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Bonni Stachowiak [00:00:00]: Today on episode number 507 of the Teaching in Higher Ed podcast, Higher Education for All, including those with intellectual and developmental disabilities with Tamara (Tami) Shetron. Production Credit: Produced by Innovate Learning, maximizing human potential.Welcome to this episode of Teaching in Higher Ed. I'm Bonni Stachowiak, and this is the space where we explore the art and science of being more effective at facilitating learning. We also share ways to improve our productivity approaches, so we can have more peace in our lives and be even more present for our students. Tamara (Tami) Shetron joins me today to talk about higher education for all, including those with intellectual and developmental disabilities. She is the inaugural program director of Texas State University's Bobcat RISE program, an inclusive postsecondary education program for students with intellectual and developmental disabilities. RISE stands for resilience, independence, self determination, and empowerment. Bonni Stachowiak [00:01:23]: Tami became interested in post secondary inclusion during her time as the music, drama, and spiritual instructor for a residential facility for peoples with cognitive disabilities, which you'll hear about in the interview. In response to her growing awareness of the vulnerability of this population, she began to explore other opportunities that might support their academic, social, and vocational development and promote greater independence. In 2020, Tami earned her PhD in developmental education from Texas State University, with research taking a critical perspective on postsecondary inclusion. She has presented at numerous conferences on topics ranging from critical approaches to postsecondary inclusion to the use of tableau theater to understand embodied learning in literacy classes. She's published in several peer reviewed journals and published a book chapter in radically dreaming, illuminating Freerian in turbulent times. Tami comes from a creative family and spent the first half of her adult career running a private music studio while raising children. She feels very fortunate when her two passions, arts and inclusion, converge. She wrote and directed a half dozen musicals for her students while working at the residential facility and helped form 2 theaters for peoples with disabilities in Central Texas. Bonni Stachowiak [00:03:02]: In addition to her work with Bobcat RISE, she's currently participating in research on how community based arts organizations working with students with intellectual developmental disabilities adapted their teaching pedagogies, curriculum, and artistic outcomes in the shift to virtual instruction during COVID 19. Tami, welcome to Teaching in Higher Ed. Tamara (Tami) Shetron [00:03:29]: Hello. Bonni Stachowiak [00:03:30]: We are going to dive straight into it, to the core of who you are. To your very being, would you talk about some of the values that you hold around inclusion? Tamara (Tami) Shetron [00:03:43]: Sure. Yes. I'll give you a background of how I got into this field, which was I worked at a residential facility for people with cognitive disabilities and tying this back to the value. As part of my interview for the job, it was the only job that had to be interviewed by the company president because it was a spiritual instructor as well as music and drama. Bonni Stachowiak [00:04:06]: Mhmm. Tamara (Tami) Shetron [00:04:07]: And during that interview that the president asked me, what do you feel about educating people with intellectual disabilities? And I thought, what do I feel? And I remember this cross stitch I did a long time ago that had this lovely quote, and the quote is, what we are is God's gift to us, and what we become is our gift to God. And so I just blurted that out, and the president jumped up out of his seat, and he ran to his bookshelf, and he had the same exact quote on a plaque on the bookshelf, and he just said, you're hired. So I think that really does distill how I my value about this is that we're all human, and we all should have the opportunity to grow and develop across the lifespan. And a lot of the a lot of times, that's just not true for people with intellectual disabilities. They get boxed away, and they don't have those opportunities. Bonni Stachowiak [00:05:00]: Yeah. How how interesting to have heard that in a job interview you're hired. I mean, most of us don't get that information that instantaneously. And for people who are listening now who maybe don't have any semblance of a program like this at their university, I wanna do a bit of foreshadowing for listeners that I know that not only are you gonna be educating us today about what programs look like this across the United States, and maybe you might even mention other areas of the world too. But just for people listening, you you also have to offer us in this field and this and this way of thinking more inclusively even if we don't have a program like this at our at our institution. So I think one of the lessons I'm already drawing from becoming familiar with your work is we don't just need to think in ways that, you know, this population needs this, and then this other one doesn't. That this is really much more of a spectrum and that we all can receive gifts as far as how to think about both cognitive abilities and cognitive disabilities. So hang hang Bonni. Bonni Stachowiak [00:06:08]: Even if this is a area maybe where your university doesn't have a formal program like some of the ones that Tami is gonna be telling us about. Tamara (Tami) Shetron [00:06:16]: Yeah. No. I that's a great intro to this because I'd like to take it, from higher education standpoint. My background is in a field called developmental education, which is some people used to call it remedial education, but the term evolved into developmental because remedial is the idea of fixing things, whereas developmental follows more the natural human cycle of growing and developing across the lifespan. And in that program, it actually developmental education has been around for a long time. Even Harvard in the 1600 had a developmental program, a reading program to help struggling students. But in the 19 fifties when the, GI student bill started, a lot of students were coming to school because they were getting funding, but they weren't college ready. So I'm not gonna give you the whole history because you're like, why are you telling me this? Bonni Stachowiak [00:07:11]: I'm ready for it, though. I'm already interested. Tamara (Tami) Shetron [00:07:13]: I'm ready. So but over time, we learned that different populations struggle for different reasons. They may have been underserved in their k through 12 education. They may come from a low socioeconomic background. There can be any number of reasons why students struggle, and so we have created different pathways to support students from different backgrounds so that they can succeed. And when I started my program, I said, I want to study supporting students with intellectual disabilities. So you used the word that was one of my favorite words, the spectrum. Right? So I I want to stretch the notion that higher education is for everyone without making a cutoff. Tamara (Tami) Shetron [00:07:57]: And I did struggle Bonni my program because people would say, oh, you mean ADHD, dyslexia? And I said, no. I mean, like, Down syndrome and low IQ and, really, someone who would not be able to to matriculate in a college through traditional testing, things like that. And the response would always be, oh, those people don't go to college. They don't go to college. So that's my approach to this is that everyone can learn. And some of the buzzwords for me are that college is a socially valued place, and they can be with their peer group, which is crucial to development. Just being in the the the same flow with the people that you are in k through 12 education, Without these programs or similar types of inclusive supports, these students, they hit 12th grade, and their peer group hits 12th grade. Graduation comes, and their peer group just disappears, and they're left behind. Tamara (Tami) Shetron [00:08:55]: So this is one way to bring them along. Bonni Stachowiak [00:08:59]: Since you've said that it's helpful for us to think about this in terms of a a spectrum or a continuum, let's let's play with that a little bit. I'd like to have you share a few different examples of what that continuum might look like. So if we don't want that to be this artificial cutoff, and you you said those people, you know, is it what what are some different ways that those people, which I realize it's a broad range of people, but what are some of the programs? What take us to those campuses? Take us to those classrooms. What is a range of experiences we might be able to observe students like this having? Tamara (Tami) Shetron [00:09:36]: Sure. Sure. So there are many types of programs because they generally start in local situations, either by a group of concerned parents and stakeholders at the local level who realize we want to make a difference in the lives of these students. What can we do locally? They can be a partnership between a high school and the local college to a full blown we are just starting this semester, but we are a 4 year residential inclusive program. There's a whole, you know, world of different programs out there. Our program has about 40% of inclusion in traditional college classes. Our students go to classes that any other student can go to. They do not get credit for them, though. Tamara (Tami) Shetron [00:10:24]: They will be graded perhaps on a different rubric. They may be graded for attendance as a bigger part of the grade, and participating might be a big part of the grade as opposed to writing a 2,000 word paper. They might and and their their assignment may be altered so that instead of a 2,000 word paper, they dictate something into a recording, make a video, do a PowerPoint, something like that. So they're demonstrating that learning is happening, but to the best of their ability, and they're not just to whatever the teacher dictates at the time. Some programs only have stand alone classes that are designed just for the students in their program. We have some of those. Our students do take those courses because they are essential. They have things like independent living skills, finances, personal finances, health and wellness. Tamara (Tami) Shetron [00:11:22]: We just finished our very first semester within the course they took was called campus and self, and that just helps students to get to know themselves better, but also the resources that our campus offers for students. But then what makes these programs different than a a normal typical college experience is they are designed to help students get employment. That is a big factor. And so for our program, a good 40% of our program is employment focused. Every semester, they have an employment support class. We just finished our first one, and it had resume building, soft skills for interviewing, just beginning employment type knowledge. But in that class, the students also went on field trips every week to different job opportunities on the campus. They had so much fun. Tamara (Tami) Shetron [00:12:18]: They know more about our campus than I do right now. They went to the athletics building. They went to a food service on our campus, and they learned this is so random, but we have a noodle, like a pho pho, however you say that, soup vendor, and they have a $40,000 noodle making machine. And our students got to go see Bonni Stachowiak [00:12:43]: I'm taking notes while you're typing come again? You're gonna have to repeat that. Tamara (Tami) Shetron [00:12:49]: $30-40,000 noodle making machine. Tamara (Tami) Shetron [00:12:52]: Our students got to see it. I'm I'm a little jealous. That's awesome. They they've just been everywhere on campus learning all the possible jobs that they might get. Next semester, they'll have job shadowing opportunities. And so this semester kinda was like, well, these are the different types of job. What what what do you think you would be interested in? So so programs can vary. They can be only employment focused. Tamara (Tami) Shetron [00:13:16]: They can only be focused on certain types of employment. Ours is more of a liberal arts education with a strong employment component. Bonni Stachowiak [00:13:28]: When you think through your experience, I know that your doctoral research was also in these related areas. What are some of the misconceptions that you wish you could wave a magic wand and help society, be remedied from? Tamara (Tami) Shetron [00:13:43]: I think that one of the program directors that I interviewed for my research said it best, and that is the power to grow and develop is in the student. You don't have to really do anything to make it happen. The nobody else needs to have a special skill set. You just need to invite them in. And there is a misconception that I can't work with these students because I need special knowledge. I need to, you know, be an expert. You don't. The the thing that that supports them the most is just plain out inclusion. Bonni Stachowiak [00:14:19]: And talk more about that. So so if you were talking to someone like me who doesn't have experience teaching in a classroom like that, gosh, if I wanted to get into this, what what would I need to to do in there in order to be equipped for that? Tamara (Tami) Shetron [00:14:32]: Sure. As an instructor, most of these programs wouldn't just hang you out to dry on your own. We do offer support. I have a instructor training that I do, and I always start it by accessing prior knowledge. I start every training with what's your earliest knowledge of disability, and I am always surprised at the wide array of answers I get from, I have a sister or brother with a profound disability to I have a disability to my uncle. I remember my uncle growing up at Christmas parties, you know, and all these stories come out. And then we move into, well, what do you need to know about this population to really support them? And and beyond the most obvious, the inclusive part, Sometimes there are general characteristics. It doesn't apply to everyone, but a student with an intellectual disability may speak slower. Tamara (Tami) Shetron [00:15:26]: You may need to slow down your pace to let them talk, which is we are a fast paced world. We don't like to do that. Sometimes they need to hear things more than one time. We sometimes, I think, as instructors, have this attitude. I already told you once. Why are you making me repeat this? It's in the syllabus. Don't make me be an actual guide. Right? But these students really do need you to be a guide, and they you may need to really explain things deeply that that a neurotypical student might not need. Tamara (Tami) Shetron [00:15:59]: Other things is that if you can arrange for them to have a pair them up with a peer in the class, someone that can kind of help them keep where we are in the book, what are we doing, what are we, you know, what are we Bonni, sometimes they have characteristics that you just don't see in neurotypical students. They may have repetitive motions, things like that, and you just get used to it. You overlook it. You look beyond the external into the internal of the student, and then you'll be successful if you just let them be there. Bonni Stachowiak [00:16:32]: And where where would you encourage us to be drawing from that? I mean, as you were sharing the examples of slowing ourselves down as somebody who tends to move way faster than I need to, a higher percentage of the time in life than I might like. I mean, that that was the one example I had. You were you were sharing about maybe you need to repeat something more than once, and I just had this flashback to an interview a long time ago that I did with James Lang where he was talking about that feeling where you're like, oh my gosh. I just gave you the directions. Dave I've put you into groups, and you're supposed to follow directions. And then for him to know, no. Have a slide up with the directions. Tamara (Tami) Shetron [00:17:16]: Yeah. Bonni Stachowiak [00:17:17]: And that any of us, for a whole host of reasons, might have just for a moment. It could be a a momentary thing where I was thinking about something else because I just you you don't know what I just walked in here from. Am I am I carrying baggage that I'm still trying to process something that happened outside? Am I hard of hearing? Am I am I I mean, so it's like the the the things that you were sharing, I feel like there's more that we can say. What else can we draw from what you're learning about how to be effective at meeting these learners' needs that really would apply to a whole wide range of of learners? Tamara (Tami) Shetron [00:17:53]: Well, it's Bonni. As we're talking, I'm realizing it's it's very difficult to talk about this in this linear manner because so much. So I feel like I'm giving these very incomplete answers or almost kinda tongue tied answers because even while I was saying that, I was thinking, but we also have a study group every day for an hour. Our students meet up for an hour every day with a graduate assistant who makes sure that they know what their assignments are, provides any assistance that they need, helps them gather materials, helps them plan, kinda does that external calendar work for them, and how many students would benefit from this? We have so many, you know, learn to learn courses that teach project management planning skills. Right? But some people just you know, especially if you're in the moment and you're all stressed out, doesn't matter if someone's teaching you how to do it. You still can't do it because you're too busy in your own head. So we have built in every Dave. Someone else helps them get organized and make sure they understand everything. Bonni Stachowiak [00:18:58]: And like you said so much, the the what you're describing in terms of the social components, that's something that I've seen the when we're able to do that, when we can bake that in and design that into learning experiences. And I've seen what it looks like when I have failed at that. So I'm seeing so many parallels, which we we talked about a lot. What what would you like to share in terms of policy developments in this area? So you've shared about your values of wanting there not to be these sharp cutoffs and who higher education is accessible for. What should we be aware of as citizens in terms of of the policy? Tamara (Tami) Shetron [00:19:35]: Yeah. I think this can go in several directions. The first direction I'm gonna take is global. There are global policies that, I think it's the National Convention on the Rights of People with Disabilities and Dave I forget right now. I'm not writing my dissertation, but it dictates continuing education for people with disabilities is a human right. So we have that global support that that everyone in the world should value this. And at the national level, we have the Higher Education Opportunity Act that in 2008 first listed students with ID as a college going population. So that is the very first protection and and inclusion formal inclusion of these students in higher education. Tamara (Tami) Shetron [00:20:21]: With that act came funding to start model programs, and other programs had existed and they do exist without that funding. But it started also a national coordinating board, Think College, that tracks all these programs, does tons of research on these programs, what works, what doesn't work, what are best practices. Those have led to standardization well, not standardization, but standards that we should aspire to, which if your program does meet certain standards, they get this identification called a comprehensive transition program or a CTP. And when you get that designation, then your students can be eligible for federal financial aid. They can get Pell Grants, work study, supplemental education opportunity grants. They can't get loans, though. But you can see these policies have ramped up to make it more accessible and not just for people from wealthy backgrounds who have who can afford it. In addition to that, they're coming up with new accreditation standards. Tamara (Tami) Shetron [00:21:27]: Those are in the works right now to demonstrate the rigor of these programs. It's not just a place to send your student so they can just live somewhere for 4 years and you don't have to worry about them. There are standards, and different states are creating legislature to really push for the implementation of these programs. I believe in Massachusetts, they I don't think it passed, but there was legislation being created that would mandate all their public institutions to have these programs. I'm in Texas. Texas has some bills that have not passed, but right now, they do have a task force that has to measure all these programs and who is being impacted and how the outreach is being done. So little by little, it's really snowballing into a national movement. Bonni Stachowiak [00:22:20]: You the people can't see your face right now, but when as you described, I saw the frustration or I think I saw frustration on your face in terms of these laws getting introduced and not passed and getting introduced and not passed. So we're gonna get a little depressing here. You've you've filled us with so much hope, and I'm sure you won't leave us without hope as well. But just talk a little bit about some of the exclusionary practices that are problematic with these populations? Tamara (Tami) Shetron [00:22:48]: Yeah. Well so, actually, before we started, I wrote down some statistics because I thought maybe these would come up. Mhmm. The population of people with ID, when they enter the workforce, only 17% get employment, compared to the adult population in America. The good news is if a student goes to these programs, that rate goes up to 61% employment rate, so you can see the impact on them. But there's 328 programs as of today, and you can see that that's not even a drop in the bucket for all the students. So the problem is that these students, they come through college or high school. They get, a lot of times, a fabulous education. Tamara (Tami) Shetron [00:23:32]: Our special education system has has really improved, which is making it more necessary for these postsecondary opportunities. But the students who don't have this opportunity, they frequently get lost in the cracks. They do have special ed programs until age 22, and then you age out of the program is what it's called. So there are opportunities in high schools for continued supports, but a lot of them and it's not even the environment of the education system. A lot of parents don't realize that these opportunities exist, so they start with a low expectation. So I guess that's really the biggest problem is low expectations. I just talked myself into that answer. So instead of starting with it, low expectations is really the biggest problem. Bonni Stachowiak [00:24:23]: You know, as a complete novice in this area, just a little bit of reading the materials you sent over, I I so and then maybe this is this is because I see this has captivated so much of my thinking, but so much of the time, it's when we lack imagination that so we lack an imagination for what kinds of expectations might we Dave, not only to serve the needs of these individuals, but also that it's better for society. You know, that and it maybe share a little bit of hope before we get to the recommendation segment about what kinds of better like, why do this? Because there's other ways that someone could put together social supports, that kind of thing. But how do you see society as better by having programs like this? Tamara (Tami) Shetron [00:25:08]: Yeah. That's a great question. So my dissertation research took a critical approach to this this topic, and I interviewed 9 program directors to find out how their prior experiences contributed to how they run the program. And the foundation and you had a guest on that a few I don't know how long ago that talked about this is Paulo Friere. Bonni Stachowiak [00:25:30]: Mhmm. Tamara (Tami) Shetron [00:25:30]: And, he's all about hope and dreaming and humanization, which is that the idea that all humans can grow and develop. We need to have all the people involved in society for society to really function as it should. It's not just that these students will grow and develop and and hopefully have the life that they want to live, which we want, instead of a life that someone else dictates to them. But the rest of society around them also need to learn to be supporting, and that is part of our growth and development and our humanization. So when we take away one segment of society and we say that for whatever reason, they aren't good enough, they don't need to be included, we're doing a disservice to all of society. So we all grow when we're all together. Bonni Stachowiak [00:26:25]: And since you brought up Paulo Friere, one of the other things was really so fundamental in his his work is to empower people. So what in what ways are these movements being inclusive, not just serving these individuals, but having these individuals be empowered to be able to direct this, this themselves, like, to have input and to facilitate change and that type of thing. Tamara (Tami) Shetron [00:26:53]: So so one of the thing again, I spoke earlier that it's hard to talk about this in a linear way. So I'm actually gonna go back to a best practice for these programs, and that is recognizing that these students may take longer to develop than a neurotypical student. So, you know, most college freshmen come in. They may be confused. They may be lost, and we expect them to kind of figure it out within a certain amount of time. Well, these students might take 2 years. And so if we cut them off before that, if we say, oh, it doesn't look like you're succeeding. Oh, you don't get this yet. Tamara (Tami) Shetron [00:27:30]: When we make those decisions for the student, then we're doing them a disservice. So we have our it's our 1st cohort this year. We have 5 students, and we have some that have just taken off running. They're just enjoying the classes. They've already decided to take extra classes that aren't even required. And we have some students that every time I see them, they're like, I don't understand why I even go to this class. I don't understand. And at the end of the day, instead of saying, well, maybe college isn't for you, we say, do you wanna be here? Because we will provide you whatever support you need to stay here. Tamara (Tami) Shetron [00:28:07]: But it is work, and there are classes that you might not like. And, eventually, you'll get to take the classes that you think you'll like, and you might not even like those classes because that's something that happens. It sounds good. Like, a candy bar wrapper looks good and shiny, and you get it. And you're like, that's not really what I thought it was gonna be. But it's not our decision for them. It's their decision for themself. I don't Bonni Stachowiak [00:28:30]: know if Tamara (Tami) Shetron [00:28:30]: I answered the question. Bonni Stachowiak [00:28:31]: No. I mean, it's an impossible question to answer, I think. So yeah. But Tamara (Tami) Shetron [00:28:35]: But just letting them, giving them the opportunity, including them, supporting in whatever way they need. We have one student who she can really probably pass any college course that's English or topical related, writing papers, things like that. She cannot find her way from one end of a building to another without getting lost. So we you know, that's okay. We will walk you to your next class if we need to every day ofyour college career, if that's the support you need. Bonni Stachowiak [00:29:08]: Before we transition to the recommendation segment, I wanna just let people know that we'll Dave, in the show notes, links for people who want to learn more information about these programs. Would you just share briefly about Think College as a one of the links that'll be there? And, also, I don't believe we've said the name of this yet, Bobcat Rise website. So people, as they go to look, what can they expect to find in those links? Tamara (Tami) Shetron [00:29:29]: Sure. So Think College is the national coordinating center that's funded by the Department of Education. This is the most comprehensive and robust website on this topic. They have an interactive map of the United States. You can click on your state, see all the programs that are in the state. You can use the search bar, search by disability, search by 2 year, 4 year, whatever search you want to look for. These programs are it's getting to the point where some students actually apply to 3 or 4 programs, and they travel around the country, and they're interviewing the programs now to see if it's the right fit for their student. They have a very robust resource section. Tamara (Tami) Shetron [00:30:12]: You can go in. They they keep all the research being done on these programs, and you can search that. You can search for employment, vocational rehabilitation, all different things you can search for. I just was on there before I came to this interview and noticed they actually have a link to programs in Europe now, which is new from the last time I looked. I thought that was interesting. Bonni Stachowiak [00:30:35]: Yeah. And then how about the Bobcat Rise website? What can people expect to find there? Tamara (Tami) Shetron [00:30:39]: Yeah. Bobcat Rise. So we're brand spanking new. I got hired a year ago to start this program, and we are an inclusive 4 year residential program, and you can read about the program requirements for students. There's a robust list of criteria for admittance. You can see I think there's a video of one of our information seminars that we held for interested parents a little while ago. There are, of course, other resources, donation buttons, of course. And, you can you know, if you're a student, you can sign up to be a volunteer there, you can read about our funders, things of that nature. Bonni Stachowiak [00:31:19]: Yeah. Lots of sources for drawing inspiration and to find out more information too. Well, this is the time in the show where we each get to share our recommendations, and I have 2. The first one, I I wanna I wanna recommend a particular type of attorney. Oh, okay. People who have been listening to the show for a long, long time may remember that I had a family member who sadly has since passed away. She passed away this year, but but we needed to see an attorney because we recognized some of the warning signs in terms of of Alzheimer's and all of that advancing itself. So we saw an elder law attorney, and I just didn't know that such a thing existed. Bonni Stachowiak [00:32:07]: And as of today's recording, we have just visited the same elder law attorney for other family members and wanting to to be thinking proactively about the next phases of different people's lives in my family. So I just for anybody, it's kinda one of those things where, Tami, I don't know if you've had this where we think that search is perfect, but search is only good if you know what you're looking for. Like, what what would I type into the search thing? So I just if if any of you are having challenges with that, there are specific types of attorneys who specialize in elder law, and I just wanted to recommend that. The one if anybody's in Orange County, California, would be happy to recommend this specific one that we have now used on a couple of different occasions, but just so wise, so kind, and that you were reminding me a little bit of her in terms of just slowing everybody down. That's I was joking with with the family driving back to our house a little bit ago of, like, wow. She's like a good blood pressure medicine to, like, slow everybody down just to be, like, like, you know, wanting to make sure that there's plenty of space for people to say what they want to say, and we're not gonna help that by rushing this conversation along. So it's just really good. So I wanted to mention, I guess, I just wanna recommend finding yourself a good elder law attorney and knowing that such things exist is really important. Bonni Stachowiak [00:33:27]: And then secondarily, seemingly unrelated, but to me, it's related, I wanted to recommend an article that my friend and colleague, Amy Wilmes, at my work had recommended, and it's thinking about cognition in instructional design. And this is by Alyssa Lawson. And I'll actually, for Tami, put it in the in the because I'm thinking this is perfect for you. You'll wanna you'll wanna check this out. So, I'm and all of you will be able to see this, of course, in the recommendations too. This is from Landmark College. And so what what the author, Alyssa, talks about here are things we've talked about on the podcast beep before, but things like cognitive load theory and cognitive theory of multimedia learning and extraneous load. And all all of this is just a good reminder, I guess, for us as we think about designing learning experiences. Bonni Stachowiak [00:34:23]: How do we reduce the and the article talks about extraneous processing. So I I can remember reading over long times when you like, you only wanna put a picture on a slide if the picture actually enhances what you wanna say. But if you're trying to put 14 pictures up there and you're expecting people's brains to process, that's not that's not how our brain works. So it's just a really good article and it has some examples of this is how this thing should look, don't have it look like this. And one example is the signaling principle, she has an example of, I don't know exactly what I'm supposed to look at in this one or what so it's it's really thinking through how do we design things well to minimize the cognitive load, but, also, not all cognitive load is bad. Because if you want them focusing on something, if you want their brains challenged by something, that's the good kind. Right? So it's not all bad, but we really wanna be using those things with intentionality. So we're challenging learners in the ways that are very helpful to be challenged in the learning process, but we're not doing that in superfluous ways such that we're challenged by the clutter and we can't figure out what's important to pay attention to here. Bonni Stachowiak [00:35:49]: That's the kind of cognitive load here. So and I don't know a lot about Landmark, but the colleague who sent into me says this is a very well known entity for neurodiverse inclusion and seemed like an appropriate time to be sharing this recommendation with you today, Tami. So are you familiar with with them? Tamara (Tami) Shetron [00:36:11]: The Landmark College. Yes. Yeah. Okay. Bonni Stachowiak [00:36:13]: Yeah. So, anyway, those are the 2 things I have to recommend, and I'll pass it over to you for whatever you'd like to recommend. Tamara (Tami) Shetron [00:36:19]: Yeah. So my first recommendation is a book called And No Birds Sing by an author called Pauline Leader. I found this book just trolling through my library one day. It just I just picked it out, and it turns out it's a very good book to understand disability from inside a person who becomes disabled, but before our modern times where we have the language we have today. This is a story of a young Jewish immigrant girl who lives in Bennington, Vermont of all places, and she grows up the youngest no. I don't think she's the youngest. She grows up. She's one of, like, 5 children in this kinda crazy immigrant family. Tamara (Tami) Shetron [00:37:07]: When she's about 12 or 13, she has a a serious illness, and when she wakes up, she's lost her hearing. And everyone's attitude towards her changes at that moment. And she's a very creative, think like Anne of Green Gables type gregarious, very just wants to see the world person. And now all of a sudden, everyone's saying she can't do anything. And she keeps saying throughout it, except for the people, I wouldn't be disabled, but for the people. And she ends up running away from home and going this is in the 19 twenties. She goes to Greenwich Village and hangs out with the, bohemians, and she becomes a poet, and she writes this book. It's a true story. Tamara (Tami) Shetron [00:37:52]: But all throughout it, the way she's describing her experience, and she couldn't get employment. She had to take the lowest paying jobs, and you just Dave such a heart for her and her experiences. But the language she uses is so rich, but without our modern terminology. No disability studies, no models of disability, no assistive anything. And it's just this young girl who becomes deaf, figuring out how to live the life she wants against all societies, the obstacles. So that's the first book I wanna recommend, And I actually used it. I taught a graduate class in special education this semester, and we read that book together and talked about all the different diversities that she had, being an immigrant from a different religious background, being female in a male dominated world, and then with a disability. And we had some really fascinating discussions when reading that book. Tamara (Tami) Shetron [00:38:50]: And the other one is a little more it's kind of similar, but it's the heaven and earth grocery store by James McBride. Have you It is. Bonni Stachowiak [00:38:58]: I came across it, and it is sitting on the the to be read stack. But, yeah, tell me more. Tell us more why we should read it. Tamara (Tami) Shetron [00:39:05]: Yeah. So I'm an Amtrak junkie, and I met this lovely on the Amtrak who live they're from Austin originally, and they live in Mexico now. And when they come to Austin, they visit me, and they they often bring me books. So they brought me this book. And, James McBride is from a very large family. If you read his book, The Color of Water, perhaps Mhmm. Talks about his mother and, again, a Jewish woman. She grew up the daughter of a rabbi in the South. Tamara (Tami) Shetron [00:39:35]: And she became a Christian and moved to Harlem, New York and married a black preacher, and they had all these children, and she had a second marriage with more children. And it's a true story. And her son, James McBride, all her kids became doctors, lawyers, things. They all got really good careers. So the color of water is about that story, but this is kind of a mishmash of diverse cultures in a little town, a little steel a town that becomes a steel town in Pennsylvania. And it's just about there's a disability theme in it. There's diversity. There's different socioeconomic levels all woven into this beautiful story that makes you cry and makes you, you know, all the feels. Tamara (Tami) Shetron [00:40:20]: Mhmm. So I don't wanna give anything away, so I'm gonna leave it at that. Bonni Stachowiak [00:40:24]: Yeah. In the podcast interview I did earlier today, I had one of those books where I was like, I don't wanna tell you anything about it because I don't wanna read any of the surprises, but just trust me, you should read it. I so get that. Well, this has been such a joy to get to know you a little bit and to hear from you and learn from you and see the ways in which those of us that have programs like this nearby us might be able to support that work or or join in it in some tangible ways. And then also just what kinds of themes can we draw into our own inclusive practices. And just thank you for everything that you've contributed in today's conversation. And I feel like personally that you've just lit a spark in me to be curious about a new area that I know so little about. So thank you for all of that today, Tami. Bonni Stachowiak [00:41:07]: Great. Tamara (Tami) Shetron [00:41:07]: Thanks for having me. I appreciate it. Bonni Stachowiak [00:41:12]: Thanks once again to Tami Shetron for joining me for today's episode of teaching in higher ed. If you've been listening for a while and haven't signed up for my weekly update, you're missing out on the most recent episodes show notes as well as some other recommendations and resources that don't show up on those regular show note pages. So head on over to teachinginhighered.com/subscribe so you can begin receiving those. And thank you so much for listening to the podcast and being a part of the community. I'll see you next time on Teaching in Higher Ed.