0:13

Hey, everybody. I'm

0:16

back again. Second time guest

0:18

this year, Stephen

0:20

Matthew Clark. Stephen, I think

0:22

I had, I think our first conversation

0:24

was, it felt like the summer

0:27

because I remember being really hot and

0:30

I've gotten to know Stephen past that conversation

0:32

and just really come to admire a lot of the work you're doing and

0:34

wanted to have you come back on to

0:36

the show here and talk with all of us

0:39

about two things today.

0:43

Number one is. What's

0:45

misunderstood about the prison

0:48

system and prison reform?

0:51

What are things that, I think I'm

0:53

speaking to like North Americans

0:55

for the most part, U. S. and Canada,

0:58

what are things that we maybe believe

1:01

are true about the prison life that maybe aren't so much?

1:04

So that's the first thing I want to talk to you about today, Stephen.

1:06

And then the second thing, is

1:09

the work that you're doing to make

1:11

a difference for your fellow, fellow

1:13

incarcerated folks, not just

1:16

in Maine where you are. And I'm going to have you introduce yourself

1:18

again and give us a little context about who you are and why you're here

1:20

for those who didn't listen the first time and

1:22

what kind of work you're doing and what can make a difference.

1:24

So I want to say on a personal level,

1:27

I'm really glad to have you back on. I know I

1:29

got a lot of feedback on that first episode.

1:31

It's very powerful for me. Really shook

1:33

me. I, I, I trust that you got

1:35

some great feedback about that as well. So Steven,

1:37

welcome back, first of all, like

1:40

where are you joining us from today in the world?

1:43

And maybe get the audience just a little bit

1:45

about who you are and why you

1:47

are well suited to talk

1:49

about those two topics.

1:53

Well, Jason, first off thank you. Thank

1:55

you so much. Thank you to all

1:57

the Anybody

1:59

in the audience, everybody that's listening to

2:01

the show that had an interest for me coming back,

2:04

and I think probably

2:06

first just to discuss with you, I'm

2:08

actually in a maximum security prison

2:10

right now. I'm in my prison cell zooming

2:13

in with you and doing this podcast

2:15

with you. I've been here for the past

2:17

18 years, um,

2:20

I've been in a maximum security prison here

2:22

in Maine, and Over

2:24

the past 18 years, I have worked

2:27

diligently to understand myself

2:29

better, to atone

2:31

for the choices that put me here, and

2:34

to make a difference in the world, to give

2:36

back and to try to create change

2:39

within the system. And

2:42

also, you know, over the course of time,

2:44

I've worked, as we talked about last

2:47

podcast, I've worked to earn several

2:49

different degrees and several different certifications.

2:53

Many of. And much of the research

2:56

that I've done has revolved around

2:58

the system of mass incarceration. So

3:00

I can gain an understanding

3:02

of how to create solutions. I

3:05

believe in falling in love with the problem

3:07

to create the solutions. So

3:09

really falling in love with some of the problems

3:12

that are here at the main state prison,

3:14

but also in the prison

3:16

system overall. Yeah.

3:18

So just a couple of things there, Steven.

3:21

One, if you want to hear the story.

3:24

Of why Steven is recording

3:26

with me right here today on November 21st,

3:29

2023. We

3:31

cover that in the previous episode. We're not going to talk about that

3:33

today. We already talked about that. The

3:35

second thing, and I do want to address this again.

3:38

is it is unique for

3:41

somebody who's sitting in a maximum security prison

3:44

in their cell to be

3:46

on zoom and have an internet connection and

3:48

i've seen what you have a nice microphone

3:51

you have a you have technology that's

3:53

unique we cover a little bit of this on the

3:55

on the previous episode as well but i would

3:57

like to talk about What it is about

4:00

Maine that makes it unique as a lead

4:02

into some of the things that we maybe

4:04

like the general understanding of prison or the lack of

4:06

understanding. So what is it that makes it unique

4:08

that has you and I become friends, talk

4:11

on zoom, be able to look at each other and record podcasts

4:13

because number one, number one

4:15

thing, if somebody said, Hey, do you want to interview somebody

4:17

who's in prison and from their jail

4:19

cell, I would say that's unlikely that They're

4:22

going to have the technology to do so, at least on video,

4:24

but that's not true. Number

4:26

one stereotype is what do we see? Oh, I could come

4:28

visit you and I could pick up this weird, this

4:30

phone and you're going to be behind glass and we

4:32

can have a quick conversation and then the guard's going to say

4:34

enough and that's the way it's going to go.

4:37

That's not how you and I are communicating today. I am

4:39

not in Maine. I'm here in New York and you're in Maine.

4:41

So that's the first thing. So let's talk about

4:44

what's created this environment for you to be able to

4:47

be here with us today. Man,

4:49

such a good question. And, and. This

4:52

is an important answer as well.

4:54

I feel like so you

4:57

think about the system. First off, let's just talk

4:59

about the problem. We

5:02

have a 77 percent recidivism

5:04

rate. What that means

5:06

close to eight out of 10 people that get

5:08

out of prison will get out in

5:11

return. Most of it's for technical violations.

5:15

Because they didn't have human, social,

5:17

and financial capital to succeed in

5:19

society. They had no hope, so they fall

5:22

backwards and they come back. They

5:24

go to what's They're what they're used

5:26

to and what they know. So

5:28

with that, would that be in a problem

5:32

leadership, the

5:34

leadership in Maine, we

5:36

are underneath the leadership

5:39

of Commissioner Randy Liberty, Commissioner

5:42

Randall Liberty is a

5:45

heart centered person that

5:48

has been in leadership roles for most

5:50

of his life, whether it be

5:52

the military, or it Be

5:54

the police department that he worked for for

5:56

a long period of time. His

5:59

leadership has opened doors that

6:01

never would have been opened. And in

6:03

fact, I get to say this, his

6:05

leadership, the ripples

6:07

of his leadership are being felt throughout

6:10

the entire Nation right

6:12

now because there's other prison systems following

6:14

suit with the work that he's doing. How

6:17

am I on zoom with you? Well, that's a really

6:19

good question. Thank god for commissioner

6:22

liberty in warden. Matthew Magnusson

6:24

my warden matt. I call

6:26

him matt believe it or not This

6:29

guy is so progressively minded. He's

6:31

responsible. He makes smart choices

6:35

so Saying that, over

6:37

the past 18 years, I've earned an associate's,

6:40

like I said, two bachelor's, a master's degree.

6:42

I'm currently working on a Ph.

6:44

D. I've worked with over 1,

6:47

600 people in the system of mass incarceration,

6:50

facilitating groups. I

6:52

have really worked to change my life

6:55

and lead by example in this place.

6:57

And I think that is one of the leading

6:59

factors why I'm in my prison

7:01

cell right now, able to be

7:04

on a zoom call with you recording

7:06

this video about the awakening and

7:08

about the work that we're doing.

7:11

Yeah. So it's you've

7:13

proven that this is, you're using

7:16

this for good, the technology for good,

7:18

that you're part of your education and the

7:20

work you're doing. Excellent.

7:22

Yeah, we, we talked a little bit about this for those listening

7:25

on the podcast as well, like what

7:27

Maine does differently, because

7:29

this is not, if we kind of lead into

7:31

the next part of the conversation, I think

7:33

the general person who's seen a movie or television

7:35

show does not see somebody doing a podcast from

7:37

their jail cell. And not only being

7:40

a guest, but you're a host of a podcast

7:42

too. And you do video content.

7:44

Amazing. So let's kind of move into there

7:46

and talk about, let's call

7:49

this part of the episode, Steven. And like things

7:51

that. Things that are misunderstood

7:54

or things that things that the public does

7:56

not understand or think

7:58

we understand that we don't so I'll

8:01

But it's actually turn this over to you because I don't understand

8:03

so I'm gonna be looking for you to

8:04

educate us Yeah, well,

8:07

let's let's just look at what the public

8:09

does understand and last night We J

8:12

and I Jason and I were having this conversation

8:14

a little bit earlier Last

8:16

night I was researching, I'm interested,

8:18

why is public perception

8:20

the way that it is with people

8:23

in prisons? So,

8:25

we think of like Nike, when you think of

8:27

Nike, what do you think of, Jason?

8:30

Michael Jordan, Nike Airs, Just Do

8:32

It, branding, athletic

8:35

wear, shoes, shoes, shoes. That's

8:37

it, you think of the swoosh, and you think of

8:39

Just Do It. And that's

8:41

really the marketing campaign that Nike has

8:44

put out there. They have embedded in our consciousness.

8:47

Just do it the swoosh sports

8:50

sports sports. So when we reflect on

8:52

Nike, we reflect on shoes. We

8:54

reflect on Michael Jordan. We reflect

8:56

on just do it. That

8:58

is what arises in our consciousness

9:01

subconsciously because it's so

9:03

embedded within us. So therefore,

9:06

if you think of prisons, what do you think

9:08

of? I mean, being completely honest, outside

9:10

of me, Yeah. When you think

9:12

of what a prison is, what do you think of? Yeah.

9:16

And I

9:16

love this. I love this format because I'm going to be the guinea

9:18

pig for what probably a lot of people think. When I think

9:20

of being in prison, I think

9:22

of violence. I think

9:24

of being scared.

9:27

I think of having

9:30

your crew that you roll

9:32

with to keep you safe, like you make alliances.

9:34

I'm just thinking of things I've seen in movies and television

9:37

shows. I think of abusive guards.

9:39

I think of terrible food. I think

9:41

of potentially

9:44

abusing things like isolation

9:47

or doing things

9:49

that would, I think are probably technically considered

9:52

illegal, but would almost be like human rights

9:54

abuse. I think of,

9:57

I do think of a lot of good folks.

9:59

I think like Shawshank Redemption, like, Oh, there's

10:01

a library and I can get education.

10:03

And if I want to, life in

10:05

prison can be, you should, I'm

10:08

sorry, Jason.

10:09

Go ahead. You're good. And

10:14

I think of. What

10:17

else do I think about? I think about the

10:20

famous scene in all the movies and television

10:23

shows of visiting somebody in prison,

10:25

and either you and I have a glass,

10:28

piece of glass between us and we can't actually

10:30

touch each other or give each other a hug, and we

10:32

pick up an old school phone receiver,

10:34

or I think of a table. Sitting

10:37

and I can maybe like interact with my friends or family

10:40

But there's a guard looking over and they yell out

10:42

that the time is to go and like I have to say goodbye

10:44

quickly Those are the things that immediately come

10:46

to mind for me when I think of if

10:49

I put myself in Prison

10:51

like what you are. That's what I

10:53

think about and you know

10:55

It's if we asked if

10:57

we went out and did a survey of

10:59

a hundred people in society. I would

11:01

strongly Put

11:04

my money on the fact that the majority of

11:06

people would think of the same

11:08

things. Mm hmm. Now,

11:10

the question becomes, where did

11:12

you get and why do you think those things?

11:15

Yeah.

11:18

Movies, TV,

11:22

shows like Oz, like

11:25

shows that like literally about prison life.

11:29

Movies like The Green Mile, Shawshank

11:31

Redemption, obviously those are both Stephen King books.

11:33

Stephen King wrote a lot about prisons.

11:36

And then public

11:40

perception, like movies

11:42

and television shows, but also some actual news.

11:45

Because what makes the news for prisons is, oh, there's

11:47

a prison break, there was a murder in prison, these,

11:49

like, maximum maximum

11:51

security prisons, what does that look like? Even

11:54

things like You

11:57

see, like, the facilities, even things like The Walking

11:59

Dead, where they go into a prison, and then they

12:01

have, like, it's, it just, it always

12:03

looks like a not great facility

12:06

every time, like, it always, like, kind of dank and dark

12:08

and, uh, and there's

12:10

just so many examples of this, but yeah, it comes from, it comes

12:12

from pop culture at the end of the day, not

12:14

from interviewing people like you, who are actually

12:17

there, that's for sure.

12:18

That's right, so, the

12:21

idea of Nike and Just Do

12:23

It, it's very similar to the public

12:25

perception of prisons. What

12:27

we think of prisons and what

12:29

is in our consciousness about

12:32

how a prison operates is

12:34

really from pulp culture, it's,

12:36

it's what they want to put out.

12:40

And it's easier, so this is the other thing, it's

12:42

easy to dehumanize somebody, it's

12:44

easy to put somebody down, it's easy to

12:46

think less of somebody when there's

12:48

a stigma on that person. If

12:51

you think that a person is a monster, it's

12:53

much easier to turn your back on the atrocities

12:56

that's happened to somebody, and that is going

12:58

on with somebody, than if you knew that person

13:00

was a human being, just like

13:02

you, that created a bad choice. So,

13:06

I think some of it's almost intentionally done,

13:08

but I also want to say this,

13:10

over a period of my life, I had

13:12

seen movies like American History

13:15

X, Edward Norton, greatest

13:17

movies of all times. Oh, it's amazing. ShAwshank

13:20

Redemption, Andy Dufresne getting

13:22

raped by the sisters, brutally raped,

13:24

right? Brutally, brutally raped by

13:26

the sisters. 50 cents, get

13:28

rich, die or trying. There

13:31

was a brutal shower scene in the beginning of that

13:33

movie. They go in, strip out, buck naked.

13:36

And then my perception of prison was

13:38

like, you got to kill somebody or you're going to be

13:40

raped. You got to do a gang,

13:42

you're going to be killed. Or

13:45

if you remember Adam Sandler, longest yard,

13:47

he got

13:49

to the prison. He took the tray

13:51

and he T bowed the Native

13:54

American fellow off the chair.

13:57

Because they told him you've got to take out the biggest

13:59

and baddest fella in the

14:01

world when you get there. Yeah.

14:03

So those are the things

14:06

that they're putting in all of our consciousness.

14:08

In fact, when my case, when

14:10

my situation happened in 2006,

14:12

those were some of the thoughts in

14:14

the back of my mind that scared the

14:16

life out of me, that created a lot of self preservation

14:19

and a lot of bad choice making because I

14:22

thought if I was arrested and brought into

14:24

a prison in a prison setting,

14:26

I would have to hurt somebody

14:29

or I was going to be really hurt. Yeah.

14:31

And that scared me. So public perception

14:34

is that absolutely and positively that.

14:36

So 100 people, you ask 100 people that

14:38

same question. And then I would

14:40

say the same question prior to meeting me,

14:42

how many interactions with people

14:45

in prison did you have? And

14:49

Prior to meeting me what

14:52

did that look like for you as far as

14:54

interactions with anybody in the prison

14:56

system or people that have left the prison system?

15:00

The answer, honestly, is zero. I

15:02

don't have any friends that, I don't have any friends that are incarcerated,

15:04

nobody in my family's been incarcerated, so the answer

15:07

is zero. I've actually never

15:09

been in a prison, so

15:11

the answer is zero. So

15:14

it's, it's, none of it, none of it is from my own experience.

15:16

It's all from seeing

15:19

how it's portrayed.

15:21

Right. So how many of your friends have been arrested?

15:25

Yeah, that's a good question. I,

15:28

I think a few, myself included,

15:30

for a ticket, I ended up in, like,

15:33

the local town jail for an afternoon, but that's

15:35

not the same thing. It's like a holding cell, right? It's like,

15:37

sit there. I don't know, a

15:39

few, but nobody's ever ended up in,

15:42

you know, a sentence of any sort of, Any

15:45

sort of anything long term at all. It's always like

15:47

a holding cell, but then whatever they get out

15:49

So I can't really think of any friends that have been arrested

15:51

either and and ended up in like on a sentence

15:54

Inside of a inside the penitentiary system

15:57

And if you do know people I bet

15:59

you this I bet you know several people

16:01

out there, but they don't talk about it They

16:04

don't share Sure, it

16:06

up because it's a scarlet letter.

16:08

Nobody wants to wear around with them

16:10

because people are afraid of being judged

16:12

and criticized and put down and

16:14

looked as they're

16:17

afraid of being othered because of

16:19

a brush with the law or

16:21

going into the system of mass incarceration.

16:24

The facts are this 80

16:27

million people today

16:29

in our society have been affected by

16:31

mass incarceration. They've had

16:33

some run in with the law. One

16:36

third of our population has been in handcuffs

16:39

at one point or another, which is think

16:42

about that for a second. Yeah, and

16:46

there's 2. 3. Well, if

16:48

you look at statistics that will show you right now, between

16:51

1. million

16:53

people incarcerated, there's 795,

16:55

000 people returning home

16:57

every year from county jails and from prisons.

17:01

Crime is still going on.

17:03

It's it's happening everywhere. So

17:05

prisons aren't stopping crime.

17:08

What are prisons doing? Are they preventing people

17:10

from being hurt? I think probably

17:13

prisons are hurt preventing some people from

17:15

being hurt because people make horrible

17:17

choices. But what prisons

17:19

aren't doing is They're

17:22

not stopping me from being a, a human

17:24

being, which I think is interesting,

17:26

or the guys that are here, or the women that are

17:28

in prison, they're still human. And

17:31

the majority of people in prisons are gonna be

17:33

released one day into society.

17:36

And whether they succeed or not, I think

17:38

is dependent upon what

17:40

you and I are doing right now, today,

17:43

and what many people are doing with

17:45

people in prisons. We're forming relationships

17:47

and friendships with people

17:49

on the outside. We're having

17:51

conversations like this and

17:53

in addition, I think what we're doing is

17:56

we're changing the narrative about what

17:58

prisons are. So prison

18:00

to me, I'll just, I'll share. So

18:02

now we got out of the way what we believe

18:05

prisons are. So

18:07

prison to me was a place where I

18:09

came in, I found my recovery. I

18:12

got involved with education. I got involved

18:14

with the NAACP volunteerism.

18:17

In prison is a place where I've completely changed

18:20

and shifted my life and thank goodness

18:23

for the leadership of Commissioner Liberty

18:25

who has brought in a shlew of programs.

18:27

And when I say a shlew of programs, I'm talking

18:30

about a veteran's dog program,

18:32

a yoga program, a meditation

18:34

program. A welding program

18:37

a PhD program where we're actually

18:39

allowed to get our PhDs technology.

18:42

Dr. Ryan Thornell and the commissioner wrote

18:44

for a grant, the main DOC,

18:46

where they provided technology to the

18:48

majority of their residents. Mm-Hmm.

18:51

We have a college program where we

18:53

do business with the the

18:56

main the, the university

18:58

system. Excuse me. Mm-Hmm. So there's a

19:00

good partnership there. We have

19:02

partnerships now with the main

19:04

re entry network, which is

19:07

just phenomenal in helping people re enter

19:09

back into society. So

19:11

prison, to me, is a place, if it's

19:14

done intentionally, it's a place where somebody

19:16

can change their life around and heal

19:19

and become the people that they're intended to be.

19:22

Now, the majority of people in prison, we don't,

19:25

nobody, I gotta say this, I don't think anybody

19:27

I've ever met just said I'm going to wake

19:29

up today and be a bad criminal. I think there's

19:31

a build up, everybody's

19:34

situation, right? So

19:37

what happens is I think we pass judgment

19:39

on people and it's like, this guy

19:42

is this or this guy is that and we're

19:44

defined by the worst choice we've ever made.

19:46

But what people in what society

19:48

is failing to do is

19:50

they're failing to look at the why of behaviors

19:53

they're feeling to look at. That

19:55

could have been me too. Like the guy

19:58

that drives home, you know, people

20:00

drive home from golf courses every day

20:02

or from dinner after having

20:04

a couple drinks, maybe one too many, a little

20:06

kid could run out in front of you. That's

20:09

the truth. That's the reality. Or you might've

20:11

got a little angry when you were younger and you got

20:13

in a fistfight. You might've hit the dude the wrong

20:15

way and killed the guy. Yeah. But

20:18

we don't think of those things or think of the

20:20

people that cheat on their taxes out there I mean

20:24

honest to god think of the people that cheat

20:26

on their taxes out there and all those

20:28

folks could be in prison Yeah,

20:30

they don't they don't reflect on that

20:32

instead. We Again,

20:34

it's easier to pass judgment on people and

20:36

judge other people and really it has to

20:39

do with our shadows, right? It has to

20:41

do with our own shadows and what's inside of us

20:44

Yeah,

20:45

so let's talk now about some

20:50

things that You've

20:52

learned I'm sure you have friends

20:54

in there, you have colleagues, people

20:56

going through educational programs, and

21:00

you're a trained, well trained coach

21:02

and facilitator. So you also facilitate

21:04

and get a chance to have a position of

21:08

helping guide fellow,

21:10

fellow people that are incarcerated in

21:13

various parts of their journey. So what are some

21:15

things that you've learned

21:18

about yourself and others

21:21

that would be different than kind of like what we laid

21:23

out as. Maybe the

21:24

stereotype. Yeah. Yeah.

21:27

So, so

21:30

it goes to the why of behavior. The

21:33

majority of people that are incarcerated

21:35

deal with low emotional intelligence,

21:38

and a lot of that is because of adverse childhood

21:40

experiences and the abuse that

21:42

they've been through growing up. Dr.

21:44

Erin Kipnis wrote a book called Angry

21:47

Young Men, and it's about seven

21:49

pathways to prison, how people

21:51

end up in prison. And.

21:55

I really appreciated that book and

21:57

reading that book for many different reasons.

21:59

And I think the main reason is this.

22:02

We need to have an understanding of how

22:04

people do wind up

22:06

in these situations. Think about school systems.

22:08

People end up in school systems.

22:10

They're coming from households that are broken.

22:13

The school doesn't give a person the attention

22:16

or the love or the care that they need.

22:19

Our parents and our homes

22:21

are so broken today that

22:24

kids aren't getting the love and care

22:26

that they need. Our communities,

22:29

there's kids in everybody's community right now

22:31

that are suffering and going through something. And

22:33

I guarantee, I

22:35

guarantee if we ask the question to

22:37

almost anybody out there, Do you know any little kids that are

22:39

going through it or have a really rough life?

22:43

People would raise their hand. And then you

22:45

would say, I think the next question

22:47

would be, How many people are helping those kids?

22:51

You wouldn't see that many hands come up. And

22:54

I think that's the other challenge. And the other

22:56

issue is along the

22:58

way is people

23:01

need help and people need support,

23:04

but despite the fact that they need help and

23:06

support, people aren't getting it. Yeah.

23:10

So let's, that's going to be a great

23:12

lead in to

23:15

part of the reason I wanted you to come back and let's talk

23:17

about the work that you and some others

23:19

are doing with the Awakening Exchange. I'm

23:21

going to get back. We're going to talk about what the Awakening Exchange

23:23

is, the genesis of it, and what

23:25

difference it's making right after

23:28

this. So Steven,

23:30

is there, is there anything else

23:32

that you've learned that you think we should know?

23:36

Yeah, I, I, I just believe

23:38

that we're all better than the worst choice we've ever

23:40

made. And I think a lot of folks

23:42

coming into the prison system

23:44

were dealing with low emotional intelligence,

23:47

meaning that they had a hard time managing

23:49

their own emotions. They

23:51

had a hard time with self regulation.

23:55

They had a hard time with relationship

23:58

management with their families,

24:00

with their friends. And

24:02

a lot of that has to do with conditioning

24:05

and the way somebody was brought up. So

24:08

saying that I think if our prisons

24:10

were more intentional and they provided

24:13

spaces of healing Spaces

24:15

where people could chill

24:17

out that parasympath or chill out that

24:19

sympathetic response Excuse me and

24:22

allow the parasympathetic response

24:24

to kick in so there

24:26

was more Self regulation and

24:28

the more I just went through a heart math training

24:30

Jason. Mm hmm, and I realized

24:33

that So often

24:35

in our lives, we make choices

24:37

and decisions where we're not coherent,

24:40

where our lid is flipped. We

24:44

make choices because we have an emotional

24:47

reaction or overreaction

24:49

to things, meaning we

24:51

get angry, we scream, we holler.

24:54

Some people get into fistfights,

24:56

some people And then

24:58

you have to remember something if you throw

25:01

people that are dealing with a

25:03

lot of depression or dealing with challenges

25:05

in their life, and they're utilizing mind

25:07

altering chemicals or alcohol to

25:11

treat the depression or treat what they're

25:13

going through. Now

25:15

their ability to self regulate is

25:17

out the window. Now something happens

25:19

they're explosive, they're all

25:22

over the place. So

25:24

what I submit is. If

25:26

we can make prisons more intentional

25:28

and provide opportunities and programs

25:31

for people to heal and get better, if

25:34

we can provide individuals education,

25:36

by the way, education has shown

25:39

to reduce recidivism by 43

25:41

percent for an associate and bachelor's

25:43

degree. For a master's

25:46

degree, up to

25:48

85%. That's amazing. In a

25:50

PhD, nobody returns back to prison.

25:54

So in addition,

25:56

the Norwegian model, the

25:59

Norwegian model has

26:01

a 20 percent recidivism

26:03

rate versus the 77

26:05

percent in the United States. Why?

26:09

Great question. Well,

26:12

the Norwegian model looks

26:14

at the whole person. They take a holistic

26:17

approach to prison. The

26:19

punishment is being behind the walls.

26:22

The punishment is being away from your

26:24

friends and family and society. That's

26:26

the punishment. Just

26:28

because you're being punished there doesn't mean

26:30

you gotta come in in those things that

26:32

you think of. The abuse of guards,

26:35

the horrible visits. the

26:38

gang affiliations, all that stuff

26:41

doesn't need to take place because when

26:43

a person comes into the system, there's

26:45

opportunities for them to grow and flourish.

26:48

And all those other things are a consequence

26:50

of faulty systems, not

26:53

the individual themselves. It's the system

26:55

themselves. And to go back to

26:57

just do it, we live

26:59

in a society that people

27:01

now have been conditioned because of these

27:03

movies, because of the things we've

27:05

heard, the things that the

27:08

news, the media puts out there. So

27:11

think of Pizzagate

27:14

scandal. Think of the presidential

27:17

inauguration. Like they said, there was a huge

27:19

amount of people there. There wasn't that

27:21

many people that they claim that were there.

27:24

Yeah. You think

27:26

of the challenges with the vaccine, like the

27:28

back and back and forth with sides

27:30

on the vaccine and the information

27:32

that media the media put out. So,

27:36

point being is this, I think we have

27:38

to be a little bit more cognizant of

27:41

what the media is putting out there. We

27:43

have to be a little bit more aware that

27:45

people in prison are better than the worst

27:47

choice they've ever made. And prison is not

27:50

the movies. There's so

27:52

many opportunities for people to grow.

27:54

I know that's probably the stuff that that doesn't

27:57

sell people like, I want to hear the juicy

27:59

stuff. I want to hear about the boring,

28:01

Steven.

28:03

Does it happen? The violence? Yeah, it happens.

28:05

But I think the exciting stuff in my life

28:07

today is seeing guys graduate here

28:09

with. Bachelor's degrees

28:12

that really came in with a GED,

28:14

seeing guys get hope and meaning in their life,

28:16

seeing guys change their lives around,

28:19

working with other people, seeing guys

28:21

get into recovery, seeing guys like

28:23

writing their family letters, apologizing,

28:26

seeing guys doing restorative justice

28:28

work. These movies,

28:31

this form of conditioning has created

28:33

a stereotype. The problem with

28:35

that stereotype is when everybody

28:37

in society, the 70 out of 100,

28:40

Are judging us and viewing us a certain

28:42

way, there becomes a self-fulfilling

28:45

prophecy that takes place. So

28:47

over a period of time, a person

28:49

starts believing that about themselves,

28:51

and that's what's perpetuating the system

28:54

itself. It's the ideas,

28:56

the beliefs, and the views of society

28:59

that they're pushing and

29:01

reflecting on people in prison.

29:03

You, they're saying, Hey, you're POS.

29:06

We're not going to hire you. We're

29:08

not going to let you live in our

29:11

house or in our apartment because

29:13

you're a felon. We're not going

29:15

to allow you to vote. So

29:17

we're not even allowing people to return

29:19

back to the fabric of society. We're saying,

29:22

Hey, you're not part of this fabric. You're different.

29:25

You're other you're other than us.

29:27

You're not worthy of a boat. You're not worthy

29:29

of a job You're not worthy of living

29:32

in the place that I run as my apartment

29:34

complex. You're an

29:36

other It's the modern day Jim

29:38

Crow is what it is. It really is.

29:40

It's the modern day Jim Crow my friend. Yeah

29:45

Well Steven, I'm feeling called

29:47

to move us to talk about What

29:50

you are personally doing, what

29:53

you are personally doing, because like when I first met you

29:55

and we had our first conversation prior

29:57

to having you come on the podcast, it's very

29:59

apparent this is something you're passionate about and it's not

30:02

a self serving thing. Like yes,

30:04

you are part of the same population you're talking

30:06

about, but like you really have a

30:08

heart for your fellow incarcerated

30:10

folks, you have a heart for this, and

30:13

I'd love to hear now and

30:15

share with the audience and have a conversation around

30:18

what you're doing with the Awakening Exchange, because

30:22

One of the things that struck me about what we're

30:24

about to talk about is, I would, this is not

30:26

something that I would think would be happening. So,

30:30

going back to the stereotypes of what happens

30:32

in the prison. What are, what

30:34

are other, what are other people doing? Like this

30:36

would not be, I would not list this thing on the list

30:38

of 50 things that happen on a daily basis in

30:41

a prison in the way that we're about to lay this

30:43

out. So I'd love to have you lead us now

30:45

through what the Awakening Exchange

30:47

is and maybe to

30:49

kick off to talk about like a little bit about

30:51

what it is and what was the genesis for it.

30:53

So how did you come up with the idea? And

30:56

again, I love this because you're a fellow podcast

30:59

host, so you can lead the conversation and

31:01

I'll ask you questions as I see fit.

31:04

Oh, great. Thank you. The, so the Awakening

31:06

Exchange was created

31:09

in my graduate studies at Life University.

31:12

And the idea was

31:15

we live in a system with the

31:17

low emotional intelligence.

31:20

We have a tough time with

31:22

authority because of the abuse most

31:24

people have experienced with their family

31:27

members Some of these guys have been in

31:29

foster care Some of them have

31:31

been through the youth center and some of the

31:33

stories that you hear are brutal And

31:36

the majority of people don't want to listen

31:39

to people in authority Nobody

31:41

wants to feel like they're being criticized

31:43

or somebody's holding power over you

31:45

or looking down But when

31:47

you feel like we're doing this together, I

31:50

mean When you feel

31:52

like somebody's beside you on your journey

31:54

and celebrating with you and uplifting you

31:57

that feels better, doesn't it? J. Absolutely.

32:01

Yeah. So the idea

32:03

of the awakening coaching program

32:05

was, let's take the guys

32:07

in prison that are doing really,

32:10

really well. Let's take the guys

32:12

in prison that are already living

32:14

as mentors and doing

32:16

this work without the training and

32:18

let's provide them some training to help

32:21

and uplift other people. And

32:24

with that we did a couple of trainings

32:26

here and every person

32:29

that's been through the awakening training now

32:31

in the prison setting, they have jobs.

32:34

One of them works for the education department.

32:36

One of them works for the music department. One

32:38

of them's running the recovery. One

32:41

of them's working in IMHU. One

32:43

of them's every single person

32:46

has acquired jobs in leadership. So

32:50

through that, I presented The

32:52

awakening the coaching program on this

32:54

exchange. I met john bergoff who changed

32:56

my life from exchange approach Learned

33:00

how to do these exchanges Presented

33:02

my capstone and we had an audience

33:04

of I think 68 69

33:07

people and Everybody

33:10

really appreciated it so much. I was encouraged

33:13

to keep going. And

33:15

now, have you, Jay, have you been to an Awakening

33:17

Exchange? Have you got to stop into one

33:19

yet? I have

33:20

not, but I am very much excited to

33:22

do so. Is this I want to

33:25

ask about this here. Is

33:28

this something that anybody can,

33:30

can come to?

33:32

Yeah, so every

33:34

month now, great question. Every

33:36

month now, we run

33:38

an online exchange about criminal

33:40

justice and prison reform. We

33:43

have changed champions from around the world.

33:47

Last month we had Dr.

33:49

Ron Garrett, Dr. Ron Garrett runs

33:51

re entry United. The month before

33:53

that we had state's attorney,

33:56

Natasha Irving main. She's

33:59

a district attorney. Next

34:01

month we have Isha brave

34:03

boy from Maryland. She's a state's attorney.

34:06

I'm working with Bobby Kennedy's office

34:08

right now. I'm praying that Robert Kennedy

34:11

Jr. is going to be a guest on one

34:13

of my upcoming podcasts. So

34:17

we have a vast majority of people

34:19

from different backgrounds that are interested

34:22

in creating change in the prison system.

34:24

So we bring people together. Everybody's

34:26

invited to come. There's no charge. And

34:29

what we try to do is foster a conversation

34:32

and we have these breakout rooms where people

34:34

can have conversations about prison

34:36

reform and changing

34:38

the prison system. And

34:40

what I found is, I mean, I'm doing this

34:42

from my prison cell, so it's been

34:45

an interesting experience like getting the

34:47

information out there. Anything

34:49

from surveys to the, the registration

34:51

forms to all that, but

34:54

what I'm finding is so many people are

34:56

interested in so many people

34:58

are they

35:01

want to contribute, they want to learn

35:03

in when they come to these things, Jason,

35:05

they're taking away. What

35:07

is it really like to be in prison? They're

35:09

taking away like what we're doing here.

35:11

Wow. These guys are better than the worst

35:13

choice they've ever made. Wow,

35:16

this guy, you know, yeah, back 15

35:18

years ago, he was in a fight

35:20

and somebody lost their life. But this guy isn't

35:23

a bad guy or whatever

35:25

that is. So narratives are changing

35:28

because of this thing and what we're doing, it's

35:30

creating support for other people

35:32

that are in the system as well.

35:34

Mm. I

35:36

have so many questions about this. I

35:38

think I want to start with, I

35:41

want to go back to something you said about need

35:43

to be uplifted. abOut. And

35:46

people that are incarcerated need to be uplifted.

35:48

What is it that's

35:51

uplifting for somebody like yourself? Cause

35:53

I think like that's, that might be arguably

35:56

a different question for somebody like me.

35:58

Who's not incarcerated and somebody who you

36:00

have a lot of your freedoms taken away. And

36:04

you're in a situation where quite frankly, you,

36:06

you don't have as

36:08

much control. You only have control, maybe what's in your

36:10

mind, a little bit about your body, but you don't have

36:12

the ability to be like, Oh, what's uplifting for me. I'm going to go, I'm

36:15

going to go down to the store and I'm going to go meet my friend

36:17

for a drink or something like you can't do that. So what

36:20

is something that would be, what's

36:22

an example of something that you do or that, you know, would

36:24

be uplifting for your community?

36:27

So I'm gonna I'm gonna answer that question, but

36:29

I want to say what's coming to my mind

36:31

right now is Acceptance

36:34

commitment therapy first and I want to explain

36:36

this to you because I think this yeah really

36:40

understanding my values

36:42

has been really,

36:45

really important to me. My own values

36:47

are uplifting to me to have my autonomy

36:49

and to have certain values in my life.

36:52

Like I value respect. I value

36:54

honesty. I value a

36:56

friendship. And when I say respect, respect

36:59

to me now simply means to look again

37:01

at something re again,

37:04

spec to look, yeah.

37:06

Look at getting at something. I

37:08

value my education. I value my

37:10

wellness. I value my health. I

37:12

value other people And

37:15

having those values in place

37:17

for me What they have

37:19

done if you think of acceptance commitment therapy

37:22

acceptance commitment therapy, it has us look

37:24

at our values So when

37:26

situations arise, we're able

37:28

to observe those situations

37:31

and not fuse to them When

37:34

we fuse if you think of a fusion

37:36

think of water plain water

37:39

And if you add coffee to

37:41

this water, what happens? Dilutes.

37:44

It becomes coffee, right?

37:45

Coffee, yeah. It becomes coffee. Diluted coffee.

37:48

That's right. So, the

37:50

idea is rather than putting the coffee

37:52

in with the water, we keep the coffee

37:54

separate. The coffee is those issues,

37:57

those challenges that arrive in

37:59

our lives. Mm. So,

38:01

what keeps me inspired is my

38:03

values and keeping my values

38:06

at the forefront of my consciousness.

38:09

And because of those values, what

38:11

really inspires me today is being able to

38:14

help and give back to other people.

38:17

So what does that look like for

38:19

me? Well, I facilitate craft classes here

38:21

at the prison, but moreover, I think

38:23

what I am really inspired

38:26

to do is to do conversations

38:28

and have conversations like this, that

38:31

we get to change the narrative about

38:33

prisons and what prisons look like.

38:36

Because everybody, how we started

38:38

our call, Jason, everybody

38:40

has that same idea of prisons.

38:44

It's brutality. It's the Shawshank

38:46

Redemption. It's the American History

38:48

X. It's the The brutal

38:50

rapes and the beatings and the,

38:54

when in fact, I think we need to start changing

38:56

the narrative with that and say, no,

38:59

prisons are a place of healing. Imagine

39:01

if we changed it to that. Prisons

39:04

are a place to healing. It's where you're going to go heal.

39:08

When you, I get a question, when you take a car,

39:10

your car into the garage, let's say

39:12

you had a broken motor, what would happen?

39:17

I take my car to the garage and it's got a broken mo, it's

39:19

got an engine that needs to be fixed. I would, I would,

39:21

they would, let's say engines. Yeah, they would. What would

39:23

happen, what would happen is they would look

39:25

at it, they would say, your engine's broken,

39:27

and they would gimme a price and I'd either say, forget

39:30

it, I'm gonna go get a different car, or I would

39:32

fix the engine. So you fix

39:34

the engine, what would happen? It'll

39:37

break again eventually. no,

39:41

I fixed the en, well, I fi I fixed the engine.

39:43

I can, I could then use it. I can then use

39:45

it as it's, as it's used, as it's designed

39:47

for.

39:48

Well, you decide to fix the engine in the shop,

39:50

they're going to have to take the engine out. They're

39:52

going to put a new engine in. They're going to change

39:54

those parts. They're going to make the

39:57

car run properly so it's safe

40:00

to put back out on the road again, right? That's right.

40:02

Yep. And you're paying for that too, right?

40:04

So. Oh yeah. I love that.

40:07

So think of that analogy. Think

40:09

of that metaphor for prisons.

40:12

We come into prison. You're paying

40:15

in Maine. It's up to 90, 000

40:17

a year. You're paying to house somebody in prison

40:20

on the state, state, state taxpayers,

40:23

state taxpayers are paying people

40:25

to be in prison. Now, I

40:28

think state taxpayers would have a little bit

40:30

more concern because you're taking the car

40:32

to the shop. The person is coming into

40:34

prison because there's something broken. There's something

40:37

that is not lining

40:39

up with the rules of our society.

40:41

So something needs to be fixed. The

40:44

person comes in, there's a

40:46

diagnostics done. Well,

40:49

wow, the person has a substance abuse problem,

40:51

the person has a problem with violence, the person

40:53

has a problem with whatever it is, just

40:55

like the car, the motor's blown. The

40:58

car goes in, the person comes into

41:00

the prison, the car goes up on

41:02

the lift, the

41:05

person goes into their cell. If

41:08

the car just sits there on

41:10

the lift, and

41:12

you let it back out on the road, what happens?

41:16

It doesn't work. It's still broken,

41:18

right? It's still broken, exactly.

41:20

It needs to come right back into the shop again

41:22

to get repaired. So,

41:25

utilize that for a human being.

41:27

A person comes in, they just sit around

41:30

in their cell, they don't do anything. That's

41:32

why we have the 77

41:34

percent recidivism rate. So

41:38

my thought is this, if a person comes

41:40

into the prison, people go underneath

41:42

the car, they do the work, they take

41:45

the motor out, they put the new motor in,

41:47

they start the car up, they test

41:49

it to make sure it's working. Well,

41:51

a person comes into prison, it's intentional.

41:54

Now they work on those issues

41:56

from the diagnostic, they

41:58

work on their substance abuse, they work on their

42:01

health, they work on their mindset, they

42:03

work on their education, they work on their vocational

42:05

skills. So now,

42:08

people, the Lyft, everything that's happening

42:11

underneath the car, the person's

42:13

doing that work on themselves. Therefore,

42:15

the money that taxpayers are paying

42:17

is now going somewhere that's creating

42:20

good. When the car comes

42:22

down, the person's leaving their cell

42:24

to be released back into society.

42:26

Now they're hitting the streets and they're

42:28

safe. Yeah. Does that make

42:30

sense? That makes a

42:31

ton of sense. I want to, to

42:34

wrap with this for now, which

42:37

We're going to have to do a three or four or five part. We're,

42:39

we're, Stephen, you're now, you're going to be, we're

42:41

going to end up being co hosts together on some sort

42:43

of show here. To wrap with this

42:46

now, like I had a couple of questions

42:48

about something you said earlier. I always have a million

42:51

questions, but I'm trying to narrow this down. What's in my mind.

42:54

You had mentioned some real success stories.

42:57

Some folks who came in, did

42:59

the work. end up in positions

43:01

of leadership. They're doing good things in the world. It

43:04

sounds like maybe some of them have been released. Some are

43:06

maybe still in the prison system. When

43:10

you, do

43:12

you have any success stories or

43:14

examples of people that are

43:17

resistant to this idea? They

43:20

come in with a lot of resistance. Hey, I'm willing to,

43:22

I'm willing to come and have these conversations. I know you run

43:24

like coaching circles inside of the prison system

43:27

and as well as awakening exchange and all these

43:29

other things where people are just resistant. They're like, That's

43:31

not for me. I can't change. This

43:34

is how I am. And I'm

43:36

curious. What is the

43:38

thing that opens them

43:40

up to different possibility

43:42

to a different to? I

43:44

am not going to be one of those 77%.

43:47

I want something different for my life because

43:50

I would admit that's and that's gonna there's no one

43:52

answer for that, right? Because each of us are unique.

43:55

But I would imagine there's something that you've noticed

43:57

as a trend of like the,

43:59

either maybe it's a character trait, maybe it's

44:01

something like an experience that has people

44:03

go, Oh, there is something

44:05

different. I'm curious

44:07

what you've seen around that. I don't know what the specific

44:09

would be, but there's got to be some commonality

44:12

there.

44:13

Yeah, it's the mentality of.

44:18

It's the mentality of what we had talked

44:20

about earlier. It's the mentality of the,

44:22

the, the

44:24

stereotyping that happens

44:26

from movies and the things that we've watched

44:29

that creates that kind of attitude

44:31

because a person feels hopeless. What

44:34

I've seen, what I've seen to

44:36

be the thread that

44:39

is in everybody's story

44:41

of change. It's somebody

44:43

believes in that person, there's love,

44:46

people believe that person can change,

44:49

they believe in that person's capacity

44:51

to be a better person, they

44:54

encourage the person, they support

44:56

the person, and they let that

44:58

person know that they're loved and cared about.

45:01

Because when somebody fears loved and cared

45:03

about, now there's a, there's a

45:05

reason to move forward and make those changes.

45:07

When I'm feeling hopeless, watch out. When

45:10

I feel hopeless in my life, like there's nothing

45:12

to work for, nobody cares about me.

45:14

That's where a lot of people are at.

45:17

They come in and they feel like nobody cares

45:19

about them, they feel like they're judged, they just went

45:21

through a horrific If anybody's

45:23

been through court out there, I don't care if it's a

45:25

divorce or if it's a speeding

45:28

ticket, you know, court is a challenging

45:30

thing to go through. Yeah. People's

45:33

faces, you know, I'm working with a guy right now.

45:37

He came in and he

45:39

came in on a drug charge and he

45:41

ran a business as well. So running

45:43

that business. He wasn't able

45:45

to finish a job and

45:48

because he couldn't finish the job, they put felony

45:50

charges on him because of a contractor

45:53

thing where if you're in the middle of a job,

45:55

you don't finish it and he couldn't finish

45:57

it. So he's

45:59

like feeling hopeless because there's more and more

46:02

charges and it's like. You can't

46:04

allow that to drag you down. You

46:06

got to move forward, pay the people back, do

46:08

what you need to do. And

46:10

having somebody that believes in him, like

46:13

we're a group of guys now that meet every

46:15

Thursday night for a positive mindset

46:17

group. That's what I've seen,

46:19

like people, when people love,

46:22

you know, Candace Powell came into this prison and

46:24

gave a lot of us love. And showed

46:26

a lot of us what love is. Unconditional

46:29

love with transformative leadership,

46:32

man, that changed the commissioner,

46:35

this right here, believing in me

46:37

and giving me enough trust to be online

46:39

with you that changes people. Yeah.

46:42

So I really

46:44

believe Jason, I really, really believe

46:46

what we need to do is we need to start

46:49

singing songs of love and celebration

46:52

of. People in prison that

46:54

are getting out doing better instead

46:56

of perpetuating this narrative of

46:58

violence of other ish

47:00

of somebody's worse than the,

47:02

you know, somebody is the worst thing that they've ever

47:04

done because they're not nobody wants to have

47:06

a scarlet letter. Nobody.

47:10

Well, I'm going to make a call out to people

47:13

listening for those listening. You're obviously care

47:15

about this topic, or

47:17

maybe you just think Steven is an amazing human like I

47:19

do, or it's probably, we know it's not

47:21

me, Steven. So maybe it's you. Maybe it's a topic

47:23

or it's probably a combination of the both. I

47:26

am going to encourage. everybody

47:28

listening to join an awakening exchange circle.

47:31

I don't know if you call it a circle or if you just call

47:33

it a meeting, but I am going to attend

47:36

one as soon as I can. And so Steven,

47:38

let's talk about what's available

47:40

to us to learn more about this

47:42

topic and see the sort of work that

47:44

you're doing. Yeah,

47:47

you can go to www.

47:51

awakeningexchange. com You can

47:53

find me on Face excuse

47:55

me, on LinkedIn as Stephen Matthew

47:57

Clark. You'll see the

48:00

symbol behind me on my LinkedIn photo.

48:03

So it'll be easy to recognize me. Let's

48:06

connect and come to an awakening

48:08

exchange. We usually run the exchanges

48:10

on the last Thursday of every month

48:13

from either 3 to 5 or 5

48:15

to 7 Eastern Time. This month we're

48:18

working with Don Cabarello from

48:20

Ace Overcomers, talking about adverse

48:22

childhood experiences. We

48:25

have Dr. Steven from HeartMath.

48:27

He's going to come run a little bit of

48:30

HeartMath exercises

48:32

and teach us a little bit about chilling

48:35

out our sympathetic response system

48:37

and building self regulation. Next

48:41

month, we have state's attorney,

48:43

Aisha Brave Boy, who

48:45

is going to come on and talk about changing

48:47

the Maryland prison system and

48:49

the work that she's doing. So

48:52

please, I mean, if you go to www.

48:56

awakeningexchange. com, you

48:59

can register for our events. It should be

49:01

directing you to Sutra. You have to register

49:03

to get in. It will put you on our mailing list.

49:07

If you're on that mailing list, we

49:09

will be sending you out. Each month, we'll

49:11

send you out information. We'll send you newsletters.

49:13

We'll send you updates with members,

49:16

different things, members are going on. So

49:19

please get involved. We need

49:21

your love and we need your support men

49:23

and women in the prison system. We don't need

49:25

judgment. We need acceptance. And,

49:28

you know, the greatest gift in the world, Jason, first

49:30

of all, I want to say, I admire you too,

49:32

Jay's not sharing this with everybody and hasn't

49:35

shared this. He just got back from Uganda

49:38

on a mission to

49:41

help people with clean water. So

49:43

this guy's remarkable as well.

49:45

He's also like being in a heart

49:47

centered person, doing really amazing

49:50

work. I think that's why we're able

49:52

to connect so much. Yeah.

49:54

Oh, thank you. I appreciate it. You've ruined saw

49:57

Steven. Stop it. Look at what a good coach

50:00

and facilitator. He's like, by the way, I'm going to out you.

50:02

That's really good. Well, Steven, I

50:08

don't know if it was outing you. I just want to celebrate

50:10

you for the work that you're doing

50:12

as well. My dear friend, goodness

50:14

gracious. So many people run these podcasts

50:17

and they put people on pedestals and lift

50:19

people up, but you know, sometimes

50:21

I think it's important that we lift each other up

50:23

and you're also doing really good work in the world

50:26

because. Thank you. How many people,

50:28

this is the only thing I want to say is, you have

50:30

an interest in what we're doing in the

50:32

system of mass incarceration. You

50:34

are bringing a light into this

50:36

dark system. So with

50:39

that in and of itself is service

50:41

work, my dear friend. Yeah. What's

50:43

the least I can do? I really appreciate it. As

50:46

we were talking here, I'm going to out

50:48

myself that I was multitasking and I just registered

50:50

for the event next week. It's next Thursday.

50:53

From five to seven Eastern

50:55

time. I will be there because

50:58

I want to learn more about this for

51:00

those. I'll wrap with this for now.

51:02

And yes, Steven, you're going to be back on here again.

51:07

What else can people do if people

51:09

can't make an exchange or there, but

51:11

they say, Hey, like I'm really interested in learning

51:14

more, what else would you recommend that people can

51:16

do that are listening, that are interested?

51:19

Yeah. Thank you so much. I think. One

51:22

of the things, the first thing that you can do

51:24

is if you know somebody in prison,

51:27

most people do, believe it

51:29

or not, most people know somebody in prison.

51:32

If you know somebody in prison, reach out to them,

51:34

send them a letter, just send them a hello and

51:36

let them know you're thinking about them. If

51:39

you feel like, oh, it's been so many

51:41

years, I'm kind of scared, I don't want to reach

51:43

out. Well, let me tell you this.

51:45

It's been years since I've talked to people and

51:47

I'd love to hear from them. I don't form

51:49

judgment or pass judgment. People in prison

51:51

would love to hear from you. Yeah.

51:53

Knowing that somebody cares about us

51:56

is huge. So you can do that.

51:59

Get involved in and get in and

52:01

have an interest in what's going on in

52:03

our prison systems, because the

52:06

stuff that Jason was talking about earlier

52:09

in the call, the abuse, the gangs,

52:11

all that different stuff, that stuff can

52:13

exist if we're not shining a light

52:15

into these dark places. So you're

52:18

spending a lot of money every year with your

52:20

tax dollars, housing people

52:22

in your local prisons. That's the truth. Yeah,

52:24

if we could redirect and help people heal

52:27

that money could be so better used

52:29

for schools for roads for our elderly

52:32

for our veterans So there's

52:34

so many other places that money could be allocated

52:36

get an interest and have an interest and

52:39

then you can always go to

52:42

Awakening exchange on better world.

52:45

That's another way that you can help If

52:48

you're interested in donating we

52:50

have a donation page

52:52

set up. And then I guess

52:55

the last way, if you know anybody in

52:57

this space, that's doing criminal justice

52:59

reform, that's a change champion, reach out

53:01

to me. I'd love to interview them. I'd love

53:03

to have a conversation with them. And,

53:07

you know, collaboratively it's

53:09

not an individual approach in anything

53:11

we do in this world. It has to be a collaborative

53:13

approach. Yeah. So this little part

53:15

here being on this podcast, anything

53:18

you can contribute, we'd appreciate even if it's just

53:20

your attendance or a question.

53:22

Yeah. So We'll put all,

53:25

we'll put

53:25

all of those in the, in the chat. The

53:27

last thing I'll say around this

53:29

is, and I don't remember the name of it, but

53:31

I know there are multiple nonprofits where

53:34

you can write anonymous letters, where you

53:36

can just reach out to people in prison

53:38

and just like write a letter, tell somebody that. I

53:40

don't even know you, but I'm thinking about you. You are

53:42

loved and all of those, and all of those

53:45

wonderful things. And, you know, it's apropos

53:47

that we're recording this year, the Tuesday before

53:49

Thanksgiving, this is a lonely time of year

53:52

for all sorts of people in this world. I can imagine

53:54

it's a very, can be a very lonely time for

53:57

those who are, uh, those who

53:59

are in in prison this time of year. So we'll

54:02

put all that in the chat and,

54:04

or not in the chat, we'll put all that in the show notes.

54:06

And again, I said this the last time

54:08

I had you on Steven, but for those. Who

54:10

haven't realized they should connect with you yet. They really

54:13

should. I knowing you, like

54:15

you would love to connect with just about anybody,

54:18

as long as they've got something bring in a

54:20

heart based conversation and just

54:22

a great person to get to know can see that

54:24

you've made a difference for me in my life. And I told you that,

54:27

and I just really appreciate having you on again and

54:30

getting your time and your energy. And

54:32

I can't wait to see you at the exchange next week. I'm

54:35

the awakening exchange. I'm really excited about

54:37

experiencing what that is and learning more about this.

54:39

So, you know, my wife and

54:41

I, we can make an impact on folks.

54:43

We're in the state of New York, which has a

54:46

lot of really famous and not so, not

54:48

so nice prisons like Rikers and Sing

54:50

Sing, and I don't think Sing Sing's around, but we have

54:52

a lot of, a lot of prisons here in New

54:54

York. There's a lot. Yeah.

54:57

And, and, and the place that what he was talking

54:59

about, ladies and gentlemen, there's a place you can go

55:01

to. It's www flick

55:04

shop.com. It's FLIK

55:09

shop.com. And

55:11

they have a place on there. If you register, you

55:13

get a couple free postcards

55:16

that you can send into somebody in prison.

55:18

And there's a place on there. I

55:20

think it's an angel program or a

55:23

you can just send a postcard into somebody.

55:25

It goes to somebody that's

55:27

in the prison system. I think that's huge.

55:29

And then a friend of mine, her name is Valerie

55:32

Cartonio. She runs

55:34

prison pod podcast. She

55:37

is currently interviewing death

55:40

row inmates, people that are on death row

55:42

in Carolina and

55:45

death row. What a lot of people don't know one

55:47

out of eight people on death row

55:49

end up getting exonerated. So

55:53

a lot of people setting on death row

55:55

right now are actually folks

55:57

that are either innocent or have been overly

55:59

charged for things. I

56:02

would strongly, there's so many different topics

56:04

and issues within criminal justice

56:06

to be aware of and get involved

56:09

with. But a place to start is

56:11

just reaching out to somebody in your prison system

56:14

or talking to somebody, having a conversation

56:17

with somebody. And a great place to do that

56:19

is the Awakening Exchange. Again,

56:21

if you're interested in showing up,

56:24

you have the website, Jay will put information

56:28

in at the end in the chat and then betterworldawakening.

56:32

betterworld. org,

56:34

I believe, is our site that we use

56:36

for sponsorship and

56:38

for help. So it's awakening. betterworld.

56:42

org and what that does, that

56:44

just helps us run the exchanges that

56:46

helps us with the work that we're doing. So.

56:49

Any love help and support that you

56:51

want to give we are all we're

56:54

open arms for it all open it. Yeah.

56:56

Yeah. I love you, brother. I appreciate your time.

56:58

Thanks, buddy. Yeah, I love it. I love

57:00

the notion of exploring

57:03

you know, maybe coming forward and maybe

57:05

reaching out to hear what topics

57:07

people would be interested in what the listeners

57:10

are interested in. Yeah. Absolutely throwing

57:12

that out. What do they want to know about? And then

57:14

yeah, we can answer some questions from

57:16

some viewers and maybe even doing it live

57:18

stream where people do come in

57:20

with their own questions. Love

57:22

to. Yeah. The last thing I'll say here

57:25

is I was, I was just looking at

57:27

flick shop because I couldn't remember the name of it

57:30

created by Marcus Bullock, who

57:32

was in prison when he was 15. He went

57:34

for eight years. He created this

57:37

because it saved his life because his

57:39

mother was able to send him letters and

57:41

photos and what he's created

57:44

is an app and a whole web presence

57:46

and he did a TED talk on this so I cannot wait

57:48

to watch his TED talk now. Brilliant. What

57:51

a, what an amazing thing. Yeah,

57:53

very cool. Very cool.

57:56

Well, Steven, I want to wish you a very happy

57:59

Thanksgiving and I really appreciate seeing

58:01

you again, having you on here, appreciate

58:03

your wisdom, what you're doing with the thing.

58:05

I will see you next week at the awakening

58:07

exchange. I don't know if it's a, if it's a webinar

58:10

style or if we're actually going to see each other on zoom, I think

58:12

it's actually a zoom. So we'll see you.

58:14

It's an exchange style. Yeah. You'll, you'll see me. Oh

58:16

yeah.

58:17

You're like, not only will I see you, you'll be doing all sorts of

58:19

formats that you and I know that we learned from

58:21

from the the exchange approach community.

58:23

Well, brother, it's been again, wonderful.

58:26

And we'll have you back on again soon. Call it

58:28

to the audience. If you want, if

58:30

you have any specific questions. You

58:32

can send them in to my website. You can connect

58:35

with Steven directly and we will make sure

58:37

that we have another session where we answer those. And

58:39

we might even live

58:40

stream it. Like you said. That'd be pretty cool.

58:42

Yeah. Yeah. Thanks so much.

58:44

Thanks, Steven.

58:45

Thanks for listening to another episode of Talking

58:47

to Cool People with Jason Frizzell. If

58:50

you enjoyed today's episode, please tell your

58:52

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59:00

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59:02

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59:04

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59:08

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59:10

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59:12

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