0:05

You're listening to talking credit unions

0:08

with Chris Smith . These

0:11

podcasts aim to communicate topics

0:13

of interest from the world of credit unions

0:15

. Over

0:18

the years , the word ethics has been used with

0:20

increasing frequency in the world

0:22

of credit unions , and it got me thinking

0:24

. After all , I see numerous

0:26

references in credit union literature

0:28

, websites and other media

0:31

that credit unions are ethical . Well

0:33

, are credit unions ethical ? And

0:38

if they are so , do they shout about it enough ? Oh , and meanwhile , who decides

0:40

on which aspects of ethics

0:43

the credit union stands for ? The

0:45

credit union board of directors , the

0:47

management or even the members

0:49

? Earlier this year , the Swoboda Research

0:51

Centre published a short paper called

0:54

the Co-operative Bank: A case study of

0:56

the cooperative difference . It was

0:58

one of their reflection series . When

1:01

the co-op bank launched its

1:03

groundbreaking customer-led

1:05

ethical policy back in 1992

1:08

, it was the first time in British

1:10

banking history a high street bank had declared

1:12

that there would be some business activities

1:15

that , whilst fully legal , it

1:17

would prescribe as unethical and

1:19

declined to provide with banking services

1:22

. Inclined to provide with banking services , from oppressive states

1:24

to environmental degradation , tobacco

1:32

manufacture and testing on animals , the bank announced that business activities in these areas

1:34

would no longer be welcome . And in some ways , this rationale

1:37

for such a radical decision came about after

1:39

a kind of long period of introspection

1:42

and research by the bank into the

1:44

meaning of cooperation for

1:46

younger and more discerning customers . The

1:49

Co-op Bank was faced with an ageing customer

1:51

base and it took an honest

1:53

look at itself and understanding of

1:55

what value we describe

1:57

to cooperation . And , in

1:59

a nutshell , the bank heard from people

2:02

that being cooperative , whilst highly valued

2:04

in and of itself , would not

2:06

mobilise enough individuals to move their banking

2:09

. It was going to take something more tangible

2:11

, relevant and differentiating . Now

2:14

the author of this report is Barry Clavin

2:16

. Barry is an ethics

2:18

and sustainability expert , an advisor

2:20

to businesses , governments , charities and

2:22

cooperatives . An

2:26

advisor to businesses , governments , charities and cooperatives , Barry led a world-class team in

2:28

the delivery of a diverse range of award-winning sustainability and community programmes

2:31

. Barry's also the creator and author of

2:33

the Annual Ethical Consumer Report

2:35

. I asked Barry should

2:37

credit unions just copy

2:39

what the Co-operative Bank did back in 1992

2:42

?

2:43

Well , obviously the Co-op Bank was in that envious position

2:45

in one sense , which is that it's a standalone

2:47

bank , it's got its own customer base , it

2:50

can engage with them how it wants , as opposed

2:52

to where potentially

2:54

a conversation with the credit union movements

2:57

could go . Is that are they best

2:59

served by representing credit

3:01

union members as a collective or

3:04

doing it across every credit union union independently

3:06

? My view would be that

3:09

asking that question as a starting point , which

3:11

is where are we now ? What are we strong for ? What

3:14

are we known for ? Where do we want

3:16

to get to as a consequence of that , is where you've really

3:18

got to start from this point .

3:20

You're saying about whether they do it individually

3:22

, as credit unions , or whether they do it

3:24

collectively ? What's the downside of

3:27

them doing it individually

3:29

?

3:29

I suppose there'll be a couple of things . The first thing is obviously

3:31

is practically it'd be very difficult , because

3:33

you'd have hundreds of credit unions doing independent

3:35

explorations with their member base

3:38

to potentially come up with hundreds of different

3:40

answers . A part of this , and

3:42

part of what potentially this

3:44

particular moment in time the credit unions may

3:46

look for , is real high-level cut-through

3:48

once more , which is with the regulators , with the

3:51

media , with consumer commentators

3:53

. Is that best served by and

3:55

for customers , potential customers and members

3:57

? What do credit unions stand for

4:00

? And if they stand for 100 things , as you know , they stand for

4:02

nothing and they stand for everything . But

4:06

if we stand for two or three big things and we know

4:08

we do because we've engaged with our membership

4:10

bases across the piece I think

4:12

the potential to have something which then potentially

4:15

differentiates from others because

4:17

it's underpinned by a member-led approach

4:20

to these things , but then it expresses

4:22

what are those values

4:24

that our members care about across

4:26

the piece , I think that would be quite powerful

4:28

and could achieve some of that cut through

4:30

, could achieve the ability to communicate

4:33

it much more effectively and

4:35

also , essentially , it should allow

4:37

people on the other side , non-members

4:40

. If I want to be a member of the core movement

4:42

by the credit unions , what does that mean ? What

4:47

does it look like ? And how is it different from me just getting a bank account or getting a facility

4:50

somewhere else ? Because I can go to a bank and they will say they've got

4:52

a community program , they've got an environmental

4:54

program , they've got a diversity program

4:56

. Why the credit unions

4:58

? Why not the banks ? So

5:01

I think the learning that

5:03

we were looking to share from that experience

5:05

from the co-op bank , which was that that was

5:07

the real sustainable difference that nobody followed

5:10

. Nobody was brave enough to follow the co-op bank

5:12

and say we will stand there , ask our customers

5:14

what they want us to stand for , give them a vote for

5:16

it , give them an opportunity to engage and go ahead

5:18

with that hard to follow and if each

5:21

credit union , for instance , or

5:23

some credit unions started

5:25

setting up their own ethical policies , we

5:27

could end up going off what you've just

5:29

said .

5:30

We could end up with a situation where you've got

5:32

ethical policies disagreeing with each

5:34

other , whereas if there were five

5:37

or six cornerstones that credit unions

5:39

stand for and collectively bought

5:41

into that differentiates them

5:44

from competitors , that

5:46

might be difficult for competitors to follow

5:48

On that as well .

5:52

It would probably be cost prohibitive if

5:55

everybody is going to do this process independently

5:57

, rather than trying to find a

5:59

model which suits everybody is not

6:04

without its challenges , but would probably

6:07

be more pragmatic and cost-effective . But

6:09

also when you're talking the regulators and you

6:11

need to be able to get to

6:14

the nub of what you stand for, in those sort of conversations

6:16

, which is look , you need , you regulators

6:18

need to talk to us , because we stand

6:20

for this , and not only do we stand for this

6:22

. X

6:25

million members behind us stand for these things as well .

6:27

I thought it might be useful to ask some

6:30

credit unions what they felt about

6:32

the word ethics and whether

6:34

ethics could be a differentiator

6:37

between the credit

6:39

union and its competitors .

6:45

I started out by asking Louise Shields , who's the Chief Executive Officer of Claddagh Credit Union , which

6:47

is a credit union on the west coast of Ireland

6:50

, in Galway , and they have over 50,000

6:52

members and assets of over E210

6:55

million .

6:57

I do think it potentially it has a huge

6:59

unique selling point and I

7:01

think we have the framework , if

7:04

you like , is hard coded

7:06

with the co-operative principles . They are

7:08

in the rules . I think the banks

7:11

are likely to be catching up with us and particularly

7:13

with the introduction of the corporate

7:15

sustainability reporting and

7:18

within the Irish sector , definitely

7:20

one of our main competitors on post

7:22

is taking that space and

7:24

taking it quite well if you look at their advertising

7:26

and that . But it's ethics , it's

7:29

like reputation . You're one step away

7:31

from it destroying you and

7:34

that is the difficulty of it . The

7:36

other major difficulty of it is

7:38

everybody's definition of ethics

7:40

is different . What you think

7:42

is ethical may be absolutely abhorrent

7:45

to me . A lot of it depends on

7:47

time and place . If we look

7:49

back at the social norms of 100 years ago

7:51

, we would be horrified in today's

7:53

climate and similarly , social

7:55

norms in different countries are very different . So

7:58

I personally I would step

8:00

away from the word ethics because

8:03

I think it's too fluid

8:05

and I think it

8:07

would be easier to define particular

8:10

behaviours and to hold ourselves

8:13

account to those behaviors

8:15

.

8:15

In other words , there is a risk of being held hostage

8:18

to the word ethics ?

8:19

Yeah , yeah .

8:20

But you know you mentioned the banks there and I think

8:22

that's a really good place to start in

8:25

that . What do you think that

8:27

you do as a credit union that the banks

8:29

would find hard to replicate

8:31

?

8:32

I think it is that emotional

8:34

connection and that goes back to

8:36

the community , the sense of ownership

8:38

. Literally , people were taken

8:41

in by the hand when they made their first communion

8:43

, by their granny to put their

8:45

communion money in . And

8:47

that emotion is all linked

8:50

up with the credit union and you can see that

8:52

anytime a change is made , particularly

8:54

if a credit union is brave to change their

8:56

name or to close an office

8:58

, you very much have to take

9:00

people on the journey and to

9:03

acknowledge the history . But

9:05

you can't be held to use your word as

9:07

hostage to that either . The

9:10

banks , they're a different animal . They're

9:12

purely for profit and it makes life very

9:14

simple . Profit is easy to measure , it's

9:17

easy to see , everybody understands it

9:19

From a credit union , particularly the co-operative

9:21

principles . It is more intangible

9:24

and it's trying to

9:26

convince people that that has a value

9:28

and

9:33

they feel it .

9:34

But it's very hard to measure

9:37

and see . Established 25

9:40

years ago , the UK-based HEY

9:42

Credit Union formerly Hull and

9:44

East Yorkshire Credit Union has over

9:46

20,000 members and assets of over

9:48

£14 million , and

9:51

for many of those years John Smith was

9:53

the HEY Credit Union's chief executive

9:55

. He's now supporting the board of directors

9:57

and leadership team as a part-time governance

9:59

officer . I asked him about the

10:01

charter the credit union had created

10:03

with ethics in mind .

10:05

We thought at one of our planning

10:07

days board planning days we would set

10:10

out a chart showing who our stakeholders

10:13

were and what it is they

10:15

expect from us and then how

10:17

we aim to deliver it for

10:19

them . So we came up with , obviously

10:21

, our members as being a prime stakeholder

10:24

and we thought , you know , they would obviously

10:26

want reliable services and

10:28

security of funds

10:30

and they would want fair

10:32

and competitive terms for the savings

10:34

and loans and for us

10:36

not to discriminate unfairly , also

10:39

, you know , for a feeling of ownership

10:41

for those . That that was important

10:43

. For then we of course , had

10:45

our employees and volunteers as an

10:47

important stakeholder . What

10:50

would they want ? Well , it'd be things like fair rewards

10:52

and good conditions of

10:54

employment , job satisfaction

10:57

I think that's a big one really for anybody

10:59

who chooses to work at the credit union

11:01

feeling that they're making a difference and

11:04

they would want us to train them properly and

11:06

develop their careers with them and

11:08

security of employment . They want

11:10

to be consulted about things that happen

11:13

at the workplace . And also we thought

11:15

you thought you know pride . They would want to go

11:17

home feeling well , I'm really proud of what I've

11:19

done at the credit union . You

11:21

know , it's not just a job , it's , it's a calling

11:24

. So that was that . And then we

11:26

thought well , we serve our local communities

11:28

. Obviously , our credit union

11:31

serves a distinct geographical

11:33

area across the Humber region , as

11:35

well as some payroll partners

11:37

that are further afield . So

11:40

what would they want ? Well , the local

11:42

communities want us to support the local

11:45

economy , maintain a local presence

11:47

, have branches in the main

11:49

towns if possible , and support

11:51

local campaigns . If there's something

11:53

that people are really precious about , we

11:56

would want to be seen to be aligned

11:58

with that and also , I

12:00

think , be a good corporate citizen as well

12:02

, so that you know we

12:04

would try to do the right thing by

12:07

the area , not have premises that are causing

12:09

a problem for people in the street . And

12:12

then we thought well , suppliers are a stakeholder

12:14

as well , aren't they ? So you know they

12:16

want us to pay them promptly , support

12:19

local businesses as much as possible . So

12:21

when we're looking for someone to

12:23

supply us with goods and services , if

12:25

there's a local supplier that we can use within

12:28

our region , we try to use them

12:30

when possible . We would do that

12:32

. Then

12:38

central and local government well , obviously they would want us to pay rates

12:40

and taxes , be prompt with our returns and also have good standards of governance

12:42

so we don't cause them any problems . And

12:45

then and this is the one really

12:47

that we nabbed from the Co-operative Bank

12:49

really , and I'm quite proud to say that really , as

12:51

a cooperator , 'past

12:53

and future generations' . We

12:55

know that a lot of our members are very

12:58

keen for us to stay true to the

13:00

values and ethics that we were

13:02

founded with . You know they

13:05

soon kick up a shine if they think

13:07

we're doing something that's not in

13:09

line with their ethics . And also , you

13:11

know they'd want us to protect those

13:13

assets that we've built up with

13:16

their help for future beneficiaries

13:18

. So you know they don't want to

13:20

hear in their local press one day

13:22

that the credit union is selling out to

13:25

some PLC or

13:27

whatever . They want us to look after the assets

13:29

for forevermore really .

13:41

Mick McAteer is a campaigner for economic and social justice with a long experience of representing

13:43

consumers both in the United Kingdom

13:46

and across Europe , with a focus

13:48

on financial markets and public policy

13:50

. He was one of the original

13:53

founders of the London-based Hackney Credit

13:55

Union and he was also one

13:57

of the first fellows of the School for Social

13:59

Entrepreneurs At European

14:02

level . He was previously the chair of the European

14:04

Commission's Financial Services User Group

14:06

. I started out by asking Mick; do

14:08

you think credit unions need to show

14:11

how ethical they are ?

14:13

There is an expectation that credit unions should

14:15

be more ethical than for-profit

14:17

financial institutions , and I think

14:19

it's really important that

14:21

they have to demonstrate that . You know , I mean like any

14:23

organisation , you know , we just can't take them at their

14:25

word anymore . You

14:28

know there's a greater sense of expectation

14:30

amongst the public and consumers

14:33

and society generally

14:35

that any finance institution , regardless

14:37

of its makeup , has to

14:40

demonstrate its commitment to

14:42

ethical standards . You

14:45

know . So , yeah , you know you have to back this up nowadays with

14:48

evidence about what you're doing to demonstrate

14:50

that you are behaving ethically

14:52

.

14:53

Do you think members of credit unions

14:55

, or even potential members of credit unions

14:57

, care if their business is

14:59

ethical or got some sort of morality

15:02

to it ?

15:03

It's an interesting point , you know , because certainly in

15:06

our experience you

15:08

know credit union members and this is

15:10

a gross simplification but they tend

15:12

to fall into two types

15:14

really . You know there's

15:17

people who want to use credit unions because

15:19

they provide a good service . They know affordable

15:21

loans , so they quite often

15:23

good sort of dividend rates as well . So they do

15:25

it for the pure consumer

15:28

reasons , because they offer a good deal

15:30

. But I think the other category of member is

15:33

a type of person who does put

15:35

ethics to the forefront of their

15:38

choices . So the credit union . They

15:40

see the credit union movement as a

15:43

way of demonstrating their

15:45

commitment to ethical finance as well

15:47

. So two broad categories really

15:49

. People who behave like consumers

15:51

, generally just want a good deal , but

15:53

then another group of people who really do think that

15:55

ethical matters are an important consideration

15:57

when they're making a decision about

16:00

who to bank with .

16:01

Really , you think that people

16:03

would actually make some form of , maybe

16:06

financial , sacrifices ? They know that at

16:08

least the business that they're dealing with

16:10

is a good fellow I

16:13

think .

16:13

So I mean again , you know it's

16:15

it very much depends on individual .

16:17

But we do know there are

16:19

some people , for example

16:22

, certainly in parts of

16:24

London for example , where the credit union members

16:26

themselves , the ones who are savers

16:28

, might be better off , you

16:30

know , than sort of the average person , you

16:32

know but they're willing to make that

16:35

commitment to the organisation because they see

16:37

the ethical benefit , they see the

16:39

wider social impact that

16:41

actually supporting a credit union can

16:43

have . And I think in those cases

16:45

that type of member , I

16:47

think , is probably willing to sacrifice

16:50

a return and they

16:52

can probably get better interest elsewhere

16:54

if they put in one high interest

16:57

bond or whatever . But I think they're

16:59

willing to give up or forego that bit

17:01

of financial return to

17:03

actually demonstrate their own ethical

17:05

commitment

17:09

to the credit union

17:11

sector . And

17:36

I think this is where I think this issue

17:39

of being ethical and sustainable

17:41

and demonstrating a bigger

17:43

social impact I think is really important for credit

17:46

unions , because the credit unions

17:48

want to attract people , the

17:50

younger generation of members , you know

17:52

, who will turn into older members at some

17:54

stage , you know . So

17:56

it's all about getting people you know

17:59

to commit from a younger age . Younger

18:01

people , I think , do actually expect

18:03

to see a demonstration of

18:05

that ethical or social or sustainability

18:08

commitment for all of them

18:10

, regardless of the financial institution . It doesn't have

18:12

to be accredited . I just think there is

18:14

a bigger expectation amongst the younger generation

18:16

that it isn't just about profit

18:19

or about money . There's finance

18:21

institutions , big and small , to

18:23

have a responsibility to a wider set of

18:26

people than just the members or

18:28

the savers or the depositors

18:30

or the consumers .

18:40

Rob Harrison is one of the founders of the Ethical Consumer Research Association

18:42

. He's also an occasional editor of the Ethical Consumer

18:44

magazine and his most recent book

18:47

is the Handbook of Ethical Purchasing

18:49

Principles and Practice . I

18:51

asked Rob if he believes credit unions are ethical

18:54

, and he started by firstly describing

18:56

the work of the Ethical Consumer Association

18:59

.

18:59

We do consumer publishing and we do a magazine

19:02

which is like a witch guide to

19:04

you know your ethical tea or your ethical

19:06

cars , your ethical whatever ? And

19:08

out of that we also look at financial

19:11

services choices for ordinary consumers

19:13

and we look at all the places

19:15

that you could put your money , all the places you could invest

19:18

, all the places you could get mortgages all this kind of

19:20

stuff . We'd like a consumer publisher . And

19:23

when we look at credit unions , we

19:25

look at them in the context

19:27

of the services they provide and

19:29

we go order what do credit unions provide ? Well , they

19:31

do . Kind of savings is a critical

19:33

one , and so if we look at all the savings

19:36

accounts in the UK

19:38

that you could open as an ordinary person

19:40

, we find people like Barclays and

19:42

HSBC and Santander

19:45

, very big players in the carbon

19:47

sector . They're getting masses of criticism

19:50

. People from XR

19:52

are gluing themselves to the front doors

19:55

of these businesses in central London

19:58

there's also universities

20:00

are moving away from these companies

20:02

in pace because of their carbon involvement

20:04

, and that's just carbon . They're

20:07

involved in masses of other really

20:09

annoying things that people are

20:11

upset about . So when we call

20:13

credit unions ethical , what

20:16

we mean is is that , compared

20:18

to Barclays , they're bloody fantastic

20:20

because they are not

20:22

taking your money and giving it to really

20:24

problematic things around the world . For

20:26

the first reason they're ethical because they're not

20:29

a mainstream bank that also

20:31

does commercial lending to problem sectors

20:33

, and so we kind of put

20:35

credit unions in in a similar box for

20:37

our consumers as building societies

20:39

, because they kind of they're , you know , the kind

20:41

of member controlled and they and

20:44

they don't as a rule get involved

20:46

in risky lending to dodgy projects , and

20:49

so that is the kind of that's the kind of beginning

20:51

and end of the answer that we have to

20:53

wire credit unions . Ethical because they're actually

20:55

for an ordinary consumer whose choice

20:57

is across a range of things , they're

21:00

not doing really terrible things , but

21:02

on the other side of that , you know , they are

21:04

. Also they're addressing you

21:06

know some of them . I mean , there's a it's a complicated

21:08

market net , but they're addressing social

21:11

need in communities , and

21:13

so they're kind of going beyond that . So they're doing

21:15

something else as well , lots

21:17

of them , and they're kind of doing , you

21:19

know they're trying to address

21:22

, you know , inequality by

21:24

providing not outrageously

21:27

priced loans to people who will be

21:29

taken away by loan sharks otherwise

21:31

. So there are

21:33

those two reasons that we see them as

21:35

ethical , and that's in our

21:37

guides and our magazines , that's what we talk

21:39

about when we talk about credit unions and

21:42

so you know we're kind of yeah in

21:44

the macro sense .

21:45

When you look across the whole financial sector

21:48

, they stand out as just being really

21:51

good Rob is there

21:53

a risk of businesses jumping on the ethical

21:55

bandwagon by merely stating their

21:57

ethical credentials but not delivering

21:59

a quality service to their customers ?

22:03

I think one of the early misunderstandings

22:05

of when people saw ethical consumption

22:08

, lots of businesses thought , hey , great , we could

22:10

make a load of money here , charge a load of extra

22:12

for ethical add-ons and

22:14

daft people give us extra money for

22:16

stuff and actually that never

22:18

materialized . And super ethical

22:20

uh you know , super expensive

22:22

ethical stuff really struggled . Um

22:25

, and I guess it was obvious

22:27

when you looked at it in the people

22:30

would wanted to make ethical choices

22:32

in markets . But it's price and quality

22:34

first . All every time You've

22:36

got to get the price and quality right and

22:39

then the ethics . And if you haven't got the price and quality

22:41

right , don't even bother . You've got to concentrate

22:43

on that first , if you see what I mean , because

22:47

otherwise you know you

22:50

can create a reputation

22:52

that ethical stuff is great but it doesn't

22:54

work and we don't need that . And that was certainly

22:57

the case when we were , when we were young , when

22:59

it was first happening . The ethical coffees tasted

23:01

terrible and the , the

23:03

washing powders didn't wash and all that kind of stuff

23:05

, and that was like part of the , that was

23:07

part of the joke really at that time around

23:10

green consumption and in a sense

23:12

that's sort of been fixed and so , and

23:14

no , it has been fixed , and there's some fantastic coffee

23:17

and washing powders out there , but

23:19

, um , but yeah , price and quality

23:21

first every time . But then

23:23

you know , it's a really good

23:26

differentiator if there are lots of other people

23:28

around doing the same thing and

23:30

it's also and

23:33

it's also a good way of just educating

23:35

people about you know , the world

23:37

around them . If you're saying , look , we're

23:39

solving a problem , some people haven't

23:41

even noticed that's a problem , if you see what I mean

23:43

. And like , when we're writing at Ethical

23:45

Consumer , we're rewriting about banks

23:47

and you know , and carbon

23:50

, some people it's just never occurred to them that

23:52

banks are funding new fossil fuel

23:54

, you know , extraction in the North

23:56

Sea and all this kind of stuff . So

23:59

it's a good way of just informing

24:01

people about the world around them .

24:10

A good way of informing the world around

24:12

them , says Rob Harrison . What's

24:14

that got to do with credit unions , you might say

24:17

? The fifth item of

24:19

the Rochdale Principles of 1844

24:21

states that cooperative societies

24:23

and credit unions must provide education

24:26

and training to their members and

24:28

the public . And , according to the 1995

24:32

ICA revision , co-operatives should

24:34

inform the general public , particularly young

24:37

people and opinion leaders . So

24:40

where does that leave us ? Well

24:43

, we've heard that credit unions are seen

24:45

by many as ethical businesses , and

24:47

it seems that merely stating a business

24:50

is ethical is probably insufficient

24:52

without providing some form

24:54

of ethical standards and measuring

24:56

the credit union's activity against those

24:58

standards . Now , there

25:00

are many credit unions doing this in

25:02

different shapes and forms already , but

25:05

I'm particularly interested in what Barry Clavin's

25:08

view was . He said that credit

25:10

unions could collectively state a small

25:12

amount of clear , agreed statements

25:15

that sets credit unions apart

25:17

from its competitors , a combined

25:19

ethical stance that uniformly informs

25:21

members and prospective members what

25:24

credit unions stand for and

25:26

what credit unions will avoid

25:28

. Thank

25:43

you to my guests and thank you to the Swoboda Research Centre for their sponsorship and

25:45

support of these podcasts . If

25:47

you wish to read Barry Clavin's paper

25:50

, which is the 'Cooperative Bank:

25:52

A case study of the cooperative

25:54

difference' referred to in this podcast

25:56

. Go to the Swoboda Research Centre

25:58

website . You'll find it there . You

26:01

can also check out the Swoboda Conference

26:03

Making Collaboration Work , which is

26:05

on the 24th of May and

26:07

is held in Dublin , and you'll be able

26:09

to join senior managers and directors

26:11

from Irish and British credit unions

26:14

, together with key stakeholders , to

26:16

discuss the critical issue of getting

26:18

collaboration going and getting it right

26:20

. If you've

26:22

any feedback , ideas or suggestions

26:25

, my email address is smithowls@

26:28

gmailcom .

26:33

This is Chris Smith saying thanks for listening

26:35

. Bye now .