paris. I

12:39

don't know where that came from or how I got

12:41

that. Did your mom feel any guilt

12:43

at all? No,

12:46

you know, as a matter of fact, my mom was like, that's

12:49

just the way it is. That's just the way it is,

12:52

and you know, that's

12:54

the way we treated each other. And she

12:56

just told me once. I and

12:59

then but I see when I found out at thirteen,

13:01

I sort of followed it away. I couldn't handle

13:03

it, so I just forgot about it. Right. It

13:06

was one of those things you got angry about in the moment

13:09

and then sort of just moved on, went

13:11

back to and I only saw

13:13

him. I would see him

13:15

in so he went to a different church.

13:18

I was UM then my church, but

13:20

his his cousin, UM,

13:22

Reverend Davis. Reverend Fred Davis was

13:24

the pastor UM and

13:27

UM. I saw him once.

13:30

I only went up to him once in church. He was

13:32

he was a singer. He sang in the choir here. So

13:34

you would see him at Mass. Yeah,

13:37

regularly when we would go

13:39

to his church to sing. I was in the choir and

13:42

he was a singer and he was so we'd go to his

13:44

church and we would sing. And I went up to him once

13:47

and he gave me um

13:49

a twenty dollars bill, which I thought,

13:51

which was really weird to me because I was like, oh,

13:54

he gave me a twenty dollar bill because I'm his kid,

13:57

and he just gave him and it was It

13:59

was so weird, and I just never

14:01

thought about it again until I

14:04

did the piece at PBS, and that twenty

14:06

dollar bill became symbolic of like a

14:08

lot of things. Right, And

14:11

what age did you do the piece at Pbsum,

14:15

This was fifteen years ago, so

14:18

I was, you know, thirties, and

14:21

I was So you left this story

14:23

in this chapter, or rather this part

14:25

of your life kind

14:27

of hidden or behind you for fifteen years. Yeah,

14:31

I left it hidden and I but

14:34

the thing is that when I

14:36

graduated from high school, he had

14:38

two kids around my

14:40

age who went to the same school

14:43

as me. But I didn't. I didn't. I

14:45

didn't know they were my half brothers and sisters. They

14:47

knew because there was a whole big

14:50

confrontation in his family when his

14:53

wife found out that he had fathered a

14:56

child and that the child lives

14:58

in close proximity, and the Reverend

15:02

Fred Davis the was called

15:04

in to mediate and I when I

15:06

made this short, I go

15:08

back to the church and night and he goes. I was

15:10

called in the night she found out and

15:13

he was like on

15:15

his knees saying it was not my kid,

15:18

and he was and um and he

15:20

goes. But everyone knew you were his kid.

15:22

You know. My mother wasn't

15:25

seeing anyone else like they they

15:27

and he would I would still see each other.

15:30

So he asked her to run

15:33

away with him, UM to New

15:35

York City, to Brooklyn. And Um

15:37

at what age I was,

15:40

I was, Um, I was

15:43

young, I mean I was you know. Her

15:45

and my um stepfather got

15:48

divorced pretty pretty much when

15:50

I was born. Sure Um

15:53

so she was a single mom, and he asked

15:55

her to run away with her and she said no, she couldn't

15:57

break up his family, and she refused,

16:00

so he ran away with one of the young

16:02

girls in the choir and they they

16:04

were still together when I when I

16:06

met him whenever, thirty years

16:08

later and a trailer. He

16:11

lived in a trailer in Georgia, in um

16:13

Albany, Georgia, and I

16:16

went to the And it's funny because there's

16:19

so many layers to this because Camera

16:21

Person, which is a film that's um

16:23

by kJ Um, I called

16:26

Kjum Kristin Johnson

16:29

Um. She was shooting, she was filmed

16:31

this piece. So she's was encouraging

16:33

me. She's I was like, I couldn't go into the

16:35

trailer. I was nervous in kJ you know, like if watch

16:37

Camera Person and you see like that, you

16:40

know that. And she was like my conscience,

16:42

she was like, you can do this, and

16:45

and I went in and I met him,

16:47

and it was amazing because we took a road trip

16:50

to meet my brother, my half brother,

16:52

and sister m who had

16:54

assembled forty members of

16:56

the family with a banner saying

16:58

welcome our brother Roger,

17:01

and they all assembled to have a

17:03

huge reunion around me, Um,

17:06

being the newest member of the family. And

17:09

this was all very overwhelming, and

17:11

they said, you know, this was the story

17:13

of the Black family. You know, people kids,

17:15

people turn up, they have family unions

17:17

every people turn up all the time. They

17:20

just show up and welcome. And

17:22

we knew about you when we were in high school.

17:24

We confronted her dad. Um, you

17:27

know, we knew that you existed. They had reached

17:29

out to me and I didn't return to their calls

17:31

because I couldn't handle it right. So

17:33

it was this one. They have a family. Everyone

17:37

has passed away, my

17:39

half brother and sister. When

17:42

I've found my father, UM,

17:46

I went to the to his cousin,

17:48

the Reverend Davis, who's the leader this the

17:50

sort of religious leader of our town. And

17:53

he said, Um, the

17:55

kids couldn't take um the

17:57

betrayal. And so your

18:00

brother, your half brother hit the

18:02

bottle, and your half sister hit

18:04

the Bible. And my brother

18:07

was an alcoholic who died of alcoholism,

18:09

and my half sister was

18:12

a pastor, a minister who died

18:14

of cancer. Um recently. And uh.

18:18

And when I found my father,

18:20

he said to me now

18:22

that you found me. There's only one reason why I allowed

18:25

you to come and film his nuts, because I

18:27

want money from you. I need

18:29

money and you need to pay

18:31

me money. And I

18:33

was like, I thought you wanted to see me because

18:35

I'm your son, and he's like, no,

18:38

I want you to support me and um,

18:41

and so I went outside and cried. And

18:43

then UM. He got into

18:45

a car accident a few months later and he

18:48

was on his deathbed and they, my

18:50

half brothers, said call him.

18:52

He wants to talk to you. And I called him and

18:54

he said all the things he can out muster

18:57

the words, will send money. And

18:59

that was the last words that he spoke

19:02

to me, and then he died. I

19:07

know, it's like, you can't make this stuff up. Yeah,

19:11

how do you move on from that? I've

19:14

never was, um, emotionally

19:18

connected to my father. Um,

19:21

I never felt anything.

19:23

I just felt like my mother was my mother

19:25

and father and UM it

19:27

didn't really you

19:29

know, I can detach emotionally, yeah,

19:32

but but I wonder you

19:34

still felt the absence. Oh

19:36

yeah, I think that's

19:38

um part of my journey.

19:42

I think that rejection is probably

19:45

what drives me as a

19:47

filmmaker, as an artist. I

19:50

think that I'm constantly trying

19:52

to prove myself so like I

19:54

you know, even you know, because

19:57

one person said they

19:59

don't want you. Yeah, but

20:02

isn't that what? And that's why that's

20:04

the theme in my work. That's why Prudence,

20:08

my first my first film,

20:11

Music by Prudence was

20:13

about a severely disabled girl

20:16

who without arms or without

20:19

legs or use of her arms, who lived

20:21

like an animal because her family rejected her because

20:24

disability is considered witchcraft in Zimbabwe,

20:26

where she lived, and she lived on the floor like

20:28

an animal. She didn't think she was human until

20:31

she was rescued by a school who cleaned

20:33

her up, put her in a wheelchair and she

20:37

started singing and they and she

20:39

had this incredible singing voice, and she

20:43

realizes that she

20:45

can lift herself out of this sort of

20:48

um by fooms through art, through her music.

20:50

And I just was blown away

20:52

by that story. And we went all

20:54

the way to you know, the Oscars, you know,

20:56

I say, we went through the three os Oscars

20:59

Obama. She performed for Obama and was

21:01

on Oprah.

21:07

Do you think of this that

21:09

happened in your family and in

21:11

your childhood is a reason why

21:14

um, you emotionally

21:16

detach often. Yeah,

21:19

I do. Um. By

21:21

the way, I'm making a big assumption and I

21:24

don't know you very well, but

21:27

but it's an assumption based on our limited

21:30

interaction and an interview I

21:32

heard you do with Elvis Mitchell you have

21:34

known for a long time. Oh yeah, and who

21:36

pointed out that, um,

21:39

you do it a little a bit of a distancing act.

21:43

Elvis knows me well, um, and

21:46

UM, I do. Though I will

21:48

say You've been terribly forthright with

21:50

me and not terribly I

21:53

think it's good. This is a new

21:55

the new Roger. You know, this is a new

21:57

way of um, I mean

22:00

communicating and I I'm like, um,

22:02

I'm you know, trying to be more in

22:04

touch with this this stuff

22:07

because I know that I'm like driven to will

22:09

call me too ambitious, and I've always been called

22:11

overly ambitious, which is like,

22:13

I think it's like kind of I was like, is that like kind of

22:15

racing? It's a race. It's

22:17

it's like it's like, yeah, race racist.

22:20

I know many times people have told

22:22

me that I'm too ambitious, almost

22:24

never, and it's

22:26

not because I'm not trying hard enough. We're working

22:29

hard enough. I get called out for

22:31

being too ambitious all the time?

22:33

Who's telling you that? Though other

22:36

filmmakers say that, um,

22:39

I one of my I remember I

22:42

was working for um TV

22:44

Nation for Michael Moore on his television show

22:46

and I and I was an associate

22:48

producer and I pitched story and got

22:50

um he accepted it, and I was

22:53

gonna I was gonna produce a Michael Moore

22:55

segment, which is a big deal. And I remember

22:57

the other associate producers they were like, they

22:59

were like, he's like such a somebody

23:01

actually told me a brown noser. But

23:05

they were like, he's too ambitious. He's all

23:07

my career, every single step of

23:10

the way. And whenever someone tells me I'm too ambitious,

23:12

I just get more ambitious. But what

23:14

else are you supposed to do? I'm

23:18

I am you know, yeah, yeah, become

23:20

sluggish and it's interested. Yeah

23:22

exactly exactly. But you sidestep

23:25

the comment about me thinking perhaps

23:28

so you emotionally detached fairly

23:30

often I wouldn't. I

23:32

mean, you know, probably

23:36

a lot of the time. That's

23:39

changing. I mean I would say when I

23:41

was younger, I was very emotionally detached.

23:43

I think you know, now

23:46

I'm married, I had you know, I

23:48

cried more at my wedding than anyone,

23:50

like publicly and in every speech. And

23:53

you know, I was like crying because

23:55

you were happy. Yeah.

23:57

Yeah, it's like a mate wedding. I would think

24:00

weddings were cheesy things. Like I was like weddings.

24:02

I mean, I have a wed I own a wedding

24:04

venue. You know, so we my gasper

24:07

and my husband and I we actually throw

24:09

weddings for a living. Um.

24:12

You know, he mostly runs that though, Um,

24:14

But I weddings

24:17

are beautiful things because it's like everyone who

24:19

you love is in one place and

24:21

you're celebrating love and it's

24:23

just like a beautiful thing. And I was like

24:26

an emotional wreck. And

24:28

that's a good thing though. That's amazing thing

24:30

was that when you when you got married and

24:33

had someone that you decided this would be your

24:35

partner. I'm assuming you guys will be together

24:38

for a while forever. I

24:40

hope in divorce rates and California

24:43

are high. Yeah. I live in New York,

24:45

so probably just as high in New York. But

24:48

let's let's assume you're gonna be together forever. I

24:50

don't know what the gay divorce rates are, Roger,

24:54

I don't know that. I don't. I only

24:56

know my parents and and the straight divorce

24:58

I'm familiar with that. Uma

25:01

gay rates may be different. You're right, I

25:03

don't know. There's probably enough data

25:05

out there. It's not because it's just and

25:08

are married. I will probably be revoked any day now.

25:10

Anyway, that's

25:13

not gonna happen. Let's let's

25:16

be positive you're gonna stay together. On

25:19

that day, did you feel like

25:22

that was the affirmation you needed in

25:26

terms of feeling valued? Yeah,

25:30

that was that

25:33

day was I always say it was like one of the greatest

25:35

days of my life. Yes, Um, I

25:39

did feel valued, and I did

25:41

feel that I had

25:44

so much love and support

25:46

around me, and I was like realizing

25:49

that and that's why I was crying so much. That's

25:51

a good feeling. Yeah.

25:53

I don't mean that he like replaced your

25:55

father or anything like that. I just mean someone

25:58

who's in close proximity to you, and on

26:00

a day to day you had that now

26:02

that you didn't have previously. Yeah,

26:05

it seems like that would be a reason

26:07

to cry. Yeah, yeah, there's

26:09

a long time coming. Yeah,

26:11

So now I understand why you know, and

26:13

now I love wedding. So now and what

26:16

I used to be. I was so jaded, and I would

26:18

go up. We have a wedding every Saturday at

26:20

our barn and Roxbury

26:22

Barn and upstate New York and

26:24

and I would you know. And now I go up

26:26

and I see all these people crying and joyful,

26:28

and I'm like, this is wonderful energy, this is

26:30

great. Would you consider

26:32

yourself someone who's positive? I'm

26:35

very positive. Yeah, I think I'm well,

26:37

I mean to a to an extent,

26:39

I'm I'm I'm pretty positive.

26:42

I'm pretty you know what it is, I'm

26:44

like childlike, I'm like a big kid.

26:46

Like I don't really you're

26:48

a I'm a I'm a baby. I don't feel

26:51

mature. I don't feel like an I don't feel like

26:53

an adult. I don't feel like you

26:55

know, I feel like, what about in this conversation? Do

26:57

you feel like a baby sort

26:59

of? Really? You see, you're much mature

27:01

than I am. I

27:05

swear, yeah, he's on my show, but trust

27:07

me that I don't think that's true. I

27:09

don't know. I've I have this

27:12

sort of childlike enthusiasm

27:14

for things, and I

27:16

think that's a good thing. Like I don't

27:19

really want to grow up. Always say like I'm like,

27:21

you know, that's why people ask me what's your

27:23

favorite Disney film? Yeah, ask me said, I'm like, I wasn't

27:25

really into Disney, but if I

27:27

had, it would probably be like Peter Pan because

27:30

I don't want to grow up either. Does the enthusiasm

27:33

for things or ideas

27:35

translate to enthusiasm for people? Yeah,

27:39

it depends on you know, I

27:42

get really enthusiastic about

27:46

when I'm making a film about

27:49

the subjects in

27:52

the film. Yeah,

27:54

and there are and I yeah, I get

27:57

you know, I get Yes, I get enthusiastic

27:59

about about people, ideas,

28:02

places. Has the work

28:05

back to that idea of affirmation?

28:07

Has the work you've done this far or feel

28:10

like when you look

28:12

back on it and the films you made,

28:15

do you feel validated

28:19

by them or the responses to them?

28:21

Do the responses validate your

28:23

experiences? Um?

28:26

For you as like a documentary filmmaker

28:28

at large, you know,

28:31

yes and no, it's for me

28:34

it's never enough. It's like a bottomless

28:36

pit that UM felt

28:38

so like, you know, so like when I want

28:41

the Oscar from Music Prudence, It's

28:43

like, that's great, you want an Oscar.

28:45

It's really exciting, But it was it was a duck short.

28:47

So it's just a short sure, and

28:50

then like let's before we move on,

28:52

let's not let's not gloss

28:54

over what happened there. And the

28:57

winner is music

29:02

by Prudence Roger, Ross Williams

29:05

and Eleanor Burkett. This

29:16

is amazing. Two

29:19

years ago when I got on an airplane

29:21

and went to Zimbabwe, I never imagine mess

29:23

wildest dreams that I'd end up here. This

29:26

is so exciting,

29:31

the classic thing you world

29:33

in which I wanted to finally get into this with

29:35

you and square it forever so you

29:37

never have to talk about this again and we'll link it to

29:39

everyone who interviews you in the future. Yeah,

29:42

about what happened? Good? Can

29:44

we do that? Um? Yeah?

29:47

Do you have faith in me that it's gonna be okay? Yeah?

29:50

Yeah, faith in you? I faith in you. It's um yeah

29:52

yeah. As much as I can, I can talk about

29:54

and don't break any legal boundaries.

29:56

Yes, So tell me what

29:58

happened there? UM,

30:01

I don't know. It was a situation of someone that that

30:03

that who was this woman? For one, Uh,

30:06

it was a neighbor who UM

30:09

lived in was a fulbright

30:12

and taught in in in Zimbabwe,

30:14

and UM I was looking for stories in Africa.

30:17

So she's like, you know, I know

30:19

this I heard of about. She gave me like a bunch

30:21

of story ideas, like she just sent

30:23

me. She's a journalists, so she sent me a bunch of story dudes.

30:25

And and I was like, oh,

30:28

this one sounds interesting. So I wrote to the

30:30

school and um,

30:33

and they sent me um

30:36

a mini DV tape of Prudence a

30:39

little interview they did um and

30:41

uh and her singing, and I

30:43

started crying watching the so

30:46

you know I'm connect. I see I started

30:49

crying and that the barometer

30:51

from when you like something, you start crying. Yeah,

30:54

okay, yeah, because I cried a

30:56

Life animated too when when Ron was

30:58

pitching me the idea. So I started crying and

31:01

um and I was like, oh my god. So I wrote

31:03

to the school and they started this dialogue. But then

31:06

I was like, oh wait a Zimbabwe. How am I going to

31:08

shoot there? So I um,

31:10

I went to um uh

31:12

this woman and his name might

31:14

will still not be said and

31:17

and I said, um that the name

31:19

is easily found online and

31:22

also can be searched as a video on YouTube,

31:24

and um

31:26

and I said, um,

31:29

I need how am I going to shoot in Zimbabwe,

31:32

and I like, it's it's illegal to

31:34

to to shoot in Zimbabwe. The Times

31:37

reporter was arrested and um and

31:39

um we came up with a plan to circum

31:42

yeah and um and so

31:45

yeah that's how that's how that started.

31:47

But then that relationship,

31:52

you know, sort of by

31:54

the time we sort of got through the

31:56

shooting and got to the editing phase,

31:58

it was sort of done. It was sort of

32:01

broken. What was the problem, Um,

32:04

just not different visions or I

32:07

don't know if it was different so much. I

32:09

don't know if different visions or it was it

32:12

was um, you know, I

32:14

don't want to say exactly, but um,

32:16

okay, well was it like a temperament thing? Yeah,

32:20

yes, yes, let's say that. The

32:23

one thing I'm confused about here, here's

32:25

my genuine confusion. It's not about controversy

32:28

at all. It's um her

32:31

description of it. When I watched the video yesterday,

32:33

I rewatched it. Um,

32:36

I'm not a fan of her. I'll put that on the record.

32:39

I don't I don't like or

32:41

she she gives out. But

32:43

something she said struck me. It didn't ring true

32:45

with what I know about you. When my experience

32:48

with you. Is that she

32:51

said you didn't talk for years.

32:54

She said you didn't talk from from the

32:56

project ending to like there

32:58

was a lawsuit, and then at

33:00

the Oscars you were sitting next to each other. And

33:03

even now you won't even say her name. I

33:06

don't even know her name. But

33:08

that seemed that didn't

33:10

fit with my idea of you. Was

33:12

there a reason you wouldn't it was is

33:15

the silence true for one? Well? No,

33:17

after after the um break,

33:20

there was no communication, um

33:23

uh. And there was a lawsuit. And after

33:26

the break, yes there was, there wasn't communication

33:28

on either part, but that was that was

33:30

um You know, the lawsuit was between many

33:33

different parties HBO and different

33:35

people, so it was um uh. And

33:37

that was sort of early into the editing

33:39

stage, so there was so I edited, went

33:42

through the whole edit of the film and

33:44

and everything before I even um

33:47

had that moment and you didn't want her input

33:49

on that. No, there was a

33:51

total break. There was a we

33:54

were not working together. And she said that

33:56

she said hi to you. She would say hi to you, and

33:58

you would just like ignore, that's

34:01

that's not true, that's not true. No, I

34:03

just can't that's that to me? That this is actually

34:05

where it comes from. Its like I don't see

34:08

that on kindness and you Oh no,

34:10

no, no, no, that's not that's that's

34:12

that's not true, you know. Um.

34:14

For me, I have to um,

34:18

I have to talk and communicate

34:21

and I want to have like an amazing working

34:24

relationship with everyone

34:27

who's we're working together on a project,

34:29

and these films are hard and

34:31

if, um, if I can't have

34:34

that, if there's if someone is difficult

34:36

or challenging in any way, UM, I

34:39

there's a certain point where I can't. I'm like,

34:41

I can't, I'm done. Doesn't compute,

34:43

it doesn't work, It doesn't work for me. Did

34:46

you see her coming down when

34:49

you were standing on stage giving your

34:51

speech. Did you see

34:53

her walking towards the stage? No,

34:56

because it's no not. I didn't

34:58

see her until the moment

35:01

she came up to the mic

35:03

and said, let the woman speak. I

35:06

that moment is so overwhelming. You

35:09

can imagine too, Um, you

35:12

it's it's so overwhelming,

35:15

and and and and I was so excited,

35:18

literally I was excited. So I was running

35:21

and cheering and high fiving people

35:24

because I because I had bonded with all these

35:26

people all week who had been on this journey with me,

35:28

the other filmmakers and

35:30

and and they were all so happy because

35:32

they were saying to me, the other filmmakers

35:34

were saying to me, you know, I know that I would

35:36

supposed to be rooting for myself, but I really want

35:38

you to win, you know, Like it was so great. We

35:41

had such a great you know, you know, the the

35:43

the other short filmmakers and

35:45

and so so we were I was high

35:47

fiving. Then I was nning down the aisle and

35:49

like I was like whoa. I was like and

35:52

um. And then it was like shock

35:55

because we because we had already you know, there

35:57

had been a when you do

36:00

the um uh

36:02

nominees lunch, which she wasn't at.

36:05

Actually they say you should

36:07

pick one. You have to pick one person and usually

36:09

the director to accept the

36:11

award and ask you have forty

36:14

seconds um uh, So

36:16

don't start thanking a lot of you know, they tell you

36:18

they go through all that with everyone,

36:21

with all the nominees. That's part of the nominees lunch,

36:23

so you know, um,

36:25

obviously it was the director and

36:28

then there's a lot of pr people and they're like, don't

36:30

worry about a thing. We have this all under

36:32

control. You know, they re assure you guys

36:34

like I don't know you, guys, I

36:36

don't know you. Probably they didn't know that woman.

36:39

Yeah, I'll say

36:41

the things you don't want to say. I don't worry. I got I

36:43

got your backgate, Roger, so

36:46

you. I mean, the moment is significant

36:49

um to me. The publicity

36:51

around it and the attention and

36:54

drew to

36:56

me is absurd, unnecessary

37:00

and illuminates nothing at all. M

37:04

What I think is significant is the emotional weight

37:07

behind working or

37:09

something for a long time and

37:11

then have someone literally

37:14

at the moment in which you are accepting this

37:17

honor this award.

37:19

And yes it's arbitrary, it's a fucking statue,

37:23

but I mean something, we

37:25

place value in things. That's how we've always done.

37:28

It's devastating. It is

37:30

devastating, and no

37:33

one could really understand how

37:36

devastating it was because people are like,

37:39

you just want an oscar, it doesn't matter.

37:42

But there was something so

37:44

devastating to me about it. And I was

37:46

in tears that

37:49

whole really kind of like that whole

37:51

night. I was in shock, and I was

37:53

in tears, and I was I

37:56

celebrated. Did you cry in front of her. No,

38:00

I was in shock. And

38:02

then, um, did you exchange any words with

38:04

her after that? No, when you go backstage

38:06

and you have to do press interviews

38:09

and the press interviews in these rooms

38:11

like the foreign press, in all these different press rooms.

38:13

But they're not watching the show, so

38:16

they didn't know what happened, so they didn't ask us one

38:18

question. I was like, how can this be?

38:21

How can they organize? How can they not

38:24

be watching it on their computers. They're all sitting

38:26

there, like a hundred of them with their laptops open

38:28

in a room. No one has a live stream. No,

38:30

they're not paying attention. They're writing. I know what they're

38:32

doing. No one asked us any questions about it. No one

38:35

even know until after So that not until

38:37

my phone rang and it was like, I

38:40

don't know Salon or whoever it was, and I

38:42

and I was talking to them that I um

38:45

that I realized that, you know, And

38:47

then and then and then even

38:49

then didn't quite sort

38:51

of register with me until the next morning,

38:54

when um, I think it was the Ryan

38:57

Seacrest show woke me up and said,

38:59

um, And its funny because it was an old friend of mine who

39:01

was He's like a press of the Ryan Strict Show and his because

39:03

like, you're the biggest story

39:05

of the Oscars. You gotta you gotta come on the show tonight.

39:08

And then I was like and then all hell broke

39:10

loose. It was like because then every my I

39:12

was like, how do all these people get my cell phone number? Was

39:14

kind of crazy. And then then all of

39:16

a sudden and all the pr people marketing

39:19

from HBO then get involved, and it's a

39:21

big call in a strategy, you know, and

39:23

it's like You're in the middle of this storm. And then

39:25

it was crazy because I

39:27

was like, I remember,

39:30

I had a m I had a meeting

39:32

at CIA that next

39:35

day. Um. And also

39:37

I don't know if you saw, but the New York Times was trailing

39:40

me that night. So there was an article in the style

39:42

section me holding the oscar saying Roger

39:44

Ross Williams has arrived and

39:46

and I was arriving at the Governor's Ball with Prudence,

39:49

and the next day I was going to

39:51

go and CIA was near the

39:53

hotel we were staying at and I was just

39:55

gonna walkum, and

39:58

they were like you can't. The hotel people

40:00

were like, you can't walk, And I was like why they're like, there's

40:02

tons of papara There was tons of

40:04

paparazzi and TMC and they

40:07

were all and the thing think about the papa

40:09

razzi, which is which I'm which is so

40:11

interesting, is they're so nice. So

40:13

they were like, Roger, how do you Roger?

40:16

Hey, Hi, Hey, hey hi Roger,

40:19

how do you feel? And I was looking for any

40:21

kind of like you know, like the press

40:23

people like you can't talk to them. You get

40:25

in the car, don't talk to the pr don't

40:27

talk to them. The paparazzi. It was like it

40:29

was so such an interesting It was like

40:31

a little tiny peek into the window

40:34

of celebrity. Right. I

40:36

imagine no documentary short filmmaker

40:39

has had that experience, No,

40:41

no, And you know, it

40:44

put me on the map in such a big way because

40:47

everyone wanted to talk about

40:49

it. Um you know, I'm I'm talking

40:51

like the funders and everyone

40:53

knew and people you know, I mean, that's

40:56

how my next film got made because a

40:58

major funder came up to me. A people

41:00

invited me to like you know, like retreats

41:02

and stuff. So I was at a retreat and someone

41:05

came up and said I was at the oscars,

41:07

and I saw what happened handled that so

41:09

well, and what are you working on next? And

41:12

that's how God loved Youganda started,

41:16

Does it feel like that was pity?

41:20

I felt no. I didn't feel like it was pity. I felt

41:22

like it was like, are they capitalizing on the

41:24

media circus? I don't know

41:27

if that was it as much as

41:29

they recognize me and they

41:31

were like, you

41:34

know, there's an incredible

41:36

amount of pressure, and

41:38

anyone you would have. I

41:41

was very much aware that

41:43

a billion people were watching, and I was

41:45

like, hold

41:47

it together, hold

41:50

your own and bring it back to Prudence in the

41:52

end. Got you've got to somehow final

41:54

way to jump in there, and that's what you do, bring it back to Prudence.

41:57

Because I had arranged for the cameras

41:59

to I wanted to bring Prudence to the stage if we won,

42:01

and I arranged for the cameras to be there filming

42:04

Prudence. And so I

42:06

had talked to the producers. I got their

42:08

earl to make sure the camera was set

42:11

up, that they had the right shot and so that Prudence

42:13

it would cut the Prince and so they got to cut

42:15

to Prudence. And I

42:17

think that that, you know, I

42:19

was getting so many like industry wise,

42:21

these people were like, Wow, that was

42:24

amazing, how you handle that. Wow,

42:26

you're increasing. It was just great. I was

42:28

getting all this attention and

42:31

now you're going back. I'm going

42:33

back, which is you

42:35

know again, yeah

42:38

and again. I wanted to get

42:40

back there to prove

42:43

something because I didn't get to make that

42:45

speech. And so I for

42:48

me, I was like, I'm

42:50

gonna get back there someday and

42:52

I'm gonna get to talk and um

42:55

and no one's gonna run up and interrupt

42:57

me. I'm gonna change

43:00

by my producer, Julie

43:02

Goldman is like the

43:04

most amazing price, Like she's the best producer.

43:07

Like I went to the best

43:09

producer in the documentary world. Truly,

43:12

every I said of it to everyone, who's the best producer

43:14

working today in documentary? I said,

43:17

Julie Goldman, Julie Goldman, ju McLeman. Everyone

43:19

told me that. And then so I went to Goldman. I was like,

43:21

I want to work with you. I want to work with the best. She's like, oh,

43:23

I don't know, I don't know what happened up there. And I

43:25

was like and I was like, um, you

43:27

know, and She's like it we were

43:30

on our fourth film together, two

43:33

shorts, two features, and

43:36

it's been like a dream and like and

43:40

I've had the most incredible creative

43:44

working experience with everyone

43:46

I've worked with now and I'm

43:49

like, Wow, this is what it's

43:51

like at another level, right, you

43:53

know. I was just that was my first film. I didn't know

43:55

anything. It's the people saying

43:58

you're too ambitious. This

44:00

woman interrupted you min speech. You

44:03

said, no, I'm not gonna

44:05

let this be the thing that people remember me by.

44:08

And I'm gonna work harder to get back there. In

44:11

the face of rejection or in the face

44:13

of something being taken away. This

44:17

is your go to response. That's

44:20

who I am. I Like, you

44:22

knock me down, I get back up and fight

44:24

harder. I've had to do that my

44:26

whole life. That's that's just that

44:29

is who I am. And

44:32

to come back in the feature category,

44:35

you know. But I'm gonna be back with the best

44:37

picture. I'm telling you, mark

44:39

my words. Um,

44:42

I just keep getting back up. I mean

44:44

I had to do that my whole life growing

44:46

up. I had to I had to ignore

44:48

the surroundings. I had to gnore the cards

44:51

I was dealt, and I had to fight and overcome

44:53

things. And I'm and I continue

44:56

and people are like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah,

44:58

yeah, yeah, I've heard that story or that story

45:01

overcoming. Um, but

45:03

that's my story and that's that

45:06

was my reality. And I'm gonna and then no matter

45:08

how many times people ca call me too ambitious

45:11

or um uh you

45:13

know, um oh

45:15

you know, yeah, he's he, I'm

45:18

out. I'm out here for a year, you

45:20

know, go into festivals and

45:22

meeting people and campaigning and screening and

45:25

and I and I

45:27

I do that because I have that drive. I have

45:29

that like little boy like Roger, a little

45:32

rejected boy like saying, don't

45:35

look past me. Do you think you'll be happy

45:37

if you win. I

45:40

will be very happy if I win, but

45:43

I will immediately start working on the next

45:45

goal, which would be to

45:47

win Best Picture. It could be another

45:50

seven years, but if

45:52

I lose, I will um dust

45:55

myself off and get back up and keep. You

45:57

know, we're all to be nominated, you know, every

46:01

level you get to. So when you to be nominated,

46:04

especially in this year and these

46:07

you know, an amazing slate of film Holmes

46:09

UM nominated. UM is an incredible

46:12

honor. I know that sounds like cheesy but that's like,

46:14

but like it really is. And I just wanted

46:17

to get nominated

46:21

and I was an honor you know, everything

46:23

was a shortlist. I was like, I just want

46:25

to be a shortlist and if I get the shortlist, I don't

46:27

need anything else. I don't need to be nominated. Then you get to

46:29

know, and then you're like, then you get nominated, I

46:31

just want to and then you I'm sorry, so of course you

46:34

want to win. Maybe you'd be lying if you said you didn't

46:36

want to win. But if I don't win, UM,

46:39

that's not gonna stop me. I'm not gonna you

46:41

know, I'm gonna keep making films

46:43

and I'm gonna keep telling the stories that

46:45

I think are important to tell. Yeah,

46:49

and um, and I think if

46:51

you tell stories you you personally

46:54

are passionate about that, you are connected

46:56

to that you that you cannot

46:59

only thing you can do is tell those stories.

47:01

Then you're gonna always win because

47:03

people will see that, people will understand

47:06

stand that, and that is

47:08

something that I, um

47:10

will always do. I know we have to go so

47:13

all all I wanted to say, you just

47:15

give a big eye roll. I know it's I

47:17

know, my publicist is it's okay, rushing

47:20

me out. I UM, I just want

47:22

you to know that whatever happens in

47:24

two the two weeks, it's yeah, it's like ten

47:27

days from now. Uh.

47:30

I hope you feel valued, man. Yeah.

47:34

I don't mean to get too emotional, but I

47:36

I hope you feel however

47:38

it shapes out. You don't

47:40

need the statute to

47:43

remind you that you're worth something. Yeah,

47:45

and I think that's

47:47

significant. Yeah, well, thank

47:49

you. And I I realize I do,

47:52

and I realize that, and I um

47:54

and uh, I'm okay. Now,

47:56

I'm okay. You know I'll

47:59

be okay regardless. Okay, good. Thank

48:02

you so much for coming on the show. Yeah, absolutely,

48:10

well. There it is special. Thanks to Teresa

48:12

di Martino and the folks at the Orchard, Margaret

48:15

Gordon and Rebecca Fisher. Also

48:17

Disney for letting us record in

48:19

some makeshift employee

48:22

type library. I don't know what it was, but it

48:24

was very comfortable, and we thank you for

48:26

letting us recording episode of the podcast.

48:29

There. You can watch Roger's latest

48:31

film, Life Animated over on Amazon

48:33

Prime Now, and if all goes well,

48:36

you may see Roger on your television the night of

48:38

the Oscars Sunday, February twenty

48:40

sixth, accepting a golden statue

48:47

people people

48:50

who need. If

48:54

you enjoy today's episode at Roger, you may

48:56

enjoy past conversations with documentarians

48:59

like Margaret Brown, Steve James,

49:01

or Bill and Turner Ross smart

49:04

insightful filmmakers working today. Also,

49:07

if you thought the last forty five minutes was

49:09

time well spen, wasn't horrible, was

49:12

fairly above average, do consider

49:14

writing a review of the podcast on iTunes.

49:17

I've noted it in the past repeatedly. I'm

49:19

sure people are tired of hearing about it at

49:21

this point. I'm certainly tired of saying

49:23

it. But all the same reviews

49:26

that are even one or two sentences long, even

49:28

a few words and clicking

49:30

those stars really does help

49:33

new people find the podcast, and

49:35

we appreciate your support on that front. Speaking

49:38

of you can subscribe to the podcast

49:40

on iTunes, SoundCloud, or

49:42

your favorite podcasting app. If you want to drop

49:44

me a line about anything in the show, positive,

49:46

negative, ambivalent, feel free to do

49:48

so at Sam at talk easypod

49:51

dot com. We're on Twitter,

49:53

Facebook, and Instagram at talk easypod

49:56

dot com, as well as our website

49:58

www dot talk easypod dot

50:00

com. Our music this Week, as

50:03

it is every week, is by Jin Sang

50:05

and Vanilla. Our executive producer

50:07

is David Chen, graphic by Ian

50:09

Jones, illustrations by Krishna

50:11

Chanoy. Our associate producer is

50:13

Valerie et and Hoffer, and the show

50:16

is produced by Nora Knight. I'm

50:18

Samforgoso. Thank you so much for listening

50:20

to Talk Easy. I'll see you next week.

50:32

You may be one of the first people

50:35

to come on the show that has also listened

50:38

to the show in the past. I

50:40

love the show. Yeah, well you

50:42

were, I don't know you're You're

50:45

such a good interview I mean, like you just you

50:48

just delve, delve so deep

50:51

into um into

50:53

people's lives and their stories and their creative

50:55

process and it's just like and

50:57

I'm not even a podcast listener, Like I'll

50:59

listen to a lot of podcasts, and I just Amy

51:02

now addicted.