0:09

Hello and welcome to Talking Property,

0:12

our CBRE podcast series where

0:14

our team of experts, our clients, and

0:16

industry specialists share insights into

0:18

the way we live, work, and invest

0:21

through the lens of commercial real estate. I'm

0:24

Sujata , Director of CBRE's Supplier

0:26

Diversity and Sustainable Procurement Program,

0:29

and I'm your host for this latest Talking Property

0:31

episode. I would like to

0:33

start today by acknowledging the traditional

0:36

custodians of the many lands on which we

0:38

are recording today's podcast and

0:40

pay my respects to elders past and

0:43

present. And as I was reflecting

0:45

on the topic of today's Talking Property,

0:47

Indigenous business, I was

0:50

looking into the history of Aboriginal

0:52

and Torres Strait Islander business and trade

0:54

in Australia. It's a history

0:56

that predates colonisation, where

0:59

Indigenous people forged trade routes across

1:01

vast networks with our neighbors

1:03

in Asia. And today that

1:05

trade sector looks a little bit different, but

1:07

just as vibrant. And we will be

1:09

talking about Indigenous business partnerships,

1:12

the growth in the Indigenous business sector,

1:15

the impact that these businesses are having,

1:17

especially in creating better economic

1:20

outcomes for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander

1:22

people. And importantly, how

1:24

the property sector can better engage

1:27

and support our diverse business partners.

1:30

To explore this, I am

1:32

delighted to be joined today by

1:34

Michael O’Loughlin, the Managing Director

1:37

of ARA Indigenous Services; Rohan Tobler-Williams,

1:39

the General Manager at ARA; and

1:42

Shane Jacobs, the Managing Director of

1:44

Orana Services. CBRE, has

1:48

had the pleasure of working with ARA

1:51

and Orana for the past four years.

1:53

And I am incredibly pleased to

1:55

have the three of you join with me today.

1:58

So welcome to the podcast.

2:00

Thanks Sujata.

2:03

Let's start at the beginning. So,

2:06

Michael, Rohan, Shane , if

2:08

you could talk a little bit about your

2:11

businesses and career journeys to

2:13

date, that would be great. And Shane, I might

2:15

start with you because you've

2:18

probably been in business for

2:20

the longest, I'm guessing.

2:22

Yes, well, for me Sujata, it all started - I'm

2:24

a plumber by trade and then I

2:27

just found for myself that I needed to elevate myself

2:30

further up the food chain. So I went back

2:32

to TAFE and I'd done a

2:34

diploma in construction. And

2:36

then from there I went and done my builder's license.

2:39

And this is a journey over about 20

2:40

to 25 years. And

2:42

, I've had different businesses throughout the

2:44

year. Probably had one of the largest plumbing businesses in

2:46

Sydney in the nineties. And

2:49

then, like I said, I needed to elevate myself further up

2:51

the food chain . I wanted to become a head

2:53

contractor. I didn't want to be the subcontractor anymore,

2:56

even though I still play in both fields. We

2:58

prefer to be the head contractor

3:00

and control the supply

3:03

chain a little bit better, not to be part of the supply

3:05

chain, but to control it. And that

3:07

was a business called Plumb AS Plumbing.

3:10

Great name.

3:11

Yes, it was a guy. It was Andrew

3:13

and Shane. So it was actually PLUMB, capital

3:16

A, capital S. So yes, that was that. And

3:19

then I was the managing director at PSG

3:21

Holdings for 10 years with my cousin

3:23

Troy Rugless. And then they

3:25

just moved in the direction that , you know, they

3:27

were moving into more bigger larger project management

3:30

and the larger joint ventures with your Lend Lease and

3:32

your other tier one facilities

3:35

management businesses. So I

3:38

decided , I moved on , I wanted to keep making noise on

3:40

jobs. I wanted to still play the project manager. So

3:42

we started up 10 years ago,

3:44

we started up Orana services and

3:47

it's a multi-trade. Our key clients

3:49

are you guys, of course, the CBRE, education,

3:52

the banking sector, and

3:55

justice. So we sort of play in

3:57

that field. And yes, that's

3:59

where we are today. And mate, we've probably got

4:01

a staff of a hundred , maybe, 40

4:03

of them Aboriginal men and women, which

4:05

we're very, very proud of. But the

4:08

thing we are really, really proud of is our , we've

4:11

probably got a 60% supply chain spend, you

4:14

know. And we've just, like I said, we just finished a

4:16

job in town for you guys with New South

4:18

Wales Place and ARA

4:20

Indigenous removed all the fire

4:23

service for us. So it worked out good. Thanks,

4:26

Mickey .

4:29

There's a few things I want to start getting around to. Mick, Rowan, what

4:33

about yourself? You've had a slightly different

4:36

path.

4:37

Yes, I might just start Rowan then you can jump

4:39

in. But , yes, Michael

4:41

O’Loughlin, from

4:44

South Australia. Been in Sydney now living

4:46

on Gadigal country for the last nearly 30

4:49

years. My first profession

4:51

was as a sportsman playing football

4:55

in the AFL for the Sydney Swans over a

4:57

long period of time, was able to forge

4:59

career. And I sort of hung around

5:02

and in Sydney with a dream to almost

5:04

then become an AFL head coach. So

5:07

I was really hellbent on becoming a

5:09

professional sports coach in the AFL system.

5:12

And then my sort of career took a little bit of a

5:14

side detour around business

5:17

and getting to know more about the

5:19

commercial side of the cleaning industry. And our

5:21

bread and butter is we're a cleaning business and

5:23

Shane and Troy and

5:25

what they've been able to do. And certainly my knowledge

5:28

around PSG, they'd been a

5:30

trailblazer in that profession. And

5:32

certainly when I think back now, 10-plus years

5:35

ago, there were probably only

5:37

around about 20 or 30 Aboriginal

5:39

products or businesses and then

5:41

we hit we're , you know , we're 2023. I

5:43

think there's closer to 3,000 Aboriginal

5:46

businesses. So incredible. And

5:48

Shane and Troy play a huge role in that because a

5:51

bit like myself, wanting to become a professional

5:53

sports person as a teenager,

5:56

you have to actually see it to believe it. And

5:59

that's, I guess what those exactly

6:01

the same steps in terms of my forging

6:03

my career in the cleaning industry.

6:06

So I saw what these guys are doing and

6:08

they were very successful. And luckily for me,

6:10

they , you know, they were able to give me some tips and take me

6:12

under their wing a little bit. So for me, that

6:15

inspiration, we have an obligation to be able

6:17

to pass that on to , to our younger generations. And

6:19

I think that's what Aboriginal Torres Strait Islander people do

6:22

really well. You know, we don't just take it and

6:24

take it to the grave with us. We always share our knowledge

6:26

around that. So the commercial cleaning

6:29

business has been incredible for my family and community.

6:31

If you're like Shane , we've grown our business now over

6:34

a number of years, and we're sitting under

6:36

about 90 Aboriginal Torres Strait Islander people

6:38

working within that business. So again,

6:40

really we're really proud of what we've been

6:42

able to do in the community. A lot of

6:44

our sites, we've got representation of our people

6:46

working. Some sites don't have it, but the

6:49

spend is really important. When CBRE

6:52

gives us a role, we're really honest and

6:54

we say, look, we've got access to community

6:57

here, or we've got capability to

6:59

be able to produce the cleaning that you need. And

7:01

if we don't, I think we think we're a really honest business

7:04

to come back to you and say, look, we

7:06

might struggle here. It's probably better to look at someone else

7:08

in our industry. So, but always

7:10

about stories and you know , as you tell,

7:12

I can talk underwater with marbles in

7:14

my mouth, but for me

7:16

it's always been around the stories and the people you surround

7:19

yourself with. And Rohan, who's

7:21

on this call and is our general manager, has

7:23

been a a huge success story for us in our

7:26

business along with a

7:28

lot of others. But one that I guess gives

7:30

me a spring in my step and the thing I'm most proud

7:32

of.

7:35

And Rohan, how did you two meet?

7:42

I met Mick on TV I think. I just had to remind myself

7:44

that I'm on a podcast because I've listened

7:46

to Shane and Mick's stories. Like I've looked up to these

7:48

guys for years. And, you

7:51

know, they were always doing something different

7:53

than what I thought I could ever achieve. And

7:56

then you're sitting on a podcast with them and

7:58

you know, you take looking after Michael O’Loughlin's

8:01

business unit at ARA. So we

8:03

met a few times, but I don't think Mick would've remembered

8:05

me, I was a lot younger. But Michael

8:08

had a role here at ARA Indigenous Services,

8:10

just doing indigenous engagement. My background,

8:13

my first ever gig was a paper boy

8:16

when I was about 11-years-old. And then

8:18

my first full-time gig when I left school before

8:20

the end of year 10 was to be apprentice carpenter.

8:23

So my background's always been in the

8:25

construction industry, but then later on

8:27

in life, it aligned the construction industry

8:29

and our people. And I was doing

8:32

employment programs. So I worked

8:34

at a place called Career Job Ready and that's where I

8:36

met Mick a few times. He'd come down and spoke to

8:38

our students at different events. And

8:41

then I spent sort of from 21

8:43

onwards in senior leadership, predominantly

8:45

in social enterprises. And

8:47

then I went back on the tools for a bit and

8:50

received a phone call from Michael to

8:52

say, "Hey, I've got this position here. Mate, would

8:54

you like to come have a crack with us ?" And I

8:57

wasn't too sure. I was a little bit scared because

9:00

it was a big business and a for-profit business.

9:02

But coming in and spending,

9:04

you know, at least six weeks with Mick, I

9:06

was sold that , you know, ARA and for-profit

9:09

business is where it was at. And it's been a crazy

9:12

journey since then. So we've probably officially

9:14

met in 2020 - October,

9:17

2020, I think it was.

9:18

You've been working at ARA ever

9:21

since?

9:22

Yes. So I started three years ago

9:24

as Indigenous almost four years ago now as

9:26

Indigenous engagement manager. Then went to strategy

9:29

and growth manager to general manager to

9:32

director and shareholder in the business.

9:36

But put the titles aside, it's the

9:38

growth underneath Michael's leadership

9:40

and the people that I get to associate with

9:42

every day . You know, working alongside the

9:45

Shane Jacobs of the world has been my biggest achievement,

9:47

you know, learning from them.

9:49

And Rohan, you just said it about

9:51

Mick and Shane and Mick just said this about Shane

9:53

, but it made me really think of that saying, 'you

9:56

can't be what you don't see'. And

9:59

Shane , you know, having a business in the

10:01

nineties, you were in

10:04

business before a lot of corporates were talking

10:06

about Indigenous businesses

10:08

in the supply chain and Aboriginal and Torres

10:10

Strait Islander businesses. What was that like?

10:14

Well, I started business before

10:16

a lot of these guys were even born. That's the sad thing about it. But

10:21

when I first started in business, you know, like I

10:24

said to you guys the other day, you know what I mean? Because dad's

10:26

got background as a South Pacific Islander, we

10:29

used to tell everyone, but

10:31

in the plumbing business, we used to tell everyone we're

10:34

Hawaiians because if we told

10:36

them we're black fellas , we wouldn't get the work. And

10:38

it's, I'm talking like late

10:40

eighties, you know, it's just what we had

10:42

to do. And then when they met my dad, they thought

10:44

we was Hawaiian, you know what I mean? Because he looks

10:48

like an Islander, you know? And then

10:50

like when all this started to turn around, it

10:52

was so refreshing. Like originally

10:55

PSG was one of the first businesses to join AMPSY,

10:58

one of the first certified suppliers. And

11:00

I could see it was all changing then. Then

11:02

I went onto the board of Supply Nation and

11:05

then I knew, I went back, I said to Rugo, "Mate,

11:07

we've got to get our ducks in a row here, mate". This

11:09

is happening. It's bipartisan in

11:12

government. I said, it's real. I

11:14

said, that's when we started getting our federal accreditation, all

11:16

our ISO accreditations. I said, we need

11:18

to invest in our business mate, because there's

11:21

going to be a lot of opportunity out here. And

11:23

I said, it's, it's going to be our turn to

11:25

get something back and to be able to invest

11:28

in our people and give to our community. And

11:31

that's what we've done. But it was, back in the

11:34

eighties, it was different. It was really different. You didn't,

11:36

you didn't say , well, you sort of did suppress it that you were

11:38

Aboriginal, you know what I mean? And then like the

11:41

dreaded question was you were sitting in a tender meeting , they'd

11:44

asked like, where are you from? You used to dread

11:46

that question, you know what I mean? I used to dread it. I

11:49

used go I've got to make up something here. You

11:51

know what I mean? So I used to say Hawaiian. That

11:53

that was our little journey, but now

11:56

it's turned around , it's unreal. It's great, you know, and

11:58

I think supplier diversity, like

12:00

from every level, from, from your

12:02

boardrooms right down to your people

12:05

that make noise, your labours on your job. It's, you know,

12:07

it brings innovation to an organisation

12:09

and that's what I love about

12:11

it.

12:13

Yes, absolutely. And I'm

12:15

glad we've come at least a little bit of

12:17

a way since then. And you

12:20

were talking about that growth in businesses.

12:23

I mean, you guys were the pioneers. And without businesses

12:25

like yours, we wouldn't be seeing the

12:27

growth that we are now. But I was looking

12:30

at a couple of the stats saying that when, you

12:32

know, Supply Nation, back in 2015, they

12:34

had about 300 odd suppliers

12:36

and now it's over 3,500,

12:39

which is massive. And

12:41

then the other thing that you both mentioned, and

12:43

again, I was looking at some of the stats, was

12:46

that collectively Supply Nation

12:49

businesses employ about 40,000

12:51

people. And of those, over

12:55

14,000 are Aboriginal and

12:57

Torres Strait Islander. So about 36

13:00

odd percent, which is

13:02

an incredible impact. And

13:05

your businesses are both reflective

13:07

of that. Is that something that you think you

13:10

want clients to be mindful of as

13:13

well? Is that that impact and what that looks

13:15

like?

13:16

It is . I mean, I remember sitting

13:18

on advisory panels for government when

13:20

they were talking about, you know, making policies like

13:23

Epic and Alike. The whole big selling point

13:25

was that if you encourage and make

13:27

it possible for Indigenous business and

13:29

someone make the policy mandatory,

13:32

then the reliant on government funding,

13:34

government programs, all

13:36

that type of stuff, that handout mentality

13:39

people used to carry on about would slowly

13:41

evaporate. Because as Aboriginal people,

13:44

we don't do this because we're forced. We don't

13:46

employ our people. Or sometimes

13:48

we go , we're forced to employ our family members - Amy, but

13:52

we don't do it because we're forced. It's

13:54

just naturally who we are. And we are very

13:56

good at making sure that we are always stopping,

14:00

checking our footprints and making sure that community

14:02

are following in behind us. You know, I

14:05

say this all the time, had it not been for Mick and ARA

14:07

Indigenous services, I definitely wouldn't be a general

14:09

manager, not for a business of this

14:11

size. I think the next generation

14:13

will, because they're getting educated well. There's

14:16

been some really good trailblazing programs

14:18

around education, but we're not the educated

14:21

generation. We were the most passionate generation

14:23

and that's how we ended up in leadership. So

14:27

yeah, definitely. And the more

14:29

you give to an Indigenous business, the

14:31

more of that spend target that everybody

14:33

talks about, hits the kitchen tables

14:35

of our community members. You've

14:39

got to visit those big dollar signs that the

14:41

peoples who say "Oh, we spent a hundred million dollars on

14:43

this project". Think about what type

14:45

of food went onto that community's

14:48

table. And that's whether the policy's working or not.

14:50

And in the process we're getting skilled

14:52

, we're taking on leadership roles.

14:54

We, you know, we're being self determined, we're

14:57

participating economically. That's

14:59

what you've got to look for.

15:00

Hey Rohan, do you think the big change coming,

15:03

piggyback on what you said, when it became

15:05

a mandatory spend, that's

15:07

when the ball really started

15:09

rolling and then we found, we

15:11

had tier ones and government

15:13

ringing us. That's when I think

15:15

the change was. When it went from a target spend to

15:17

a mandatory spend and it became the IPP in federal

15:20

government. I think that's when it all changed.

15:23

It definitely changed . It changed when it went

15:25

from, it'd be nice if you try, to

15:28

if you don't, we're going to penalise you. That's

15:30

when I noticed the change come . And the same thing

15:32

happened with employment too. It was please

15:34

put an ad in the paper and that meets the requirement.

15:37

Or we're going to come onto your site and if you don't

15:40

have your 10 Indigenous apprentices, you're

15:42

going to be chopped when it comes to invoicing time. So

15:44

that's when I felt the change really came.

15:47

And then the other part of it was,

15:49

was on our end as Aboriginal people, we had

15:51

to rise to that. Because if we did

15:53

not make that policy or what become

15:56

mandatory really work, it'd been

15:58

taken straight off the table. It would've been, this

16:00

is not working, let's look at something else.

16:03

You know? So we had to rise to that occasion

16:05

and we, I think our people did and we are

16:08

.

16:08

Yes. And I think what we were

16:10

just saying before, we had to make it happen, but

16:13

like we needed someone to fund us also too. And

16:15

for me and for Orana Services,

16:17

IBA's played a massive part in our own business.

16:20

You know, like with bank guarantees, seed

16:23

funding, you know what I mean? Like it's all

16:25

good having these opportunities, but if you can't come up with

16:27

a bank home guarantee, what's the point of having them ? So

16:30

I think holistically now, we're

16:32

not closing a gap, but this procurement

16:34

gap and this gap in the corporate sector

16:37

and us getting work, it is starting to close

16:39

a bit. And I think the corporates

16:41

and government are seeing us as like for like businesses

16:43

now. You know ? And I love when people say

16:45

to me, "What's the struggle an Aboriginal

16:48

business has?" It's the same struggle every other business has. You

16:50

know, retaining staff, cashflow, getting

16:53

the right people in to those that don't do their work. You know, but

16:56

we just don't, as Aboriginal businesses,

16:59

we didn't have the access to the funding.

17:01

But now with the IBA, it's really for us,

17:05

with the opportunities, getting funding has

17:07

changed our business tenfold and tenfold

17:10

quicker too.

17:12

And just really quickly, Shane, there's

17:14

probably people listening who aren't familiar with IBA

17:17

and what they do. Did you want to just give a

17:19

quick introduction?

17:21

Yes . IBA is Indigenous Business Australia, but

17:24

they're our financial institution and

17:26

they help us out with invoice and financing.

17:29

And its criteria to

17:31

get approval is a little bit different. We

17:35

can leverage contracts we've won and

17:37

all that . We've still got to put property up, but they

17:40

understand us when we

17:42

go for a loan. They understand the situation

17:44

that we're in. We're not in generational

17:46

businesses that the grandfathers run,

17:49

you know what I mean? That's got a big bank behind

17:51

them and they've got everything

17:53

all set up. You know, like Rohan

17:56

just said, you know, like, we've had to do all this ourselves

17:58

and you know, we've had to do it through passion

18:01

and just through learning and losing.

18:03

You know, I've learned more through losing

18:05

than anything.

18:07

And that might be a bit

18:09

of a segue into...so, I

18:11

know that we've been working together, or you

18:13

guys have been working with CBRE for almost

18:16

four years now. And I think that journey

18:18

has definitely had some ups and downs.

18:21

So I guess as part of that, and

18:24

Mick I'll ask you first, how

18:26

do you think the property sector can

18:28

better engage with Indigenous businesses?

18:31

And what do you think are some of

18:33

the really critical elements when it comes

18:36

to creating long-term partnerships?

18:39

It's a great question. There's a lot of fantastic

18:42

Aboriginal Torres Strait Islander businesses out there,

18:44

especially in our industry. And

18:46

I think when an FM gets an opportunity

18:49

from a client to approach a business

18:51

like mine or others, is having

18:53

someone, and I don't mean to embarrass you, but someone

18:55

like yourself that's working within

18:58

a large organisation. Because let's

19:00

face it , a lot of things do get lost when

19:02

you have a big organisation. It just, you

19:05

know, things slip and I don't think people mean

19:07

any malice by it , but things do

19:09

get missed and all of a sudden the tenders

19:11

that you thought you were a chance for is gone. And

19:13

you don't see that again. And you have to wait

19:16

another three or four years before that opportunity comes

19:18

up. So being in the

19:20

know of what's going on inside your building

19:22

and the things that you hear on the ground

19:25

that can then be articulated and

19:27

sent an email and followed up and go, "Mick, don't

19:29

miss this opportunity". These things are

19:31

happening. Make sure your ducks are in a row and

19:33

they're really important and they make a world

19:35

of difference. And I think Shane said it before, we're

19:38

the first in our families to own and operate

19:41

and do business. We don't have

19:43

any generational wealth. So we're

19:45

learning this as we go as at the same time. And

19:48

what we do around sharing

19:50

that dollar that comes through the door is

19:53

we've always done that. And Aboriginal people will continue

19:55

to do that. That dollar goes four

19:57

or five ways once it's landed on the table. So

20:00

you know, you won't see Shane , well not

20:03

right now, maybe in another couple more years buying

20:05

a yacht in the harbor and sailing off the

20:07

sunset

20:10

When that happens, mate , you'll be on board.

20:12

Correct. It

20:15

is always, as a

20:17

community, as a people, we

20:20

always have taken care of each other. And

20:22

that is just the way Aboriginal people have

20:24

operated for thousands of years. So it's not mine, it's

20:26

ours. And I think when an opportunity

20:29

walks through the door, it's always, you know, it's the

20:31

hustle and bustle and making sure that you've got your tender

20:33

right. Make sure you've got all the right people. As

20:35

Shane said before, it is really

20:38

important that, you know, the pressure is on us.

20:40

And I understand as an ex-sportsman

20:43

playing AFL football at a high level, that

20:46

young black kids were watching me

20:48

on television. So I understood

20:50

that, I accepted that responsibility and

20:52

I knew what I had to do. So to be a

20:54

successful player, you had to train hard,

20:57

eat well, turn up on time, make

20:59

sure that you are going above and beyond to make

21:01

sure that you are doing everything you can

21:03

just to be a really positive impact within the team

21:05

of the organisation. So the same philosophy

21:08

I have is exactly now with

21:10

business. I try to surround myself with

21:13

really good people because genuinely I

21:15

get good results. And it's one of my favourite

21:17

sayings. So I

21:19

have people like Rohan who works for our business and

21:21

when Rohan's doing really well , we just make sure that

21:24

there is a career pathway to be able to promote

21:26

that. So we need to continue to tell

21:28

really great stories about our people

21:31

and our businesses because you

21:33

know, unfortunately when you pick up a paper we're

21:35

on the front page. It's always a mad, bad and sad

21:38

reaction. So we need to be going great

21:40

stories like Shane's business, like my business . Rohan, I

21:44

don't mean to embarrass Rohan right now, but

21:46

Rohan was in the Financial Review, one

21:48

of the young entrepreneurs of the year; Indigenous

21:50

entrepreneurs of the of the year. So

21:53

on Rohan. But a great story

21:56

and we need to continue those stories . So the

21:59

capability and the opportunities

22:01

when they present themselves, I'm really

22:03

thankful for them. But we work really hard like any other

22:06

business in Australia or around the world. But

22:08

ultimately I try to keep it really simple and

22:10

that is be around really good people, work

22:13

hard, go above and beyond. And we're

22:15

a business that we know we make mistakes,

22:18

we absolutely make mistakes. But I think

22:20

what we do really well is we try to rectify

22:22

really quickly, find out what that is, problem

22:24

solve . You know , our people have been solving problems for

22:27

years . Years and thousands and thousands of years. So , it's

22:30

nothing new, but we need to continue the conversation

22:32

around our great stories , people

22:34

within our organisations and

22:37

we need to keep on promoting all

22:39

of our other brothers and sisters and all their incredible

22:41

work, what they do and starting their businesses.

22:43

So as I said, I saw Shane do what

22:46

he did, I saw what Troy do what he

22:48

did. I thought, yes okay , I'm

22:50

going to go out on a limb here and I'm going to have a crack at it. I can

22:52

always go back to football and

22:54

become a coach. That's a passion of

22:57

mine. I still love it. But yes,

22:59

I really wanted to give this thing a crack at

23:01

it. And I think we've done okay; we

23:03

continue to sort of chip away, but really important

23:06

to keep on telling those stories as well.

23:08

The stories is people

23:11

buy from people. So,

23:13

you know, those stories is how one

23:16

of the tools that I use, I think to introduce

23:18

you into our business. And I

23:20

know that, I had a startup back

23:23

in the day and this was somebody, you know, I

23:25

worked in procurement. I thought it would be easy on

23:27

the other side and it absolutely wasn't.

23:30

Even as somebody who'd worked in a corporate and

23:32

thought I knew what I was doing. So

23:34

I could only imagine what it's like to sort of

23:37

navigate organisations like

23:39

CBRE without that knowledge.

23:42

Yes, we have knowledge up here. We don't have

23:44

knowledge around...when I'm starting this business,

23:47

our people, we've never participated in

23:49

the economic development of Australia. We

23:52

don't have any, we don't have wealth. So

23:56

now for us, you had to play sport to

23:59

earn a really great living and

24:01

sport has changed my life. It's been an amazing

24:03

journey. But that was a long time

24:05

ago. So now what can you do? It

24:07

takes no talent to turn up

24:09

on time and I talk to a

24:11

lot of school children with our foundation. It takes

24:14

no talent to turn up to school and

24:16

participate in the class. There's no talent

24:19

around. It takes a lot of talent to play professional

24:21

Rugby League or AFL or

24:23

Union or whatever it might be. That

24:25

takes no talent, it takes an effort. So we

24:28

need to continue to, as I said, those stories are really

24:30

important. But now

24:32

the next big thing, and Shane touched

24:34

on it again, was around having it mandated

24:37

and making sure that all of our

24:39

ducks are in a row. We've

24:41

got a service that we think that we're a really good

24:43

business to be a part of. And you'll learn

24:45

some really great things along that journey as well. But

24:48

we need those opportunities because we can

24:50

do it.

24:51

And thinking again about

24:55

what else do we need to know and how we can

24:57

better support your businesses. I

24:59

know Mick you mentioned it's just about opportunities

25:03

and having sort of a central point

25:05

of contact in in the organisation. Is

25:07

there anything else you can think of that you

25:09

would want your clients to know? Shane

25:12

, I might throw it over to you.

25:14

Well, I believe

25:16

with diversity, innovation comes.

25:19

For me, that's like us working

25:21

down in that place management where

25:23

all the Koori boys down there all working

25:26

and all that. And one of the guards come down

25:28

and he said to us, "This is where Australia started here

25:30

, mate". We all just looked and laughed at

25:32

each other. He goes, "What are you laughing at?" And I

25:34

said, "We're all Koori boys mate". He went , "Sorry, I didn't

25:37

know. I didn't know". I said, yes, that's alright.

25:40

But he's learned something now about us.

25:42

Now he comes down and we're telling him about our cultures and

25:44

where we're from. We're talking about Darug Land. But

25:48

for me, I just think it's, it's got to

25:50

be in the DNA of a business. Like going

25:53

back up to the eighties, SWIMS

25:55

and that, when they all first came in, everyone went, "What's

25:57

all this ?" What's SWIMS, what's

25:59

safety plans on jobs? And I

26:02

thought I'm never going to get my head around this. But

26:04

now it's just one of the folders up high in your

26:07

office. And I think the folder next to that,

26:09

it's got to be supplier diversity. It's got to be

26:11

your social spend and your social

26:13

empathy. And I think it's

26:16

like SWIMS now . Jobs are safer now because

26:18

of all this, people are aware of safety and

26:21

from that innovations come. You know, the

26:23

jobs are safer , everyone's working safer . I

26:25

think once they understand what Aboriginal business and what

26:27

Aboriginal men and women have got to offer, and

26:29

everyone's got something different offer, but what we've got

26:32

to offer and what we do to through our

26:34

community, get on board with

26:36

that. And I think that once that folder's up there and

26:38

it's full, it'll be something else we'll

26:40

be looking at. Whatever that next thing is, I don't know . But it's just got to be part of business now.

26:42

When you

26:46

engage with Aboriginal people or Aboriginal

26:48

businesses or Aboriginal Torres Strait Islander business,

26:51

you get different methods and ways and particularly

26:53

because we're emerging in

26:55

the business space, they're seen

26:57

as really exciting

26:59

new things. But they're really methods that have been

27:01

passed down since millennia. And

27:04

now we're able to implement

27:06

these into our workplaces and the way we run

27:09

our businesses. So the best example I've got, especially

27:11

our team at ARA Indigenous, is that we don't

27:14

manage from a hierarchy structure. We manage

27:16

from a circular structure, you know. And

27:19

in the middle of the circle is your apprentices,

27:22

your new start cleaners and whatever. And

27:24

then on the outside is your senior

27:26

people. And it's not based on title

27:28

or pay grades , but it's based on knowledge and experience.

27:31

That's what's respected, you know? So I

27:34

spent time talking about this today and

27:37

one of our technicians has been a technician

27:39

for 10 years. He sits on

27:41

the outside circle with us because he's so senior

27:43

and he's so well respected. So that's

27:46

only one of many methods, but simple stuff

27:48

like that, that is effective. And

27:50

then when you have a week like we've had in the last

27:52

couple of weeks coming in the end of financial year, the amount

27:55

of people that put their hand up to sit

27:57

on the outside of that circle when there's a

27:59

hole, nobody sits around and says , "No not

28:01

my job, not my pay grade, not my title". They

28:04

just do it. It's like people's

28:06

minds are really blown about

28:08

the way we can do that.

28:10

I think that's one thing that is

28:13

really important is the diversity

28:15

of thought and the different ways of thinking

28:17

that, that you bring into organisations

28:21

like ours. And if I think about

28:23

where we're facing a lot of

28:26

challenges globally, you know, environmental

28:29

challenges and social challenges, we

28:31

won't be able to tackle those unless

28:34

we have new ways of thinking.

28:37

New approaches to that. And without

28:40

diversity of thought, diversity

28:42

of business, diversity of of people,

28:45

we're not going to be able to solve those challenges.

28:48

That's the truth .

28:50

A hundred percent . Like if you think, you

28:52

know, just on that alone, with our

28:54

people, our concern for country, the

28:56

way that we take care of our own, the

28:59

way that we like to have balance

29:01

in everything we do - just

29:04

those things alone, if they were implemented

29:06

across the board, how much better

29:08

place would we be in this world?

29:11

We're coming into NAIDOC week really

29:14

shortly and we've just had reconciliation

29:17

week not long ago. What's

29:19

your hope for your businesses

29:22

and for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander businesses

29:24

into the future? Mick I might circle back

29:26

to you.

29:27

It's a great question. I think when

29:30

I reflect on our business, all

29:32

it's really done - well done

29:34

a lot for me. But the one thing I take out

29:36

and I sort of hang my hat on is around flexibility

29:40

and agile as a business that , that

29:42

we can be. I just keep on picturing

29:45

and thinking back to as a young boy growing

29:47

up and our communities around the

29:49

country are sports obsessed . You

29:51

know, it's something in the blood running through the veins that

29:53

we're really good at it. But it's something that is

29:56

drummed into you when you're a young boy playing football

29:59

and you aspire to be this professional

30:01

person. So as

30:03

a business owner now, and reflecting

30:06

out back as a young boy, we played

30:08

in a lot of our aboriginal carnivals, whether it be

30:11

the AFL one, whether it be the Rugby League knockout,

30:13

whether it be the netball carnival, as

30:15

a business owner now, I contribute to

30:17

our carnivals. So

30:20

back in the day, we would have to wait for government

30:22

approval and money to

30:24

land before we could actually even have a

30:27

carnival. Now the influx

30:29

of Aboriginal businesses would contribute to

30:31

that now, and it's simple as a phone

30:33

call or quick email. There's

30:35

not this three to four month wait hoping

30:38

we get the funding. So we're

30:40

dictating our own path and how we

30:42

want to view that. So I'm really

30:44

proud of that and Rohan will ring me

30:46

and go , "Hey, someone else, another community's

30:48

looking for some sponsorship". And I'll go , "Okay, who

30:50

is it? What do they do ?" And they all sort

30:53

of come out, but I think that's a really great thing and

30:55

we try to help as many communities as we can.

30:58

I spoke about the business growing and

31:00

becoming even bigger and employing more

31:03

and more Aboriginal Torres Strait Islander people. And

31:05

I go back to what Shane said before at

31:08

the start of the conversation, I hope that

31:10

someone joins our business does it

31:12

for a year or two or three or whatever it is,

31:15

figures out, hey, wow, this is actually worthwhile.

31:17

I can actually do this myself. Why

31:19

wouldn't I start a business? We

31:21

would support that and we have supported that

31:23

in the past. So I'm hopeful. Yeah,

31:26

I'm really hopeful and when I reflect on

31:28

NAIDOC week, Reconciliation Week and

31:31

what my grandfather and my grandmother went

31:33

through, and we all reflect on our old people

31:36

and the opportunities that they never had. Now

31:38

we've got the world at our feet at the moment

31:40

. So there's a responsibility absolutely, that

31:42

I take very, very seriously as a business

31:45

owner and as a leader in their

31:47

community. And my responsibility

31:49

around that is to continue to teach and and

31:52

to help. So yeah, when I

31:54

think about NAIDOC week, I think about Reconciliation

31:56

Week, I think about, Sorry Day, I think about all those

31:59

old people back in our communities and

32:01

certainly here being a boy from Adelaide

32:04

living in New South Wales now, and how

32:06

lucky I was to land in

32:08

this incredible country here

32:10

in New South Wales. It's been amazing.

32:12

Come on Mick. I know that story, mate.

32:15

You said it at the Maroubra Lions football thing.

32:17

You wanted to come home, your mum said, sorry, your

32:20

cousin's in your bed. Learn to like it.

32:22

Learn to love Gadigal country, you said.

32:24

But it is so true. I

32:26

mean, and we, as you guys all know, we

32:29

love talking about our people. It's

32:31

one of the great things. Our humor is one of

32:33

our greatest strengths. And you've had to, you had to have

32:35

great humour to survive what we've been through, right ? But

32:38

you're not wrong, Shane. There's lots of

32:40

sad times along that journey, but then you meet great

32:42

people along that journey as well. So I'm

32:44

very hopeful that we can continue to do what we

32:46

do. We only become successful

32:48

when we win work from businesses

32:51

like yourself, Sujata. Like it's really critical.

32:53

And then there's our end of the bargain we've

32:56

got to uphold. When I shake your hand and

32:58

look you in the eye and say, we can do the job, we can

33:00

do the job. So I'll continue to

33:02

surround myself with people like Rohan, Shane

33:04

and Troy and, and a great mate of

33:06

mine, Adam Goodes, who is also a very

33:09

successful person in his own right. So the

33:11

more of our young people see people

33:13

like Shane and Rohan and myself, that's

33:16

a really great thing. That's a really great thing.

33:18

So , yes, plenty of things to reflect

33:21

on and and be hopeful for I think.

33:23

But NAIDOC week,

33:25

special week we get to talk about our mob and

33:27

our culture and our history.

33:29

Hey Mick, let me ask you something. Do you get

33:31

the same buzz out of business winning

33:33

contracts and delivering contracts as you did out of football?

33:36

Absolutely. It's like

33:38

coming off...when you win a tender, a

33:41

tender's a little bit longer as you know, because it might

33:43

take months, it might take even longer than

33:46

a month or two. But the

33:48

art of the deal I guess and trying to

33:50

sort of convince a business like

33:52

CBRE that we are really good, honest,

33:55

hardworking business and that's why you should

33:57

use us, because these outcomes

33:59

will happen if you do. I

34:01

love that, I love that. Whereas if I was a

34:03

sports person in a team, when

34:06

you're a young fellow , all you're doing is trying to play a game of

34:08

professional football. Kick a goal if you

34:10

can and survive. And then as

34:12

you get older you become more team orientated

34:14

and you want the team to do really well. And

34:17

I'm in that period now in my life where I want our

34:19

business to do really well because I know

34:21

how it affects a lot of other people. And

34:23

I love seeing young people emerge as

34:26

these incredible leaders like Rohan has for our

34:28

business. Because I want them to take the

34:31

torch and carry it. And that

34:33

gives me a buzz mate. Absolutely.

34:35

On that question. You

34:37

know, I always, I think about if

34:40

you don't have a vision of what this looks

34:42

like when you are dead and gone, then you're a little bit rudderless

34:45

and you're sort of on

34:47

your travels . But, you know, first thing

34:49

I want is our kids inheriting businesses, not

34:51

trauma. And when they're

34:53

inheriting businesses, I want them to

34:55

be able to make the key decisions

34:58

on their own be that well skilled

35:00

and adverse and make the key decisions on their own . They let

35:02

the big contracts, you know, they make

35:04

the big calls , they sit around the boardroom tables

35:07

to the point where you don't

35:09

longer need a reconciliation action plan

35:11

to drive this. You don't need an epic government

35:14

policy to drive this. You don't need none of it because

35:16

it's just the best decision to make.

35:18

And Shane, any last reflections from you?

35:21

I just think we've got to

35:24

keep at it. Like you said, we're doing

35:26

it for our legacy here and we're doing it

35:28

for community and we have

35:30

to make it work. There's too many people relying on

35:33

us and you know , I think that that's our driver

35:35

, you know what I mean? Not not only for ourself

35:37

, but you know, like we know

35:39

the people who are relying on us. You know, like I need to

35:41

let this guy pay his home off. You know what I mean? So I'm

35:44

going to keep going for that legacy.

35:47

And for organisations like ours

35:49

I know that we're here to support you as

35:52

best we can through creating some of those

35:54

opportunities and hopefully everyone

35:56

who's listening today has been able to

35:59

take away a little nugget that helps

36:01

them think a little bit differently and think

36:04

about their supply chain a little bit differently. Shane

36:07

, Mick, Rohan, I

36:09

think we could have probably kept

36:11

talking for another couple of hours. But

36:14

there's a few things that I've just taken away from

36:16

our conversation. Rohan, just

36:18

what you said at the end, you want your kids to

36:20

be inheriting businesses not trauma. I

36:22

think that's a really powerful statement. Mick, you

36:26

talked about the importance of sharing stories

36:28

and I think we only create

36:30

change if we do share those stories

36:33

and continue to. And Shane,

36:36

you said that when we're talking about working

36:38

with companies like CBRE, it

36:41

needs to be in the DNA of an organisation,

36:43

you know, diversity and inclusion. It needs to

36:46

run through everywhere. Like you said,

36:48

Rohan, to the point that you don't need a reconciliation action

36:50

plan. It is how we work. It's

36:52

how we buy, it's how we operate. I'm

36:55

really excited to be working with you

36:57

now and I'm really excited to have the opportunity

37:00

to continue to work together over the next

37:02

hopefully many, many, many years. And

37:05

for everyone listening, we hope that having Shane

37:07

, Mick and Rohan share their stories has

37:09

been really valuable. Thank

37:12

you for tuning in to the latest episode

37:14

of Talking Property with CBRE and

37:16

our very special guests. If

37:18

you like the show and want to check out more, please

37:21

visit cbre. com.au/talking-property or

37:26

subscribe through Spotify and Apple Podcasts.

37:30

And until next time.