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1:00

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apply. See website for details. Hello,

1:41

everyone, and welcome to Talk Nerdy.

1:43

Today is Monday, April 1st, 2024,

1:48

and I'm the host of the show, Cara Santa

1:50

Maria. And as always, before we

1:52

dive into this week's episode, I want

1:54

to thank those of you who make

1:56

Talk Nerdy possible. Remember, the

1:58

show is and will always. be 100%

2:00

free to download as long as

2:02

I've got it on the air.

2:05

I want to thank those of you who

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offset the cost of making this show by

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supporting it week after week. If

2:11

you're interested in pledging your support, all

2:14

you've got to do is visit patreon.com

2:17

slash talknerdy. You can pledge

2:19

on an episodic basis. This

2:22

week's top patrons include Daniel

2:24

Lang, David J. E. Smith,

2:27

Mary Neva, Brian Holden, David

2:29

Compton, Gabrielle F. Jaramillo, Joe

2:31

Wilkinson, Pasquale Gelati, Riva Keith,

2:33

Ulrika Hagman, Allison Quartermunch, Antti

2:37

Asar, oh gosh, there's

2:39

so many interesting names

2:41

here, Antti Vako-Rosti, Benjamin

2:44

Blue, Chris Redinger, Krister

2:46

Jansen, Doug Petipierre, Frisso,

2:50

Gray Gorman, Jeffrey Sewell,

2:54

Jim Turman, Michael Davis,

2:56

Roy Adams, Victor, and

2:58

Wolf Witt. Thank you all so

3:01

very, very much. All

3:03

right. So this week

3:05

I had the opportunity to chat

3:08

with Dr. Julia Serrano. So

3:12

Julia earned her PhD

3:14

in biochemistry and molecular

3:17

biophysics from Columbia and

3:19

worked as a researcher

3:21

in genetics, evolution, and

3:23

developmental biology. She

3:26

now mostly works as

3:28

a writer, performer, and

3:30

activist, and she has

3:32

written several books including

3:35

Outspoken, Excluded, Sexed Up, and

3:37

Whipping Girl. We're going to talk a

3:39

bit about Whipping Girl because it's in

3:41

its third edition now, but

3:44

most of her work is

3:46

sort of in the genderqueer

3:48

and feminism activism space. Whipping

3:51

Girl's subtitle is A

3:54

Transsexual Woman on Sexism and

3:56

the Scapegoating of Femininity. So

3:59

a lot of the work work is sort of in

4:01

the world of transgender

4:04

activism. And we're going to

4:06

dive into a million different

4:08

topics and learn an awful

4:11

lot. And so yeah, without any

4:13

further ado, here she is Dr.

4:15

Julia Borano. Well,

4:20

Julia, thank you so much for joining me

4:22

today. Sure, thanks for having

4:24

me. We are recording

4:27

on this dreary California Saturday. So

4:31

you're in NorCal and I'm in SoCal and it happens to

4:33

be raining in both places, right? Yeah, I

4:35

mean, we've had a lot of rain. We

4:38

often have rainy, I mean, obviously we

4:40

have drought issues as a state more

4:42

generally, but we've had a

4:44

particularly rainy winter so

4:46

far. So we're in March, so that will

4:48

end soon. So

4:50

I'm really excited to chat with you. And I have,

4:53

as is my way, I don't have any questions in

4:55

front of me. I have one of your books in

4:58

front of me. You've written several. And

5:00

I really don't have a roadmap

5:02

for how I plan for this

5:04

conversation to go. There are so

5:07

many different twists and turns we

5:09

could take, but I think

5:11

maybe to start because ostensibly once

5:13

upon a time my show started

5:15

as a science show, maybe

5:18

that's where we begin because you

5:20

yourself are a biologist.

5:23

That's sort of how your

5:26

career blossomed in your

5:28

career journey began. So maybe that's

5:30

where we start our story. What

5:33

do you think? Sure, yeah, that's great, yeah. All

5:35

right, tell me a little bit about like what you studied in

5:37

school and sort of where

5:40

your academic career took you. Sure,

5:43

so I was always interested

5:46

in science as a kid growing up, but

5:49

I didn't know exactly what I wanted to

5:51

do. And then I

5:54

eventually chose to major in biology

5:56

in college because of the

5:58

very first year of my career. various science courses

6:00

I had had, I enjoyed biology the

6:02

most. And so I did that.

6:05

And then in college,

6:07

of the classes I had, the

6:10

one that I enjoyed the most was

6:12

biochemistry, which at the time it was,

6:14

I would describe it, I had a lot of, it

6:16

was my first introduction to a lot of

6:19

molecular biology, thinking about

6:21

DNA and RNA and

6:23

proteins and all that. And

6:25

so I applied

6:27

to grad school for that. And I ended up in

6:30

Columbia University. And

6:34

there, particularly a

6:36

lot by joining, we did a lot of molecular biology as

6:38

far as our day to

6:40

day techniques. But the focus of

6:42

the lab was more developmental biology. And

6:45

the way that I explain developmental

6:47

biology for people who maybe aren't

6:49

in person such things is

6:52

every animal starts out as

6:54

one cell that divides and becomes many

6:57

different types of cells. So

6:59

at the end, you have skin cells and muscle

7:01

cells and nerve cells and

7:04

so on. And so developmental biology,

7:06

in a general sense,

7:08

is trying to figure out how

7:10

these developmental processes happen. And

7:15

for people who aren't as interested

7:17

in basic research, actually

7:19

a lot of developmental genes that are involved

7:22

in developmental biology actually play

7:24

a lot of roles in, for instance,

7:26

cancer, when things go

7:28

awry with them. So basically, I

7:31

did that. And then I came out to

7:34

Berkeley, University of California Berkeley,

7:36

to do my postdoc. And

7:38

a lot of the work I was doing, again, it was developmental

7:41

biology and genetics in mostly fruit

7:43

flies. And I worked on

7:45

a couple different projects there. And then

7:48

after that, I was a research specialist for a number

7:50

of years in

7:52

a lab that did Evo Devo, which is

7:56

looking at developmental biology, but

7:58

doing a lot of comparing and contrasting. Between

8:00

on. Different closely related

8:02

species and set of this case. On.

8:05

Over there lab we are watching

8:07

but the particular arthropod species or

8:09

crustacean. And comparing how genes

8:12

that say work. Yeah, particular

8:14

way in fruit flies. There's a lot

8:16

more known about for flies because of

8:18

it being a model organism and comparing

8:20

interesting. How on analogues?

8:23

Of those on genes are in

8:25

the summer Organism fill basically about

8:27

it with my trajectory that U

8:30

C. Berkeley between Microsoft and as

8:32

a recent special. Says F about

8:35

seventeen years on and I

8:37

am no longer doing that

8:39

mostly on. It was

8:41

a mixture of i have everything

8:43

was going really well as my

8:45

writing and also I have my

8:48

p eyes ramp. Was. Ending and

8:50

I had a to your head south that

8:52

when the for and his arm he might

8:54

not have the money to keep me. So

8:56

that's when I kind of transposons says full

8:58

time writer. Arm. Ends. Doing

9:01

that and doing speaking and things like that.

9:04

And so talk to me about

9:07

that. Signed is.

9:10

That movement while you were

9:12

still working in the lab

9:14

into starting to give talks,

9:16

ensued doing more writing and

9:18

into kind of like finding

9:20

a of voice both from

9:22

sort of an activist but

9:25

also a memoir and will

9:27

sit still a very. Educational.

9:31

Kind of scientific perspective. How

9:33

did you start to say

9:35

okay, I have a voice

9:37

that I think people. Need to

9:39

hear. Yourself.

9:42

Something that also gradually evolved.

9:44

So I always on the

9:46

had extracurricular activities his his

9:48

arm Bolivars the and I

9:51

was doing biology in grad

9:53

school and person can everything.

9:55

Ominously my original trade about

9:58

out. Let. Why

10:00

is music. On. And

10:02

so I've played. On the band and wrote

10:04

songs and I was. Doing that through

10:06

you know, grad school and Microsoft

10:08

and around the time since Two

10:10

Thousand and One is when I

10:13

transitioned. I'm so I. I'm

10:15

transgender and census and from how

10:17

the female and arm it was

10:20

around that time that I a

10:22

had some stories that wanted to

10:24

tell that I hadn't really shared.

10:27

With the world before them

10:29

on his especially for people

10:31

who worked around back then

10:33

especially and like. The nineteen nineties.

10:35

You know? there were. There. Were

10:37

trans people but I'm. There

10:40

wasn't a lot of public awareness on.

10:42

there is a lot more Sigma. Back

10:45

then and so I basically kept

10:47

a lot of that. You

10:49

know, There are things I said

10:52

that some people close to my life,

10:54

but it was around that time I

10:56

wanted six percent more and so am

10:58

I started doing actually slam poetry because

11:00

my partner at the time. With

11:03

the Co has said the Berkeley Poetry

11:05

Slam. I started out playing flam Pounds

11:07

and visitors are trans. Dams and then

11:09

I started doing more work. Isn't

11:11

activists? I'm a trans

11:14

activists mostly and. So.

11:16

Started writing essays, And

11:18

then I have. His.

11:20

Essays. Kind of evolved and

11:23

I eventually but or that editor

11:25

who was editor for my first book.

11:27

On Weapon girl. With

11:30

came out in two thousand and

11:32

seven and so. Basically.

11:35

By that point, It was a very

11:37

gradual process where before I knew I didn't

11:39

set out wanting to write a book on

11:41

that. I was really immersed in a lot

11:44

of activism and thinking a lot about. Ah,

11:49

Especially at that time trying to

11:51

make sense as you move through

11:53

the world in one particular way.

11:55

Moving through the world are people.

11:58

Perceive. Me and presumed I'm. Now to

12:00

the very on during expensive all

12:03

a sudden I'm having the world

12:05

proceeds from be a few the

12:07

very different way. I'm once

12:09

I transition the before. Understood

12:12

me to be female but then also

12:15

dealing with a lot of the way

12:17

in west of people Present yourself Sander

12:19

I'm. They'll be some presumptions they

12:21

make about you, but when you're transgender of the

12:23

this whole new set of ways in which people

12:26

the a new and so it's just very immersed

12:28

in thinking about all this that. On.

12:30

Or went into the book so. Said.

12:34

I guess the thing the more general.

12:36

Thing is as always the distinct stuff

12:38

outside of science on his sister specific.

12:42

Focus of what I was

12:44

doing changed. It's

12:47

so interesting too because is almost

12:49

dislike fool or at as an

12:51

you know an outsider. I'm not you.

12:53

I don't live your life, I'm you know, kind of

12:55

meeting. You for the first time

12:57

today. I see almost in some

13:00

ways this full circle observed a

13:02

journey where you know you say.

13:04

Ah, all this stuff outside of

13:07

science that you were doing all

13:09

these kind of like extra curricular

13:12

years And of course we think

13:14

about this very personal experience of.

13:17

Femininity and of Feminism and

13:19

the stories that you tell

13:21

in your book about. You

13:25

know sexism and about

13:28

trans phobia and these

13:30

different experiences of of.

13:34

Womanhood, And

13:36

yet. Now of

13:38

course in at least of

13:40

your website in a portion

13:43

of the works that you

13:45

do has sort of brought

13:47

back that expert that you

13:49

have in biology to help

13:52

educate people about the trans

13:54

experience from a biological perspective.

13:56

And I think it's really.

13:59

i mean A, I think it's sad

14:01

in some ways that that has become

14:04

such a conversation. I see

14:06

it all the time in

14:08

science communication. Anytime

14:11

there is an

14:13

affirming conversation that's had on

14:15

the podcast, you get this

14:18

rash of emails of people being like, can

14:20

you explain to me how this works? It's

14:22

like, oh my God, why are we still

14:24

here? I get that the

14:26

education is necessary. I

14:28

just think it's so interesting that what

14:30

once was sort of, or continues to

14:32

be this quote unquote extracurricular is

14:35

so, or can be so informed

14:37

by what was always your core

14:39

work that there really is a

14:41

sort of dovetailing

14:43

there. And so I'm

14:46

curious, maybe you could share a little

14:48

bit about how your work as

14:51

a biologist has informed

14:53

your work as an activist, for example. Sure,

14:57

yeah. And

14:59

that all dovetails, I think, in a couple of

15:01

different ways. So

15:06

I mean, I think part of it was as

15:08

a trans person, especially

15:11

growing up as a trans child back

15:13

when a lot of it I kept

15:15

to myself for a while. And then

15:17

I started learning more and reading more

15:19

and started

15:22

becoming more involved in trans

15:24

communities. And a lot of that

15:27

basically came down to a situation

15:29

where people take a lot of aspects

15:32

of sex, gender and sexuality for granted. And

15:35

I wasn't able to, because I was having

15:38

this very different experience. And

15:40

so I think part of what was always going on

15:42

for me, I feel like it was kind of

15:44

an outsource of being a scientist

15:47

to some degree is looking at the world and being

15:49

like, I wonder how that works. I wonder

15:51

why that happened. And

15:53

so I was definitely doing a

15:55

lot of questioning and trying

15:57

to figure out Gender.

16:00

Sexuality and frankness. Basically

16:02

for myself. And.

16:05

Then when as I start doing more

16:07

activism, I. There was a.

16:09

Com. And particularly when I was

16:12

writing Weapon Girl, there was still the

16:14

sense that I'm. You. Know.

16:17

Discussions. About Hands People was the

16:19

type of thing that they'd bring in

16:21

says the quote unquote expert who would

16:23

be. Some psychiatrists

16:25

who I don't like a physician

16:28

or some say he says yeah.

16:30

I mean the end And it

16:32

started out on. And

16:34

I think particularly. Because of

16:37

the fact that. Friends

16:39

be boston seat and affirming terror

16:41

as can be. Hormones are sometimes

16:43

surgeries on I think because of

16:45

that. It. Makes it

16:47

really easy for their to

16:50

be medicalization. of trans

16:52

people and that was very very

16:54

prevalence. In. Addition to the

16:56

idea of people years your curiosity.

16:58

Let's explain you and a lot

17:00

of the it's like explanations throughout.

17:02

The twentieth century all involve the

17:05

Us being some kind of developmental

17:07

anomaly. You are some kind of,

17:09

you know, mental pathology. On.

17:12

So. I was insisted

17:15

in I've I actually ended up

17:17

reading reading a lot about work.

17:20

On. To try to understand

17:22

it. And then in and whipping

17:24

Girl I had a whole chapter

17:26

called Pathological Science on. that is

17:28

kind of my critiques of lot

17:30

of a lot of that work.

17:32

I'm. So. Was very useful. In

17:35

that sense, And

17:37

so. So so part of it

17:40

is like trying to figure out

17:42

what's happening. were generally I also

17:44

think centered sexuality are about as

17:46

multi. Disciplinary as. Any.

17:48

Subjects that exists on.

17:51

There's obviously some biology.

17:53

That's going on. Ah, but

17:55

there's. You know, a lot of. In

17:58

a sociologist cycle. I

18:00

am people who are

18:02

stunning Gender studies or

18:04

or clear studies. Each.

18:07

Person might bring a little bit something else.

18:09

To the conversation. And

18:11

so. For. Me while while

18:14

some of the work I've done the

18:16

the Ball Z part has helped in

18:18

that has a scientists I could read

18:20

a lot of these his papers and

18:22

and make sense of is going on

18:24

on. Because

18:27

as able to get through the jar

18:29

again or I said understand the experiments

18:31

they were doing and may be what

18:33

some the problems were on but also

18:35

I'd I found that I was kind

18:37

of absorb the lot of other different

18:39

fields on. that has also been really

18:41

important for me. the kind of understand

18:43

not says. Why? Trans people? Just

18:45

which is one question. Which

18:47

isn't necessarily in my mind them as

18:50

census and question. Ah, a more

18:52

interesting question is, why do people perceive

18:54

and three and interpret trans people the

18:56

way they do? And for that, I've

18:58

been able to draw from a lot

19:00

of different. Kind of fields.

19:03

Of study. Yeah. It's

19:05

it's. interesting how in some

19:07

ways I feel like societal

19:09

leads. There is this real

19:11

signed up. On. Is

19:13

the biology of socks and

19:16

almost a confusion between sex

19:18

and gender? and in some

19:21

ways. Your. Expertise

19:24

in biology yes is

19:26

important. To me it out to

19:28

be able to teach people about. Biological.

19:32

Sex. But really also to

19:34

teach people how little bearing

19:36

or how basically no bearing

19:38

it has on gender. And

19:40

you know it's like knowing

19:43

a lot about biology is

19:45

helpful to educate why this

19:47

is not necessarily. A biological

19:49

quests and he almost needs.

19:51

indo the biology to know why the

19:54

biology is not really relevant to the

19:56

question of gender because it's so fascinating

19:58

how many people get hung up on

20:01

the biological question when it comes

20:03

to gender. Do you find that

20:05

as well? Yeah.

20:08

I think this comes in, I

20:10

think there are multiple different angles that

20:13

people sometimes take into this. So

20:15

I think the most basic one is we tend,

20:19

and I say we, I mean like human beings, like

20:22

one kind

20:25

of one bias

20:28

or mindset that we often have,

20:31

is often called essentialism, which

20:33

is kind of the idea if there are

20:35

different groups of things, particularly if we view

20:37

those groups as natural in some way or

20:39

another, that we tend to believe

20:41

that they share some kind of magical essence

20:43

with one another. Yeah.

20:45

Like that they're not actually just

20:47

constructs that we design, like develop

20:50

that they're somehow naturally

20:52

formed. And

20:54

then we stumbled upon them as opposed to us

20:56

saying, hmm, I see things and I'm going to

20:58

put them in these arbitrary buckets. Exactly.

21:01

Yeah. And so I think a lot of,

21:04

I think that's part of the reason why

21:06

people want to, people who believe in essentialism

21:08

kind of either

21:10

they'll go to God, they'll say, well, God

21:12

made men and women differently. And I don't

21:14

know as a scientist how to argue against

21:16

that other than I disagree. But

21:19

a lot of people want to go to biology and

21:21

they're like, oh, it must be chromosomes. It must be

21:23

this, must be that. And

21:26

in actuality, essentialism completely

21:29

doesn't work with biology because,

21:33

you know, and I

21:36

go into this, I should say, I recently

21:39

put out a video. It's like a talk length

21:41

video on YouTube. It's called

21:44

Trans People and Biological Sex, What the

21:46

Science Says. And I

21:48

kind of go through the

21:50

many different arguments about this because they've

21:54

not only existed a long time,

21:56

but they've become especially. relevant

22:00

because of the fact that a lot

22:03

of anti-trans activists will

22:05

use biological sex as

22:07

a way to kind of deny trans

22:09

people's experiences. Yeah,

22:12

and existence, sadly. Yes.

22:15

And so I go into the

22:18

many problems with

22:20

that. So essentialism is a

22:22

lot of times people are driven

22:24

by essentialism. Sometimes people are driven

22:26

by a sex gender distinction that

22:29

believes that gender is complete,

22:31

just socialization and nothing more than

22:34

that. And so if you

22:36

believe that, then trans people once

22:38

again must be deluded into thinking that

22:40

we're the wrong sex. And

22:44

I explained why that's not true as

22:46

well. But I think some

22:48

of the main touching points where I think

22:51

biology has really influenced me is, for one

22:53

thing, recognizing that sex, so

22:57

there's sex, gender and sexuality, and

22:59

that these are multifaceted

23:01

traits. So there are a

23:03

lot of different sex traits that might not all line

23:05

up within the same person. In

23:08

addition, there's generally

23:11

understood distinction between gender

23:13

identity, which is kind of the

23:15

gender you understand yourself to be, gender

23:18

expression, which is whether you express yourself in

23:21

a masculine or feminine manner, and sexual

23:24

orientation. And

23:26

that these can differ from one another and

23:29

differ from our physical sex. And

23:31

so that's one way in which biology

23:33

is more complex than people often

23:38

presume it is, particularly the people

23:40

who have an essential view, they have a

23:42

very simplistic idea. And so it's like, well,

23:44

actually, we know that sex, gender and sexuality

23:47

are way more complicated than that. Another

23:50

thing is they almost I feel

23:52

like sorry to interject, but I feel like a lot

23:54

of times and again, I think it's a form of

23:57

sort of like exclusion and bullying and just...

24:01

hate, but a lot of times everything is just

24:03

painted with this very like gay brush,

24:06

like oh, it's

24:08

just all gay. And somehow that's

24:10

like supposed to be pejorative. Like

24:12

there's this real confusion about, you

24:15

know, somebody who's non-binary or somebody

24:17

who's asexual or somebody who is

24:21

transgender, whether they're trans feminine or

24:23

trans masculine, that they're just all

24:25

gay. And it's like, what does

24:27

that even mean? It always

24:30

blows my mind when that's like this very

24:32

simplistic view that I hear from people who

24:34

are sort of, you know,

24:36

transphobic or trans exclusionary. Yeah.

24:39

And, and, and the way I

24:41

kind of described this as, so that basically,

24:43

that kind of thinking is basically

24:46

what was historically

24:48

in the late 1900s, sorry, late 1800s

24:50

or late 19th scientists

24:55

around that time believed in sexual inversion.

24:57

And that was their

25:00

theory to describe

25:02

anyone who we would now

25:04

call under the LGBTQ plus

25:07

umbrella. And they

25:09

thought it was basically, you

25:12

know, feminine souls or

25:14

brains and masculine and male people

25:16

and vice versa. Right. And so

25:19

basically we've been historically lumped together

25:21

and a lot of these ideas continue

25:24

to persist throughout

25:26

the 20th century, which

25:29

is just a very simple way of, of

25:31

thinking about it. But now it's kind of

25:33

understood, you know, most experts, people

25:36

who study gender

25:38

and sexuality will say, well, you know,

25:40

we know that gender identity is not

25:42

the same as gender expression, is not the

25:45

same as sexual orientation and

25:47

so on, but people tend to

25:49

reduce it to that. It's kind of

25:51

like, if you have an essentialist view,

25:54

then that's the easiest way to make sense

25:56

of anyone who doesn't fit that view to just

25:58

be like, Oh, well, There's

26:01

a group of people who are,

26:03

you know, would have been called

26:05

inverts by scientists in the late

26:07

1800s, or nowadays people just say,

26:09

oh, they're all just gay. And

26:12

then that creates a lot of misinformation where

26:14

a lot of anti-trans activists will

26:16

paint a

26:20

perceived increase in the

26:22

number of trans people as, oh,

26:24

well, those people would have been

26:26

gay or lesbian, but like, you

26:28

know, now, you know, you're

26:31

taking these gay and lesbian people and you're

26:33

turning them trans. And right

26:35

because of mass hysteria or something like, yeah,

26:37

and they'll come up. Yeah, and they'll come

26:40

up with lots of different theories for this.

26:42

In fact, a lot of my writings against

26:44

this, a lot

26:46

of my writings these days against

26:48

kind of the anti-trans

26:51

activist movement is confronting

26:53

a lot of these real simplistic ideas.

26:55

But the truth is you can just look

26:57

at statistics and the number

27:00

of people who identify as

27:03

lesbian or gay or bisexual

27:05

or transgender or asexual, those

27:09

are all increasing. And

27:11

it's largely believed that they're increasing because

27:13

of there

27:15

not being as much stigma as they used to

27:17

be. When I was a kid, there was not

27:19

a single out queer person.

27:22

Right. All of my high school,

27:24

not a single one. In college,

27:26

there was one out gay person.

27:28

Like, that was it. Because

27:31

back then, you know, if you

27:33

did come out, you could be ostracized

27:35

and people in your

27:38

life wouldn't have anything to do with you. You could

27:40

be fired from work. This

27:43

is still back when

27:45

there weren't really anti-nondiscrimination

27:48

policies. And a lot

27:50

of that stigma has lifted. And that's why

27:52

more people are allowed nowadays

27:54

to say, oh, I'm trans or oh, I'm

27:56

gay and so on. know,

28:00

I can't help but feel like

28:02

there is this staunch

28:06

correlation between

28:08

sort of the progress that's

28:10

been made. In some

28:13

ways, I, you know, obviously we could look at

28:15

it and say that there's been leaps and bounds

28:17

and just like massive progress and other ways we

28:20

can be like, jeez, we've got so far

28:22

to go. But between the

28:24

progress that's been made, between the,

28:28

sort of what we were just

28:30

talking about, this like essentialism and

28:32

this, what did you call it

28:34

that like inversion? Is that

28:36

the term that you used? Yeah,

28:39

I mean, so sexual inversion, it was

28:41

basically a theory that was used to

28:43

try to explain the existence

28:46

of queer people and it's

28:48

just basically, it blows down to

28:50

like masculine, masculinized

28:53

brains and women's bodies

28:55

or feminized brains and

28:58

male bodies. Right, okay. So this

29:00

like inversion theory, like when I

29:02

think about this oversimplified,

29:05

really cruel and

29:11

ignorant kind

29:14

of explanation for this very

29:16

complex and rich and beautiful

29:18

experience, I can't help but

29:21

see a parallel with

29:23

just the patriarchy, with just

29:25

this very kind of toxic

29:27

and fragile masculinity that

29:30

has historically been maintained

29:33

and that all of these experiences

29:36

are just like threats to this

29:39

patriarchy and anything that threatens the patriarchy

29:41

is seen as aberrant and dangerous and

29:44

we've got to shut it down and

29:46

we've got to make fun of it

29:48

and we've got to minimize it and

29:51

we've got to subjugate it and if

29:53

we don't, oh no, the patriarchy can

29:55

fall apart and we don't want that

29:57

because we like this power we have.

30:00

Yeah, definitely. And a

30:02

Whooping Girl, and kind of

30:05

like one of the ideas that I forwarded there because

30:08

I really wanted to talk about, especially

30:11

a lot of the transphobia that I as

30:13

a trans woman, or that a lot

30:16

of other people in the trans feminine

30:18

spectrum experience, you could call it transphobia,

30:20

like people are insulting you or mocking

30:22

you for being trans. But in my

30:24

experience, almost all of that mocking had

30:27

like, was infused

30:29

with misogyny. Like,

30:32

it wasn't totally. Yeah, it's

30:34

not just that I'm bad, because,

30:36

you know, I transitioned, it's because I want

30:39

to be a woman or I want to be

30:41

feminine, right? Right. That anything we

30:43

relate societally as a feminine

30:46

trait is somehow weaker than

30:48

less than less, you know,

30:50

whatever valued in our

30:52

society. Yeah. And

30:54

so, and the way I

30:56

discussed it in Whooping Girl was I talked

30:59

about how like, you know,

31:01

forms of sexism that feminists have been talking

31:03

about for a long time, you can kind

31:05

of put them into different groups. And so

31:07

one, I call traditional sexism, which is the

31:10

idea that female

31:12

nests and femininity are inferior

31:14

to or less legitimate than

31:16

male nests and masculinity. But

31:18

in order to keep that hierarchy

31:21

intact, you can't have people blurring

31:23

any lines. And so that's

31:25

why there's oppositional sex of them, which

31:27

is kind of this idea that, you

31:30

know, men and women are

31:32

inherently mutually exclusive,

31:35

different groups

31:37

of people who have completely separate

31:40

sets of aptitudes and abilities.

31:43

And so a lot of transphobia and

31:45

homophobia, like a lot of that would

31:47

fall under this umbrella of oppositional sexism.

31:50

And in describing that,

31:54

the way that I put it is that, you

31:56

know, men are superior and

31:59

women are indestructible. your hierarchy only works

32:02

if you can make sure there's nobody

32:04

blurring any of the lines between those

32:06

two categories. And

32:09

for that reason, I think it's really

32:12

important for all of us, if you're

32:14

a straight, cisgender feminist,

32:16

you still in your interest

32:19

to be, to oppose oppositional sexism

32:21

and to work in

32:24

alliance with LGBTQIA

32:26

plus people. And

32:29

so I think that works both ways as well.

32:33

A hundred percent. I think you even

32:35

see this within, you know, I often

32:38

in my work as a psychotherapist,

32:40

I will

32:44

recommend not just my cisgender male

32:46

clients, but especially my cisgender male

32:49

clients, I'll recommend that they watch

32:51

this documentary that was made

32:53

by Jennifer Siebel Newsom called The

32:56

Mask You Live In about this

32:58

kind of toxic

33:02

masculinity that we impose

33:04

upon our young boys, that there's

33:07

this pressure not to feel things,

33:09

there's this pressure to have this

33:11

performative masculinity that is so, it's

33:13

basically just the patriarchy in action

33:15

and it's so incredibly crushing for

33:17

these young boys. It's

33:20

so painful for them. And

33:22

I think it's one of those things that we

33:24

don't talk enough about the fact that sort

33:26

of the patriarchy in action

33:29

harms cisgender men.

33:33

I don't want to say as much

33:35

as it harms, you know, transgender women

33:37

or cisgender women or even

33:39

transgender men. I don't think it harms them as

33:41

much because they walk around with like inordinate privilege,

33:44

but it is harmful to them. For sure

33:46

it's harmful to them. And I

33:48

don't think we talk about that enough. Yeah,

33:51

yeah, and yeah, I 100% agree

33:54

with that. I think

33:58

the way and so I don't want to. to compare my

34:01

experience with that of like a cisgender

34:03

boy, I would

34:05

say I had the experience of kind of being

34:07

perceived that way. And so I

34:09

definitely face those same

34:11

pressures and there is like

34:14

a really huge difference once you

34:16

start reaching the age of

34:18

puberty, like when you're a young kid,

34:20

you know, like people encourage you to do

34:23

boy things or to not do girl things,

34:25

but there's still a little bit more, you're

34:27

allowed to be a kid, you're allowed to

34:30

express yourself in certain ways. And then all

34:32

of a sudden, like right when, you know,

34:35

adolescence happens, it's like you're a boy

34:37

and you, you know, you

34:40

can't express yourself, you can't, you

34:44

know, there is this aloof quality

34:46

that I remember like, I

34:49

remember doing because like, that's just, I

34:52

felt like I had to do it to survive,

34:54

which is what a lot of teenage boys do,

34:57

probably for similar reasons, like you need to be

34:59

aloof and you need to act like you don't

35:01

really care about anything, you can't really express how

35:04

you feel about certain things. And

35:07

that definitely feeds into a lot

35:09

of the toxic masculinity stuff that

35:12

happens. So for instance, you

35:15

know, like during teenage years, like a lot

35:17

of, you know, girls I knew would talk

35:19

about, oh, you know, I have a crush

35:21

on this boy, or they would talk about

35:23

their feelings for people, where if you were

35:25

a teenage boy, you were not allowed to

35:27

do that, like you weren't allowed to say,

35:29

Oh, you know, I have this

35:31

crush on this girl, like you couldn't really

35:33

do that. You would and so like, everything

35:36

got reduced to Oh, she's hot. Yeah,

35:38

like I'm a fucker. Yeah,

35:40

yeah, exactly. And, and that's

35:42

really harmful for everyone involved.

35:44

Obviously, that's

35:46

that harm creates attitudes

35:49

in boys, and some boys who

35:51

will eventually, you know, harass, harass

35:56

or, you know, sexual abuse

35:58

women, because They've

36:00

been taught to have this attitude that you

36:02

couldn't really have

36:05

that attachment with

36:08

this person as an equal person.

36:10

Yeah, definitely. Yeah. It's the

36:12

phrase that they often use in the documentary, which

36:14

I think is just so telling, is

36:16

man up. Like that that's

36:18

such a harmful phrase that's used

36:21

in the patriarchy so often

36:23

is that men

36:26

are expected to man up. And when

36:28

there's that adolescent shift in boys, like

36:30

when they're a certain age, they're allowed

36:32

to cry and get the hug from

36:34

their mom or they're allowed to cry

36:36

to their boyfriends or girlfriends.

36:39

And then there's that shift that happens

36:42

when they're expected to man up. And

36:44

they also say in the documentary, this is

36:47

very telling to me, there is a point

36:49

where you can start a

36:51

fight on any playground across kind of

36:53

the Western world by walking

36:55

up to kids that are playing, boys

36:57

that are playing and say to them,

37:00

who's the girl? Which

37:03

one of you is the sissy? Which one of you

37:05

is the pussy? And

37:08

the minute that you point

37:10

to something and say, which one

37:12

of you is feminized? Because

37:15

that's already loaded culturally as

37:17

a negative. Yeah,

37:22

we equate with feminine properties.

37:27

We make those things as you

37:29

said, in that first type of

37:31

feminism, less than

37:34

inferior. Yeah,

37:37

yeah. And I

37:40

think this is the thing like people will talk about, there

37:42

is a very real thing to

37:44

male privilege, right? But I

37:46

will say that the way patriarchy works

37:49

is that there are hierarchies

37:51

of men within patriarchy and

37:54

people will talk about, oh, alpha males

37:56

versus beta males. And a lot of

37:58

that is... that in

38:00

order to win a patriarchy, you have to be

38:03

the most dominant and to dominate ever and

38:05

around you. That includes other men, so you

38:07

perceive as lower than you. And

38:09

one of the most common ways to put

38:12

down or

38:14

undermine other men is by

38:16

feminizing them. Through feminizing

38:19

slurs, for

38:22

insinuating that they're not real men. And

38:25

so that just happens all

38:27

the way down the chain

38:29

of men doing it to each other. And

38:32

obviously, women and queer people bear

38:37

the brunt of that as us being

38:39

even inferior to the most

38:41

spade a man, right? Totally.

38:44

In their eyes, yeah. And

38:46

the behaviors themselves becoming, the

38:52

behaviors becoming things that are viewed.

38:54

So like what we do

38:56

as a culture and a society is we feminize

38:59

certain behaviors. And we say that

39:01

those, they're human behaviors,

39:04

like a need for intimacy, a

39:06

need for closeness, having

39:11

emotions, feeling pain, wanting

39:14

to be touched. All

39:17

of those things are

39:19

basic human experiences and

39:21

behaviors, yet we feminize them. And

39:24

we've made them somehow only okay

39:26

for men to experience if they're

39:28

experiencing them with an opposite sex

39:30

partner. But they're not allowed to

39:32

experience them with anybody

39:34

of the same gender. They're

39:37

not allowed to experience them

39:39

with friends, with confidants, with

39:41

maybe sometimes with family members.

39:44

They're not allowed to experience them with their own

39:46

sons. It's just, it's

39:49

horrifying. Like somehow we've made it

39:51

okay for women to have those

39:53

experiences with other women. But

39:56

the minute that a man experiences

39:58

any of those things, feelings or

40:00

thoughts. He is a feminized

40:02

man and somehow that makes

40:05

him less than. When those

40:07

are human experiences and thoughts

40:09

that are universal. Yeah,

40:13

definitely. Yeah, I mean when I, you know,

40:16

there's, you know, the in

40:19

Whippin Girl, the subtitle talks

40:21

about the scapegoating of femininity,

40:25

which was really important to me because

40:27

I couldn't really separate out

40:29

kind of the sexism that I've

40:31

experienced as a

40:33

trans woman, both as someone who,

40:35

regardless of me being trans, you know, people view

40:37

as a woman or the sexism,

40:40

the misogyny that informs the transphobia

40:42

that I experienced as a trans

40:44

woman. But then also tying that

40:46

to just the way in which

40:48

femininity in general is degraded within

40:50

society. And one

40:52

of the things that I stress, because a

40:55

lot of times there's this

40:57

idea of people have this idea that

40:59

femininity is artificial. The

41:03

way the example I often

41:05

use is, you know, we'll say that like

41:07

women get all dolled up, but what do

41:09

men do before dates? They groom, you know,

41:11

like animals in the wild,

41:14

they do purely natural what they do.

41:16

And so there's this tendency

41:19

to artificialize femininity.

41:22

And I talk about in the book, how

41:24

I think some feminists, this

41:27

isn't all feminists, but some feminists, I

41:29

feel in a misguided way, have focused

41:31

a lot of their energy on kind

41:33

of buying into the

41:35

idea that femininity is artificial and

41:37

telling girls and women that you should avoid

41:40

that. And it's like, don't avoid

41:42

it for men or something like that. Yeah,

41:44

exactly. Not for ourselves. Yeah. Yeah. And a

41:46

lot of that language gets very

41:49

scarily close to

41:51

suggesting that women who are feminine

41:53

are asking to be

41:55

treated inferiorly, which that's, that's

41:59

bad. But

42:01

the point that I make is I

42:03

think with masculinity and femininity I don't

42:05

think it's helpful at all to think of

42:07

any of them as artificial. They're all natural

42:09

qualities and You

42:13

know people a lot of times people want to

42:15

talk about it being artificial talk about makeup or

42:17

high heels It's like well, let's just talk

42:19

about You know enjoying

42:21

aesthetically pleasing things and whether it's kind

42:24

of how you decorate yourself or how

42:26

you decorate your house Etc.

42:28

There are some people who are more feminine in

42:30

that way, right and it's not that Enjoying

42:33

aesthetically pleasing, you know decorations or clothing

42:35

It's not that that's a woman thing

42:38

or a man thing It's that it's

42:41

a human thing that some people do

42:43

more than others, but we code

42:45

it as feminine in our culture And

42:47

I think that's the point

42:49

there the coding because that

42:51

is completely again arbitrary Like

42:53

there is nothing inherently feminine

42:56

about cleanliness or about flowers,

42:58

you know, we have decided societally

43:01

to say that making the bed

43:03

is feminine or the color pink

43:06

is feminine and that leather and

43:09

tobacco and gray and

43:11

black and disheveled

43:13

and dirty dishes as masculine like

43:15

that makes no sense. Nothing about

43:18

that is fundamentally masculine or feminine

43:21

Yeah, exactly. It's just

43:23

it it's Bananas and

43:25

and I think it's

43:27

so important to again to travel to

43:30

read to experience other cultures There are

43:32

some things that are universal that's true

43:35

But it's also there's nothing

43:37

untouched anymore in our in our in

43:40

in the globe So you even when

43:42

things are universal, we can't call them

43:44

essentialist But there are so

43:46

many examples Where when

43:48

we really study other societies and other

43:51

cultures outside of our little Western bubble

43:53

We start to really question the things

43:55

that we thought were sort of oh

43:58

That's that's kind of of turns

44:01

what I thought was traditionally

44:03

masculine or feminine on its head. I

44:06

don't know, it frustrates the hell out of me.

44:09

I saw this thing, I'm super curious about your

44:11

take on this. This is so gross because we

44:14

live in an Instagram society. But I saw this,

44:17

am I the asshole, online where

44:19

this woman was talking about

44:21

her husband was saying, hey,

44:24

don't forget I have my friend from work coming over

44:26

after work. And she was like, what the fuck, you

44:28

didn't tell me that. And he was like, no, I

44:30

did. And she was like enraged. And she was like,

44:33

I was really questioning why I was so mad. Because

44:35

the house was a mess, we're messy people, it wasn't

44:37

clean. And I was really upset with him. And I

44:39

stopped and I really dug deep to

44:41

understand why am I so mad at him for

44:43

this. And then I realized, if

44:48

he okay, if if the house

44:50

is dirty, and his friend comes

44:52

over, and his friend sees that

44:54

the house is dirty,

44:57

his friend is going to put all of the

45:00

onus on me. Because it's

45:02

expected that a man has a dirty house.

45:04

That's the trope, right? The bachelor pad,

45:07

that's like, Oh, guys are they just

45:09

don't care about those kinds of things.

45:11

They have other things on their mind.

45:13

The bachelor pad is messy. That's just

45:15

how it is. But the woman has

45:17

this expectation of this domestic, you know,

45:20

labor. And if the house

45:23

is messy, that falls on her shoulder.

45:25

She's not a good housekeeper. She's not

45:27

taking care of the family. She's not,

45:29

you know, fulfilling her womanly duties and

45:31

her womanly roles. And there's this inherent

45:33

guilt that she actually this this woman

45:36

online actually had to like dig deep

45:38

to understand why she was feeling so

45:40

angry. Oh, it's because I

45:42

feel guilty. Why would I feel guilty? It's because

45:44

I have pressure on me to be

45:47

the clean one, even though we're both

45:49

equally dirty and equally responsible for this

45:52

fucked up. Yeah. No,

45:55

it definitely yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It

45:57

definitely it's also in thinking about

46:00

And if kind of thousand two

46:02

of us talking about and weapon

46:04

girl like critiquing a lot of

46:06

the old on twentieth century yeah

46:08

series. About trans people and everything that.

46:10

Scientists. Are putting out at the time

46:13

and one of the most famous one was

46:15

on. Or. Yeah that there

46:17

are multiple variations of it, but

46:19

all blame as and they're mostly

46:21

thinking about. You. Know. Because.

46:24

Of like trans masculine invisibility.

46:26

They're mostly these scientists are

46:28

mostly thinking about trans and

46:30

then. Children And you

46:32

know, oh you know, why is

46:34

your son. Nothing in a feminine

46:37

manner. And they almost always blame the

46:39

woman in one way or another. So

46:41

it's another. yeah, he has a dominant

46:43

mother is the line and then go

46:45

another holiday later mother. Yeah,

46:49

was that I mean the other one is

46:51

going to mention his arm. I believe that

46:53

there was something wrong with the mothers hormones

46:56

when the child was in utero. That. You.

46:58

Know feminized the boy and

47:00

he never once once you're

47:03

aware. Of his

47:05

era, it's a fairly obvious as it's

47:07

you know, We

47:10

live in a society works and as isn't as

47:12

like. Keeping. The house clean. It's

47:14

also. An inordinate

47:16

amount of pressure. Expectations are on the

47:19

woman to be the one who does

47:21

the child rearing. So obviously if your

47:23

child you know is wrong because ready

47:26

for hazard, right? Yeah, exactly Yeah. Hormone

47:28

that must be some. The another Minimum

47:30

was wrong. Idea of or

47:33

up as a media Going back

47:35

to like this hierarchy that you

47:37

mentioned before. like the sort of

47:39

patriarchal hierarchy that events with in

47:41

genders like even within says gender

47:43

men but even with in. Women:

47:47

There has historically always

47:49

been this hierarchy of privilege,

47:51

right, and. This

47:53

is what really. Really bothers.

47:56

Me is that you see

47:58

all. This gem. There

48:00

are women should be. I

48:02

think some of the biggest

48:04

allies for transgender women like

48:06

we know how. Fast

48:09

It is to exist as

48:11

a woman in the patriarchy

48:13

and we have these you

48:15

know, wonderful women who could.

48:17

I mean, it would be torture for

48:20

them. And I've and I've known I'm

48:22

women. Transgender women who really

48:24

thought to right to exist

48:26

as men in the world

48:28

and it was an abject

48:30

torture but could have lived

48:32

with these privileges right Wing

48:34

the pushing against every fiber

48:36

of there being of who

48:39

they truly are but could

48:41

have lived against as privileges

48:43

and couldn't you know. He.

48:46

Added when they chose, Er

48:48

decided to, but did transition

48:50

and live their lives as

48:52

they're authentic selves and entered

48:54

into a class of citizenship

48:56

that is is perceived as

48:58

less than you know. These

49:01

are our sisters and yet

49:03

there are still there's this

49:05

layer of sort of a

49:07

hierarchical privilege with insists gender

49:09

women that are. you know,

49:11

they're called terrorists, right? that

49:14

actually looks down on transgender.

49:16

Women and are trans exclusionary

49:18

and they baffled the absolutely

49:20

baffle me and I'm curious

49:22

how you've grappled with that

49:24

sort. That hierarchy

49:27

in your writing. Yes,

49:30

Or so I'm so and weapon

49:32

girl So ah, Turf.

49:35

Is a fairly new were. So basically

49:37

I think surface coined around two thousand

49:39

and eight. Ah, That was

49:42

a point cause of what's her

49:44

name? because of the Harry Potter

49:46

Lady. Oh no, this

49:48

is where we florida okay are known

49:50

to that. Yeah, so there's usually Lord

49:52

of the most public example lately. Yeah

49:55

so. Basically. trans exclusionary feminism

49:58

on has a I've existed

50:00

for a while. I write about it in Whoopin' Girl.

50:04

So a lot of my thoughts, my

50:06

early thoughts are in there, particularly in a

50:08

chapter called Bending Over Backwards, where

50:11

I talk about trans-exclusion policies.

50:13

Particularly there is the Michigan

50:16

Women's Music Festival that long

50:18

had one. But

50:20

they've existed in different forms. The

50:23

point that I make in it is

50:25

that these views

50:27

are very anti-feminist. Once

50:31

you start looking at them

50:33

closely, they're very anti-feminist. And

50:37

then there is evolution. So

50:39

basically trans-exclusionary radical feminists

50:42

was coined by a cisgender radical

50:44

feminist to distinguish

50:46

between radical feminists

50:49

like her who were not opposed to

50:51

trans people versus those who were.

50:54

And then in the UK, sometime

50:57

probably 2013 or 2014 is when gender-critical became a term that

51:00

was used. And

51:05

so in the UK, that's a very common term. Also,

51:10

a way of saying, oh, I'm

51:13

opposed to trans people, but from

51:15

a presumably feminist standpoint. And

51:18

I've written a lot in more

51:20

recent articles about

51:23

multiple things that are wrong with that

51:25

viewpoint. I will say, and they

51:28

do get a lot of news, a lot of

51:30

times gender-critical or

51:32

TERFs will get a lot

51:34

of attention, because a lot

51:38

of them are actively working to upend

51:42

trans people's rights and

51:44

ability to exist in the world. But

51:48

it's still, most surveys show that

51:50

actually when it comes

51:53

to opposition to trans people, it's way more

51:55

men than women. That women

51:57

in general tend to be more trans. inclusive

52:02

or accepting than men more generally.

52:04

But yeah, that definitely is the

52:06

faction that exists. And

52:08

I've written about it, like I

52:10

said, boots and weapon girl. And if you

52:13

want any of my more

52:15

recent essays on my webpage, which

52:17

is juliusserrano.com, if you go on the writing

52:20

page, I list all

52:22

my writings, all my essays going

52:24

way back to the early

52:27

2000s. You can

52:29

read there and I've written a couple of things about

52:31

it since then. Here's the thing

52:33

that I'm super confused about when it

52:35

comes to this sort of exclusionary or

52:38

anti-activism is like,

52:42

what's the point? Trans

52:44

people exist. This

52:46

is the part that always blows my mind. You

52:50

exist, what are these people

52:52

trying to accomplish? Are

52:54

they trying to literally erase your

52:57

existence? I just have never

53:00

fundamentally understood the purpose

53:04

of movements that try

53:06

to erase people that already

53:08

are. Like

53:11

you are a person, you should have

53:13

basic human rights. It's

53:16

so weird to me. It

53:19

would be one thing if you were trying to

53:22

encroach on my rights, but

53:25

you're trying to exist in the world.

53:28

Why is that so threatening?

53:32

Yeah, and it's

53:34

interesting you said that because one of

53:36

a major gender critical argument

53:39

that you'll hear them make is that

53:42

they'll refer to it as gender

53:44

ideology and they'll say that this is

53:46

just a recent invention and that

53:48

trans people didn't really exist until the year

53:51

2012 or something like that. Yeah,

53:54

they will make these sorts of arguments. There's

53:58

one gender critical. person

54:02

who wrote a book and in the book

54:06

she says that in Whipping Girl

54:08

I sort of like popularize

54:10

the idea of gender identity, which is

54:12

not like gender identity. You're

54:14

like, well, thank you. I

54:18

can't really take credit for that. Well,

54:20

that idea, gender identity has been used

54:22

since the 60s. It was

54:25

cisgender psychologists who

54:27

kind of came up with that term. It's

54:32

important for their views to say, oh,

54:34

well, this is a new phenomenon because

54:36

if they acknowledge that

54:38

we exist, then they have to come grapple

54:41

with the idea that what they're

54:44

doing is trying to kind

54:47

of make it impossible for a

54:50

minority group to exist in

54:53

society and they really don't want to do

54:55

that. Oh, but the thing I

54:57

was going to say, if you actually go back

54:59

to, there's an infamous

55:01

book, 1979 is when it came out. It's

55:06

by Janice Raymond and it's called The Transsexual

55:08

Empire and it's kind of like the

55:10

first anti-transseminist

55:14

book. And

55:16

in it, she makes the argument in the very beginning that

55:18

this is a, transsexualism is

55:20

a completely new phenomenon. And

55:24

obviously if you go through history and look

55:26

from culture to culture, you'll find trans people

55:28

everywhere. We

55:31

like gay people and

55:33

other LGBTQIA plus people. We just

55:36

have always existed in various forms

55:39

and maybe certain words, maybe the word

55:41

transgender is

55:44

a fairly new word, but we've existed in

55:46

one form or another for many, many years.

55:49

But even like, not really. That's

55:51

the thing too, like, yes, and

55:53

sometimes underground because it might've been

55:55

illegal or might've been viewed as

55:58

not acceptable. But like. Not

56:00

really even that like you can

56:02

always find cultures and societies where

56:05

people were openly trans Historically

56:07

and that's the part that it's like you

56:10

just not read history Yeah,

56:12

exactly. Um mentioned JK

56:15

Rowling is being a you know,

56:18

a trans exclusionary feminist

56:21

Person um, it's actually like

56:23

last week. There's kind of

56:26

a big like You

56:28

know once every couple weeks is a big buh-huh

56:30

cuz she said something online and and

56:32

then like trans people have to react to that well,

56:35

um, she was writing in response to so

56:37

in During the

56:40

first like gender affirming surgeries

56:42

happened in around

56:44

like the 1910s through

56:46

30s Mostly

56:48

in Germany and Germany was one of

56:50

the most open societies

56:53

for trans people and there is This

56:56

sexologists Magnus Hirschfield

56:58

who had ran an Institute of

57:00

sex sexuality that

57:04

You know with basically was advocating on behalf

57:06

of not just trans people but like all

57:08

you know all

57:11

LGBTQIA plus people and That

57:15

they were like one of the first targets of

57:17

the Nazis in the early 30s And

57:20

in fact a lot of if you see photos

57:22

of Nazis engaged in book

57:25

burning like almost all those

57:27

photos are of this Institute of

57:29

sexuality being burned down and

57:31

so like JK Rowling had this reaction

57:33

of like, oh You

57:35

know trans people are really deluded now

57:37

They're pretending that trans people were the

57:39

target of Nazis during the Holocaust. It's

57:41

like yeah, actually there were it's

57:44

like Yeah, it's like you know about like

57:46

was it I think like the pink

57:48

triangles that like, you know

57:51

queer people Wore, you

57:53

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59:01

There's a great documentary on Netflix

59:03

about this. There's a whole, like

59:05

Berlin was probably one of the

59:07

most queer inclusive places prior to

59:09

the Holocaust on the planet.

59:11

And there were doctors that would write trans

59:13

people notes that said like, this person is

59:15

allowed to be who they are in the

59:17

streets. They have a doctor's pass to dress

59:19

how they want to dress. This is their

59:21

identity. And like there were

59:24

trans people openly out in like the

59:26

twenties and thirties in Berlin. Like

59:29

this is a, this is established. There

59:31

are photos, lots of photos

59:33

of this, you know? And then of course

59:36

they were targeted by the Nazis because they

59:38

were quote different. You know, I mean, this,

59:40

it just breaks my heart that like, how

59:43

do you not just like read, read a

59:45

book, you know? Like watch a documentary.

59:47

It takes like an hour. Yeah.

59:51

And yeah, and I think, you

59:54

know, a lot of times I get asked,

59:56

especially now we're in this big anti-trans backlash.

1:00:00

A lot of it very much resembling like

1:00:02

a lot of moral panics where

1:00:04

Let's say panic panic bullshit. Yeah Yeah

1:00:07

trans trans people are less than one percent

1:00:09

of the population and There's

1:00:12

no reason we should be taking up you

1:00:15

know this much space in

1:00:17

people's brains that

1:00:19

that they're like crafting non-stop

1:00:21

legislation anti-trans legislation and you

1:00:25

know and So a lot

1:00:27

of times and thinking about this or being asked

1:00:29

about it Um, you know my

1:00:31

thoughts about the backlash. It's like well, we've

1:00:33

been through these actually a couple times and

1:00:35

so, you know That one

1:00:37

example of like the 1930s is one

1:00:39

there's also a lot of progress um

1:00:43

trans people were very involved in Uh

1:00:46

the gay liberation movement and then

1:00:48

stonewall um and

1:00:50

everything Uh, and

1:00:52

and so that was some progress that was being

1:00:54

made and there was a backlash against

1:00:56

us um basically

1:00:59

Starting in like like growing in

1:01:02

the 80s that jannis frame a book. I mentioned

1:01:04

was like kind of uh

1:01:06

a watershed of of that or uh

1:01:10

You know, whatever a bad high

1:01:12

point is um, and

1:01:14

then like during the 80s, it's like trans

1:01:16

people Uh Continue

1:01:19

to exist but a lot more underground um

1:01:23

Than was the case before then and so

1:01:25

there's nobody's going to get rid

1:01:27

of us because we kind of just naturally

1:01:31

Pop up in families and communities

1:01:34

Regardless of what their politics are or

1:01:36

what their beliefs are like we're just a part of

1:01:39

natural variation Yeah, that's the

1:01:41

thing you can't that's like

1:01:43

saying like I don't

1:01:45

I don't it's like Saying like

1:01:47

i'm gonna get rid of vegetarians or

1:01:49

something like you didn't you don't choose

1:01:52

to be transgender You are transgender You're

1:01:54

a human being You

1:01:57

can't be gotten rid of like that's the thing that's so

1:02:03

Even if in the

1:02:05

Holocaust you were eradicated, which is

1:02:07

the grossest thing in the world,

1:02:10

more transgender people would be born because

1:02:13

you are people. And

1:02:17

I think that's such a, like, how

1:02:19

is it that we're even sadly

1:02:22

having to have this conversation? It's

1:02:24

heartbreaking to me and

1:02:26

infuriating to me. And

1:02:30

on that note, as you were

1:02:32

mentioning this moral panic that

1:02:35

we see sort of ebb and flow

1:02:37

over the years and right now because

1:02:39

of Trump and because

1:02:42

of the hardcore alt-right

1:02:44

movement in this country and sort

1:02:46

of across the Western world that's

1:02:50

at a fever pitch, I

1:02:52

would love to... Not

1:02:55

that I'm playing devil's advocate, I'm

1:02:57

not playing devil's advocate, but for

1:02:59

the listeners who I think are

1:03:02

maybe in some ways trying... Honestly,

1:03:05

I don't want to make excuses for

1:03:07

them. But for the emails that we

1:03:09

sometimes will get on this show and on the

1:03:12

show that I work on also, The Skeptic's Guide

1:03:14

to the Universe, where we'll get emails from people

1:03:16

who seem well-meaning, who are,

1:03:18

like, liberal, but they'll say things like,

1:03:21

listen, I have trans friends and I'm

1:03:23

LGBTQ positive and I wear my rainbow

1:03:25

pin. But I do have to say

1:03:27

I'm a little concerned when I read

1:03:30

these articles about surgeries that

1:03:33

are done on little children and I'm like,

1:03:36

Jesus Christ. I would just

1:03:38

love to hear from somebody who has done

1:03:40

a lot of work in this area, who

1:03:42

has this expertise and who writes in this

1:03:44

area and who has lived the life of

1:03:47

somebody who, yes, you transitioned a little

1:03:49

bit later in life, but you've talked to

1:03:51

a bajillion people and you've been listening to

1:03:54

people. Can you help the people who are listening

1:03:56

who are still holding on to that thread? We're

1:03:58

like, yeah, but surgery on a full... year

1:04:00

old I don't know about that.

1:04:02

Like come on people. Yeah.

1:04:06

They don't do surgery for a 4 year

1:04:08

old. But spoiler alert. Exactly.

1:04:13

For Whooping Girl I got to write an afterword

1:04:16

that's largely about trans

1:04:19

children and the anti-trans moral panic we're

1:04:22

living through now. So I

1:04:27

address that there for

1:04:30

people who do pick up

1:04:32

the book. We release now right? We've

1:04:34

been mentioning Whooping Girl a lot. This is

1:04:36

one of your earliest books but you just

1:04:39

re-released it with a new afterword. Yeah so

1:04:41

this is the third edition and the new

1:04:43

the only thing that's new about it generally

1:04:45

is the afterword. And

1:04:48

so that and I go in depth

1:04:50

about basically watching the

1:04:52

anti-trans backlash start and addressing a lot

1:04:54

of concerns that come up. For people

1:04:56

who don't want to pick up the

1:04:58

book one of the things you

1:05:00

would find on my writings page is a fairly

1:05:02

recent essay from last year called

1:05:05

Gender Affirming Care is Neither

1:05:08

New Nor Experimental. And it's basically

1:05:12

an essay that kind of addresses some

1:05:14

of the main points but then it

1:05:16

has a list of over

1:05:19

a hundred research studies and reviews

1:05:21

about gender affirming care since

1:05:24

like the 1990s which

1:05:27

is around the time when a lot

1:05:29

of the what we now think of as gender

1:05:31

affirming care for trans youth was a lot of

1:05:33

that was first happening. So

1:05:35

yeah the main things are that you

1:05:39

know there are no surgeries on

1:05:41

no children are getting surgeries. Basically

1:05:48

if you are a trans kid there

1:05:50

are a couple things that if you it's

1:05:52

not just if a kid wakes

1:05:54

up one day and says oh I want to be boy I want to

1:05:57

be a girl. It's

1:05:59

generally understandable. said that it

1:06:01

has to be insistent and persistent and

1:06:04

consistent if the child is saying that

1:06:06

they understand themselves to be the other

1:06:08

gender. There's

1:06:10

basically a series of steps starting with

1:06:12

like social transition, which is completely reversible.

1:06:15

So a kid might go to

1:06:17

school as their identified gender.

1:06:20

So they might change their name and

1:06:22

their pronouns and the clothes they wear,

1:06:24

but that's completely, you know, reversible.

1:06:26

Yeah, they might get a haircut or

1:06:28

wear a binder or do things that

1:06:31

are like helping them affirm that

1:06:33

don't require medical intervention. Exactly.

1:06:36

And there are puberty blockers, which

1:06:39

people don't insist that these are

1:06:41

somehow new or haven't

1:06:43

been tested. They've been used since the

1:06:46

1980s to treat precocious

1:06:49

puberty, basically

1:06:51

children who experience puberty earlier than

1:06:54

the normal ages. They've been used

1:06:56

for, and they've been used since

1:06:58

the 1990s, to

1:07:01

basically temporarily hold off

1:07:04

puberty happening. So

1:07:08

that the kids might get be able to have

1:07:11

another couple of years to be sure. And so

1:07:14

it's not until like later in their

1:07:16

teens, often the age

1:07:18

of 16, where they might be going

1:07:21

on cross sex hormones, which

1:07:26

are somewhat, somewhat reversible, depending

1:07:28

on how long you're on them. But

1:07:30

anyway, so there's there's no such thing

1:07:32

of like forcing young children into this.

1:07:34

Second of all, there's no forcing of

1:07:36

anything going on. I've never once ever

1:07:39

heard of any child, any

1:07:41

parent who was kind of pushing their

1:07:43

kids into transitioning. If they

1:07:45

never the opposite. Yeah, exactly.

1:07:47

And I don't even know

1:07:50

trans people. I've never heard of a trans

1:07:52

person say, Oh, I think we should make

1:07:54

more kids trans or whatever kind of seriously

1:07:56

serious stuff is going on. People said nobody

1:07:59

is transing anybody. No,

1:08:01

no, if anything, trans people are being

1:08:03

denied the opportunities left and right to

1:08:06

be able to experience their

1:08:08

lives as the gender that

1:08:10

they identify with. And

1:08:12

I would love to see, I mean,

1:08:15

this might sound radical, but more opportunities

1:08:17

for children who are living in rural

1:08:19

areas, who are afraid to come out

1:08:22

to their parents or to their healthcare

1:08:24

providers. But sadly, what's

1:08:26

much more common is that

1:08:28

children are waiting until

1:08:31

sometimes they can't do the

1:08:33

affirming care until they're older

1:08:36

and until there are changes that

1:08:38

take place that are harder to

1:08:40

reverse. And that's not to say

1:08:42

that they can't still engage in

1:08:44

gender affirming care when they're older and live

1:08:46

a really full and meaningful

1:08:48

life. But sometimes the affirming

1:08:50

care isn't as, I don't

1:08:53

know, I don't know what the right terminology

1:08:55

here is, but as, I

1:08:58

don't know, effective, because they are

1:09:00

having to wait until they're much older

1:09:02

because they're just too afraid or they're

1:09:04

not getting the support that they need.

1:09:08

Yeah, definitely without a doubt. There

1:09:11

are two things that I always

1:09:13

like to stress to people who

1:09:15

maybe are less trans aware about

1:09:17

all of this. And it's

1:09:20

like, so one is the biggest tell.

1:09:22

So people who are saying, oh, well,

1:09:24

I'm just worried about these children being

1:09:26

pushed into

1:09:30

it or pressured into it, or

1:09:33

the fears of so-called social contagion, which I've

1:09:35

written about a lot. You can find that

1:09:37

on my writing site, the

1:09:39

idea that being trans is like

1:09:41

the cooties and kids are infecting

1:09:43

one another with it. Right, yeah.

1:09:46

It's a common view. Yeah. So,

1:09:48

I mean, so

1:09:52

the people who worry about like,

1:09:55

oh, kids going

1:09:57

on puberty blockers or

1:10:00

We're going on hormones. The people are

1:10:02

saying that a. They almost always

1:10:04

oppose social transition to like of. Guess I'm

1:10:06

a what are your views? Are you okay

1:10:08

with instead of those kids going on puberty

1:10:10

blockers, a guy and hormones and they just.

1:10:13

Go. Buy their identified center at school

1:10:15

on and the name they want, Wear

1:10:17

the clothes they want to were almost

1:10:20

always those people are Priscilla to which

1:10:22

lets you know that they're opposed. To.

1:10:24

Trans people? listen, I just not

1:10:26

a good faith argument to begin

1:10:28

with. Yeah. And then the second

1:10:30

thing is that people will. They

1:10:33

will act as though Center Funding

1:10:35

Terror is some kind of new

1:10:37

an active intervention that low. Maybe

1:10:39

we should slow that film right?

1:10:41

And that presents. That doing

1:10:43

nothing. Is like this:

1:10:45

passive. everything will just be fine

1:10:47

and that's not true at all.

1:10:50

Doing. Nothing means that these kids

1:10:52

are going to go through a

1:10:54

puberty that they don't want. that

1:10:56

If you're worried about irreversible. You.

1:10:58

Know effects of hormones, well,

1:11:01

puberty, Has. Hormones and

1:11:03

for have right arm And

1:11:05

there's lots of studies showing

1:11:08

that this affirming his genders

1:11:10

i'm have very negative consequences.

1:11:12

best short term and long

1:11:14

term on their health. Immobile

1:11:17

So if to see if

1:11:19

you hear someone who is

1:11:21

opposed to gender affirming care

1:11:24

for trans youth who doesn't

1:11:26

address. But. What about? This.

1:11:28

Affirming their genders isn't that bad to.

1:11:31

Or. Are you know if they

1:11:33

don't say anything about being will

1:11:35

improve social transitioning? But I have.

1:11:38

A. Little bit worried about the purity buffers.

1:11:40

like if you don't hear people saying

1:11:42

these things, Than there being

1:11:44

consistent. they're being consistent and that they don't

1:11:47

want kids to be trans. They don't want

1:11:49

anyone to be triumphs. It's

1:11:51

It's interesting to the that the

1:11:53

the latter that you mentioned. I

1:11:56

think it does fall into a

1:11:58

cognitive bias that I. The quite

1:12:00

a large the I grapple with

1:12:03

with clients as an existential a

1:12:05

practicing psychologists and I think

1:12:07

I can't remember what this cognitive

1:12:10

bias called, but it's almost like

1:12:12

a form of the naturalistic fallacy.

1:12:14

Were like A perfect example was

1:12:17

around the covert vaccine where people

1:12:19

will think that not acting is

1:12:22

somehow safer than taking on the

1:12:24

risk of action. Because.

1:12:26

They calculate that the risk

1:12:28

of action is somehow. Now

1:12:30

loading them with blame or false.

1:12:33

but if they don't act than

1:12:35

the issue blame or fault. So

1:12:37

a lot of people were like, well, if

1:12:40

I do the vaccine and then it turns

1:12:42

out after the fact that there's harm associated

1:12:44

with it than I am at fault for

1:12:46

having done the vaccine. But if I don't

1:12:49

do the vaccines that I'm. Skirting.

1:12:51

That harm. But really, there's so much more

1:12:53

harm involved in not getting vaccinated for cove

1:12:56

it's and that's a really hard calculation for

1:12:58

a lot of people to grapple with. And

1:13:00

so for me, it's a it's a big

1:13:03

thing. That I talk about in. Existential

1:13:05

Psychology One of the be kind

1:13:08

of tenets of existential psychology is

1:13:10

a choice and freedom and responsibility.

1:13:12

and we often grapple with the

1:13:14

fact that no choice is a

1:13:17

choice. Not doing anything is a

1:13:19

choice in and of itself. If.

1:13:22

You choose not to act. You're still making

1:13:24

a choice. And. You have

1:13:27

the consequences of that and I think that

1:13:29

that that points to exactly what you're talking

1:13:31

about With if you have a child and

1:13:33

your title child is screaming T L my

1:13:35

name is not show it's Jan. I am

1:13:38

a girl and I know that you've called

1:13:40

me Joe your whole life and I know

1:13:42

that you keep trying to tell me I'm

1:13:44

this person that I'm not but I'm telling

1:13:46

you this is who I am and I

1:13:49

want you to help me be the person

1:13:51

I know that I am and sites and

1:13:53

are like we're just gonna wait a little

1:13:55

bit longer and. do nothing you are

1:13:58

telling that child i am I'm

1:14:00

not affirming who you are. I'm not listening

1:14:02

to you. And I am telling you you're

1:14:04

somebody that you're telling me you're not. That

1:14:08

is a choice. Yeah. No,

1:14:10

definitely. I

1:14:12

100% agree that that

1:14:14

bias that you're talking about

1:14:17

of people thinking being passive

1:14:19

has less risk than being

1:14:21

active, even though they are both choices. I

1:14:23

definitely think that that's involved. And

1:14:26

I think that there's another bias, kind

1:14:29

of unconscious bias, that

1:14:31

I've actually become particularly,

1:14:38

my most recent book before the third edition

1:14:40

of Weapon Girl came out, it's called Sexed

1:14:42

Out, the House of Society Sexualizes Us and

1:14:45

How We Can Flight Back. And

1:14:47

a lot of it basically

1:14:50

is about how

1:14:52

we perceive and interpret

1:14:54

sex and sexuality and people

1:14:59

being sexualized. And I talk a lot about stigma

1:15:01

in it because I think stigma is a big

1:15:03

driver. And studies

1:15:06

basically showing that stigma, people

1:15:08

imagine stigma acts as a contagion, that

1:15:12

it's not just people, it's

1:15:14

contagious that people can get infected. But

1:15:17

once you're infected, you become tainted and

1:15:19

spoiled and permanently ruined in

1:15:21

people's eyes. And in kind

1:15:25

of working on that,

1:15:27

it's become really clear to me that

1:15:30

some things are deemed pure

1:15:32

and some attributes are viewed

1:15:34

as dirty and tainted and contaminated. And

1:15:37

I think that the

1:15:39

way that straightness and queerness work in

1:15:41

people's minds is that straightness

1:15:44

is pure and queer

1:15:46

people are contaminated by it. And so

1:15:49

there's, I think the idea of social

1:15:51

contagion, it's like, oh, well, if your

1:15:53

kid plays with another trans person, then

1:15:56

they might catch the trans from them. When

1:15:59

in reality, it's probably that. both your kids

1:16:01

are like, you know, gender questioning

1:16:03

or gender non-conforming and they're friends

1:16:05

because they have that in common.

1:16:07

And so I've been thinking-

1:16:09

It's also so funny because it shows how

1:16:11

insecure people are in their own sexuality. Like

1:16:14

that tells me a lot more about you

1:16:16

as a parent, like that your fear- because

1:16:18

like, are you afraid that if you hang

1:16:20

out with a bunch of trans people that

1:16:22

you're going to start questioning like the sanctity

1:16:25

of your own marriage or something? It's just

1:16:27

such a weird worldview. Anyway, continue. Oh

1:16:30

sure, yeah. And so yeah,

1:16:33

and so I

1:16:36

think a lot of anti-trans

1:16:38

activists, their reactions make

1:16:42

a lot more sense if you realize

1:16:45

that they view transness as

1:16:47

a corruption or a contamination, that

1:16:50

they're trying to prevent children

1:16:52

from being contaminated, even though that's not how

1:16:54

it works. And so their

1:16:56

idea of like, if you can just quarantine

1:16:59

all the trans kids and

1:17:01

like let the rest of the kids be pure,

1:17:04

uncontaminated, cisgender kids, like that

1:17:06

seems to be kind of the

1:17:09

roadmap they're going by. And I

1:17:12

found this very useful in

1:17:14

thinking about, I

1:17:17

think all stigmatized groups to some extent are

1:17:19

seen as, you know,

1:17:21

contaminating or corrupting in one way

1:17:23

or another. And you

1:17:26

can also see this, we're like in the middle, you

1:17:28

know, this kind of, you

1:17:30

know, it's an

1:17:33

anti-trans and anti-queer backlash

1:17:35

that's going on right now, but it's also

1:17:38

anti a lot of different marginalized groups and

1:17:40

the way in which

1:17:43

like, quote unquote,

1:17:45

you know, CRT or

1:17:47

DEI as it's

1:17:49

imagined in the minds of

1:17:51

kind of people

1:17:54

on the far right as this

1:17:56

thing that's contaminating or otherwise pure.

1:18:00

white culture and there's a lot of, I think

1:18:04

that that's why we often talk about

1:18:06

in like trans communities of

1:18:09

it's sometimes called like the turf

1:18:11

the fascist pipeline. Yeah,

1:18:13

I mean, for sure. Yeah,

1:18:15

start out being a little bit anti trans.

1:18:18

And then they become like, little more virally

1:18:21

anti trans, like they started like trans skeptical

1:18:23

and then a little more virally anti trans.

1:18:25

And the next thing you know, they're like,

1:18:28

you know, working with Nazis, or, you know,

1:18:31

working with people. Great way to put

1:18:33

it too, like fascist, because I think

1:18:35

we often will talk about like white

1:18:38

nationalism or we'll talk about misogyny or

1:18:40

patriarchy, but that doesn't capture it all.

1:18:42

Like what we have to use all

1:18:44

these different specifiers to talk about this,

1:18:46

like, whatever

1:18:48

that is, that's fascist, but I guess you can

1:18:50

also be a fascist woman, you know,

1:18:53

but this is like white nationalist,

1:18:55

anti woman, anti trans, anti,

1:18:57

you know, that pure misogynistic,

1:19:02

male awfulness. I don't know

1:19:04

what what you call that. Yeah,

1:19:07

and so if you think of

1:19:09

it like that, it's like the

1:19:11

idea of like straight people, you

1:19:14

know, wanting to keep straightness

1:19:16

pure, and so you

1:19:18

have to quarantine queer people. It's

1:19:20

very similar to how kind of a

1:19:23

lot of like Christian nationalists look

1:19:25

at basically

1:19:28

any non Christian religion or

1:19:30

atheism they view as this

1:19:33

corruption, right? Pure culture. And

1:19:35

that's exactly how, you know,

1:19:38

like white nationalists view people of

1:19:40

color is like, well, we have

1:19:42

this pure culture, but then there

1:19:44

are these, you know, immigrants

1:19:47

coming in or there's, you know,

1:19:49

mixing with us and the yeah,

1:19:51

and talking, yeah,

1:19:54

and talking about critical race theory is

1:19:56

going to like infect our children and

1:19:58

they'll no longer be. pure, it's like,

1:20:00

yes, because they'll know what racism is.

1:20:04

That's what you're doing. You're not letting

1:20:06

them learn about racism and why it's

1:20:08

bad. Anyway,

1:20:10

so in this

1:20:12

way, I think they're all kind of connected. And

1:20:14

I think that there's at least, I'm

1:20:17

optimistic that I think

1:20:20

a lot of people, not everybody, obviously, but I

1:20:22

think a lot of people kind of see

1:20:25

the ways in which

1:20:27

these different

1:20:33

movements are all intertwined with

1:20:35

one another and also intertwined with

1:20:37

kind of the increasing authoritarian,

1:20:41

anti-democracy movement that's

1:20:44

happening in

1:20:46

our country and across the world in different ways. And

1:20:49

so I'm cautiously

1:20:52

optimistic about,

1:20:55

you know, that

1:20:58

there's more of us who doesn't want

1:21:00

that to happen than there are people who

1:21:02

do want it to happen. Here,

1:21:04

here, you know, I'm super curious as

1:21:06

we're closing this up from the listeners of the

1:21:08

show this week, like how many of you, I

1:21:10

don't know how many of you are going to

1:21:12

be willing to reach out to me on social

1:21:14

media and tell me this or like message me

1:21:16

on Patreon if you're one of the patrons, but

1:21:19

I'd love it if you would. How

1:21:22

many of you were like just vigorously nodding your

1:21:24

head this whole time? And how many of you

1:21:27

were like, I

1:21:29

never thought about that. I'm learning

1:21:31

something new this week, you

1:21:33

know, especially with regards to

1:21:36

making these sort of intersectional

1:21:38

connections. Like maybe you always

1:21:40

had this very strong understanding

1:21:43

of white supremacy. And

1:21:45

now you're, you're

1:21:47

making that connection to

1:21:50

this, you know, anti-trans

1:21:52

viewpoint or this misogynistic

1:21:54

viewpoint or this, you know, a

1:21:56

perpetuation of the patriarchy or something.

1:21:58

So I'm super. I'm curious just

1:22:00

how this episode affected you,

1:22:02

how you received it, if you learned anything new

1:22:05

from it, because I just think that it was

1:22:07

really intersectional and really

1:22:10

put a lot of pieces together in

1:22:12

a way that was so important. So Julia,

1:22:14

I have to thank you for taking the

1:22:17

time and chatting with

1:22:19

us today. It was a really

1:22:22

meaningful conversation. Thanks,

1:22:25

yeah, I really enjoyed our conversation too.

1:22:29

And thanks again for inviting me. Oh,

1:22:31

of course. And everybody, I just

1:22:33

wanna go through the list real

1:22:35

quick because I know that they

1:22:37

were mentioned, but you have this

1:22:39

great group of books and

1:22:41

there's just so much to be learned

1:22:44

here. So Whipping Girl, A Transsexual Woman

1:22:46

on Sexism and the Scapegoating of Femininity,

1:22:48

the third edition, right? You said it was the third

1:22:51

one now, was just re-released

1:22:53

in 2024. Before

1:22:55

that, it was sexed up, how society

1:22:57

sexualizes us and how we can fight

1:22:59

back. Before that, 99 Ericks,

1:23:02

a cataclysm faux novel.

1:23:04

Before that, excluded, making feminists

1:23:07

and queer movements more inclusive.

1:23:09

And prior to that, outspoken,

1:23:12

a decade of transgender activism

1:23:14

and trans feminism. Thank

1:23:16

you so much for joining us. Yeah,

1:23:20

thanks once again. And everybody

1:23:22

listening, thank you for coming back week

1:23:24

after week. I'm really looking forward to the next

1:23:26

time we all get together.