0:06

Welcome to talking fans. a

0:08

round table that brings together prominent

0:11

figures from government law and journalism

0:13

for a dynamic discussion of the most

0:15

important topics of the day I'm

0:17

Harry Littman. We have

0:19

arrived at a midterm election that

0:22

threatens to plunge the country even

0:24

deeper into the polarized and

0:27

Fedid swamp that we've been

0:29

unable fully to climb out of

0:31

ever since Donald Trump walked

0:33

down the Trump tower escalator in

0:36

two thousand fifteen. The

0:38

electorate continues to be on a

0:40

knife's edge of division between

0:42

the two major parties. and that

0:44

is far from unprecedented.

0:47

The feature that threatens torend

0:49

the very fabric of our democracy is

0:52

a Republican party in continuing

0:54

thrall to Trump committed to

0:56

the big lie and to the tacit

0:59

or even explicit encouragement

1:02

a violent, extremist culture,

1:04

seemingly eager to ensure victories

1:07

with force if necessary. The

1:10

stakes of the national flotation with

1:12

autocracy were on vivid display

1:15

in the brutal attack on Nancy Pelosi's

1:17

husband by a demented extremist

1:20

looking to kidnap the speaker of the

1:22

house. The aftermath of

1:24

the attack featured jokes and

1:26

dog whistles from Republicans. including

1:29

some likely to be wielding significant

1:31

power come January. All

1:34

of which provokes deep concern that

1:37

we will look back on the imminent midterms

1:39

as another crossroads that

1:41

brought us even further down the

1:43

path of autocratic rule.

1:46

to help us navigate through a fearsome

1:48

legal and political minefield. We

1:51

are really happy to welcome three

1:53

commentators who combine extensive

1:55

political experience with

1:57

deep insight, and they

1:59

are.

1:59

Bill

2:01

Crystal, The editor at large

2:03

at the Bulwark and the founder and

2:05

director of defending democracy together,

2:08

an organization dedicated to defending

2:10

America's liberal norms

2:12

principles and institutions. He

2:14

founded the weekly standard in nineteen

2:16

ninety five and edited that influential

2:19

magazine for over two decades and

2:21

he served in senior positions in the

2:24

Ronald Reagan and George h w Bush

2:26

administrations. He is also the

2:28

host of the highly regarded

2:30

and expertly staffed video

2:32

series and podcast conversations

2:34

with Bill Crystal. Thank you as always

2:36

for coming to talking fans.

2:39

Great to be with you, Harry.

2:40

Carol Lee, a first time guest

2:43

on talking

2:43

well known to Most

2:45

of you as a White House correspondent for

2:47

NBC News. She's also covered

2:50

the White House since two thousand eight with

2:52

various organizations. including

2:54

the Wall Street Journal and Politico.

2:56

Carol recently served as

2:58

the president of the White House Correspondence

3:01

Association. I think that's become a more

3:03

interesting job than it used to be.

3:06

And has been a board member since two thousand

3:08

ten. She, of course, appears regularly

3:10

on TV and radio. It's

3:12

my pleasure to welcome her for the first time

3:14

to talking fans. Thanks for joining us,

3:16

Carol. Thank

3:17

you for having me. I'm delighted to be here.

3:19

and governor

3:20

Christine Todd Whitman,

3:23

the president now of the Whitman Strategy

3:25

Group, a consultant firm specializes

3:27

in energy and environmental issues.

3:30

And she is also cochair of the recently

3:32

founded Forward Party.

3:34

She served a course in the cabinet of

3:36

president George w Bush as

3:38

administrator of the EPA from

3:40

two thousand one to two thousand three

3:43

and she was the fiftieth governor

3:45

of the state of New Jersey and its

3:47

first woman governor serving from

3:50

ninety four two thousand one.

3:52

She's the author of a New York Times bestseller

3:55

called, It's My Party Too,

3:58

Whatever

3:58

is that referring to, which

3:59

was published in January of two thousand

4:02

five, and thank you so much for

4:04

coming on such an important week governor

4:06

Wittmann. I was good to be with you, and I'd

4:08

have to change the title of the book, Carrie. Right.

4:12

Alright. So look, our last

4:14

two episodes have focused on

4:16

a Republican advance to

4:18

a position where they look to be

4:20

strong favorites to take control of the

4:22

house and even money

4:24

for the senate. So

4:26

rather than try to tease that or

4:28

analyze it anymore, I thought Let's be clear

4:31

eyed, hopeful, but clear eyed. So

4:33

given the consistent movement

4:35

and the overall pulling, Let's

4:38

just credit the conventional wisdom

4:40

that the Republicans do hold

4:42

a small but real edge going into

4:44

Tuesday's election. And let

4:46

me start here and especially

4:48

for the governor and Bill. In

4:50

your years, in politics, you've

4:52

seen late surges change

4:54

elections. Again, crediting

4:57

that we are where Nate Silver

4:59

says we are, how frequent

5:01

are sufficiently dramatic

5:03

shifts in the last few days

5:05

and what typically drives

5:08

them? Well, I think

5:09

we're seeing it right now. The

5:10

waves happened, started maybe

5:13

a week ago where

5:14

you saw things really start

5:16

to change into the Republicans favor,

5:19

particularly around the issues of

5:21

the economy as it always is. and

5:23

crime. And the democrats have just not been

5:25

able to put together a message that speaks

5:27

effectively to the majority of the

5:29

American people on those two issues. abortion

5:31

certainly created a wave

5:33

back when the decision was first handed

5:35

down, but

5:36

that was too long ago. Now

5:38

I think we're in the middle of the wave, and I don't

5:40

see it changing before Tuesday.

5:42

I'm a bit

5:42

of skeptic on all this. It was

5:44

never a wave election. Everyone wanted to

5:46

be a wave election because they looked at the

5:48

last few mid years and those were waves

5:51

mostly, and that's not a bad metaphor.

5:53

It is just a metaphor, however.

5:55

I mean, I'm very early on, I was

5:57

skeptical that it was a wave because I looked generic

5:59

ballot. It was rep

5:59

plus two plus three Republican. This is way before

6:02

tops. And that that doesn't really

6:04

quite what the wave looks like. And if the individual

6:06

races were pretty competitive, then the Democrats

6:08

had a bit of a surge after jobs. Republicans had

6:10

a bit of a counter surge in September. I actually think

6:12

that stopped. And if anything, there's a bit of a

6:14

democratic, that's it's an election

6:17

with countervailing currents, I would say.

6:19

Somewhat different in different states,

6:21

somewhat different in different geographic regions,

6:23

for example. think Democrats are gonna hold

6:25

this at it personally, but what do I know? I mean, I could

6:27

be forecasting. I think Republicans probably

6:29

win the House. But for example, there's

6:31

clearly Democratic over performance

6:33

in parts of the Midwest and the Plains States,

6:35

sort of Eisenhower dull Republicans,

6:37

if you will, continuing to move away from

6:39

a Trumpy Republican party. There's

6:42

clearly Republican over performance in

6:44

how do we simplify this? In lumpy areas,

6:47

and blue states. It's as if

6:49

they finally decided in upstate New York

6:51

and in parts of Atlanta, California

6:54

that they were gonna sort of do what they did in

6:56

Pennsylvania and Ohio. one or two or

6:58

three cycles ago. And so they they were

7:00

held back in a way by the nature of their state. You

7:02

might say, so I think there's a lot going on, but it's

7:04

somewhat countervailing. And I I think the

7:06

House has said it could go in somewhat different directions,

7:08

and these state races are really on a

7:10

on a nice edge. When you see polls that are consistently

7:12

forty eight, forty seven, forty six forty eight.

7:15

There's no wave. That's that's very, very

7:17

close election. There's been some slight movement

7:19

in in both directions now, I would

7:21

say. The big picture is

7:24

that it's a fifty fifty nation for

7:26

someone like me and, I guess, we're gonna

7:28

cover a witness on this. If someone if you're anti Trump

7:30

and the fact that it's still fifty fifty.

7:32

after four years of a Trump presidency, disregard

7:35

for the rules of law, everything that

7:37

happened January sixth. That

7:39

for me is the big and depressing fact Republican

7:41

Party is paying no obvious price

7:44

politically

7:45

for being a conspiratorial

7:48

violence adjacent in some cases,

7:50

election denying. Party individual

7:53

candidates have gone too far in Australia or something

7:55

in Pennsylvania and will lose, but

7:57

Carrie Lake is on the bubble, a lot

7:59

of other

7:59

people are in terms of winning. And so

8:02

for me, that means going forward just to

8:04

finish at this point, It's

8:05

gonna be as Trumpy or Trumpier

8:07

a Republican party in twenty twenty

8:09

three as it has been in twenty

8:11

twenty, twenty twenty one, twenty twenty two. and

8:13

that wasn't inevitable, but it's

8:16

pretty striking if you step back and look

8:18

for thirty thousand feet. It's like we had January

8:20

sixth and and nothing changed. The

8:22

one thing I thought was, well, at

8:24

least, this is finally over. So

8:26

the general point here, I guess, is two

8:28

points here, two points there where

8:30

there's still a big influence of Trump who

8:32

is in today's New York Times said to

8:34

be preparing an announcement. I

8:36

know there's pretty strong early

8:38

voting for example, including among the young, do

8:40

you see anything out there that

8:42

might influence or impinge on

8:44

the dynamic that

8:46

does have their their additional

8:48

party out of power, you know, with a

8:51

nosebleed. Everything

8:52

feels pretty baked right now.

8:54

I think that the one

8:56

question that's hanging out there is if anyone

8:58

has a

8:58

good pulse on what voters are

9:00

feeling and thinking, we have just

9:03

not had a good track record of that.

9:05

And I don't know that that how much

9:07

better that's gotten. We'll see. From the

9:09

White House's perspective, I can tell you what

9:11

they're thinking and that is they are resigned

9:13

to having a bad night on Tuesday

9:15

and resigned that the election

9:17

could continue on through the

9:19

week. in terms when results are coming

9:21

in. You use the word clear eyed at the start

9:23

of this. That is actually a word word

9:26

the White House official used to me, which is they are

9:28

clear eyed about this. And

9:30

I think they're we resigned

9:32

to the house turning, and

9:34

now it's just a question of margins in

9:37

their view. the Senate,

9:39

there's still a little hope whether or not

9:41

that's justified. You know, we just

9:43

don't know yet, but

9:45

they are prepared and they're

9:47

preparing for Washington and the

9:49

country to just look different

9:51

on Wednesday morning. And so

9:53

that's resulted in a number of things.

9:55

There is a change in the governing strategy.

9:57

There'll be a crash to get stuff done in the

9:59

lame duck that they wanna get done. And

10:01

frankly, that some Republicans wanna get

10:03

done and are afraid they won't be able to with the

10:05

new Congress. There's gonna be

10:07

investigations that they've been preparing

10:09

for for months. There could be some staff turnover

10:11

though president Biden is not known

10:14

for firing anyone, so

10:16

it's unclear how much a

10:18

turnover there will be. And then there's

10:20

the finger pointing and the big question

10:22

and there at White House is aware that this is going

10:24

to escalate. And that is whether

10:26

president Biden should run

10:28

in twenty twenty four. That question

10:30

has been muted for a little while,

10:32

and it's gonna come right back up as soon

10:34

as this is over. And if Democrats have a really

10:36

bad night, that's gonna just

10:38

fuel

10:38

those questions. Wow.

10:40

What really worries me though is

10:42

the state and local elections.

10:44

You have eighteen Republican

10:46

candidates for governor who are

10:48

election deniers. You have

10:50

ten Republican candidates for attorneys

10:52

general who are election deniers.

10:54

and twelve candidates for secretary of

10:56

state who are election deniers. And those are the

10:58

very people who oversee the elections. You have

11:01

a Republican gubernatorial candidate.

11:03

Now I can't remember which state he was from who said,

11:05

if I get elected, I'll make sure

11:07

that Republicans never lose another

11:09

election. and that is so

11:11

undemocratic. But getting people

11:13

to focus on that is hard. I mean, it's

11:15

too esoteric, frankly, they hey,

11:17

it's always been this way. We've had bad times.

11:19

Things will be fine. But, no, these people are

11:21

in a position where they really can

11:24

change the basic rules of

11:26

the game. And put people who don't

11:28

believe in our electoral process in

11:30

charge of it, we could have some

11:32

really, really hard times coming

11:34

forward. That's

11:35

actually it's something that when,

11:37

you know, Joe Biden was vice president in

11:39

twenty ten during the show lacking that

11:42

president Obama then said he took And

11:44

he's familiar with how this

11:46

goes when you have a change like

11:48

this. What's different this time? All

11:50

of those things I just mentioned governing,

11:52

litigations, finger pointing, staff turnover.

11:54

That's all gonna happen. What's different this

11:56

time is that, is the election deniers,

11:59

is the conspiracy theories, is the

12:01

disinformation they're gonna be

12:03

battling that on top

12:05

of all of those other changes. And

12:07

that's just a different dynamic, and it's

12:09

not clear that this White House has

12:11

a real handle on how to deal

12:13

with that. I'm

12:13

so glad you guys brought that up because I did

12:16

wanna move to the Gubernetorial and

12:18

the Secretaries of State.

12:20

I'll just note in passing that as

12:22

a kind of last move, White House and Biden

12:25

had a kind interesting gambit where

12:29

Biden did try to drive home,

12:31

you know, we can't take democracy

12:33

for granted any longer We think

12:35

of him as sort of Scranton Joe

12:38

focused on kitchen table politics, but

12:40

he really tried to

12:42

make a case that democracy is

12:44

on the ballot, and I guess

12:46

we can ask whether he made the

12:48

sale. But moving directly to

12:50

your point governor, and you would know it

12:52

better than anyone. I mean, it has

12:55

very bad auguries immediately

12:57

for taking the pulse of where we are in the

12:59

country, as Bill said, but it's

13:01

got very practical concerns

13:04

for twenty twenty four

13:07

because the people who will then be

13:09

in office are going to be in

13:11

a position to distort

13:13

and try to direct

13:15

the result notwithstanding the

13:17

will of the voters.

13:19

Alright?

13:19

And if you look at some of these bills that have

13:21

been pending that so far have been able to hold

13:23

off,

13:24

they change the dynamic completely

13:27

as to who can vote? Where they can vote?

13:29

How they can vote? Well, Pennsylvania right

13:31

now with that having lost

13:33

that case because the Supreme Court

13:35

there was split. And so that the that

13:37

was proposed goes to say even

13:39

if your ballot, your mail in ballot

13:41

was postmarked before or

13:43

on election day. If you didn't write it out

13:45

in hand, it doesn't count.

13:47

disenfranchising

13:47

people over

13:48

something like that

13:50

makes no sense and is scary. And you're going to

13:52

see worse kinds of bills. There are bills

13:54

out now that are pending that

13:56

would allow one person to call into

13:58

question an election and actually

14:00

force a recount and

14:02

force hand counting of ballots. which

14:04

only leads to more time, for more

14:06

conspiracy theories, for more

14:08

doubters. They're really undermining our

14:10

democracy, and frankly, Trump has been on that

14:12

bandwagon, but you have to give

14:13

him credit for He was ahead of it, really. Right? I've

14:15

been doing it right

14:17

along since well, before twenty sixteen,

14:19

even Mitt Romney's race, he said, well, stolen

14:21

that election. But right after that, he

14:23

kept beating that drum, and it's it's

14:25

gotten into people's consciousness.

14:28

Just

14:28

a very quick lawyer's note here, which

14:31

is maybe the head of the parade of

14:33

Horribals is the supreme court

14:35

argument coming up in a few weeks. where they

14:37

may effectively hold that as

14:39

between state legislatures and

14:41

state courts whose name it is to

14:43

interpret state law, state

14:45

legislatures, which of course, lean

14:47

Republican, have ultimate

14:49

authority as a matter of

14:51

federal law, completely head

14:53

bending idea, but it it could be

14:55

coming at us like a freight train. I mean,

14:57

look, I

14:57

think most of we've been we're public

15:00

connectivity project. pretty involved

15:02

in some of these races. I think most of the most

15:04

rapid secretary of state candidates

15:06

in swing states will lose

15:08

Michigan and Arizona, I

15:10

think. I think in some of the

15:12

most rapid gubernatorial candidates along

15:14

those lines in Michigan, Pennsylvania, for

15:16

example, lose. So it could be worse,

15:18

but they're also could win in Arizona,

15:20

Nevada, and elsewhere. So

15:22

some states will be worse than others. I am worried just

15:24

two things of it. The general climate in the way at

15:26

which the political party is going is very

15:28

worrisome. I mean, are we confident there won't be

15:30

by incidentally, violence and intimidation

15:32

and riots on Wednesday? I mean, yeah,

15:34

I'm very worried about this. If Carrie Lake

15:36

is ahead at midnight in Arizona

15:39

by two points and is behind

15:41

by a half point by eight AM Wednesday

15:43

morning, which is totally possible at the

15:45

same time with the twenty twenty two, which is is

15:47

she gonna concede gracefully? Is she

15:49

gonna challenge it? Is she gonna find supporters of hers

15:51

who will testify to terrible

15:53

fraud going on at different places in the state. Well,

15:55

she not call for thousands of her supporters to go

15:57

to the Arizona Convention Center and make

15:59

sure that the election's not being stolen Will

16:01

they not go? Will they not be armed? I mean, I

16:03

think the degree to which we could be in a situation that

16:05

we have very rarely seen in

16:08

modern America on Wednesday or

16:10

Thursday for this week. Let alone the

16:12

next, you know, weeks and months and years, which are

16:14

also extremely worrisome. I'm very

16:16

worried about that. And secondly, more broadly,

16:18

also, I think looks a lot of these razors are very close. And so

16:20

the country is kind of fifty fifty. And so in a way,

16:22

you shouldn't over interpret a fifty point three

16:24

to forty nine point seven victory. I don't know what's that show

16:26

reality about the country. But if

16:28

some of these candidates whom Trump

16:30

has sort of invented

16:32

health twin primaries -- Right.

16:34

-- afforded the general election, then

16:36

win. it's a huge victory

16:38

for Trump. And it will accelerate the move

16:40

towards Trumpism. It's not just the status quo.

16:42

If if Carrie Lake and she's most important in them, but

16:44

I wanna say the same as true of the governor

16:46

candidate in Wisconsin, the same is true

16:48

of of Oz, the entertainment is

16:50

true of Walker in Georgia. None of those people

16:52

would be the Republican nominee today

16:54

if Trump hadn't. to pick them out a

16:56

year ago. None of them was supported

16:58

originally by this Republican establishment in their

17:00

state. Do see campaign against Gary Lake as

17:02

recently as, you know, a week before the primary. Right?

17:04

Trump will say truthfully. I got them

17:07

nominated. I won the primary. I

17:09

supported them in the general. I did rallies for

17:11

them. All of you smart people said, oh,

17:13

with kiss of death. Democrats spent money to help

17:15

Carrie Lake in Arizona. Is she

17:17

then she's the most important thing? Is she

17:19

wins the degree to which the whole

17:21

party decides, okay, that's the

17:23

way to win. And incidentally, if you're an

17:25

ambitious twenty eight year old or forty eight year old

17:27

running for office in twenty twenty three or

17:29

twenty twenty four, you think

17:31

You know what I have to do? I have to make sure Donald Trump

17:33

endorses me in my prime rate no matter

17:35

what. That is the ticket for

17:38

admission. And I'm gonna say whatever I need to say

17:40

to get Trump on board, and they won't be

17:42

wrong. So I think people are

17:44

underestimating the overall effect

17:46

of this election. if the election deniers do. Well,

17:48

it's not as if it's just like a stable

17:51

snapshot and, oh, well, this state has a bad

17:53

election denier. This doesn't. So that's

17:55

extremely important. in terms of the

17:57

practicalities of what would happen in twenty four,

17:59

in terms of overturning, you know, the results

18:01

and so forth. But the overall spirit of

18:03

the Republican Party goes even

18:05

more in a Trumpist conspiratorial,

18:08

you know, somewhat anti democratic, somewhat

18:11

violence, tolerating. direction.

18:13

That's what worries me the most about the

18:15

next weeks and months of years

18:16

though.

18:17

Yeah. And it's not somewhat I think

18:19

you're being generous in your state. somewhat

18:21

caution denying a somewhat violent

18:24

prone. Yeah. You know, that's what's

18:26

truly scary. I mean, this is real stuff we're

18:28

talking

18:28

about, and people

18:29

will get hurt and lives

18:31

could be lost. You don't know, but this is

18:33

as close to a revolution. I

18:35

think as as we've ever seen and

18:37

and what it's doing to us internationally on

18:40

the international stage is also important for

18:42

our ability to continue

18:44

to be relevant. And

18:47

I worry terrificly when you have the

18:49

Republicans saying, oh, Marjorie Taylor

18:51

Green, who is gonna have a lot more

18:53

power in the House should Republicans take

18:55

it and says not another penny

18:57

to Ukraine. and you

18:58

want to say, that's

18:59

fighting our war. Have

19:01

you ever looked at history? Go back. Please

19:03

go back to the thirties and forties.

19:05

but, of course, they haven't and they won't. And

19:08

it's worry. So with seven grandkids,

19:10

I'm really scared.

19:11

Yeah. And look, I'll just add that

19:13

what you say about Trump bill seems to me to be case

19:15

whether or not he runs. Whether

19:17

or not he's in jail, he will

19:19

be the most powerful important figure

19:22

in the party and the And he's gonna

19:24

run. He's not gonna be in jail. And if he's in

19:26

jail, he'll run, incidentally. If he's in jail, he'll

19:28

run. Yeah. That's true. Carol. He's done

19:30

probably reporting on this and knows more than we

19:32

do, but I've always thought he would announce right

19:34

after the election. I said today

19:36

somewhere else that I thought he would just announce on

19:38

election day. I would actually

19:40

feel ever, I think. He was, like, getting single story. If a couple

19:42

of his candidates win, he's there on election

19:44

night taking credit. But I don't know how

19:46

solid this reporting is to fill it out a week later,

19:49

but the degree to which Trump gets to be front and

19:51

center, half of Biden's

19:52

own mind and his White House

19:54

will say, I've got to write against out of the other

19:56

way it could be Trump. the

19:58

other half and most Democrats outside the Biden White House will say,

20:00

oh, you know, we need to fresh start in

20:02

a generational turnover. But I'm I'm curious if I could just

20:04

I mean, ask Carol, what do you think about

20:07

that? we're gonna all keep a sigh of relief, you know, just because it's

20:09

over. And people gonna try and take a few days

20:11

off on November ninth. And Trump's gonna run the house

20:13

right away, and there's gonna be leadership elections in

20:15

the house and there could be chaos

20:17

and some state capitals. It's gonna be crazy, I think. Howard

20:19

Bauchner: Carol, let me ask

20:20

you to add to that. Who

20:22

do

20:22

you see if Biden

20:23

doesn't run? If he's not the nominee? Who would

20:26

it be? as the

20:27

question that Democrats ask

20:30

themselves. It's

20:30

a question that the president himself

20:32

in private meetings at fundraisers,

20:34

and I've talked to people who've talked

20:36

to him at at various events, we'll walk people

20:39

through. Who's not me? Who?

20:41

Is Cottman gonna beat him? Is

20:43

Buttigieg gonna beat Trump? You know? And

20:45

so that's kind of exercise that he

20:47

goes through and that Democrats go through and that they

20:49

will be going through on

20:51

Wednesday for sure. And our reporting is

20:53

that Trump is going to before December. With

20:55

the giant caveat that having

20:57

covered him during his time in office,

20:59

he can change his mind on a dime

21:02

and could run or you might not run or

21:04

you might do a big event and just say,

21:06

hi, and there's no there

21:08

there. So no one fully knows, but that's the

21:10

expectation. And then

21:12

that puts pressure on

21:14

the White House of the president, does

21:16

he then try to declare

21:19

earlier? Our recording is that the president's

21:21

gonna file paperwork soon after the holidays. So,

21:23

you

21:23

know, they're looking closer

21:24

to January than later, like

21:26

April, which is what President Obama did

21:28

for his reelection. And

21:31

Does he try to move that up? because Democrats are gonna

21:33

be asking those questions

21:35

again, oh, should he run, is he the best person?

21:37

And one of the things that you're going

21:39

to see. I was talking to somebody who's

21:41

with the president on a fundraiser earlier this

21:43

week who said they're gonna look at the polling

21:45

when you match up Biden versus Trump,

21:47

and then you match up you know, Kamala

21:49

Harris versus Trump, it's Biden's going

21:51

to come out as the one who

21:54

looks at least right now at this

21:56

snapshot in time as the candidate who's

21:58

most viable. So that's the argument that he's

22:00

going to make. Look, I have talked to

22:02

people who think that the president would not run again

22:04

if Trump didn't, that

22:06

he's frustrated in the job. He obviously

22:08

likes the job, but it's not the

22:10

Washington he knows. He doesn't really understand it.

22:12

He sees these guys in the senate. They used to be

22:14

friends, and he says, yeah, are these people? And

22:16

he's obviously older. But

22:19

if Trump is in the race, the

22:21

belief among people close to the president

22:23

is that he's in the race too. And know

22:25

I interviewed the first lady recently

22:27

and, you know, she's supportive of

22:29

of him running again.

22:31

and he has the family behind him. And so

22:33

it looks like it will be

22:36

a match up until it's not. I mean,

22:38

he can always pull back and Trump

22:39

can always pull back

22:41

too. Just

22:41

in thinking through next two weeks and months, Trump will there

22:43

won't be indicted, maybe in Georgia,

22:45

but more importantly, I would say,

22:46

at the federal level.

22:49

So

22:49

then if he is and if the House is Republican, they will go

22:51

totally crazy. They will impeach Merrick Garland. The

22:53

the Hunter Biden hearings will be on

22:55

six sessions a week of that and they and

22:57

that could be Who knows what they'll find

22:59

there? They'll try to defund parts of the Justice

23:02

Department. I mean, it's gonna be we thought ninety five was

23:04

dramatic. Gonna be all white. Newton

23:06

Clinton. I mean, it's it's gonna make ninety five

23:08

look like a picnic, you know. And it's gonna be ugly

23:10

every which way. If Trump's indicted or all the

23:12

Trump is Trump gonna take it, like, oh, wow.

23:14

That's it. There's the rule of law in this country. I've gotta

23:16

be very Right? And I can't ask people

23:18

to go. Yeah. Right. I think that's a

23:20

rhetorical question. So There'll be a march

23:22

on Washington with a million

23:24

people working on the justice. I'm very worried about, like, January

23:26

sixth type things. And then we --

23:28

Mhmm. -- some people on the left will say, not ridiculously,

23:30

well, wait a second. We can't just let them

23:32

have the streets. we need to

23:34

show support for the rule of law. For, you know, I mean,

23:36

people haven't quite, I think, internalized how

23:40

ugly as Carol said, the politics could

23:42

be If he's indicted, there's

23:44

a year until he comes to trial,

23:46

it gets uglier and uglier. I just wanted

23:48

to double back quickly on something I thought about

23:50

while preparing for this episode on

23:52

this farm team question in

23:54

Kamala Harris, because we were just talking

23:56

about governors, you know, four years

23:59

ago, we might have predicted that at this point

24:01

we'd be looking at two emerging

24:03

superstars in the party so it seemed

24:06

Beto O'Rourke and Stacey Abrams. And

24:08

they're both now running for

24:10

governor, and it looks like they're going

24:12

to do worse. a lose

24:14

and be do worse than

24:17

four years ago. Notwithstanding

24:19

being very attractive candidates

24:21

in different ways, and

24:24

that's I think another way of

24:26

framing the continuing vitality

24:29

or influence of

24:31

Trumpism if they were going to win

24:33

Tuesday, they would immediately be

24:35

top of the list for

24:37

who displaces Biden and runs.

24:39

And I think it's seems more likely I

24:41

wonder if anyone disagrees that

24:44

they're just footnotes come

24:46

Wednesday. I think there's

24:47

a better democratic bench than people. I

24:49

mean, if Gretchen Whitaker wins in Michigan by six points,

24:51

which Trump is quite likely. Yeah. She will have

24:53

won a state that is that Trump won in twenty

24:56

sixteen and the Biden won by a point and a half

24:58

in twenty twenty. pretty glad to say, and this is where I think

25:00

the Biden people are slightly in a bubble. They

25:02

think he's the only one that could be Trump. Well,

25:04

Whitmer's gonna win in Michigan by

25:06

six points. it's not a presidential race and

25:08

her opponents not Trump understand that. But

25:10

in principle, if the

25:12

governor will have won in the same

25:14

elections by a bigger margin, by

25:16

Josh Appear. I was gonna win Pennsylvania by

25:18

ten points now. Mastriano is again weaker than

25:20

Trump. But he will have won Pennsylvania. I think

25:22

people are underestimating slightly the

25:24

effect of election night itself. If Ryan wins in

25:26

Ohio, which I think is sort of one in three, one

25:28

in four, winning Ohio state

25:31

by lost by eight points. So I not that

25:33

any of those people necessarily would

25:35

be the leading presidential candidate

25:37

right away. I mean, but but I think

25:39

the the notion of Biden's And

25:41

I said this is someone who supported Biden

25:44

enthusiastically in twenty twenty. So III like a lot

25:46

of what he's done as president, but the notion that

25:48

Biden is the only one who can be Trump. I mean,

25:50

he he beat him So, okay. He he beat him in Hillary

25:52

Clinton Law, so that's a fact. But I think and

25:54

I'm wondering when they do if they start to impose incidentally.

25:56

Are we so sure that a Buttigieg

25:58

whitler ticket isn't as strong as a Biden

26:00

Harris ticket against Trump. I'm not

26:03

sure of that, actually. So originally see what they

26:05

find when they started doing these polls. And again,

26:07

I think everyone's been quiet as they should have been

26:09

if you're a Democrat for the last two months

26:11

basically about Biden and, you know, running

26:13

again and everyone's on board. But I do think that

26:15

will change very quickly. after

26:17

Tuesday. I agree.

26:18

I think there are lots to see

26:20

on both sides. I think you're

26:22

gonna see some Republicans hopefully,

26:24

sane Republicans who are gonna win, who are suddenly

26:26

gonna become much more

26:28

attractive. Maybe nobody

26:29

can overcome Trump within the

26:32

Republican app there is no Republican

26:34

party. There's the cult of Trump, but they

26:36

control the label right now and they

26:38

control the official process. But there're gonna be

26:40

other opportunities to

26:41

get people on the ballot and to

26:44

be able to put together a fusion

26:46

ticket. The way the problem solvers are

26:48

trying to do, their focus right

26:50

now if somebody like an Evan McMullen were

26:52

able to pull it out in Utah, I'm

26:54

afraid that polls show that that's not

26:56

gonna happen, but, you know, there's an

26:59

independent who will can

27:01

win in a solidly Republican

27:03

state, but we'll see. Bill's absolutely right. There there's

27:05

so much we don't know that we will find out

27:07

after the election of who's I mean, Carol,

27:09

I think you've probably got to achieve that too.

27:12

Yeah. That was it's interesting the

27:14

Whitmer, Shapiro. Those are not names

27:16

that are currently in that exercise

27:18

that the president does with people he's

27:20

trying to convince that he's the best

27:22

person to run against Trump.

27:24

And if you add them to the

27:26

mix, particularly after Tuesday, it'll be interesting

27:28

to see they play because

27:30

one of the problems I talk when you I

27:32

talk to Democrats, the Democrats raise

27:35

is Kamala Harris. she's

27:37

seen as the heir apparent,

27:39

does the president have to get

27:41

behind

27:41

her? And what does that look like? And it

27:43

creates a

27:44

lot of consternation among Democrats

27:46

who that she's just not very good

27:47

as a candidate. She's she's not

27:50

out there. She doesn't connect with the

27:52

American people in a way that that they

27:53

feel nominee is gonna need to do in order to

27:55

be Trump and doesn't speak just voters

27:58

that you may be able to peel away

27:59

from Trump or anyone

28:02

who is running and wins the

28:04

Republican nomination is still in the mold

28:06

of Trump. So if you

28:08

add those other names into

28:10

the mix, I'd

28:11

be curious to see how that

28:12

shakes out and what the president and his team

28:14

have to say about it. And just one last

28:16

point on this. It's often like

28:18

someone who runs first who's a bit of a sacrificial lamb and, you

28:20

know, Gene McCarthy to Bobby Kennedy if you

28:22

wanna for us, ulcers, if you wanna think of

28:24

a model for how this sometimes

28:26

works. And I mean, Frisker wants to run-in a

28:28

little while. I don't think school has president of the United States,

28:30

but he's a billionaire. And he's put a decent governor,

28:33

and he could run. And it's just say And Newsom Newsom

28:35

really wants to run and it's not

28:37

quite my taste, but he is a capable politician

28:39

and he's the governor of California,

28:41

which is not nothing Polish

28:43

and cut cut color out of the peripheral real western run. He's also wealthy.

28:45

That part will help because Biden will have

28:47

the apparatus behind him. I mean, these people aren't gonna

28:49

run against Biden. For me, the

28:51

big question is on November fifteenth, do they start

28:53

to say, you know, I'm spec

28:56

president buying a wonderful job, and of course, if

28:58

you want different story. But I think it's important

29:00

that we all begin to think about

29:02

generational change and governors, governors

29:04

actually have the usual governor pitch they can

29:06

make. I think the Biden team's kitting

29:08

themselves a little. If they think that

29:10

because everyone that who's in Washington,

29:12

basically, who's a good friend of Ron Klein and Anita

29:14

Todd, and and Biden himself and

29:16

they've known them for thirty years because everyone is telling it

29:18

will serve you as you decide to go again, of course,

29:20

everyone's gonna recede. I don't think it's gonna

29:22

quite feel like that. I'm not saying they're gonna

29:24

run, you know, but I I think they'll be much

29:26

more people sticking their heads up and

29:28

floating ideas about isn't it

29:30

time for someone to someone for a fresh face, and

29:32

that could have an interesting dynamic of its

29:34

own. The fresh face is

29:35

gonna be a thing -- Yeah. -- on

29:37

Wednesday. Alright.

29:44

It's time now for our

29:46

sidebar feature where we explain an

29:48

important concept in the current news

29:51

cycle that isn't necessarily explained

29:53

in the news. And today,

29:55

We're gonna talk about the right to

29:58

travel. A constitutional concept

30:00

that has really come to the

30:02

fore with the supreme court's

30:04

decision over ruling Roe versus

30:06

Wade. Because the question comes up,

30:08

what about someone who wants

30:10

to go from her state

30:13

that precludes or

30:15

strictly regulates an abortion to

30:17

another state. Can her state

30:19

forbid that? And

30:21

is there a constitutional right

30:23

to do it as justice

30:26

Kavanaugh in the dov's case

30:28

suggested there might be in

30:30

the right to travel.

30:32

So that's what we're going to quickly

30:34

explore the right to travel and

30:36

to do it. Very pleased to welcome

30:39

Julie Anne Emery, a

30:41

film and TV actress best known

30:43

for her role as Betsy

30:45

Kesselman in Better Call

30:47

Saul. She's also in the movie's hitch and

30:50

gifted, and the TV shows, preacher

30:52

and Bosch, among many

30:55

others. began her career

30:57

on stage as a cast member of

30:59

musicals like bye

31:01

bye birdie and a funny thing

31:03

happened on the way to the

31:05

forum. So I give you Julian Emery on

31:07

the right to travel.

31:09

Can a state

31:11

prevented residents from traveling to another

31:13

state to access abortion care.

31:15

In his concurring

31:16

opinion in Dobbs v Jackson women's

31:18

health, the Supreme Court case

31:21

overruled Roe v Wade. Just as

31:23

Kavanaugh expressed that no state may

31:25

bar its residents from traveling to another

31:27

state to obtain an abortion. Cavanaugh

31:29

opined that the position was not

31:31

especially difficult as a constitutional matter.

31:34

But what provision provides that right?

31:36

and does it clearly protect travel for abortion

31:39

care? Just as Kavanaugh

31:41

cited, a constitutional right to

31:43

interstate travel. Much like abortion, the

31:45

right to travel is nowhere mentioned in the

31:47

constitution, but the

31:48

court has recognized the right as encompassing

31:50

at least three components. First,

31:52

at

31:52

its most basic, the right prohibits

31:55

any state from simply borrowing out of state

31:57

citizens from entering its territory.

32:00

Second,

32:00

the right

32:01

to travel guarantees out of state citizens

32:03

are entitled to all privileges

32:05

and immunities of citizens in

32:07

the several states. Although

32:08

clarity is lacking as to what exactly

32:11

that provision conveys, given the

32:13

court's holding in dobs, the

32:15

privileges and immunities are unlikely to

32:17

include a to an out of state

32:19

abortion. That leaves the third component

32:21

of the right to travel, which provides any

32:23

US citizen the right to become a citizen

32:25

of any state on the same footing as

32:27

that state's current residents. This aspect

32:29

of the right permits persons

32:31

to move to a state, establish residency,

32:33

and thereby become eligible for

32:35

legal benefits like less expensive

32:37

college tuition. Importantly,

32:39

however, the guarantee

32:41

of equal treatment is only among

32:43

residents, not those simply entering

32:45

the state temporarily. That's why to

32:48

secure a Vegas divorce, you have to

32:50

remain in Nevada long enough to establish

32:52

state residency. This

32:53

third component, like the other aspects of

32:55

the right to state travel wouldn't

32:58

seem to confer a right to go to

33:00

another state for a brief time to receive

33:02

medical services. There's an even

33:04

bigger problem with justice Kavanaugh's

33:06

analysis. The real question is not

33:08

whether one can travel to attain an

33:10

abortion in another state, but whether

33:12

the right to travel restrains the woman's

33:14

home state from imposing punishment after

33:17

she returns. Even

33:19

if the right to travel safeguards the

33:21

ability to get an abortion in another

33:23

state, it

33:23

doesn't follow that the home state

33:26

couldn't impose criminal charges. Justice

33:27

Kavanaugh is at the center of the new conservative

33:29

court. He votes in

33:31

the majority and up to ninety percent

33:33

of the court's cases. If

33:35

he believes it is not especially difficult

33:37

to conclude that women who travel outside

33:39

their home state to obtain an abortion

33:41

are constitutionally protected, That

33:44

in and of itself might point to the

33:46

court's recognition of such a right, but

33:48

it is

33:49

far from the established

33:51

doctrine. For talking feds, I'm

33:53

Julianne Emery. Thank you

33:55

very much Julianne Emery

33:58

for explaining the right

33:59

to travel You can see

34:02

Julie now playing a healthcare

34:04

provider in the aftermath of

34:07

Hurricane Katrina in five days

34:09

at Memorial out now on

34:11

Apple TV plus.

34:16

Alright. It is now time

34:18

for a spirited debate brought

34:20

to you by our sponsor,

34:23

Total Wine, and More. Each

34:26

episode, you'll be hearing an expert talk about

34:29

the pros and cons of a

34:31

particular issue in the world of

34:33

wine, spirit, and beverages.

34:36

Thank you,

34:36

Ari. In today's spirit of debate, we envalled the truth

34:38

about wine. Is there really a right or

34:41

a wrong way to enjoy it? wine

34:43

drinkers near and far have lived by a certain

34:45

set of written yet unofficial rules

34:48

to follow, particularly when it comes to

34:50

pairing wine and food. You've heard a couple of

34:52

them before. White wine pears with

34:54

seafood, red wine pears with big old

34:56

juicy steaks. And while we like to

34:58

think of these more as guidelines

35:00

than rules, Some suggestions actually do serve a higher

35:02

purpose to help your wine get the most from your

35:04

dish and vice versa. One

35:06

pairing that's not quite as obvious

35:08

involves tannins.

35:10

Tannins are the dryness that you taste and feel in wine.

35:12

They come from grape seeds,

35:14

skin, or oat barrels. Traditionally,

35:16

high canon wines and spicy foods

35:19

don't pair well together. The dry components of the

35:22

wine become more pronounced with

35:24

spice, which makes the food itself

35:26

taste even hotter than it

35:28

actually is. From drinking red wine with fish to white wine with

35:30

beef, we say you do you.

35:32

But there is one no no that

35:34

we wholeheartedly

35:36

live by. Always, yes,

35:38

always hold your glass by the

35:40

stem and not the bulb. And there are

35:42

a few reasons why. Putting your warm hands

35:44

on the bulb transfers unnecessary heat to

35:47

the one. As wine warms up, it

35:49

will become off balance and you will taste

35:51

the alcohol more and more. Not

35:53

to mention, you can easily avoid smudges to your beautiful

35:55

glassware. To truly enjoy wine, you can never

35:57

go wrong, pairing the wonderful selection

35:59

and helpful guides

36:02

a total wine and

36:04

more. Cheers. And remember,

36:05

always think interesting, drink interesting. Thanks

36:07

to our friends

36:10

at total one and more for today's a spirited

36:13

debate. Alright. This is

36:14

on the

36:15

clear eyed plan and even

36:17

if it is more doom and gloom, but I just wanted to

36:20

follow-up a couple mentions

36:22

already of

36:24

the remarkable state of

36:26

political violence we've been

36:28

seeing and then might proliferate.

36:30

Governor Whitman, after the

36:32

attack on Paul

36:34

Pelosi, you tweet it

36:36

out. Let there be no

36:38

doubt language shapes behavior.

36:40

Can you elaborate or

36:42

explain what you meant by that? tour.

36:44

I mean, we've been hearing for so long now. We've been pitted

36:47

against one another. If you don't agree with

36:49

somebody, they're your enemy. They're not just someone

36:51

else, a different opinion. They're your

36:54

enemy. and they're evil. Because so much of this now is being

36:56

framed in a way that sounds

36:58

almost biblical with this evil

37:02

people. And if you're evil, well, I can't

37:04

possibly support you. And frankly, I've

37:06

got to take

37:06

you out. And they've been encouraged to

37:08

do that. And the former president

37:11

the ex president. Excuse me. He's ex because he

37:13

was defeated. He's not former Dana. He's

37:15

not the former president. He's

37:18

the ex president. at January

37:20

six, the way he told them, we'll go

37:22

home, but we love you. And we've got

37:24

to fight. We've got to continue to fight

37:26

you. And before the rally, and then

37:28

with Rudy Giuliani and all the other crazies he had around

37:31

him who were encouraging people to

37:33

act out physically at out.

37:35

And when he did nothing to stop it when he

37:37

knew how violent it was getting, there are

37:39

people out there who are not as stable

37:41

as one would hope and they hear

37:43

this that's the call. That's not even a a

37:45

dog whistle. That's pretty clear to me

37:48

that this

37:50

is what they want us to do, and And

37:52

fellow was obviously looking for Nancy

37:54

Pelosi when they broke into the

37:56

capital, it

37:58

was Nancy, Nancy, where are you?

37:59

Scary scary stuff. I happen to

38:02

think, and I don't know, Carol, you or or

38:04

Billy, you might think differently, but

38:06

had any any member of

38:08

congress, Republican or Democrat,

38:10

gotten into the hands of that mob. They wouldn't have known

38:12

where they were Republican or Democrat. They just would

38:14

have beaten them badly.

38:16

Can I put it that way? I don't think they

38:18

were that discerning once they got in there. They

38:20

just want to lay their hands on

38:22

people. And I'm afraid this is

38:24

what we're going to see, but clearly it's

38:26

been the language. It's been made

38:28

acceptable in mainstream. And

38:30

so for those people, who are listening for it,

38:32

those people who want it, they don't have to listen hard

38:34

to get the message that it's okay

38:36

to go out and do this stuff. And

38:38

to

38:38

have those Republicans who didn't respond right

38:40

away who started to make a joke of it. You just

38:42

want to shake your head and say, you know, sometime

38:44

this could go the other way and

38:46

you might be the targets. You

38:48

might not like it so much then.

38:50

I think it's essential not simply to

38:52

condemn in a kind of moral

38:55

way, but to portray these

38:57

people as pathetic lowest of

39:00

the low. What's it gonna take?

39:02

It's not like, well,

39:04

completely excise crazy rhetoric But

39:07

what's it gonna take to

39:10

not think that people are gonna be acting

39:12

out on any given day? Well, I

39:13

think

39:14

you're gonna have to hold people accountable

39:16

and not just the people that are out on the street.

39:18

For instance, at states United that

39:20

I co chair -- Right. -- as well

39:22

as as forward party

39:24

we've reached out to the California bar on more than one occasion about

39:27

John Eastman. Because

39:28

John Eastman as a

39:29

respected in quotes, but as one of

39:31

the president's lawyers, said

39:34

some outrageous things and gave advice that was

39:36

clearly not legal, and he should be

39:38

held accountable. And I think that has to

39:40

happen

39:40

up and down the line, not just to

39:43

the people who actually are on the street, but the people who are

39:45

giving them those messages, that it's okay to

39:48

do this stuff. We need to

39:49

get serious about that and say nobody is above

39:51

the law. I believe that. And if

39:53

it's gonna get ugly because you hold some of these

39:56

people accountable, so be I'd rather go

39:58

down fighting for the

39:59

rule of law in our

40:02

democracy, then saying, well, we will just make things nice for a while

40:04

and and this will all go away because it's not it's

40:06

not gonna go away in the tone.

40:08

Well, to that

40:09

effect, you know, if

40:11

you look at just in Washington, now they've tried to deal with

40:13

it. If you take the January sixth committee, the

40:16

lesson has been for the Liz

40:18

Cheney's of the

40:20

world that you just lose,

40:20

and you're out of a job if you try to

40:23

hold people accountable. And

40:24

the January sixth committee, it's

40:26

one of the things if the

40:28

Republicans take the house, it'll

40:29

just be disbanded. So they'll have a final report. They'll probably have

40:31

a final hearing, but that's gonna be

40:34

jammed

40:34

into the lame

40:36

ducks session, and then it's gone.

40:38

And so

40:38

from Congress's perspective, which was under attack,

40:41

physically and literally, there was

40:43

no accountability, really. There's these

40:46

hearings, but they've been seen as partisan. The country's very divided

40:48

on them to the extent that

40:49

anyone paid attention to them. I mean,

40:51

they're at least

40:52

early people who

40:53

storm the capital and are going to jail,

40:55

a lot of them. It seems like -- That's true. --

40:57

that's that's good. But that's about it. I mean, honestly, there

40:59

are a lot of tough decisions to make about prosecuting

41:01

people, Harry, those at this side too, and I

41:03

really am not critical to DOJ or others in this case. But when I came to Washington eighty

41:05

five, they gave us little speeches, of course, and I was in

41:07

the education department, and then in the White House, they denied

41:10

about, you

41:12

know, our ethics of obligations and various obligations. And one of

41:14

the things that was sort of said and

41:16

passing and I hope I didn't need to hear it, but

41:18

it was kind of

41:20

racing was you know, if you

41:22

break these laws, you could go to

41:24

jail. HR parliament and John

41:26

Mitchell and John Ericlekman and

41:28

a lot of people spent time

41:30

in jail. after breaking laws. And when you think about them from an incident, were they

41:32

really worse than what Mark Meadows did as

41:34

White House chief of staff? Was it worse than

41:36

what other

41:38

people did? Now some people in the White House, you could argue they were right to stay there because

41:40

they made things less bad than they might have been and I

41:42

and I respect that. But there were some who clearly were just

41:44

going along.

41:46

as the governor says, I mean, and and in some violence and

41:48

other cases encouraging legality, all those are

41:51

people who signed those elector Slates.

41:54

they knew what they were doing. They didn't gee, I'm confused.

41:56

I might have to be an elector, you know? Maybe

41:58

I'll be judged a winner, and I just

41:59

better sign this thing to what they were doing. It was

42:02

all part of an attempt done over during the

42:04

election. They haven't gone to jail. The people

42:06

who encouraged them to sign those haven't gone to

42:08

jail. Few people sort of

42:10

disbarred or sort of legal

42:12

trouble, you know, Muji Juliani, but

42:14

not a whole lot on it. And a lot of them are

42:16

doing very, very well.

42:17

MacroWorld has a huge infrastructure.

42:19

of, you know, think tanks and activist groups

42:21

and consulting contracts and

42:24

work and stuff. That means an awful lot of

42:26

people who behave pretty badly,

42:28

I think, there's not been much accountability, I guess, that I don't wanna seem like I'm plugged to

42:30

her seat at what you go jail or anything like that. Quite the

42:32

contrary. I think one of the good things about our tradition is we

42:34

tend not

42:36

to cross you people in the free

42:38

proceeding administration and so forth. It's for legitimate or even questionable decisions

42:40

they made. But there's been too

42:42

many people have done have knowingly

42:46

try to do illegal things or encourage others to do illegal things and

42:49

basically have skated free. And

42:51

the result of that is more people continue with

42:53

the total years

42:56

possible rhetoric. Now maybe some, like with

42:58

Alex Jones, maybe at some point, one

43:00

of these defamation suits works. And

43:03

that's a very useful lesson. And maybe that

43:05

as having some effect, I hope it is. But, you

43:07

know, that he can't just say the things

43:09

he said when little kids

43:11

are killed and school shooting, but it's hard with the first amendment all

43:13

this. I understand that. But the Trump indictment, I

43:16

would be a big

43:18

moment, obviously. pretty hard after

43:20

the January sixth committee to not

43:22

and after, especially, yeah, in my view, after what the

43:24

documents tomorrow, I go and stuff, which I haven't been

43:27

governor wasn't executive ranch and knowing what the normal rules

43:29

are that's so unbelievably over the top what

43:32

he did that to decide not to

43:34

prosecute is a pretty shocking thing

43:36

at this point would be in my

43:38

view. But it will be

43:40

controversial. I'll just

43:41

say, even if that happens and

43:43

I've talked to many people

43:46

including all three last week who have

43:48

become persuaded that it'll happen.

43:50

But your point is very well taken. I

43:52

just wrote a piece about it that

43:54

even if Trump for whatever reason doesn't get frustrated. The

43:56

hallow mens and Erlik mens need to.

43:58

And I think that is really happening

44:00

and starting

44:02

with Mark managed that circle at is at least getting

44:04

DOJ scrutiny. And as you say,

44:06

they certainly deserve from

44:08

what we know to be prosecuted.

44:12

I wanted to ask from what you just raised in your nineteen eighty five

44:14

point bill and the governor. I'm

44:16

thinking of the same

44:18

Republican party when I was

44:21

younger. And Ronald

44:24

Reagan, he was sunny morning

44:26

in America and the like. On the

44:28

other hand, you know,

44:30

Reagan famously was. Government

44:32

is the problem. And I

44:34

just wonder how you feel as representatives

44:36

of a previously sane party

44:39

do you see today's extremism

44:41

as in any way sort

44:43

of an outgrowth or

44:45

corruption of that now, you know, disappeared message?

44:47

Do you see a through line in

44:50

the sort of hostility to government

44:52

or any

44:54

anything else? I think

44:55

it started long before Ron O'Regan. Hospitality,

44:58

the government, that's one of the things he ran on.

45:00

He said that because he

45:02

could see that people had a real

45:04

distrust. Even then, the political

45:06

parties are starting to do what

45:08

they're now absolutely doing

45:10

which is taking any issue and

45:12

making it political and

45:13

not trying to solve problems. They'd rather

45:15

have the issue in order to beat out the other

45:17

side over the head with it. and

45:19

get their base out. It's not

45:22

doing a good service to the American people, I

45:24

guess, is the nicest way to say it because

45:26

problems are not being solved. but he could see

45:28

that. So it was happening before.

45:30

He saw it with with people who would get

45:32

together to protest big government

45:34

and government overspending. I don't

45:36

think it happened with FDR. I'm not old enough to remember that, so I don't

45:38

know. But I know there were a lot of

45:40

people, Republicans, particularly, who were very

45:42

upset with

45:44

the growth of government. And and so it's been there. It's just

45:46

that Trump was brilliant at

45:49

finally putting into words what

45:51

so many people were feeling. so

45:54

many people particularly in the middle of the country were feeling, not on the coast

45:56

so much, but in the middle of the feeling in

45:59

the country

45:59

that government wasn't solving

46:02

their problems. I didn't care about

46:04

them. It was corrupt.

46:05

They just talked to each

46:07

other. The two parties refused to

46:08

work together to get anything done. And they wanted

46:11

someone who was just gonna blow the whole thing this

46:13

mother reams and start all over

46:16

again. without really contemplating what that might look like or

46:18

what that would involve or what the

46:20

fallout from something like that would be.

46:23

So I I really do think and, you know,

46:25

Bill, certainly, you can correct me on this and and tell

46:27

me what you've seen enough of it. I think it

46:30

happened long before Ronald

46:32

Reagan. It started. He capitalized on it to a degree. I

46:34

mean, Barry Goldwater, to my

46:36

mind, was the first

46:38

presidential candidate who took

46:40

a vote that to me

46:42

was totally against what he really believed when

46:44

he voted against the civil rights act because

46:46

he had integrated the

46:48

family business and he did it

46:50

specifically to get those southern states, oh, it's already got.

46:52

And Nixon with a southern

46:54

strategy, right there, you have starting the

46:56

dividing the

46:58

country. and the fear of big government exacerbation

47:00

of of those dislikes just

47:02

was part of that overall effort.

47:04

We're gonna now find our and

47:08

gonna make a real effort to

47:10

divide them, to make sure

47:11

that we've staked out our people and leave

47:13

the others behind.

47:15

Yeah. I mean, I think partnership

47:16

is building a long time and it's now

47:18

become hyperpartnership and actually it's

47:20

now become polarization and of what do

47:23

they call it? effective polarization, which means you really even

47:25

hate the other side more than you like your own.

47:27

So I think it's thirty, forty years of that.

47:29

And that's something that's due to

47:31

things beyond anyone's control, geographic sorting, socioeconomic things. But

47:34

look, I think it was once there were

47:36

seeds that were responsible in

47:38

extreme that once said

47:40

in Spanish from Reagan's inaugural speech. It's a good example.

47:42

Candidates always were a little more demagoegetic than

47:44

presidents. But Trump is the first president

47:46

as president.

47:48

to be relentlessly demigodgic and divisive. I mean,

47:50

Reagan wasn't once he was president. Of

47:52

course, he argued against the democratic. house

47:56

in the Democratic congress. But he also famously cut deals

47:58

with tip O'Neil and tried to get

48:00

support for his foreign policy from democrats

48:04

and foreign policy and so forth. And it

48:06

was just such a different world and and

48:08

still one felt that it's such such as

48:10

what you got into office. that

48:12

you should try to govern effectively and that meant working across the

48:14

island. The Republican Party had plenty of

48:16

moderate to cover with him being one

48:18

of them who, you know, were slighted

48:21

at by the conservatives certainly and not loved

48:23

perhaps, but everyone's happy to have. He was governor of

48:25

New Jersey even if you were different from a

48:28

conservative governor somewhere in the rest of the country, maybe

48:30

not everyone, but most people and then you, you

48:32

know, got a push, wanted to have a broad

48:34

cabinet. So you were in the cabinet as well as some people

48:36

wore from the right,

48:38

like Ashcroft, It was a very different mood in that respect. And to be fair to the

48:40

public parties, there was a real

48:42

exclusion of some people who were bigoted and buy it.

48:44

I mean, Buchanan was basically kicked out of

48:46

the party Bob Dole said at the

48:48

ninety six convention if you don't believe

48:50

in welcoming all faiths

48:52

and all groups to this party. The

48:54

exit signs are more clearly and you should

48:56

leave. You know, mean, so that's

48:58

still pretty different, I would say. So I think

49:00

it's fair to say that people like me probably

49:02

underestimated some of those elements in

49:04

the party especially race, I would say. The degree of

49:06

toxicity is still around that.

49:08

But four years if someone is

49:10

president making it all worse, it's okay. That

49:12

was already

49:14

bad. the party going along with it was even worse. Honestly, it was if you had a president

49:16

who was just kind of alone with Mitch McConnell

49:18

and Paul Ryan of this thing. Well, no, that's

49:20

not we're not gonna go along with that,

49:22

but that was not the mood, obviously, after the first

49:24

two months. Then January sixth happens, and then for

49:26

thirty six hours, it's like, okay. Maybe they're

49:28

finally gonna say this is unacceptable.

49:30

And now that turned out not to be the case. And then sort of,

49:32

well, finally, certainly the Republic Coverage Association led

49:34

by Doug Doucie is not gonna spend eleven

49:37

million dollars for Carrie Lake. whom

49:39

he himself said in the primary he was sort of

49:42

unacceptable and Right. Portman is pro Ukraine,

49:44

but he's supporting JD Vance and it's

49:46

just a case after case of

49:48

this. Right? and so the degree to which the

49:50

capitulation of the establishment to the

49:52

demagogues is very different from having a party that

49:54

has an establishment with

49:56

some demagogues sort of on the

49:58

side here. That's not great, but it's a

50:00

very different dynamic that we'd have

50:02

today, I think. It's not just the

50:03

hyperpartisanship, but there's this

50:06

sort of dark and curdled quality of

50:08

Trump so deeply Saturn

50:10

on as opposed to, you know,

50:14

Reagan's even as he was bashing the other side, he was upbeat

50:16

and optimistic about it. Yeah. No. That's

50:18

right. And part of that is,

50:21

you know,

50:22

that's Trump,

50:23

and part of that is tapping into a sentiment that's

50:25

in the country. And the other

50:27

layer of this is that

50:29

the disconnect between people

50:33

in the country and people in Washington has

50:35

just gotten worse over time.

50:37

And

50:37

there's in the country,

50:40

you know,

50:42

I've from

50:42

Levittown, Pennsylvania. It's a suburb of Philly. My family's

50:44

all still there. You have to go Philly's

50:46

and eagles. When you talk to

50:49

friends I went to high

50:51

school with. They don't pay as close of attention,

50:52

obviously. But they just feel

50:54

like people watching dinner just a bunch

50:57

of suits who are doing

50:59

things that are benefiting themselves. There's no

51:01

connection. There's no community

51:04

there. And that on

51:06

top of economic hardships that

51:08

have taken place, you know, changes

51:10

just generally in the

51:12

way that people work and make money. All of those

51:14

things are just an added

51:16

layer that allow this kind of

51:18

sentiment and allowed

51:20

somebody like former president

51:22

Trump to be elevated to

51:24

the extent that he was and

51:26

still is. And that's not getting

51:28

better. And that's

51:30

not just Washington politicians. It's also media.

51:32

It's broader. And there's just

51:34

not a connectivity between

51:38

what's happening in Washington and what's happening in the country.

51:40

And so the only reaction to

51:42

that is, like, blow it up, screw

51:44

them. They're not

51:44

doing anything for me. And that's

51:47

that's just the way people feel. Okay.

51:49

I don't

51:50

think we have time to go into it, but

51:52

there a lot of stuff has happened

51:55

on the legal landscape just this week alone, and

51:58

Trump is having to parry

52:00

incoming from and some of it very

52:02

effective. His

52:04

Trump Organization's gonna now have a monitor. Alan

52:06

Weiselberg is gonna have to testify

52:08

truthfully in the next couple weeks.

52:11

I a quick question that just wondered if especially you

52:14

governor wouldn't even have any thoughts about it. It looks

52:16

like Lindsay Graham needs to testify in

52:18

Fulton County.

52:20

The pattern to date of Trump acolysis been

52:22

delayed, denied, jut jai, but

52:24

when forced to it, take the fifth.

52:27

Is that something for a sitting senator

52:30

that you think just has two

52:32

big political consequences?

52:34

Is it a different dynamic? Or

52:37

Do you anticipate that he

52:39

can without real cost

52:41

do the same things? I think

52:43

he thinks the cost would be too high if

52:45

he did

52:45

answer the questions. they answered

52:46

them honestly. That that would be the political cause

52:48

to him, so I wouldn't doubt for a second, but

52:50

that he's gonna

52:51

take the fifth wherever he can.

52:53

there's really no downside

52:54

for him in doing that. And there's a

52:56

huge downside for him in telling the truth.

52:58

And he's just been

52:59

elected. And that's why Trump attacks

53:01

these people even your state AG

53:03

in the Fulton County DA, I think,

53:05

is there a time limit. It's not, you know, we all look

53:07

at it and think this is inappropriate

53:09

and also it's foolish because they'll be more angry at it or something. That's not what

53:11

you do if you're a if you're a defense lawyer, you tell

53:13

your client to be quiet. But that's true. It's some

53:16

legal sense, but it's not true politically if

53:18

they know what

53:20

they're doing. if they describe you know, they'll survive politically if

53:22

they attack those people. And incidentally, they're also

53:24

contaminating whatever you guys say in the

53:26

legal business, the

53:28

country pool. Yeah. Right? Which is quite a jury pool in Georgia, by the

53:30

way. Hold on. Yeah. I'm worried. I mean, I do

53:32

understand the America on resuscitation

53:34

because is is it better if

53:36

he does a very serious

53:38

indictment, very well justified. They go to

53:40

trial. They get the indictment. They go to trial.

53:42

They get to all the obstacles. God knows how

53:44

many Trump will put up. and then it's a

53:46

jury, which is not an

53:48

inconceivable proposition. Right? And it's a

53:50

defeat for sure if it happened. And I think

53:52

if he's thinking of through seriously the sea. That's not good for the country. So maybe we

53:54

shouldn't do it. So I I think it's a very tough

53:56

situation where countries got itself into at

53:58

this point.

54:00

And

54:00

something that strikes me from all of you is just

54:02

the world's gonna look maybe really

54:04

different by the next talking fans. But

54:06

we are now just about out

54:10

of time Have one minute for our talking five final

54:12

feature, and today's question,

54:14

how long will Elon Musk

54:18

own Twitter? Anybody, five

54:20

words, or fewer. Until

54:22

there's a

54:22

new buyer. Mhmm. Too

54:24

long. Until

54:25

he finds

54:26

something else to do. Yeah.

54:29

And I I'm gonna

54:31

say

54:31

too long, whatever it

54:34

is. We

54:36

are

54:37

out of time. Thank

54:39

you very much to Carol Bill and Governor Whitman, and thank

54:41

you very much listeners for tuning

54:43

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our contributing writers, production assistance by Laurel Feltner,

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Colenitano, Emma Maynard,

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and David Emmett. Thanks

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very much to Julie Anne Emery for

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explaining the right to

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travel and its

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potential application to

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abortion jurisprudence after

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dogs. Our gratitude as

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always to the amazing

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his music. Talking fans is a production of

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Harry Litman. talk

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to you

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John

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called GABEFEST. Stephen Colbert, a listener, said that

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our views, renounce others, announce

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some, and more than occasionally

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arrive at new beliefs. So check out

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SLAIT's political gap fast with Emily Bazinet of The New

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York Times Magazine, David Platz of

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