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Kroger, fresh for everyone. Restrictions

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apply. Seaside for details. Hello,

0:34

everyone, and

0:36

welcome to

0:38

Talk Nerdy.

0:45

Today is Monday, January 15, 2024,

0:49

and I'm the host of the show, Cara Santa Maria.

0:52

Before we get into this week's episode, as always, I

0:54

want to thank those of you who make Talk Nerdy

0:56

possible. Remember, Talk Nerdy is

0:58

and will always be 100% free

1:01

to download, and that's mostly because

1:03

we rely on the support of

1:05

individuals just like you using kind

1:07

of the classic PBS or NPR

1:10

model. If you visit patreon.com slash

1:12

Talk Nerdy, you can pledge your support

1:14

on a per episode basis, and what

1:16

that does is it offsets the cost

1:18

so that I can offer it free

1:20

for everyone, even those who wouldn't otherwise

1:22

be able to afford to subscribe. This

1:25

week's top patrons include

1:27

Daniel Lang, David J.E.

1:29

Smith, Mary Neva, Brian

1:32

Holden, David Compton, Gabrielle

1:34

F. Jaramillo, Joe Wilkinson,

1:36

Paswali Jalati, and Orika

1:38

Hagman. Thank you all

1:40

so much. So this week we

1:42

have a

1:44

fascinating chat with Nell

1:47

Greenfield-Boys. She is

1:49

the A science correspondent for

1:51

NPR, for National Public Radio.

1:53

She actually started there back

1:55

in 2005, and prior to

1:57

that, she was working at Weekly News magazine.

2:00

including New Scientist and

2:02

US News and World Report.

2:05

And we're going to be talking about her

2:07

journey as part of the conversation. But

2:09

the main focus is on

2:11

her brand new book. It's

2:13

called Transient and Strange, Notes

2:16

on the Science of Life. So

2:18

without any further ado, here

2:20

she is, Nell Greenfield-Boy. Well

2:24

Nell, thank you so much for joining me today.

2:26

Oh, thanks for inviting me. I

2:29

am excited to talk about your new book,

2:31

but before we do, I want to get

2:33

in a little bit to your background and

2:36

kind of how you got where you are

2:38

today. And

2:40

when I say your new book, what I really

2:42

mean is your first book, which is really

2:45

exciting. So let's kind of start, maybe not

2:47

all the way at the beginning, but

2:49

let's back up a little bit. I want to

2:51

hear a little bit about what you do

2:53

as a science correspondent for NPR. I'm

2:56

curious, how long have you been doing

3:00

science journalism via broadcast?

3:03

So I first started in radio in 2005, which is

3:06

what, 17 years ago? Is that actually accurate,

3:12

18 years ago? Well, it's 2014 in like a

3:15

few days. It's

3:18

pretty horrifying to think that it's been that

3:20

long. It's been 2014. Yeah, I know. Oh

3:22

my God. So before that,

3:24

I worked for about 10 years as

3:26

a print reporter, mostly for weekly magazines,

3:28

which is kind of a medium that

3:30

doesn't really exist in the same way

3:32

anymore. People don't wait around for a

3:35

week for their news to be delivered

3:37

to them on dead trees. But

3:39

back in the day, weekly news magazines were

3:41

a thing and that was what

3:43

I mostly did. And then in 2005,

3:46

I got a chance to be hired

3:48

at NPR and it was pretty

3:50

exciting for me because it was a totally new

3:53

way of doing journalism. So

3:56

you were always, or I should say you started doing

3:58

kind of print journalism, did

4:01

you go to J school? Like how did you

4:03

get into science journalism? Because I find

4:05

that a lot of my guests come

4:08

up through one of two paths. They

4:10

either trained as scientists and then became

4:12

either science journalists or science communicators, or

4:14

they trained as journalists and then specialized

4:16

in science. Yeah, I definitely

4:18

went to college thinking I was going

4:20

to be a scientist. You know, I was a

4:22

biology major, I had worked in a lab as

4:24

a teenager, and I thought I was going to

4:26

work in a lab or do some sort of,

4:29

you know, ecology research or something like that. But

4:32

I just didn't really take to it. I, you

4:34

know, I sort of liked talking about

4:37

science more than actually doing it. And,

4:40

you know, I like hitting the highlights and like

4:42

hearing about the cool stuff. I wasn't

4:44

as into like spending potentially years working

4:46

on one small area

4:49

of science. And so

4:51

I just happened to be going to

4:53

a school Johns Hopkins, where they had

4:55

this program in writing about science. So

4:57

there were a couple

5:00

teachers, their instructors who sort of

5:02

specialized in having these classes in

5:04

writing about science. And I hadn't

5:07

really thought about the fact that, you

5:09

know, as a kid, I had read

5:11

all these like science magazines and watch

5:14

science documentaries and, you know,

5:16

been really into consuming kind of like

5:18

popular science, you know, communication and

5:20

journalism, but it hadn't really occurred to

5:22

me that that was like a job

5:25

that people made their living making that

5:27

stuff. And so once I

5:29

realized that that was a possibility, I kind

5:31

of never looked back. And I, you know,

5:33

I spent basically my entire career from, you

5:35

know, when I was 21 to now I'm

5:38

almost 50. I've been doing nothing but science

5:40

journalism. Wow.

5:42

Yeah, you know, I've, I've

5:44

always found and I've

5:46

been at it not quite as long

5:48

as you have. And I've kind of got a

5:50

mixed career because I went back to school partway

5:53

through my kind of psych comm

5:55

site, side journal work. But

5:57

I found really early on when I

5:59

was I would be called to make

6:03

an appearance, let's say, on a news program about

6:05

some sort of new science story,

6:08

that there was just this assumption that,

6:11

oh, you're a science person, so you

6:13

know all things about all science. And

6:15

that was always really frustrating for me

6:17

because I was like, no, no, I

6:19

have zero expertise in many areas, but

6:23

you're kind of expected to

6:26

do the work and to be capable

6:28

of being the go-to when it comes

6:30

to science. Has that been your experience

6:32

or have you not really seen it

6:34

that way? No, I think it's true, I think it's

6:36

true. I think people sort of lump

6:39

all of science together, even though

6:42

obviously particle physics is

6:44

very different from synthetic biology or geology or

6:47

something like that. But

6:51

I also would say that people seem to

6:53

have this deference

6:55

to science reporting that they

6:57

don't for some other kinds of

6:59

reporting, even though that reporting often

7:02

involves knowing all kinds of specialized

7:04

knowledge. So like politics,

7:06

I think, is often quite complicated,

7:08

like understanding all the rules about

7:11

how a law makes it or

7:13

not through Congress and understanding all

7:15

the election rules and everything like

7:17

that. There's a lot of really

7:19

sophisticated knowledge that people build up,

7:22

but I don't think people

7:24

have the same feeling

7:26

about that kind of reporting

7:28

or sports reporting, say, that they do about science

7:30

reporting. I find that kind of weird. It

7:33

is weird. And do you feel like there's

7:36

also been kind of a shift that even

7:38

though when it comes to science

7:40

journalism, there is sort of a

7:43

deference or a, oh, that's very

7:45

complex and you must really know

7:47

your stuff, but at the same

7:49

time that we're seeing obviously this

7:52

deep distrust that, I mean,

7:54

it's always kind of been there, but I think it's

7:56

being harnessed in new ways, but

7:58

this deep distrust. trust around

8:01

certain, at least aspects of science

8:03

that have maybe become politicized, like,

8:05

oh, this is now a tool

8:07

for trying to convince me of

8:09

your agenda, as opposed to this

8:11

is what it's always been,

8:13

which is trying our best to report based

8:16

on the evidence that's available to us. Yeah,

8:19

I don't know. I mean, you know, I think

8:21

science often gets mixed up into

8:25

political fights, and I think that's been true

8:27

for a long time. I do think there

8:29

is something to what you say about there

8:31

seems to be some more distrust than

8:34

maybe I would have anticipated,

8:37

you know, earlier in my career, like

8:39

if you look around, you know, COVID and the Centers

8:41

for Disease Control and Prevention and stuff like

8:44

that. So yeah, it

8:46

has changed, I think, you

8:48

know, I'm not somebody who has the numbers or

8:50

could could really explain it, but it definitely feels

8:53

that way. But you know,

8:55

at least for me, reporting about science has been

8:57

just this

9:00

glorious career where I've gotten

9:02

to, you know, sort of

9:04

go along with researchers, you

9:07

know, and hear about like their most exciting moments.

9:11

And also, you know, take

9:13

the skills of journalism and apply them to

9:15

science. You know,

9:17

it's just it's been fun. It's super fun. I

9:19

feel super lucky to have fallen into something

9:21

that I both enjoy and seem to be able

9:23

to do because I know not everybody, not

9:26

everybody figures that out as young as

9:28

I did. You

9:30

know, I'm curious throughout your career, given

9:32

that there have been some obviously

9:35

changes to the political

9:37

climate or to the zeitgeist. But

9:40

also given how rewarding and you know, fun,

9:42

honestly, this kind of work is, have you

9:45

seen a shift in the way that you

9:47

see your work? Has it continued to be

9:49

really rewarding? Or has it has it had

9:51

its highs and lows? Honestly,

9:54

it's no, I haven't seen a shift. I

9:56

mean, I'm, you know, out there doing the

9:58

same stuff that I've been doing. And, you know,

10:00

all I can do is, you

10:02

know, convey the science as best

10:05

I can and, you know,

10:10

put it out there for people to take in. So

10:15

I've got to ask then, you know,

10:17

we were mentioning before this idea of

10:19

sort of expertise or specialty journalism or,

10:21

you know, what are the areas where

10:24

we maybe have the

10:26

most knowledge or maybe we're just the most

10:29

interested. And I know that we all have

10:31

those things. So I'm curious if you're willing

10:33

to share, you know, what areas of science

10:36

are you like the most excited

10:38

when you, I don't know, have

10:40

an assignment or when you start to get interested

10:42

in a topic and what areas do you find

10:44

that you shy away from the most? Boy,

10:48

I mean, earlier in my career, I

10:50

reported a lot on sort

10:53

of genetics research and,

10:55

um, you know,

10:57

genetic engineering and DNA

11:00

and all stem cells, all

11:02

that kind of stuff. Um, cloning, that

11:05

was a big deal, right? Cloning. Um,

11:07

and as I've gotten older

11:10

and as I've worked in a place where there are

11:12

other people who like to cover that, I've covered a

11:14

lot of things that I didn't use to cover. Um,

11:17

so more like astrophysics and

11:19

gravitational waves and, you know,

11:22

planetary science. And I've

11:24

really enjoyed that. And I also really

11:27

enjoy, um, covering geology. Um, I

11:29

think there's a wide interest in,

11:32

um, geology, even though it doesn't get

11:34

as much coverage as, you know, there

11:36

are obviously some things that do get

11:38

coverage, like the volcanoes and earthquakes and

11:40

that sort of thing. But, um, I

11:42

think, you know, understanding, um, our earth

11:44

and understanding, um, you know, how we

11:47

came to be and understanding, you know,

11:49

whether there could be life on other

11:51

planets. Like those are all questions that

11:53

I think really excite people. Um,

11:56

what do I shy away from? I

11:58

mean, honestly, like right now. in my

12:01

job I tend to look

12:04

for stories that I think can be

12:06

conveyed over the radio

12:09

and over podcasts and so

12:11

you know anything that

12:13

has sound is a real plus

12:16

as I'm sure you may have

12:18

experienced and I think

12:20

that there's not

12:22

much I think I would shy away

12:25

from. It's really more of an issue

12:27

of not having enough time to do

12:29

all the stories that I would like

12:31

to do. There's an endless

12:33

number of stories out there and I'm only

12:36

one person and I can only do so

12:39

much and so there is this kind of process

12:41

of trying to figure out you know

12:43

not just what am I interested in but what do

12:46

I think other people will be interested in or

12:48

what is the research or

12:50

the you know area of investigation that

12:52

feels like sort of most urgent right

12:54

now or the sort of most potentially

12:57

compelling for for whoever would

12:59

encounter these stories. And

13:01

it also makes me wonder you know what

13:05

compelled you you started in print journalism

13:07

you've been working in broadcast journalism for

13:09

quite some time what compelled you to say okay

13:12

it's time I'm gonna sit down I'm gonna write

13:14

a full-length book and this is gonna be what

13:16

I write it about. It's

13:19

interesting I didn't sit down planning to

13:21

write a book I actually wrote a

13:23

couple essays for this friend of mine

13:26

who has a website called The Last Word

13:28

on Nothing it's sort of a blog where

13:30

a bunch of different

13:33

science journalists use it as

13:35

kind of like a playground I guess to write

13:37

pieces that maybe nobody's asking them to write

13:40

or you know just things that struck

13:42

their fancy or that they

13:44

wanted to express and so this

13:47

friend of mine asked me to write something for that and

13:49

so I did and I found I really enjoyed

13:51

writing essays and once

13:53

I started writing them I just kept writing them

13:55

and at a certain point you

13:58

know another friend of mine who published a book essays

14:00

told me like, wow, like you, you could really

14:02

like publish this as a book. Maybe you should

14:04

think about, you know, putting out a book. And

14:06

until that time, honestly, I hadn't, I hadn't thought

14:08

of it that way. I was just writing these

14:10

things for in my own enjoyment. And I thought

14:12

maybe at some point I would publish them somewhere.

14:15

Hmm, interesting. And so how long between

14:17

that process of like, you know, putting

14:19

those thoughts down and saying, okay, this

14:21

is gonna, this is it, this is

14:23

the one. This

14:27

is the one what that this is going to go in

14:29

a book or this is going to be like, this is

14:31

what because that's a huge commitment writing a full length of

14:33

book. Yeah, it is.

14:35

I mean, I think I had like, you know,

14:37

three or four essays done. And I

14:39

had like a pretty good idea about

14:41

some other things I wanted to

14:43

write about. And so when

14:45

did that process start? I mean, I

14:47

know that it started, I

14:49

have to go back like maybe

14:51

as far back as like 2018.

14:53

Is that possible? Yeah, that

14:56

sounds about right. I know what year is it?

14:58

It was definitely pre pandemic. Because

15:01

I know that for sure. That's

15:03

sort of my but but, you

15:05

know, it's been it's been years,

15:08

which is funny, because working in

15:10

daily journalism, like this kind

15:12

of timeframe is completely foreign to me,

15:14

like, you know, to have something that

15:16

I've been working on, you know, for

15:18

like five, six years, it feels very

15:20

odd. Yeah.

15:22

And and how many essays total were

15:25

did you end up including in Transient

15:27

and Strange? I think there's, there's 10

15:29

maybe, but one of them is a pretty

15:31

is a pretty long one. So hmm. How

15:34

did you choose what to include and what not

15:36

to include? Um, I, you

15:39

know, that was something that I discussed with

15:41

my editor at the publisher, WW

15:43

Norton. So that's

15:46

Matt Weiland. He's a great editor

15:48

who edits a lot of science

15:50

nonfiction books that have been very

15:53

well received. And he has a really good

15:55

sense about what a book is. And

15:58

how to shape a book and And

16:01

that's something that I don't have a

16:03

lot of experience with, even though I've worked in

16:05

journalism and writing for a long time. I've never

16:07

written a book. It's

16:09

an interesting thing to think about. And even

16:11

though I've been sort of surrounded by books

16:13

my whole life and have been reading books

16:15

my whole life, you think you

16:18

know what a book is. And then when you sit

16:20

down and you think, okay, well, what actually, what goes

16:22

in and what

16:25

order do they go in and what's the name of

16:27

this thing going to be and what's the cover going

16:29

to look like? It's just a very, very interesting

16:31

process. I was pretty fascinated by

16:33

the whole thing. And honestly, I feel lucky to have

16:35

had such a good editor and such a good publisher.

16:37

I feel like they really

16:40

have good instincts. And so I kind of lucked out

16:42

there. You

16:44

know, there's something really, really kind of fascinating

16:47

and beautiful about what you were just mentioning,

16:49

this idea. I liken it into

16:51

film. I have a lot of friends who are filmmakers and

16:53

I've worked in production for many years. When

16:55

you watch a movie

16:57

or a documentary or even a television

16:59

show or honestly even

17:02

a YouTube video, you don't

17:04

realize what

17:06

goes into it, right? What happens behind

17:08

the scenes to make that minute. Some

17:10

people will say, and obviously this number

17:13

varies depending on how you make it, but that

17:16

for about a minute of content, it's about an hour

17:18

of film. Sometimes

17:20

it's more, sometimes it's less. That's

17:23

really difficult, I think, for people to

17:25

fathom. And similarly, when

17:27

you read a book, that's hours

17:30

and hours of research

17:32

and brainstorming.

17:37

Like you said, speaking with your editor about,

17:39

what if we change this here and is

17:41

this wording right here and should this chapter

17:44

go before that chapter? And I

17:46

think for some people, that

17:48

process brings

17:50

the art form to a new

17:52

level and you develop a new

17:54

appreciation and it becomes elevated

17:57

for you. And for some people, It

18:00

feels overwrought and like I never fucking wanted

18:02

to do this again You

18:04

know what I mean? Like like being behind

18:06

the scenes makes takes the magic out of

18:09

it for me and i'm curious Are

18:11

you the former the latter somewhere in

18:13

between? um,

18:16

I don't know, I mean I think that you

18:18

know, it definitely I feel like I learned a

18:20

lot and I Do

18:22

think it's probably changed the way I

18:25

experience other books in the same way that you know

18:27

Having learned something about audio production

18:30

changes the way I listen to Podcasts

18:32

or to pieces on the radio, right? Like i'm

18:34

always kind of picking them apart in my head

18:36

and you know, I understand You

18:39

know little tricks they do or little choices they might

18:41

have made and I um And

18:43

so it adds this other dimension to me,

18:45

but it doesn't ruin anything for

18:47

me. It's you know, I can still um

18:50

You know, it's like uh, it's like

18:53

I could look at a flower and I

18:55

could enjoy that flower in a sort of

18:57

gestalt aesthetic sense But then I could also

19:00

learn every part of that flower and

19:02

learn like all the little you know names of

19:04

the parts And how they all work and learn

19:06

about its evolution and everything and I and I

19:08

would still enjoy the flower You know what I mean? Like

19:10

it doesn't it doesn't take anything away. Um So

19:14

I feel like you know, it just sort of

19:16

added to my understanding and and

19:18

certainly the the book publishing world is its

19:20

own kind of Community

19:23

and its own kind of like culture

19:25

and it's you know, I feel almost

19:27

sometimes like a sociologist or something learning

19:30

about about this world

19:33

a little bit Um, so it's I

19:35

don't I it wasn't it wasn't a negative

19:38

experience in any way for me I I

19:40

found the whole thing to be thoroughly enjoyable.

19:42

I mean even when there was work involved

19:44

It was work that uh, I

19:46

found Um, you know pretty pretty

19:48

engaging and you know, like I said, I was

19:50

lucky to work with some people who's whose

19:53

opinions I really respect so that made it easier

19:56

Yeah, so we've talked quite a bit about how the

19:58

sausage is made, but maybe if we focus a

20:00

little bit on the sausage, right? Or as

20:03

we would say in the psych world,

20:05

the content, not the process. I'm super

20:07

curious. I mean, this is

20:09

a personal book as well. It's not just

20:11

a book about the

20:14

natural world. It's not just a

20:16

book about science or

20:18

the science of life, as you put it in

20:20

the subtitle. But it's a

20:22

book about you and your intersection with

20:25

science and your life. So

20:28

I'd love to just kind of go

20:30

there a little bit with you. How

20:34

comfortable were you putting yourself out there

20:36

that way? I

20:39

don't know, like maybe not super comfortable.

20:41

I mean, I think that as a reporter who's

20:43

reporting for

20:48

a major news organization,

20:50

I'm more comfortable

20:53

being fairly sort

20:55

of not

20:57

the subject. I'm presenting information.

21:00

I'm not the focus

21:02

of whatever is being discussed.

21:04

So it was weird.

21:08

And some of the stuff I write

21:10

about is really quite personal. And do

21:14

I have trepidation to end up being out there? At first,

21:17

I might say yes. And then I

21:19

thought, I don't really care. I'm

21:22

like this middle aged lady.

21:24

You know what I mean? If somebody's reading

21:26

about this personal event from my

21:29

life, does it really affect me in any

21:31

way? Could it maybe help other people who've gone

21:35

through similar things? Or could it be just a

21:37

sort of communing in our shared humanity as people?

21:43

That seems like a worthy

21:45

thing to me. And obviously,

21:47

some of what was happening in these

21:50

essays is me taking some event from

21:53

my life, which is often a

21:55

pretty ordinary event, the kind of thing

21:58

that happens to lots of people. And then exploring

22:01

it through the

22:03

lens of someone who thinks a lot about

22:05

science and who, you

22:09

know, when I'm trying to understand things, you know,

22:11

a metaphor I might use might be a metaphor

22:13

from science, it might be thinking about a

22:15

scientist and how they

22:17

approach their work. And so it

22:20

was interesting to me to take these

22:24

two parts of my life that have been kept

22:26

pretty separate, which is the sort of science reporting

22:28

and then my kind of personal life and kind

22:31

of see what happened when they kind of like

22:33

fused together in this way. Yeah,

22:36

you know, from

22:40

a personal perspective, when I've shared

22:42

pretty intense personal things

22:44

on air and really grappled with

22:46

whether or not I wanted to talk about them

22:48

or I wanted to go there, usually

22:50

the motivating factor for me was something

22:54

that you mentioned, which was, you know, if

22:56

I'm going through this, other people have gone

22:58

through this and maybe they don't have the

23:01

privilege that I have of not just this

23:03

platform, but the background knowledge or the education

23:05

or the contacts or whatever. And so if

23:07

I can provide insight

23:10

or perspective or just, you

23:12

know, share tips, honestly, that maybe

23:15

I can help somebody. But what I often

23:17

found was that in doing it, I

23:21

myself processed

23:23

a little more, you know, it was

23:25

psychologically beneficial for me to share and

23:28

to put those things out there because they

23:30

helped me personally

23:33

move through maybe some

23:35

things that even if they happened in

23:37

the past, I was obviously still processing.

23:40

Did you find that actually writing these

23:42

essays and then ultimately editing them and

23:44

putting them in a book form

23:47

was therapeutic for you? I

23:50

mean, I definitely must have personally gotten something out

23:52

of it, right? Because I was writing them even

23:54

before I thought I was going to publish them

23:56

in a book, right? I found them to be...

24:00

interesting things

24:03

to explore. And the essay format

24:05

is very different from the kind

24:08

of writing I do for my day job, right? So

24:10

like for my day job, I

24:12

don't wanna say it's formulaic, but I mean, you

24:14

kind of know going into it what you

24:16

need to do, right? You have the

24:19

show or the podcast gives you a certain

24:21

amount of time. You kind

24:23

of know the story you wanna tell and you

24:25

sort of like work within those boundaries.

24:27

But with these essays, really

24:29

there were no boundaries at all. Like I could make

24:32

it as long as I wanted. I could make it

24:34

as short as I wanted. I could cover, put

24:36

science in there or not. And

24:39

so it was kind of just like, I

24:41

mean, I'm no like linguistics

24:44

expert, but the

24:46

word essay is closely related

24:48

to experimenting and trying. And

24:51

I think that

24:53

there was something about sort

24:55

of like working through certain things or

24:58

at least like taking different parts of my

25:00

life and looking at them from different angles. And

25:03

I think there is something to that, but I

25:06

also think that a lot of this stuff, at least

25:08

for me operates in a realm

25:10

that isn't totally

25:13

in my awareness. So

25:17

I'm not sure it was quite so,

25:23

what's the word, purposeful as you might

25:25

be suggesting. Do you know what I mean? Yeah,

25:27

yeah, yeah. It was just something I did. And

25:30

I really, I'm not even sure enjoyed it

25:33

is the right word. It

25:37

was very compelling to me. It was very compelling

25:39

to me to write these essays. And I hope

25:41

that if people read them, they find something in

25:43

them that they can take home and

25:47

will benefit them in some way.

25:50

Yeah, I mean, it does open an

25:52

interesting question, kind of a philosophical

25:54

question about art and the artist's relationship

25:56

to the art and the production of

25:59

art. for the

26:01

sake of processing

26:03

or for the sake of

26:05

experiencing something versus, I

26:07

think for many of us, existing in the capitalist

26:10

structure that we exist in, we

26:12

also create purposefully. We create because

26:14

we know that there's an end

26:16

user. I'm making a podcast because I

26:18

know I have listeners. I'm always

26:20

grappling with how much of this is

26:22

for me and just capricious on a

26:24

whim. This

26:26

is what I want to talk about right now versus

26:29

how much of it is a

26:31

purposeful process of healing

26:33

or of self-expiration or

26:36

introspection versus am

26:38

I producing something specifically because I know that

26:40

the user is going to want to hear

26:44

this arc and this payoff and this

26:46

whatever. I think we're always trying to

26:48

find a balance between those things, but

26:51

maybe those of us in different,

26:55

I don't know, with different expectations on

26:57

us. There's a difference between being your

26:59

own producer, for example, or between working

27:01

for a corporation versus being

27:04

self-employed. All of those different things

27:06

feed in. A

27:09

book I can imagine for you with a

27:11

slightly different exercise than your typical day job.

27:17

Oh, yeah. There's just nothing. They're

27:19

completely separate. Yeah. I

27:25

don't know. Maybe someone who, if there's

27:27

anyone who likes hearing my pieces on the

27:29

radio, I don't know what they would think of this book. I

27:32

hope they would find something in it that's

27:35

recognizable and that they get something out of.

27:44

But it's definitely a different beast, that's

27:46

for sure. Yeah. Do

27:48

you feel like your voice is different

27:50

in it? My

27:54

voice versus speaking on the radio? Yeah.

27:57

I mean, not like your physical voice, but you know what

27:59

I mean, like your voice. like the you and

28:01

how you come through your radio pieces versus

28:03

how you come through your writing? I

28:07

don't know the answer to that. It's really hard to,

28:10

you know, it's really hard to,

28:13

you know, it's like, you

28:15

know, asking someone like,

28:17

does this drawing look more like the real you?

28:19

Or does this photograph more like the real you?

28:21

It's like, I don't know, you know, like, I

28:23

can't see myself the way other people see me.

28:26

I can only just, you know, be who

28:30

I am in whatever medium is there. Yeah.

28:33

But I do think

28:35

that it's, you

28:37

know, I miss, I think that, you know,

28:41

I didn't get much of a

28:43

chance to do this kind of writing. You

28:45

know, for NPR, we do

28:47

podcasts, and we do news pieces,

28:50

and we also do print

28:52

pieces of our stories that go on our

28:54

website. So it's not as if I wasn't

28:57

writing in print, I have been writing in

28:59

print. But this

29:01

is a sort of more creative kind of writing,

29:03

a more personal writing. And

29:06

it's, you know, something

29:08

that maybe I've done in my private life

29:10

a lot, like, you know, letters to friends

29:12

and journals and, you know, stories when I

29:14

was young, but it's not, it's not

29:17

something I've had a chance to do as

29:19

an adult, like in public. And so in

29:21

that way, it feels pretty, it feels

29:23

pretty different. Yeah. You

29:26

know, I'm gonna try to

29:28

frame this next question in

29:31

an understandable way, but it is

29:33

definitely meandering in my mind right

29:35

now. And so I'm not sure

29:37

how well I can catch it

29:39

and formulate it into a reasonable

29:41

question. But I'm reminded

29:43

a little bit, and I

29:46

know I go to this topic a lot on

29:48

my show, so bear with me listeners. I'm reminded

29:50

a bit of when Lulu Miller was

29:52

on the show, and sort of grappling

29:54

with this big question of

29:56

categories of taxonomy, of

29:59

constrain. constructs. Science

30:01

is a process,

30:04

but science is also, for many

30:06

people, we can't ignore the fact

30:08

that it's like a topic, it's

30:11

a category. That's science over here,

30:13

whereas that's not science over there.

30:15

But we know that science fundamentally

30:17

does imbue everything. And

30:21

this is an important part

30:23

of your book, is you were

30:25

sort of using the science lens

30:27

to tell these deeply personal stories.

30:31

So my question, I guess, is I can

30:34

imagine that there becomes this

30:36

sort of mad

30:39

area where you're losing

30:41

the boundaries

30:43

a little bit and

30:45

questioning what even is

30:47

science anymore because it's everything

30:49

and everywhere. How did

30:52

you maintain that perspective as you

30:55

wrote or did it just come

30:57

naturally? I

30:59

don't know. I mean, I

31:01

have always thought that journalists

31:03

and scientists have a lot in

31:08

common in general. I

31:11

think that both

31:13

groups of people want

31:16

to get to the bottom of things. They

31:18

want to know as close as possible

31:20

what the real deal is. And what

31:23

they want to see is evidence. They want

31:25

to see hard evidence, hard facts. And

31:28

they don't really particularly care who those hard

31:30

facts come from. Do you know what I

31:32

mean? There's not an inherent respect

31:38

for people who are the most

31:41

famous or the most revered or

31:43

whatever. It really is

31:45

based on the data. And

31:47

both scientists and journalists would

31:49

like nothing more than to

31:51

overturn some commonly accepted understanding

31:55

of the

31:57

universe. So I mean, I could

31:59

go on and in the ways that I think

32:01

there are similarities. And so I think already like

32:04

my view of sort of how

32:07

I perceive the world and how I move

32:09

around in it is pretty closely tied with

32:13

the scientific enterprise is values

32:15

just in general, if

32:17

that makes any sense. And so,

32:21

you know, I think that it's

32:25

sort of a philosophical

32:27

orientation, right? Like

32:30

I did, I

32:32

wrote another essay very recently about how

32:35

to think about Santa Claus, like with my

32:38

children. And, you know, there's

32:40

always these like, you know, big

32:42

debates, like, you know, should you tell your kids

32:44

that Santa is real or not? And it's, you

32:46

get into these very judgmental things

32:49

between parents where some people are like, well,

32:51

you're depriving the kids of joy. And other

32:53

people say, well, you're like lying to your kids. And

32:56

I mean, to me, I've always sort of, you

32:58

know, enjoyed

33:01

watching my children investigate Santa, like

33:04

as a phenomenon. And

33:06

like, I don't see a

33:09

big distinction between rational

33:12

thinking and like amazement

33:15

and enjoyment of the

33:17

world. And so

33:21

to me, I don't guess, I

33:23

guess I'm not really very concerned about

33:25

like different categories of my life getting

33:28

mixed up together. I don't know, I'm not quite sure what

33:30

the question was that you were asking, but it

33:33

didn't, it doesn't particularly concern

33:35

me. I feel like there's a lot of

33:38

similarities and a lot of like, you

33:41

know, and likewise, I think

33:43

science, you know, has

33:45

a lot of elements to

33:47

it that are involving metaphor

33:49

and play and, you know,

33:52

imaginative exercises. And so like

33:54

for me, the line

33:56

is pretty thin already. I'm

34:00

so I the other really sure about

34:02

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evaluation know at my computer career.edu financial is

35:00

available for all of us to it's including

35:02

the G I bill. You.

35:06

Know it's interesting because I I'd legacy say

35:08

that I just I feel you on that

35:10

you know what I mean and I don't

35:12

even know if I can intellectual eyes as

35:14

much as I I feel you that that

35:16

line is sort of. Sin.

35:19

Is that there are these. I

35:21

don't know these. Themes and

35:23

life. These experiences or

35:25

these scientific. I don't think

35:28

of them as buckets or categories, but. That's.

35:31

You. Know, looking at your book and looking at this

35:33

sort? Of topics that you choose to

35:36

focus on and the personal stories that

35:38

you choose to tell. I

35:40

can't help but. See.

35:43

Your. Experiences through

35:45

my own. Kind. Of psychology

35:47

lands right his I was a neuroscientist.

35:50

Recently became a psychologist but have

35:52

also been working in science, journalism

35:54

and. My. Psychology.

35:57

The worst that I do in clinical

35:59

work is. Very much. Existentially

36:03

oriented. And so there

36:05

are these themes that come up

36:07

in the work that I do

36:09

with patients you know, death of

36:12

Fear of Death or grappling with

36:14

deaths of freedom, responsibility, meaning, loneliness

36:16

and connect sense. And it's so

36:18

interesting to me that when I

36:21

look at that affects and the

36:23

the So savior different essays, those

36:25

themes com up again and again

36:27

and again. And maybe it's because.

36:30

As many philosophers and and

36:32

psychologists and scientists have grappled.

36:35

With. For through like literally millennia,

36:37

these are fundamental themes of.

36:40

Humanism. You know of

36:42

being alive, but I'm curious.

36:44

For you, did these essays just kind

36:46

of com about as you were. You

36:49

know, do they stumble out of your head

36:51

or were you like really grappling with certain

36:53

seems when he wrote them. I

36:56

wouldn't say you know explicit seems,

36:58

but I mean I certainly think

37:00

that. That. You.

37:03

Know sort of existential questions

37:05

are. Often weigh heavily on my mind

37:08

as they as many people who think

37:10

about of their own. Existence and their

37:12

place in the universe. I mean, you

37:14

know I. I do think that it.

37:18

It may is brought into sharper relief

37:20

at least for me when I had

37:22

kids because. The questions kids

37:24

have or not. Or

37:27

not confined to like easy factual

37:29

questions re like you know they're

37:31

trying to like figure out the

37:33

universe and themselves and like you're

37:36

watching them do it and you

37:38

know there is there are. Explorations

37:41

resonate very strongly with your own because like

37:43

you know they looks you for answers and

37:45

like what he was to tell them my

37:47

i don't know any mean like nobody knows

37:49

if. We people have been grappling with

37:51

these questions for millennia and you just

37:53

let the title of. The books,

37:55

for example. my

37:58

editor met while and suggested that he sort

38:00

of plucked it out of one of the

38:02

essays where, I'm

38:04

referencing a poem by Walt Whitman, which

38:07

is a poem about meteors. And

38:09

he's talking about these meteors that

38:12

took place back in the

38:14

19th century, this

38:16

like day of meteors. And he talks

38:18

about the meteors and he writes about

38:21

them, but then he says,

38:24

you're a transient and strange, but like,

38:26

look at me, like I too am

38:28

transient and strange, and like I'm

38:31

splitting through life, I'm splitting through the universe

38:33

and I'm gonna fall and then I'll be

38:35

gone. And like, what am I and what

38:37

is this book? But

38:39

another meteor, right? And

38:42

so I do think that like, when

38:44

people look at the natural world, they

38:49

often think about these questions, like they're

38:51

not just thinking like, what

38:53

is that meteor and like, where did it

38:56

come from? Like what part of the solar

38:58

system and how fast does it

39:00

fall? And what makes the light and

39:02

can I find the meteor and what's

39:04

its elemental composition? I mean, there's all that stuff

39:06

too, but they're layered on

39:08

top of it, are these

39:11

rich human questions. And I

39:13

don't think that scientists or

39:15

any less prone to

39:19

having those sorts of concerns.

39:23

And I do think that all

39:25

those issues you raise, like

39:29

issues of connection

39:31

with other people and purpose and

39:35

like, what does it all

39:37

mean? I mean,

39:39

that is very much like, it's

39:42

very much sort of thematically linking

39:44

all of these essays, even though

39:46

the essays are about very different

39:49

things, so there's essays about doodling

39:51

and essays about fleas and black

39:53

holes and tornadoes and DNA

39:56

testing, but there's a very

39:58

strong like excess. It's like a sensualism

40:00

vibe through the whole thing, I would say. Yeah.

40:04

It's, and I guess maybe that is

40:06

what was going back to that question

40:08

that I was struggling

40:10

to articulate was that

40:13

even when there are these really discrete categories,

40:15

like it's so easy to say, this is

40:17

about tornadoes or this is about fleas. It's

40:20

really not just about that because the categories

40:22

start to broaden and

40:24

blur and that sort

40:26

of existential, very

40:29

humanistic, fundamental

40:32

nature of sort of questioning our

40:34

place in the cosmos. It

40:37

just keeps crawling

40:40

out from underneath this sort

40:42

of clean, ostensible

40:45

category, right? Like it's just always

40:47

there. And even if

40:49

we're talking about something like string

40:52

theory, which feels very,

40:54

I don't know, esoteric

40:59

to something really specific, like

41:02

what color was the pigment

41:04

of this dinosaur based

41:07

on these fossil skin impressions that

41:09

we're looking at, like that

41:11

fundamental stuff of what

41:14

does it all mean? It just keeps oozing out.

41:16

And I think you captured it really beautifully. And

41:20

I guess in, upon reflection, maybe it's not

41:22

so different from some of my radio

41:25

work. Like I was just thinking about

41:27

like during the pandemic, I did a

41:29

story about a moldy Twinkie.

41:31

So it was this Twinkie that had

41:33

been sitting around and got like extremely

41:35

moldy and shriveled. And it got the

41:37

attention of some scientists who

41:39

study fungi and they wanted to understand what

41:41

had happened there. So

41:44

I wrote what was ostensibly like

41:46

a quirky, funny, cute story about

41:48

this Twinkie that had been in

41:50

somebody's basement for like eight years

41:52

or whatever. But I found

41:54

that it took a really dark turn at the

41:57

end, like thinking about how like everything

41:59

decayed. Like you know our fate will

42:01

be the same as the Twinkie and

42:03

the end and stuff like that And

42:05

you know I think some people I read some

42:07

online comments that were like wow this really Wasn't

42:09

what I thought it was going to be like

42:12

it took this very grim turn But I can't

42:14

help it. I get that that's just where my

42:16

thoughts go. I guess Well,

42:18

and is it actually grim or

42:20

is it actually morbid or is it really?

42:26

Honest you know what I mean like I think that

42:28

sometimes When

42:31

we try to reduce

42:34

the fraction you know like when we

42:36

when we try to really go

42:39

there and and I don't know

42:41

like grapple with the

42:43

undercurrent of whatever it is we're grappling

42:46

with Those topics just

42:48

keep coming like we're gonna get back to

42:50

mortality Eventually, and

42:52

so is that really grim or is that

42:54

actually just human and have we as a

42:56

society I think labeled

42:59

like thinking about mortality and

43:01

thinking about our existence as

43:03

something that's dark or Morbid

43:06

I mean I guess technically it is morbid based

43:08

on the definition of the term But

43:10

is or is it like kind of healthy

43:12

to you know to go there together?

43:15

I don't know. I don't know

43:17

maybe not all the time Yeah,

43:20

probably not and

43:22

I think to counterbalance it like you do so

43:24

well with kind of humor

43:27

and That quirky

43:29

like you mentioned kind of absurdity.

43:31

I think is really important And

43:35

I think that science offers us a really

43:37

good platform for that as well Right like

43:39

you get to go there to some pretty

43:41

intense places but you also get

43:43

to just marvel in the awe and

43:45

wonder and just like weirdness of what

43:47

is there's so much work

43:51

to Scientific exploration as

43:53

you have so kind of wonderfully

43:56

captured throughout your broadcast work

43:58

and and in this book How

44:01

fun re else Fun! What a

44:03

great job You have The world.

44:05

The universe is extremely weird. It's

44:07

true, A success. And so

44:09

you know you did mention one

44:12

thing. And. I'd love to kind of just follow

44:14

on that on that the read before we start

44:16

to wrap up, but. Your experience.

44:20

In. Your relationship and

44:22

especially or experience in

44:25

motherhood saved a lot

44:27

of. The way that

44:29

you approach this. And so

44:32

I'm curious. He. Know.

44:34

How old are your kids? Now if you're

44:36

if you're comfortable saying oh sure Other thirteen

44:39

and ten. So. Have they read

44:41

the book? Then

44:43

you know I'm they have an express any interest in

44:45

it and you know I talk to them. About

44:47

it obviously. As I

44:49

was writing it and they

44:51

don't seem that interested me.

44:53

It's Esa, you know they

44:55

got their own stuff going

44:57

on and you know it's

44:59

always fry when somebody. Writes

45:02

about their kids and.

45:05

You know there's this balance. Between.

45:07

Privacy and. And

45:09

be able to write about your own experiences

45:11

re it like if I was never able

45:14

to write about being a parent like that

45:16

would be very limiting and what I can

45:18

express. So it

45:20

definitely is something I gave a

45:23

lot of thought to and you

45:25

know, sort of. Deputized.

45:27

My husband to sort of make sure that.

45:30

That. That line was tread carefully.

45:34

Yeah, I definitely think. You know

45:36

it. And he makes its pop up

45:38

in the book quite a bit. An Emmy I

45:40

think that they are. They come across as. Awesome

45:43

as they are Awesome assess.

45:45

This. They're definitely a.

45:49

Wise. And a source

45:51

of of consolation for me.

45:53

Assists in In In in

45:56

the In In in what.

45:58

Can. Be difficult situation. But.

46:01

Yeah, I mean I think the. A

46:03

lot of it. Is like watching your kids trying to

46:05

figure out the world you sort of like. It

46:08

makes you think about like will, how am I

46:10

doing in my figuring out the world assess like

46:12

you know, weeks you. Take

46:15

stock of where you've reached in your own

46:17

thoughts about things, and whether you need to

46:19

push yourself a little more. Yeah.

46:22

You know I have. I'm. I'm not a

46:24

parent a I don't ever intend

46:26

to be a parent bus. My

46:28

best friend, Ah, just had her

46:30

first and likely only kid. You

46:32

know we're We're also a little

46:34

older. And it's been

46:36

really interesting watching. Her It

46:38

navigate parenthood in her early forties

46:40

and you know, with a very,

46:43

very young, a toddler and. The.

46:45

Reflection that she will often. Say

46:47

to me I mean out She said it now multiple

46:49

times. I know it's really. Salient for her

46:52

is. That. When

46:54

you first. Or parenting a

46:56

child. So much of it is sort of

46:58

like repair. And seeing yourself and notice

47:00

saying all of the things that may

47:02

be like the places where you don't

47:05

have a lot of patience or the

47:07

places where you know you are reacting

47:09

a certain way. probably because there was.

47:12

A part of you that never

47:14

learned how to you know experience

47:16

that are never was. Veto.

47:19

Coats through that experience and so

47:21

it's been really interesting. I

47:24

don't know I hear that parallel any

47:26

you this ideas at lake as you're.

47:29

Helping. Foster or

47:32

navigate. These. Big

47:34

existential and humanistic issues from

47:36

you know, through your children's

47:38

eyes. That you're having to grapple with

47:41

them yourself. and okay, yeah, I gotta

47:43

go there. I've been avoiding that are

47:45

I've been ignoring that. But obviously if

47:47

my kid and this beautiful and of

47:49

wide eyed wondrous way is. Is

47:52

confronting. These big issues

47:54

head on fearlessly. Like

47:57

where. Where's. my fear

47:59

coming from I need to be

48:01

able to confront these things as well. Yeah.

48:03

I often think of it as like

48:05

walking this tight rope of honesty without

48:07

letting anybody fall into despair. Do you

48:10

know what I mean? I love that

48:12

so much. At

48:15

no point will you lie, but

48:19

you also want to be a

48:23

hopeful demonstration of living

48:25

despite the uncertainties. Yeah.

48:30

Not to take it to that dark or

48:32

morbid place, but even though your kiddos, since

48:34

they are still pretty young, are not showing a

48:36

lot of interest now. What a

48:38

gift that you've given them as you do

48:40

continue to age, and as they start to

48:42

develop that awareness of their

48:44

own mortality and the mortality of their

48:47

parents. What a beautiful gift to give

48:49

your kids because, trust me, it

48:52

might not be interesting now, but it will

48:54

be deeply meaningful to them when you're gone,

48:56

or at least as you continue to get

48:58

older. That's just incredible

49:00

because most of us don't have

49:02

those gifts from our parents. We

49:04

don't have the inner

49:08

dialogue that they

49:10

existed with or grappled with for so

49:12

long put to paper

49:15

for us. We might

49:17

have little fleeting moments, letters

49:19

or cards that

49:21

capture little moments of their

49:24

thoughts on things, but we

49:26

don't have this deeper

49:29

project of

49:32

how they thought and how they grappled

49:34

with those things. What a beautiful thing

49:36

for your children to have as

49:39

they continue through this weird

49:41

thing we call life. Well,

49:44

we'll see. There's no telling. There's

49:46

no telling what the future will bring. True.

49:50

Well, gosh, now, I

49:52

always close my

49:54

podcast by asking my guests the

49:57

same two big picture

49:59

questions. Before I get to those, I'm just

50:01

curious, is there anything that

50:03

you wish we would have touched on,

50:05

anything specific that you are ensuring

50:07

that you mention when you do these

50:09

interviews that we haven't mentioned yet? I

50:14

don't think so. I think

50:16

that it's

50:19

a book that hopefully will

50:22

teach people some more about the history

50:24

of science and how it

50:27

continues to sort of echo through

50:29

the ages and impact our

50:31

own lives in various ways.

50:33

But hopefully it's a book

50:35

that people can relate to and that

50:37

if they read it, they'll think

50:41

about things in new ways or maybe feel

50:46

less alone in their thoughts. I'm just not really

50:48

sure. It's exciting to me to

50:51

think about people having this object,

50:53

this book, this thing that we made and

50:56

making it their own. It's really kind of out

50:58

of my hands at the moment. It's got its

51:00

own life separate from me. Yeah,

51:03

it's so very transient and strange.

51:06

I have to ask, as

51:09

I do on every

51:12

episode, I keep saying I'm going to do

51:14

something with these answers, but I'm coming up

51:16

on episode 500 and I've done nothing yet.

51:18

Also, we'll see. But I'm

51:21

going to ask you some questions that are sort

51:23

of big picture and they have to do with

51:25

the future. The first is,

51:28

as you think about the future,

51:30

in whatever context feels relevant to

51:32

you right now, that could

51:35

be very personal. It could be professional.

51:38

It could be local,

51:40

familial. It could be global. It

51:42

could be cosmic. The

51:45

first question is, what

51:47

is keeping you up the most at night? Where

51:50

are you struggling? Maybe

51:53

you're feeling pessimistic or

51:56

even cynical when

51:58

you think about the future. the flip side

52:00

of that to maybe not introduce such a

52:02

downer. Where

52:05

are you finding your optimism? What are

52:07

you genuinely looking forward to? Looking

52:11

forward to in the future? Yeah. First,

52:13

what's really keeping you up

52:16

at night? What are you struggling with? What

52:18

are you feeling pessimistic about? Then on the

52:20

flip side, what are you looking forward to?

52:22

What are you optimistic about? Well,

52:26

on a global level,

52:28

I mean, climate change is pretty hard

52:30

not to worry about. Like that is

52:33

concerning, super concerning. And

52:37

as for what I'm looking forward to,

52:39

I am very interested in

52:50

where the country will go in the next

52:52

50 years or so.

52:55

I'm just very interested in seeing

52:59

what things look like when I'm getting

53:01

ready to check out. I have seen

53:03

a lot of change over

53:05

my lifetime and I expect that there will be

53:07

a lot more. I'm excited to see. It's

53:10

like I'm

53:13

in the middle of a book and I can't

53:15

get to the end yet. I can't skip

53:17

ahead. I have to take it as slow as

53:19

I've been reading it. But what I'd really like to do is

53:21

just skip ahead and see what was going

53:23

to happen. Yeah. Oh, I love that. Well,

53:27

gosh, it's been such a pleasure

53:29

to chat with you today to

53:31

learn so much and to dive

53:33

deep into your brand new book,

53:35

Transient and Strange, Notes on the

53:37

Science of Life. Thank you so

53:39

much for being here now. Thanks for having me

53:41

on the show. And everybody listening,

53:44

thank you for coming back week after week.

53:46

I'm really looking forward to the next time

53:48

we all get together. Okay,

53:55

round two. Name something that's

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not boring. Computer

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