0:03

Well,

0:07

them to a very special bonus

0:09

episode of Talking fans. I'm

0:11

Harry Littman. Rachel Mattel's

0:13

great podcast series Altra,

0:16

follows the surprising story of

0:18

the rising fascist movement in

0:20

the United States in the late nineteen

0:22

thirties and early nineteen forties and

0:25

its flotation with bona

0:27

fide armed sedition. When

0:29

I was listening, I couldn't help but be

0:31

struck by the many parallels between

0:34

the extremism that Maddow Out covers

0:36

and what we are seeing in our politics today.

0:39

From isolated incidents of political

0:41

violence, to the January sixth

0:44

Insurrection. It was a thrill

0:46

to sit down with Rachel and a special

0:48

one on one talking feds to discuss

0:51

the remarkable story she tells in

0:53

Altra and how its historical

0:55

lessons apply to our own

0:58

struggles with radical violent

1:00

actors today. I hope

1:02

you enjoy the conversation as much as

1:04

I did. If you would like a video

1:06

version, you can find that on the

1:08

Talking Fed's YouTube channel.

1:11

And I give you Rachel Maddow

1:13

and our discussion of her podcast

1:16

series Altra and its

1:18

implications for our contemporary

1:21

struggles with domestic terrorism.

1:25

Hey, everybody. Harry here, and

1:27

welcome to a very special

1:29

one on one edition of

1:31

Talking Fed's I'm thrilled

1:33

to be joined by Maddow,

1:36

whom you perhaps have heard of

1:38

as the host of the Rachel Maddow Show, which

1:41

airs live Monday at nine PM

1:43

on MSNBC, but you

1:45

may be less aware of her

1:48

role as one of the country's preeminent

1:50

podcasts. Her two

1:52

thousand nineteen podcasting

1:55

debut, Litman, about Spiro

1:57

Agnew, which we won't be discussing

2:00

today, but I'll just say if you haven't

2:02

heard Litman, don't walk

2:05

to your nearest podcast app.

2:08

But no sophomore slump for

2:10

her. She followed Litman up with an eight

2:12

episode podcast entitled Litman,

2:16

which examines the history

2:18

of the, to us, obscure

2:21

history amazingly enough of

2:23

a seditious plot to undermine democracy

2:25

some eighty years ago and the

2:28

wild fight to stop it. So she's

2:30

here today to talk about Altra and also

2:32

to set it off alongside our

2:34

own current struggles with seditious

2:37

plot. Rachel Maddow. Thanks

2:39

very much for joining talking fans.

2:41

It's great to see you Harry. I've been so excited

2:43

about this discussion. I'm so glad we were able to

2:45

get it together. This is I'm I'm really looking forward

2:47

to this.

2:48

Likewise, I'm sure. Alright.

2:50

I I had one sort of question

2:53

about both of your podcast because

2:55

when I sort of took a step back,

2:57

the aspect that most stood out to

2:59

me was this sort of

3:02

gobsmacking quality, like,

3:04

holy cow, I didn't did I know that?

3:06

How didn't I know that that

3:09

came through both of them? So I just

3:11

wondered, are are these stories that

3:13

you came across as you were

3:16

thinking of putting podcasts together,

3:18

or did you know them already

3:20

because they had such a sort of stunning.

3:23

I couldn't believe that they were it's your

3:26

to me and I think to most of America.

3:28

Yeah. It's it's interesting. You know, you mentioned

3:31

the podcast as well, and that has

3:33

little bit of that quality, and I think the ultra

3:35

podcast has even more of it in terms of

3:37

people thinking Is is this fiction?

3:39

I thought I knew this history. Where did this come from?

3:41

And in both cases, I feel

3:43

like I knew a sliver

3:45

of And so when things

3:48

happened in the news and in current events

3:50

that I was looking for historical residents or

3:52

historical precedents, there was enough there

3:54

to kind of ring a bell like, oh, go look at that.

3:57

But then the thing that drew me into

3:59

it was whatever little bit I remembered,

4:01

as soon as I looked at it even a little bit more,

4:04

it was not at all when I expected, and it was

4:06

much more resonant and much more rich. And for

4:08

me, the the sort of keyhole that

4:11

led into the door of the Spiro acne story

4:13

was the revelation that it wasn't the

4:16

FBI that took down

4:18

Spiro Agnew and it wasn't adjacent

4:20

to Watergate in any way. It was coincided

4:22

with the watergate, but it was a completely different thing.

4:25

And when the US attorney it was fascinating

4:27

to me that when the US attorney's office in Baltimore

4:29

got on to spiroagnew sort of despite themselves,

4:32

they didn't trust the FBI enough

4:34

at the time to bring them into the investigation

4:37

and instead they brought an IRS agent as

4:39

the investigators that ultimately led

4:41

to the vice president, Agnew, having to resign

4:43

ahead of a forty count in federal indictment. So

4:46

that to me was like, oh, okay. This

4:48

this has been overshadowed because

4:51

of Watergate, but this is this is worth looking

4:53

into an understanding. With Ultra,

4:55

I was interested in Sad

4:58

to say because of its current resonance,

5:00

I was interested in antisemitism in

5:03

America, and in the resurgence of

5:05

Holocaust denial, And in looking

5:07

at that, I started looking at the origins of holocaust

5:09

denial. And it turns out there

5:11

is an incredible and very specific story

5:14

there. Like, Hall customized

5:17

a weird thing. It it it originates

5:19

in the United States in the nineteen forties when

5:21

there's thousands of GIs around who have

5:23

know, laid eyes and and refugees in

5:25

this country. People have laid eyes on the aftermath

5:27

of of the the Holocaust. It's undeniable through

5:30

human witnesses by the thousand. And

5:33

yet people start promulgating

5:35

it there for political reasons in in the forties

5:37

with with some surprisingly well connected political

5:39

allies. And in trying to look at

5:41

that story, which is story I might yet tell.

5:44

Yeah. I realize, like, where did these jerks

5:46

come from? Like, these these seem like

5:48

some particularly cretness Americans were

5:51

what's their backstory? And that

5:53

led me to this thing I had heard a little bit

5:55

about the great sedition trial of nineteen forty

5:57

four. And then you scrape a little bit below

5:59

the surface of it and lo and behold, there's this

6:01

incredible American history.

6:03

Christian spit scatters everywhere.

6:06

Yeah. So stunning. I

6:08

have sixteen things to say now about Litman. I'm

6:10

just gonna skip him and get disciplined and

6:12

go straight to Altra So

6:15

it's set in the nineteen forties.

6:17

The first time in nineteen forties, it follows

6:19

a rising I think you call it

6:21

a fascist movement in the country. Okay.

6:23

But now at the beginning of that

6:25

period, at least before Pearl Harbor,

6:27

there was a significant

6:30

opposition to entering the war

6:32

that think was wrong headed, but still

6:34

within a sort of relatively benign

6:37

or within a kind of mainstream of political

6:39

sentiment. We know about that. So I

6:41

I think the question that you just posed

6:43

for me is how did that semirceptible

6:47

or or, you know, it's a kind of thing Apollo

6:50

and a Lindbergh could stand up and say

6:53

come to be aligned with both

6:56

skittles and completely fictitious

6:59

you know, brazenly so attitudes

7:02

that were much more radical

7:05

anti Semitic, say, eventually seditious.

7:08

It's that kind of marriage that

7:11

I think is puzzling and really an

7:13

important question for whenever this

7:15

arises like

7:15

today. I think that's right. And the

7:17

the the initial premise of your question, I think,

7:19

is important and easy to

7:22

overlook from our vantage point now that

7:24

we know what we know about World War two and

7:26

what the result was of our intervention there.

7:28

But opposition to entering World

7:30

War two was not an extreme

7:32

position at all. It was very wide held.

7:34

It was the majority position. It was in

7:36

fact probably the only reason that

7:38

the FDR was reelected in

7:41

nineteen forty was because he promised in

7:43

the nineteen forty presidential election that we wouldn't

7:45

get involved in the war. And Democrats

7:47

and Republicans and third parties and

7:49

the vast majority, not the vast But

7:51

the majority of the American public was very

7:53

sympathetic to that idea that we just

7:55

shouldn't get involved. We were exhausted from

7:57

World War one and not sure that we should have done And

8:01

that mainstream, respectable,

8:03

rational point of view, then

8:06

have some ragged edges. And

8:08

they came those those ragged edges, what you

8:10

describe as fishy stick or indeed

8:12

seditious. And in some cases,

8:14

I think you could arguably say treasonous. Yeah.

8:17

Yes. We're we're I'm like yeah. We're we're

8:19

at the time. We're lost to me. Yeah. Once we're

8:21

at under the

8:22

constitution. Right? Once Germany declares war

8:24

on us, after we get attacked by Japan on

8:26

on on pro harbor, then it it becomes

8:28

a legally different thing and morally different

8:30

thing. Yeah. But you've got two, I think, things going

8:32

on. One is that the Germans are

8:35

spending millions and millions

8:37

of dollars in nineteen forty dollars

8:40

to propogandize the United States

8:42

against getting into the war. And so

8:44

they they sort of piggyback onto the mainstream

8:46

isolationist movement and decide

8:48

to make German

8:50

operation to the extent that they can. And

8:53

there was German support for the America First

8:55

Committee, for example. And there were German

8:57

agents who are working to shape

9:00

that movement and to drive it to

9:02

its sort of darkest well, the deepest

9:04

reaches to the benefit of Germany. So that's part

9:06

of what's going on. It's a foreign intelligence operation.

9:09

But then there's also a pretty well

9:11

established, fascist movement in the United

9:13

States. And it's not I think

9:15

that's harder for us to swallow. I

9:16

mean, literally, right, it's not not the dirty

9:18

word

9:19

than it is today. People stood up and identified

9:21

themselves as fast as -- Yes. --

9:23

there were costs in

9:24

writing love letters to Musolini. That's

9:26

They There's

9:27

a very, very prominent American intellectual

9:29

at the time named Lawrence Dennis, who's ends up

9:31

being one of the sedition trial defendants, and his

9:33

bestseller at the time is the coming American

9:36

judgeism. And in nineteen

9:38

forty, think I think it was forty,

9:41

maybe forty one. Lindbergh's wife,

9:43

Anne Moro, Linberg -- Mhmm. -- had

9:45

the best selling non fiction book in the country,

9:48

which was also a book about the glorious,

9:50

fascist future that was coming to the United

9:52

States. And there was an NBC

9:54

radio program at the time called America's

9:56

town hall or America's town

9:59

hall, town hall of the air or something like that. And

10:01

one of their initial big

10:03

national radio broadcast was, should we

10:05

turn to fascism? I mean, it was a it'll

10:08

be a diet. Germany had done it.

10:10

It was seen as being the rising

10:12

political movement of the future, and there

10:14

were big fascist organizing elements in

10:17

the United States for a long time. So

10:19

you add that. You add native American

10:21

fascism. You add a German intelligence operation

10:23

to a big diverse mainstream isolationist

10:26

movement. And you end up with some combustible

10:29

material there. Yeah. I'd

10:31

like to turn to me with the most trumpian

10:33

figure here, Charles Coglin, but one of the things

10:35

I mean, he's specifically, I think,

10:38

either paraphrases or quotes, Gerbles.

10:41

And, you know, there's the whole, before

10:43

the or when the Nazis are first coming to power,

10:45

there's the whole presentation in terms of,

10:48

you know, sloughing off the defeat

10:50

elements of advanced society

10:52

and a new kind of industry

10:54

and purity that, you know, a a whole

10:57

different face that now seems both

10:59

rise of all dangerous to us, but, you know,

11:01

it it was selling a little bit at the time.

11:04

Alright. So I think if there's a trumpian

11:06

figure in Altra, it would be

11:08

father Charles Coughlin who was just

11:10

a name to me. You probably heard of him

11:12

talk about so god's Maddow So

11:14

when the population of this country is a hundred

11:17

twenty million, a full

11:19

thirty million a quarter of the country

11:21

are listening to him every week

11:23

by far the most you know,

11:25

important and Litman

11:28

to radio show. Let

11:30

me start here. And this is kind of an imponderable

11:32

for historians, I know. So I I shouldn't

11:34

tag you with him. But just for discussion, how

11:37

important a figure is

11:39

he to the whole store you tell if There's

11:42

a world where Coughlin's never born.

11:45

Does this actually happen?

11:47

And I obviously -- Mhmm. -- it's

11:49

it's the sort of parallel of similar

11:52

questions. One could ask about Trump

11:54

whether, you know, you needed that kind

11:56

of spark to light the flame

11:59

because presumably at any given time,

12:01

there are ragtag elements around.

12:03

But, man, he seemed still played a

12:05

very, very critical

12:07

role. Yeah? Yes. And

12:09

when you describe those numbers about his

12:11

his radio listenership. I mean, I think

12:14

the thing that is when when we try

12:16

to make Coughlin an analogue

12:18

to some modern figure, whether it's a media figure or

12:20

political figure, I think it's you

12:22

almost, by necessity, under

12:25

state his influence by doing because there's

12:27

never been a media figure in the United

12:29

States who had his bigger reach and as much influence

12:31

as Father Coughlin, just in terms of the numbers,

12:33

in terms of the number of people who are following him. And

12:36

his political trajectory was interesting. In,

12:38

you know, nineteen thirty two, nineteen thirty

12:40

three, thirty four, he's on FDR's

12:42

side, and he's seen it being a progressive. I

12:44

mean, famously, his his periodical and

12:47

all his movements are called social justice, and

12:49

that's sort of seen the way he's alive. By

12:51

nineteen thirty six though, he

12:53

is has formed a political

12:55

party and is looking for

12:58

Huey Long before Huey Long has assassinated in

13:00

nineteen thirty five. Huey Long or

13:02

Huey Long type figure to

13:04

offer a fascist alternative to

13:06

American democracy. And by

13:08

nineteen thirty eight, when crystal knock happens

13:11

in Berlin, Coughlin is saying the

13:13

Jews deserved

13:14

it. Don't have any sympathy Americans for

13:16

what you're hearing.

13:16

Where they deserved it. Brought it on

13:18

themselves. They're they're the cause

13:20

of it. This thing. Right. And there will be more

13:22

worse to come if they continue their evil

13:25

Jewish ways. Right. He

13:27

also say he's saying openly by

13:29

nineteen thirty we have to choose either communism

13:31

or fascism. I choose the road of fascism.

13:34

And he's arguing that America needs

13:36

not only fascism, but it needs

13:38

to be achieved through a violent takeover. He says,

13:40

I choose the Franco way, and we should choose the Franco

13:43

way, and he's modeling military dictatorship,

13:45

military, logistic dictatorship along the lines

13:47

of Francisco Franco for the United States.

13:50

So to be that radical, while

13:52

also being the most listened to, most

13:54

influential media figure in the history

13:56

of the United States is really something

14:01

to contend with. Yes. You too.

14:04

But in terms of what he really what he contributes,

14:06

I've thought lot about this. I'm Catholic and

14:09

I think one of the dynamics

14:11

that think is underappreciated about

14:14

the fascist organizing that was happening

14:16

around that time is that Catholics

14:18

were the targets

14:21

of native fascist groups in the United

14:23

States like the clan. Right? We've never had

14:25

Right. Right. Right. I mean And tell Kennedy,

14:27

they were they were sort of their own lump

14:30

in for a time. Yeah.

14:31

Yes. So And there were a protestant

14:33

movement protestant fascist movements at

14:35

the time that were rapidly anti

14:37

Catholic. And in particular,

14:39

there was a lot of organizing in Detroit that was

14:41

really, really anti anti Catholic. And

14:44

when when Coughlin emerges in Detroit,

14:47

he is the voice of Catholics

14:49

who feel somewhat persecuted by the right.

14:51

And then he brings his Catholic followers

14:54

to the right and therefore

14:56

sort of eliminates that as a barrier

14:58

for organizing across groups of

15:01

white people and ethnic or different ethnic groups

15:03

of white people and makes the fascist movement

15:05

much bigger than it otherwise would have been. Because

15:07

otherwise you would have had you know, sort of Catholic

15:09

politics. And you would have had fascist politics

15:11

and never the Twain should meet. He brought

15:13

them together. And that ended up being really important

15:16

for the isolationist movement because what was

15:18

the big question? The isolationists and

15:20

the interventionists were facing. Before Pearl Harbor,

15:23

it was, will we help Britain? Right?

15:25

Britain is the last democracy standing

15:27

against the Nazis. Are we going to go help

15:29

the UK? Irish Catholics

15:32

are not Anybody Irish is busy,

15:34

but they're helping the UK, they're

15:36

helping Litman, and Coughlin uses

15:38

that to bring Catholics into

15:40

the isolationist

15:42

and then ultimately the fascist side

15:44

of the isolationist movement. And I don't think anybody

15:46

could have done it but him. Yeah. Litman,

15:48

he actually sounds the call. The

15:51

the, you know, he brings into

15:53

from from a sort of movement to an

15:55

actual violent on this street

15:58

kind of agenda, the the Christian

16:00

front. But I I wanted to ask because,

16:03

you know, the compelling question maybe

16:05

the most for us today is what makes

16:07

these movements not completely

16:10

well, this one seems scrubbed from history,

16:12

but at least Peter out because

16:14

it's around thirty eight or

16:16

he he does call the Christian

16:18

front into into

16:21

action and, you know, ballistic

16:23

action guns and the like. But

16:25

my sense is also that, you

16:27

know, crystal knocked thirty eight. Yeah.

16:30

November ninth, I wanna say, And

16:32

that goes a little bit too far.

16:34

A lot of sponsors abandoned Litman.

16:36

And then, of course, after Pearl Harbor,

16:39

everything kind of changes. But

16:41

I was a little bit uncertain

16:43

because of the chronology and the way your

16:45

eight episodes kind of unfurl. What what

16:47

is it not that does it basically

16:50

just go a step too far and

16:52

is no longer able to be, you

16:54

know, listened to by Polite America.

16:56

And is that what brings it down? Because Christian

16:59

front, the big Madison Square

17:01

Garden Rally, etcetera. That

17:03

post dates some of the moves

17:05

he makes that bring him into less

17:08

good

17:08

regard. Yeah. So he forms this

17:11

militia group, the Christian front. And it

17:13

actually has as radical as they

17:15

are, and we know that they literally

17:17

plot to overthrow the US government. They would have

17:19

pictures with guns in this. Yeah. Everyone

17:21

should look at your source material, by

17:23

the way, after it's really great

17:25

stuff. Yeah. We we posted all all episode that.

17:27

It's MSMBC dot com slash ultra. So it's

17:29

easy to remember, but they learn to build bombs. They

17:31

are stealing US military material

17:34

to build bombs and to stockpile military

17:36

grade weapons, including machine guns.

17:39

Browning light machine guns, which are a very, very

17:41

potent weapon. And even the Christian

17:43

front has more militant offshoots

17:46

that splinter off from them. They

17:48

want pogroms, they want more attacks on Jews,

17:50

they want to set off assassination plots earlier. I

17:52

mean, it's they're really quite kinetic

17:54

as a revolutionary group. The Justice

17:56

Department plays a role in stopping that

17:58

when in January nineteen forty they

18:00

make a huge splash by arresting

18:03

seventeen members of the Christian Front

18:05

Coughlin's militia. It's the New York

18:07

chapter. And they do sort of catch them

18:09

red handed with stockpiles of bombs and guns

18:11

planning this big spree that they think

18:13

is a big spree of violence that they think is gonna

18:16

set off a coup starting in

18:18

in New York

18:18

City.

18:19

And so, of course, they're charged in convict

18:21

and and the story. Just kidding. Let me

18:23

get to that in a

18:24

minute. Yes. I I wanna ask you

18:26

very briefly though because it it

18:29

was your interest as you talked about it.

18:31

About the rule of anti Semitism

18:34

in the whole thing. I I think of

18:36

anti Semitism, especially in that

18:38

era, as having kind of two different

18:41

strains, the sort of

18:43

protocols of the elders of Zion, Rothchild,

18:46

Jews control the banks in the world. That's

18:48

sort of thing, but also, you know,

18:51

a a more waspy

18:53

version, I could say, you know, looking down

18:55

on the Jews as kind of roping,

18:58

and clannish, and lump, and whatever. I

19:00

I I'm wondering and by the

19:02

way, you're you know, Altra includes disparishment

19:05

of Jews, but also some like Haile Hitler

19:08

salutes and genocidal thoughts.

19:11

So I'm just wondering what was

19:13

this I guess, state of anti Semitism

19:15

in the country or how these did

19:18

these two strains

19:21

braid together here? Or is it really

19:23

just the down and dirty,

19:25

nastiest, you know, Christian's front

19:28

version that that has all the

19:30

force? I think it really is braided

19:32

together the way that you're describing. I mean,

19:34

the coggling part of it not to get like too Catholic

19:37

in terms of talking about it, but I mean,

19:39

it's one of the really big

19:41

problems in terms of bringing

19:44

coggins followers and bringing Catholics

19:46

into fascist minded isolation

19:49

as sect. Is

19:51

that at that time, the Catholic church does not

19:53

view antisemitism as a sin. And

19:56

so Coughlin is preaching anti Semitic

19:58

conspiratorial tropes

20:00

from the pulpit.

20:01

It's it's it's actually still Catholic doctrine

20:03

that the Jews killed Jesus, right, until

20:05

the sixties? And there's all yes. And there's

20:08

and there's all sorts of room through

20:10

the church for Coughlin to literally

20:13

preach. Anti Semitic

20:15

tropes of both high and low. And

20:17

so he's talking about the

20:19

real life persecution of the Jews in Germany

20:21

and talking about how they need and how street violence

20:23

is cleansing and we ought to have that kind of street violence

20:26

here. That's pretty low. That's

20:28

pretty scurrilous in terms of the way that you're orienting

20:30

that type of political work. But

20:33

then he's also, you know, even when

20:35

he was sort of on the left, when he was talking,

20:37

when he was doing his populist, organizing.

20:40

was all about taking, you know,

20:42

taking America back from the globalists. Right?

20:44

Which is still here today. And

20:46

that sort of the the conspiratorial

20:48

side. No. No.

20:49

That nostalgic strain of nazism

20:52

is yes. And the cons the protocols and the elders

20:54

design and all that I mean Henry Ford

20:56

was, you know, he when he serialized

20:59

the protocols of the Elders of Zion in his

21:02

in his paper, he ran it as a as

21:04

a ninety two part series.

21:06

Like, that that's a lot of weeks. A ninety two part

21:08

series is a long series. And

21:11

and Cochrane was running that at the same time.

21:14

Man, this is going fast, but let's

21:16

just take a couple minutes to move from

21:18

the gov smacking to the

21:20

flat out hallucinatingatory. Tell

21:23

us about what happens after

21:25

the seventeen are arrested in nineteen

21:28

forty and the maybe tortuous

21:31

path of justice that ensues

21:33

or

21:33

doesn't. Yeah. This isn't an era where

21:36

you know, Jacob Hoover is

21:38

is not exactly, like, you know, running

21:40

a big and Jacob Hoover is not the captain

21:42

of Antifa. Right. Like, it's a like, it's particularly

21:44

focused on the right he never has been over the

21:46

entire course of his decades running the FBI.

21:49

But the Christian front thing is bad enough. I mean,

21:51

they've got an informant inside the Christian front who's

21:53

talking about the stolen military material.

21:55

They've got active duty national guard people

21:57

who are helping them. They've got a lot of cops who are

21:59

helping them. They are stockpiling bombs. They've

22:01

got dozen members of Congress. They've slated for

22:04

assassination. The FBI comes

22:06

to the belief that this plot is

22:08

within a week of going off and they finally

22:10

decide to move. And Hoover

22:13

personally does the press conference

22:15

where he announces that it's front page news across

22:17

country is this very big deal. That's January

22:20

nineteen forty. April nineteen forty, they

22:22

go to trial. By June, they're all either

22:24

acquitted or let off in a mistrial. It's

22:27

just it doesn't work.

22:29

They put them on trial in EDNY

22:32

in

22:32

Brooklyn, and they didn't do

22:34

a very good job with selecting the jury.

22:36

Turns out the four of the jury

22:39

was the first cousin of

22:41

the Catholic spiritual adviser to the

22:43

Christian Frank Coggling's man in New York

22:45

who oversaw the Christian front there. His cousin

22:47

was the forewoman of the jury. By

22:50

the way, did the you have defense attorney

22:52

questions. I'm stunning stuff about it.

22:54

Were those actually asked? Do you know?

22:56

They they proffer vardier

22:57

questions. How much do you hate the Jews

23:00

forever? Yeah. Are you a are

23:02

you

23:02

a Jew

23:02

or a US?

23:03

Are you Yeah. Right. Really? So when

23:05

when those actually Yeah. -- asked, do you know?

23:08

So for we know in the nineteen forty

23:10

four sedition trial in Washington, which of those

23:12

were asked and some of them indeed were.

23:14

We know both in nineteen forty in Brooklyn and

23:16

in nineteen forty four in Washington, there were

23:18

no Jewish people on the jury. But

23:21

at least Iker, who is the judge in

23:23

in forty four, he didn't

23:26

ask all the questions that he was that

23:28

that events Council gave him. In the nineteen

23:30

forty trial, we don't have a clear transcript

23:32

that tells us exactly what we're asked, but we know that

23:34

defense counsel was able to keep every every

23:36

due off the jury. Which in Brooklyn took

23:38

some doing. Right? I mean That's a good point. Yeah.

23:41

My my mom was there at the

23:42

time. She

23:43

I guess, she didn't get on. They picked

23:45

up a heavily German American Litman

23:47

American and Irish American jury

23:50

and the and the prosecutor who ends

23:52

up being the prosecutor of the great sedition trial

23:54

four years later in in DC, John

23:56

Ruggies isn't able to pull

23:58

it off. And coglund sees this

24:00

as a great vindication. Oh, you came

24:02

at me and you lost. We're now gonna be

24:04

in bold and we're gonna do more. I

24:06

think the truth of that is little more

24:08

subtle. I do actually think the publicity

24:11

about what could the Christian front members were doing

24:14

the fact that the trial was brought, the

24:16

allegations that were made in court, even though

24:18

they were acquitted, it was a little bit of an eye

24:21

opener as to how radical. Coughlin

24:23

and his followers had become. I do actually

24:25

think it hurt his his influence.

24:27

But of course, you know, by then, we're getting very close

24:30

to the start of the war anyway. Yeah.

24:32

This is actually a good segue to

24:34

the present because there's all this thinking

24:36

about, you know, as you feel questions should

24:38

Trump be prosecuted. What's it look like

24:40

if he's prosecuted and not convicted? Because,

24:43

you know, here in forty four, it's not as

24:45

if they're exonerated, but but they

24:47

have a kind of circus battle on strategy

24:50

that I think there you you see

24:52

Echosov with the Proud Boys and

24:54

oathkeepers, but it actually succeeds.

24:57

Alright. If we could, well, let me just say

24:59

very quickly that

25:01

how cool is this, that Steven

25:04

Spielberg's Amblin Entertainment has

25:06

optioned the film rights to Altra,

25:09

so we'll be seeing it come to the big screen

25:11

you can think about who plays COGLAND. I

25:14

had some thoughts, but Okay.

25:17

I did want to marry this

25:19

up to today which,

25:22

of course, this is part of the gobsmacking reaction.

25:25

I was like, how did I not know that? And oh

25:27

my god, you can almost draw like

25:29

a graph. Coggling lines to Trump and

25:31

this speech to that and it's so there's

25:34

so much overlap. Let me just

25:36

serve it up generally. What

25:39

did you see as you got deeper

25:41

and deeper into this story is the main points

25:43

of similarity and contrast

25:46

between the version

25:48

of domestic terrorism, you know, we've seen

25:50

in this country in the last two plus years

25:53

with the version that you chronicle

25:55

in

25:55

ultra. The thing that

25:57

I ended up taking away for it was sort of

25:59

a good guy's point and a bad guy's point. And on

26:01

the bad guy's point, I think what was

26:04

revelatory to me and I think was a new history,

26:06

almost everybody listening to this, was that

26:08

you have these really radical violent,

26:12

far right, ultra right movements, married

26:14

to right wing

26:16

politics, married to electoral politics,

26:18

towards in in the case of -- Right. --

26:20

this specific

26:21

matter is congressman. Yeah. Yeah. It's two

26:23

dozen members of congress who

26:26

are in some ways linked

26:28

through a Nazi agent who is operating

26:30

in Congress, but also linked to these very extreme

26:32

groups. And there is something that we need to, I

26:34

think, appreciate. About

26:36

the way it super charges

26:39

ultra radical politics to

26:41

be adjacent to electoral

26:43

politics. There is something that is more

26:45

than the sum of its parts for those two things coming

26:48

together. So for me, that was important. Like,

26:50

I feel like we have lot of forgive

26:52

me, I think we have lot of bad members of Congress now

26:54

and sort of scandalous. I'm like, I can't believe this

26:57

person's a member of Congress. We've really

26:59

bad members of Congress before too. And

27:01

so I wanna know I I wanted to

27:03

be able to document that and talk about that in terms

27:05

of what that meant for dangerous

27:06

politics. Can I do a quick follow-up

27:09

to that? Sure. Because that struck me as one

27:11

of the the contrast, these different

27:13

players, you then there's at least a you

27:15

you say up to twenty and you and you really

27:17

go into, you know, three, four

27:20

Hamilton Fish and and Ernest Lundin

27:22

and the like. But it strikes me that

27:24

what we didn't have and we have today

27:26

is pretty close to a

27:28

full on, you know, endorsement or affiliation

27:31

of a political party, qua

27:33

political party, and it often feels

27:35

as if until there's some

27:37

kind of root and branch reform

27:39

of the Republican party were in a

27:41

world or hurt. And that was less

27:43

so than struck me that maybe some people were

27:46

in for the money, other well, you

27:48

as you put it, as you mentioned in

27:50

all you know, rogue it goes to Germany after

27:52

the war finds a lot of deeper involvement

27:54

than people knew. And yet it feels

27:57

somewhat more splintered and

27:59

sporadic rather than an almost

28:02

official impreonder that that

28:04

you get from the Republican Party

28:06

of

28:07

today? Yes. And you're you're getting at

28:09

something that I think is important here,

28:11

which is the members of Congress

28:13

that we document in in the podcast

28:15

and that are known to have been engaged with this Nazi

28:18

agent and sort of adjacent to these violent movements

28:20

and everything, they're from both parties.

28:22

not that they are all Republicans. We

28:24

we focus lot on Hamilton Fish and he's

28:26

a Republican, but we also focus on Burton Wheeler. He's

28:29

not a Republican. And there's a bunch

28:31

of Democrats who are real

28:33

bad guys in this, and a bunch of Republicans

28:35

who are real bad guys. And conversely, there's

28:37

good guys who are Republicans and Democrats too.

28:40

The dividing line here in terms of

28:42

where you found this sort of bolus a

28:44

very dangerous, very radical extreme

28:47

politics, in some cases, allied with the

28:49

Hitler government, was in isolationism.

28:52

It wasn't in within one party

28:54

structures. And that's an interesting

28:57

thing. Right? That's something that doesn't

28:59

map super neatly onto what we

29:01

have. Now, but it did

29:03

create a challenge for the

29:05

isolationist movement. That

29:07

is a little bit akin to think what the challenge is

29:10

for the Republican movement right now. Right? Like like

29:12

as you said at the outset, there's nothing inherently

29:14

wrong or extreme about being isolationist ahead

29:17

of ahead of our involvement in World

29:19

War two that was a rational thing. It

29:21

was reasonable thing. We, looking back on it, would

29:23

certainly, I think, disagree with that position, but people

29:25

held that view in good faith. All

29:28

the people who held that view in good faith though, then

29:30

were confronted with the fact that they're

29:32

off. It was a large faction within their

29:34

movement that was taking money and instruction

29:37

from Hitler and supporting violent

29:39

armed overthrow of the United States. That

29:41

movement then needed to contend with

29:43

that. And box it out

29:45

and isolate it and condemn it. And they

29:47

did so to greater or lesser

29:50

success. Depending on

29:52

which year you're looking at Litman who is doing

29:54

it. But it's there is a

29:56

self regulatory need. You can

29:59

anti fascists can confront fascists

30:01

and that is needed and necessary

30:04

and we've had to do that as as a country

30:06

for for a century now. But

30:08

you also need conservatives to

30:11

confront fascists. And you

30:13

need it to come from within their among

30:15

their fellow travelers for it to be effective.

30:18

Otherwise, you end up just with this radical kernel

30:20

that keeps churning out dangerousness

30:22

over time. So I

30:24

yeah. The rest and it's you don't wanna be say that

30:26

it's two on the nose. You need to sort of take what's useful

30:28

from it, but also recognize how history is

30:30

intervened in some

30:31

ways. Howard Bauchner: Very much. Well, on that

30:33

to that point, right, you have intervention

30:35

of Pearl Harbor, which was a, you know, seismic

30:38

event. I don't think and I

30:40

I hope in fact that we don't have something like that

30:42

in our near future. Yeah. What about the

30:44

role of race and

30:47

religion today and

30:49

among the both Proud Boys

30:51

housekeepers, but also the hundred

30:54

forty or thirty nine Republicans

30:56

by contrast to the

30:59

different movements that coalesce in

31:01

Ultra. I think that we

31:03

should get more explicit about the relationship

31:05

between racism and fascism. And

31:08

I would for this purpose, I would put antisemitism under

31:10

the umbrella of of racism. What

31:13

fascism is in America

31:15

is saying, you know, democracy is

31:17

a problem that the problem that

31:19

we have as a country is that the

31:21

wrong people get a say in

31:23

the way the country goes, in the way we are governed.

31:26

And there are people who ought

31:28

not get a say and the government

31:30

ought to be run against them instead of

31:33

by them. Right? It's

31:35

a rejection of the idea of

31:38

elegitarian and multiracial democracy.

31:41

In order to get people to

31:43

that point of view, you need to

31:45

define some people as being unworthy in

31:48

participating in decision making about governing.

31:50

And that has to be because they are alien,

31:52

because they are evil, because they are

31:55

the other. They're the other. And

31:57

anti Semitism always comes, you know, always

31:59

comes to the fore. It's never never

32:01

far below the surface. And this sort of

32:03

radical antisemitism that

32:06

elements of the far right are trying to

32:08

platform right now is

32:10

I think a big alarm bell going off

32:12

right now. But it's not a separate

32:14

thing from the far right

32:16

interest in authoritarian solutions. To

32:19

what they're defining as the problem. If you

32:21

want a if you don't want elections and you want

32:23

a strong man to come in and run the country the way

32:25

it's supposed to be run, for the people who ought

32:27

to be privileged in this country and the other people

32:29

who shouldn't be participating in these discussions should

32:31

be ousted from the decision making process.

32:34

That fascist authoritarian longing

32:37

always always has to come with

32:40

scapegoating of the people who you wanna define

32:42

as other. And it's anti Semitism,

32:44

it's anti queer stuff, it's anti trans

32:46

stuff, and it's anti black and

32:48

pro white. It's racism of all kinds.

32:51

Those things it's not like one's

32:53

a motorcycle, one's a

32:54

sidecar. Those are the two wheels on the front axle

32:56

of this type of ultra right thinking.

32:59

That's a really great point. So I

33:01

have a sort of final close-up question

33:03

if you if you have couple minutes or more.

33:06

Okay. Well, so I yeah. I mean, it's sort of the

33:08

question we've been building towards and you've

33:10

covered it generally. But, you know,

33:12

thinking about both the forties and today,

33:15

so presumably there's always some

33:17

not just anti social elements, but

33:19

but really, you know, repugnant elements

33:22

in the US population who would make war on

33:24

the country. And the gripping question is,

33:27

what makes them come to prominence and

33:29

then what makes them recede.

33:32

So I don't think anyone

33:34

has the you know, crystal ball,

33:36

a certain answer here. But hopefully,

33:39

one day, the plague is lifted from us. Do

33:41

do you have a sense informed

33:44

by the lessons of the forties flotationless tradition

33:46

about how our current

33:49

troubles and and what basically

33:52

has to happen for I

33:54

I don't think they'll ever be as obscure in

33:56

history as as ultra as

33:59

the forties that ultra

34:01

took the cover off was, but but for it

34:03

to be history and

34:05

not such a pressing week to week

34:08

danger.

34:09

Part of the reason that I do this stuff

34:12

and the reason that my bookshelf looks the

34:14

way it does. And the reason that I read so much about

34:16

this is that I do think history helps. And

34:18

for me, the most helpful thing

34:20

is knowing that we have contended with this

34:22

kind of thing and worse before.

34:25

And not just the bad guys here are forgotten,

34:27

the good guys are forgotten too. Ultra

34:29

is mostly the story of the Department of Justice

34:31

contending with this and sort of trying and failing

34:34

to handle this through the criminal law and

34:36

why that didn't work. And but

34:38

but the that's not it. It's

34:40

not only the Department Justice not only

34:42

the criminal law. It's not only our

34:44

formal systems of accountability that

34:47

work. It's Americans being

34:50

anti fascists and doing that work. It's

34:52

journalism. It's protecting journalists

34:55

who do this work when they ultimately get

34:57

attacked. Both institutionally and

34:59

individually for having investigated and

35:01

called out. This sort of thing told the truth about what

35:03

these groups are up to. It's

35:06

counterorganizing. We talked

35:08

a lot about the sort of coggins influence

35:10

among American Catholics. There were

35:12

faith driven American Catholic

35:14

anti fascist organizers who bird dog

35:17

to those people and made their lives miserable and

35:19

exposed what they were doing. And it's

35:21

also political accountability. I mean, what you

35:23

get when you get good activists and

35:25

you get good journalists and you can get the

35:27

truth out about what these groups are doing and what they're

35:29

trying to hide and sort of they're trying to pull on the

35:31

American people. You can inform the

35:33

polity. You can inform the voters.

35:35

And I think the big good news

35:38

story about what happened in the forties is

35:40

not that Pearl Harbor came in and interrupted everything

35:42

and made us all open our eyes and then the fashions

35:44

melted away. It was that almost

35:47

all of these members of Congress who were hooked

35:49

up with Nazi agents who were hooked up with this kind

35:51

of ultra, right, violent extremism, almost

35:54

201 they were voted out. Including ones

35:56

who had been there for decades. Yes. Scurry

35:58

like cockroaches. Right? Yes. The voters

36:01

kicked them Litman voters kicked them

36:03

out in primaries. Political parties

36:05

in the states excluded them from running

36:07

again, and when they made it to the general election,

36:09

general election voters voted them out. And that was

36:11

because they had the information about what

36:13

kind of dream as some of these guys selling and the American

36:16

people didn't want it. And I think that through

36:18

line comes straight through today in

36:20

a way that is not weakening at all.

36:23

In this last midterm, you know, it's not I

36:25

don't know if this will be seen as a historic midterm,

36:27

but the election deniers,

36:29

which is people who don't want democracy.

36:31

They want an authoritarian form of government instead.

36:33

That's what election denial is about. They

36:36

lost all across the country, not everywhere.

36:38

But most places they lost including in places

36:40

where they were favored. And that is that's

36:43

nineteen forty four. Right? That's that's what the

36:45

elections look like when these guys came up before the

36:47

voters during Ultra as well. And the American

36:49

people have stood against this stuff when they know when

36:51

they know it's happening. And I believe

36:53

we will continue to do that.

36:55

From your lips. And let me just add as a lawyer,

36:57

the role of of the courts who have

37:00

been pretty important in actually speaking

37:02

the truth when their time. Has finally

37:04

come. Exactly. Thank you so

37:06

much, Rachel both for riveting

37:09

podcast and a fascinating conversation

37:11

today about its echoes with the

37:14

the the contemporary

37:15

times. It's been a great pleasure. I hope

37:17

you'll return one day. I absolutely will.

37:19

Very good. Thank you so much. I feel like with talking

37:22

fans, I'm like it's like talk radio, you

37:24

know, long time

37:24

listener, first time caller. So it's a real

37:27

long time girl from me to be here. Thank you so

37:29

much. Thank you. Thank

37:33

you so much to Rachel Maddow, and

37:36

thank you listeners for tuning in

37:38

to talking fans. We'll be back

37:40

on Monday with our regularly

37:43

scheduled episode. But if you

37:45

like what you heard, be sure to check

37:47

out our bonus content on

37:49

both YouTube and Patreon. Talking

37:52

fans is produced by Olivia Henriksen,

37:55

sound engineering by Matt Mercado.

37:58

Our gratitude as always

38:00

to the amazing Phillip Glass

38:03

who graciously lets us use his music.

38:05

Talking fans is a production of Delito

38:08

LLC. I'm Harry Litman.

38:11

Talk to you later.