0:00

This podcast is not sponsored by and

0:02

does not reflect the views of the institutions

0:04

that employ us . It is solely our thoughts

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and ideas , based upon our professional training

0:09

and study of the family .

0:13

Welcome to Talking Texas History , the

0:15

podcast that explores Texas history

0:18

before and beyond the Alamo

0:20

. Not only will we talk Texas

0:22

history , we'll visit with folks who teach

0:24

it , write it , support it and

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with some who've made it and , of course , all

0:29

of us who live it and love it . Welcome

0:35

to another edition of Talking Texas History

0:37

. I'm Gene Price and I'm Scott Sospin

0:40

Scott today

0:42

. A very exciting interview

0:45

. You know murder

0:47

mysteries are popular

0:50

. People love them . You know there's podcasts

0:53

on them . There's books on them . One

0:55

of the best books I ever read . I decided I

0:57

was going to stop reading history . I

0:59

read in cold blood by

1:01

Truman Capote and that was fantastic

1:04

. So we're going to do a couple

1:06

of shows here on murders in

1:09

West Texas , and

1:12

the first one is

1:14

here with our good friend Alan Burton , and

1:16

Alan helped write

1:18

a book , or co-wrote a book , called

1:21

Fatal Exam and it's about

1:23

a murder . It Texas tech

1:25

.

1:26

Which Gene and I , of course , close our hearts . We both have

1:28

degrees from Tech Tech . I got I

1:31

have more degrees from Texas Tech than Gene does because he's screwed around

1:33

at another school , but we

1:35

won't bring up sore subjects in

1:38

his case to do that . And

1:40

the case that we're going to talk with

1:42

Mr Burton about is , as we were

1:44

talking before , which went

1:46

on the air that it's a

1:48

well-known case . It's an urban

1:50

legend case that goes on love , I

1:52

mean , he'll set us straight on the real story . I

1:55

remember when I was in undergraduate in the 80s

1:57

at Tech there was all kinds of things that

2:00

weren't true about that , that murder that

2:02

took place in the science quadrangle

2:04

, and that was just grew about at it

2:06

. But welcome , alan

2:08

, we're glad you're here . We're glad you talked

2:11

about the book . Get us started . Why don't you just tell us a little bit about

2:13

yourself ? You know where

2:15

you're from , how you came , where

2:17

you worked and then how you came to write this book .

2:20

Okay , Well , it's not

2:22

the most exciting story in the world , but I

2:24

grew up in Sherman , texas , which

2:27

is about an hour north of Dallas

2:29

and about 10 miles south of Red River

2:31

and Oklahoma . I actually got

2:33

my degree at Texas Tech , degree

2:36

in English . First

2:38

job was at a newspaper . My hometown

2:40

newspaper is a sports rider and

2:43

decided that for a couple of years I needed to get

2:45

another job so I was going to make a living

2:47

, and so I went to the

2:49

PR business and

2:51

just retired last year after 40

2:54

plus years in the school and

2:56

university PR , and

2:58

over those years I've been

3:00

fortunate enough to write nine books

3:02

now and so enjoying

3:04

retirement life right now .

3:07

Why don't you tell us some of what we're going to talk about this book ? But

3:09

tell us a little bit about your other books you've written .

3:13

Well , the other books

3:15

have basically sort of been a lot of what I

3:17

call collection of sports quote

3:19

books . Mike Leach , the former Texas

3:21

Tech coach , actually

3:24

had written two books , a collection

3:26

of his quotes called Squid Picket

3:28

to a Fat Guy , and

3:30

written a couple of other Texas

3:33

sports quote books , wrote a Dallas Cowboys

3:35

sports quote book and

3:38

then probably two of the more unusual

3:41

ones . I wrote a book called Texas Hot

3:43

Shots . It's

3:46

basically a yearbook of Texas

3:48

celebrities with yearbook photos where they went

3:50

to high school , that type thing . And then

3:52

also probably one of the books I'm

3:55

most proud of was Go

3:57

to the Games with Humble . For anybody that

3:59

grew up listening to the Southwest Conference Football

4:02

in the 60s , sort of a historical

4:04

look back at the radio broadcasting

4:06

and that was a lot of fun , but anyway

4:08

, that's sort of where we're at right now .

4:10

I think you know , alan . I'm pretty

4:12

sure I read that book and I guess I

4:14

didn't connect it with you . I think that's

4:16

exactly . I remember reading that book and it's a very

4:19

good one . Yes , I loved it

4:21

.

4:21

Yeah , thank you On this podcast . We

4:23

want to talk about this book you wrote with Chuck

4:25

Lanehart and it just

4:27

came out from Texas Tech University Press

4:30

. The title's Fatal Exam

4:32

Solving Lubbock's Greatest Murder

4:34

Mystery , great

4:37

title . I'm going to ask you a question

4:39

Are there other murder mysteries in

4:41

the Lubbock area ?

4:44

You know there are , and during the

4:46

course , I might add , this book was 20

4:48

years in the making . I first started it back

4:50

in 2004 . So

4:52

it's been an off and on process

4:55

, as you might can tell . Just a tremendous

4:57

amount of research involved A lot

4:59

of trips to Lubbock , a lot of just

5:02

research . And

5:04

during the course of that research , yes , we uncovered

5:06

. You know there were some , you

5:09

know , murders over the years and leather , but

5:11

in my mind , nothing equal

5:13

to this particular case . As far as this

5:15

, the bizarre things that happened

5:17

, the ironies , the twists and turns

5:20

, there was nothing quite like this particular

5:22

case .

5:23

We just had Carol

5:25

of Lights attack a couple of months ago . It's

5:27

every December , right , and actually I was

5:29

supposed to go with Scott . Both

5:31

of our families were up in Lubbock for

5:33

Carol of Lights . Scott went

5:35

and I didn't .

5:37

So we made the hey , the Centennial celebration

5:39

. If you didn't see , it was one of the most

5:41

elaborate fantastic productions

5:43

I've ever seen . I've been I've been to Carol of Lights

5:45

in almost 30 years and

5:47

this was . It was unbelievable

5:49

, it was absolutely unbelievable . You know what I

5:52

went away saying ? We both work at universities . Texas

5:54

Tech has a whole lot more money than they used to have

5:57

when we were there . They could put something like this on .

6:00

So tell us about the Carol of Lights . Why is that

6:02

such a big deal ?

6:03

That's interesting because I happened to be

6:05

there this last year too . Chuck

6:07

and I did a book signing that day at Barnes

6:10

and Noble , so I went that night . It's just

6:12

a fantastic celebration

6:14

. But I think the Carol of Lights dates

6:16

back to like 1959

6:18

. And it's what it is is basically a holiday

6:21

celebration on the middle of the

6:23

Science Quadrant on the Tech campus

6:25

and it's really a community

6:27

wide thing and , as he

6:29

was saying , it's grown so much over the years

6:31

. When I was out there , you know

6:34

it was nice , but not to the extent . I

6:36

mean this is a full-fledged event

6:38

. This last one I went to with

6:40

music and the lights and just I

6:42

mean it was a . I think there was probably

6:44

20,000 plus people there . So

6:46

it really is a signature event

6:48

for Tech and Lubbock just to sort of kick off

6:50

the holiday season .

6:53

Yeah , I was 20,000 people . I don't know we may be

6:55

, that'd be a low estimate , but I know this . It

6:57

took me an hour and a half

7:00

to get off this Tech campus and the thing was over

7:02

with this . Yeah , the crowds

7:04

or something else . Well , the Carol of Lights , of course

7:06

, figures in greatly , because

7:08

the story of this book it's kind of , you know , it's kind

7:10

of a , a , a tent pole we can say

7:12

for this book , because of course

7:14

, the night before the 1967

7:18

Carol of Lights the custodians

7:20

at the Science Building there in the

7:22

quadrangle made a terrible

7:25

discovery and that's kind of where this

7:27

whole murder mystery starts

7:29

. So why don't you just kind of set the

7:31

scene for our readers and

7:34

listeners , I mean potential readers ? Can

7:36

you describe what it was that the custodians found ?

7:38

Yeah , it was . It was a Monday night , like

7:41

you said . There actually did not . Before the Carol

7:43

of Lights in in the sort

7:45

of the middle of the I don't know if

7:47

people are familiar with the campus in the

7:50

Science Quadrangle , there's the Science

7:52

Building , which is a three-story building , and

7:55

on that Monday night they had classes

7:57

on the bottom two floors and on the top

7:59

floor the third floor are like professor

8:02

offices and labs and that type thing

8:04

Well , a custodian

8:06

, sarah Alice Morgan , which

8:08

is making her cleaning rounds that evening , and

8:11

she walked into a research

8:13

lab on the third floor and

8:15

there was someone in there that wasn't

8:17

supposed to be in there , and

8:21

what eventually happened is this

8:24

individual knocked her out and then brutally

8:27

murdered her , used a scalpel

8:29

and a saw that was there in the lab , and

8:32

all this was all this happened , I

8:35

can say , on the third floor , as classes were

8:37

being conducted on the second

8:39

floor and the first floor that night . Well , about 30 minutes

8:42

after this happened

8:44

, a couple of graduate assistants

8:46

came up to this research

8:49

lab . They were supposed to get some chemicals for

8:51

their professor and couldn't

8:54

get in . The door was locked and so they

8:56

went back downstairs and told their

8:59

professor . So in the meantime the

9:01

rest of the custodians were gathering for dinner

9:04

and Sarah Morgan

9:06

didn't show up for dinner . So one of her

9:08

coworkers just went looking for her . So

9:10

she knew she was supposed to be on the third floor . So

9:12

she just unlocked the door , walked in and found

9:14

Mrs Morgan lying on the floor .

9:19

And this is horrendous . I mean , tell

9:21

us a little bit about the victims , about

9:23

Ms Morgana , little bit about her again

9:25

.

9:26

Yeah , Ms Morgan . She was from Arkansas originally

9:29

and her and her husband actually both were custodians

9:31

at Tech and I think Ms Morgan

9:34

had only worked there for about a year , I think . Just

9:36

all reports just card working

9:38

individual and

9:40

they had two daughters

9:42

and so I mean it was just a horrific

9:44

, horrific thing .

9:46

You mentioned that these people

9:48

came up while this

9:50

crime was being committed , while this horrible

9:53

murder , I mean she was decapitated . One

9:56

of those students eventually becomes the

9:59

Texas Tech University president , right David

10:01

Schmidley .

10:02

Did you get a ?

10:03

chance to talk to him about this .

10:06

I did . When he

10:08

was president . Later in Oklahoma State I

10:10

happened to meet him at a reception and

10:12

this did with him just briefly and of course he remembered

10:15

it very vividly and

10:17

I think he said it says in the book you

10:21

know they probably would

10:24

have walked in on the murder , except the door

10:26

was locked . But he said you know , it just scared everybody

10:28

to death out there . He said he had

10:30

to work in that building all hours of the day

10:32

and he said of course they wouldn't let you take

10:34

a gun . I took a ball of paint hammer up there like

10:36

that was going to protect myself from whatever he said . It

10:39

was just a very fearful atmosphere

10:41

.

10:42

Well , you know , we're seeing all

10:44

the stuff on TV about things happening at

10:46

universities and university students

10:48

and schools and teachers

10:50

and students being scared

10:53

. So I , you know this . It was true in 1967

10:56

, just like it is today . I mean , it really

10:58

created a

11:00

sense of terror on campus , a sense of

11:02

fear . Imagine people walking around with the

11:04

hair on the back of their neck , sticking up all the time

11:07

Anytime they heard something and

11:09

text a big walking campus

11:11

. It's a huge campus and

11:13

I , you know , when I was there , I remember , just

11:15

you know , walking across and at

11:17

night and not thinking anything of it , being in the

11:20

library , you

11:22

know , late at night and going back to my

11:24

car and stuff , and I

11:26

can't imagine what it was like to

11:29

be a young student back in those days when

11:31

that happened .

11:32

I started at Tech in 1980

11:35

as a freshman and it was a . I mean you

11:37

said we walk all over and do these things , but

11:39

the cause of that murder and we'd heard

11:41

about it there was a thing you don't go in

11:43

the science building late at night because

11:45

the place is haunted because

11:47

of this murder . That was a well-known urban

11:49

legend all over the campus

11:52

. So , alan , why don't you tell us the beginning stages

11:55

? I mean we don't want to give away from the book because everybody

11:57

needs to go and buy this book , but in

11:59

beginning stages of the investigation

12:02

the Lubbock police were . They

12:04

were at a loss . You know who did this

12:07

, why were they there and it took them a little

12:09

while . So kind of , maybe walk us through a little bit of the investigation

12:12

and how they finally settled on the

12:14

suspect . Is it Benjamin ? How do you say his

12:16

name ? Is it Locke ? Is that how you say his last name , benjamin

12:18

?

12:18

Locke . Yes , Well , you have to remember back

12:21

during that time period the police didn't

12:23

have sophisticated DNA

12:25

evidence and those types of things and so

12:27

they were pretty limited and

12:30

, like you said , they were sort of a loss , didn't

12:32

really have a lot

12:34

of leads . They appealed to the public , they

12:36

had rewards in the community and I

12:39

know from talking to people there at that time

12:41

, like I say , there was just fear across campus

12:44

. They locked all the dorms at night . They had

12:46

students walking the female

12:49

students to their cars at night . So

12:51

it was just an atmosphere of fear . And

12:54

again , what's sort of interesting

12:56

, ironic deal , what broke the case

12:58

is there was a biology

13:01

professor who taught in the science

13:03

building there and he had a student who

13:06

was making very poor grades

13:08

and then all of a sudden he started

13:10

making aids and everything . And

13:13

in the meantime the professor also noticed

13:15

that someone had been coming in his office in

13:18

temperance stealing tests . So he thought

13:20

, okay , that's , that's sort of weird

13:22

. And he knew from the public reports

13:24

of the murder that really the only thing taken

13:26

from Mrs Morgan were her keys to the

13:28

building . So he sort of put

13:30

two into the ghetto , thought one of this could be

13:32

a connection . So then he contacted the police

13:35

to let them know . And then

13:37

the professor planned a big exam

13:40

during a week and

13:42

knowing that this guy might come back

13:44

and try to steal the exam , so the police actually

13:46

spent the night staked out his office and

13:49

sure enough , this individual walked

13:51

up in the about seven o'clock in the morning with

13:53

the keys to open up and steal

13:57

the test . But again it's almost like

13:59

the keys don't pop . He saw the

14:01

police , he took off running and escaped that

14:03

went down the stairs , went out the building , stole

14:06

a car and took off driving all over love

14:08

it . And again

14:10

this sort of strange . So

14:13

a call came in , I think , to the police haters

14:15

a stolen vehicle and a guy driving

14:17

through love it , radically not knowing

14:20

the police , not knowing this was the guy

14:22

that they were chasing for the murder . So

14:25

after this long police chase , he crashed

14:27

action to the cemetery , rest haven cemetery

14:29

and that's where he was actually apprehended .

14:32

So I mean

14:34

he stops and gets gas too . I thought that

14:36

was unbelievable

14:41

. It seemed like it was kind of a

14:43

very naive

14:45

investigation , a naive time for police

14:48

work and the

14:50

criminals as well . Criminals

14:52

aren't like they are on TV . They make a lot

14:54

of dumb mistakes . What

14:57

was the timeline between the

14:59

crime when it was committed , right

15:02

before the Carolites , to the time

15:04

that they actually stopped

15:06

him after he wrecked his car in the cemetery

15:08

by the mausoleum ?

15:11

The crime happened in early December of

15:13

67 and I believe the

15:15

arrest happened in early March

15:17

. Now , during that time

15:19

, like I say , the investigation was ongoing

15:21

and I

15:24

think a few weeks before they actually arrested

15:26

him , he had come up on their radar

15:28

and they had actually called him for questioning

15:30

and given him some

15:32

polygraph examination . So I mean , they

15:34

had an idea , but

15:36

they didn't have enough to hold him on . They

15:41

even gave him what back then sodium and

15:43

pentheol , to try to true serve . It's all kind

15:45

of stuff . That's how they

15:48

were just reaching for any and everything to

15:51

try to find someone .

15:53

Well , you know , one of the things that I

15:55

thought was I couldn't believe

15:57

it , and you've got a lot of

15:59

sidebars in the book and

16:02

other discussions going on . One

16:05

of them that stuck out to me

16:07

was the police

16:10

in Lubbock decided

16:13

to try something new and that was called

16:16

silver . I always heard of it as

16:18

silver mind control . It

16:20

was a way of concentrating

16:22

your thinking and getting

16:25

in touch with a higher spiritual

16:27

lane . Maybe it

16:30

was real popular back in the 70s

16:32

and 80s . I heard about it . I was talking

16:34

to Scott . Scott hadn't heard about

16:36

it . I don't think .

16:37

Oh no , I had not heard about that at all .

16:40

How did this even become a

16:42

technique that the police thought might be useful

16:45

?

16:47

I was sort of baffled when I saw that I had

16:49

to go back and do a lot of research on that . But

16:51

, like you said , apparently that was a very popular

16:54

whatever back during

16:57

that time period and Jose

16:59

Silva traveled around I guess Texas

17:01

in the area putting on seminars . It's

17:05

almost like you hear all that used to

17:07

hear about the Elvin Woods speed reading courses . It

17:09

was that type of thing , except , I guess , for sort

17:11

of mind reading

17:13

or ESP or super , whatever you

17:15

want to call it and , like I

17:17

said , the police . I think we're just so desperate

17:20

for anything that they contacted

17:22

Silva and asked them hey , would you help

17:24

us ? And I think it sort of

17:26

goes in detail in the book that they

17:29

said well , you know we can't

17:31

do that , but we will train you if somebody I

17:34

just want to learn how to use the method . But

17:37

they didn't have time and so it

17:39

never did . Really , you know

17:41

, play every age . Well , it

17:43

was a weird conversation that they had . It

17:46

was , yeah , it really

17:48

was .

17:48

You mentioned earlier Keystone cops and

17:51

I hate to put the police in that

17:53

light , but you know , I mean , you know

17:55

, maybe we're talking 2024 , something that happened in

17:57

1967 . So I'm

17:59

sure that you know 3040

18:02

, 50 years from now , they're going to think things we're

18:04

doing are ridiculous . But that

18:07

was just . I thought that was a real

18:09

interesting little sidebar you

18:11

had in the book .

18:13

You know you were talking about that

18:15

lock and about him . Why

18:17

don't you tell us a little bit about him ? I mean , he's

18:20

not somebody that

18:22

we would have been on the right . I mean he wasn't

18:24

a career criminal , but

18:26

obviously there

18:29

were some how shall we say it Personality

18:32

quirks about him . I guess a little bit . So

18:34

maybe tell people a little bit about law .

18:38

Sure , he at the time

18:40

of the murder he was like 23 year old

18:42

, student there at Tech and

18:44

he and his family actually had

18:47

immigrated from Poland to the United

18:49

States . I think , like in 1958

18:51

. They immigrated to Tennessee

18:53

and then from Tennessee , moved

18:55

up to the Boston area and he , I

18:58

think , has a degree from a school in

19:00

the Boston area . But he went

19:02

to Tech . He was trying to get more credit . His

19:04

goal was actually to be a medical doctor

19:07

, and so that was what his career

19:09

path was , and from

19:11

everyone I talked to , they

19:15

really think that , you know , he

19:18

was a good guy , bright

19:20

guy , but he felt so much pressure

19:22

to succeed from

19:25

his family or whatever , and

19:27

when he started failing classes , that was

19:29

when the problem started and he , just he

19:31

had to succeed . He had this just overriding

19:35

desire to be successful and do

19:37

anything , you know , to

19:39

reach that end or whatever . And that was

19:41

sort of the crux of what the psychiatrist

19:44

all said . Again

19:47

, we talked about all the strange and bizarre

19:49

things back in that era

19:51

when he was arrested in

19:53

Texas and the common thing was is

19:55

, instead of sending someone to trial right

19:57

away on a crime like this , they would send them to

19:59

the state hospital . And sure enough

20:02

, they ruled him unfit

20:04

to stand trial . So they sent him to the

20:06

rest state hospital for a year . And

20:09

so he went down there , got treatment

20:12

supposedly , and then was certified as

20:14

saying and came back to Lubbock

20:16

to stand trial . But in

20:18

the meantime , just in a couple of years another bizarre

20:21

thing there were three psychiatrists in

20:23

Lubbock who had examined him

20:25

on all grade . He needed to get treatment . Well

20:28

, in the meantime , when he came back from the

20:30

state hospital , one of those Lubbock psychiatrists

20:32

had been stabbed to death by his wife and

20:36

love it . I mean again , if

20:39

you wrote that no one would believe it . So

20:41

it's just this bizarre stuff like that .

20:45

And when he was in prison I

20:47

guess , because you have a little bit about him in

20:49

prison , and particularly when he came up for

20:51

parole and things like this there

20:53

was the tone I got . There's

20:55

kind of this campaign of you know this , he'll

20:57

never do this again . It's kind of one off thing

20:59

and there's some campaigns to give him parole . So

21:03

maybe , maybe , let people know a little bit about that .

21:06

Yeah , he was . The trial has actually

21:08

moved a change of venue from Lubbock

21:10

to Fort Worth and he

21:13

was sentenced to 40 years in

21:15

prison and , by all

21:18

accounts , as a model prisoner , he earned

21:20

, I think , two or three college degrees

21:22

in prison . He

21:25

received an outstanding JC

21:27

award , which created some controversy throughout

21:29

the state , and

21:32

everyone I talked to said yeah , he was

21:34

just a model prisoner , he was the editor of

21:36

the prison newspaper . So

21:39

anyway , you know , back back in

21:41

that era this is what he , I think he went

21:43

to prison in 70 , by about 1980

21:46

. There was a movement , you know , for

21:48

him to receive parole and there had been

21:50

some new laws passed that

21:52

granted prisoners

21:54

good time credit if they had

21:57

college credit , that type thing , and so he ended up

21:59

qualifying for that . He was actually

22:01

paroled in 1983

22:04

. So he started about 13 years

22:06

and went back

22:08

up to the Boston area and from

22:10

all accounts he lived a seemingly normal life

22:12

and never been in trouble again .

22:14

Did you hear anything from him , alan , have you heard

22:17

anything ?

22:18

No , no , no , no , the vote came out , or anything

22:20

like that no .

22:22

And so how did Sarah Morgan's murder

22:25

change Texas Tech in Lubbock ?

22:27

You know I've talked to some people at Tech

22:30

who were there back in that time and they don't think there

22:32

was any long term In fact they

22:34

think they're worse in short term impacts

22:37

. They felt like it , you

22:39

know , obviously raised some concerns

22:41

around the state . You know . You know

22:43

we're sending our kids off to Texas Tech . Is

22:46

it safe there ? I mean , is there pressure on

22:48

students to succeed academically ? I

22:50

mean , what's going on out there ? And

22:53

some people said they thought there might have been

22:55

some short term impacts on recruiting . But

22:58

but again , even though that

23:00

was an unusual crime for back then , 1967

23:03

, if during the course of our research we discovered

23:05

there were other murders at Texas colleges

23:08

, obviously the most famous

23:10

was the UT sniper shooting

23:12

in 1966 . But

23:15

there are also , just pretty close

23:17

to the time of the Sarah Morgan murder , there

23:19

was a murder of a Baylor student and

23:21

then the same year , or

23:23

1966 again , there

23:26

are a couple of or three coeds murdered

23:28

at University of Texas . So it wasn't like

23:30

this was the first time there had been a murder

23:32

on a Texas college campus . It

23:35

just was unusual for West Texas

23:37

and Texas Tech I think .

23:39

Do you think , alan , that it was part of the era

23:41

of being 67 , 68,

23:43

? You have , you know , college campuses

23:46

or even tech really wasn't hotbeds

23:48

of anti war protests , and

23:51

we have the whole you know 60s

23:53

culture . You think that was part of

23:55

this whole idea . Oh , look what's finally

23:57

coming home . I think it's a little lullaby

23:59

, that kind of started , this kind of I don't know what you'd

24:01

say paranoia about sending your

24:03

kids off to school and yeah

24:06

, I don't know you might call it , you know , for

24:08

just sort of maybe a loss of

24:10

innocence .

24:12

Nothing really that bad had probably happened on

24:14

the tech campus before that and it's

24:16

sort of a wake up call that , hey , this is the real

24:18

world , is kind of thinking happened anywhere . You

24:21

know another thing that I think people forget

24:23

back in 1967 , you didn't have

24:25

24 hour cable news , you

24:27

didn't have the internet , you didn't have social media

24:30

. So really I

24:33

mean it got news covers but it was pretty

24:35

much Lubbock Avalanche Journal

24:37

local TV , and

24:40

I would be remiss if I didn't say the

24:42

Avalanche Journal was critical . They did

24:44

a tremendous job of covering

24:46

that case . In fact one of the reports was

24:48

instrumental in breaking the case . He just

24:50

covered it like crazy and

24:52

they did a tremendous job of covering

24:54

that case .

24:56

You know I think Scott asked a really

24:58

good question . You know this is the flower

25:01

power generation and

25:03

1967

25:06

was right in the heart of that

25:08

movement and especially on college

25:11

campuses . You talk

25:14

about Texas Tech being kind of unusual

25:16

. It's not your typical college campus

25:19

of the 1960s . You

25:22

know we've got professors that

25:24

used to tell us that there may have been one protest

25:26

and it was quickly broken up there , but

25:29

it wasn't , like , you know

25:31

, berkeley or any

25:35

of those other big universities that get

25:37

a lot of attention because of what happened

25:39

during the 60s . It was kind of a very

25:42

down home , family oriented campus

25:44

, right .

25:46

Yeah , and I think that's what appealed a lot of students

25:49

and parents in Texas . They just felt comfortable

25:51

and again , that's probably why it was so

25:53

shocking that it happened there , because it was just so

25:55

much out of the ordinary for sort

25:57

of a calm , tranquil campus like that

25:59

.

26:00

Well , you know , it's like I always say . Is that one

26:02

of the things that people always say after

26:04

every tragedy ? I never thought

26:07

it would happen here . Yeah .

26:09

Alan , tell us a little bit about your co-author

26:13

, Chuck Lanehart , about how

26:15

you and he got together on this and kind

26:17

of what he provided and some of the background

26:19

on him .

26:21

Yeah , chuck's just a great guy

26:23

, very well respected attorney there in Lubbock

26:26

. And he sort of came in on the back end of the project

26:28

but helped me really see it through

26:30

to the finish line and make sure it got done . He

26:33

provided obviously a lot of legal expertise

26:35

and he actually knew a lot of the

26:37

attorneys and law

26:40

enforcement people that were involved in the case

26:42

, and so he was very helpful to

26:44

give me that perspective . So I can't

26:46

say enough good things about Chuck .

26:48

What is it ? So you finished this one and it's come out

26:50

. Everybody . It's fatal exam , solving

26:52

Lubbock's greatest murder mystery . Texas

26:54

Tech Press is who published it

26:57

. You can buy it on their website or

26:59

Amazon and all those kind of good things . The

27:01

press would like you to go on their website and buy

27:03

it . I know that it's stood up Amazon

27:06

, but authors , we know that too . We don't care

27:08

where you get it , we just want you to get something when you do

27:10

this . But you're now an established

27:13

I mean established writer and you've

27:15

got a genre . I guess you kind of moved

27:17

out of sports and moved into now

27:20

a murder mystery . Is that

27:22

what's next on your radar for a project

27:24

, or what do you have with the project coming up ?

27:27

Yeah , I'm not sure . I am looking at a couple

27:29

of true crimes . One of them is I mentioned at the

27:31

University of Texas . That

27:34

was part of the appeal of this book . It was sort of a

27:36

challenge . I had never done almost any true

27:38

crime . I wanted to sort of see

27:40

if I could do that sort of challenge myself , to see

27:42

if I could do it , and so I enjoyed

27:44

it . I love the research part of

27:46

it . That's my favorite thing . For me

27:48

, writing is the research , because

27:51

you invariably stumble across things

27:53

like we talked about . You had no idea . So

27:56

that's the part I enjoy and so you know

27:58

I may continue in that vein with

28:01

the next book .

28:02

What's a great book . Lots of illustrations

28:05

, lots of primary sources

28:07

. I mean , you really kind of bring back

28:09

some of the newspaper articles of the Avalanche

28:13

published on it . You have a

28:16

bunch of photographs in here . It really helps

28:18

set the scene and for

28:20

people maybe not familiar with tech or West

28:22

Texas , I think it does a great job of

28:24

also blending that into the story .

28:27

Thank you .

28:29

Yeah , it does . You know , as you read it , as

28:31

someone I grew up in West Texas , texas

28:33

Tech was my university I was pointed

28:35

towards for almost an entire month just

28:38

a young person and it was

28:40

to me one of the and this is what a good writer does

28:42

. Alan , I'll give you great kudos for this . It

28:44

sets a great scene of

28:46

what Lubbock and Texas Tech

28:48

were like in the 1960s

28:51

and you kind of get this good picture of

28:54

what it is to do . This . That's right

28:56

, it's a really great book and how you do this . But

28:58

maybe that's a good question . You know

29:00

, maybe we've talked

29:02

a little bit about , but tell us even more about

29:04

Lubbock . We talked about Tech . What about Lubbock in 1967

29:08

? We think of it today as this you know

29:10

300,000 plus places

29:12

, big and sprawled out . That wasn't really

29:14

the case in the 1960s . Lubbock was still

29:16

kind of a small town .

29:18

Yeah , and I think that was certainly appealed to

29:20

, I think , a lot of students and

29:23

I've always felt , like you know Lubbock

29:25

, the people were just super friendly and

29:28

just very down on home and

29:30

and and that was part of the

29:32

appeal of Lubbock , like I say , and

29:35

I think something like this happening

29:37

was just such a shock in that community

29:39

. But it was just to

29:42

me , lubbock's always it's got . You

29:45

know , lubbock sort of takes a knock . But I

29:47

mean , I think Lubbock has a lot going for it . You

29:49

know it's , it's a , it's a fun

29:51

place to go and visit and

29:53

, like I say , the people are just very sincere

29:56

and welcoming . And so

29:59

, you know , it sure has grown over the years , but

30:01

I still think that it maintains

30:04

some of that small town atmosphere

30:07

that you don't find a lot of other places

30:09

.

30:10

Which is certainly why this was so shocking , and I

30:12

guess I don't know , I guess there's nothing else

30:14

that's really happened . I remember I

30:16

don't even remember the young lady's name about

30:19

the time I maybe it's a good thing for a new

30:21

project for you about the time I was

30:23

leaving to come to move here and

30:25

take the job of Stephen F Austin that there

30:27

was a case of a . There was a young

30:29

woman and she had met with some young

30:31

man at a and they'd gone to

30:34

a hotel and he killed her and

30:36

then put her in a suitcase and

30:38

they found her at the love landfill

30:41

and stuff and that you know . And when that

30:43

happened there were some people who compared

30:45

it , started comparing it to the 1967

30:48

murder and things . So yeah , things like that

30:50

don't happen in love with very often .

30:52

Normally , we ask people what do you

30:55

know ? I wanted to ask you if

30:58

someone wants to be a writer , what

31:01

advice do you give them ?

31:04

Be prepared to really work hard . It's

31:06

it's not an easy task and

31:08

I've learned a lot over the years , really

31:12

just research

31:14

, research , research . And

31:18

I'll tell you what I thought about this before coming

31:20

on here today . I

31:23

couldn't have written any of these nine books

31:25

, especially this newest one , without

31:28

newspapers . And think

31:30

about go back in time how newspapers

31:32

really really were

31:35

history for us . I mean , 90%

31:37

of the information that I was able to put

31:39

together on this book came from the Lubbock

31:41

Avalanche Journal . Like I said , they did a tremendous

31:44

job of covering that

31:46

story and newspapers

31:48

in general . And that's one thing

31:50

I missed today is is just the

31:53

impact newspapers had back 40s

31:56

, 50s , 60s , because virtually all books

31:58

that I've written went to

32:01

newspaper archives and it was just

32:03

unbelievable . The wealth

32:05

of information is out there . But

32:08

, to be like to your question , I think it's

32:10

just you really got to want to be a writer

32:12

, understand how it worked , that you've got to be dedicated

32:14

and spend the time and then you've got to have some breaks

32:17

. You know I've been fortunate in meeting some people

32:19

who opened some doors for me

32:21

and allowed me

32:23

to sort of get my foot in the door , and

32:26

then I've sort of pursued it after that and

32:29

again , I had no false illusions

32:31

of being John Grisham . I always

32:33

wanted to . I wrote because I enjoyed

32:35

it and then even when I was working

32:37

, it was good therapy

32:40

for me . I'd come home after work and sit down

32:42

and do some internet research or ride a little bit

32:44

, spent the weekends , but it was

32:46

like a hobby Some people play golf . I

32:48

researched and wrote books .

32:50

Alan , this has been a fantastic conversation

32:52

. Unfortunately

32:54

, 30 minutes comes very quickly . Gene

32:57

, we met up our podcast longer

32:59

. Sometimes Our readers our listeners

33:01

revolt and stop listening because they

33:03

don't want to listen to that long . But , folks , it's like

33:06

I said , it's fatal exam , solving love , it's

33:08

greatest murder mystery , fantastic

33:10

read , you know . I mean , that's one thing about

33:12

it . The narrative is great and

33:14

Alan and Chuck did a fantastic

33:17

job . Alan , it's got to be a fine

33:19

writer , alan , thanks for being with us today

33:21

. We really have enjoyed this great book .

33:23

Well , thanks for having me on You're very

33:25

welcome Thanks . You're welcome Thanks

33:33

.