0:10

Good afternoon, everybody. It is my

0:12

great pleasure to bring

0:14

to you, for not many times on the show,

0:17

I have not one but two people with me today. Very

0:20

special people. Yes,

0:22

they're a couple. I'm just gonna say that right off the top so

0:24

you don't have to pretend that you're not. I have Brendan

0:26

and Pema, and I'm gonna have them both introduce

0:28

themselves. Now, and then we're going to have a really

0:30

fun conversation around relationships,

0:33

relationships and business. We're going to hear some

0:35

dating stories. I think we're going to put

0:37

Brendan in the hot seat a little bit because now we've pressed

0:39

record and we can do that. So Brendan,

0:42

Pam, I'm so glad you're here. Welcome. Thanks for being here.

0:45

Thanks so much for having us, Jason. It's great to be here. Yeah.

0:48

Yeah. So cool. So let's get right into

0:50

it. Cause we've got a lot to talk about. So first of all,

0:52

these are fellow Brooklynites. So East

0:55

coasters, Brooklyn, Brooklyn.

0:57

Awesome. Let's start.

1:00

By having you two share with us

1:02

what you want people to know about you right off

1:04

the top. You can

1:07

go ahead. All right, Pema gave me permission

1:09

to go first. Permission to go. Word. This sounds good to

1:11

go. What you want us to know is you need permission

1:13

from Pema. It's perfect. There we go. That's how you keep the

1:15

relationship strong. Yeah. So

1:18

first of all, Jason, thanks for having us. And

1:20

my name is Brendan Barker. I grew

1:22

up in Massachusetts and the suburbs there

1:25

currently live in Brooklyn. As Jason

1:27

mentioned I started my career in sales,

1:29

worked in a bit in financial services, then in technology.

1:32

And then I. Got laid off back in 2018,

1:35

which for me was a huge blessing in disguise. It allowed

1:37

me to finally go out on my own, originally

1:39

as a coach, which then snowballed

1:41

into doing professional speaking,

1:43

training, consulting. And

1:46

now as you'll learn in a bit Pema and I worked

1:48

together, both doing speaking and training

1:50

for a lot of clients around the country and around the

1:52

world. So. We're also married.

1:54

We'll talk more about that, but that's a super high

1:56

level and we live in Prospect Heights, Brooklyn. Prospect

1:59

Heights, Brooklyn. Thanks, Brendan. Pema,

2:02

what did he get right and what did he get wrong? That's the important

2:05

question to start with here. I

2:07

think he got pretty much everything right

2:09

about himself. Thanks

2:11

again, Jason, Pema. Pema Sharpa.

2:15

And I come from Nepal, a little bit further

2:17

away than suburbs in Boston,

2:20

actually born and raised there. I

2:22

came to America for college and

2:24

my academic career, which was

2:27

pretty much most of my time in America

2:29

was spent studying mindfulness

2:33

from psychological and philosophical

2:35

perspective. And that's been something

2:37

that I have personally been very

2:39

passionate about because it has been

2:41

a practice. That was

2:44

rooted in me from where I come from, but

2:46

also really seeing the impact

2:48

of mindfulness just to live

2:51

well, to succeed and live in a more

2:53

deliberate way. So it had, it

2:55

sort of became my academic

2:57

curiosity and in the past

3:00

few years, I sort of left the

3:02

more research and academic world

3:04

to bring my knowledge and. So

3:09

for the past few years, I've been working with

3:11

different corporations on topics

3:13

around performance, leadership,

3:16

well being, and also implicit

3:18

bias. And I get to

3:20

work on all of it with

3:23

Brendan being my husband, we've been married

3:25

for a year. So it's been super fun

3:27

all around. Yeah. Thanks.

3:30

We are going to talk about your business

3:32

that you run together. I happen to know quite a bit about

3:34

it. But before we do that, we're going to get

3:36

to know the two of you a little bit and hear a

3:38

little bit of the origin story. I

3:41

hear a kid from Massachusetts,

3:43

kid, I don't know if you were a kid when you met, I hear,

3:45

well, I can make the, I can make the connection

3:48

to where you may have met since you went to school in

3:50

Massachusetts. But I'm so

3:52

curious Pema, this is for you to start.

3:55

Did you, when did you know that you wanted to come

3:57

to the United States for your ed, for your higher education?

4:01

Was that a thing you'd always strive for?

4:04

Yeah, that's interesting question. So, Nepal, it's

4:06

very far away. And there are,

4:08

at least when I was growing up, there were

4:10

not that many opportunities

4:13

for somebody who sort of pursues

4:16

academia and then grows their

4:18

career in that way. So,

4:21

coming to America was something that was always.

4:25

The only option in some ways, and

4:27

my parents, I was the first one to

4:29

ever go to college. I am the

4:32

fourth of five kids.

4:34

So I was one of the youngest, but the first

4:36

one to ever go to college. My parents

4:38

never went to school. So the

4:40

only trajectory that was

4:43

available to me was coming to America.

4:45

So that was something I always knew every

4:48

exam I did. Every time I studied

4:50

was with the goal of coming to America.

4:53

So it was a big deal when

4:55

I got the visa to come

4:57

to America. I can imagine. Yeah.

4:59

And you, and you came in when you were

5:02

undergraduate at 18

5:04

or whenever you were ready to come, you started

5:06

and came to America? Yes.

5:09

I was 18, just finished high school

5:11

and came to America and found

5:13

myself the university I went

5:15

to. I was in upstate New York

5:18

in the middle of nowhere very

5:20

different than where I come from.

5:22

And when I was in Nepal, I thought I knew

5:25

English, but turns out when I came

5:27

to America, I didn't know much English.

5:29

And one of the biggest challenges I had, apart

5:32

from being away from family and cultural

5:34

difference, was trying to understand

5:37

what these professors were saying, because they were

5:39

speaking so fast. So it was an

5:41

interesting learning curve for me there. Yeah,

5:44

not to stereotype too much, but that's interesting to come

5:46

to the East Coast, which is

5:48

generally the fastest part of the country for speaking

5:51

and have to You gotta go to Kansas or something. Yeah,

5:54

there you go. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Thanks,

5:56

Pema. Brendan, how about you? So you grew up in

5:58

Massachusetts and you're

6:01

kind of a good American kid, I assume,

6:04

doing your thing. Go Patriots,

6:06

maybe, or Red Sox. And then I'm

6:08

curious, when did you two meet?

6:12

Yeah. So for me, like, as you mentioned, I grew

6:14

up in Massachusetts. I also went to school in upstate

6:17

New York, but not where Pema went. She went to

6:19

Hartwick. I went to Syracuse University. Yeah,

6:22

more happening at Syracuse not on the academic side,

6:24

more on the social side. Social and sports

6:27

side. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So

6:29

I went there and then I was in Boston itself

6:31

for five years where I worked in sales and

6:33

in financial services. And actually,

6:36

we didn't meet in Massachusetts although

6:38

our time did overlap there. We

6:40

had never met and we didn't know each other until

6:43

2017. I moved to Brooklyn,

6:46

which was, had been one of my goals

6:48

for the last two years back then. And

6:50

Pema moved from a different part of the city to

6:52

a neighborhood in Brooklyn. And then we,

6:55

seven days later, walked into

6:57

the same bar and met at the

6:59

bar and that's where we... Met

7:02

and we've been dating ever since you met.

7:04

Wait, you've date you've done more than date.

7:07

Let's be very clear Of course, we're

7:09

engaged and married and also

7:11

expecting our first kid actually. Oh,

7:13

you're okay. Congrats. Yes Congratulations.

7:15

Look so you so Interesting.

7:18

So you two actually met in

7:20

a bar? Yes,

7:23

and you know, it's

7:25

actually very interesting because you know Maybe

7:28

people meet at bars, but I don't go to bars.

7:30

I barely drank And certainly

7:33

being a bit good Nepali girl, never

7:35

talked to strangers. That's one of their

7:37

top trainings in Nepal. So that

7:39

was the first time actually

7:41

talking to a stranger at a bar.

7:44

So it just. And I, you know, one for

7:46

one. I was gonna say, Brennan,

7:48

nice work. Well, not one for one

7:50

for me, one for one for her. One for one

7:53

for her. One for one for her. That's

7:55

very, that's... Man, I was not expecting

7:57

that. I was expecting just like, knowing what you

7:59

two do, and kind of circles, like, the different things

8:01

you do. I was not expecting that you would walk into a bar and broke

8:03

into meet each other. That is very romantic

8:06

and very rom com y. I love it. It

8:08

was I think just a serendipitous encounter.

8:11

I went to the bar alone just to, like,

8:13

check out the neighborhood and then Pema walked in with her sister

8:15

and her friend who she was showing the town, so...

8:18

And then she sat down next to me and I

8:20

remember she was trying all the different

8:22

drinks and there was beer and cider and

8:24

wine and she didn't like any of it that they

8:26

had to offer and I thought, this, this woman's

8:28

pretty interesting. I should talk to her. Ha

8:32

Her pickiness attracted you. I like that. That's funny.

8:34

Yeah. So then you two, you two met,

8:37

you obviously went out. Have you been together

8:39

pretty much ever since then? Yes.

8:42

Yeah. Yeah. On that first night, we

8:44

had a lot of the things that like we have in common

8:46

came out in that conversation. So the fact

8:48

that we go to school in Massachusetts

8:51

and I was from there and that we both had an interest in meditation

8:53

and mindfulness. Those things were like

8:56

easy talking points and

8:58

let us to even just want to be friends at the beginning.

9:00

And then it grew from there. Yeah.

9:03

So let's talk now about

9:06

the business that you two run together. Here

9:08

we are in 2023. I mean,

9:11

I'm really interested in how you make that

9:13

all work. I've shared this on the show a few times

9:16

that my wife and I will never be able to do

9:18

that. And we were both pretty

9:20

clear about that. We're too similar.

9:23

If you want to learn more about my wife,

9:25

she's interviewed me and I've interviewed her on this show.

9:27

You can look up those episodes. But curious, when

9:31

you started dating and you realize like, oh, like there's something

9:33

here, right? Like this, this could be my person.

9:35

And did you ever have, do you remember

9:37

the moment or when you started talking about like, well, what would

9:40

our work life look like together? Or

9:42

like, would, would you be interested in going into business

9:44

together? Was it deliberate or was it more

9:46

of an organic, like, oh wait, we're in business

9:48

together? I think it was

9:50

very much organic. And in fact,

9:52

we had, I mean, when we met, we

9:54

were doing something completely different. Brendan

9:57

was doing a job. I was mostly in research

9:59

world. So no overlap in

10:01

terms of, you know, we were not

10:03

even running our own business. And then

10:05

Brendan was the one who first went into

10:08

his business. Do you want to talk

10:10

about that? Yeah, so we started,

10:12

just timeline we met October

10:15

2017 and

10:17

we started dating from there and then we moved

10:19

in together actually one year later, 11

10:21

months later. So we were

10:23

I guess, I don't know, in retrospect, maybe moving fast, but

10:25

it felt very real at the time. Ew! And

10:28

then that same time when we moved in,

10:31

I got laid off from my job the exact

10:33

same weekend. So it was almost

10:35

like a whole new beginning for me

10:38

personally, because I moved in with my girlfriend

10:40

and also I got laid off from this job

10:42

that was stressing me out as Pema can

10:44

attest to. So it was like my

10:46

chance. Cause I had been thinking for years

10:48

about trying to start my own business, but didn't have the courage

10:51

or really to have the push to do it.

10:53

So I started. Just

10:55

from that day, creating my

10:57

own business as a career coach at the beginning, of

10:59

course, it's changed a lot since then. But

11:01

there was no intention to work

11:03

with Pema. She had her, her space.

11:06

I had what I was doing and she was just super,

11:08

super supportive. And it wasn't

11:10

until about

11:13

a year and a half later that

11:16

it made sense organically

11:18

based on my success to have her come

11:20

in and share expertise on mindfulness

11:22

and all the things that she mentioned earlier. So, and

11:26

I think it's also worth mentioning

11:28

the part where in the beginning,

11:30

even when I started my business, it was still

11:33

two different entities and. Later,

11:35

it's sort of organically sort of grew together,

11:37

and it's been about a year or

11:39

a little over a year that now we have brand

11:42

of two people together, and we

11:44

are working in that way. But we've always been working

11:46

together. And the way I started

11:49

my business was I was in the research

11:51

world. I

11:54

had been doing well

11:56

in terms of my academics and

11:58

where it was all leading, but

12:00

I did not have clarity as

12:02

to how I would make myself

12:05

a productive member of the society

12:08

and also find fulfillment

12:10

in what I was doing by actually seeing the result.

12:12

Because a lot of times if you're just within

12:14

scholarship and academia, One

12:17

of the things you can start feeling is

12:19

you're theorizing and thinking about things a lot,

12:21

but where is the real impact happening?

12:23

And of course, also when you

12:25

are an adult, you should also start working

12:27

and actually make real money. So there was

12:29

a lot of lack of clarity for me.

12:32

And that's when Brendan stepped in,

12:34

when he saw that I was. Very

12:36

confused in a lot of distress and

12:39

without me actually thinking, Oh,

12:41

I want to start a business. And this might

12:43

make sense. It was him who came to me and said,

12:46

guess what? No, not guess what,

12:48

but you have, guess

12:51

what, guess what you're in business.

12:53

No, that doesn't, so

12:56

he. He helped me structure

12:59

my content. I had the expertise,

13:02

but he helped me shape it into something

13:04

that was marketable. And he was the one who

13:06

sold me in the beginning. It was him

13:08

bringing me the business and me delivering

13:10

it. And then the confidence

13:13

I got from doing well.

13:15

And these clients were

13:17

wanting to work with me again and doing

13:19

bigger program is what allowed me

13:21

to start a business. And

13:23

then. We've been working

13:25

sort of separately, but together

13:27

for a while, but then the

13:30

past over a year, we've

13:32

really combined it in a sense

13:34

that we're, it's an organization

13:36

where you do this part.

13:38

Of course, we have our delivering and

13:40

content creation that we do on our own, but

13:43

it's our brand together.

13:45

Now, thanks Pema. Thank

13:47

you. And thank you, Brendan. What I want to talk

13:49

about next, what I'm curious about

13:51

is. Let's let's like layout for

13:54

the audience what it is that you all speak

13:56

on and do some of the just some of the offerings

13:58

you have so that people understand both

14:00

of your expertise and then we're going to get into

14:02

the really meaty stuff, which is how

14:04

the heck do you work together and make this work

14:07

in what can be a very stressful

14:10

type of space, which is A

14:12

month a month and so yeah, either

14:14

you, whoever wants to just share like a little bit

14:16

about some of the things that you deliver

14:18

to your clients and Brandon, you said you work with global clients

14:21

over the world, Pam, you said there's a lot of expertise there.

14:23

What are some of the things that you work on clients with? Yeah,

14:27

sure. So, well,

14:29

as Pema mentioned at the beginning, we had. Sort

14:32

of separate platforms. And now it's been, it's

14:34

been emerging. So, you know, for me

14:36

background in the last five years of growing my

14:38

own business, working with clients all over the world,

14:40

and also designing my own

14:43

business around my lifestyle has given me

14:45

a lot of expertise around how to teach other

14:47

people like small business owners, salespeople,

14:50

how to do the same. So some of the main topics

14:52

I speak on currently are things related

14:54

to entrepreneurship, things related

14:56

to emotional intelligence, and also this

14:59

thing that I call lifestyle design, which

15:01

I got from Tim Ferriss is for a work week,

15:03

which is basically what I mentioned, taking

15:05

your work life and making sure it fits into your overall

15:07

life. So those are like the three main areas

15:09

that I teach on mostly for personal experience, but

15:11

also for many of the coaching consulting clients have helped

15:13

to implement those. And then I'll let

15:16

Pema share, you know, her topics. Well, I actually

15:18

have a question before we go to Pema. By

15:20

the way, I think that's hilarious that you, it's

15:23

like very ironic and funny that you teach

15:25

that and you're married to your business partner. Because

15:28

like some people, their life by design would be like, no.

15:31

And some people would be like, yes, please. Oh,

15:33

yeah. I'm sure that's, yeah. So Brennan,

15:36

I was gonna say for us, it's like, never people

15:38

do think that, right? How could you?

15:41

work with the person that you live with,

15:43

that you're going to have a baby with

15:45

and all that. But for us, it was, that

15:47

was never even a question. Like it almost seemed

15:49

like it'd be better if we could work

15:51

together than if we had to go do two separate

15:54

careers. So yeah, maybe it's a

15:56

different picture than what other people have at home,

15:58

but that's what it's always felt like for us, right? No,

16:01

we're actually, and we're going to dig into that in a minute.

16:03

Brendan, before we go to you, Pema, I just had another question

16:05

for you, Brendan, about Kind

16:07

of like, when you speak on

16:09

that, what's the

16:11

big problem that people

16:14

have that would need that sort of

16:16

expertise? Like what, what's in

16:18

the, what in your experience of coaching, consulting,

16:20

speaking, doing workshops, what's the big problem

16:22

that people have where they don't believe they can design their life?

16:26

The biggest problem is that people aren't prioritizing

16:29

what's essential, and they're working

16:31

on all these things that are more

16:34

noise. Like, we're always trying to teach these

16:36

people how to separate the signal from the noise, which

16:38

means what matters in your life, what are your core values,

16:41

what do you want to spend your time doing, versus what's

16:43

all this other stuff that you're spending your

16:45

time on, even though it's things that

16:48

really, when it comes down to it, don't support

16:50

your overall life goals. So, like, for

16:52

example, one of the things we try to teach people to do

16:54

is At the beginning of each year, outline

16:57

like what are your three big goals as it relates

16:59

to business, as it relates to family, and as

17:01

it relates to personal goals, because most people never

17:03

do that, right? Just year after year, you kind of follow

17:05

the same patterns. You have all these bad habits from

17:07

the past. You never change course. Next thing

17:09

you know, you're 60, and it's just in

17:12

the past, and you've done your career, right?

17:14

So it's instead, like, let's spend time now

17:16

thinking strategically. What does that perfect

17:18

life look like? How do you then put

17:20

the things into the puzzle in the right order

17:23

to make your life? And

17:25

so that's what we've been doing personally

17:27

for years and it's had great effects for us and that's what

17:29

I help other people see and then

17:31

do. It's amazing. Yeah, that

17:33

is a much needed message. Pema,

17:36

how about you? So

17:39

my topic really revolves

17:41

around, again, mindfulness. But

17:44

from the perspective of neuroscience,

17:47

but also the philosophical, the deep

17:49

logical, almost qualitative understanding

17:52

of reality. So looking

17:55

at mindfulness from that perspective,

17:58

and then looking at people's problems, whether

18:00

it's related to performance, well being,

18:03

leadership, communication. Implicit

18:06

bias. It's helping

18:08

people see the problem and deconstruct

18:10

it in a way that they can see where

18:12

the logical holes or problems

18:15

are and then introducing mindfulness

18:17

as a way to correct them so that

18:19

the answer is coming from them. And

18:21

so that they are more available

18:24

and skilled to. Problem

18:26

solved in a deliberate way, as opposed

18:29

to how our environment would

18:31

have us or with their

18:34

aspect of our mind. So distracted

18:36

by all of like, said noise. So

18:38

that's primarily what I get to do

18:41

in my job. So

18:43

Pema, the topic

18:45

of mindfulness is everywhere. I

18:49

would assert that most

18:51

people don't know what it actually means.

18:54

Or they relate to it as, Oh, I meditate or I do

18:56

something. So since we have you here

18:59

and you've done the scientific study

19:01

of mindfulness as well, I'd love

19:03

to glean some expertise from you around like

19:05

how, like what does it mean to you and

19:08

what might be misunderstood about it? But

19:11

the topic of mindfulness. Yeah,

19:13

absolutely. I think it is such

19:16

a great time to be in right now,

19:18

given all the robust

19:20

research and understanding and scholarship

19:22

that has been. Dedicated

19:25

to mindfulness, but also a

19:27

negative consequence of that is it is

19:29

such a popular topic

19:32

that there's a lot of misunderstanding.

19:34

So 1 of the misunderstand 1

19:36

of the major area misunderstanding,

19:39

I think, with mindfulness is they

19:41

think it's people think it's sort of. Like

19:44

stress relief only, right? Like you just

19:47

need mindful or

19:50

something like that. And of course, there's

19:52

an element of stress relief, but it

19:54

is a small, small

19:56

byproduct of living your

19:58

life in a more deliberate way. So

20:01

the way I understand mindfulness is

20:03

a moment to moment awareness

20:06

of things as it is, whether

20:08

it's your mind, the way it's thinking, whether

20:10

it's your environment, the way it is, or the

20:12

action that you are taking. In

20:15

that particular moment, for

20:17

the most part, we are not aware

20:19

of what our minds are thinking or the things we are

20:21

doing. And then it's after the fact,

20:23

we think, oh, why did I act that way?

20:25

Or I spent the whole day doing something

20:28

that made me feel so. Terrible.

20:30

And I did get things done or whatever it

20:32

is, right? We are allowing the external

20:34

world to drive us and

20:37

even just as dangerously. We're

20:39

allowing our impulses to

20:42

drive us that impulse to constantly try

20:44

to comfort ourselves, entertain ourselves,

20:47

numb ourselves. So mindfulness

20:49

is a way of sort of taking

20:51

reign of our minds and living in

20:53

a more deliberate way and has

20:55

amazing byproducts performance.

20:58

Being present, living life more fully,

21:01

and well being, and stress relief, and all

21:03

of it. But the key

21:05

point is living life in a more deliberate

21:08

way, and seeing reality for what

21:10

it is. Yeah. One

21:12

thing that I learned about mindfulness, and

21:14

I'm curious in both of your opinions on this, is the idea

21:17

of not assigning value to anything. Like

21:20

something like something happens in

21:22

your life or in a loved one's life and

21:24

not actually saying that's good or that's bad That's

21:26

positive that negative it just is in

21:28

the moment and because our I

21:31

think scientifically and correct me if I'm wrong

21:33

Are we're really good at assigning

21:35

value to everything because it's kind of how humans have survived

21:37

that's dangerous That's not but we don't necessarily

21:39

need to do that as much anymore And

21:42

then with the assigning of values

21:44

comes for most people emotions associated

21:47

with those values So I'm

21:49

curious if that's, if, if I'm way off of that

21:51

or if that's something, cause I've had a couple other people on the show

21:53

that we've talked a little bit about this and that was

21:55

my understanding of, but I'm curious to hear from you about

21:57

it. Yeah. I can do it.

22:00

Okay. That's definitely part

22:02

of it and it's accurate. We can't

22:05

help but think in a dualistic manner.

22:07

Yes, no, me, them,

22:09

good, bad. That's the most simplistic

22:11

way of thinking. And at the core of

22:14

all of it lies our. Inherent

22:17

desire to be, to survive,

22:20

to exist. Right? So

22:22

that anything that threatens our identity

22:24

or our well being we

22:27

sort of Don't like it

22:29

and things that we think

22:32

fills us. We like it, but

22:35

the caveat is we're

22:37

not very good at knowing what

22:39

is actually good for us. So let's say

22:41

for example, our world today, you

22:44

know, fame, money, power.

22:46

I mean, not to say that as a mindfulness

22:48

trainer, I don't go for it. I am very

22:51

much in the thick of it, working on it.

22:53

I love it just as much as the next person.

22:56

But we think it's the best thing we work towards

22:59

it. It feels right, right? From any

23:01

perspective. It's like you're fulfilling your

23:03

life's duty, whatever it is, but

23:06

they're actually from an inherent

23:08

perspective. They're actually

23:10

not that beneficial. They trap you.

23:13

They make you more attached.

23:15

The. Confuse you,

23:17

you know, the sort of busy you

23:19

away from what really matters,

23:21

which is your freedom and your ability

23:23

to live life, you

23:26

know, in, in, in alignment

23:28

with reality. So that's

23:30

the sort of the friction

23:33

in our existence is we're not

23:35

very good at assigning value

23:37

to what is actually beneficial to

23:39

us. So, you know, often, oftentimes.

23:43

Stripping away from all of those extra things,

23:45

actually it's beneficial, but who

23:47

wants to do that? Yeah, well also,

23:50

American culture, I mean, we're bombarded with

23:52

all of, all of those things you

23:54

just mentioned and more every single

23:56

day. Things that if you

23:59

take a step back and look, don't matter at all.

24:01

Like don't actually matter to survival or even really matter

24:04

to our happiness in the long term, like advertising

24:06

and marketing and all those things. It's

24:08

every single day, every single day. Yeah.

24:11

And there's certain things that we are, you

24:13

know, desiring, but also

24:15

those desires, like we have to look at like what they're

24:18

based on. Right. So we're maybe like

24:20

Pamela said, we're desiring money or we're desiring

24:22

some recognition or fame or

24:25

whatever it is, but then like,

24:27

are those desires even something we should

24:29

be striving for? And like

24:31

one example, we were talking about this morning,

24:33

like one of our favorite musical artists, Mac

24:35

Miller. He's a rapper or he's a late

24:37

rapper and he,

24:40

you know, at the beginning of his career, he was 18 years old

24:42

and he was rapping about how he wanted to climb

24:44

to the top, get rich, get famous, be

24:46

the best rapper. And I get all these like

24:48

really light lyrics about how great life was going

24:50

to be when he got there. And then of course

24:52

he got there like within a year or two and

24:54

then thought, you know, fast forward

24:57

2018. Wrapping about

24:59

very different things, basically saying that now

25:01

he's there, life isn't what he thought

25:03

it would be, and it's depressing, and then, you

25:05

know, he accidentally overdosed which is, you know, really

25:07

tragic, because he was a great artist, and we still listen to him all the

25:10

time, but Tetris is an extreme example

25:12

of showing that we think these certain

25:14

things are gonna give us, you know

25:16

are gonna be positive, and But are

25:18

they really? So like Pema said, like, we don't know

25:21

what's the best for us. And if we expect certain

25:23

things for ourselves in our life,

25:25

and we rely on those expectations to feel good about ourselves,

25:28

then we're going to be setting ourselves in the wrong direction. Thank

25:31

you both. Now

25:35

I'm going to talk a little bit about being

25:39

in business together and.

25:43

Running a business like this, it's a speaking business,

25:45

coaching business, you're creating content.

25:47

It sounds like separately, but maybe

25:49

sometimes together, maybe future plans

25:51

to do other things together. Knowing

25:54

that you both know all these principles,

25:57

and as they say, knowing is half the battle. Know

25:59

all these principles, try to live it. It

26:02

is going to be with almost 100% certainty

26:04

that you're not going to agree on everything when you're running

26:06

a business together. I'm

26:08

curious to start there, like more of the tactical

26:10

and then we'll kind of raise it up to some general

26:12

practices that you both have, just

26:15

as people and as business owners, when

26:17

you two run up against something that

26:19

is immovable in each other, because

26:21

you're two humans, you're going to do this, especially as you're married,

26:24

how do you sort that out, especially

26:27

when you're talking about not just your love life,

26:30

your home life, but you're talking about your income and your

26:32

business? What's what kind of frameworks or methodologies

26:35

or does Brendan go sleep? Yeah. Out

26:38

in the street, like whatever the thing is. Like

26:40

what, how do you two address that as people who both

26:42

understand at a high level and frankly

26:44

a low level that you have mindfulness and

26:46

being present to like what might not being said? What, what

26:49

are some things that you have done? Yeah,

26:52

I have some ideas. Do you have some? I have you too.

26:54

Okay. Well, I think one of the things just from like the

26:56

business side is I

26:58

think one of the things we've both been really good at over time

27:01

is detecting what the other person's better

27:03

at than ourselves. Strengths

27:06

and different weaknesses, right? You

27:08

know, like Pema mentioned, like my strength might be on

27:10

like the sales front

27:12

or the, you know, how to create a business

27:15

strategy. And so, you know, when she

27:17

could see that she

27:19

will rely on me to come up with the best solutions

27:21

for those areas, whereas strengths

27:25

or some of them she has many, but some of them, you

27:27

know, things related to finance and. and

27:30

where we're going to spend the money and also

27:32

in mindfulness content. So like all those

27:35

areas, like she's the one that is like

27:37

kind of in charge. And so one

27:39

of the things we did when we, you know, officially

27:41

formed an LLC together was

27:44

that we actually assigned like different roles

27:46

or hats to ourselves. You know, so, you know,

27:48

Brendan's like

27:50

in charge of. Strategy and sales.

27:52

And then Pema is the CFO and CHRO,

27:55

even though we don't have much HR, but she does our 401k.

27:58

Yeah. Okay. She wants a different title, but anyways,

28:00

we literally did that. And

28:03

so it's helped us

28:05

to be like, you know, if I want to go buy a

28:07

marketing software, I have

28:09

to go ask Pema, can we do this? You

28:11

know? So it's kind of like a real company in

28:13

that sense. But anyways, what do you Yeah,

28:17

I think I would even go kind

28:19

of before we started assigning

28:21

these roles. I think from

28:23

the very beginning, at least for me.

28:26

One of the huge

28:28

thing was the absolute

28:31

generosity and support

28:33

that I got from Brendan, where he

28:35

wanted to see me excel. It

28:38

was not a competition. He had my

28:40

best interest in mind, not from the perspective

28:42

of, Hey, we're bringing the revenue together for

28:44

both of us at that point. I was not

28:46

even, we were not even engaged at that

28:48

point, but it was about.

28:51

Seeing me fly and

28:53

then enjoying watching me enjoy

28:57

doing well, growing, learning.

28:59

So then a level of trust

29:02

and respect that I had towards him

29:04

was he has my ultimate

29:06

back link. Yeah, I mean, it

29:08

probably will never happen, but even if we were

29:10

to sort of separate at

29:12

some point. I know that as

29:14

an individual, he would want to

29:17

see me thrive and grow. So he would have

29:19

my best interest in mind at all times.

29:21

So it's very easy for me to

29:23

sort of. Let go of my reign and let

29:25

him run the show in some

29:27

aspects. And he does the same.

29:30

I can, we are bosses in

29:32

different ways. We're both very assertive.

29:34

We're very, we're actually similar in a lot of ways.

29:36

Yeah. So our power dynamic is.

29:39

interesting because I'm a very dominating

29:41

character and so is he, but then we

29:44

are bosses in different areas, even in our

29:46

personal life. I run the show

29:48

in some ways, he runs the show in other

29:50

ways. And of course, like you

29:52

were asking, what do we do when we come across

29:54

those obstacles? Is,

29:57

I mean, we grapple with it for a while. Of course,

29:59

there could be Time

30:01

where we haven't been able to resolve

30:03

it. But at the end, the person

30:06

who is speaking

30:09

sense and makes you know,

30:11

is proposing something productive

30:14

wins. So it could be even in a personal

30:16

matter if at the end of the day

30:18

maybe he's telling me or telling us

30:21

to do something on a weekend

30:23

where we have to spend X number of hours

30:26

doing some productive work. And

30:28

I sounds like me. Yes. I'm

30:31

absolutely resisting it. But if

30:33

the scenario is such that that

30:35

time needs to be put in, he

30:37

eventually wins. But other times,

30:39

if he's just being. Trying

30:42

to be productive and giving into his impulses

30:45

and I say, no, there's no need to

30:47

do that. We can do it in the future

30:50

this weekend. We don't do anything. And

30:52

at that point, I win. So that's

30:55

how we deal with those times

30:57

when we. But heads against

30:59

each other, but heads against each other. The

31:01

word win is

31:04

really interesting. You kept

31:06

using the word win. Win, like, he

31:08

wins, I win. That's interesting. And

31:11

I really appreciate, what I heard in all

31:13

of that was, or is,

31:16

all starts with a very high level of trust.

31:19

That Brendan's got

31:21

his stuff covered, Pema's got her stuff

31:23

covered. And, and

31:27

then when there are, and the other thing

31:29

here, and I think this is a good thing for anybody

31:31

who's in business, whether you're married or just business

31:33

partners is you seem, I've

31:36

talked to other people who run businesses together that are married.

31:38

They don't always have clear lines of delineation. So.

31:42

Either two people are doing the same thing, which

31:44

is very likely to result in butting heads,

31:47

or nobody's doing it. And it sounds

31:49

like you've actually structured it, like

31:51

you almost have an org chart where you're each, like, you're

31:53

each after the org chart, so you actually know what you're supposed

31:55

to be doing. So

31:57

that, I think, is a great lesson for anybody

31:59

who's in business partnership, whether

32:02

it involves, like, being married or just

32:04

doing a business partnership. Yeah,

32:07

that was a great exercise. And also

32:09

just to piggyback on one of Pema's points from earlier

32:11

about the, you know, wanting to,

32:15

me supporting her in her beginning, you

32:17

know, when I started, I didn't, you know, I had zero income,

32:19

zero clients, all this, all this stuff and Pema,

32:21

you know, gave me the go ahead, even though we'd only been dating for one

32:24

year to like chase this dream or chase this

32:26

idea and so, you know, full

32:28

credit to her because I know a lot of other people

32:30

who don't have the support of their partner or

32:32

their partner doesn't believe it will work and then

32:34

they don't Accomplish the goal because they

32:36

didn't have that. So, you know,

32:39

she believed in me and then, then

32:41

it made it easy, or then it was easy for me to believe

32:43

in her once we kind of saw some of the light, but it

32:45

wouldn't have happened if it wasn't both of us in that

32:47

apartment. Studio apartment together

32:50

at the beginning. Yeah. Studio apartment. That's a

32:52

good compressor for relationship issues.

32:54

Like let's get these things out in a studio

32:56

apartment in New York city. That's perfect. Yeah. Studio apartment

32:58

during COVID too. So, oh

33:01

boy. Yeah. That's when we that's when

33:03

we probably grew the most as a couple and as a business, actually.

33:05

Yeah. That's cool. Let's,

33:08

let's wrap up for, for now, just for

33:10

today with a couple things. One,

33:12

love to hear what you all envision is what's next.

33:17

You've already announced publicly. What's

33:19

next is you're adding a, adding a little one

33:21

to the family. So congratulations. What

33:24

else, what do you see? Like, what's the vision for the

33:26

business as you two is mindful people

33:28

move forward and the love to wrap. If you would give

33:30

us some, some of the practices that you

33:32

both like to use or one or the other,

33:34

like to use to keep yourself grounded in present.

33:37

In what can be perceived as a very service

33:39

based business is generally, it's a lot

33:41

of moving parts, a lot of organization. Brandon, you mentioned

33:44

you do the sales. There's a lot of no's in that. Anytime

33:46

you're doing sales. And keeping the, keeping

33:48

it moving forward. So first things first,

33:51

what's what do you all see is what's next in this business?

33:54

I think one of the things that we are

33:56

definitely most excited about in terms

33:58

of the business front is sort

34:01

of coming to our own

34:03

more and more as a

34:05

brand together. So, you

34:07

know, in the beginning we were doing a lot

34:09

of things. And we love all

34:11

of the things that we've been able to accomplish, all

34:13

the contents we've been able to create, all the service

34:16

we've been able to provide. But as

34:18

we ga gain more expertise

34:20

and more confidence, we are

34:22

starting to be more and more honest

34:24

with what really... Inspires

34:27

us and how we really want to impact

34:30

out there and doing it together

34:32

because we found that doing it

34:34

together is so much more impactful

34:37

and beneficial and also, quite

34:39

frankly, fun and fulfilling for us. So

34:42

we, that's, that's the next next

34:44

thing for us. Nice. I just like,

34:46

as we talk about this, I see so many couples like shaking

34:48

their head, like, you know, like, Oh my God, they're

34:50

so, they're full of it, so they're just like

34:53

so, yeah, cringeworthy. Like, who

34:55

are the, who are these two people and are they, is

34:57

this AI Jason talking to or what is it? It's

34:59

like, are they real? But the crazy thing

35:01

is it is real. So, but I can also

35:04

hear the other voice, you know. So

35:06

yeah, those, I mean, just to piggyback off what Pema said

35:08

that's definitely something we're working on is. You know,

35:10

we started as two separate businesses with different

35:12

platforms, and now, you know, we're, we're

35:14

bringing that together. We're actually creating a new website,

35:17

and we created a newsletter recently around

35:19

our joint brand. The new newsletter is called the

35:21

Mindful Minute, and we give people a

35:24

quote, a reflection, and an action,

35:26

all within the mindfulness space and space

35:28

of Buddhist philosophy. So really helping people

35:30

that Don't have much knowledge around mindfulness

35:32

to understand and unpack it with one useful

35:34

lesson each week. So that's like a

35:37

idea of like where our direction's heading

35:39

is forming our joint brand

35:41

in the mindfulness wellness space. And of course,

35:44

we come from different angles. You know, Pema comes from

35:46

her background in Nepal. In

35:48

academia, studying these mindfulness

35:51

principles. And for me, it was almost

35:53

like mindfulness through application. Like you mentioned

35:55

in sales, I was constantly,

35:57

I've been in sales since the beginning of my career, and I still,

36:00

I guess I am in a lot of ways. And, you know, you're

36:02

constantly hitting these. roadblocks

36:05

and you get rejection, rejection, rejection.

36:07

And I used, and I still

36:09

use mindfulness and meditation

36:12

as a way to, you know, see things

36:14

a little bit more clearly as a way to be a little

36:16

bit more resilient and to take things a little bit

36:18

more lightly. And so

36:20

those are all angles that I'll be able to teach from as

36:23

I support Pema in our continuance

36:25

into helping employees and small business owners,

36:28

and more broadly people in the space of

36:30

improving their life in their, in their minds. I

36:33

want to give you, give you both a shout out on

36:35

that newsletter. It's really good, especially for somebody

36:37

like me, where it's

36:39

like, I understand the value of all it, but I kind of need you to

36:41

tell me what to do with it, which I think

36:43

a lot of the development space,

36:46

there's a lot of great concepts, but

36:48

then it's like, but I don't have

36:50

Pema's background or I haven't spent time

36:52

studying this. So. I, I,

36:54

I hear this Buddhist teaching and then I, I

36:56

get something from it, but then what do I actually

36:59

do? And so I really

37:01

just want to acknowledge you both, like, great format, because

37:03

it's useful for me to be like, oh, so like, yes,

37:05

I can, I don't want to have to do the work to think about,

37:07

like, how could I actually implement this today or

37:10

utilize it? Which is really useful,

37:12

especially when you're, I think for a lot of your audience

37:14

that is like that and you live in a place like

37:17

New York is, yes, people are mindful, but also

37:19

people are not mindful in New

37:21

York and the, you know, just all that. So with

37:23

that, let's wrap up and let's talk about

37:26

some practices that you two

37:28

would recommend for anybody listening. Anything that would, they'd

37:30

go. Hey, you know what? I've, I've wanted

37:32

to, like, the things that Pem and Brendon are talking

37:35

about, I want more of that. I'm just not

37:37

really sure where to start. Besides,

37:40

and by the way, this is a straight up plug, besides

37:42

subscribing to the newsletter, Perfect.

37:45

That's a great place to start, but what, yeah, where else do you recommend

37:47

that people would start? I think

37:49

there are various aspects to it. I think

37:51

Brendan, you could speak to

37:53

start starting a business where it does

37:55

not exist, you know, creating something

37:58

where it does not exist. Maybe you can start with that.

38:00

And I have few thoughts around like working

38:02

as a couple or working as a team.

38:05

Oh, I wasn't going to go that angle, but let's see.

38:07

Okay. So. I mean, for me,

38:09

I think some practices that I constantly

38:12

implement, not just from starting a business, but even

38:14

for someone that has a regular job or that,

38:16

you know, maybe they're a freelancer, whatever it is

38:19

for me, I mean, morning

38:21

routine, this is a simple, simple thing,

38:23

but it's my morning routine is critical or

38:25

both of our simple concept. That's

38:28

what's able to execute for most people. Yeah. So we have,

38:30

now we pretty much do everything together, but

38:32

it wasn't always that way. So, you

38:34

know, when I first started to learn more about self

38:36

help, professional development mindfulness

38:39

back when I was like 25. I slowly

38:41

started to implement new techniques to

38:44

bolster my own morning routine so I could have time to

38:46

think more clearly and think about my

38:48

own life and where I wanted to take it. And so

38:50

just a couple of things that I do now in

38:52

order would be things after we

38:54

eat breakfast, basically we will both do

38:57

a five minute meditation together. And

38:59

then that's basically for us and Pema can

39:02

talk more about that specifically is. Sitting

39:04

silently for five minutes with no

39:07

stimulation. So that's the meditation

39:09

we do. And then after that,

39:12

we both go our separate ways and do journaling

39:14

exercises. And for me, I do two separate

39:16

journaling exercises. One that

39:19

is more like a quick, let's say

39:21

three minute bullet points of three

39:23

different topics. One that is grateful

39:25

things I'm grateful for. Another one is any

39:27

recent victories in my life. And the third one's

39:30

informations of what I want to. Bring into

39:32

my life next. So I just do like a brain

39:34

dump of those things. It takes up like a, you

39:36

know, quarter of a page in my journal.

39:39

And then that part's done. And then the other

39:41

journal I do, which I think is also really important,

39:43

it's just a one page

39:46

reflection and it could be about

39:49

anything. So I actually got this from the artist's

39:51

way. Julia,

39:54

I'm forgetting her name, the, the author, but the

39:56

book was called the artist's way and she does a three page

39:59

daily journal where I could just start anywhere

40:01

and weave around. And I find that it's almost

40:03

like my own personal therapy of

40:05

working through whatever problems I'm doing. Let's

40:08

say I got a rejection at work and I

40:10

just kind of go through it. And by the end of the page, I'm like,

40:12

this doesn't matter, you know? So those are like

40:14

things that I do each morning before I start.

40:16

And I don't even go into email. Neither of us do,

40:19

you know, nine o'clock at the earliest. I mean,

40:21

today, not even till lunch. I mean, our business

40:23

is different than some people's, but we're trying

40:25

to stay out of it. So we can think deeper, work

40:27

on bigger things. And that's been the biggest

40:29

difference for me in my whole life. Once

40:32

I started to have that morning routine so I can create

40:34

space and think of bigger ideas

40:36

that impact our lives. Thanks,

40:38

Brandon. There's so much gold in there. Pema,

40:42

what do you have for us? Yeah,

40:44

so I I do everything Brendan does.

40:46

I don't do the one page brain

40:48

dump. Maybe next year. Next

40:50

year. I've done it from time to time.

40:53

I'm somebody who needs to keep switching things up.

40:55

I think meditation and gratitude is something

40:58

that has stayed consistent. But other than that,

41:00

things switch up. I think one

41:03

of the big things. Big

41:05

thing, if we're trying to accomplish anything

41:07

in life, we think about the hard work

41:09

and how, you know, the direct

41:12

route to it, but oftentimes

41:14

what you don't realize is. Our

41:17

creativity, our, that

41:20

muscle to believe in ourselves and the possibility

41:23

really comes from a level of

41:25

mental well being. So really taking

41:27

care of your happiness,

41:30

your health, that perspective

41:32

is so important. And

41:34

of course there are ups and downs

41:36

in everybody's life. And whether you're not

41:39

working, whether you're working as a couple, whether

41:41

you're working as a team, or

41:43

you're not working together with your couple But

41:45

you, you have someone it's

41:47

so beneficial to support

41:50

each other because there are times when I'm

41:52

down and Brendan somehow. Okay.

41:54

And he's down somehow.

41:56

We are seesaws. It always works out

41:59

because the other person can support you.

42:01

So that level of well being

42:04

and feeling okay is

42:07

a game changer when it comes to being able

42:09

to face that rejection or. Being

42:11

able to put in that hard work when you don't

42:13

feel like it. So really taking

42:15

care of your spirit in a

42:17

way is I think very

42:20

important and it's different for everyone.

42:22

Yes. Do meditation. Everybody should be

42:24

doing meditation by this by now.

42:26

We know enough. To

42:28

say that everybody has to chip in at least

42:30

two to five minutes a day. But other

42:33

than that, everybody's different. There must

42:35

be something that fires someone

42:37

up and something else

42:39

for someone else. So whatever it is,

42:42

don't be cheap to give that to

42:44

yourself and think, Oh, I need to be productive right

42:46

now. No, you need to take care

42:48

of you first and then everything else

42:50

aligns. So keeping that top

42:53

of mind is important. I think excellent.

42:57

Thank you both so much for being on today.

43:00

You have the official invite to come back on

43:02

and you can bring the little one and talk about

43:04

anything else you want to talk about. I was,

43:06

I was laughing and I'm sure you've,

43:08

I know you've already thought about this from like two

43:11

to five minutes of uninterrupted, uninterrupted

43:13

time when you have a baby. If

43:16

you figure out how to do that, please,

43:20

I will have you back on and you'll be, if you can

43:22

write the book on that, but that is. That's

43:24

what screwed up my meditation practice for when we

43:26

had our second child is like, but

43:29

yeah Want to say in a personal way congratulations

43:31

on everything you've built so far. Thanks for being a great

43:33

role model Thanks for bringing a

43:35

wonderful little human in the world here soon It's

43:37

gonna be that you get to raise to be mindful

43:40

and make an impact just like the two of you and can't

43:42

wait to Have you back on again soon? Yeah.

43:44

Thanks for having us Jason. It's been a blast and

43:47

we're looking forward to it We'll report back on the

43:49

how meditation goes after baby's born sometime

43:52

in December. Yeah, you'll you'll you'll you

43:54

both just drop you'd be like No

43:57

In a year, we'll have a little bit more understanding

44:00

of how we did. Yeah, exactly.

44:02

It's all, it's all good. However it goes.

44:04

Yeah. Thank you so much, Brendan. Thank you, Pema. Thank

44:07

you, Jason. Take care. Thank you.