0:05

Welcome, welcome, welcome. We

0:10

are talking politics and religion

0:13

without killing each other.

0:21

I am your host. And by the way, sometimes

0:23

you talk about politics and not religion without killing

0:25

each other. And you'll see what I'm

0:27

talking about in a second. I'm your host,

0:29

Corey Nathan. It is an honor to be

0:31

a part of the Democracy Group, which is

0:33

a network of podcasts that examines what's broken

0:35

in our democracy and how we can work

0:37

together to fix it. And

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people into the conversation so that more

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folks can participate in the conversations like

1:00

the one we're having today with

1:03

Kate Cohen. Kate Cohen

1:05

is a Washington Post columnist who

1:07

writes about the intersection of culture,

1:09

family and politics. I've been enjoying

1:11

her column for years and

1:13

she is the author of three books, which I've

1:16

been enjoying. I haven't read the middle one yet,

1:19

but we'll be talking about the most

1:21

recent one, which is titled We of

1:23

Little Faith, Why I Stopped Pretending to

1:26

Believe, and maybe you should too.

1:28

What I

1:30

love about this title is that it's kind

1:32

of like you saying, I'll take your whole

1:34

proselytization thing and I'll raise you a gentle

1:36

suggestion. I

1:40

really appreciated that. Was that part

1:42

of thinking or what? The

1:45

whole subtitle thing, well, the whole title

1:47

thing goes on for years or in

1:49

my own head and then with my

1:51

agent and then the

1:54

people that we sold

1:57

this idea to really like

2:00

like we have little faith, but then it was

2:02

a whole process of the

2:04

subtitle and getting just the right

2:06

amount of humor.

2:09

You know, I mean, I

2:13

strive to be entertaining and funny. And

2:16

so getting just the right amount of

2:18

humor, getting all the information in there,

2:20

you know, this is a

2:22

memoir about my own

2:25

journey. It

2:28

also, you know, posits

2:33

a destination of like honesty

2:35

about one's beliefs

2:39

as a good place to be

2:41

personally and politically. And so

2:43

I wanted to get that in there, you know, I

2:45

didn't want to be scoldy.

2:47

It was tough, but I like what we came

2:50

up with. It always makes me smile

2:52

when I say the entire title. And

2:56

I think that's a good song. I like it.

2:58

It is an art like making a

3:00

title or, you know, distilling an

3:02

entire piece of work or in this case,

3:04

a memoir, so an entire life down to

3:06

a few words. There's an art to

3:08

that. I did want

3:10

to start, I've never done this before. And the

3:13

way that I want to start, I'm

3:15

going to share something with you

3:17

and I just want to get your

3:19

reaction to it. And let me know

3:22

if you can hear this. Can

3:26

you hear that? There's

3:30

199 churches. I

3:35

love that song. Isn't

3:42

it great? I

3:47

might need some help with copyright. I

3:52

look into it for you. Walking

4:01

over water, or

4:04

melting in the arms of his

4:06

mother. After

4:10

a lifetime of raising

4:13

the dead, one miracle

4:15

looks a lot like any

4:17

other. That's

4:20

great. All

4:22

right, so tell me, what does that, can

4:25

you describe what you're experiencing when you listen to music

4:27

like that? I

4:31

mean, I confess to being proud. That's my

4:33

son. It's really

4:36

good, by the way. He's really good. Oh,

4:39

man. He is so

4:41

good. And that's so, that

4:43

makes me so happy that you found it,

4:45

because, you know, he is very, just for

4:49

everybody listening, my son is

4:51

Jesse Cohen Greenberg, and he features prominently

4:53

in the book, We Have Little Faith,

4:56

because part of it is a memoir

4:58

of Raising My Kids. And

5:00

he's the musician who keeps popping up

5:03

in various spots, and now he's a

5:05

senior in college, and that was, he

5:07

put his first album together.

5:09

It's available everywhere. But nobody's

5:12

really listening to it, because he's just

5:14

so much more interesting. I

5:16

mean, he loves to perform, and he loves to

5:18

compose, and he just moves on to the next

5:20

one. And I keep saying, Jesse, you got to

5:22

get on TikTok, you got to get, you know,

5:24

all that stuff. But he's good, isn't he? You

5:27

know, when I heard it, I was

5:29

almost done with the book, and I started listening to

5:32

the music. And when I heard

5:34

it, I'm like, this makes so much sense.

5:36

Like musical virtuosity, but there's a whimsy to

5:38

it and a literacy to it. And

5:40

it's just all the things that like, it just

5:42

makes so much sense. It's

5:45

inspiring. Yeah,

5:48

there, I would say all my kids

5:50

are writers, you know, and yeah,

5:55

and Jesse, absolutely. He has that musical

5:58

part too, but the writing. the

6:00

whimsy, the wordplay. Yeah.

6:03

You know, one of the things I was curious about, it

6:06

turns out that our kids are almost exactly the

6:09

same ages. When

6:11

you told me in our notes before we got on,

6:14

you know, when we were sharing notes in the subsequent

6:16

days and weeks, and you said your kids are 23,

6:18

21, and 18, I'm

6:20

like, oh man, I'll pray for you. Ha ha

6:22

ha. Ha ha ha. Ha ha ha. Well,

6:25

and I will say, I appreciate

6:27

that. I appreciate that. I

6:30

do not reject that. So there

6:33

was a clarity as you described certain

6:35

decisions that you were making, and how

6:37

you were gonna raise your kids, not just

6:39

about raising your kids atheists,

6:41

which we'll talk about, but there

6:44

were other just, I

6:46

don't know, you had this equilibrium that you were able

6:48

to articulate. I don't know if you articulated it that

6:50

way at the time, but certainly in the book about,

6:55

for example, when

6:58

they lied to you, that you understood what

7:00

that was, that they were sort of prisoners

7:02

in this world of yours, and

7:04

the only space of freedom that they had was when

7:06

they had a thought, and in

7:09

between that and what they said.

7:11

Like just, how were you able

7:13

to arrive at that kind of

7:15

clarity, and to maintain

7:17

that as sort of like the compass,

7:20

a bunch of these things, a lot

7:22

of this wisdom, around which you raised your

7:24

kids? I don't

7:26

think I always was clear

7:29

in the moment when

7:32

I raised my kids, but I

7:35

was pretty good at sort of

7:37

depersonalizing our

7:40

interactions and understanding that sometimes

7:45

I had to play a role, sometimes they had to

7:47

play a role. I

7:49

mean, maintaining,

7:55

it's probably some of it is simply

7:57

the way I am. You know, I'm

7:59

kind of, very even keel

8:02

and I don't get angry easily.

8:08

So I don't necessarily

8:10

take credit for, mastering

8:15

my lesser

8:18

emotions. They just don't, I

8:22

don't know. It doesn't

8:24

seem like it's as big a hard thing for me

8:26

to sort of be like, okay, I

8:29

understand that you're saying you hate

8:31

me. I know you don't

8:33

hate me. I don't have to rise to

8:35

that kind of, emotional

8:39

challenge. And in

8:41

fact, it might help

8:44

you if I don't. I

8:46

don't know that that's always true. Sometimes I

8:48

felt like I should show them when they're

8:50

hurtful, they need to

8:52

know. It's a balance. And

8:55

I think what I say to anyone who

8:59

had children even

9:05

slightly after I did, because of course, one of

9:07

the great joys of having kids is

9:10

that then you get to advise other parents. So

9:12

I always say, I always say, you

9:19

can always revise, you can always go

9:21

back. And

9:24

in fact, it's a wonderful thing to teach your

9:26

kids that you can say, hey, wait, what

9:28

we were talking about, I don't think I said it right.

9:30

Or I apologize

9:33

for reacting the way I did. Or

9:35

all those things, I tried to keep

9:37

that in mind. It's

9:40

an ongoing thing. So I was

9:42

good at it sometimes, and I sometimes had

9:44

to remind myself about it. But yeah, lying,

9:48

I did have friends who

9:50

would be so mad that

9:52

their kid lied to them. I

9:55

mean, in that situation, I kind of get

9:57

it. I get why they hid this from

9:59

you, how you would have responded

10:01

and you know they weren't doing the thing that

10:03

they thought was the smartest in the moment so

10:06

but lying I mean that

10:08

that that's I do go

10:10

off on a little detour about lying

10:12

because I am fascinated by it um

10:16

I'm fascinated by the fact that um what

10:20

is going on inside our heads doesn't

10:24

necessarily show through um

10:27

that seems like an amazing thing that we

10:29

can keep those two things separate but

10:32

it's not always um it's

10:34

not always the best way

10:37

to go um and in terms

10:39

of raising kids I felt really

10:41

early on um like

10:44

I needed to be honest with them in order

10:47

to have an a really strong

10:49

relationship with them where they could

10:52

see the way that I saw the world

10:55

clearly and not you know through

10:57

any kind of I don't

10:59

know obfuscation yeah yeah

11:01

one of the moments in the book

11:03

that stood out for me was how

11:07

unmomentous if you will the

11:10

when you started when you decided to raise your

11:12

kids as atheists so I was wondering if you

11:14

could describe if you could describe that

11:16

moment that decision sure

11:19

um well

11:22

before that moment I think

11:25

was this um realization that

11:27

I felt when I

11:29

had kids that

11:33

I was responsible for what they knew

11:36

about the world when they're little it's

11:38

just amazing you can help them anything

11:40

right yeah and and

11:43

it is this awesome responsibility

11:45

um which

11:48

I was determined to rise to

11:50

and so um you know

11:53

the beginning of the book kind of chronicles a

11:57

few decades of more

12:02

or less pretending that I was a believer, I

12:05

was raised reform Jewish. We

12:09

did sort of all this, all the things,

12:11

synagogue and Sunday school and I was bought

12:13

mitzvah. And I really

12:16

didn't let anybody know

12:19

for the longest time

12:21

that I never believed

12:23

any of the things that I was saying,

12:26

I enjoyed,

12:28

I kind of enjoyed, I enjoyed

12:30

a lot of it. I enjoyed

12:34

all the family stuff. I enjoyed, I

12:38

enjoyed learning my prayers for my bought

12:40

mitzvah. I'm enjoying, you know, so I

12:42

took pleasure in it. But I never

12:45

believed that there was an actual supernatural,

12:48

you know, being in charge. And

12:50

I didn't tell anybody or ask my

12:52

parents what they actually thought any And

12:55

this kind of went on and I

12:58

married another non believer,

13:00

he knew what I really thought. But

13:03

he was raised Jewish.

13:05

Also, we have a Jewish

13:07

wedding. And you know,

13:10

there was just a certain amount of

13:13

not wanting

13:15

to rock the boat with the

13:17

in laws, not knowing that I

13:19

couldn't really thinking that I

13:21

couldn't really tell people that I didn't believe

13:23

in God, that people sort of expect you

13:25

to believe in God is sort of like

13:27

a baseline, decent thing. Anyway, all

13:30

of that is sort of the background.

13:33

For me sort of politely, hiding

13:36

the fact that I didn't believe. And

13:40

then I had kids, and I

13:42

just couldn't sort of

13:45

do the going

13:48

through the motions part anymore.

13:50

I just felt

13:52

like it was too important

13:54

to you know,

13:58

tell the truth to them as I saw

14:00

it about the way the world worked. Okay,

14:02

so that is how I was feeling. Right,

14:05

right. And that, you know, led

14:07

me be one of those really sort of

14:10

probably obnoxious people that's like constantly

14:12

talking to their kids and constantly

14:14

narrating everything. And I really seeking

14:17

to have everything I said be the truth,

14:21

or at least what what I was thinking in

14:23

my head, like that there would be no distance

14:25

between those two things. And so the

14:28

moment of deciding

14:32

to raise them atheist, which wasn't even

14:35

wasn't even exactly decision was we were

14:37

sitting down and reading

14:41

a book of Greek myths. You

14:43

know, we were writing this book of Greek myths. And

14:47

one of the boys I only had two kids at

14:49

the time or the little one wasn't up to reading.

14:51

I can't remember how old she was. wanted

14:55

to know what a myth was didn't know what a myth

14:57

was. So I just said, well,

15:00

a myth is a story that people tell

15:03

themselves about the way the world works is

15:05

how they try to understand how the world

15:08

works. But it's a made up story. And

15:12

it's just, and they said, Oh,

15:14

yes, they said, well, so they

15:16

don't believe it anymore. And I

15:18

said, well, if

15:21

they don't believe it, they call it a myth.

15:23

If they do still believe it, we call it

15:25

religion. And that's, that's like

15:27

the stories about Moses, that

15:30

we hear it pass over. That's like

15:32

the stories about Christmas and Jesus, those

15:34

are those are myths too. But we

15:36

call them religion because people still believe

15:38

in it. And, and that

15:41

is kind of how that that

15:43

conversation started. And then it

15:48

didn't stop, it's still going. Yeah.

15:50

One of the things I really appreciate

15:52

is that you have this automatic translation

15:54

device, that you have

15:56

these complex ideas and beliefs that

15:58

you're able to to transmit

16:01

to your kids throughout the

16:03

narrative. And

16:05

I, for some reason, I lacked

16:08

that special skill. When

16:10

my kids asked me a question, I would go

16:12

off into, well, the eschatological theory of blah, blah,

16:14

blah, you know, it's like, and they're three, and

16:16

they're like, what? Okay.

16:20

I mean, you're not gonna

16:22

get it right, necessarily. You're

16:24

not an expert in what they can

16:27

understand at what age anyway. I

16:29

think that, to me, the

16:31

basic thing was not lying to

16:34

them. So even if I

16:36

didn't quite get it right, even if I thought, oh,

16:38

they probably didn't need to know that much about sex,

16:40

or, oh, they, you know, oh,

16:43

they got bored, you know, and walked

16:46

away. It was, to me, baseline, I

16:48

wasn't lying, and I wasn't avoiding the

16:50

question. Those two things were like, you

16:53

know, because it's my job to be

16:55

that resource. And I think

16:58

to model the idea that

17:00

you can, that

17:02

you can not know for sure things, and

17:04

that's okay, and that

17:06

you can talk through them with people that you

17:08

trust, and, you know, all that stuff was part

17:11

of what I was trying to be, the

17:15

kind of relationship I was trying to have, and

17:17

what I was trying to model.

17:20

And the modeling part is how come

17:23

I ended up telling

17:25

more than just my children

17:28

that I believe that God

17:30

was a human invention. You know, that's

17:32

how, that's what made me take the little steps

17:34

out into like, okay, I

17:37

can't just be honest with them. I

17:40

have to be honest more

17:43

generally in life. So

17:45

that's how I stopped pretending to believe. Before

17:52

we move on, I wanted to tell you about something else

17:55

that's important, money, specifically

17:59

your money. In all

18:01

seriousness, I wanted to tell you about

18:03

my advisor and my friend, George Maza.

18:06

George runs Maza Wealth Management.

18:09

And with George, it's not just about

18:11

money. It's about helping us manage our

18:14

present and plan for our future. And

18:16

unlike a lot of other firms out there, George and I actually

18:18

have a relationship. He knows me. He knows my family. And I

18:21

know his wonderful family. I

18:24

also know his firm and the incredible team he's

18:26

put together from his chief investment officer to some

18:28

of the other great people in his office. Like

18:30

Jessica, they're head of operations that are always there

18:32

to help me and with all aspects

18:34

of our portfolio. You see, the thing

18:36

is, I got a lot going on. I guess

18:39

we all got a lot going on, and I don't

18:41

have the time to watch our investments all day every

18:43

day. And even if I did,

18:45

I don't have the experience and expertise

18:47

that George's team collectively has. So we

18:49

get the entire Maza Wealth Management team,

18:52

all their expertise and all their integrity. And

18:55

again, it's based on George knowing me personally, knowing

18:57

my goals, and even the kind of risk that's

18:59

appropriate for me to take, which by the way

19:01

could change up from one season to the next.

19:04

And they're on top of all of that. So

19:07

if you want George Maza and

19:09

Maza Wealth Management to be on

19:11

your team, just visit their website,

19:13

mazawealth.com. That's

19:15

M-E-Z-A, wealth.com, www.mazawealth.com.

19:20

And that will also be in our show notes, so

19:22

you can check that. And now, back to our

19:24

show. So

19:29

you describe certain times,

19:32

rites of passage in particular, where

19:34

it put you very much at odds

19:37

with certain family members, in particular, Father-in-law,

19:39

who from what I understand, is he

19:41

still with us? Yes. Yeah,

19:44

so attends an orthodox synagogue, like I grew

19:46

up in, and

19:49

especially around the boy's bris, the

19:51

time for bris, or the oldest,

19:53

and then the oldest when

19:55

it was time for Bar Mitzvah. separation,

20:01

a declaration of your separation in a

20:03

way, a declaration of this is our

20:05

family, this is what we're doing. And

20:09

it was hard because it ran

20:12

against very fundamental

20:15

moorings of what your father-in-law

20:18

is all about, his

20:20

very meaning of life and family.

20:23

So I was wondering if you've, if

20:25

your kids, my kids

20:27

certainly have approached me because my oldest

20:30

is 23, the middle one

20:32

is about to be 21 and the youngest is 19. So

20:35

we've gotten to that point where our kids have

20:38

brought to us ideas, convictions,

20:40

decisions that were like, whoa,

20:42

oh my, like this is

20:44

known. So

20:47

I was curious if, you know, if your kids have

20:49

come to you and like, hey, I believe in God, I'm

20:51

going to this church or if there's been anything like

20:53

that that's really shaking you that way. Not

20:57

yet. Nope.

21:02

You know, I would be obviously, I would be surprised,

21:06

but I would also be

21:08

surprised because we

21:11

do all communicate pretty well

21:14

and pretty constantly. I

21:17

would be surprised not to have any inkling. I

21:19

mean, I suppose they might hide it from

21:22

me because obviously they might know that it

21:27

would be, let's just

21:30

say an object of interest

21:34

for me. But, you know, I wouldn't

21:36

be, I feel

21:38

like, and I

21:40

hope I didn't flip up very

21:42

often in the book, but I

21:44

feel like I'm not very judgmental

21:46

about people's need for

21:48

comfort, people's need

21:51

for structures in their lives. You

21:54

know, I completely understand. I feel like

21:56

I do and I hope that I

21:58

expressed a real. compassion for

22:01

the religious impulse. So

22:03

I would hope that they would know that

22:05

I wouldn't scoff

22:10

at anything they brought

22:12

to me like that, because I feel

22:14

like I understand where that desire comes

22:17

from. But not so far.

22:22

So I have a very unscientific

22:24

theory, very early stages

22:26

of this theory, because we haven't talked about

22:29

this much. My theory, though, is that because

22:31

the basic currency of your relationship with your

22:33

kids is honesty, that

22:35

that's why, number one,

22:37

you might not think it's

22:40

hard to imagine that they bring something to you

22:43

that would be met with such surprise

22:45

or even outrage. Yeah, because there is

22:47

an open transparency to the relationship. There

22:51

is. But, you know, there's I'm not going to

22:53

say that it's there's nothing I don't keep

22:56

from them for whatever reason. And I'm

22:58

sure the same is true

23:01

the other way. And I wouldn't, you

23:03

know, want them to feel like they

23:06

couldn't have a private life, for example,

23:08

or something like that. I

23:10

guess I want to.

23:12

And I

23:15

hope and I believe that we

23:17

established over the years a

23:19

sense that, you know, that I love

23:22

them no matter what and that I

23:25

was open to talking about anything.

23:29

My my love is contingent upon them doing

23:31

everything that meets my approval. They

23:34

know that. That's how I raised my

23:36

kids. I will say this. I will

23:38

say this. They also know that

23:41

I'm a highly critical judgmental person,

23:43

you know, in terms of certain

23:45

things that I'm like, I wasn't

23:47

great about, you know, praising everything

23:49

that they did. I've raised the effort,

23:51

but not necessarily the output or whatever.

23:53

I wasn't that kind of apparent. But

23:57

I feel like they. Maybe

24:00

I will, you know, you'll have to interview them.

24:03

But I feel like they're that that

24:07

we could separate those things, partly because they

24:10

are all three, all artists in some way.

24:12

So they have, you know, that I

24:15

think there's this in

24:17

addition to the honesty thing, there is this

24:19

respect for one another as

24:21

artists and as you

24:25

know, sort of the ability to separate who

24:28

you are from what you're producing. And,

24:30

you know, we can take a step back from that and

24:32

talk about if it's working

24:34

or not and all that stuff. So we also have this

24:37

separate creative relationship, which is

24:39

really great. Which. Yeah. So I'm thinking

24:41

now that when I when I do

24:44

find out, you know, that Jesse believes in God,

24:47

it'll be through a song. And I'll be

24:49

like, ha. That'd

24:52

be great. No, no, no. It's

24:54

just technically what's that, dude? So

24:59

I I

25:02

was curious if a

25:04

little bit of background, I became a

25:07

girl, Orthodox going to an

25:09

Orthodox synagogue, very observant. And

25:12

my dad, you know, the Davins

25:14

every day and, you know, goes to Chabad. And,

25:16

you know, so it's a major part of our

25:18

life. So in my late 20s, when I went

25:20

to them and said, you know, I'm

25:22

a Christian, it was kind of a big deal. I

25:27

noticed something when I was reading your book, because I it's

25:30

exactly the kind of book that my dad would have sent

25:32

to me. In

25:34

those early years. So

25:37

when he he still won't

25:39

own up to this, but my mother tells me that his

25:41

first reaction when I told him was he wanted to sit

25:43

chill for me. You

25:46

know, and he came around. So I

25:48

give him a lot of credit because he came around

25:50

to as strong as his conviction was about me becoming

25:52

a Christian. He he

25:54

valued his relationship with his son more

25:57

than those those deep convictions,

25:59

which. Yeah, it is awesome. But

26:02

you know, it doesn't mean that the conflict

26:05

went away. There was great conflict

26:07

for years. And

26:09

one of the – like he would send me these

26:11

books. I would send him books. And you know, one

26:13

of the treatises he sent me was, you take Jesus,

26:15

I'll take God. You know, like – and

26:17

so a lot of times what we would send each other

26:20

in terms of articles or books, I found myself at that

26:22

time – this is 2000, 2001, so we were a lot

26:24

younger – I

26:29

was reading it and arguing

26:32

with the text as I was reading it.

26:35

So I bring that up because your book is exactly

26:37

the kind of book my dad would have sent to

26:39

me to, hey, at least be an atheist. At least

26:41

that would be – I was going to ask you

26:43

if that would be a preferable direction for him.

26:48

Oh, after him. There's any

26:50

number of things. Non-theistic philosophical

26:53

traditions that he could have bought, Buddhism

26:55

or just any number of things,

26:57

or identity-oriented stuff. If I said

26:59

I was gay, I think that would have gone

27:01

over fine. Atheist makes logical

27:03

sense. He understands the

27:06

logical – the logical

27:09

leaps that we have to make in order to believe,

27:11

if you will. But

27:13

I bring all of that up, a little bit of

27:15

background, because I

27:18

wasn't arguing with your text. I

27:20

was like, oh, that's interesting. Huh.

27:23

I want to know more now. So it partly

27:25

seems to him – You're

27:28

saying – okay. So you're

27:30

saying it wasn't something that – I

27:33

don't know – had your back up in any way. It was

27:36

more – you felt invited to the

27:38

discussion more than – Yeah.

27:41

I mean, there's obviously things where

27:43

I find myself disagreeing and

27:46

wanting to say, hey, I'm

27:49

a Christian dude, and that's

27:51

not quite what I think. Can I offer – Sure.

27:54

I'm mischaracterizing something that you – Yeah, there are some of

27:56

those. But it wasn't like, oh, she has it all wrong,

27:58

and you need to think that – like, it's

28:01

partly my own, maybe it's my own, you know,

28:03

53, I'm almost 53 now. So that

28:06

has something to do with it. But I think a lot

28:08

of it has to do with the way that you wrote

28:10

in a winsome, you wrote in

28:13

a winsome enough way to make it

28:15

approachable for someone who

28:17

believes differently than you do. I was

28:20

wondering, though, it

28:22

seems like you spoke to a lot of folks

28:25

who are religious about God, were there

28:27

any types of religions

28:30

or people have a certain tradition that

28:32

you had a lot less interest in

28:34

talking or wanted to avoid even? I

28:42

mean, I think I spoke

28:44

to people about God, primarily

28:47

that I

28:51

didn't know which way they

28:53

believed, you know, I don't, I

28:57

did not approach, let's

29:01

say, there's some

29:04

ultra Orthodox Jews around

29:07

here, and they came to the

29:09

farm once to buy some chickens.

29:11

And I mean, I there's certainly

29:13

a way in which I felt

29:15

too, like culturally

29:18

different to even

29:21

also these people are not part of

29:23

my life. I mean, I think one thing is that

29:25

I didn't go out, you know, you know, out into

29:27

the world to start to say, Hey, by

29:32

the way, I don't believe in God, or Hey,

29:34

by the way, you know, this is a beautiful

29:36

thing that people have created, and not a thing

29:38

that exists outside of whatever. Yeah, I didn't go

29:40

out to do that. It was more I made

29:43

it kind of internal

29:46

mission when it came

29:48

up not to shy away from saying

29:50

what was true. And so, so

29:52

it was really only people that I

29:55

knew anyway, or was in conversation

29:58

with anyway. And

30:00

it was it was really a very

30:03

undramatic process of

30:07

my wanting people

30:11

to like me and therefore, and

30:14

therefore being tempted to just

30:17

not say what

30:19

was true and then pushing myself

30:21

a little bit more to be

30:24

honest to the extent that I

30:28

really engage with some theological questions

30:30

in the book, I feel like

30:32

that's from this is

30:34

so revealing. I feel like that's from reading. Right.

30:37

Do you know what I mean? Like I'm

30:39

engaging with C.S. Lewis or something like that. Yeah.

30:41

Like I'm not afraid to engage with C.S. Lewis

30:43

because he's not right there in front of me.

30:45

Yeah. So in terms of

30:51

the more the sort

30:53

of deeper discussions about these things, I think in

30:55

the book they, you

30:58

know, and maybe this is a failing, they are

31:00

less, they're

31:03

less with real people. Well, no, C.S.

31:05

Lewis is a real person, but they're

31:07

less with like personal discussion and more

31:09

with like I'm engaging in these arguments

31:14

with writers. I think

31:16

that type of exercise is a really

31:18

healthy exercise, you know, to, to,

31:20

I'll say it in like the word I'm

31:22

thinking of is in an academic way. It's

31:26

really good that we've been doing this

31:28

for a few thousand years, like having

31:30

conversations across generations with other people who

31:33

think about this stuff seriously and engage

31:35

with other people who think about this

31:37

stuff seriously. So I love the fact

31:40

that you dove into C.S. Lewis and

31:42

some other writers and thinkers and engaged

31:44

with them. That's a, it's an important

31:46

exercise. That

31:49

actually, so I was wondering,

31:51

you, you grew up at your dad is

31:53

a Shakespeare professor. Your

31:56

mom, I don't know exactly what she, but I

31:58

get that she's really into grammar. That

32:02

is absolutely true. My

32:06

mom, for

32:09

a little while, well, she's

32:13

an amazing woman. She's

32:16

highly educated and

32:19

then stay-at-home mom for a while. And

32:21

then she was

32:23

a travel agent for a while. And then she worked in the international

32:26

programs at the university where

32:28

my father worked. And

32:32

so she was an administrator. She's

32:35

one of those people with skills that

32:38

go far beyond and deeper than what

32:40

the work experience

32:46

lines in the resume would be. And

32:49

so grammar and proofreading, yeah, she is

32:51

just an ace. That's great. She

32:53

is an ace. And after the

32:55

whole experience, and she was

32:57

my final

33:00

go-to on this book, I sent

33:02

her a little

33:05

necklace with a fine-tooth

33:07

comb as

33:11

a little charm because, yeah, she's

33:13

great. So anyway, yes, my

33:16

dad's a Shakespeare professor. There were books everywhere.

33:18

Books everywhere. Yeah. So I would imagine

33:21

that was a pretty fertile,

33:23

it was fertile ground, fertile intellectual ground

33:25

for you to think about big ideas

33:28

at a relatively young age. So

33:30

I was curious at what point, first

33:33

of all, what does it mean to be

33:35

an atheist? Seems like an obvious question,

33:37

but it's really not. As you talk about it, I'm like, oh, I

33:39

didn't think of it that way. And then also,

33:42

could you tell us how you arrived

33:44

at the conclusion that you're in fact

33:46

an atheist? Sure.

33:50

I, so an atheist

33:55

believes that God is a human invention.

34:00

sort of preferred way of saying it because I feel

34:03

like to say I don't believe in God is

34:05

an oversimplification in a way. Like

34:08

God is just such an amazing

34:10

character. And such a

34:13

useful, useful character and such

34:15

a powerful character. So to

34:17

say it doesn't exist isn't

34:19

quite right. But I believe

34:22

that God is a

34:24

human invention. So and

34:26

sometimes they say I don't believe

34:28

there's a supernatural being in charge

34:31

of the universe. That's another way

34:33

that I say it. Yeah.

34:36

And so both of those neither

34:38

of those things, conclusions, did I

34:40

arrive at intellectually,

34:43

okay, I believe that

34:45

I just never thought of God

34:47

in any other way than

34:50

as a literary

34:52

character or a legend like

34:55

a cultural legend or

34:57

something like that. That could

34:59

well, I mean, it couldn't be because I

35:01

was raised in in books

35:03

and stories and plays

35:06

and you know,

35:09

where where Hamlet was featured

35:12

large in my imagination, you know,

35:15

about the same. Yeah. Or, you

35:17

know, so it

35:19

could certainly be that's

35:21

part of it. My head was always in books.

35:24

And it just seemed like the same kind

35:26

of thing. You know, you read anything in

35:28

the Old Testament and you're like, wow, this

35:31

character is, is, you know,

35:33

crazy. Yeah, yeah. Or, you know, you

35:41

even you just I just read the

35:43

Ten Commandments with this real like sense

35:46

of this incredible like character

35:49

of who

35:51

insists that he's going to be worshipped and he's

35:53

going to be worshipped in the correct way. And

35:55

if you don't worship him in the correct way,

35:58

then you know what happened to the Egyptians. going

36:00

to happen to you. And I mean, that's how that's

36:02

how it all sounds to me. So

36:05

I don't remember ever sitting

36:08

there and praying either out loud

36:10

or when I was supposed to

36:12

pray silently or anything like that,

36:15

and actually thinking that it it

36:17

did anything. I would

36:21

not have called myself an atheist, I wouldn't,

36:24

you know, I don't

36:27

know, I guess I didn't really

36:29

probably put the word

36:31

to it until I don't

36:33

know, maybe high school, maybe college,

36:35

I just didn't. I was

36:39

Jewish, I was a Jew, right? And

36:41

you could be an atheist and a Jew at the same time.

36:43

Yeah, well, I know that now. I

36:46

know that now. But I didn't.

36:50

I didn't think of it. I guess I was afflicted

36:52

by the same thing that I think a lot of

36:54

other people are afflicted by, which is the sense that

36:57

atheism is like a

37:00

scary thing, or like, but

37:03

you have to be sort of an aggressive person

37:05

to be an atheist, or you have to be

37:09

angry or argumentative.

37:11

Yeah, you know, none of none

37:14

of which I am. And all the time.

37:16

So, you know, to

37:21

feel like that label fit me, it took

37:23

me a while. It took me a while.

37:25

You know, what's funny is I engage with

37:27

either the writing of or, you

37:30

know, just in conversation with others

37:33

who are atheists, I find I

37:35

find the writing of guys like Dawkins to be

37:37

a lot less persuasive and thought

37:39

provoking, just because a lot of it is

37:42

just, I don't know,

37:44

obnoxious isn't the right word, but maybe aggressive.

37:47

And I can understand why he might be aggressive

37:49

in the environment that he's

37:51

grown up in. And, you know,

37:55

hitchens, I always found funny

37:59

and thought provoking. But when I go back

38:01

to the stuff that

38:04

Bertrand Russell, especially in

38:06

his conversations with other guys like G.K.

38:08

Chesterton, that's the stuff that I find

38:10

most persuasive. And now in conversation, somebody

38:13

who's become a dear friend, a guy,

38:15

John Roush, I think I shared one of the

38:17

episodes, one of the conversations I had with him.

38:21

His stuff, like it

38:23

really – some of the stuff

38:25

that we talk about, I have to go

38:27

and process for days

38:29

and weeks. He's coming

38:31

out with this book, and it's a framework that we've

38:33

been talking about for a couple of years now. The

38:37

four M's we refer to it. I don't know if that's how he's

38:39

going to refer to it in the book. But

38:42

basically he broke

38:45

down the atheists and theists. There

38:48

are four M's, and I'm going to forget them off the top of

38:50

my head, but morality,

38:52

mortality, murder. I

38:55

knew I forget the fourth M. But there's a

38:57

couple that theists – it's

39:01

hard for atheists to reckon with, and

39:04

there's a couple of them that theists

39:06

can't reckon with, that atheists – I

39:08

love those conversations. You

39:11

could listen. At the end of the day,

39:13

I want to believe what's true, and if

39:15

I'm wrong, I want to know it. Right.

39:20

Sorry. No,

39:22

that's okay. I

39:25

think what's missing from some of

39:27

the work of the new atheists,

39:31

for me anyway, is that – Magic. That was

39:33

the one. Murder and magic. That's

39:36

good. And I

39:38

will say not all, because I do

39:41

quote Daniel Dennett, and I think Dennett

39:43

always had a more humane kind of

39:45

approach, and still does. And

39:47

he currently gets excluded from references

39:50

to new atheists, because he's just a

39:52

really nice

39:55

guy who doesn't have that same,

39:59

I don't know, convenience. bad is side.

40:02

But I think what's

40:04

missing is, is just sort of a compassion

40:09

for how people need to

40:11

get along in life and how people live their

40:13

lives. And it's just sort of a sense of,

40:15

I don't know, sympathy

40:19

and charity and all those things. You

40:21

know, I think it's, it's, it's, it's

40:26

not just that it's only a rational

40:28

argument. It's, it's

40:32

really not not granting any,

40:34

any leeway to anybody's, you

40:37

know, human need. And I

40:40

think that that it's useful

40:42

for what it is, I enjoyed those books.

40:45

But it's not gonna,

40:48

it's not gonna, to me, it's

40:51

not gonna really bring

40:54

in people who are

40:56

struggling, sort of in their daily life

40:58

to figure out how to live meaningfully.

41:00

And, you know, how to how to

41:02

proceed with relationships they

41:04

already have and kids they're raising and all

41:06

that stuff. I mean, it just doesn't kind

41:09

of speak to that. Yeah, whatever reason. The

41:12

places where I found myself diverging

41:14

from you is where we as

41:18

individuals fit in with a larger

41:21

story. And it gives

41:23

us a sense of orientation,

41:25

if you will, it gives us like how,

41:27

how, where, yeah, where we so there was

41:30

a quote, kind of early on in the

41:32

book, you started a chapter with

41:34

a quote from Catherine Hepburn, she said, I

41:36

am an atheist. And that's it. I believe

41:38

there's nothing we can know, except that we

41:41

should be kind to each other and do

41:43

what we can for other people. So

41:45

we should be kind to each other and do what we can for

41:47

other people. And that's kind of what you're saying, what

41:50

you said in numerous ways throughout the book.

41:53

And my question is, but how do we know

41:55

that? Like, and if we

41:57

know that, then the question

41:59

is, Why should

42:03

we be kind to each other? And it's not

42:05

like I'm not one of those like, oh, well,

42:07

I got to be kind because there's this –

42:10

the God of the Old Testament is going to strike me down

42:12

and I'm going to burn in hell. That's

42:15

not where I'm coming from. I'm

42:18

wondering what

42:20

is the rationale? Where

42:23

does that impulse to be good to each other

42:25

come from? Do

42:27

you understand what I'm asking? Yeah, I

42:29

hear what you're saying. I mean, I definitely think

42:32

that there's a sort of fundamental thing

42:34

that humans do where they kind

42:38

of associate – extrapolate

42:42

from their own thoughts and feelings to

42:44

other people. And

42:46

then they're

42:52

sort of morality springs from this

42:54

sense that they

42:56

wouldn't want to do to other people what they wouldn't want done to them. I

42:58

mean, it's a simple golden rule kind of a thing. I

43:01

love that part where you invented a new version

43:03

of it and you're like, okay, fine. That's the

43:05

golden rule. It's

43:08

everywhere. It's everywhere. There must be

43:10

something that's inside

43:13

of us because every single

43:15

religion, every single culture has

43:17

this concept, which I don't

43:20

know. I'm not a

43:22

– I feel like there's a –

43:25

there's neurobiology involved. I feel

43:27

like there's subject matter involved

43:29

that I don't have a

43:31

grasp of. But

43:33

I guess I don't feel like I

43:35

need to know that. That's

43:37

a – yeah,

43:40

I don't feel like I need to

43:42

understand where

43:45

my sense of

43:49

right and wrong comes from exactly. I

43:51

tease it out some, and I talk about how

43:54

you can talk about it with your kids. But

43:56

I guess I don't – I

44:00

feel like just because I don't quite

44:02

understand it, doesn't

44:06

mean that it's not true,

44:08

that it's there. I mean, I

44:11

think people do generally have a sense

44:14

of right and wrong, you know, that

44:16

goes beyond what might

44:18

be caught in a holy book. And

44:24

then that's part of that

44:26

chapter about morality. Oh,

44:31

yes, there's a scene in where

44:34

we're having Seder and

44:36

my in-laws and my kids are just appalled

44:38

at how many babies die in

44:40

the Exodus story. They

44:43

just like them, it's a fair

44:45

complaint. It's just gruesome, you know? And

44:48

they have this feeling

44:50

that it is wrong, even though, you

44:52

know, we didn't take them to synagogue.

44:54

We didn't, you know, I

44:57

just think there's this natural

44:59

sense of

45:02

not that you don't want babies

45:04

to die. I don't know, you know, that

45:06

that's not fair. But I can't

45:08

explain it to you. I

45:12

would be interested to go down that

45:14

road sometime. But I really think one

45:16

of my, one

45:20

of the projects I have in this book is

45:22

kind of like lowering the

45:24

bar to entry for

45:27

being an atheist. And

45:30

I think one of the things that

45:33

I really believe is that, you

45:36

know, you don't have to know, you

45:39

don't have to be able to explain the big bang. You

45:42

don't have to know, you know, why

45:44

humans are around. You

45:49

don't have to know what your purpose is to

45:53

look around and come to the conclusion

45:56

that this one

45:58

particular story about the Bible, those things

46:00

is just a story that someone made up,

46:03

you know. So

46:05

I'm not sure if

46:07

that answers your question or not, but that's

46:09

how I feel. I don't feel like I

46:11

need to know why I think, you know, baby

46:17

killing is wrong or that or why I

46:19

think it's important to be kind to other

46:21

people. Part of it is it

46:25

feels good to be kind to

46:28

other people, you know, and it

46:30

feels, it

46:34

feels, yeah,

46:40

I want to be part of a community. I want

46:42

to be loved and welcomed

46:44

and valued and being good to

46:46

other people is part of that

46:48

too, is, you know, part of

46:51

building that community. So there's a

46:53

very kind of, I

46:57

don't know, pragmatic side to it. I

47:00

think when people say, oh, if you don't

47:02

believe in that someone's

47:04

watching you, if you don't believe in

47:06

this or that, this person's or that

47:09

person's moral code, then what's going to keep

47:11

you from, you know, going on a rampage

47:13

or cheating on your taxes

47:17

or any of those things. I

47:19

mean, nothing keeps you from doing those things

47:21

anyway. Right. Right. I mean, it's not like

47:24

very few people actually think they're going to

47:26

be struck down if

47:28

they do those things.

47:32

So even for

47:34

believers, even for believers, it is,

47:36

I believe, more a sense of,

47:38

you know, wanting to be in

47:41

a society and take care

47:43

of your society than anything

47:46

else. Yeah, that tracks. I

47:48

think that I've read

47:50

some evolutionary biologists who

47:53

say that it's part of a survival gene

47:55

in us and one

47:58

that's evolved in such a way, where we're

48:00

driven to, I don't know, I

48:03

even know how to say the word, propitiation of the

48:05

species, if you will, that some

48:07

of those things are connected to

48:09

that. It kind of makes sense,

48:11

but somewhere around awe, a

48:16

sense of awe, that's where

48:19

that argument starts to

48:22

lose me, like on a

48:24

walk, just

48:26

seeing a sunset and just being stopped in my, or

48:28

the first time I was at Prado and I walked

48:30

into the room where Las

48:33

Meninas is, and I was just,

48:36

I mean, I don't know what

48:38

that is. That's not merely an

48:40

animalistic response. Why

48:44

isn't it? Why isn't that

48:46

just a response to duty and the now,

48:48

and that's just, because my

48:51

dog's looking at me and being like, whoa, that's so

48:53

cool, dude. Yeah, but

48:55

you're different from your dogs in a lot of ways.

48:58

Yeah, no, but that sense of awe in

49:00

wonder, I don't know. I don't think

49:02

you have to believe in God to have the sense

49:04

of awe and wonder. I mean, that is like, that

49:07

is absolutely, I feel

49:09

like a love of art

49:13

and amazement that

49:17

somebody can write a song. That

49:22

feeling when you hold a newborn baby,

49:24

I mean, all of that stuff, I

49:26

don't know why that has to come

49:28

from sort of the supernatural world and

49:31

why it's not just in

49:33

us as people. I mean, I am

49:35

so grateful it's in us as people.

49:41

I think that's another thing that people think that

49:44

atheists don't have is this appreciation

49:46

for these sort of

49:49

magical moments in life, but

49:51

I don't agree with that. I love those moments.

49:55

I'm looking at my notes and I'm like, so

49:58

I have 12 pages. and

50:00

we're on page two. We're like at the

50:02

top of page two right now. I

50:06

need to have you back or we need to like.

50:08

I would love that. There's so much to

50:11

talk about. There's so much to talk

50:13

about. All right, so there's,

50:17

okay. So one of

50:19

the longer quotes that where

50:21

I did find I

50:23

was a little bit

50:25

more at odds with you or maybe there was a

50:28

clear distinction. You

50:30

say, if I'm being honest though, I do expect

50:32

to have an impact on the world. I

50:35

expect something about me to reverberate, perhaps, and

50:37

I love all this, perhaps I will live

50:39

on in one of my children's tastes for

50:41

stationary or for salt in a

50:43

friend's slightly greater confidence in herself in

50:46

the one recipe of all recipes that a

50:48

child of mine ends up using, which may

50:51

or not may not be the one recipe

50:53

of my mother's that I still use, or

50:55

maybe in the fact that they skew all

50:57

my recipes believing like me that another might

51:00

be better. So it's better to keep

51:02

looking. So that's what I

51:04

was referring to before that there's something

51:06

about being placing

51:08

oneself in a narrative, in

51:11

a longer narrative that transcends

51:13

generations and that

51:15

you're continuing that narrative. There's

51:19

one of the theologians that it

51:22

started to, things started to fall in place for me,

51:24

this guy named Kevin Van Hooser said,

51:26

the Bible at the end of the day is a

51:28

story that's still being written and we're in it. But

51:33

for me, even separate from my religious convictions

51:35

or theological convictions is a better way to

51:38

put it, is that

51:41

my Bormitsch invitation started with, as my

51:43

father and grandfather before me and the

51:45

girls that we were, as my grandmother

51:47

and grandmother. So that's

51:51

what I think a lot of these rituals, these

51:53

rites of passage do for me. And

51:56

I wonder if there's a way to be a

51:58

Nathan or be, you know, the

52:00

grandson of Creval's and Mertix

52:03

and Kleinfeld's, so that

52:05

we can continue that story, even

52:07

if we're, while still being

52:09

true to our beliefs, or

52:13

your philosophical convictions.

52:15

Does that make sense? It

52:18

makes so much sense. And

52:20

it makes me think, like

52:23

to what extent, to

52:28

what extent is it important to have a name for

52:36

the thing that connects us? I mean, part

52:38

of it is just, okay, so my grandfather

52:41

was a Jew, his grandfather was a Jew.

52:47

Is that really what matters? I mean,

52:49

is that really, is

52:53

that really the connection between

52:56

us? I don't know. So

52:59

let's say I take that out, and

53:01

I try to think about what it

53:03

is of my grandfathers that

53:06

I still have, or

53:09

that I'm, what am I continuing that my grandfather

53:13

was an obstetrician, one

53:16

of them was an obstetrician in Montgomery,

53:19

Alabama, and he was a progressive

53:22

Jew, and a

53:24

voracious reader, and he loved to cook.

53:29

He got his law degree just for fun at

53:31

some point. You know, he's sort of like,

53:33

and yeah, just, he's like, I don't

53:35

know, he had a lot of lawyer friends, and they

53:37

would always give him a hard time. So at some

53:40

point, he decided, well, I can do this too. Yeah.

53:43

I remember, I mean, so, you know, I

53:47

feel like there's a lot that

53:50

connects me to him that doesn't have

53:52

to go through a synagogue

53:55

or any particular ritual, I

53:58

guess. But

54:02

I take your point that to fashion

54:04

it into a story, it helps

54:07

to have a

54:09

name for it, an identity of sort of people.

54:12

But that's just one kind of story. I think

54:14

there are other kinds of stories. And

54:17

I, part of me feels like I wouldn't, I

54:21

don't know, I'm just working this out as I'm

54:23

saying it to you. I'm

54:26

not sure that

54:29

I would, I'm

54:32

not sure how much I would care about the

54:34

things that connected me to my grandfather if I

54:36

didn't know him. That's

54:39

interesting. I'm not sure.

54:41

I mean, I have to think about it. How much

54:43

does that matter? Obviously,

54:46

those people, you know,

54:48

all my ancestors, the decisions they

54:50

made, the way they

54:54

live, the children

54:56

they had had an effect on me,

54:58

you know, but

55:02

to what extent does

55:04

that matter in

55:08

some larger way? I don't know. I don't

55:10

know. I would have to think

55:12

about it. I'm really genuine in

55:16

that part of the book. So this is a part of the book. This

55:19

is in the second part of the book where I

55:21

really try to wrestle with all the things that

55:27

religious people have and

55:31

ask, do they need them?

55:33

Do I need them? How do I get them

55:35

as an atheist? This is the part of the

55:37

book about death is the

55:40

one that you're talking about. And

55:42

I really genuinely, I'm really genuine

55:44

here. I really don't

55:51

mind if I'm not

55:53

remembered. I really

55:55

don't mind, you know, if I

55:59

am not sort of... of consciously part

56:01

of some future generations

56:03

story. Oh,

56:06

boy. It's

56:08

okay with me. I won't

56:11

be around. Yeah, but

56:13

I know a lot of people feel very differently and

56:16

take a lot of care with their legacies. And I just

56:18

don't have that I just have much more of a feeling

56:20

of, you know, I want to have good

56:23

relationships. Now I want to do. I

56:26

want to have it. I want to have it. I

56:29

want to have a good day. You

56:31

know, I want to have, you

56:34

know, and maybe having good days

56:36

involves a certain amount of planning

56:38

or involves a certain

56:41

amount of

56:44

professional success or whatever it is,

56:46

you know, it's not that I'm

56:48

only thinking about the this

56:51

moment in this moment, but when

56:54

I'm gone, I'm gone. Yeah, it's fine. You

56:57

know, and I hope that I do, you

56:59

know, on balance, I make

57:01

a, you know, I'm positive for the

57:03

people around me until until that point.

57:06

Yeah, no, I will confess

57:08

that a lot

57:11

of what propelled me

57:13

into existential inquiry

57:17

is the hate of death, the

57:20

hate of the idea of death. Right?

57:22

So what can I do to

57:25

mitigate its effects, you

57:28

know, and to craft a

57:30

life to mitigate the end

57:32

of this individual life, you

57:34

know, yeah, but as I

57:36

get older, I should

57:38

go back and rethink what

57:41

started a lot of those inquiries because it's

57:44

not that I'm okay with death, but it's like, that's

57:46

not motivating factor at this stage, you

57:49

know, so I should Yeah, I

57:51

should go back to some of those early

57:53

questions and kind of revisit them. I might

57:55

come out the other side with some different

57:58

conclusions. It's interesting. thing. You

58:03

know, again, I am curious how much

58:05

of this stuff is kind

58:07

of like oddly just the way you're

58:10

built. Yeah. But

58:14

I will say that, yeah, my

58:16

own death is not a great

58:18

concern. I am,

58:22

especially the older my kids get and

58:24

the less I feel like they need

58:26

me that that helpful. But if

58:29

one of them died, I mean, it's

58:32

not like I'm not I don't, I

58:37

don't fear that kind of void.

58:40

But it would be a void in my life that

58:43

I would be fearing and I would be I know

58:45

they would be fine, they would be dead. So, you

58:48

know, I don't know that one

58:50

didn't hasn't motivated me.

58:55

In some ways, there's no there is

58:57

no way to motivate me to believe

58:59

something I don't believe though. So, you

59:02

know, I, I really enjoy

59:04

wrestling with these, these issues and

59:06

talking about it and trying to

59:08

find trying

59:11

to understand what it is in myself, then,

59:14

you know, that sort of machinery

59:16

that I use to deal

59:19

with this thing that every human has to

59:21

deal with, which is that they're going to die. So

59:24

I'm curious about it. I wrestle with it. I have fun with

59:26

it. Yeah, a

59:28

little bit. Yeah, I

59:31

do. But I, ultimately,

59:34

it's not like I could talk

59:37

myself into believing something that I,

59:39

I don't believe. I don't

59:42

think you have to talk to

59:44

yourself into. Do you feel like

59:46

that? Like, you had to, That's

59:48

interesting because there was one part in the book, I don't have

59:50

the quote in front of me where you do

59:52

put it that way, where it's like you have to talk

59:54

yourself into believing in God. Where is that? Can

1:00:03

people do that? Talk themselves into

1:00:05

believing in God? Oh,

1:00:08

here it is. If

1:00:10

mortality is why people want to believe in

1:00:12

God, morality is why

1:00:14

people think they should. And

1:00:19

I don't think that's quite right. It's

1:00:22

stated in a way that assumes the default

1:00:24

mindset or the reality

1:00:26

is that there's no God and that we have to

1:00:28

want to believe in God or feel that we should

1:00:30

believe in God. Right? Right.

1:00:33

I guess what I'm saying is, and I see

1:00:36

your, I totally see your point, but

1:00:38

more like people

1:00:43

like me, you know, people who

1:00:45

don't, aren't exactly believers, but they

1:00:47

have this sense that they're supposed

1:00:49

to, because that's

1:00:51

where, that's where, how else are

1:00:53

you going to get it right from wrong? Yeah. Yeah.

1:00:57

That's where morality comes from. Obviously that's where morality comes from.

1:00:59

This is, that's the beginning of the morality chapter. So

1:01:02

then I get to talk about, obviously

1:01:04

it's not where morality comes from, but,

1:01:06

but yeah, I, you're right. I mean,

1:01:09

that's, I'm

1:01:11

talking about those kind

1:01:13

of our two different groups of people, you know? Yeah.

1:01:17

Yeah. That would be more like the

1:01:19

people who just think it's

1:01:21

the right thing. Yeah. The thing that

1:01:23

they're supposed to believe. Yeah. Oh man. I,

1:01:26

my dad and I have had many of these conversations over the

1:01:28

course of 20, almost 25 years now. I'm

1:01:31

sure. Ralph talks about it as like being, having

1:01:33

a certain kind of vision and some people, he,

1:01:36

this is what he assigned to himself. It's

1:01:38

like, it's almost as if he's colorblind and

1:01:40

he doesn't see the whole color of God

1:01:42

thing, you know? So it's just not something

1:01:45

that he gets. And

1:01:47

it's his default posture, if you will.

1:01:50

So okay. So there's, oh, do

1:01:53

you meditate by any chance? No.

1:01:57

No. You were, there was one part where you were.

1:02:00

talking about yeah, trying

1:02:04

to pray. Yeah, yeah, many days I walk up

1:02:06

it down my driveway, one return trip is one

1:02:08

mile, about 20 minutes that I think,

1:02:10

oh, it's funny, we walk at about the same pace. Perfect

1:02:14

thinking pace, I just have to say, that's

1:02:16

my sprinting pace. Are you kidding me? So, but the

1:02:22

other thing you say, it's the first time

1:02:24

I tried it, I got to step one,

1:02:26

being present with not me, and then my

1:02:28

mind wandered, and I pulled it back. The

1:02:30

reason I thought that maybe meditating, because what

1:02:32

I've learned is the one of the practices

1:02:34

is what's called noting. It's like, oh, that's

1:02:36

a thought. Okay, that's, and then maybe you

1:02:38

say it's an unpleasant thought or a pleasant

1:02:40

thought, and you let the thought pass, and

1:02:42

then you just get back to the breathing

1:02:44

thing. And I was

1:02:47

reading, I'm reading up on like

1:02:50

the neuropsychology, the neuropsychological processes. For

1:02:53

me, it's, it's, it's

1:02:56

more powerful meditating is more powerful than

1:02:59

medication. Because

1:03:01

it literally changes the wiring in my brain.

1:03:03

I felt that over the last couple of

1:03:05

years. I really need to, I

1:03:07

need to do it. I need to do it. Let

1:03:09

me know if you want some rest. I've heard that so many people have

1:03:11

said that so many people have said that. And

1:03:14

listen, it's like I when I started it was it

1:03:16

was my friend Dawn, I don't know, we were already

1:03:18

recording, but my friend Dawn is the one who really

1:03:20

pointed me in the right direction. And

1:03:24

it literally it just started with like three minute,

1:03:27

even two minute guided meditations. And

1:03:30

I still do mostly guided meditation, somebody like Tara

1:03:32

Brock is great. She has a podcast, where

1:03:34

she does these 10 to 15 minute meditations

1:03:36

on there, or some of the apps, the

1:03:38

one I use is Headspace. But

1:03:41

it's like, it's changed. And it's, it's, I

1:03:43

was diagnosed as bipolar two.

1:03:45

I was

1:03:47

originally diagnosed. Anyway, that's a whole

1:03:49

other conversation. But it's, it's,

1:03:52

it's important for my brain

1:03:55

that I need to do this thing so

1:03:57

that it doesn't go into these unhealthy zones.

1:04:01

It's been pretty incredible. So

1:04:03

anyway, maybe that's for

1:04:05

episode three down the road that we could talk

1:04:07

about. But if you want some recommendations, I'm happy

1:04:09

to. I do want some recommendations.

1:04:11

I'll come back and tell you how if

1:04:14

it works. Okay, that'd be great. That'd

1:04:16

be great. So okay,

1:04:18

I do need to start to wind this down.

1:04:21

So I want to ask you my TP and

1:04:23

R question. And that is, what

1:04:25

do you think each of us can do

1:04:27

to be able to share space with have

1:04:30

better conversations with perhaps even

1:04:32

nurture relationships with people across these kinds of

1:04:34

differences, people who have different backgrounds than we

1:04:36

do or beliefs than we do who get

1:04:38

their news from different sources than we do?

1:04:41

How can we be better at talking politics

1:04:43

and religion without killing each other?

1:04:45

Or is it even possible? Well,

1:04:51

I think it's possible. But I confess

1:04:53

that I've done that more with religion

1:04:55

than with politics. And

1:04:59

I, I feel

1:05:01

like for me, the

1:05:07

the starting point is always a

1:05:10

little bit of a

1:05:14

leap. Like I'm willing

1:05:16

to take the sleep of being honest in

1:05:18

a way that people aren't normally

1:05:22

honest, and to kind

1:05:24

of assume that,

1:05:29

you know, what is in your

1:05:31

head isn't necessarily what's what I've

1:05:33

seen or what's come out. And

1:05:37

that, if I really want to

1:05:39

know how you think on a deeper level, I

1:05:41

have to show you my

1:05:44

willingness to show you what I think on

1:05:46

a deeper level. So I think that is

1:05:48

the sort of trusting

1:05:51

that people

1:05:53

are going to receive

1:05:57

that I

1:06:00

have felt that. I spent

1:06:02

30 years thinking, oh, I got to protect other

1:06:05

people or myself from

1:06:07

the truth about myself, protect these relationships by

1:06:09

being dishonest. And then

1:06:11

I realized, of course, that I was a little bit of a mess.

1:06:16

I was a little bit of a mess. I

1:06:18

was a little bit of a mess. I was

1:06:20

a little bit of a mess. I was a

1:06:22

little bit of a mess. I was a

1:06:25

little bit of a mess. I had a lot

1:06:27

of trouble taking them over due to getting busted.

1:06:29

So I continued to do more and more challenge them

1:06:31

as they did. And today we are all going

1:06:33

to attack these relationships by being dishonest, and

1:06:38

then I realized, of course, that the relationships were

1:06:40

so much better when I was honest. I'm,

1:06:43

you know, for me, in a way, politics gets almost

1:06:45

closer to my heart. I'm

1:06:52

trying to think if

1:06:58

I've really been

1:07:00

as forthcoming and honest. I mean, I grind

1:07:03

a calm for the Washington Post. People know

1:07:05

what I think. But,

1:07:08

you know, it's funny. I saw in your

1:07:10

notes that

1:07:13

you wanted to potentially talk about

1:07:15

October 7th, which I've

1:07:17

been to so many. I've

1:07:20

had so many talks since then, and nobody

1:07:22

asks about it, which is really interesting to

1:07:24

me. But in

1:07:26

a way, there

1:07:29

is a space,

1:07:37

sort of a node of

1:07:40

conflict that I

1:07:43

feel like I'm still not necessarily

1:07:45

honest about when I should be.

1:07:48

I mean, like, again,

1:07:50

preserving peace and quiet

1:07:53

in, you know, sort of family

1:07:56

discussions or, you know, You

1:08:00

know, here are like your your you might

1:08:03

be I mean, we haven't

1:08:05

talked about this at all. So I don't know where where,

1:08:09

where these issues fall in

1:08:11

your own life or sort

1:08:14

of social circle but for

1:08:17

me, as a progressive

1:08:19

person, and as a Jew,

1:08:22

there's definitely this, this

1:08:24

sense that to

1:08:29

keep the peace in in certain

1:08:31

situations, maybe I could, you

1:08:34

know, let my own beliefs

1:08:39

go unexpressed. And

1:08:41

so I see I, but

1:08:43

I think that that's a problem, you know, I feel

1:08:45

like I

1:08:50

feel like it

1:08:53

does a disservice, let's say to my

1:08:55

extended relatives to to sort of assume

1:08:57

they assume they believe a certain thing.

1:08:59

Assume that would be in conflict with

1:09:01

what I believe. Assume there's no common

1:09:03

ground, etc. and keep my mouth shut.

1:09:05

I feel like that's a disservice. And

1:09:07

it's an ongoing process for me to

1:09:12

to offer them the respect

1:09:15

of being honest about, you

1:09:17

know, what my politics are or what

1:09:19

my beliefs are in this particular political

1:09:21

moment. So, yeah,

1:09:24

so it's a work in progress. But,

1:09:26

but I think there's this, you know, do

1:09:30

you respect the other person enough trust

1:09:32

the other person enough to,

1:09:35

to share what your

1:09:37

what your actual feelings are

1:09:39

about a situation. So I don't know if that's going

1:09:41

to solve things. But

1:09:44

it feels

1:09:47

to me like you're on the right track, you're pointed in

1:09:49

the right direction. And you have

1:09:51

some breaks at your

1:09:54

disposal that you can press, you

1:09:57

know, and a sense of discernment as

1:09:59

to what you're doing. to win to press them. Sure.

1:10:01

So. Right. I

1:10:03

always tell people that who

1:10:06

ask what happened to my kids when they

1:10:09

were unleashed in school without a belief in

1:10:11

God or Santa or whatever it is. And

1:10:13

I'm like, yeah, I taught them that God

1:10:15

was a human invention. I also taught them

1:10:18

to be polite and to be a

1:10:20

kind and a people. You were just present

1:10:22

in the grocery store, right? Exactly. Exactly. Yes.

1:10:25

Yes. Other human beings. Other human

1:10:27

beings. Exactly. So

1:10:30

yes, I don't think the brakes are

1:10:32

necessarily wrong. But sometimes we break more

1:10:34

than we need to. And

1:10:36

I think that can impede progress.

1:10:42

I think it can impede

1:10:47

human understanding. Yeah. Yeah.

1:10:51

I don't know. Overly censoring

1:10:53

ourselves means that we're ceding

1:10:55

the ground to other voices

1:10:58

in the room. And

1:11:00

a lot of conversation in our various

1:11:03

spaces, our collective

1:11:06

village square, if you will, is dominated

1:11:08

by these extremists, these categorical, you must

1:11:10

be this way or that way or

1:11:12

your. So

1:11:15

do you have any questions for me? Well,

1:11:19

you have talked

1:11:21

about how your

1:11:23

dad reacted in terms of your

1:11:25

becoming a Christian. And I just

1:11:28

am curious about your mom. I

1:11:32

mean, as a mom, I'm like, see, where's

1:11:34

this invisible mom? What's going on? OK.

1:11:37

So Phyllis. So

1:11:40

I had a two hour complete. Yeah.

1:11:43

She's not listening. She's thoroughly unimpressed with me.

1:11:46

So I had this two hour

1:11:49

long conversation. We took a red

1:11:51

eye, flew in on Thanksgiving, got

1:11:54

there. Newark drove to the they

1:11:56

were still living in Jersey. And

1:11:58

I sat on the porch with my dad. for two hours and

1:12:01

had this conversation about why I became a Christian. And

1:12:03

then he, that was one

1:12:05

interaction. And, you know, the, that

1:12:08

was one thing. Um, and then at the end

1:12:10

of that talk, he said, okay, now you

1:12:12

got to go in and tell your mother. I

1:12:16

love it. I'm like, okay. So I just went in.

1:12:18

I wasn't, Phyllis and I don't have that kind of

1:12:20

relationship. So I was just going to roll out with

1:12:23

it, tell her. And I did. I said, mom, I

1:12:25

don't know how to say this any other way. So

1:12:27

I'm just going to say it. I'm a Christian now.

1:12:30

And she was like, she wasn't even looking

1:12:32

at me. She was typing on the computer. And,

1:12:34

um, it was almost as

1:12:36

if her, her fingers like floated off

1:12:38

the keyboard as she was

1:12:40

floating into the other room. And she was just

1:12:42

kind of dazed. And I, I followed her into

1:12:45

the other room. I'm like, mama, did

1:12:47

you hear me? I'm a, I'm

1:12:49

a Christian. And she said, I'm

1:12:52

sorry. I just never

1:12:54

thought I'd have a son who was, and

1:12:56

she didn't have the words. She goes, who

1:12:58

was walking with Jesus.

1:13:01

And then she starts yelling into the other

1:13:03

room. She starts yelling Yiddish into the other

1:13:05

room. Ronnie do has the son is a

1:13:07

born again Republican. And I'm like, I don't

1:13:09

know how she connected Chris. I mean, I

1:13:11

kind of do, but I'm like, I didn't

1:13:13

say her mom, you know,

1:13:16

oh, that would be terrible. Yeah.

1:13:18

That's awesome. So

1:13:23

yeah, my mom is, um, she is,

1:13:25

uh, I it's, it

1:13:27

makes it better for me to kind of

1:13:29

mythologize her a little bit, uh, because

1:13:31

then I can appreciate the humor in all

1:13:34

of, uh, you know, the, the legend

1:13:37

to fill this. Um, so

1:13:39

yeah, that's how she reacted. And

1:13:41

now did you have kids yet with us before?

1:13:44

Uh, so that was right about the

1:13:46

time. Yeah. Yeah. So, um,

1:13:48

Savannah was born in March of 2001.

1:13:50

So yeah. So at least it was

1:13:52

pregnant with Savannah. Yeah. Yeah.

1:13:55

So yeah. So a lot of this was

1:13:58

pressing in a way for. For

1:14:01

them, it didn't necessarily

1:14:03

have to, where we were

1:14:05

as a couple and as in planning

1:14:07

a family, it didn't

1:14:11

necessarily influence that evolution

1:14:14

for me as much

1:14:16

as you might think. But

1:14:19

for them, it became pressing

1:14:21

because they asked like, well,

1:14:24

what if it's a boy? What about the bris? You know, how

1:14:26

are you going to raise your kids? We

1:14:28

did ultimately, by the way, we

1:14:30

did ultimately, so our second and third

1:14:32

kids are boys and we

1:14:34

did decide to have the bris for both of the boys

1:14:37

and it was far enough along after this time, so

1:14:39

Jack was born in July of 2003 and in Emerson

1:14:42

February of 2005. So

1:14:46

we were far enough along in this conversation in

1:14:49

particular with my dad where I thought, listen, this

1:14:51

is not, it doesn't betray

1:14:53

my own theological beliefs and

1:14:56

it's a way for me to rebuild

1:14:58

this bridge and honor my father and

1:15:00

honor my family in this particular way.

1:15:02

So that's the conclusion that we came

1:15:04

to. That's so interesting.

1:15:06

Yeah. The

1:15:09

conversations around that and the bar

1:15:11

mitzvah, there was a different tone

1:15:13

to it and I think I

1:15:15

might have reacted differently if

1:15:17

my, because my dad has the proclivity too,

1:15:19

to like sort of want to control things

1:15:21

at times and impose

1:15:23

his will at times. So if he was

1:15:25

doing that at that time, I

1:15:27

might have come to a different

1:15:30

conclusion out of. But he was more sort

1:15:32

of struggling to understand you. Yeah. He

1:15:35

wasn't trying to. Yeah. Yeah.

1:15:37

Yeah. And it allowed me to give

1:15:39

that as a gift to him in a way. As well

1:15:42

as to sort of nurture

1:15:44

that relationship, you know. So

1:15:46

and I'm glad we did it. I'm glad we did

1:15:49

it because I'm still Jewish. Like

1:15:51

when I go to shul on Saturday

1:15:53

sometimes with my dad on

1:15:55

Shabbos, the Rabbi, Rabbi Kony is

1:15:58

his name. And he's said

1:16:00

to me, he's like, because he gives

1:16:02

me an Aaliyah whenever I go.

1:16:04

And the first or second time he

1:16:06

did it, I'm like, honey, I'm, you know, I'm

1:16:08

a Christian. He's like, well, you're

1:16:11

a little off base about Mashiach, but you

1:16:14

can't change your face, you know. So it's

1:16:18

really hard to get out of that. They're

1:16:20

like, I mean, if you can go

1:16:22

up there and and do

1:16:24

the and do the blessings, you you may

1:16:26

not get rid of you. Are you kidding me? Yeah. I

1:16:30

stumble over. I see that I see

1:16:32

that Christianity can be additive, you

1:16:34

know, there's something like, okay. Yeah,

1:16:37

yeah. So funny. Before

1:16:39

we go, how can folks follow you online, keep

1:16:41

up to date with all your writing and all

1:16:43

the great work that you're doing? Yeah.

1:16:45

So I do have

1:16:47

a website, Kate Cohen net. You

1:16:51

can contact me through that. I also

1:16:53

you can look me up at the

1:16:55

Washington Post. I

1:16:57

do one or two columns a month.

1:17:00

And about everything, religion comes

1:17:03

up a lot. But, you

1:17:05

know, I wrote a piece about the Barbie movie

1:17:07

recently. You know, so I like

1:17:11

to, I like to think about stuff. And I

1:17:13

have a good time. I think, I think one

1:17:17

of my highest goals is definitely to

1:17:19

entertain and to and I, yeah,

1:17:22

I think thinking about things is entertaining. But I

1:17:24

think jokes are entertaining too. So you get Yeah,

1:17:26

I'm trying to figure

1:17:28

out why Barbie, Bud Light

1:17:31

and Taylor Swift have been elevated to

1:17:33

this like, it's not just like

1:17:35

a political difference. It's like a religious difference.

1:17:37

Like, well, you can't possibly be a Christian

1:17:39

and drink Bud Light and listen to, you

1:17:42

know, I'm like, what do you like? How

1:17:45

did we get here? Well,

1:17:48

that is a whole other. Yeah,

1:17:50

we should definitely get back together

1:17:52

for that one. Oh, fascinating. Fascinating,

1:17:54

right? Fascinating. So before we go, we

1:17:57

covered a lot. Is there anything important

1:17:59

we have? discussed yet that you'd

1:18:01

like to add for this edition

1:18:03

of the Kate and Corey podcast.

1:18:09

I mean we didn't, I guess we didn't really

1:18:11

talk about the the connection

1:18:13

between between

1:18:17

atheism and uh

1:18:22

in politics exactly which

1:18:25

I would be which which oh yeah

1:18:28

um comes up I

1:18:30

kind of like um elbow

1:18:32

that to the side for a lot of

1:18:35

the book because I want to talk about

1:18:37

being honest with your kids and I want

1:18:39

to work out you know ways to live

1:18:41

a meaningful life that don't rely

1:18:44

on the you know supreme authority

1:18:46

right um but I also feel

1:18:48

and this comes through maybe more

1:18:51

in my um uh

1:18:55

in the column that I wrote for

1:18:57

the Washington Post in October when my book came

1:18:59

out and I would tell I would send people

1:19:01

to that um that column and

1:19:03

um I'll send that to you okay that'd

1:19:05

be great um there

1:19:09

is a way in which not

1:19:14

believing that there's a

1:19:16

supernatural being in charge of things

1:19:22

connects at least in my mind but but I

1:19:24

think in in in political reality

1:19:26

too with believing

1:19:29

that the earth or

1:19:32

the world today society today is the

1:19:34

way that humans made it and

1:19:37

that if anything is going to change it it

1:19:39

has to be us so

1:19:42

um atheists have a really um

1:19:46

strong record of act political activism

1:19:48

and I think that that is

1:19:50

at the heart of it is

1:19:52

just this sense of like it's

1:19:54

on us yeah um and

1:19:56

and and let me just say that um

1:20:01

There are incredible religious

1:20:03

leaders whom I admire

1:20:06

deeply who are, as

1:20:09

I would describe it, acting

1:20:11

like atheists in the

1:20:14

sense that they're not leaving

1:20:18

justice up to the divine.

1:20:21

They're not putting that responsibility on another

1:20:23

creature. They

1:20:30

are taking on that responsibility. And

1:20:33

I'm all for that. It's

1:20:35

not that you have to be an

1:20:38

atheist in order to take

1:20:41

responsibility for the world that it is, but

1:20:43

if you are an atheist, you can't think

1:20:45

that God is going to bail you out.

1:20:48

So that's one thing we

1:20:50

didn't talk about. You

1:20:53

might be surprised to know that we probably

1:20:55

agree. We end up

1:20:57

at the same place, even in things

1:20:59

like prayer in public places or sanctifying

1:21:02

through prayer a public meeting and things

1:21:04

like that. We end up

1:21:06

at the same place, albeit for different reasons. But

1:21:09

I'd love to explore that further. We

1:21:12

have so much to discuss. That

1:21:14

can be the end of the podcast. We have so much to discuss. I

1:21:16

can't wait. Yeah, this will be great. Well,

1:21:19

thank you so much. This was really even

1:21:22

more than I could have expected.

1:21:24

And that's saying a lot. I was

1:21:26

really looking forward to this. So I really enjoyed spending some

1:21:28

time with you. It's been a

1:21:30

total pleasure. Oh, good, good. And

1:21:32

as always, if you dig what we're doing here,

1:21:34

remember to follow this show and write that review.

1:21:37

Tell a friend about talking politics and religion without

1:21:39

killing each other. We're easy to recommend. Just tell

1:21:41

your friends, go to their favorite podcast app and

1:21:44

type in without killing each other, you know, without

1:21:46

the G and the killing without killing each other.

1:21:48

And you'll find our big purple logo. You can

1:21:50

find me online at Cory S. Nathan. That's Cory

1:21:52

with an E and S is in Scott at

1:21:55

Cory S Nathan. Now, oh, by the way, that

1:21:57

was a Philist thing. I was saying S is

1:21:59

in San. but my middle name is actually Scott.

1:22:01

So Phyllis has her fingerprints

1:22:03

all over this thing. She's

1:22:05

good. Yeah.

1:22:08

Now, if I can talk politics

1:22:10

and religion with Phyllis, with gentleness

1:22:12

and respect, then there's hope for

1:22:14

the universe. But go talk

1:22:16

to politics and religion with gentleness and respect

1:22:18

and have a great week. Mm

1:22:32

hmm.