0:00

Thank you for downloading taxpayer beware

0:02

. This podcast was created by the California

0:04

tax education council. A nonprofit

0:06

organization required by the state of California

0:09

to basically do one task and that's

0:11

to protect you against fraud and

0:13

help you find a legally qualified tax professional.

0:16

Now here's your host, Brandon Shanley .

0:23

Hello everyone. I'm Brina Chamblee chair of the California

0:25

tax education council or C tech for

0:28

short tech was created by the state

0:30

to basically do one task, protect taxpayers

0:32

against fraudulent tax preparers. Anyone

0:35

who prepares tax returns for you must be there

0:38

Ctech registered. And if they're not, they must be

0:40

an attorney, a CPA or an enrolled

0:42

agent. So the

0:44

good news is there are plenty of qualified

0:46

tax preparers to help you with your taxes, especially

0:48

in the state of California. The bad news

0:50

is unfortunately, scammers are

0:53

still out there and they're definitely getting

0:55

more sophisticated with their tactics and

0:57

the unfortunate part right now during the pandemic,

0:59

some of those scanners even have more time on their hands.

1:02

So that's what we're here to talk about today for episode two

1:05

of how to spot tax schemes and

1:07

avoid fraud. Joining

1:09

us today is Elias Domingez from

1:11

the franchise tax board, public affairs

1:13

division. Um, you guys have heard us talk

1:15

about franchise tax board before, so

1:18

, uh, Elias, thanks for taking some

1:20

time to talk with us today, either

1:24

Brandon. Yeah, thanks for having me. Um, so

1:26

yeah, as you mentioned , uh, um , my name is

1:29

Elias Dominguez. I'm a public information

1:31

officer to , with , uh, French tax

1:33

board. So , uh, hopefully I can provide

1:35

you all with just some helpful tips regarding

1:38

tax far for this upcoming tax season.

1:41

Great, thank you. Yeah. So

1:43

, um, you know, something, you'll

1:45

see it in the news and I'm sure our listeners

1:47

are starting to see it as well. You know,

1:49

this time of year, there's always these hot

1:52

buttons of things that you're going to hear in the media,

1:55

you know, see in the media about, Oh , it's tax

1:57

time, it's tax time, you know, but there's,

1:59

there's definitely a couple big ones that stick

2:01

out to me and I'm sure to you as well, but

2:04

refund fraud and identity

2:06

theft. And those are probably the two

2:08

biggest things that you're going to hear this

2:10

time of year during tax time, since, you know, the IRS

2:13

just opened on Friday to start accepting

2:15

returns and, you know, on February

2:17

12th they opened up. Um, so I , I

2:19

think those, those messages are going to be even amplified

2:22

even more here in the next few weeks. Is

2:24

that something you feel is accurate? Um,

2:27

definitely. Yeah . So , um, yeah,

2:30

as you mentioned, you know, IRS started

2:32

excepting their returns. We've been accepting returns

2:35

since January 4th. So , um,

2:38

yeah, I mean the complaints that we tend

2:40

to see the most involved , you know, a taxpayer

2:43

, um, you know, receiving either a

2:45

letter or maybe even an email

2:47

asking for their personal information

2:50

and , um, you know, and this

2:52

is either to either release their refund

2:54

or process their tax return . So

2:56

, um, you know, while while many

2:59

these complaints, they

3:00

Turn out to actually be a legitimate request

3:02

room, a FTB, you know, we

3:04

always encourage our taxpayers to remain

3:06

on high alert whenever they receive

3:08

any sort of requests for their personal

3:11

information.

3:14

So that's , yeah, that's very interesting that you mentioned

3:16

that too. And I think, you know , especially when

3:18

you're dealing with something as a sensitive

3:20

and important as a tax return,

3:23

I think anybody can fall into that habit

3:25

of thinking any message they get from anybody

3:27

must be important. It must be relevant.

3:30

Um, you know, we've talked

3:32

about it before and it is a hot

3:35

button and kind of like I've mentioned as well. I mean,

3:37

some of these scammers may even have more time on

3:39

their hands right now during this time of the year.

3:42

Um, could you kind of explain from your side, you know,

3:44

like how do , how do most of these scams work

3:46

that you see? Like, what are some of the things that

3:48

, that you've seen or heard of happening

3:50

in the way they happen? So we can educate the

3:52

, uh, the taxpayers listening today on,

3:55

on what to look for

3:56

Four and how to avoid it . Sure.

3:59

So, yeah, as you mentioned, I mean , uh , these

4:02

scans are , are basically a form of ID theft.

4:04

So , uh , the scammer they'll

4:06

use , um , stolen, personal

4:08

identifying information, or you might hear

4:11

PII mentioned. Um, so they'll,

4:13

they'll use things like a social security number,

4:15

your name, address , um, other pieces

4:18

of information , um, L uses

4:20

to file a tax return in the victim's name

4:23

and the scammer will actually have the refund

4:25

sent to them. So , um,

4:27

you know, many times the , the victim

4:30

of this scam, they're completely unaware

4:32

that their information has been stolen

4:35

and the refund has been stolen until

4:37

we either contact them or until

4:39

they actually go and, and , um, try to file

4:41

their return. And then they realize, you know,

4:44

this has happened to them. So

4:46

, um, you know, the, the scammers

4:48

they'll often , uh , pose as

4:51

either a tax official or

4:53

, um, you know, even the taxpayer's employer,

4:56

you know, they get really creative. So they'll

4:58

, um, you know, send an email

5:01

messages or make a phone call trying

5:03

to solicit sensitive information, such

5:06

as a W2 or just any other personal

5:08

information that could get their hands on. So

5:11

, um, and these messages, a lot of times

5:13

they look completely, you know, legitimate,

5:15

it looked like , uh , you know, a company

5:18

that you might know and trust. Um,

5:20

so, you know, if you ever get a call

5:22

or email , um, you know, you

5:25

gotta just ask yourself if you questions, you know,

5:27

do I have an account with this company? Um,

5:29

you know, and why would they be contacting

5:32

you? Um, and who's

5:34

the person contacting you. So , uh

5:36

, if you're not sure about any of these , uh,

5:39

questions and answers, I mean, just, it's

5:41

simple, just don't engage, don't respond

5:43

to the email. Um, and if it's a

5:45

phone call , uh, simply just, just hang

5:48

up. Um, you know, I

5:50

have a story , um, something happened to me

5:53

and , um, you know, I'm actually, I'm a

5:55

really skeptical person by nature when

5:57

I get a phone call, I'm just assuming, you know, someone's

5:59

trying to scam me. Um, but I

6:01

got to

6:02

I'm the same way, same way.

6:05

Yeah. So I got a phone call , um

6:07

, a few months ago and

6:09

it was from a utility company or, you

6:11

know, so I thought, and, you know, they had my

6:14

name, my address , um, you

6:16

know, you know, information , um,

6:19

you know, about me and they let me know that

6:21

my bill was past due and in

6:23

order to continue my service, you know, I needed

6:25

to make a payment. Um, and

6:27

actually, I, you know, I was looking for my wallet.

6:29

I was getting ready to make a payment. Um,

6:32

and then, so the person that actually, you transferred

6:35

me over to someone else , uh, and

6:37

then I, you know , uh , like a light bulb finally

6:39

went off and I'm like, Hmm . You know, it sounds kind of

6:41

fishy. Uh , cause the second person that

6:43

I talked to you didn't sound as professional as the

6:45

first one. Um, luckily enough for

6:47

me. So, you know, I had

6:49

a second thought and so I just, I hung

6:51

up. I , you know, I didn't feel right about it.

6:54

Um, so, you know , uh , there was

6:56

the phone number actually showed up on my phone. So

6:59

, um, you know, thank God for caller ID. So

7:01

I Googled the phone number and sure

7:03

enough , um, that phone number came

7:05

up linked to a number of other uh

7:08

Scamps . So , um, you know,

7:11

it really does pay just to do a little

7:13

bit of due diligence. I mean, don't feel

7:15

bad about hanging up and being rude, just

7:17

, um , you know, it takes a couple of seconds for you

7:19

to just , uh , hang up , um,

7:21

you know, Google the phone number, or if it's an

7:23

email, a Google, the number or information

7:26

that's on that email. And just to make sure that

7:28

it's in fact linked to either

7:30

a legitimate FTD number or,

7:33

you know, you might find out like I did that, you

7:35

know, it's, it's not a legit number

7:37

and it's linked to a number of other scams.

7:41

Yeah. I think in

7:43

today's age, you know, we're, we're constantly

7:46

buying more stuff online, shopping,

7:48

online, doing things online and

7:50

all that does is expose us and

7:52

it exposes, you know, our, our

7:54

information. And right now,

7:57

you know , during tax time, these

8:00

scammers look for this opportunity

8:02

to be able to file a bunch of tax returns quickly

8:05

and have it all filtered into their, into their

8:07

out . So I think exactly what you're saying

8:09

there, that, you know, if it walks like a duck

8:12

and sounds like a duck, it's probably a duck. So

8:14

it's, there's, there's

8:16

way to look at it and , and make sure that

8:19

that you're not getting scanned or

8:21

, um , you know, to make sure that the company

8:23

is legit, that's reaching out to you.

8:26

Yeah, definitely. Um, and you know, like

8:28

I said, it just takes a couple of minutes for

8:30

you to just , uh , you know, do a little bit of research.

8:33

Um, and you know, it definitely pays off

8:35

because the , um, you know, the impact

8:37

to a taxpayer, if you get scammed

8:39

is huge. Uh, I mean, you

8:41

know, ID theft victims, they can be exposed

8:44

to credit card abuse , um, you

8:46

know, stolen government benefits.

8:48

And , um, you know, like we mentioned tax

8:50

refund fraud. So , um, you know,

8:52

in addition to refund fraud , um,

8:55

you know, you can , uh, also experience

8:57

, uh, delays in processing your

8:59

returns because , uh, once

9:01

you become a victim of fraud, it actually becomes

9:04

harder for FTB to determine if

9:06

, um , we're dealing with the real taxpayer

9:08

filing a return, or if it's a scam or trying to file

9:11

, uh , you know, for them. So

9:13

, um, you know, the real tax payer , when it comes

9:16

time to file, they may experience delays

9:18

in getting their refunds , um, because

9:21

they'll have to go through additional reviews

9:23

from FTB to make sure that we're actually getting

9:26

the right amount of money to the right

9:28

person. So , um,

9:31

yeah, there's, you know, it's really simple,

9:33

there's a number of things that taxpayers

9:36

can do , um, you know, to protect

9:38

themselves. Um, and we always

9:40

say, you know, the , the strongest defense against

9:42

ID theft is just a practice

9:44

safe computing. Um, and

9:47

you know, this comes , um , you know,

9:49

when we're talking about storing sensitive information

9:51

, um, you know, sharing your information

9:53

with others, it could really be as

9:55

simple as keeping your computers

9:58

, uh, security software up to date , and

10:00

just being cautious about giving out your

10:02

personal information. Um,

10:05

so for you , um, you know, or

10:07

your tax preparer, this , uh,

10:09

you know, basically means, you know, using a firewall

10:12

that keeps your computer secure , um,

10:14

and your software , um, that

10:16

automatically updates to protect against viruses.

10:19

Um, and nowadays, I mean, you know, it's

10:21

really simple to get this software , um, and,

10:24

you know, firewalls to protect your , your computer

10:26

against viruses. So , um, another

10:28

simple tip, you know, always use strong

10:30

passwords , um, and even pass

10:33

phrases to protect your , your personal accounts

10:35

, um, you know, and,

10:38

you know, as important as what information you

10:40

share with others , uh, it's how you share

10:42

it. So , um, you know, under

10:44

no circumstances, should you ever

10:47

, uh , send either a tax return

10:49

info or any personal information over

10:51

public networks , uh, such as social

10:53

media , um, you know, only,

10:56

only provide data through trusted websites.

10:58

Um, you know , uh, as you mentioned

11:00

, um, Brandon, you know, with no

11:04

internet , it's so easy to share information. And

11:07

a lot of times people are completely unaware

11:09

that they're actually sharing personal information

11:11

over the internet. Um, I

11:14

, um , you know, one

11:16

example that I give a lot is sometimes,

11:19

you know, social media is meant to be fun a lot of times,

11:22

and you might see those threads that it's

11:24

like, Hey , um, you know, answer

11:26

these questions and it'll be something fun. Like,

11:28

you know, where do you honeymoon two , how long

11:30

have you been with your husband? What's your

11:32

, um, you know, your , your

11:35

marriage date and just random

11:37

things like that. Like, what's, what's your favorite

11:39

car and you're annoyingly sharing

11:41

, um, possible passwords

11:43

to your accounts and just information

11:46

that hackers may use , um, you

11:48

know, to hack your account. So just

11:50

be wary of things like that on, on

11:52

social , um, especially if

11:54

your social media accounts are public,

11:56

because scammers will use this information

11:59

to try to hack your accounts and gain access

12:01

to your information.

12:03

That's yeah, those are some good tips too. And, you know,

12:05

something I'd like to add as well, and you , and you hear

12:07

it this time of the year, IRS even talks about it too, but

12:10

you know, the quicker you file

12:12

your tax return, you get your tax return

12:14

filed each year , um, you

12:16

know, could less exposure, right?

12:19

So I mean, people are, people are looking if they're

12:21

looking for, to commit tax fraud or identity

12:23

theft through tax fraud. I mean, they're going

12:25

to strike while the iron's hot, which is during

12:27

tax season. So, I mean, if you can, if

12:30

you can get in there and get your return filed , especially

12:32

, you know , using a professional using, you know,

12:35

someone that's been through Ctech and the state of California,

12:37

that's registered and understand

12:40

all the tax laws and understand how to help

12:42

you out. Um, that could be a real

12:44

critical piece too . Um,

12:46

you know, I've even heard of , of some folks that

12:48

, uh, maybe not have to file per

12:51

se , you know, for, for whatever reason, but they've

12:53

actually went and filed a tax return just to make

12:55

sure that no one else is stealing their identity. You

12:58

know, we I've, I've heard of

13:00

scenarios like that in years past where somebody

13:02

that didn't have to file, you know, went

13:04

in, filed a tax return and then found out,

13:06

Oh, this, this social security number is already been, or have

13:08

been used to file a tax return. And

13:11

lo and behold, they had, they had been a victim of identity

13:13

theft. Wouldn't even have known it if

13:15

they didn't do a tax return

13:17

or didn't file a tax return , um, during

13:19

the tax season. So, you know, there there's

13:22

ways to protect yourself and you've laid

13:24

out a lot of good ones, but that's , that's also a piece

13:26

to look out for.

13:28

Yeah, exactly. I mean , uh , the quicker you follow

13:30

your return, the less time you're giving , uh

13:32

, you know , scammers time to , um,

13:35

you know, to commit fraud. So yeah, definitely

13:37

a good tip there. Um,

13:39

Yeah, something I wanted to ask you too, so, you

13:41

know, so we can educate the listeners as well.

13:43

So from a franchise tax board

13:46

standpoint, so let's

13:48

say that, you know, on the FTB side,

13:50

you guys get a tax return that

13:52

you say, you know what, we need a little more information,

13:55

or we need to find out about this tax

13:57

return. How would FTD go

13:59

about contacting the

14:02

taxpayer ? What would that process look like? So, you know, so that

14:04

way people can know if they do have this

14:06

scenario that it isn't, you know , possibly a scam,

14:08

it is maybe widget what's , what's kind of how

14:10

does that process work?

14:13

Yeah. So , uh , if FTB

14:15

has any questions about your return

14:17

, um, more times than

14:19

not, we're going to reach out through postal mail,

14:21

seeking clarification. Uh,

14:23

we will never email you. So that's very important

14:26

that you know, that , um, if we do call

14:28

, uh , which is rare, we'll only

14:30

do so if we can't reach you by

14:33

letter. So, you know,

14:35

if you're not sure that the call is legitimate

14:37

, um, you can always, like I said, hang up

14:39

, uh , you can call our 800 number it's

14:42

+1

14:46

800-852-5711, or you can call the number on

14:48

the form that you get. Um,

14:50

or like I said, just , um, you can simply Google

14:52

the number on the form and make sure that

14:54

, um , that is connected to FTB.

14:57

So, you know , um, like we mentioned, if

14:59

you do get a letter from us from MTV

15:01

, uh , just respond as soon as you can, the

15:04

sooner that we get our questions answered,

15:06

you know, the sooner we can process the return

15:08

and get you a refund. Um,

15:10

however, you know, if you do receive a bill

15:12

or requests for payment that looks suspicious,

15:15

you could simply go to our website at

15:17

, uh , ftb.ca.gov,

15:20

you know, verify , uh, our mailing

15:22

address on our website. And we

15:24

actually , uh, we even have samples of

15:27

the actual letter that we send you, and you can ensure

15:29

that the notice is legitimate. So

15:33

, uh , you know, taxpayers , um

15:35

, like I mentioned, you can go to our

15:37

website , uh , to get more information.

15:39

Uh, we actually have a tech scan page

15:41

with , uh , details on various scams

15:44

and a link to report them. So again,

15:46

that's a ftb.ca.gov.

15:49

Well, that's good. So you can, so you

15:51

guys update that on a regular basis. Like if there's

15:53

some kind of different scam that's going on

15:56

or ones that you've seen, so do you guys update

15:58

that page on a regular basis?

16:00

We do. Yeah. I mean , um , there's, there's

16:02

always new scams going on

16:04

and we work really closely with

16:06

our , um , criminal investigations Bureau

16:09

to , um, see, you know, what new scams

16:11

are out there. So we're definitely , um , always

16:13

updating our website

16:16

And , and just to, for our listeners

16:18

as well, and always keep this in mind

16:20

too. I mean, some people are hesitant

16:22

to report things like this. Um , we

16:24

would beg of you, please do that.

16:27

You know, you're , we have ways

16:29

to keep it to where you'll be anonymous, so you're not

16:31

going to get in trouble for reporting something

16:33

that's going on. And even if you think

16:36

it think it is, but you're not for sure

16:38

just report it up to, you know, FTB or

16:41

Ctech even, just to be sure. And

16:43

let us look at it, investigate it, find out

16:45

what's going on because, you know, you want to , not

16:47

only are you protecting yourself, you're gonna be protecting

16:49

others too, because you know , these scammers,

16:52

unfortunately though, will prey

16:54

on anybody. They don't, they don't care.

16:56

They'll go after anybody. They can. So the

16:58

more reports we get of this and we can look

17:00

into it and see what's going on, just helps you

17:03

and helps the, you know, the tax community.

17:06

Yes. Uh, that, yeah, that's great advice.

17:09

I mean , um, I believe the last time I

17:11

checked the number, it was somewhere between

17:14

68 to 70% of , of taxpayers

17:16

actually use a tax prepare

17:18

, uh , to file their taxes. Um,

17:21

and, you know, unfortunately , uh, tax

17:23

prepares they've increasingly become targets

17:25

for cyber criminals . Um, so,

17:28

you know, you just have to ask your tax

17:31

preparer , how they protect your , your data and your

17:33

information. Um, they , they

17:35

should all have tight policies for

17:37

how they store , um, and delete

17:39

your files after use. Um, you

17:41

know, a lot of times you , you know, you think, Oh,

17:44

only the taxpayers , a victim of , of

17:46

tax fraud, but no , um, you know, definitely

17:48

the tax are also targets

17:50

as well.

17:51

Yeah. And you know, this as

17:53

a tax payer, I mean, this is, you

17:56

know , in some cases, this one is , this is one of the biggest

17:58

financial transactions you do all

18:00

year long. And you know,

18:02

it is, you know, your, your tax

18:05

payer is, is in charge

18:07

and they are in charge of protecting

18:09

your data and making sure your data is safe.

18:11

And, you know, all the , you know , the people that

18:13

are out there that are doing it legitimately, they

18:15

all have a process in place. So I

18:17

think that's a great tip, you know, talk to them about it

18:19

and say how , you know, how's my stuff's going to be protected. What's

18:22

the things that you do. I think you'll be,

18:24

you know, most, most that are doing it the right

18:26

way are going to feel very comfortable telling you how

18:28

they do that and how they keep you safe. Um,

18:31

and if , if you don't get that information from your

18:33

taxpayer or tax preparer, and , and

18:35

they seem to not really know the answer to

18:37

that question, you know, maybe it's time to look

18:39

for somebody else. So maybe , maybe

18:41

you need to change your mind on who's going to do your

18:44

return if that's the scenario.

18:46

Yeah, exactly. I mean, it's not just their

18:48

job to file your taxes. I mean,

18:50

it's their job to protect your information.

18:52

So , um, yeah, I mean, you

18:55

know , don't feel bad about asking your tax repair

18:57

, um, you know, how they protect

18:59

your data and , um, you know, always make

19:01

sure your tax preparer has a professional

19:03

organization affiliation. Um,

19:05

you know, one who can assist you

19:07

if the IRS or the FTB contacts

19:10

you for an audit , uh , of your tax

19:12

return.

19:13

That's a good one too. I mean, we've , we've

19:16

talked about on some different podcasts, but the word

19:18

ghost prepared or scary for a reason, you

19:20

know, and though those ghost preparers are those

19:23

that are doing a return, not signing it,

19:25

I'm not going through SciTech to get registered

19:28

things of that nature. Uh , I guarantee

19:31

they're not affiliated with any professional

19:33

organization . So if the IRS or the FTP

19:36

comes knocking and they have questions,

19:38

just think in the back of your mind, okay. Is my

19:41

tax preparer going to be

19:43

able to help me through this situation or,

19:45

or the group that they're affiliated with, you

19:47

know, such as a CPA group or

19:50

the society of enrolled agents, things of that nature.

19:54

Exactly. Yeah. And , um, you

19:56

know, our , our website , um , actually

19:58

has a list of the members I'm

20:01

calling check out . Um, you know, if you want to

20:03

check , uh, uh, credentials

20:06

for either a CPA or a tax

20:08

attorney , uh , we have all those numbers and

20:10

websites listed on our, on our website.

20:12

So, yeah.

20:13

Great. Yeah. And then also on ctech.org

20:15

, you can double check and make sure your preparer

20:17

has, has done the requirements in the state as

20:19

well. That's good. Yeah.

20:22

So it's just some other tips and we've,

20:24

we've talked about it on some other podcasts, but just

20:26

to kind of remind everybody things to

20:28

look out now for, you know, if they're

20:30

basing their fee on a percentage of your refund

20:32

amount, that's, that's a red flag. There's something

20:34

going on there. Um, if it sounds

20:36

too good to be true, it probably is. Right.

20:40

And, you know, again, you know, no matter who prepares

20:42

your tax return, you're legally responsible

20:44

for the accuracy of that. So always keep that

20:46

in mind, you know, if you feel

20:48

uncomfortable with what's being addressed

20:50

or what's being put on your tax return, just know

20:53

that that's going to be reviewed and looked at by the IRS

20:55

FTB, things like that. And they may have

20:57

questions for you. So, you know, the

20:59

importance of , um, making

21:01

sure that that you're choosing, choosing

21:04

wisely is important, you know, filing

21:06

early is important. Um, looking

21:08

out for the things that Elias had mentioned

21:10

to, to, to keep from, you know, any

21:12

kind of fraud or ID theft

21:14

or things of that nature from happening, just be smart

21:17

about it. And if, if you get a message or get

21:19

an email that looks funny with some kind of weird attachment,

21:22

you know, reach out to the person that did

21:24

your tax return say , Hey, I just got, this is this

21:26

from you. Um , and just

21:29

be, be careful, be careful when you're out there

21:31

and use the resources FTPs website

21:33

C tech.org as well is

21:35

also a good one. Um, you

21:37

have anything else that you wanted to add or why us before

21:39

I wrap up here? Um,

21:42

No , we , we covered a lot, but yeah. I mean , um,

21:45

as we mentioned before, you know, tax season

21:47

is officially open with the IRS and

21:50

FTB , so , um , yeah, it definitely helps to,

21:52

to file early. Uh, if you have any questions

21:54

at all , um , don't hesitate to give

21:56

us a call and , uh , you know, if you're worried

21:58

about, you know, long wait times, we actually

22:00

even have a wait times page. So , um,

22:03

we have a number of different ways you can contact

22:05

us, it's , you know , secure chat, email,

22:07

phone number , um, and you can check

22:09

out, which is the quickest way to contact

22:11

us. So , um, yeah, so I'm

22:13

looking forward to this tax season.

22:15

Excellent. Excellent. Yeah . Thank you so much for

22:17

joining us. I really appreciate it. Um,

22:20

you can hear more about avoiding scams

22:22

on episode one, where we chatted with Rebecca

22:25

Landeros , she's our enforcement partner over at FTB

22:28

as well. And she's the one that actually knocks

22:30

on scammers doors. So she has a very unique

22:32

perspective on what to look for when choosing

22:34

a tax pro . So if you want to check that one out

22:36

or any of our other podcasts, and you can

22:39

check those out on our website, C

22:41

tech dot or org. So that's

22:45

ctc.org . I appreciate your time Elias

22:48

and for all the listeners. Thanks

22:50

for joining us today.

22:53

Thank you .