Episode Transcript
Transcripts are displayed as originally observed. Some content, including advertisements may have changed.
Use Ctrl + F to search
0:01
Welcome to TCN Talks . The
0:04
goal of our podcast is to provide
0:06
concise and relevant information
0:08
for busy hospice and palliative
0:11
care leaders and staff . We
0:13
understand your busy schedules and believe
0:16
that brevity signals respect
0:18
. And now here's
0:20
our host , chris Como
0:23
.
0:24
Welcome to TCN Talks . This is my
0:26
favorite time of the month where mark cohen
0:28
and I actually review or kind
0:30
of call out the top news stories
0:32
of the month from each of our different perspectives . How
0:34
are you ?
0:34
mark , welcome . I'm great , chris . Thank you
0:36
very much . Glad to be here .
0:39
It's always good to have you . Well , mark you ready to
0:41
jump in . Yeah , you bet month
0:43
, march .
0:44
As you know , ch is a long month and there certainly
0:47
was a significant amount of
0:49
news coverage vital to hospice leaders
0:51
in the month of March . While you'll
0:53
be doing your deep dive into what interested
0:55
you from the C-suite , I'd like
0:57
to review the most read stories in March
0:59
, as calculated
1:01
by hospice and palliative care today , and
1:04
discuss the significance from an issues
1:06
management perspective of
1:08
several of those stories . As
1:10
for the most clicked upon stories , thanks
1:13
to the data supplied by Hospice and Palliative
1:15
Care Today publisher , court Tassner
1:18
, who joined us on last month's
1:20
podcast , out of 512
1:22
articles that the newsletter ran in
1:24
the last month , four garnered
1:27
2,000 plus click-throughs and
1:29
another 16 , a sweet 16
1:31
, if you will , given the time of year received
1:34
1,000 or more click-throughs . Quite
1:36
impressive . Court
1:39
currently reports that its readership
1:42
is subscriber-based
1:44
it's a little over 1,500
1:46
, which means that a lot of
1:48
people are clicking through to some articles
1:50
twice , checking back on them or they're
1:52
sharing the newsletter with others who are
1:54
clicking through to read the articles
1:57
. So really impressive numbers . The
1:59
most clicked upon article had nothing to
2:01
do with Medicare
2:03
, vbid reimbursement rates
2:06
, fraud , mergers and acquisitions
2:08
or any other business-related
2:11
topic . The headline of this article
2:13
in McKnight's Home Care Daily speaks
2:16
volumes , rising suicide
2:18
risk among seniors due to loneliness
2:20
, mobility , financial insecurity
2:23
, study , fines . It's a somber
2:25
topic , to be sure , but it's reassuring
2:28
to know that a patient and family care issue
2:30
like suicide
2:32
prevention suicidal ideation attracted
2:36
so much interest from the readers
2:38
of Hospice and Palliative Care today . Second
2:42
most clicked upon article last month was about
2:44
HHS Secretary Becerra's
2:46
problematic testimony before
2:48
the House Ways and Means Committee . The
2:51
topic of the hearing was the budget , but
2:53
a couple of members grilled him on why
2:55
HHS appears to
2:57
be continuing to grant Medicare licenses
3:00
to proprietors of fly-by-night
3:02
Medicare operations in
3:05
states like California and Arizona . These
3:07
were providers requesting
3:10
licenses who listed
3:12
as their business address the same
3:14
address that 100 , 150
3:17
other Medicare providers
3:19
used in a small
3:21
strip mall office
3:23
building in Southern California or Arizona
3:25
. The
3:28
Secretary was clearly not prepared for
3:30
that line of questioning . Medpac's
3:33
release of its March 2024
3:35
payment policy report , somewhat surprisingly
3:38
to me at least , was only the
3:40
third most clicked upon article last month
3:42
, with only three quarters the views that
3:44
the suicide article had
3:47
For those critics who claim hospice
3:50
is all about the money . The contrast between the
3:52
2,700 views for the
3:54
suicide article and the 2,100 views
3:56
of the MedPAC article presents
3:58
a compelling counterpoint . The
4:01
fourth and last article with 2,000 plus
4:03
views was about the technical corrections
4:05
and clarifications to the CAHPS
4:08
hospice survey . It's worth
4:10
noting that the last two articles appeared
4:12
in technical reports and that
4:14
the Becerra item came from a
4:16
congressional committee report . The
4:19
McKnight story on suicide was the only
4:21
general media story among the
4:23
four most click-through articles
4:25
, all of which had 2,000-plus
4:28
hits . Among the sweet
4:30
16 articles that received between 1,000
4:32
and 2,000 views , the big winner was
4:35
one of many reports on the change healthcare
4:38
hack . In the interest of time , chris
4:40
, I won't go through all 16
4:42
of these articles , as I'm sure
4:44
many landed in your list as well , but
4:47
a few that are worth noting . From my
4:49
issues management perspective would
4:51
include first a column
4:54
by a McKnight's home care editor about
4:56
the end of the VBID experiment
4:58
for hospice , entitled CMS
5:01
Hears you , hospice Providers , and
5:04
the editor wrote I chalk chalk this up
5:06
to a win for providers and a clear
5:08
example of advocacy in
5:10
action . Great
5:14
endorsement for the work that the professional
5:16
organizations like NHPCO
5:20
and LeadingAge
5:23
did on lobbying
5:25
against or
5:27
for broader hospice voice on VBID
5:29
.
5:31
And PHI as well .
5:32
Yep and NOC
5:34
. Sorry for that . Next
5:36
, continuing the run of good news coverage
5:39
for PACE . That goes back many
5:41
months now . That
5:48
goes back many months now . Home health care news took note of the
5:50
trend in a March 19 article headline quote home-focused PACE model continues
5:52
to gain traction across US
5:54
. Looking at the positive
5:57
coverage of PACE , it's sometimes hard
5:59
to believe that there are still fewer than 100,000
6:02
PACE participants nationwide
6:05
, although the number continues
6:07
to grow slowly , something we've
6:09
discussed far too frequently . Chris
6:11
, the subject of rural healthcare deserts
6:13
and the closure of rural providers
6:16
again received a lot of attention last
6:18
March from readers of Hospice and Palliative
6:20
Care Today . This was a Becker's
6:23
Hospital CFO report
6:25
article that looked back at
6:27
the 36 rural hospitals
6:30
that have closed since 2020
6:32
. And , as we've said before
6:34
, when the one local hospital
6:37
closes in a small community , it's
6:39
bad for quality of life , home values
6:41
, economic development , employment
6:44
and also every other provider in
6:46
the continuum from local clinics
6:48
and physician practices to skilled nursing
6:51
, home health , hospice and local
6:53
pharmacies . In
6:56
its report , headlined Hospice
6:58
Group Pushes for Clarity in New York State
7:01
Budget as Some Warm
7:03
to For-Profit . The
7:05
hyper-local 24-hour cable
7:08
newscast Spectrum News , serving
7:10
upstate New York , contrasted
7:12
the state's last place ranking
7:14
in hospice access and utilization
7:17
, with suggestions that
7:19
the state may be opening to
7:21
for-profit hospice but
7:23
tying that potential opening
7:25
to the ever-growing interest at
7:28
HHS , ftc and Congress
7:30
in the ramifications of the
7:32
growing presence of private equity across
7:34
the healthcare continuum . And
7:37
one last article I found noteworthy from this
7:39
suite 16 of highly viewed articles was
7:41
this report from Becker's Hospital CFO
7:43
entitled why
7:45
Not-for-Profit Healthcare Systems Need Positive
7:48
Margins , attributed to
7:50
the big four accounting firm
7:52
Deloitte , although the article obviously
7:55
focused on large not-for-profit hospitals
7:57
, every not-for-profit hospice
7:59
leader should be scanning articles like this
8:02
for best practices on how
8:04
to talk about profitability and sustainability
8:07
of their mission-driven organization
8:09
. Profitability and sustainability of their mission-driven
8:11
organization . And before the listeners of this podcast who are at for-profit
8:14
providers start rolling their eyes , you
8:21
too should be scanning articles like this , if only to keep up to date on how your not-for-profit
8:23
competitors ought to be messaging . I'll
8:25
hit the pause button here , chris , but
8:27
I do want to note that , as we're taping
8:29
this segment between
8:31
the Elite Eight and Final Four
8:34
, the women's NCAA basketball
8:36
tournament we did a little trash talking last
8:38
year when your LSU Tigers
8:41
defeated my Iowa Hawkeyes to capture
8:43
LSU's first ever NCAA
8:45
championship . We agreed last year that it was
8:47
a great moment for women's
8:49
collegiate athletics , and
8:52
this year's rollercoaster rematch
8:54
between LSU and Iowa and
8:56
the Elite Eight certainly gave the sport another
8:58
huge boost . This time
9:00
my team emerged victorious and by the
9:02
time this podcast airs I guess we'll
9:05
know whether they prevailed in Cleveland at
9:07
the Final Four . We'll know whether they prevailed
9:09
in Cleveland at the final four . I'd like to close with a reminder
9:11
, chris , that Hospice and Palliative
9:13
Care Today , the newsletter we've
9:15
been referencing and the successor to my
9:18
newsletter , hospice News Today operates
9:20
on a free subscription model . There's
9:22
a growing audience of hospice decision makers
9:25
reading the daily newsletter , which
9:29
accepts only limited advertising . If you're listening to this podcast
9:31
but have not yet subscribed to Hospice and Palliative
9:34
Care today , you should fix that as soon
9:36
as this podcast is over . Back
9:38
to you .
9:38
Chris . All right , thank you , mark
9:41
, and we'll definitely include a link , as we've been doing
9:43
the last couple months , as to your trash-talking
9:45
hats off to the Iowa Hawkeyes
9:47
. Caitlin Clark is incredible , gosh
9:50
, if we're going to be beat as LSU Tigers , what
9:52
a great team to be beat by and what an amazing
9:55
Final Four . I'll always
9:57
draw a corollary back to leadership and hospice
9:59
. When you get four amazing programs like
10:01
that Connecticut , south Carolina , iowa
10:03
and LSU just the competition
10:05
elevates the whole sport , which
10:07
is why great hospice care right , mark
10:09
, right , we don't want those horrible hospices
10:11
. Great hospice care elevates everyone
10:13
.
10:14
So , yeah , I can't wait to see it . Except correction
10:17
your home state of North Carolina . You said
10:19
Final Four and you said LSU . It's
10:21
North Carolina State , yes
10:24
, my bad , my bad absolutely .
10:26
And the men's NC State , yeah , and Duke
10:28
absolutely In the men's NC State and Duke absolutely as well . So really
10:30
really good college basketball this year . All right back
10:33
to hospice . So , mark , I feel like I'm
10:35
getting to drive kind of a really cool sports car
10:37
now . So all of this great data that court's
10:39
giving back , I get to kind of compare to
10:41
what I flag and now I get this really cool dashboard
10:43
. So I flagged 100 articles this past
10:45
month , which is kind of cool because having
10:48
a hundred articles , the number of articles
10:50
corresponds with the percentage . So this is kind
10:52
of high level . Now I'll go through the detail . My
10:54
categories now that have been consistent . So the first
10:57
category is mission moments that's about 7%
10:59
of the articles I flagged . Next
11:01
category is reimbursement challenges , warning
11:03
signs , implications that was 18%
11:06
. Competition to be aware of that was
11:08
12% . Workforce challenges 18%
11:11
. Patient , family , future , customer
11:13
, demographics and trends that's almost a
11:15
quarter . So about 23% . That
11:18
seems to be my biggest category each month
11:20
and maybe because I'm taking it from
11:22
the C-suite perspective , those looking
11:24
out of the windshield kind of trends
11:27
are pretty important to be able to flag . Next
11:29
, regulatory and political that was 4% . Technology
11:32
and innovations that was 12% . I've
11:34
got a maybe it's a weirdly titled
11:36
category , but just the speed of change
11:39
, resiliency and culture . Things had
11:41
0% on that one this month , another
11:43
one I call the human factor You'll see when I
11:45
get to that one article that was 1% . And
11:47
then , finally , about just articles of interest
11:50
that I want to highlight . That was
11:52
actually 4% . So those are my categories , so
11:54
let me go through them . So first , mission moments . The
11:56
first one , a daily Sentinel
11:58
article , is titled living a special life . To
12:01
the end it was a beautiful
12:03
article . It was about a Grand Junction high school
12:05
, colorado Mesa university graduate , enthusiast
12:07
friend of Coach K and lover of sunsets
12:10
and sunrises . It was
12:12
just today's a good day to have a good day . The
12:14
sun will come up in the east and it will set in the west
12:16
. All you have to do is match its energy
12:18
. It was a mantra of Andy Smith
12:21
and again , he was a graduate of Grand
12:23
Junction High School in Colorado Mesa . Just
12:25
a beautiful mission moment . Then
12:27
they had a couple of articles . I won't go through them in
12:29
detail , but President Carter kudos to
12:31
him . I think Mark and I have been calling him
12:33
out for what a year and almost
12:35
a quarter now , of just the
12:37
gift that he has been to the whole hospice movement
12:40
and being very open about his journey
12:42
. So there are a couple of great articles . It
12:47
was Northeastern Global News and an ABC News article . And then a global news
12:49
article because my kids love the new Dune
12:51
movie . Man's Dying Wish was to see the newest
12:54
Dune film . A director actually
12:56
made it happen before the release and so that
12:58
was actually pretty cool . And then there was a Harvard
13:00
Business Review I'm sorry , harvard
13:02
Business School article Case
13:04
Histories of Significant Advances Cicely
13:07
Saunders and the Modern Hospice Movement
13:09
. The case history describes the role of Dom
13:11
Cicely Sanders in shaping the modern
13:14
hospice movement and it's
13:16
narrated in first person through the words
13:18
of her brother , christopher Saunders , as
13:20
told to one of the authors of the paper . So I
13:22
thought that was pretty cool . I'll put that in a mission moment
13:24
and around out this section inspirational
13:27
duo a boy with terminal
13:29
condition and his puppy tackle a hundred
13:31
kilometers challenge for hospice care . This
13:34
was in the UK and just a beautiful mission
13:36
moment story . So that was my first category
13:38
, mark . So the next category was reimbursement
13:41
challenges . So again this was about 10%
13:43
. First one it was kind of a busy
13:45
month for kind of regulatory things . So
13:48
, first off , the physical
13:50
year for 2025 , hospice
13:52
payment rate update proposed rule , and
13:54
so this was from CMS . They're proposing an update
13:57
percentage of 2.6% for next
13:59
year . We'll actually have Judy
14:01
Lundperson coming on a podcast and
14:03
she's going to talk about that a little bit . There are some really
14:06
, I'll say , cool things
14:08
actually were packed into the new release
14:10
of this wage index . Next
14:13
one is this seems kind of like these
14:15
are maybe two sides of the coin . This one was MedPAC
14:18
. Medpac releases
14:20
the March 2024 report and
14:22
in that report they're basically recommending
14:24
no update to hospice . So
14:26
this would be future , beyond 2025
14:28
. And they actually recommended payment reductions
14:30
for three post-acute sectors
14:32
skilled nursing , home health and inpatient rehab
14:35
. So we'll see how that plays out . Medpac
14:37
makes those recommendations and it goes through
14:39
the process that it goes through . Next
14:41
one was nearly 53% of hospices
14:44
undergo multiple
14:46
audits simultaneously . It was an article
14:48
by Jim Parker and hospice news just
14:50
talking about something about 53%
14:53
. So greater than half of the whole field
14:56
is undergoing multiple audits simultaneously
14:58
and of course , that's because the government figures out . They
15:00
make about $5 for every $1 they
15:02
spent on those audits . Next
15:05
is hospice welcomes , vbids , demise
15:07
, and so , as many of
15:09
our listeners know by now that the VBID demonstration
15:11
is being sunset in December Multiple
15:15
. I've been on a couple of podcasts . We've had guests on
15:18
our podcast . We even went back and recorded
15:20
an addendo with Katie Lanz talking
15:22
about that . So that's been all over the news . Next
15:25
, providers meet with OMB to prevent
15:27
the devastating effect of the 80-20
15:29
provision . This is in home care
15:31
, private duty . So stakeholders have been busy
15:34
in Capitol Hill voicing concerns about the controversial
15:36
provision of the proposed
15:39
Medicaid access rule . But the long story short
15:41
of it , the rule is an 80-20
15:43
rule that says 80% of the Medicaid
15:45
payment for personal care must
15:47
go towards the workers' compensation . The
15:50
Medicaid payment for personal care must go towards the workers' compensation
15:52
. So it's an interesting way of kind of capping margins in that kind of segment
15:54
field , if you will . So kind of interesting and always
15:57
take note of those things because you may go . Well , we don't have
15:59
private duty . I always find it funny , mark
16:01
, they call it Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Innovation
16:04
, because you kind of look at what they do to other people and
16:06
you wonder at some point does
16:10
it come to you ? So I think it's kind of paradoxical . It's called innovation
16:12
, all right . Next one is value-based
16:14
care , now driving home-based primary
16:16
care growth . And this was
16:18
interesting this was in McKnight's , when
16:20
the independents at home . So the Centers
16:23
for Medicare and Medicaid Services home-based primary care
16:25
initiative concluded at the end of 2023
16:27
, after more than a decade . It marked the end of an era
16:30
. Over the period of the model , the rise
16:32
of value-based care has given providers a wealth
16:34
of opportunities to bring primary care into
16:36
patients' homes . And then the last
16:38
one in this section CMS cracked
16:41
down on fraudulent hospices providers
16:43
in full effect in 2024
16:45
, expert says . Which is kind of contrary
16:47
to what you were saying about the HHS director
16:49
being on the hot seat . But in recent
16:51
years , unscrupulous hospice providers have cropped up
16:53
in California and other states . In response
16:56
, cms has prepared a slew of tools
16:58
to curtail the fraud . States continue
17:00
to feel the effects . As an example , a hospice operator
17:03
last week was convicted in a fraud
17:05
scheme for billing nearly $3
17:07
million in services that patients
17:09
did not need , according to the Department of Justice
17:11
. All right , so now segueing to
17:13
my next category , which is my Medicare
17:15
Advantage category . I had about
17:18
eight articles in that section . I
17:20
won't highlight all eight of them , but here's just kind
17:22
of an appetizer of them . Nearly half of the health
17:25
systems are considering dropping Medicare Advantage plans Mark Nearly half , which
17:27
is interesting because now we know that greater half of the health systems are considering dropping
17:29
Medicare Advantage plans Mark nearly half , which
17:31
is interesting because now we know that greater about
17:33
50% of total Medicare participants
17:35
are in MA plans . And so
17:37
you see this really interesting , tough
17:40
jockeying . In fact , in the area where I
17:42
live in North Carolina recently
17:44
the largest insurance company
17:47
in the hospital were basically loggerheads
17:49
sent out a notice and said you know , as
17:51
of this date you may not have United or
17:53
this hospital will no longer accept . I
17:56
guess I said the insurance company out loud . Anyway
17:58
, it was a public news and so you
18:01
see a lot of that throughout the country where health
18:03
systems I think are digging in and
18:05
basically not kind of accepting whatever
18:07
the rates that the insurance
18:09
company All right . So here's another one , a
18:12
fond farewell musings on the end of the Medicare
18:14
Advantage Hospice Carven demonstration . That
18:16
was a Hush Blackwell podcast with Meg Prokarski
18:19
. I was honored to be on that with her and
18:21
we talked about the VBID . Next , the
18:23
states where Medicare beneficiaries have
18:25
Medicare Advantage plans . That was in Becker's
18:27
. 26
18:30
states now have more than half of the Medicare enrollees in MA plans and
18:32
, by the way , our listeners . I should have pointed out the
18:35
wonderful thing is now partnering with Hospice about
18:37
care . Today , all of these articles on
18:39
our site is now actually a PDF
18:41
download that goes along with our
18:43
, so you could get kind of a summary of what I'm reading
18:46
from here If you're kind of more of a quicker
18:48
reader than kind of a listener . Summary of what I'm reading
18:50
from here , if you're kind of more of a quicker reader than kind of a listener . Next one is
18:52
UnitedHealthcare . Humana and Aetna continue to outgain their peers
18:54
in Medicare Advantage and now
18:56
these Medicare plans that represent more
18:58
than half of all Medicare beneficiaries
19:00
in MA plans . So
19:03
those are kind of the top MA providers . Another
19:06
one home health disparities . Medicare
19:08
Advantage patients receive fewer visits
19:10
and worse outcomes . So Medicare
19:12
Advantage and how they partner with home health not
19:15
some good outcomes there . And then just the last
19:17
one MA cost management tools may
19:20
be hurting home health quality outcomes
19:22
, so very similar to the one that I just cited . Next
19:25
category is , of course , the
19:28
competition to be aware of . So we had
19:30
about 12% of my articles there
19:32
. Here's just kind of again an appetizer
19:34
. Private equity-backed consolidation divides
19:37
physicians Fewer physicians
19:39
only 46.7 in 2022
19:42
, compared with 60% in 2012,
19:44
. Work in practices wholly owned by doctors . Work and practice is wholly
19:46
owned by doctors . So in other
19:48
words , you're seeing a lot more private
19:51
equity , basically , and how that's
19:53
dividing the physician profession . Next
19:56
, the FTC and Department of Justice signal
19:58
greatly increased scrutiny of private
20:00
equity firms , acquisitions in health
20:02
care . So
20:08
you're seeing a lot more hearings and scrutiny about the influence
20:11
of private equity and what it's doing to healthcare . And
20:15
then next , for-profit nursing homes are cutting corners on safety and draining resources
20:17
with financial shenanigans , especially at mid-sized chains that dodge
20:20
public scrutiny . It was in a
20:22
publication called the Conversation Overall
20:25
. Private equity investors wreak havoc on nursing
20:27
homes , slashing RN hours
20:29
per resident day by more than 12%
20:31
, and it says the aftermath is grim
20:34
, with a dawning 14% surge
20:36
in deficiency score index . All
20:39
right , so that's that category . This is kind of another
20:41
subcategory in the competition . I just call it mergers
20:43
and acquisitions , and so MA
20:45
volume may shift from hospice to home
20:47
health , and so this is a hospice news
20:50
and kind of a project in for 2024
20:52
. Next this was pretty big news Steward
20:55
to sell highly desired
20:57
physician group to Optum
20:59
. The Dallas-based Stewart Healthcare
21:01
plans to sell its physician group to United
21:03
Healthcare Group's subsidiary
21:06
, optum , and the Boston Globe reported
21:08
on this on March 26 . And
21:12
then another , maybe related articles . I kind of find at the same time United's
21:14
purchasing this group , the department
21:16
. So should the Department of Justice break
21:18
up United Healthcare Group ? This is a MedCity
21:21
News . The Department of Justice has reportedly
21:23
recently launched an antitrust investigation
21:26
into United Healthcare Group , which
21:28
begs the question of whether the healthcare giant
21:30
should be broken up . Experts have many
21:32
varying opinions on that . And
21:34
then this was in Home Healthcare
21:37
News , what the UnitedHealthcare Group
21:39
antitrust investigation
21:41
means for a medicine in the home
21:43
health industry . And
21:45
then , mark , this is one I'm sure didn't escape your
21:48
notice I started my career at Covenant Hospice
21:50
in Pensacola . Vitas to buy
21:52
hospice assets of Covenant Care in Florida
21:54
and Alabama , and
21:57
so VITAS for an aggregate purchase
21:59
price of $85 million . And
22:02
that's where I started my hospice career . So that
22:04
includes the Pensacola market , all
22:06
the way throughout the panhandle towards Tallahassee
22:08
and into Alabama . Next
22:11
, private equity set sites on home care
22:13
and hospice . New report
22:15
finds the home care segment increasingly
22:17
has become an attractive target for private equity
22:19
buyers , particularly personal
22:21
care and hospice . Private
22:24
equities plot against older Americans
22:26
, and so this was in the Journal of American Geriatrics
22:29
. Over
22:35
the past decades , more than 140 private equity investment firms have acquired
22:37
entities and major components of healthcare in the United States . All right , so next
22:39
category is workforce challenges , and
22:41
so you might probably remember , mark , I kind
22:43
of substratify those into three categories
22:46
. The first category is these articles
22:48
paint the picture of just the challenge of
22:50
what's going on in the workforce . So this
22:52
first one , 20 states facing acute
22:55
nursing shortages , 20 states that
22:57
was actually in Becker's Next workforce
23:00
trends that CFOs must know
23:02
. Here's the list . Number one resentment
23:05
, resentee-ism , resentee-ism
23:08
I've never heard that word before , but just a
23:10
lot of resentment going on in healthcare . Number
23:12
two rage applying . Like I'm
23:14
ticked off my employer , I'm going to go play at this other
23:16
place and then you wonder why they don't actually
23:19
follow through on the application or the interview or whatever
23:21
. Number three acting your wage
23:23
, kind of interesting play on words . Lazy
23:26
girl jobs , kind of that . Gig economy
23:28
. Career cushioning bore
23:31
out bare minimum Mondays and quick
23:33
talk . So it was kind of a provocative
23:35
article . But there's a lot of interesting kind
23:38
of quips and kind of plays on words in that one . All
23:40
right , so that was the first category of workforce . The next
23:42
category is the implications of the workforce
23:45
shortage . Well , this first one . We've
23:47
seen a lot of this , especially
23:49
last year and now coming into this year , home
23:51
care unionization efforts beginning
23:54
to tick back up . And
23:57
then 2,300 University of Michigan
23:59
health workers unionized as
24:01
part of growing labor movement . And
24:03
then back in my own home state
24:05
, new Orleans , nurses rally before union
24:08
contract negotiations . This is for
24:10
University Medical Center in New Orleans . Nurses rally before union contract negotiations . This is for
24:12
the University of Medical Center in New Orleans . And then this was an interesting
24:15
article , kind of provocative Are the robots coming
24:17
for my nursing job ? And so
24:19
it talks about , while medication dispensing robots
24:21
, telemetry , electronic fetal monitoring
24:24
, artificial intelligence , other technological
24:26
advances have altered our work as nurses
24:29
, and fears that robots will replace
24:31
us and send nurses into the historical
24:33
career dustbin . Maybe
24:35
we could talk about that afterwards . I don't think that'll be the case
24:37
, but maybe it might eliminate
24:39
the things that aren't the best part of the job . Next
24:43
is home care-based employment exceeding
24:45
pre-pandemic levels . So almost on
24:47
all aspects of healthcare , now that
24:49
it actually is actually now beyond
24:52
what was before pre-pandemic , which
24:54
I think is just going to continue to go in that direction
24:56
as you look at the silver tsunami of
24:58
baby boomers , smaller wage
25:00
increases predicted for 2024
25:02
. And so now , as things kind of leveling
25:05
out they're kind of predicting , and also inflation
25:07
is leveling out somewhat , although still prevalent
25:09
. Next is is healthcare
25:11
paying enough attention to nurse leaders
25:13
? And so , just talking about the survey
25:15
of 2,400 nurse leaders they
25:18
were surveyed 35% of respondents indicated
25:20
they were considering an exit from their roles
25:22
, 35% . 12%
25:24
said they intend to leave , 23%
25:26
said they may leave within the next six months
25:28
. And then last article
25:31
, before we move to solutions roughly 1,000
25:33
nursing home workers hit the picket lines across
25:36
the Twin Cities area , and that was a CBS News
25:38
report . All right , so on the solution
25:40
side , I actually had eight this month . I'll
25:43
just give you an appetizer of them . But
25:45
the good thing is I love whenever I see a month of
25:47
a lot more kind of solutions
25:49
of what do we do with those staffing challenges , home
25:52
care providers , creative benefit packages
25:54
are paying off . So some really kind of cool
25:56
quips there of some interesting innovations and
25:58
benefit packages . Next
26:01
one in Becker's , inside Jefferson's
26:03
push to engage retired
26:05
nurses . So interesting innovation
26:07
of how to take those retired nurses who are not
26:09
looking to work full-time again but still
26:11
would like to be doing something . So that was a great article
26:14
. Providence's chief nursing
26:16
officer all hospitals should be using
26:18
these three tools . Number one
26:20
, robots , which is kind of what I was saying earlier
26:22
, wearable monitors and virtual
26:24
nursing , and that being
26:27
part of the solution , which I think it's going to have to
26:29
be there , just not going to be enough human beings
26:31
, considering the volume we're going to have to care for
26:33
. Next , in the MedCity news
26:35
, how the analytics of care can balance
26:37
workforce capacity , and
26:40
just a little sample on that US
26:42
healthcare is experiencing a supply and demand crisis
26:44
as it races to keep pace with the
26:46
aging population , midst of workforce
26:49
shortage and mounting financial pressures , and
26:52
the situation appears unlikely to improve , and
26:54
it's not going to anytime soon . And
26:56
recent projections anticipate a shortfall
26:58
of 139,000 physicians
27:01
in the next decade . And one
27:03
limiting factor preventing the efficient management
27:06
of the workforce resource is lack of data
27:08
and inoperability . In other words
27:10
, what the article is saying is how do we take data
27:12
and then get people to the right place at the right
27:14
time , in other words , spread them so that
27:16
way they can make maximum efficient use of the time
27:18
that they have ? All right , so a few
27:21
more States eye and deny a four-day
27:23
work week . The shortened work week appeals
27:25
to most Americans . A July
27:27
survey found that 81% full-time US
27:30
workforce supports a four-day work schedule
27:32
. 89% would sacrifice something
27:34
else for an extra day off and so but
27:36
interesting multiple states have introduced their own legislation
27:39
to support it , but varying levels
27:41
of success . I have a feeling this is going to keep coming
27:43
up over and over again . Next , physicians
27:46
grow louder on non-competes . As
27:48
you're getting more of a scarce resource , physicians
27:50
are pushing back on something that's been somewhat traditional
27:53
in healthcare , which is contractual non-compete
27:55
clauses . And then just
27:57
last one here in this section , where
28:00
hospices are investing their 2024
28:02
recruitment and retention dollars and
28:04
just had some really good quips and suggestions
28:06
of really smart investment
28:09
in those recruitment
28:11
and retention dollars . All right , mark
28:13
. The next one is the biggest one , so I will
28:15
skip around in this one , because this had 23 articles
28:18
but patient , family and future
28:20
customer demographics and trends . You
28:23
call this one out 36 rural hospitals
28:25
have closed since 2020 . Now
28:28
, next month , I just bumped into an interesting article
28:30
that actually did some margin
28:32
analysis and that had some kind of mixed results
28:35
in it , almost kind of saying that the rural
28:37
hospitals aren't any worse off than all the other
28:39
hospitals . So I have a feeling
28:41
, you know , I'll talk about that next month . Next
28:43
one mortality risk following end-of-life
28:45
caregiving . We've known this for a long time A
28:48
population-based analysis of hospice
28:50
users and their families . Here's
28:53
a couple of key points . Exposure to end-of-life
28:55
caregiving may increase mortality risk
28:57
for the surviving family the longer
28:59
the hospice duration . In being the
29:02
only nearby family member are risk factors
29:04
. Gender and relationship modify
29:06
survivor's mentality risk . Having
29:08
more family members is protective against
29:11
a survivor's mortality risk . Makes
29:13
common sense if you think about it . Right . If just one
29:15
person's carrying that burden Having
29:17
a spouse with dementia is particularly risky
29:20
for surviving widow's health based upon
29:22
that data , all right . When
29:24
the American dream becomes survival short
29:27
, doc chronicles rural health
29:29
care crisis . And so this was in PBS
29:31
, and really , if
29:34
dreams were lightning . Rural healthcare crisis
29:36
a startling look at the challenges facing
29:39
rural communities , in which hospitals are closing
29:41
and leaving residents without options
29:43
for care . All right , let's
29:45
see here . Long-term care costs can cripple
29:47
families with aging loved ones , and
29:50
so this was in the Modesta B . Next
29:53
, most Americans would rather feel 25%
29:56
healthier than live 25%
29:59
longer . So in other words , it's about quality
30:01
of life . Here's how to lengthen your health span
30:03
. That was actually in Fortune , and
30:05
so really great article . This one a little alarming . But when Medicaid
30:07
comes after the family home . This was in the . But when Medicaid
30:09
comes after the family home , this was in the New
30:11
York Times and as family
30:13
members in fact my own wife's family just kind of journeyed
30:16
this . Federal law requires states to seek
30:18
reimbursement from the assets usually the home
30:20
of people who died after receiving
30:22
benefits for long-term care . Let's
30:25
see next . This was a KFF article . The cost
30:27
of long-term care financial ruin
30:29
is baked into the system . Thousands
30:31
of readers reacted to the articles in Dying
30:33
Broke , a series about the financial burden of long-term
30:36
care in the United States . They
30:38
offered assessments for the government market failures
30:40
to drain the lifetime savings of so many
30:42
American families . So a couple
30:45
of thematic articles there and you can see why I called
30:47
it out in kind of trends . Let's
30:49
see here the US prison population Mark
30:51
. I thought this is another interesting kind of macro
30:53
trend . The US prison population
30:56
is rapidly graying and
30:58
prisons are not built for what's coming
31:00
. We know that court is pretty passionate
31:02
about the Angola project and I
31:05
think that's going to be an interesting , maybe like
31:07
a best practice that hopefully we might get to
31:09
see . But I didn't know . Like I
31:12
saw some of the data about
31:14
the aging of our prison population . Let's
31:17
see here . What else do I want to call out
31:19
Scary state . Two-thirds
31:21
of nursing home operators . Two-third
31:24
fear closure
31:26
without some type of staffing relief
31:28
. Of nearly 450 nursing home
31:30
providers surveyed , two-thirds are concerned
31:32
that escalating workforce challenges may force
31:34
them to close their facility . And
31:37
Mark , you called this one out rising suicide
31:39
risk among seniors due to loneliness , mobility
31:42
and financial insecurity . All
31:44
right , so I think that's all . Again , I have a whole
31:46
bunch more . Again , if you guys want to get
31:48
a copy whenever you see it being
31:50
pushed , we have a link and you could get all of the
31:52
ones I cited under that category . Next
31:55
, regulatory and political . The next will go a lot quicker
31:57
because I only had a few under those . So
31:59
, regulatory and political the hospice special
32:01
focus program . What is it and why
32:04
is it important ? This is about how the program
32:06
aims to shed light on poorly performing hospices
32:08
. Cms
32:13
has publicly stated it's looking closely at the hospice industry due to increasing concerns regarding
32:15
fraud , waste and abuse . And then the secretary
32:18
. How do you say his name ? You said Mark is Becerra
32:21
Becerra , secretary
32:23
Becerra . So his testimony . This
32:26
was on a different one . We're with you on telehealth
32:28
flexibilities . And so how ? The flexibility
32:31
that came out of COVID and the basic saying we're with
32:33
you health care . So hopefully maybe they'll
32:35
codify those things to stay going forward
32:37
. This was a hospice news
32:39
article by Holly Vossel how
32:41
CLN laws influence hospice
32:44
quality and program integrity
32:46
Variations in hospice state
32:48
. Cln the acronym state laws
32:50
are raising program integrity concerns
32:53
. And then last one , in this section , legislation
32:56
aims to increase scrutiny of private
32:58
equity healthcare acquisitions and
33:00
we'll , of course , pointed that out a little bit earlier as
33:02
well and one of my favorite
33:05
categories , which is technology and innovations
33:07
. And so let's see here I've got
33:09
how many . I've got 12 articles . So
33:11
again I'll do an appetizer Five
33:14
weeks of uncertainty , how the change
33:16
breach has unfolded . I mean , mark , this is probably
33:19
the most impactful cybersecurity attack
33:21
that I could think of , as far reaching
33:23
throughout healthcare . And then now
33:25
there's even starting to be government hearings about
33:27
how did this happen ? And then also
33:30
kind of the reaction to it . And there's
33:32
also been some kind of blowback to
33:34
. You know , a lot of people have had cashflow crisis
33:36
and United has offered some things , but
33:38
some people feel like it was maybe
33:40
not enough as far as what it could have been . And
33:44
coming out of that , double your
33:46
cyber security spending . Cio
33:48
warns amid change healthcare attack
33:50
, and so obviously I think that's
33:52
going to be really interesting on the backside . Next
33:55
, digital avatars and personalized
33:57
voices how AI is hoping to restore
33:59
speech to patients . That was actually
34:02
in JAMA , and the conversation is part
34:04
of a series of interviews with the editor-in-chief
34:06
and guests exploring issues surrounding the
34:08
rapidly evolving intersection of
34:11
artificial intelligence and medicine . And
34:14
then this was in modern healthcare , which
34:16
I felt like this probably maybe
34:18
because you think , oh , ai , maybe it's going to just
34:20
change everything tomorrow . This says give
34:23
generative AI another decade
34:25
to revolutionize healthcare , and
34:27
just talked about what
34:30
it's going to take for us actually to get to that point
34:32
. So another decade , we'll probably be blown
34:34
away where we're going to be , and so you'll see
34:36
a trajectory throughout the next 10 years
34:38
. Let's see here . The US healthcare
34:41
system should focus on pre-acute
34:43
care , not post-acute care
34:45
. I think that's a term we've been using for quite a
34:47
while . This was in Forbes . Us
34:49
healthcare system focuses an enormous
34:52
amount of money and attention on post-acute
34:54
care medical treatment patients receive
34:56
after they've been discharged from a hospital . But
34:59
would it be more cost-effective and far better for
35:01
patients to refocus on what you might
35:03
call pre-acute care and
35:06
how we prevent those re-hospitalizations in
35:08
the first place , amen . I feel like we
35:10
spent a lot of our career in that and with hospice-empowered
35:12
care . Let's see here . I'll
35:14
kind of skip a few . Let me do one more
35:16
how AI will help the world's
35:19
top hospital CEOs transform
35:21
healthcare . That was in Newsweek and
35:23
again kind of that . It's
35:26
a sexy title . Artificial
35:28
intelligence is quickly showing the potential to
35:30
revolutionize many aspects of caregiving
35:32
, from cancer diagnosis to clerical
35:35
work . With the release of Newsweek's ranking
35:37
of the world's best hospitals , executives
35:39
at leading hospitals around the world told us how
35:42
they're going to use the power of AI to transform
35:44
the future . All right , last couple articles
35:46
, mark . This next one is I always kind of put
35:48
it in the human factor
35:51
category . It says what you should
35:53
and shouldn't say to a friend going
35:55
through a major illness . It was an
35:57
MSN article and
35:59
just here's kind of five key points . I
36:02
love you , I'm here for you . I don't
36:04
exactly know what to say , but I'm thinking of you
36:06
. I can't imagine how you're feeling , but
36:08
whatever your emotions , you're experiencing are perfectly
36:10
valid . Let me do X
36:13
, fill in the blank for you how does that sound ? And
36:16
you don't have to say anything . I just thought that was a
36:18
great human interest article . All
36:20
right . The last one , I kind of put my 10th category
36:22
is things I wanted to kind of call out . This
36:25
was interesting for me because kind of it's the
36:27
windsock of where things are blowing in the future
36:29
Five C-suite
36:32
roles that talent leaders are looking
36:34
out for . So think about that Talent
36:36
leaders , talent recruiters Number one
36:38
. Chief information officers
36:40
and cybersecurity executives Number
36:43
two data analytics and
36:45
business intelligence executives . Number
36:47
three dual C-suite
36:50
roles . So people are playing multiple roles
36:52
, let's say like a chief experience officer and
36:54
chief nursing officer or chief experience
36:56
officer , chief operating officer . The
36:59
fourth is chief population health
37:01
officers and then the fifth , chief
37:03
clinical officers , chief nursing officers
37:06
and service line executives . So
37:08
busy month , mark , busy month
37:10
. Any comments on that before I hand it to you
37:13
for your masterclass ?
37:14
A lot of
37:16
things for readers , hospice
37:19
leaders to keep an eye
37:21
on , and it's great to have hospice
37:23
and palliative care today to help you sort
37:26
through everything and pick out
37:28
that which is most important to you while
37:30
keeping you abreast of a broader
37:32
field of interest .
37:34
Thank you to our TCN Talks sponsor
37:36
, deltacarerx . Deltacarerx
37:40
is also the title sponsor for our
37:42
April and November 2024
37:44
Leadership Immersion Courses
37:46
. Deltacarerx is primarily
37:49
known as a national hospice PBM
37:51
and prescription mail order company . Deltacarerx
37:55
is a premier vendor of TCN and
37:57
provides not only pharmaceutical care
37:59
but also niche software
38:01
innovations that save their customers
38:03
time , stress and money . Thank
38:06
you , deltacarerx , for all the great
38:08
work you do in the end-of-life and
38:10
serious illness care no-transcript
38:48
for a second month in a row .
38:50
And like last month , where the subject was
38:52
shorthanding the name of your hospice , this
38:54
month's topic likely will be a bit uncomfortable
38:57
for many . The subject
38:59
stock photography On
39:01
your website and your printed marketing
39:03
materials and if you utilize
39:06
a paid news release distribution
39:08
service , perhaps even to accompany
39:10
your news releases , if you choose
39:12
to pay for a stock photograph to
39:14
accompany your release , if you choose to pay for a stock
39:16
photograph to accompany your release , stock photography photographs , often
39:18
using paid models , you either
39:20
obtain for free from a website or
39:22
other provider or purchase from a
39:24
commercial source . They
39:35
do nothing to define your brand , differentiate your brand from your competitors or
39:37
communicate an accurate hospice message . One reason why that's the case is that there are
39:39
so few stock photos that show someone who
39:43
might possibly remotely
39:45
look like a hospice patient , so
39:48
that many hospices end up using photos
39:51
of seniors , even seniors
39:53
in a hospital bed or wheelchair , who
39:55
look like they are more likely to go out and play
39:57
three sets of tennis or a round of golf
39:59
than die within the next six months
40:02
. Stock photos of seniors generally
40:04
are more appropriate to sell an incontinence
40:07
product or an erectile dysfunction
40:09
medication than they are to illustrate
40:11
the benefits of a timely and appropriate
40:14
admission to hospice the
40:17
benefits of a timely and appropriate admission to hospice but the photographers
40:20
in the photo agencies that sell photos to marketers of every description . There isn't a
40:22
whole lot of money to be made taking and
40:24
selling photos of people who look like
40:26
they're terminally ill . So even
40:28
if you're convinced that you don't need photos of
40:30
healthy , smiling people when describing
40:33
the benefits of hospice on your website , there
40:35
are not a whole lot of realistic looking photos
40:37
from which to choose . That
40:40
, of course , assumes you're even willing to pay for stock
40:42
photography , and while there is
40:44
a lot of expensive stock photography
40:47
available to anyone with a credit card , most
40:49
hospice marketers find themselves limited
40:52
by budget to utilizing
40:54
either rights-free stock photography
40:56
, photography for which there is no
40:58
cost , or stock photography with
41:01
a ridiculously low purchase price
41:03
of , say , $100 for
41:05
a photo . Using
41:11
no-cost or low-cost photography raises another problem the fact that your competitors might
41:13
choose to use either the exact
41:15
photo or a similar
41:17
photo from a set of photos with
41:19
the same model in the same setting
41:21
, and my question is how does that
41:23
help define and differentiate
41:25
your hospice brand ? If
41:28
you choose to rely on stock photography to
41:30
illustrate your brand , there are definite risks and
41:32
rewards the reward of paying
41:35
nothing for the photographs you
41:37
use versus the risk of your crosstown
41:39
competitor using the same photo
41:42
. Now you can purchase
41:44
stock photography . Paying , say
41:46
, $500 for a photograph likely
41:48
limits the number of your competitors who would
41:51
even consider buying that same photograph
41:53
. You can even spend a lot more
41:55
to secure exclusivity
41:57
, meaning the photo can't be sold
41:59
to anyone else during a specific time
42:02
frame , usually a year or two , or
42:04
maybe a specific geographic
42:06
market . Many hospices , however
42:08
, will say that they would never spend several
42:11
hundred dollars for a stock photograph , but
42:14
they insist on using stock photographs . And
42:17
to those who say I couldn't possibly
42:19
pay $500 for a photo
42:21
, what I'm hearing you say is
42:23
our valued 40-year-old
42:25
brand isn't worth $500
42:28
. But there are other
42:30
solutions aside from stock photography
42:33
. One is to build your own photo
42:35
library using a local photographer
42:37
and actual patients , with
42:39
appropriate permissions , of course , from patients
42:41
and families . Another , less
42:44
obvious solution is to stop using
42:46
photos of people to illustrate your website
42:48
and your marketing materials altogether
42:51
. You can use objects or
42:53
symbols , or you can use drawings
42:55
of people and situations instead of actual
42:57
photographers . As
43:00
there are libraries of stock photographs
43:02
, there are also libraries of illustrations
43:05
, all done in a singular style
43:07
, many of them with a healthcare theme . Some
43:10
are actually quite good and the cost is
43:12
usually quite manageable usually
43:14
cheaper than stock photography and it allows
43:16
you the drawings , allow
43:18
you to change the color palette so you could end
43:20
up with drawings
43:23
that are reflective of the color palette of your
43:25
brand , for example . I'm
43:27
sure that by this time some listeners are
43:30
wondering whether this is much ado
43:32
about nothing . I've
43:34
got probably a dozen real-life examples
43:36
from my career in healthcare communications
43:38
, chris , that demonstrate there actually
43:40
is much ado , and I'll close with
43:43
two . First , there
43:45
is a universally recognized stock
43:47
photo rights-free of
43:50
a young Black woman , likely a nurse , dressed
43:53
in scrubs with a stethoscope
43:55
slung around her neck . The photo
43:57
is at least 35 years old
43:59
. I remember seeing it when I
44:02
was at Jackson Memorial Hospital in the
44:04
early 1990s and it
44:06
is the go-to
44:08
photo for nurse recruitment
44:10
advertising . It is so
44:12
overused , even today
44:14
, in fact , that any clinician who
44:17
spent any time at all looking for
44:19
a next job has likely run
44:21
into the photo and the promotional materials
44:24
from dozens of prospective
44:26
employers . Employers
44:28
use this photo to convey the sense
44:31
of a young , diverse workforce , I
44:34
think , to the clinician who's seen the
44:36
photo multiples of times it
44:38
actually sends a different message that
44:40
you are no different than any of a dozen
44:43
other providers seeking to recruit
44:45
clinicians . And
44:47
then a personal story . In the mid-1990s
44:50
I joined a small hospital system
44:52
that had undergone a million-dollar rebranding
44:55
a year earlier . Cardiothoracic
44:57
surgery was one of the few highly
45:00
profitable service lines at this hospital
45:02
and it was a huge part of our TV
45:04
, print and outdoor advertising
45:06
campaigns . The print and outdoor
45:09
advertising designed by the agency
45:11
that had led the rebrand used a
45:13
retouched photo of an older
45:15
male receding hairline in
45:17
a suit and tie , with his hands
45:20
raised toward the heavens , standing
45:22
in the surf . The hospital was
45:24
located on the east coast of Florida . I
45:27
asked the agency about the photo and they assured
45:29
me it was unique to our campaign . But
45:32
about six months after I got to this hospital
45:34
system , a national LASIK surgery
45:37
chain that had offices in
45:39
and around our market launched
45:41
a large national outdoor advertising
45:43
campaign featuring the same
45:46
photo of the business-suited
45:48
elder male reaching skyward without
45:51
the surf . Our agency
45:53
, in fact , had used a low-dollar
45:55
stock photo with very limited
45:57
exclusivity rights as the centerpiece
46:00
of a campaign supporting our most
46:02
profitable service line . Now
46:05
, since I'm competing here , in this case
46:07
with a national advertiser
46:09
, there was no way I was going to convince
46:11
them to end
46:13
their campaign , so I had no choice but
46:16
to take down the billboards and redesign
46:18
the print advertising . The agency
46:20
did not discount its fee when redesigning
46:22
the campaign and
46:28
within a year or so the agency no longer handled our
46:31
account . The
46:33
bottom line stock photos may be budget-friendly , at least in the
46:35
short run , but they are generally costly to your brand and there are
46:37
better solutions . So
46:41
that's our master class this month
46:43
. I hope it causes a stir among people
46:45
who have plastered the
46:47
same stock photography their competitors
46:50
use all over their website and
46:52
their print materials . It's really a discussion
46:54
that people ought to be having , particularly
46:57
when they're approaching a rebrand .
46:59
Thank you , mark . You're always thought-provoking . When
47:01
you were talking about the one that's gotten used
47:03
, that's really old . Your point is
47:06
that if everyone's using
47:08
the same picture , you're not painting
47:10
any picture very unique . It's almost like if
47:12
you walked into my home and I had pictures on the wall
47:14
and it was the stock photography
47:16
that comes with the advertisement , as opposed to pictures
47:18
of my own family . That doesn't
47:21
tell you very much about our family . It doesn't
47:23
feel very personal and that's the vision
47:25
that kept coming to me . There's no joke
47:27
that my wife and I , years ago , we brought this amazing
47:29
comedian to one of our hospice events and
47:31
one of his key funnies was
47:34
he goes you know the first two kids . You got pictures
47:36
all over the house and by the last two kids you
47:38
just keep the stock picture that's in there
47:40
. It's got a funny
47:42
way of making your same point . And so
47:44
well . I appreciate you , mark . You always make us think
47:47
and to our listeners , we really appreciate
47:49
you . Make sure you subscribe Also
47:52
. Pay this forward to lots of your friends in
47:54
the hospice field . And
47:58
so , as always , mark and I want to leave you with a quote . This one is from Minot Simmons no
48:00
pleasure , philosophy , no sensuality
48:03
, no place . No power , no material
48:05
success can for a moment give such
48:07
inner satisfaction as
48:09
the sense of living for a good purpose
48:12
. Thanks for listening to TCN Talks
48:14
.
Podchaser is the ultimate destination for podcast data, search, and discovery. Learn More